Season 2, Episode 2 Leadership is the task: Creating opportunities for leadership growth in schools

From recognizing the subtle signs of leadership readiness to providing meaningful development opportunities, we’ll discuss how our guests have successfully mentored teachers into leadership roles and built a culture where potential leaders feel supported to step up.

Our guests are:

• Ian Taylor, principal of Manurewa Intermediate and author of "All the time, Every Time, All of us, Everywhere!"
• Denise Torrey, former tumuaki of Somerfield Te Kura Wairepo in Christchurch, and now principals’ support officer for the Primary Principals’ Collective Bargaining team.

This podcast was produced for the Ministry of Education.

 

You can learn more by accessing the e-learning modules for principals on the Education LMS: https://training.education.govt.nz

Episode Transcript

Eleisha (00:08):
Kia ora, and welcome back to The Principals, a
podcast series for aspiring andcurrent senior leaders and
tumuaki in Aotearoa New Zealand.I'm Eleisha McNeill, and today
I'm back with Iain Taylor,longtime principal of Manurewa
Intermediate School, and DeniseTorrey, former tumuaki and now
principal support officer forthe Primary Principals

(00:29):
Collective Bargaining Team basedin Christchurch. Uhm, last time,
Denise, we were talking aboutwhat you look for in future
leaders. What about the otherside of the coin, where, um, you
know, someone's very ambitiousand very, very keen to get into
school leadership? And you cansee that perhaps they're not the

(00:50):
right fit, how do you handlethat, if it's someone within
your own school coming to youand telling you they want to do
it?

Denise (00:59):
I guess part of it is the coaching. Why do you think
you'd be good at this? Sometimespeople want to run before they
can walk and it's about coachingthem about the skills that
they've currently got or not

Eleisha (01:11):
Hmm.

Denise (01:12):
got that are necessary for the next step up and getting
them through a respectful way ofcoaching that actually they
don't have skills at this timeand maybe they don't have the
skills. But one of the things wedo is we have to put our big
girl in boy pants on and havesome of those really tricky
conversations with people andsay I'm not seeing what you're

(01:36):
seeing at the time. Can you tryand explain that to me?
Obviously you've been for threeinterviews and they're not
seeing it either. You might a)need to build your skills or b)
think about something else youcan do. So sometimes one of the
other things we do as leaders ishave tricky conversations with
people and we have to do them.And if we don't do them, and

(01:57):
Iain and I have got probablystory upon story where schools
have failed because the leaderis too afraid to have those
conversations. And the teachersrun the school, not the leaders
in the school and kids aredisadvantaged by that. So

(02:18):
telling people that maybe youdon't have the skills or what do
you need to do and I might helpyou coach it. But also being
honest and say, actually, Idon't think you've got that
particular skill or skill set atthis time and be really honest.

Iain (02:33):
Oh, I totally agree with everything Denise just said. All
I would add is... It's verydifficult to get the perfect
well-rounded principal,obviously. None of us are
perfect. We all have greatstrengths and some things and
weaknesses and others. But youwant to try and get someone with
as many great skills as possible.And I often are concerned about

(02:55):
our colleagues where someonemight be incredibly visionary,
but they do not know how to makesomething happen. They
disorganised or they're all overthe
place. Likewise, the other wayaround, someone might have
incredibly, incredibly technicalskills with a highly organised,
highly efficient, a great writer,the tension to detail and all

(03:16):
that sort of stuff, but theyjust have no human relational
skills. And that's a concern aswell. So I think any aspiring
principal needs to have a bit ofa balance of everything. You're
not going to be perfect ateverything, but you need to have
the balance of everything Ibelieve. And there will be
something that you are a realexpert in, that is the area that

(03:39):
you work on to encourage youraspiring leaders to get to that
level. And you

Eleisha (03:44):
Hmm.

Iain (03:44):
can also learn off them if they've got a skill in something
else that you don't have thatreal strength in. So that's why
the relationships betweenyourselves are really important,
as well. So that you can learnfrom each other, still, not all
about you teaching them what todo, like when people talk about,
"Oh, they're a great teacher,that'd be a great principal.

(04:05):
Well, not necessarily so. Andvice versa, there could be
someone who is a great principalthat wasn't a good teacher. But
I think everybody who wants tobe a great principal needs to be
a great facilitator of people.And as a teacher, that means
getting along with the kids andhaving an energy and an
enthusiasm that's contagiousagain. But it doesn't mean

(04:27):
you're the expert withcurriculum. I'm the first to
admit, I am not a curriculumexpert in any way, shape or form.
And part of that reason isbecause I wasn't in the class
for very long. But I don't wantto be the curriculum leader of
my school because I've got otherpeople who are way better than
me to do that stuff. I wouldmuch rather be sitting down with

(04:48):
a kid or a parent that'sstressed out and doing that
stuff. I mean, my whole day in aschool like where I am now is
spent dealing with people. And Ilove that. But I also love a
whole lot of other stuff. And Idon't like a whole lot of other
stuff. So I have to make sure Iappoint people around me who are
good or better at all the thingsI'm not good at. I'm a great

(05:12):
teacher. And I can spin on myfeet and perform, you know, like
a little jack Russell orwhatever, but I'm not a
curriculum knowledge personanymore, that's for sure. And I
never was really to be fair, butI knew how to teach.

Denise (05:24):
I just want to carry on from that because actually a lot
of those relationalconversations and it came back
to me as I was retiring is thatI talk about learning and
teaching all the I don't talkabout curriculum because like
Iain that there are other greatpeople who did that. But I talk
about learning and teaching allthe time and even when I'm

(05:46):
talking to kids or I'm talkingto parents or I'm talking to
teachers, I'm talking aboutlearning I know what good
teaching looks like and I thinkteachers love that and when
you're building leaders, if youcan hear them talking about
learning and teaching and kidsand the needs of kids and they
have that strategic, you know,we're building this great home

(06:10):
for the mind where everyone'stalking about learning and
teaching and kids all the time.I think that's one of those
things that you notice missingin some people

Eleisha (06:22):
Hmm.

Denise (06:23):
and they might have, as Iain said, the strategic
thinking. But if they don't havethe strategic thinking in
learning and teaching, what'sthe purpose? What are they here
for? And that's the mostimportant thing, learning and
teaching, kids outcomes, kids,you know, being encouraged to be
the best they can be andencouraging teachers to be the

(06:44):
best they can be. They might notbe a leader, but the person
who's talking to them aboutlearning and teaching is always
encouraging them to be the bestthey can be.

Eleisha (06:52):
I absolutely, so what kinds of opportunities can you
give to help them get leadershipexperience within schools?
Obviously it varies according toyour school. Do you match people
with their talents like how, howdo you go about, you know, kind
of identifying what people aregood at and where, which

(07:12):
leadership area they might sitbest in? Is it just by knowing
them well?

Iain (07:17):
Yeah. Yeah. I think they self-select probably in the
sense that whatever thestrengths and skills passions
they have, they are very obviousto everybody on the staff. So an
internal person is hopefullyputting themselves forward to be
doing whatever it is aroundthose things. And it doesn't
mean it's a formalisedleadership position, everyone's
a leader. A teacher in theirclassroom is a leader in their

(07:40):
classroom. The teacher in theclass next door is a leader for
that other teacher if they'rethe expert in phys ed, for
example. And that's how Istarted because I was given a
whole lot of things around PEand sports, the typical male
things, that you love doing whenyou're young and all the rest of
it. So I think teachersself-select the leadership

(08:01):
skills they have and aneffective principal or other DP
will recognise that andencourage them to go further
with it, whatever that means.And then when they're confident
in the role of leadership,that's when I would throw new
things that they necessarilyhaven't done before at them, but
when they've got a bit ofconfidence around the things
that they are confident about.

Denise (08:22):
Schools have units now, a lot of units, not as many as
we'd like to have. And sometimesyou can give them a unit for a
passion or something thatthey're doing. Sometimes they
don't get a unit and they'restill passionate and they still
do it. And so next time when aunit comes up is it? Yeah, next

(08:43):
time a unit comes up and say,look, I've seen you've been
doing an X, Y and Z. Here' aunit I want to formalise that a
wee bit. I also like putting

Eleisha (08:51):
Hmm.

Denise (08:51):
people out of their comfort zone. You know, they
might be passionate about the X,Y and Z, but I can see how well
they collaborate with teachers,how they talk about learning and
teaching, how they relate toparents, and think, look, we
need someone to lead this pieceof work at the moment. Is this
something that you would beinterested in? Often they're
taken aback like, you know, howdid you know that? Do you trust

(09:14):
me? Absolutely, I'll help you,I'll coach you, but sometimes
it's taking them out of yourcomfort zone, and say their
comfort zone and saying, have a

Eleisha (09:22):
Hmm.

Denise (09:23):
go at this, and we'll support you in any way we can to
do this. And that, as Iain said,gets them to build a repertoire
of skills in multiple areas,because as a principal, you do
need skills in multiple areas,as DPs, you need skills in
multiple areas. So it's abouttapping into a person and saying,

(09:47):
would you give it a go? You know,this is what we can do for you,
but you give it a go, b I trustyou and I think you're going to
do a great job. So I think, youknow, we create formal ways of
doing it, giving units, a thenthere's the informal stuff.
We're watching people all thetime, we're watching how they
relate to people, parents, othergroups, the teacher that's gone

(10:09):
off, you know, I had a wonderfulteacher who was keeping her eye
on the Maths teacher site, andshe'd come back and she'd be
telling us all about the stuffand we're like, actually, we
think you could lead Maths.

Eleisha (10:22):
Hmm. Yeah.

Denise (10:22):
So, you know, there are people who might not have even
thought that they were going totake a leadership role, but you
can see that they could take aleadership role, and you give
them that opportunity.

Eleisha (10:32):
What would you both say to a principal who feels like
they don't really have time fordeveloping leaders in their
school?

Denise (10:40):
You don't, you have to make time.

Iain (10:44):
That's right. Yeah. I mean if I I'm sure Denise would
probably concur with mystatement, that that would be a
stupid principal, right? So, Ithink you want to, I mean, I
talked before providing thestructure and space a leader. So,
you want to do it. You want tonurture what I call your tight 5
or your tight 6 or whatever yourleadership team is. And as the

(11:07):
leader, as the leader, you needto make sure you're the trenches
with them, doing the stuff withthem as well, not just throwing
out edicts from above, sittingbehind your desk, not being
involved in things. So, it'svery, very important that you
encourage those people. aprincipal who didn't do that,
what an idiot.

Denise (11:29):
in and I both had one for opportunities to work
nationally, you know, whenyou're an NCPF president, you
lead 2,000, over 2,000 leaders,and they all have their own
opinions, but what's reallyimportant is they are focused on
a network. It's a national, it'sa small network that we can

(11:51):
improve outcomes for all kids.So, the more we encourage people
to grow as leaders in ourschools locally, an that's why I
am so vested in the CPPA middleleaders, because I want the best
leaders in front of kids inCanterbury, and we can encourage
people to keep growingleadership, because actually, it

(12:13):
has been an issue, there hasn'tbeen a lot of training in this
country for leaders, and thereneeds to be more

Eleisha (12:19):
Hmm.

Denise (12:19):
in their starting on that. But, we cannot do the work.
We have to do the to encourageleadership within our schools.

Iain (12:30):
And I think a leader needs to also be a bloody good role
model in the sense that you'vegot to, you've got to prioritise
being present. And when I say,when I talk about prioritising
being present, I don'tnecessarily mean physically at
school every single day allhours of the day of night. I
mean, part of that being on site,obviously, but also being

(12:53):
present in the, in therelationship with your DP's and
their career,

Eleisha (12:59):
Hmm.

Iain (13:00):
in terms of that you are showing that you are interested
in their progression. Because ifyou're showing them that,
they're going to be workingtheir butts off for you at that
school at that time, to get thatnext step, right? And if you're
going to acknowledge that andyou'll recognise that and then
they're going to be incrediblyloyal to you and your school,
and the kids are getting thebenefit of that.

Eleisha (13:20):
Yeah. And you mentioned, you know, like the support that
you offer the people who you'redeveloping, you know, that makes
such such a big difference andit might take a lot of time. But
at the end of the day, it'll allpay

Iain (13:33):
Absolutely. And for a principal, which is why I say a
principal is pretty silly ifthey don't spend time with their
DP's, because if you're makingthem better or helping them get
better,it's the principal atthe end of the day that gets the
cudos. Oh, they've run a greatschool, that's a great school.
Rara and it's not just becauseof you, it's

Eleisha (13:50):
you're

Iain (13:51):
because of all the people that you are helping, who are
helping you as well.

Eleisha (13:56):
absolutely. So what's, what do you find the most
rewarding part of developingleaders, other leaders?

Iain (14:03):
I find the most rewarding when a leader, a DP, becomes
better at something that theywould good at to start with. So
for example, if I've appointedsomeone because they've got some
skills that I am terrible at, Ialready know they're going to be
good at that, because that'spart of the reason that we want
them. But when they develop,because they're ready to acquire

(14:24):
or they're traits or leadershipskills, little bag, has
developed, that's assisted inthe things that they're not
necessarily good at as well.

Eleisha (14:31):
Hmm.

Iain (14:31):
And I always get a buzz when I hear or I observe a DP
feeling better at something. Andespecially the men. Because I
say this because in myexperience, the woman are
inherently more competent thanthe mean. And Denise is who
would be saying this many a time.And I say it quite publicly and
I really, really believe it. Sowhen a man DP becomes more

(14:57):
organised or more relational,not just running around thinking
that God's gift because they'rein a school and there's not many
men around, that makes me happyas well, because they're
justifying why they're there, Iguess. And that's important,because
the woman, it there may beslower, but they're way more

(15:17):
effective and competent.

Eleisha (15:18):
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I would say that surprises me, but
it doesn't.

Iain (15:23):
That surprised

Eleisha (15:24):
No, not at all.

Iain (15:25):
you
. I'd say God knows.

Denise (15:30):
I love it when you, um, watching them and their
confidence has grown, and, uh, Ibelieve my leadership is
two-fold. One I'm like theconductor out in front of the
orchestra, and I guideeverything and bring people in
as I need to. Sometimes, a lotof the time, I like to be in the

(15:50):
jazz orchestra where I'm playingalongside everyone else, and I
allow someone else to step outand take the lead over something,
it doesn't need to be me, Idon't need to be at the front of
the orchestra. I can do my bitbehind them supporting them with
whatever I'm playing, and thenthey step out and show the
initiative or take over controlof something,

Eleisha (16:11):
Yeah.

Denise (16:12):
and then they step back and then we can let someone else
step out and take it. And, um, Ilove that analogy because, it
shows that working together, wecan collaborate together and
utilise each other's skills andother people get to shine. It
doesn't need to, you know, Iaintalked about us getting the

(16:32):
kudos. It doesn't need to be usout in the front conducting.
Obviously, when it's a majoremergency, and we're good at
those down here in Canterbury,

Eleisha (16:41):
Hmm.

Denise (16:42):
I was out at the front all the time, leading my school
in my community, whatever crisiswe were going through. But
really, on the day-to-dayoperations, I can be part of the
jazz orchestra, allowing otherpeople to take the initiative to
lead it and to shine, and theother people in the orchestra

(17:03):
seeing them do that, andthinking, well, actually,
they've been allowed to do that,I might be able to do that, I
can step out and take theinitiative. So, I think that's,
I mean, I get a real buzz when Isee them do that, I also get a
buzz when they come to me andsay, "Oh, I'm thinking of
applying for a such-and-such job,what do you think?" I was like,
"Oh, yes, that's a great job.Why don't you have a go?" And

(17:24):
then I know my board chair isgoing to be in my

Eleisha (17:26):
Hmm.

Denise (17:26):
ear going, "Stop

Eleisha (17:27):
Hmm. Hmm. Yeah.

Denise (17:27):
it, Denise! Stop encouraging them." But, you know,
watching people grow and developand then take that next step is
that's really an amazing moment.

Eleisha (17:38):
Absolutely. Is there anything that either of you want
to add that you think isimportant to talk about when it
comes to identifying anddeveloping leaders?

Iain (17:48):
I think all I would say is that you want people to, I say
to people to be yourself and bereal. Don't put on a persona or
try to copy me or copy someoneelse because you think that's
the way to do it. You've got tobe yourself and you've got to be
real and you've got to sort ofnavigate by your own values,

Eleisha (18:08):
Hmm.

Iain (18:09):
that are marrying up with the school values, et. And just
show that you care about whatyou're doing, show that you're
interested in the kids, thatyou're interested in the staff
and have some bloody fun becausethe fun is sort of going out of
the system, so to speak, overover a long period of time it's
happening. So it's reallyimportant that you create that

(18:30):
sort of vibe within yourselvesas a staff. So that's what I
would say. Enjoy yourself, beyourself, have fun.

Denise (18:37):
And I would say leadership is not another task.
Leadership is the task,

Eleisha (18:43):
Hmm.

Denise (18:44):
whether you're a leader teacher or a DP or a Senco. It
is the task. Leading to me isprobably one of the most
important things other thanlearning and teaching that
happens inside the school. Somepeople won't apply for jobs at
the moment because they see it'san extra task.

Eleisha (19:04):
Hmm.

Denise (19:04):
And, yes, and actual fact, it is the work. That's
what it is, it is the work. Andthose people who get that,
they're usually great leaders.

Iain (19:15):
I hope to say one more thing about leaders and I'm sure
Denise would agree with me herethat we need to remember to be
optimistic always. I mean, yeah,a whole lot of crap goes down
all the time whether it be withparents or kids or a staff or
the ministry or the governmentor whatever, but if you're
optimistic, you are anoptimistic leader, you're

(19:37):
inspiring other people, you'remotivating people, you're
fostering that environment ofenthusiasm and passion and all
stuff, and hopefully that'senabling everyone in your
organisation to be resilient andto be doing what they should be
doing so that those kids infront of all the teachers in
that school are learning andbecoming a better human than
they were the day before. Thatsort of stuff,

Eleisha (19:57):
Absolutely.

Iain (19:58):
very important.

Eleisha (19:59):
Absolutely. That was great. Thank you so much.

Denise (20:03):
Cheers. Thank you. Bye, Iain. I'll See you later. Ciao.

Eleisha (20:06):
See you. In the next episode, we're going to be
talking about the transitionfrom teacher or senior school
leader to tumuaki and thetransformation that happens.
We'll see you then.