November 18, 2025 • 32 mins
In this episode, we explore how principals can effectively support teachers through the professional growth cycle – moving beyond the old appraisal system to create meaningful, growth-focused practice. Our guests share practical strategies for using data effectively, fostering professional curiosity, and creating systems that support teachers before challenges become competency concerns.
Hosted by Eleisha McNeill.
Our guests are:
- Rose-Anne London from the Teaching Council
- Stephanie Thompson, principal of Beachhaven School in Auckland
- Isaac Day, former tumuaki and leadership advisor in Nelson/Tasman
Additional information
Teaching Council https://teachingcouncil.nz/professional-practice/professional-growth-cycle/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eleisha (00:08):
Kia ora, and welcome to The Principals, a podcast series
for new and aspiring tumauki inAotearoa New Zealand. I'm
Eleisha McNeill. Today we'retalking about supporting kaiako
through their professionalgrowth cycle learning, and we've
got a lot to talk about, sowe'll crack straight in with
introductions.
Rose-Anne (00:26):
Sure. Tēnā koutou katoa. Ko Ahumairangi te maunga,
ko te Whanganui-a-Tara te whanga.Ko Pipitia te marae, no Te
Ātuawa te mana whenua. KoMatatū Aotearoa te wahi mahi.
Ko Rose-Anne London tōko ingoa,ko au tētahi o ngā tohutohu
mātua mō te MatatūAotearoa. Tēnā koutou,
(00:47):
tēnā koutou, tēnā koutoukatoa. My name is Rose-Anne and
I'm a Senior Advisor at theTeaching Council, working in our
Relationships and Engagementteam.
Isaac (00:56):
Kia ora ano, ko Isaac tenei, ko Wharepapa te maunga,
ko Motueka te awa, ko TeTai-o-Aorere, the beautiful
Tasman region's where I live andI am leadership advisor for the
Nelson, Marlborough and WestCoast regions.
Stephanie (01:09):
Ah, Tēnā koutou, I haramai aku Koroua, kuia Mai
Ingarangi, ko Mataura te Whenuatupu, ko Tamaki Makaurau te
Kaiinga Inaianei, ko au tetumuaki o Te Kura o Oruamo ko
Stephanie Thompson taku ingoa.Kia ora, my name is Stephanie, I
am the tumuaki at Beach HavenPrimary on the beautiful North
(01:30):
Shore and excited to be heretoday.
Eleisha (01:33):
Thank you. Um, Roseanne, if we can start with the basics,
can you break down what theprofessional growth cycle for
teachers looks like now? Andwhat a principal does
differently now compared to theold appraisal days?
Rose-Anne (01:47):
Yeah, sure. So it all starts what we call element A,
and that's about building acommon understanding of what the
standards look like in yoursetting, what meeting them looks
like, and what using them lookslike. For many schools, this is
referred to as a qualitypractice document. Following
that, the cycle is planned out,including feedback, observation,
(02:08):
and professional learning.Another difference is that
principals now need to confirmannually that a teacher has
taken part in a professionalgrowth cycle and that they're
meeting or likely to meet thestandards, and that's depending
on the sort of practicingcertificate they hold
Eleisha (02:25):
Hmm.
Rose-Anne (02:25):
Which is different to what we used to do with
three-yearly endorsement. Nowprincipals need to confirm
annually and it's part of thecycle. Another big shift from
the old appraisal system is thatit's not a Teaching Council
requirement that teachers gatherformal evidence of each of the
standards. So gone are the dayswhere the Teaching Council
(02:47):
required teachers to gather saybanana boxes full of evidence
just to prove that they'remeeting the standards.
Eleisha (02:54):
That's got to be a good thing. Um, Stephanie, what does
that look like in practice whenyou're working with your kaiako
day to day?
Stephanie (03:01):
At Beach Haven, what that looks like in practice is a,
it's a mix of things. So, wehave a coaching methodology that
runs through our kura, whereevery teacher has is either a
coach in a coach and coacheerelationship. And for us, that
means that part of that coachingcycle builds into the
professional learningdevelopment that our teachers
(03:22):
are involved in, and that's amix of executive and
instructional coaching. We havea learning talk framework that
we use in our teams and thelearning talk framework is
similar to a coaching model inthat what they're looking at is
their data, the impact of whatthey're doing in their classroom
(03:43):
and they set some goals aroundwhat they might do to improve
that, and in practice for us,it's a lot of reflection on what
they're doing in their classroom,and how does it impact on the
students both well-being andacademic and all of the
wonderful things. And often,there's a culturally responsive
lens or pedagogy that runsthrough that. And to help our
(04:05):
teachers with that, we have amath support teacher, a literacy
support teacher and a kaupapaMāori support teacher that sit
as mentors and coaches tosupport teachers in that place.
Eleisha (04:17):
That's awesome. Isaac.
Isaac (04:19):
Kia ora, Stephanie, I love that. I think for me in
practise leading thatprofessional growth cycle's
about being present andintentional in your everyday
interactions. So this extendsbeyond just, you know, classroom
observations or videoing orcoaching sessions, it's about
those ongoing conversations, theones that happen in the staff
room, the check-ins you're doingafter you've just been in a
(04:39):
classroom, whatever it may be,it's the way you're responding
to those challenges in practicetogether. I think that's the,
for me, that's the essence ofthe growth cycle. And as a
tumuaki, I try to stay curiousabout what each kaiako is
working on. Yeah you've got tohold a lot in your mind as a
tumuaki, but it's also veryimportant to understand and, you
(05:01):
know, know, hey, look, thisteacher's been working on an
engagement in their class. Youknow, what I know about that?
How can I listen to what they'vegot to say? So those everyday
interactions are crucial. And ofcourse, making sure it's a
living process, Rose-Annementioned before, you don't need
a banana box of evidence anymore.So that helps it become a more
living process and less socompliance or a top-down sort of
(05:25):
task that you must complete.Weaving that professional
learning into the fabric of yourdaily work, I think, is probably
a way I'd like to look at Andwhen it's done well, I can
create really good equity foryour ākonga. It can create that
consistency of practice acrossyour classrooms.
Eleisha (05:40):
Hmm. Yeah. That's awesome. And, um, Stephanie,
Isaac just mentioned, you know,making it more than an
obligation, more like anopportunity. How do you make
sure that that happens in yourkura?
Stephanie (05:50):
So the philosophy we run with is it's done with, not
done to.
Eleisha (05:55):
Hm.
Stephanie (05:55):
And if we think about how we give students agency,
then our teachers also need tohave agency about their voice,
choice and ownership around thethings they, that they're
working on. And we need to helpbuild their capability and
capacity to be able to look attheir data and decide actually
what kind of decisions do I, asthe professional, need to make
for the students in front of me.And I think for us too it's a
(06:19):
mix of the goal setting, theobservation, feedback,
reflection, and it's not aone-way street.
Eleisha (06:25):
Hm.
Stephanie (06:25):
It isn't someone coming in and saying, 'Oh,
you're not doing this right',it's about walking beside
someone to build that capabilityand capacity because at the end
of the day, this is about ourtamariki. And the more support
you provide your kaiako, thebetter it is for the kids in
those teachers' classrooms. Soif we think about it like being
(06:46):
data-informed but not punitive,and it's about supporting
teachers,not just about judgingperformance because performance
could, like, that's reallyfickle, could walk to any
classroom on any given day andsee something that might be a
little worrying. But you don'tknow what the context does,
whereas if it's a really genuineprocess, where we're looking at
(07:06):
building capability and capacitythat those sorts of arbitrary
decisions don't happen becauseyou've got this built-up picture
and it is about beingsolutions-focused,
Eleisha (07:17):
Hm.
Stephanie (07:17):
and 'What do we need to do together?' 'Cause when
we're in that waka together,it'll go faster.
Eleisha (07:24):
Yeah, absolutely. And you alluded there, you know,
that, that this is all about thetamariki in your kura. So, how
do you make sure that youconnect the PGC back to outcomes
for your students, so growthisn't just teacher-focused, but
it's focused on those kids.
Stephanie (07:39):
And I think there's two parts to that For me, so
there's the soft and the harddata. So there's the summative
and formative data, the actualdata that you have on students'
academics. But there's alsowhat's happening for the social,
emotional, cultural and physicalwell-being of students. So it's
about being able to look at allthe different types of data that
we have and seeing what impactyou are having on that group of
(08:04):
students or that individualstudents. And for those kids who
are always going to have astruggling time in their
educational journey, it's aboutvalue-added. And sometimes
value-added might not be greatjumps in reading, writing or
maths, it might actually be intheir relationships with others
or it might be something amazingthey've So I think it isn't a
(08:26):
black and white picture in termsof the impact you make in the
classroom. And I mean, there'slots of literature, lots of
research on knowing thine impact.But as a school, and I think
Isaac you alluded to this beforeabout unpacking that, knowing
what it is that you're lookingfor in your kura, what you value
and and your context reallymatters. So at Beach Haven,
(08:49):
looking closely at attendancedata and not just the raw data,
but actually what's the contextthat sits behind each of those,
each of those numbers has a face,and being able to go, ah,
there's a bigger story, there'sa bigger picture here. And I
guess before when I was talkingabout growing capability and
capacity, that's what I mean interms of our teaching and middle
(09:11):
and senior leadership teams,understanding how to use data in
a way that grows that capabilityto support students in the
classroom.
Eleisha (09:19):
Awesome. Isaac, what would you add to that?
Isaac (09:21):
I tautoko everything Stephanie's said there. I'll go
back to the concept of beingcurious. And I think for me, if
we're curious, curiosity isinfectious. You know, you see
that curious kid, you see thosecurious teachers. It can be
infectious. And I think you haveto lead that as tumuaki. You've
got to be the lead curiousperson. And to be curious, you
(09:41):
need data, you need evidence,you need all sorts of things to
back you up. So I completelytautoko what Stephanie said
about that. I like what JimKnight says about building a
clear picture of reality. Ithink that's crucial in this
sort of situation because me asthe teacher, I might think I'm
really good at this, but as, youknow, and that's subjective,
that's just my view of things. Ineed something, something else
(10:01):
to help me build that clearpicture of reality. And Jim
Knight talks about a whole lotof ways of collecting data. You
have observational checklists.You've got videos. You've got
reflective prompts where you'relooking at your own teaching and
what the kids are doing. And atEnner Glynn school, we developed
some tools to support us so thatkaiako could look at what they
were doing, could look at whatthe students were doing, and
(10:21):
then, you know, we'd haveengagement surveys as a result
and all sorts of things. So youcould find out what was actually
happening for the students. Youhave to, you know, as you
mentioned before Eleisha, atleast it has to be connected to
the kids. Professional growthcycle encompasses a lot of
things. It encompasses thosestandards, which are important
for us as a profession. But it's,as Stephanie mentioned, it's
about what you're doing in yourschool, in your kura, making it
(10:42):
real, student voice data. Whenyou're going into a coaching or
mentoring conversation, you know,a basic question, and this was
mentioned in a previous podcastby Dr. Jan Robinson. You know,
on a scale of 1-10, 1 being theworst, 10 being the best, how
did the lesson go for you? Andthen you follow it up with, you
know, okay, so you said it was a7. What would move it to a 10?
(11:03):
And those are simpleconversations that can be quite
rich and quite deep when you'relooking at, and you've gone
through that data as Stephaniesaid, and you've looked at
what's happening for thestudents, what's happening in
your teaching. So yeah, but thatclear picture of reality.
Staying curious will help youmake sure you're connecting the
growth cycle to your students.
Eleisha (11:20):
And Rose-Anne, I saw you nodding along there.
Rose-Anne (11:22):
I just like the supporting teachers to be able
to self-reflect and self-reflecton how they think that their
lesson went and what they coulddo differently, and how it puts
the lens of what they can dodifferently rather than what
didn't go well or what was bad,you know. I just like the whole
framework with it.
Eleisha (11:40):
Yeah.
Stephanie (11:41):
Can I jump in to just to back up what Isaac was saying
about student voice, man, thatis the, if there was one thing
that just is transformational interms of turning around what's
happening in a classroom, it isstudent voice. So I'll give you
an example. At our place, Icollect the writing because
that's my jam. And, um, and I'llget a group of kids, a cross
(12:02):
section of a class, ask themsome questions like, simple
things like, show me a piece ofwriting you're proud of, and
tell me why you're proud of it.And then we have a series of
questions from everything from doesyour teacher like writing, tell
me how you know. And what areyou working on at the moment?
And depending on the answers,it's really enlightening. It'll
tell me more in a half an hourconversation with the group of
(12:24):
kids it will tell me more aboutwhat's happening in a writing
program, fo example, than what Icould see in a quick observation,
and it's really interestingbecause when the kids talk about
what's happening in a classroom,and then you feed that back to
teachers, teachers are like, oh,I didn't realise they didn't
understand that's what they'remeant to be doing. And so the
change in practice becomessomething they own that they
(12:46):
then work with their kids on. Soyour student voice is super
powerful. An that would be, ifthat's the biggest takeout that
people have today is don'tunderestimate the power of that.
And it's a gentle done-with kindof thing. So, um, yeah,
definitely that. And the otherthing I would back up is what
you said about Jim Knight. Hiswork on instructional coaching
is phenomenal. And if you get achance to listen to him, and how
(13:10):
you can integrate instructionalcoaching, that's fabulous as
well
Eleisha (13:13):
Awesome. Thank you. Um, so you have all talked about
gathering all that information,the student voice data, all of
those things. So in yourinteractions with teachers is
that what you use to help themset their objectives so they're
really meaningful for the kidsin the kura. Isaac.
Isaac (13:32):
Yes, absolutely. You know, staying curious, We've already
mentioned Jim Knight, let's godown another path here and talk
about Russell Bishop's GPILSEOframework. Now, if you haven't
"Leading to the North East", youneed to, as a tumuaki, you need
to get your nose into that book.
Eleisha (13:46):
We've got him on shortly.
Isaac (13:47):
Oh brilliant, that's fantastic. But those
collaborative tools, you know,Stephanie mentioned before, it's
not just about your relationshipwith the teacher. It's about a
whole group around and workingtogether around those problems
of practice because there's alot of expertise on your staff.
Eleisha (14:04):
Hmm.
Isaac (14:04):
You know, your teacher may have collected some data
around, you know, or developed atheory in their own teaching
potentially, hey look, I, I'mstruggling to engage these
students. Well, there's, there'sa brilliant hook for your, for
your growth cycle. Start beingcurious, well, what engagement
strategies have I tried? Well,how have they worked? You know,
gather some information, getsome insights into that, and
then look at those, uh, thoseconversations you have with your
(14:27):
mentors, your peers, yourcolleagues And potentially you
might find it could be achallenge across a number of
classrooms, in which case thatbecomes a great hook for your
problem of practice. You know,you can have an inquiry that's
based on your learning, butyou're doing it alongside others,
Eleisha (14:41):
Hm.
Isaac (14:41):
um, so I think that data is, is crucial in, in enabling
you to build your theories,those theories in your practice,
that you'd like to change oraddress, and work from there for
sure.
Eleisha (14:52):
Stephanie, Ro, do you have anything to add
Stephanie (14:54):
I would just absolutely agree with what
Isaac's just said. I love thatnotion of curiosity and and
being professionally curious.Like if something's not working
you want to ask yourself why andwhat am I going to do about it
and who can help me on thatjourney and I think if we help
our teachers understand that itis a journey and that it's going
(15:14):
to, it's like a roller coasterreally and so there's times
where it's going to be reallyawesome and other times it's
like oh my goodness what am Idoing here and being
professionally curious about howcome that group aren't moving
the way I want them to do, whyis this behavior a constant
thing happening in my classroom,who can come in and help me, do
I need someone to observe me, doI need to see someone in action
(15:37):
solving that problem, andlearning talk framework helps
teams go through those commonareas and Isaac said before the
problems of practice you don'tknow what you don't know
Eleisha (15:48):
there? Hm.
Stephanie (15:48):
and when you're listening to colleagues go and
they all bring say their writingbooks or whatever's happening in
maths and go I, you know I can'tget past this point I don't know
why these kids won't doparagraphs or I don't know why,
whatever's happening, and whenyou can share your common common
frustrations and where you'rehitting the wall and and also
(16:08):
celebrate where things areworking great and I think when
you can collaborate and talk asa group of and on that
collective efficacy where we'reall on this together and unpack
those problems of practicetogether, it; s that old adage
of a problem shared is a problemhalved, But what teachers they
get all excited about oh man Inever thought about doing that,
(16:29):
then they set some goals andthey come back to it a few weeks
later in their team and go youknow so Eleisha tell me how you
went with that issue with theparagraphing or the behaviour or
whatever's going on and thosekinds of conversations are
really exciting because whatteachers are doing is they are
working above the line,
Eleisha (16:47):
Hm.
Stephanie (16:47):
they' looking, they're not blaming, they're not
putting an issue in theirclassroom, they're not blaming
the child or the parent or thesociety or whatever, they're
taking accountability andsetting a goal and going you
know actually this is my job asthe teacher to figure this out.
It's awesome it's very exciting.
Isaac (17:02):
It's an excellent point you make there Stephanie because
if you're going back to yourdata and you've determined what
gains you're making to thestudents to the ākonga, that
creates collective among yourstaff and that's a real powerful
motivator for your teachers.Really really good point yeah
tautoko that one as well, kiaora.
Stephanie (17:18):
Because I think actually success breeds success
right, and think sometimes maybewe tiptoe around some of the
scary stuff or we we don't wantto get into a conflict with
someone but actually, we'readults, we have to have robust
conversations about if somethingisn't working how come, and what
are we gonna do about it andthere's no point getting caught
(17:39):
up in the weeds around oh weused to do it like this we do
whatever, we're here right nowwith this current cohort of kids,
what's happening, what can we doabout it and I'm not gonna cry
about yesterday we need to nowwork for today for tomorrow
right, and it's so easy to saythat isn't it because I know
that sometimes you get it theget the odd person who might be
(17:59):
dragging their heels but
Eleisha (18:00):
Hm.
Stephanie (18:01):
once people see that success start to fly and that's
why we are educators right it'sthe coolest thing when our kids
are overcoming these challengesbecause you know you can go home
each night and go I made adifference today.
Eleisha (18:14):
Hm. Hmm. Hm. Hm. Yeah.
Stephanie (18:15):
I guess as tumuaki it's almost like you're the
conductor of that orchestra andand as tumuaki we also need to
go actually what didn't go sowell today which is part of our
own professional growth cycle,being able to nut those problems
of practice out with your owngroup and is really valuable so
(18:35):
it's not just a done-to or donewith process with our staff, we
are involved in that too.
Eleisha (18:40):
Absolutely. You talked there helping your teachers, can
you share an example of howyou've helped a teacher through
a challenging phase in theirprofessional growth journey?
Isaac (18:51):
I go back to the engagement, there's one that
sticks out very clearly in myhead working with a kaiako, this
is a bit prior to becoming atumuaki. And my specialism was
in, was in formative practice,formative assessment. And this
particular kaiako was strugglingwith engaging the students. So
we, we went through a processrather than jumping to solutions,
we started with listening,trying to understand what was
(19:12):
going on for the students, beingopen to multiple theories from
the teacher. Stephanie mentionedbefore about deficit. Well, the
thing about thinking in thedeficit about student challenges
is that you're not going to fixthose because the problem sits
with the student if you've, youknow, theorising in the deficit.
So we had to think agetically,you know, what, what is it that
I could do to impact the, theengagement. So we, we
(19:34):
constructed us a small inquiryfocused on those formative
practices, um, it was where Icould add value and support the
kaiako at the time. We usedvoice, we gathered some
baselines in terms of, of howengaged students were and, and I
could, I supported by doing awee observation and, and giving
a little bit of a viewpoint onit, the teacher was very open to
learning, which is reallyimportant, the trust in the
(19:55):
relationship has to be right inthese sort of situations. over
time, the teacher trialled acouple of formative approaches.
You know, they didn't all work.Um, but they, they trialled one
and it worked. She saw a shiftand it built her confidence and,
and that one was a really goodone for me as a, as a, a deputy
principal at the time, becausethat particular person developed
a an aspiration for leadershipthrough their influence over
(20:17):
their colleagues, particularlyaround the formative practices
she was using in assessment. Andit started to impact those other
teachers as well. She became aninfluential leader in those
school, in our school, and then,but also across other schools.
The key for me to remember, Ithink was that I was walking
alongside them. I wasn't doingit for them. I wasn't, but I was
walking alongside them andsupporting with learning and
that's the same approach I'vetaken as a tumuaki. That one
(20:40):
particularly stands out becausewe spent a lot of time on that
one and it was, it was quite, uh,the word used before was
transformation was quitetransformational for both of us,
not just for that teacher.
Eleisha (20:50):
Hm. That's very cool. Rose-Anne, what are the most
common challenges the Councilsees kaiako face during their
professional growth cycle and,and what do you recommend?
Rose-Anne (21:00):
Look, this is quite interesting because often
challenges with the professionalgrowth cycle only come to light
for us when there are competenceconcerns. And that's actually
quite late in the piece. Andideally we want to be, we want
teachers to be supported wellbefore it gets to that point.
One of the things that we thinkis really, really useful and
really, really valuable is thata really clear and robust common
(21:25):
understanding of the standardsand how they are enacted and
used in your school.
Eleisha (21:30):
Hm
Rose-Anne (21:30):
So if all the teachers know actually this is
what's expected of me to beenacting the standards in this
school, then that goes a longway towards supporting them to
be able to be meeting thestandards. The other thing that
we think's really useful is tomake sure that the standards are
discussed, they're talked about,they're integrated throughout
the professional growth cycle,so throughout professional
(21:53):
learning and observation ofpractice and feedback, making
sure that the standards arealive through those discussions.
That helps teachers get a reallygood understanding of what's
expected of them. And for theprincipal to understand the
teacher's perspective as welland to be able to work together
(22:13):
to support the teacher to bemeeting the standards as
expected.
Eleisha (22:17):
Which it sounds like Stephanie and Isaac, you both do
very well. Um, but what do youdo if you as the principal,
don't think that one of yourteachers is meeting the standard,
Stephanie.
Stephanie (22:28):
It, it is about systems, structures and
processes and just listening toRose-Anne there, one, a really
neat thing to do as a school isto take the code of professional
responsibility, there's a reallygood resource that's examples in
practice that the Teachers'Council have online.
Eleisha (22:50):
Hm.
Stephanie (22:50):
And it talks about this is what it looks like when
you're meeting the code. This iswhat it looks like when you're
not. It's fabulous. Take that,and do your own version for your
own kura. So we've got a sethere at Beach Haven, is this is
what it looks like when we aremeeting this and doesn't look
like. And here's how our agreedpractices are, and, Isaac,
(23:13):
talked a bit about this at thevery beginning, around how
important unpacking this is foryou. And the system structures
and process should someone havea speed wobble and fall off
their bike, those are reallyimportant because you need to
get there before it becomes aproblem. And if you have good
(23:33):
systems that involve feedback,feed forward, the coaching,
mentoring and what happenswithin teams and the use of data,
all those things are reallyrobust, it shouldn't get to the
point where someone needs toreach competency because you are
already there. And you arealready supporting people who
can have a bit of a speed wobble,whether it's because something's
(23:55):
happening outside of school orbecause the cohort is really
hard and whatever's happening inthere and they might need some
more PLD to strengthen an areathat they haven't need to
exercise for a bit. So I wouldsay that if we could just get in
there early enough, we wouldavoid most of the problems
around competency. And the otherpiece of advice I have to our
(24:17):
colleagues, is if you do need toget to competency that process
needs to be super robust andworking with union and school
boards and make sure that you dothat properly and respectfully,
and with some bravery. Becauseit isn't okay to ignore it.
Eleisha (24:36):
Hm. H. Yeah. Isaac, you agree?
Isaac (24:37):
100% agree, um, prevention is the best medicine.
And as I Stephanie justmentioned, competency is not a
process that anyone comes out ofwith great mana. And it's a very,
very challenging process,particularly if it's as
Rose-Anne mentioned, if it'sleapt into too late. So yeah,
those processes are hugelyimportant, the relationship, the
(24:58):
conversations, building of thatefficacy, so the teachers can
see that they're impacting thekids. They're all ways and means
that you can make sure that thecompetency is high. I love my
mantras. One of them is clarityproceeds competence. Now I don't
mean competence terms of beingcompetent as a teacher, I mean,
clarity is important if you'regoing to be competent
(25:19):
implementing something. In thiscase, clarity around the
professional growth cycle andthose professional standards is
crucial. You build that clarityas a tumuaki. But your role as
tumuaki is to is to ensurequality teaching is happening in
your classrooms across yourclassrooms, that's your role.
And you have to be proactive inthat space, you have to be
intentional in that space. youdo take your eye off that ball
(25:40):
or if that intention is draggedaway by other things or other
distractions, then you are goingyourself up to the challenge of
the difficult conversations withyour teachers, rather than the
learning and the positives andthe fabulous things that are
happening in your classrooms, ifyou don't pay attention to it
and those things fall away, thento a point, and I don't want
(26:02):
make anyone feel stink orterrible here, to a point you're
neglecting your responsibilitiesto your tamariki, to your kaiako
and to your community.
Eleisha (26:11):
Hm. Hm. Yeah. Roseanne.
Rose-Anne (26:13):
What I'm going to say is going to relate a lot to what
Stephanie and Isaac have alreadysaid. I think first thing is to
make sure that the teacher knowsthat you've got some concerns
about their practice. We oftenfind that that is missed or that
the teacher says to us, "Ididn't know they didn't think I
was meeting that standard." Sothat could be discussing it with
that teacher or Isaac talkedearlier about evidence, the role
(26:35):
of evidence and things like that.As a principal, you might need
to gather some evidence to helpthat teacher see what you were
seeing or what you were notseeing and things like that. So
Eleisha (26:46):
Hm.
Rose-Anne (26:46):
making sure that that teacher understands your
perspective on their practiceand then putting supports in
place to help them be meetingthe standards and to be
achieving what you expect ofthem. Yeah, I think those are
really important steps aresometimes missed. And as
Stephanie mentioned earlier,being brave in that space so
(27:07):
that you can say nip it in thebud before it becomes a big
thing. Then if sufficientprogress isn't made, then you
need to go down thoseperformance management processes.
Eleisha (27:18):
Rose-Anne, the Teaching Council's resourses and
standards, how can principalsuse them to their teachers, um,
professional development, partnew principals, I would say.
Rose-Anne (27:28):
So the teaching council's currently, uh,
updating our professional growthcycle resources to align with
the 2026 standards. And we'reworking with group of principals
and early learning leaders aswell across all sectors to
represent and to develop orcraft these resources in a way
(27:50):
that they can test it in theirservices and their schools as
well to make sure that whatwe're, um, sharing is actually
workable. I think the 2026standards gives a really good
opportunity to review andreflect on, uh, professional
growth cycle design and toreflect on your design in
relation to the principles andthe intent of the professional
(28:12):
growth cycle, so making surethere is that high trust
approach that it's collaborative,th it's meeting the needs of
teachers, that it's reducing theburden of compliance that we had
before, uh, focusing on growthand valuing what works and what
works well for the particularsituation for the setting and
(28:34):
also for the individual teacher,knowing that, an example's that
some teachers might like to talktheir reflections, some teachers
might like to write them andothers work best with thinking
them, but working withindividual styles as well. So,
Eleisha (28:48):
Hm.
Rose-Anne (28:48):
yeah, using the 2026 standards and the refreshed
resources that are coming toreview and reflect on your
processes in relation to theintent and the principles of
professional growth cycle.
Eleisha (29:00):
And finally, what would your advice be for principals
who are supporting their kaiakothrough their professional
growth cycle learning?
Isaac (29:10):
I think it's really important to remember as tumuaki,
your role is to hold some ofthat space for growth. Don't
rush things, do it well, bepatient, celebrate small wins,
keep the focus on outcomes forthe ākonga, lead with that
empathy and intentionality thatwe've described. I think the
professional growth cycle canbecome a real, powerful lever
(29:30):
for transformation in yourschool if you do it well. Build
that clarity on the professionalgrowth cycle, what does it look
like in your setting, buildingon what Rose-Anne said? How does
it involve others in meaningfulways? How do you know it's
working? So that's pull thatevidence. How do you know your
current cycle is working andwhat are you doing if it's not
or alternatively what are youdoing if it's going really well?
Eleisha (29:51):
Hmm,
Isaac (29:51):
And that last part is don't sit on your laurels, don't
just let it happen, beintentional about it again.
Stephanie (29:57):
For me, system structures and processes. Made
so you're really clear aboutknowing you why? Like, why are
we doing this? What's thebenefit and having your teachers
part of that so that it's notthis arbitrary decision that
you've made or a system you putin place. But actually, where
was the teacher agency indeveloping what works for your
school, for your context, foryour tamariki, and if we have
(30:21):
teachers involved in thedevelopment of that and the
review of that. You know, to besustainable in that space, you
need to review it. You need tolook at it and go, is this fit
for purpose? So ongoing selfreviews are really important.
It's really important that yourprofessional growth cycle links
back to your strategic andannual plan, and your goals. You
(30:44):
wouldn't put some arbitrary PLDin place, just cause. It should
link back to what it is you'retrying to achieve, which is also
based on your school's data. Soif things are aligned, then that
makes participating in this nota chore but something that
actually is really purposeful.
Eleisha (31:02):
Thank Rosanne?
Rose-Anne (31:03):
so I think focusing on building that reflective, um,
curious culture among yourteachers so that, they feel
comfortable to say, hey, thiswent well or this could have
been better and things like that.And, might, that might take role
modeling, some vulnerability andcuriosity into your own practice,
but creating that would, wouldgo a long way. Another place is
(31:28):
that strengthening of theteachers understanding of what
the standards look like in yourplace and I keep saying that,
but I think it is really, reallyimportant. And then keeping the
standards visible and I don'tmean visible with necessarily
visible with your eyes butknowing and talking about the
standards throughout yourprofessional growth cycle
(31:48):
throughout the year, don't waituntil the end of the year when
you're doing your annual summarystatements, don't wait until
it's time to endorse apracticing certificate but keep
them alive throughout the year,throughout teachers practice, um,
throughout their learning anddevelopment.
Eleisha (32:03):
Wow, some amazing advice there. Thank you all so
much for your time today. Ireally appreciate
Stephanie (32:07):
Kia
Eleisha (32:08):
it.
Stephanie (32:08):
ora. Kia ora. Kia
Eleisha (32:10):
See ya, thanks. In the next episode, Mārama talks to
rural principals aboutovercoming isolation in rural
schools. Mā te wā.
Kia ora, and welcome to The Principals, a podcast series
for new and aspiring tumauki inAotearoa New Zealand. I'm
Eleisha McNeill. Today we'retalking about supporting kaiako
through their professionalgrowth cycle learning, and we've
got a lot to talk about, sowe'll crack straight in with
introductions.
Rose-Anne (00:26):
Sure. Tēnā koutou katoa. Ko Ahumairangi te maunga,
ko te Whanganui-a-Tara te whanga.Ko Pipitia te marae, no Te
Ātuawa te mana whenua. KoMatatū Aotearoa te wahi mahi.
Ko Rose-Anne London tōko ingoa,ko au tētahi o ngā tohutohu
mātua mō te MatatūAotearoa. Tēnā koutou,
(00:47):
tēnā koutou, tēnā koutoukatoa. My name is Rose-Anne and
I'm a Senior Advisor at theTeaching Council, working in our
Relationships and Engagementteam.
Isaac (00:56):
Kia ora ano, ko Isaac tenei, ko Wharepapa te maunga,
ko Motueka te awa, ko TeTai-o-Aorere, the beautiful
Tasman region's where I live andI am leadership advisor for the
Nelson, Marlborough and WestCoast regions.
Stephanie (01:09):
Ah, Tēnā koutou, I haramai aku Koroua, kuia Mai
Ingarangi, ko Mataura te Whenuatupu, ko Tamaki Makaurau te
Kaiinga Inaianei, ko au tetumuaki o Te Kura o Oruamo ko
Stephanie Thompson taku ingoa.Kia ora, my name is Stephanie, I
am the tumuaki at Beach HavenPrimary on the beautiful North
(01:30):
Shore and excited to be heretoday.
Eleisha (01:33):
Thank you. Um, Roseanne, if we can start with the basics,
can you break down what theprofessional growth cycle for
teachers looks like now? Andwhat a principal does
differently now compared to theold appraisal days?
Rose-Anne (01:47):
Yeah, sure. So it all starts what we call element A,
and that's about building acommon understanding of what the
standards look like in yoursetting, what meeting them looks
like, and what using them lookslike. For many schools, this is
referred to as a qualitypractice document. Following
that, the cycle is planned out,including feedback, observation,
(02:08):
and professional learning.Another difference is that
principals now need to confirmannually that a teacher has
taken part in a professionalgrowth cycle and that they're
meeting or likely to meet thestandards, and that's depending
on the sort of practicingcertificate they hold
Eleisha (02:25):
Hmm.
Rose-Anne (02:25):
Which is different to what we used to do with
three-yearly endorsement. Nowprincipals need to confirm
annually and it's part of thecycle. Another big shift from
the old appraisal system is thatit's not a Teaching Council
requirement that teachers gatherformal evidence of each of the
standards. So gone are the dayswhere the Teaching Council
(02:47):
required teachers to gather saybanana boxes full of evidence
just to prove that they'remeeting the standards.
Eleisha (02:54):
That's got to be a good thing. Um, Stephanie, what does
that look like in practice whenyou're working with your kaiako
day to day?
Stephanie (03:01):
At Beach Haven, what that looks like in practice is a,
it's a mix of things. So, wehave a coaching methodology that
runs through our kura, whereevery teacher has is either a
coach in a coach and coacheerelationship. And for us, that
means that part of that coachingcycle builds into the
professional learningdevelopment that our teachers
(03:22):
are involved in, and that's amix of executive and
instructional coaching. We havea learning talk framework that
we use in our teams and thelearning talk framework is
similar to a coaching model inthat what they're looking at is
their data, the impact of whatthey're doing in their classroom
(03:43):
and they set some goals aroundwhat they might do to improve
that, and in practice for us,it's a lot of reflection on what
they're doing in their classroom,and how does it impact on the
students both well-being andacademic and all of the
wonderful things. And often,there's a culturally responsive
lens or pedagogy that runsthrough that. And to help our
(04:05):
teachers with that, we have amath support teacher, a literacy
support teacher and a kaupapaMāori support teacher that sit
as mentors and coaches tosupport teachers in that place.
Eleisha (04:17):
That's awesome. Isaac.
Isaac (04:19):
Kia ora, Stephanie, I love that. I think for me in
practise leading thatprofessional growth cycle's
about being present andintentional in your everyday
interactions. So this extendsbeyond just, you know, classroom
observations or videoing orcoaching sessions, it's about
those ongoing conversations, theones that happen in the staff
room, the check-ins you're doingafter you've just been in a
(04:39):
classroom, whatever it may be,it's the way you're responding
to those challenges in practicetogether. I think that's the,
for me, that's the essence ofthe growth cycle. And as a
tumuaki, I try to stay curiousabout what each kaiako is
working on. Yeah you've got tohold a lot in your mind as a
tumuaki, but it's also veryimportant to understand and, you
(05:01):
know, know, hey, look, thisteacher's been working on an
engagement in their class. Youknow, what I know about that?
How can I listen to what they'vegot to say? So those everyday
interactions are crucial. And ofcourse, making sure it's a
living process, Rose-Annementioned before, you don't need
a banana box of evidence anymore.So that helps it become a more
living process and less socompliance or a top-down sort of
(05:25):
task that you must complete.Weaving that professional
learning into the fabric of yourdaily work, I think, is probably
a way I'd like to look at Andwhen it's done well, I can
create really good equity foryour ākonga. It can create that
consistency of practice acrossyour classrooms.
Eleisha (05:40):
Hmm. Yeah. That's awesome. And, um, Stephanie,
Isaac just mentioned, you know,making it more than an
obligation, more like anopportunity. How do you make
sure that that happens in yourkura?
Stephanie (05:50):
So the philosophy we run with is it's done with, not
done to.
Eleisha (05:55):
Hm.
Stephanie (05:55):
And if we think about how we give students agency,
then our teachers also need tohave agency about their voice,
choice and ownership around thethings they, that they're
working on. And we need to helpbuild their capability and
capacity to be able to look attheir data and decide actually
what kind of decisions do I, asthe professional, need to make
for the students in front of me.And I think for us too it's a
(06:19):
mix of the goal setting, theobservation, feedback,
reflection, and it's not aone-way street.
Eleisha (06:25):
Hm.
Stephanie (06:25):
It isn't someone coming in and saying, 'Oh,
you're not doing this right',it's about walking beside
someone to build that capabilityand capacity because at the end
of the day, this is about ourtamariki. And the more support
you provide your kaiako, thebetter it is for the kids in
those teachers' classrooms. Soif we think about it like being
(06:46):
data-informed but not punitive,and it's about supporting
teachers,not just about judgingperformance because performance
could, like, that's reallyfickle, could walk to any
classroom on any given day andsee something that might be a
little worrying. But you don'tknow what the context does,
whereas if it's a really genuineprocess, where we're looking at
(07:06):
building capability and capacitythat those sorts of arbitrary
decisions don't happen becauseyou've got this built-up picture
and it is about beingsolutions-focused,
Eleisha (07:17):
Hm.
Stephanie (07:17):
and 'What do we need to do together?' 'Cause when
we're in that waka together,it'll go faster.
Eleisha (07:24):
Yeah, absolutely. And you alluded there, you know,
that, that this is all about thetamariki in your kura. So, how
do you make sure that youconnect the PGC back to outcomes
for your students, so growthisn't just teacher-focused, but
it's focused on those kids.
Stephanie (07:39):
And I think there's two parts to that For me, so
there's the soft and the harddata. So there's the summative
and formative data, the actualdata that you have on students'
academics. But there's alsowhat's happening for the social,
emotional, cultural and physicalwell-being of students. So it's
about being able to look at allthe different types of data that
we have and seeing what impactyou are having on that group of
(08:04):
students or that individualstudents. And for those kids who
are always going to have astruggling time in their
educational journey, it's aboutvalue-added. And sometimes
value-added might not be greatjumps in reading, writing or
maths, it might actually be intheir relationships with others
or it might be something amazingthey've So I think it isn't a
(08:26):
black and white picture in termsof the impact you make in the
classroom. And I mean, there'slots of literature, lots of
research on knowing thine impact.But as a school, and I think
Isaac you alluded to this beforeabout unpacking that, knowing
what it is that you're lookingfor in your kura, what you value
and and your context reallymatters. So at Beach Haven,
(08:49):
looking closely at attendancedata and not just the raw data,
but actually what's the contextthat sits behind each of those,
each of those numbers has a face,and being able to go, ah,
there's a bigger story, there'sa bigger picture here. And I
guess before when I was talkingabout growing capability and
capacity, that's what I mean interms of our teaching and middle
(09:11):
and senior leadership teams,understanding how to use data in
a way that grows that capabilityto support students in the
classroom.
Eleisha (09:19):
Awesome. Isaac, what would you add to that?
Isaac (09:21):
I tautoko everything Stephanie's said there. I'll go
back to the concept of beingcurious. And I think for me, if
we're curious, curiosity isinfectious. You know, you see
that curious kid, you see thosecurious teachers. It can be
infectious. And I think you haveto lead that as tumuaki. You've
got to be the lead curiousperson. And to be curious, you
(09:41):
need data, you need evidence,you need all sorts of things to
back you up. So I completelytautoko what Stephanie said
about that. I like what JimKnight says about building a
clear picture of reality. Ithink that's crucial in this
sort of situation because me asthe teacher, I might think I'm
really good at this, but as, youknow, and that's subjective,
that's just my view of things. Ineed something, something else
(10:01):
to help me build that clearpicture of reality. And Jim
Knight talks about a whole lotof ways of collecting data. You
have observational checklists.You've got videos. You've got
reflective prompts where you'relooking at your own teaching and
what the kids are doing. And atEnner Glynn school, we developed
some tools to support us so thatkaiako could look at what they
were doing, could look at whatthe students were doing, and
(10:21):
then, you know, we'd haveengagement surveys as a result
and all sorts of things. So youcould find out what was actually
happening for the students. Youhave to, you know, as you
mentioned before Eleisha, atleast it has to be connected to
the kids. Professional growthcycle encompasses a lot of
things. It encompasses thosestandards, which are important
for us as a profession. But it's,as Stephanie mentioned, it's
about what you're doing in yourschool, in your kura, making it
(10:42):
real, student voice data. Whenyou're going into a coaching or
mentoring conversation, you know,a basic question, and this was
mentioned in a previous podcastby Dr. Jan Robinson. You know,
on a scale of 1-10, 1 being theworst, 10 being the best, how
did the lesson go for you? Andthen you follow it up with, you
know, okay, so you said it was a7. What would move it to a 10?
(11:03):
And those are simpleconversations that can be quite
rich and quite deep when you'relooking at, and you've gone
through that data as Stephaniesaid, and you've looked at
what's happening for thestudents, what's happening in
your teaching. So yeah, but thatclear picture of reality.
Staying curious will help youmake sure you're connecting the
growth cycle to your students.
Eleisha (11:20):
And Rose-Anne, I saw you nodding along there.
Rose-Anne (11:22):
I just like the supporting teachers to be able
to self-reflect and self-reflecton how they think that their
lesson went and what they coulddo differently, and how it puts
the lens of what they can dodifferently rather than what
didn't go well or what was bad,you know. I just like the whole
framework with it.
Eleisha (11:40):
Yeah.
Stephanie (11:41):
Can I jump in to just to back up what Isaac was saying
about student voice, man, thatis the, if there was one thing
that just is transformational interms of turning around what's
happening in a classroom, it isstudent voice. So I'll give you
an example. At our place, Icollect the writing because
that's my jam. And, um, and I'llget a group of kids, a cross
(12:02):
section of a class, ask themsome questions like, simple
things like, show me a piece ofwriting you're proud of, and
tell me why you're proud of it.And then we have a series of
questions from everything from doesyour teacher like writing, tell
me how you know. And what areyou working on at the moment?
And depending on the answers,it's really enlightening. It'll
tell me more in a half an hourconversation with the group of
(12:24):
kids it will tell me more aboutwhat's happening in a writing
program, fo example, than what Icould see in a quick observation,
and it's really interestingbecause when the kids talk about
what's happening in a classroom,and then you feed that back to
teachers, teachers are like, oh,I didn't realise they didn't
understand that's what they'remeant to be doing. And so the
change in practice becomessomething they own that they
(12:46):
then work with their kids on. Soyour student voice is super
powerful. An that would be, ifthat's the biggest takeout that
people have today is don'tunderestimate the power of that.
And it's a gentle done-with kindof thing. So, um, yeah,
definitely that. And the otherthing I would back up is what
you said about Jim Knight. Hiswork on instructional coaching
is phenomenal. And if you get achance to listen to him, and how
(13:10):
you can integrate instructionalcoaching, that's fabulous as
well
Eleisha (13:13):
Awesome. Thank you. Um, so you have all talked about
gathering all that information,the student voice data, all of
those things. So in yourinteractions with teachers is
that what you use to help themset their objectives so they're
really meaningful for the kidsin the kura. Isaac.
Isaac (13:32):
Yes, absolutely. You know, staying curious, We've already
mentioned Jim Knight, let's godown another path here and talk
about Russell Bishop's GPILSEOframework. Now, if you haven't
"Leading to the North East", youneed to, as a tumuaki, you need
to get your nose into that book.
Eleisha (13:46):
We've got him on shortly.
Isaac (13:47):
Oh brilliant, that's fantastic. But those
collaborative tools, you know,Stephanie mentioned before, it's
not just about your relationshipwith the teacher. It's about a
whole group around and workingtogether around those problems
of practice because there's alot of expertise on your staff.
Eleisha (14:04):
Hmm.
Isaac (14:04):
You know, your teacher may have collected some data
around, you know, or developed atheory in their own teaching
potentially, hey look, I, I'mstruggling to engage these
students. Well, there's, there'sa brilliant hook for your, for
your growth cycle. Start beingcurious, well, what engagement
strategies have I tried? Well,how have they worked? You know,
gather some information, getsome insights into that, and
then look at those, uh, thoseconversations you have with your
(14:27):
mentors, your peers, yourcolleagues And potentially you
might find it could be achallenge across a number of
classrooms, in which case thatbecomes a great hook for your
problem of practice. You know,you can have an inquiry that's
based on your learning, butyou're doing it alongside others,
Eleisha (14:41):
Hm.
Isaac (14:41):
um, so I think that data is, is crucial in, in enabling
you to build your theories,those theories in your practice,
that you'd like to change oraddress, and work from there for
sure.
Eleisha (14:52):
Stephanie, Ro, do you have anything to add
Stephanie (14:54):
I would just absolutely agree with what
Isaac's just said. I love thatnotion of curiosity and and
being professionally curious.Like if something's not working
you want to ask yourself why andwhat am I going to do about it
and who can help me on thatjourney and I think if we help
our teachers understand that itis a journey and that it's going
(15:14):
to, it's like a roller coasterreally and so there's times
where it's going to be reallyawesome and other times it's
like oh my goodness what am Idoing here and being
professionally curious about howcome that group aren't moving
the way I want them to do, whyis this behavior a constant
thing happening in my classroom,who can come in and help me, do
I need someone to observe me, doI need to see someone in action
(15:37):
solving that problem, andlearning talk framework helps
teams go through those commonareas and Isaac said before the
problems of practice you don'tknow what you don't know
Eleisha (15:48):
there? Hm.
Stephanie (15:48):
and when you're listening to colleagues go and
they all bring say their writingbooks or whatever's happening in
maths and go I, you know I can'tget past this point I don't know
why these kids won't doparagraphs or I don't know why,
whatever's happening, and whenyou can share your common common
frustrations and where you'rehitting the wall and and also
(16:08):
celebrate where things areworking great and I think when
you can collaborate and talk asa group of and on that
collective efficacy where we'reall on this together and unpack
those problems of practicetogether, it; s that old adage
of a problem shared is a problemhalved, But what teachers they
get all excited about oh man Inever thought about doing that,
(16:29):
then they set some goals andthey come back to it a few weeks
later in their team and go youknow so Eleisha tell me how you
went with that issue with theparagraphing or the behaviour or
whatever's going on and thosekinds of conversations are
really exciting because whatteachers are doing is they are
working above the line,
Eleisha (16:47):
Hm.
Stephanie (16:47):
they' looking, they're not blaming, they're not
putting an issue in theirclassroom, they're not blaming
the child or the parent or thesociety or whatever, they're
taking accountability andsetting a goal and going you
know actually this is my job asthe teacher to figure this out.
It's awesome it's very exciting.
Isaac (17:02):
It's an excellent point you make there Stephanie because
if you're going back to yourdata and you've determined what
gains you're making to thestudents to the ākonga, that
creates collective among yourstaff and that's a real powerful
motivator for your teachers.Really really good point yeah
tautoko that one as well, kiaora.
Stephanie (17:18):
Because I think actually success breeds success
right, and think sometimes maybewe tiptoe around some of the
scary stuff or we we don't wantto get into a conflict with
someone but actually, we'readults, we have to have robust
conversations about if somethingisn't working how come, and what
are we gonna do about it andthere's no point getting caught
(17:39):
up in the weeds around oh weused to do it like this we do
whatever, we're here right nowwith this current cohort of kids,
what's happening, what can we doabout it and I'm not gonna cry
about yesterday we need to nowwork for today for tomorrow
right, and it's so easy to saythat isn't it because I know
that sometimes you get it theget the odd person who might be
(17:59):
dragging their heels but
Eleisha (18:00):
Hm.
Stephanie (18:01):
once people see that success start to fly and that's
why we are educators right it'sthe coolest thing when our kids
are overcoming these challengesbecause you know you can go home
each night and go I made adifference today.
Eleisha (18:14):
Hm. Hmm. Hm. Hm. Yeah.
Stephanie (18:15):
I guess as tumuaki it's almost like you're the
conductor of that orchestra andand as tumuaki we also need to
go actually what didn't go sowell today which is part of our
own professional growth cycle,being able to nut those problems
of practice out with your owngroup and is really valuable so
(18:35):
it's not just a done-to or donewith process with our staff, we
are involved in that too.
Eleisha (18:40):
Absolutely. You talked there helping your teachers, can
you share an example of howyou've helped a teacher through
a challenging phase in theirprofessional growth journey?
Isaac (18:51):
I go back to the engagement, there's one that
sticks out very clearly in myhead working with a kaiako, this
is a bit prior to becoming atumuaki. And my specialism was
in, was in formative practice,formative assessment. And this
particular kaiako was strugglingwith engaging the students. So
we, we went through a processrather than jumping to solutions,
we started with listening,trying to understand what was
(19:12):
going on for the students, beingopen to multiple theories from
the teacher. Stephanie mentionedbefore about deficit. Well, the
thing about thinking in thedeficit about student challenges
is that you're not going to fixthose because the problem sits
with the student if you've, youknow, theorising in the deficit.
So we had to think agetically,you know, what, what is it that
I could do to impact the, theengagement. So we, we
(19:34):
constructed us a small inquiryfocused on those formative
practices, um, it was where Icould add value and support the
kaiako at the time. We usedvoice, we gathered some
baselines in terms of, of howengaged students were and, and I
could, I supported by doing awee observation and, and giving
a little bit of a viewpoint onit, the teacher was very open to
learning, which is reallyimportant, the trust in the
(19:55):
relationship has to be right inthese sort of situations. over
time, the teacher trialled acouple of formative approaches.
You know, they didn't all work.Um, but they, they trialled one
and it worked. She saw a shiftand it built her confidence and,
and that one was a really goodone for me as a, as a, a deputy
principal at the time, becausethat particular person developed
a an aspiration for leadershipthrough their influence over
(20:17):
their colleagues, particularlyaround the formative practices
she was using in assessment. Andit started to impact those other
teachers as well. She became aninfluential leader in those
school, in our school, and then,but also across other schools.
The key for me to remember, Ithink was that I was walking
alongside them. I wasn't doingit for them. I wasn't, but I was
walking alongside them andsupporting with learning and
that's the same approach I'vetaken as a tumuaki. That one
(20:40):
particularly stands out becausewe spent a lot of time on that
one and it was, it was quite, uh,the word used before was
transformation was quitetransformational for both of us,
not just for that teacher.
Eleisha (20:50):
Hm. That's very cool. Rose-Anne, what are the most
common challenges the Councilsees kaiako face during their
professional growth cycle and,and what do you recommend?
Rose-Anne (21:00):
Look, this is quite interesting because often
challenges with the professionalgrowth cycle only come to light
for us when there are competenceconcerns. And that's actually
quite late in the piece. Andideally we want to be, we want
teachers to be supported wellbefore it gets to that point.
One of the things that we thinkis really, really useful and
really, really valuable is thata really clear and robust common
(21:25):
understanding of the standardsand how they are enacted and
used in your school.
Eleisha (21:30):
Hm
Rose-Anne (21:30):
So if all the teachers know actually this is
what's expected of me to beenacting the standards in this
school, then that goes a longway towards supporting them to
be able to be meeting thestandards. The other thing that
we think's really useful is tomake sure that the standards are
discussed, they're talked about,they're integrated throughout
the professional growth cycle,so throughout professional
(21:53):
learning and observation ofpractice and feedback, making
sure that the standards arealive through those discussions.
That helps teachers get a reallygood understanding of what's
expected of them. And for theprincipal to understand the
teacher's perspective as welland to be able to work together
(22:13):
to support the teacher to bemeeting the standards as
expected.
Eleisha (22:17):
Which it sounds like Stephanie and Isaac, you both do
very well. Um, but what do youdo if you as the principal,
don't think that one of yourteachers is meeting the standard,
Stephanie.
Stephanie (22:28):
It, it is about systems, structures and
processes and just listening toRose-Anne there, one, a really
neat thing to do as a school isto take the code of professional
responsibility, there's a reallygood resource that's examples in
practice that the Teachers'Council have online.
Eleisha (22:50):
Hm.
Stephanie (22:50):
And it talks about this is what it looks like when
you're meeting the code. This iswhat it looks like when you're
not. It's fabulous. Take that,and do your own version for your
own kura. So we've got a sethere at Beach Haven, is this is
what it looks like when we aremeeting this and doesn't look
like. And here's how our agreedpractices are, and, Isaac,
(23:13):
talked a bit about this at thevery beginning, around how
important unpacking this is foryou. And the system structures
and process should someone havea speed wobble and fall off
their bike, those are reallyimportant because you need to
get there before it becomes aproblem. And if you have good
(23:33):
systems that involve feedback,feed forward, the coaching,
mentoring and what happenswithin teams and the use of data,
all those things are reallyrobust, it shouldn't get to the
point where someone needs toreach competency because you are
already there. And you arealready supporting people who
can have a bit of a speed wobble,whether it's because something's
(23:55):
happening outside of school orbecause the cohort is really
hard and whatever's happening inthere and they might need some
more PLD to strengthen an areathat they haven't need to
exercise for a bit. So I wouldsay that if we could just get in
there early enough, we wouldavoid most of the problems
around competency. And the otherpiece of advice I have to our
(24:17):
colleagues, is if you do need toget to competency that process
needs to be super robust andworking with union and school
boards and make sure that you dothat properly and respectfully,
and with some bravery. Becauseit isn't okay to ignore it.
Eleisha (24:36):
Hm. H. Yeah. Isaac, you agree?
Isaac (24:37):
100% agree, um, prevention is the best medicine.
And as I Stephanie justmentioned, competency is not a
process that anyone comes out ofwith great mana. And it's a very,
very challenging process,particularly if it's as
Rose-Anne mentioned, if it'sleapt into too late. So yeah,
those processes are hugelyimportant, the relationship, the
(24:58):
conversations, building of thatefficacy, so the teachers can
see that they're impacting thekids. They're all ways and means
that you can make sure that thecompetency is high. I love my
mantras. One of them is clarityproceeds competence. Now I don't
mean competence terms of beingcompetent as a teacher, I mean,
clarity is important if you'regoing to be competent
(25:19):
implementing something. In thiscase, clarity around the
professional growth cycle andthose professional standards is
crucial. You build that clarityas a tumuaki. But your role as
tumuaki is to is to ensurequality teaching is happening in
your classrooms across yourclassrooms, that's your role.
And you have to be proactive inthat space, you have to be
intentional in that space. youdo take your eye off that ball
(25:40):
or if that intention is draggedaway by other things or other
distractions, then you are goingyourself up to the challenge of
the difficult conversations withyour teachers, rather than the
learning and the positives andthe fabulous things that are
happening in your classrooms, ifyou don't pay attention to it
and those things fall away, thento a point, and I don't want
(26:02):
make anyone feel stink orterrible here, to a point you're
neglecting your responsibilitiesto your tamariki, to your kaiako
and to your community.
Eleisha (26:11):
Hm. Hm. Yeah. Roseanne.
Rose-Anne (26:13):
What I'm going to say is going to relate a lot to what
Stephanie and Isaac have alreadysaid. I think first thing is to
make sure that the teacher knowsthat you've got some concerns
about their practice. We oftenfind that that is missed or that
the teacher says to us, "Ididn't know they didn't think I
was meeting that standard." Sothat could be discussing it with
that teacher or Isaac talkedearlier about evidence, the role
(26:35):
of evidence and things like that.As a principal, you might need
to gather some evidence to helpthat teacher see what you were
seeing or what you were notseeing and things like that. So
Eleisha (26:46):
Hm.
Rose-Anne (26:46):
making sure that that teacher understands your
perspective on their practiceand then putting supports in
place to help them be meetingthe standards and to be
achieving what you expect ofthem. Yeah, I think those are
really important steps aresometimes missed. And as
Stephanie mentioned earlier,being brave in that space so
(27:07):
that you can say nip it in thebud before it becomes a big
thing. Then if sufficientprogress isn't made, then you
need to go down thoseperformance management processes.
Eleisha (27:18):
Rose-Anne, the Teaching Council's resourses and
standards, how can principalsuse them to their teachers, um,
professional development, partnew principals, I would say.
Rose-Anne (27:28):
So the teaching council's currently, uh,
updating our professional growthcycle resources to align with
the 2026 standards. And we'reworking with group of principals
and early learning leaders aswell across all sectors to
represent and to develop orcraft these resources in a way
(27:50):
that they can test it in theirservices and their schools as
well to make sure that whatwe're, um, sharing is actually
workable. I think the 2026standards gives a really good
opportunity to review andreflect on, uh, professional
growth cycle design and toreflect on your design in
relation to the principles andthe intent of the professional
(28:12):
growth cycle, so making surethere is that high trust
approach that it's collaborative,th it's meeting the needs of
teachers, that it's reducing theburden of compliance that we had
before, uh, focusing on growthand valuing what works and what
works well for the particularsituation for the setting and
(28:34):
also for the individual teacher,knowing that, an example's that
some teachers might like to talktheir reflections, some teachers
might like to write them andothers work best with thinking
them, but working withindividual styles as well. So,
Eleisha (28:48):
Hm.
Rose-Anne (28:48):
yeah, using the 2026 standards and the refreshed
resources that are coming toreview and reflect on your
processes in relation to theintent and the principles of
professional growth cycle.
Eleisha (29:00):
And finally, what would your advice be for principals
who are supporting their kaiakothrough their professional
growth cycle learning?
Isaac (29:10):
I think it's really important to remember as tumuaki,
your role is to hold some ofthat space for growth. Don't
rush things, do it well, bepatient, celebrate small wins,
keep the focus on outcomes forthe ākonga, lead with that
empathy and intentionality thatwe've described. I think the
professional growth cycle canbecome a real, powerful lever
(29:30):
for transformation in yourschool if you do it well. Build
that clarity on the professionalgrowth cycle, what does it look
like in your setting, buildingon what Rose-Anne said? How does
it involve others in meaningfulways? How do you know it's
working? So that's pull thatevidence. How do you know your
current cycle is working andwhat are you doing if it's not
or alternatively what are youdoing if it's going really well?
Eleisha (29:51):
Hmm,
Isaac (29:51):
And that last part is don't sit on your laurels, don't
just let it happen, beintentional about it again.
Stephanie (29:57):
For me, system structures and processes. Made
so you're really clear aboutknowing you why? Like, why are
we doing this? What's thebenefit and having your teachers
part of that so that it's notthis arbitrary decision that
you've made or a system you putin place. But actually, where
was the teacher agency indeveloping what works for your
school, for your context, foryour tamariki, and if we have
(30:21):
teachers involved in thedevelopment of that and the
review of that. You know, to besustainable in that space, you
need to review it. You need tolook at it and go, is this fit
for purpose? So ongoing selfreviews are really important.
It's really important that yourprofessional growth cycle links
back to your strategic andannual plan, and your goals. You
(30:44):
wouldn't put some arbitrary PLDin place, just cause. It should
link back to what it is you'retrying to achieve, which is also
based on your school's data. Soif things are aligned, then that
makes participating in this nota chore but something that
actually is really purposeful.
Eleisha (31:02):
Thank Rosanne?
Rose-Anne (31:03):
so I think focusing on building that reflective, um,
curious culture among yourteachers so that, they feel
comfortable to say, hey, thiswent well or this could have
been better and things like that.And, might, that might take role
modeling, some vulnerability andcuriosity into your own practice,
but creating that would, wouldgo a long way. Another place is
(31:28):
that strengthening of theteachers understanding of what
the standards look like in yourplace and I keep saying that,
but I think it is really, reallyimportant. And then keeping the
standards visible and I don'tmean visible with necessarily
visible with your eyes butknowing and talking about the
standards throughout yourprofessional growth cycle
(31:48):
throughout the year, don't waituntil the end of the year when
you're doing your annual summarystatements, don't wait until
it's time to endorse apracticing certificate but keep
them alive throughout the year,throughout teachers practice, um,
throughout their learning anddevelopment.
Eleisha (32:03):
Wow, some amazing advice there. Thank you all so
much for your time today. Ireally appreciate
Stephanie (32:07):
Kia
Eleisha (32:08):
it.
Stephanie (32:08):
ora. Kia ora. Kia
Eleisha (32:10):
See ya, thanks. In the next episode, Mārama talks to
rural principals aboutovercoming isolation in rural
schools. Mā te wā.
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