August 18, 2025 • 23 mins
The transition from teacher or senior school leader to tumuaki is more than just a title change – it's a professional and personal transformation. This episode talks about the transition into principalship, the differences between senior leadership and principalship, and ERO research into pathways new principals take, and their sense of preparedness for the role.
My guests are:
- Jacqui Brown, principal of New Plymouth Girls’ High School
- Prisca MacDonald, tumuaki of Tawa Intermediate School
- Elena Moretti, Director Engagement and Impact, ERO
This podcast was produced for the Ministry of Education.
You can learn more by accessing the e-learning modules for principals on the Education LMS: https://training.education.govt.nz
Additional information
ERO report summary: Guide for aspiring and new principals: ERO's new principals research
ERO full report: ‘Everything Was New’: Preparing and Supporting New Principals
Principal Development Map https://workforce.education.govt.nz/principals-and-schools/professional-development-and-support-principals/principal-development-map
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eleisha (00:08):
Kia ora, and welcome to The Principals, a podcast series
for aspiring and current seniorleaders and tumuaki in Aotearoa
New Zealand. I'm Eleisha McNeill.In this episode, we're talking
about pathways to principalship,and the key differences
experienced when an aspiringprincipal steps into the biggest
role in a school. I have threefabulous guests with me today.
(00:30):
Thank you for being here. Uhm,it would be great if you could
introduce yourselves, please.Maybe starting with you, Jacqui.
Jacqui (00:37):
Sure, um, kia ora koutou, ko Jacqui Brown tokū ingoa, ko
ahau te tumuaki o Te KuraTaitamawāhine o Puke Ariki New
Plymouth Girls' High School.We're around 1300 students,
about 150 staff across ourboarding hostel and school
context, and I'm coming up to myend of my fifth year as
(01:01):
principal and I absolutely lovemy job.
Prisca (01:03):
Kia ora koutou, ko Prisca McDonald tōku ingoa. I'm
just finished my third year asprincipal at Tawa Intermediate
in Wellington, u, we have 463students this year and you know,
being an intermediate, got itsglorious response to
opportunities for young people,bu it has the challenge of being
a school that's two years, sothat brings its own special
(01:24):
leadership challenges as well.Like Jacqui, love my job and
looking forward to sort of usingthis opportunity to reflect on
it to date as well.
Elena (01:34):
Uh, kia ora koutou, ko Elena Moretti tōku ingoa, ke Te
Tari Arotake Mātauranga, ahau emahi ana. I am the Director of
Engagement and Impact at theEvaluation Centre within the
Education Review Office. Sowe're the part of ERO that work
on national research andevaluation projects.
Eleisha (01:51):
Fantastic, thank you very much. Jacqui and Prisca, if
we start with you, justwondering about your own journey
to principalship and what pathsdid you take? Jacqui, start with
you.
Jacqui (02:04):
I suppose it was a fairly traditional path. I'd
worked through senior leadershiproles, probably spent nearly 15
years as deputy principal. I diddo some postgraduate study and
I'll be interested later to hearwhat Elena might say around the
usefulness of that, for me itprobably wasn't as helpful
(02:26):
personally as the hands-onexperience that I had as a
senior leader in schools.
Eleisha (02:33):
Fantastic. Prisca, how did you get to where you are?
Prisca (02:36):
I don't know, some days I'm still a little bit confused
by that. But in reality it's Ithink because I've always been
fascinated actually withcurriculum and teacher practice.
So I took on a deputyprincipal's role in Christchurch
that was particularly focused onthat that was when the 2007
curriculum came out. And so Isort of kind of segued into that
(02:56):
leadership space via the sort ofcurriculum development space.
And moved up to the North Islandprincipal, was deputy principal
at a full primary. And thenspent a couple of years at the
Teaching Council, so that wasquite an interesting experience.
But that was really importantfor me I think around system
level leadership and looking atthe education system, not just
(03:19):
the sort of delivery of teachingand learning within a school so
that was a great bit ofprofessional development.
Eleisha (03:25):
Absolutely. So both quite traditional paths through
senior leadership intoprincipalship. Jacqui, when you
first started in that seniorleadership role, when you moved
from that role into being aschool what was that transition
like? Did you find it difficult?
Jacqui (03:44):
At the time it probably felt incredibly difficult, but
as I reflect back on it now, itwas probably one of those things
that was just a natural stepthat you take. I suppose having
spent so long as a DP, and infact I was very happy as a DP, I
had for a long time thought thatI probably wouldn't take the
(04:04):
step to a principalship. I'deven done one of the very early
pilot aspiring principal courses,and actually at that time felt
that it probably wasn't for me,I'd left it for quite some years,
but I just reached a naturalpoint where I was like,
"Actually this is something Iwould like to do," and I was
very considered in the schoolsthat I applied to, and people
(04:26):
that I've worked with over timehave been absolutely adamant
from the day that they firststepped into a classroom that
their goal was to be a principal,and I've watched their journeys
and the way that they've takenthe first job that they could
apply for and get, whereas forme it wasn't like that. So I
suppose because I thinking thewhole time about the school and
(04:47):
the fit, then yes, there was alot to learn, and so much that
you don't know until you realizeyou don't know it, but actually
the journey felt reasonablysmooth for me, well particularly
in hindsight.
Eleisha (05:02):
hindsight is always
Jacqui (05:03):
Yeah,
Eleisha (05:03):
great,
Jacqui (05:04):
absolutely
Eleisha (05:04):
Prisca, what about you
Prisca (05:07):
Similar, in many respects. I I think because I'd
always followed my interests andpassions in terms of leadership,
it just felt a natural next stepfor want of a better word. I
think really it was sort of morethe mechanics of some of the
role that, that was perhaps the,the the newness and the thing
that was difficult to get togrips with. Like Jackie, I only
(05:28):
applied to a couple of schoolsthat I really was interested in,
and so it felt like it wassupposed to be,
Eleisha (05:33):
Mmm
Prisca (05:33):
that sounds very fairytale-ish, but you know it
did feel like it was, it wascoming into a place where I
could contribute to a community.
Eleisha (05:39):
That's fantastic. And what do you think was the
biggest shock or surprise whenyou stepped into the role,
Prisca?
Prisca (05:45):
Um, actually, something that still perterbs me, and I
don't know whether this is a NewZealand thing, but is how the
role is sort of seen by others.So there's a level sort of
dererence that people havetowards you the minute you say
you're a principal and this kindof almost assumption that you
know stuff, and particularlystuff like about property or,
(06:06):
you know, pay or HR and I alwaysfind that sort of quite amusing
that just because you have thissort of positional leadership
role, there's an assumption thatyou know all things about it,
and that's kind of scary. Ithink probably the thing that
was, it's not entirely different,but a little bit sort of
sidestep from the deputyprincipal role is that I, you
know, I was pretty much used toanyone in education spends long
(06:27):
hours and over the course of theweek, they kind of ebb and flow
but I have found increasinglythat if I don't pull time in a
weekend then actually it's I'mplaying catch up all the next
week and while I sort of knewthat would happen, I feel like
in my DP roles I was able tokind of shift things into the
working day largely, whe withthe principal role I feel like a
(06:47):
lot of the sort of quietreflection time or the planning
time that's needed I actuallyneed to do that in the weekend,
but I sort of, sort of knew thatwas going to happen but maybe
not to the extent it has.
Eleisha (06:58):
What about you, Jackie, was it similar for you?
Jacqui (07:00):
In terms of the time spent yes, I've probably always
spent a bit too much time onwork, but a colleague of mine
said that it's not work-lifebalance, it's work-life
satisfaction, and I really likethat, that idea that if you're
satisfied with the amount oftime you're putting into each
space so that you feel satisfiedwith the outcomes that you get
(07:23):
then you've got it in balancefor yourself, and so I probably
go for that more. For meprobably the thing that
surprised me a little bit morewas really the variety of the
things that you're doing in asingle day. You know even as a
DP you could spend a day doingsomething, but as a principal
(07:43):
you find yourself flicking asyou change from meeting to
meeting or from email to email,just like even as I think about
what I've done this morning, I'mthinking about seven different
things that range from propertyto planning a strategic planning
day to talking to a parent aboutthe behaviour of their daughter,
to thinking through an HR matter,to approving access to bank
(08:07):
accounts, and that's all just inone morning. And while
Eleisha (08:11):
Yeah.
Jacqui (08:11):
I
Eleisha (08:11):
[Laughs]
Jacqui (08:11):
knew that was going to be it, I think the variety of
the things that you think aboutand the way that people expect
you just to be able to pick up aconversation you might have had
with them two weeks ago, as ifyou just had it
Eleisha (08:25):
[Laughs]
Jacqui (08:25):
yesterday is one of the real challenges. A fun challenge,
bu certainly something that Iprobably wasn't quite prepared
for.
Eleisha (08:34):
Yeah, absolutely. And how would you describe the
fundamental difference betweenbeing a senior leader in a
school versus being theprincipal? You know, what's the
difference when the buck stopswith you, I guess. Jacqui?
Jacqui (08:47):
I think for me it's about trying to think ahead a
little bit more. As a deputyprincipal you're always keen to
protect the school, theprincipal, those around you, but
now I probably feel a little bitmore responsible to everyone and
the school and its reputation,not just now, but its legacy
into the future. So I feel alittle bit more responsible and
(09:09):
more of a guardian because ofthe time you have in the role.
And I think as you said, youknow when the buck truly stops
with you, that's when you startto feel that a little bit more.
Prisca (09:20):
Yes, I agree with that and I think the responsibility
thing I think one of theinteresting things has been that
there's that beautiful Māoriproverb but about walking into
the future but with your eyesfirmly fixed in the past and
it's that sort of, you're partof a continuum of people that
will lead in a school, and howdo honour the past and take the
school forward so that, that'skind of a responsibility beyond
(09:43):
time in, in a funny way in thatspace. That's a big difference,
but I also think the breadth ofrelationships and in part
because of the breadth of tasksthat you have as a principal but
just this huge range ofrelationships right through from
parents, through to staff,through to students, through to
business owners, through toMinistry and agencies and all
(10:05):
those different spaces andplaces. I think as a deputy
principal I only hadrelationships within a smaller
sphere
Eleisha (10:10):
Mm-hmm.
Prisca (10:11):
but that breadth has certainly been different.
Eleisha (10:13):
I bet it has. Um, and Elena, a couple of years ago,
ERO did some research on newprincipals. Who did you talk to,
and what were you looking at inthat research?
Elena (10:24):
Sure. Um back in 2023, the principal population was
changing, so we have had a bunchof our more experienced
principals move into retirement,more and more new principals
coming in. And there was amassive, I would say, increase
in the proportion of theprincipal population that is
(10:46):
within their first five years onthe job. And so that prompted us
to do this piece of research,which was looking at the
pathways that our new principalsare taking into the role, what
they look like, and how wellthose are preparing them for the
realities of the job, and thenhow their sense of preparedness
and a sense of confidence in arange of different areas around
(11:07):
the role shift and grow fromtheir first day walking in,
putting their feet under thedesk right up to five years.
years. We surveyed almost 600new principals, so that's over
two thirds of all new principalsin New Zealand, and we also
talked to board chairs, so keyexperts and we looked at some
local and international evidenceas well around pathways and
(11:29):
supports for these sorts ofpositions and how we compare to
different countries.
Eleisha (11:33):
did
yeah. And what did that researchfind?
Elena (11:36):
It was a really interesting one. So most of our
new principals came through thattraditional pathway that Jacqui
mentioned, and so through aleadership role. But we still
found that around a quarter ofour new principals still feel
that they're not prepared to dothe role when they start, and
there are some particular areasthat are not so confident in
once they're in the hot seat,and even in those first few
years, a the good news is thatconfidence does grow over time.
(12:00):
Interestingly, the areas wherepreparedness and confidence, uh,
were lower were around workingin partnership with Māori, and
those legal and administrativeparts of the role, which aren't
really part of your everyday jobwhen you're a DP, a senior
leader or a teacher. What we didfind was that confidence was
particularly high in those areasaround working with students,
(12:22):
building relationships withstudents, whānau, and the
school community, those thingsare part of your everyday role,
so people come in feeling prettygood about those ones. So we
found that confidence growsheaps over those first five
years, particularly around thoseengine room aspects, so the
legal requirements, dealing withstaffing and property and admin,
but we definitely heard that thelearning curve could feel more
(12:43):
painful than it should be, butthere are some things that do
help, like postgraduateprogrammes, coaching, mentoring,
and basically anything thatinvolves connecting with other
principals, ones that understandyour context, maybe are new like
you, ones that are experienced,that can give you advice, it's
that connection that's reallykey.
Eleisha (13:00):
Yeah, all of the principals that I've spoken to
have mentioned that as a keything, you know, that's helped,
that's helped their comfortlevels, having that someone to
bounce things off.
Elena (13:08):
So that's where some of the concerns come in around the
findings that we had aroundsmall schools. So when we
separated out our findings there,we found that the preparedness,
the confidence, the wellbeing,things aren't going so well for
those new principals that are inthose smaller settings.
Eleisha (13:26):
So
Elena (13:26):
So we know that they've got a range of tasks and
responsibilities that aredifferent and broader, and
there's usually a teachingcomponent as well. And then also
there's the isolation, accessissues. And sometimes the
experience that they come withfrom an urban or larger school
won't match up so well withtheir new role being in charge
of a small possibly rural, quitedifferent setting than they're
(13:47):
used to.There's some really coolwork that's happening, but yeah,
there's some work to issues. Oneof the One of the findings that
I find, um, most interesting, ifnot particularly surprising, was
that when we talked to theschool board chairs and
presiding members about howtheir principals were going in
terms of how confident they were,what they thought their
well-being was like, those boardchairs and presiding members
(14:10):
were like, yeah, no, they'regreat. They know exactly what
they're doing and they're goinghome smiling every day. And then
when we compared those resultsto, uh, what the principals were
saying themselves, it was a verydifferent picture. So that's
just a sprinkle of the findings.It is a big report and we made a
range of recommendations aroundwhat needs to shift around those
(14:31):
pathways and supports. Sothere's a short summary for
leaders or the report itselfthere on our ERO evidence
website if you give that one aGoogle.
Eleisha (14:39):
Yeah. And I'll put that in the show notes as well. Um,
Jackie and Prisca, what wouldyou say about those findings? Is
there anything in there thatmade you, you know, go? What? Or
was it all pretty much yourexperience? Jackie.
Jacqui (14:54):
I think most of it resonated with me, I think
particularly in the idea oftalking with other principals,
One of the other things that Ifound was that the parts that we
were feeling least confidentwith as beginning principals
were probably the things thatexperienced principals still
(15:14):
struggle with as well. That ideaof consultation and
communication with yourcommunity is getting harder and
harder as people's lives arebusier, you know, iwi, hapū,
they are all incredibly timepoor, pulled in multiple
directions, so things thatbeginning principals find hard
so do experienced principals. Ithink too the other part around
(15:37):
the lack of preparation, I thinkit's probably the same in any
organisation, but schools can'tafford to have two people doing
the same job just to givesomeone the experience, so a lot
of the time you haven't had theopportunity, yes, you might have
worked alongside someone on aproperty project, but you
weren't the one making thedecisions, you weren't involved
(15:58):
in every step of the way. Sothose parts there, you know, it
all makes complete and uttersense,but I think the enjoyment
when you get there makes it allworthwhile.
Eleisha (16:09):
That's so good. Pr, what about you? What did you,
were there any of those findingsthat made you?
Prisca (16:16):
I was intrigued by the commentary from board chairs or
presiding members around anassumption again that the
principal's doing okay. It isquite a sort of lonely job on
many levels and so I thinkparticularly in those first -
I'm going to call myself newstill, I'm three years in but
(16:36):
you sort of finding your feetand you're finding those
networks and those relationshipsthat that do contribute to your
growth but you're also finding,trying to find a pathway for the
school, and it's challenging tohave that sort of really open
explicit conversation with thepresiding member and I came in
sort of six months before westarted talking about board
(16:57):
elections, so it was just thisbig shift and change that we
were already looking at in termsof that relationship as well so
I think that's quite unique inNew Zealand is that sort of
autonomy of each school but itdoes mean each school sort of
every three years has a shiftand you have to kind of redo
relationships and re engage withpeople at quite a strategic
(17:18):
level in terms of talking aboutthe school and where it needs to
go, so that's an interesting andI don't I didn't have any sort
of professional development inthat kind of thinking or in the
management of that relationship.Fortunately I had magnificent
presiding members and that lentitself really well being able to
build a trusting open sort ofrelationship but I can imagine
(17:41):
that could be problematic, youknow in the early days for
someone who was really new andparticularly if you had a
presiding member that was new,it's sort of like the blind
leading the blind you know canbe catastrophic not in my case
fortunately.
Eleisha (17:52):
[Laughs] You know, we talked a little bit about, kind
of skills and things like that.Were there any kind of key
leadership skills that you hadto develop that you hadn't
needed in your previous seniorleadership roles, and if so,
which of those were hardest to,kind of, master, Jacqui?
Jacqui (18:10):
I think probably I'd had the opportunity to explore some
of those skills in the otherroles, but the real challenge is
being on the top of your gameall day, every day, and when
you're not, admitting whenyou're not, and, you know, if
you've got it wrong, that can goa really long way I think. But I
(18:33):
think more importantly probablyis figuring out the balance
between the urgent and theimportant, I think as a DP
you're guided a little bit byyour principal about how your
time is spent, whereas as theprincipal you've not only got to
do those things, but figure outwhat the urgent is and what the
important is and how to get thatbalance right, because the
(18:57):
urgent is always going to bethere, but it's going to require
your direct attention, whereasthe important has that
unfortunate knack of creeping upon you and what was, you know,
quite doable has suddenly becomequite urgent if you're not on
top of those things. And
Eleisha (19:14):
Yeah.
Jacqui (19:14):
I think probably the greatest thing and Prisca just
alluded to this as well, is thatit can be quite a lonely job,
and that loneliness part, Ithink, is if you're moving into
a school where you're new, youdon't yet know where the people
are who think like you, thosewho will challenge your thinking,
and both are equally important,and so that leadership skill of
(19:38):
figuring that out can be quitelonely. You also don't know what
people's experiences have beenbefore you came into that space,
because, you know, we've allspoken about this being a
continuum for the school, andour part just being a small
snapshot of that, but the peoplewho have been here before have
had experiences and the peoplewho come after will as well.
Eleisha (19:59):
Mm.
Jacqui (20:00):
So the leadership of acknowledging that past while
moving forward into the future,but still navigating who it is
that you can trust and doing itin a way that keeps everyone's
trust and confidence high, thatcan be challenging and feel a
little lonely as well. Good tohave people to support you
whether it's a partner or othercolleagues to make those
(20:24):
decisions easier, and as hasalready been said, a great
relationship with a presidingmember as well.
Eleisha (20:30):
Yeah , for sure. And your principals' associations,
and, yeah, and other principalsin your area and all of, you
know, all of those places thatyou can go for, kind of a
sympathetic ear. Hey.
Jacqui (20:42):
That's right. That's right, just a coffee a chat, a
did this ever happen to you, andalso that recognition that we're
all facing very similar issuesall the time.
Eleisha (20:52):
Yeah. Pr.
Prisca (20:53):
I agree with Jackie, um someone who used an analogy
about juggling balls and thenhaving to decide which ones were
plastic, which ones were glassand I and you know there are
some that actually you can kindof let drop and they'll survive
but for me it's that constant umactually one of my DPs has
diagnosed me as ADHD and I thinkit's a response for that, like
(21:17):
like having to shift in themoment between going you know
this is a plastic ball and it'sgoing to just have to drop on
the ground because there's aglass one coming and I and I
have to catch that, so and it'sthat kind being able to be
decisive enough to a) identifyand make sure you catch those
glass balls. So I think for me Iwas a bit protected from that in
the deputy principal's role, andand I again I had great
(21:39):
principals that I workedalongside and with so did a lot
of learning from them aroundthat but that's quite
challenging I think. I think theother thing is, when you're new
into both principalship and intoa school, it's sort of having
the confidence to be yourself.And I found myself in a
situation early on where someoneon the staff wanted me to
present something in a certainway and I sort of acquiesced
(22:00):
because it was only a smallrequest but it didn't feel like
me and I remember regretting itand thinking I don't need to be
anyone other than who I am, butlearning that that's okay and
learning to kind of be able tostand in your space and with
your values you know and beyourself within that leadership
role so being a good schoolprincipal but being you know
(22:22):
being you as well.
Eleisha (22:24):
Absolutely. Elena, do you want to add anything?
Elena (22:28):
Jackie talked about the value of talking to you know,
your colleagues and networksaround the nuts and bolts of
principal ship, I wonder if oneof our more minor findings will
resonate with your listenersaround being bamboozled, not
necessarily their word by theamount of information that they
were supposed to know about andwanted to be on top of but
couldn't seem to get clarity onwhat was due or that it even
(22:50):
existed in the first place orwhere to look or who to talk to
or what the most up to dateversion was. So we heard stories
about time wasted on hold onphone calls to various people
that pointed them to someoneelse and then someone else again,
or on websites that didn't worktrawling through emails. So one
of our recommendations was totry and untangle this and I
believe the Ministry has beendoing some great work with the
(23:11):
sector to develop an online onestop shop information site for
principals, I believe that one'scalled the Principal Development
Map. I remember giving it aGoogle.
Eleisha (23:20):
Awesome. I'll pop that link in the show notes too.
Elena, Pris and Jacqui are goingto stay with us for the next
episode, where we'll talk aboutleading a school community,
resilience and ways aspiringprincipals can set themselves up
for successful principalship.See you then.
Kia ora, and welcome to The Principals, a podcast series
for aspiring and current seniorleaders and tumuaki in Aotearoa
New Zealand. I'm Eleisha McNeill.In this episode, we're talking
about pathways to principalship,and the key differences
experienced when an aspiringprincipal steps into the biggest
role in a school. I have threefabulous guests with me today.
(00:30):
Thank you for being here. Uhm,it would be great if you could
introduce yourselves, please.Maybe starting with you, Jacqui.
Jacqui (00:37):
Sure, um, kia ora koutou, ko Jacqui Brown tokū ingoa, ko
ahau te tumuaki o Te KuraTaitamawāhine o Puke Ariki New
Plymouth Girls' High School.We're around 1300 students,
about 150 staff across ourboarding hostel and school
context, and I'm coming up to myend of my fifth year as
(01:01):
principal and I absolutely lovemy job.
Prisca (01:03):
Kia ora koutou, ko Prisca McDonald tōku ingoa. I'm
just finished my third year asprincipal at Tawa Intermediate
in Wellington, u, we have 463students this year and you know,
being an intermediate, got itsglorious response to
opportunities for young people,bu it has the challenge of being
a school that's two years, sothat brings its own special
(01:24):
leadership challenges as well.Like Jacqui, love my job and
looking forward to sort of usingthis opportunity to reflect on
it to date as well.
Elena (01:34):
Uh, kia ora koutou, ko Elena Moretti tōku ingoa, ke Te
Tari Arotake Mātauranga, ahau emahi ana. I am the Director of
Engagement and Impact at theEvaluation Centre within the
Education Review Office. Sowe're the part of ERO that work
on national research andevaluation projects.
Eleisha (01:51):
Fantastic, thank you very much. Jacqui and Prisca, if
we start with you, justwondering about your own journey
to principalship and what pathsdid you take? Jacqui, start with
you.
Jacqui (02:04):
I suppose it was a fairly traditional path. I'd
worked through senior leadershiproles, probably spent nearly 15
years as deputy principal. I diddo some postgraduate study and
I'll be interested later to hearwhat Elena might say around the
usefulness of that, for me itprobably wasn't as helpful
(02:26):
personally as the hands-onexperience that I had as a
senior leader in schools.
Eleisha (02:33):
Fantastic. Prisca, how did you get to where you are?
Prisca (02:36):
I don't know, some days I'm still a little bit confused
by that. But in reality it's Ithink because I've always been
fascinated actually withcurriculum and teacher practice.
So I took on a deputyprincipal's role in Christchurch
that was particularly focused onthat that was when the 2007
curriculum came out. And so Isort of kind of segued into that
(02:56):
leadership space via the sort ofcurriculum development space.
And moved up to the North Islandprincipal, was deputy principal
at a full primary. And thenspent a couple of years at the
Teaching Council, so that wasquite an interesting experience.
But that was really importantfor me I think around system
level leadership and looking atthe education system, not just
(03:19):
the sort of delivery of teachingand learning within a school so
that was a great bit ofprofessional development.
Eleisha (03:25):
Absolutely. So both quite traditional paths through
senior leadership intoprincipalship. Jacqui, when you
first started in that seniorleadership role, when you moved
from that role into being aschool what was that transition
like? Did you find it difficult?
Jacqui (03:44):
At the time it probably felt incredibly difficult, but
as I reflect back on it now, itwas probably one of those things
that was just a natural stepthat you take. I suppose having
spent so long as a DP, and infact I was very happy as a DP, I
had for a long time thought thatI probably wouldn't take the
(04:04):
step to a principalship. I'deven done one of the very early
pilot aspiring principal courses,and actually at that time felt
that it probably wasn't for me,I'd left it for quite some years,
but I just reached a naturalpoint where I was like,
"Actually this is something Iwould like to do," and I was
very considered in the schoolsthat I applied to, and people
(04:26):
that I've worked with over timehave been absolutely adamant
from the day that they firststepped into a classroom that
their goal was to be a principal,and I've watched their journeys
and the way that they've takenthe first job that they could
apply for and get, whereas forme it wasn't like that. So I
suppose because I thinking thewhole time about the school and
(04:47):
the fit, then yes, there was alot to learn, and so much that
you don't know until you realizeyou don't know it, but actually
the journey felt reasonablysmooth for me, well particularly
in hindsight.
Eleisha (05:02):
hindsight is always
Jacqui (05:03):
Yeah,
Eleisha (05:03):
great,
Jacqui (05:04):
absolutely
Eleisha (05:04):
Prisca, what about you
Prisca (05:07):
Similar, in many respects. I I think because I'd
always followed my interests andpassions in terms of leadership,
it just felt a natural next stepfor want of a better word. I
think really it was sort of morethe mechanics of some of the
role that, that was perhaps the,the the newness and the thing
that was difficult to get togrips with. Like Jackie, I only
(05:28):
applied to a couple of schoolsthat I really was interested in,
and so it felt like it wassupposed to be,
Eleisha (05:33):
Mmm
Prisca (05:33):
that sounds very fairytale-ish, but you know it
did feel like it was, it wascoming into a place where I
could contribute to a community.
Eleisha (05:39):
That's fantastic. And what do you think was the
biggest shock or surprise whenyou stepped into the role,
Prisca?
Prisca (05:45):
Um, actually, something that still perterbs me, and I
don't know whether this is a NewZealand thing, but is how the
role is sort of seen by others.So there's a level sort of
dererence that people havetowards you the minute you say
you're a principal and this kindof almost assumption that you
know stuff, and particularlystuff like about property or,
(06:06):
you know, pay or HR and I alwaysfind that sort of quite amusing
that just because you have thissort of positional leadership
role, there's an assumption thatyou know all things about it,
and that's kind of scary. Ithink probably the thing that
was, it's not entirely different,but a little bit sort of
sidestep from the deputyprincipal role is that I, you
know, I was pretty much used toanyone in education spends long
(06:27):
hours and over the course of theweek, they kind of ebb and flow
but I have found increasinglythat if I don't pull time in a
weekend then actually it's I'mplaying catch up all the next
week and while I sort of knewthat would happen, I feel like
in my DP roles I was able tokind of shift things into the
working day largely, whe withthe principal role I feel like a
(06:47):
lot of the sort of quietreflection time or the planning
time that's needed I actuallyneed to do that in the weekend,
but I sort of, sort of knew thatwas going to happen but maybe
not to the extent it has.
Eleisha (06:58):
What about you, Jackie, was it similar for you?
Jacqui (07:00):
In terms of the time spent yes, I've probably always
spent a bit too much time onwork, but a colleague of mine
said that it's not work-lifebalance, it's work-life
satisfaction, and I really likethat, that idea that if you're
satisfied with the amount oftime you're putting into each
space so that you feel satisfiedwith the outcomes that you get
(07:23):
then you've got it in balancefor yourself, and so I probably
go for that more. For meprobably the thing that
surprised me a little bit morewas really the variety of the
things that you're doing in asingle day. You know even as a
DP you could spend a day doingsomething, but as a principal
(07:43):
you find yourself flicking asyou change from meeting to
meeting or from email to email,just like even as I think about
what I've done this morning, I'mthinking about seven different
things that range from propertyto planning a strategic planning
day to talking to a parent aboutthe behaviour of their daughter,
to thinking through an HR matter,to approving access to bank
(08:07):
accounts, and that's all just inone morning. And while
Eleisha (08:11):
Yeah.
Jacqui (08:11):
I
Eleisha (08:11):
[Laughs]
Jacqui (08:11):
knew that was going to be it, I think the variety of
the things that you think aboutand the way that people expect
you just to be able to pick up aconversation you might have had
with them two weeks ago, as ifyou just had it
Eleisha (08:25):
[Laughs]
Jacqui (08:25):
yesterday is one of the real challenges. A fun challenge,
bu certainly something that Iprobably wasn't quite prepared
for.
Eleisha (08:34):
Yeah, absolutely. And how would you describe the
fundamental difference betweenbeing a senior leader in a
school versus being theprincipal? You know, what's the
difference when the buck stopswith you, I guess. Jacqui?
Jacqui (08:47):
I think for me it's about trying to think ahead a
little bit more. As a deputyprincipal you're always keen to
protect the school, theprincipal, those around you, but
now I probably feel a little bitmore responsible to everyone and
the school and its reputation,not just now, but its legacy
into the future. So I feel alittle bit more responsible and
(09:09):
more of a guardian because ofthe time you have in the role.
And I think as you said, youknow when the buck truly stops
with you, that's when you startto feel that a little bit more.
Prisca (09:20):
Yes, I agree with that and I think the responsibility
thing I think one of theinteresting things has been that
there's that beautiful Māoriproverb but about walking into
the future but with your eyesfirmly fixed in the past and
it's that sort of, you're partof a continuum of people that
will lead in a school, and howdo honour the past and take the
school forward so that, that'skind of a responsibility beyond
(09:43):
time in, in a funny way in thatspace. That's a big difference,
but I also think the breadth ofrelationships and in part
because of the breadth of tasksthat you have as a principal but
just this huge range ofrelationships right through from
parents, through to staff,through to students, through to
business owners, through toMinistry and agencies and all
(10:05):
those different spaces andplaces. I think as a deputy
principal I only hadrelationships within a smaller
sphere
Eleisha (10:10):
Mm-hmm.
Prisca (10:11):
but that breadth has certainly been different.
Eleisha (10:13):
I bet it has. Um, and Elena, a couple of years ago,
ERO did some research on newprincipals. Who did you talk to,
and what were you looking at inthat research?
Elena (10:24):
Sure. Um back in 2023, the principal population was
changing, so we have had a bunchof our more experienced
principals move into retirement,more and more new principals
coming in. And there was amassive, I would say, increase
in the proportion of theprincipal population that is
(10:46):
within their first five years onthe job. And so that prompted us
to do this piece of research,which was looking at the
pathways that our new principalsare taking into the role, what
they look like, and how wellthose are preparing them for the
realities of the job, and thenhow their sense of preparedness
and a sense of confidence in arange of different areas around
(11:07):
the role shift and grow fromtheir first day walking in,
putting their feet under thedesk right up to five years.
years. We surveyed almost 600new principals, so that's over
two thirds of all new principalsin New Zealand, and we also
talked to board chairs, so keyexperts and we looked at some
local and international evidenceas well around pathways and
(11:29):
supports for these sorts ofpositions and how we compare to
different countries.
Eleisha (11:33):
did
yeah. And what did that researchfind?
Elena (11:36):
It was a really interesting one. So most of our
new principals came through thattraditional pathway that Jacqui
mentioned, and so through aleadership role. But we still
found that around a quarter ofour new principals still feel
that they're not prepared to dothe role when they start, and
there are some particular areasthat are not so confident in
once they're in the hot seat,and even in those first few
years, a the good news is thatconfidence does grow over time.
(12:00):
Interestingly, the areas wherepreparedness and confidence, uh,
were lower were around workingin partnership with Māori, and
those legal and administrativeparts of the role, which aren't
really part of your everyday jobwhen you're a DP, a senior
leader or a teacher. What we didfind was that confidence was
particularly high in those areasaround working with students,
(12:22):
building relationships withstudents, whānau, and the
school community, those thingsare part of your everyday role,
so people come in feeling prettygood about those ones. So we
found that confidence growsheaps over those first five
years, particularly around thoseengine room aspects, so the
legal requirements, dealing withstaffing and property and admin,
but we definitely heard that thelearning curve could feel more
(12:43):
painful than it should be, butthere are some things that do
help, like postgraduateprogrammes, coaching, mentoring,
and basically anything thatinvolves connecting with other
principals, ones that understandyour context, maybe are new like
you, ones that are experienced,that can give you advice, it's
that connection that's reallykey.
Eleisha (13:00):
Yeah, all of the principals that I've spoken to
have mentioned that as a keything, you know, that's helped,
that's helped their comfortlevels, having that someone to
bounce things off.
Elena (13:08):
So that's where some of the concerns come in around the
findings that we had aroundsmall schools. So when we
separated out our findings there,we found that the preparedness,
the confidence, the wellbeing,things aren't going so well for
those new principals that are inthose smaller settings.
Eleisha (13:26):
So
Elena (13:26):
So we know that they've got a range of tasks and
responsibilities that aredifferent and broader, and
there's usually a teachingcomponent as well. And then also
there's the isolation, accessissues. And sometimes the
experience that they come withfrom an urban or larger school
won't match up so well withtheir new role being in charge
of a small possibly rural, quitedifferent setting than they're
(13:47):
used to.There's some really coolwork that's happening, but yeah,
there's some work to issues. Oneof the One of the findings that
I find, um, most interesting, ifnot particularly surprising, was
that when we talked to theschool board chairs and
presiding members about howtheir principals were going in
terms of how confident they were,what they thought their
well-being was like, those boardchairs and presiding members
(14:10):
were like, yeah, no, they'regreat. They know exactly what
they're doing and they're goinghome smiling every day. And then
when we compared those resultsto, uh, what the principals were
saying themselves, it was a verydifferent picture. So that's
just a sprinkle of the findings.It is a big report and we made a
range of recommendations aroundwhat needs to shift around those
(14:31):
pathways and supports. Sothere's a short summary for
leaders or the report itselfthere on our ERO evidence
website if you give that one aGoogle.
Eleisha (14:39):
Yeah. And I'll put that in the show notes as well. Um,
Jackie and Prisca, what wouldyou say about those findings? Is
there anything in there thatmade you, you know, go? What? Or
was it all pretty much yourexperience? Jackie.
Jacqui (14:54):
I think most of it resonated with me, I think
particularly in the idea oftalking with other principals,
One of the other things that Ifound was that the parts that we
were feeling least confidentwith as beginning principals
were probably the things thatexperienced principals still
(15:14):
struggle with as well. That ideaof consultation and
communication with yourcommunity is getting harder and
harder as people's lives arebusier, you know, iwi, hapū,
they are all incredibly timepoor, pulled in multiple
directions, so things thatbeginning principals find hard
so do experienced principals. Ithink too the other part around
(15:37):
the lack of preparation, I thinkit's probably the same in any
organisation, but schools can'tafford to have two people doing
the same job just to givesomeone the experience, so a lot
of the time you haven't had theopportunity, yes, you might have
worked alongside someone on aproperty project, but you
weren't the one making thedecisions, you weren't involved
(15:58):
in every step of the way. Sothose parts there, you know, it
all makes complete and uttersense,but I think the enjoyment
when you get there makes it allworthwhile.
Eleisha (16:09):
That's so good. Pr, what about you? What did you,
were there any of those findingsthat made you?
Prisca (16:16):
I was intrigued by the commentary from board chairs or
presiding members around anassumption again that the
principal's doing okay. It isquite a sort of lonely job on
many levels and so I thinkparticularly in those first -
I'm going to call myself newstill, I'm three years in but
(16:36):
you sort of finding your feetand you're finding those
networks and those relationshipsthat that do contribute to your
growth but you're also finding,trying to find a pathway for the
school, and it's challenging tohave that sort of really open
explicit conversation with thepresiding member and I came in
sort of six months before westarted talking about board
(16:57):
elections, so it was just thisbig shift and change that we
were already looking at in termsof that relationship as well so
I think that's quite unique inNew Zealand is that sort of
autonomy of each school but itdoes mean each school sort of
every three years has a shiftand you have to kind of redo
relationships and re engage withpeople at quite a strategic
(17:18):
level in terms of talking aboutthe school and where it needs to
go, so that's an interesting andI don't I didn't have any sort
of professional development inthat kind of thinking or in the
management of that relationship.Fortunately I had magnificent
presiding members and that lentitself really well being able to
build a trusting open sort ofrelationship but I can imagine
(17:41):
that could be problematic, youknow in the early days for
someone who was really new andparticularly if you had a
presiding member that was new,it's sort of like the blind
leading the blind you know canbe catastrophic not in my case
fortunately.
Eleisha (17:52):
[Laughs] You know, we talked a little bit about, kind
of skills and things like that.Were there any kind of key
leadership skills that you hadto develop that you hadn't
needed in your previous seniorleadership roles, and if so,
which of those were hardest to,kind of, master, Jacqui?
Jacqui (18:10):
I think probably I'd had the opportunity to explore some
of those skills in the otherroles, but the real challenge is
being on the top of your gameall day, every day, and when
you're not, admitting whenyou're not, and, you know, if
you've got it wrong, that can goa really long way I think. But I
(18:33):
think more importantly probablyis figuring out the balance
between the urgent and theimportant, I think as a DP
you're guided a little bit byyour principal about how your
time is spent, whereas as theprincipal you've not only got to
do those things, but figure outwhat the urgent is and what the
important is and how to get thatbalance right, because the
(18:57):
urgent is always going to bethere, but it's going to require
your direct attention, whereasthe important has that
unfortunate knack of creeping upon you and what was, you know,
quite doable has suddenly becomequite urgent if you're not on
top of those things. And
Eleisha (19:14):
Yeah.
Jacqui (19:14):
I think probably the greatest thing and Prisca just
alluded to this as well, is thatit can be quite a lonely job,
and that loneliness part, Ithink, is if you're moving into
a school where you're new, youdon't yet know where the people
are who think like you, thosewho will challenge your thinking,
and both are equally important,and so that leadership skill of
(19:38):
figuring that out can be quitelonely. You also don't know what
people's experiences have beenbefore you came into that space,
because, you know, we've allspoken about this being a
continuum for the school, andour part just being a small
snapshot of that, but the peoplewho have been here before have
had experiences and the peoplewho come after will as well.
Eleisha (19:59):
Mm.
Jacqui (20:00):
So the leadership of acknowledging that past while
moving forward into the future,but still navigating who it is
that you can trust and doing itin a way that keeps everyone's
trust and confidence high, thatcan be challenging and feel a
little lonely as well. Good tohave people to support you
whether it's a partner or othercolleagues to make those
(20:24):
decisions easier, and as hasalready been said, a great
relationship with a presidingmember as well.
Eleisha (20:30):
Yeah , for sure. And your principals' associations,
and, yeah, and other principalsin your area and all of, you
know, all of those places thatyou can go for, kind of a
sympathetic ear. Hey.
Jacqui (20:42):
That's right. That's right, just a coffee a chat, a
did this ever happen to you, andalso that recognition that we're
all facing very similar issuesall the time.
Eleisha (20:52):
Yeah. Pr.
Prisca (20:53):
I agree with Jackie, um someone who used an analogy
about juggling balls and thenhaving to decide which ones were
plastic, which ones were glassand I and you know there are
some that actually you can kindof let drop and they'll survive
but for me it's that constant umactually one of my DPs has
diagnosed me as ADHD and I thinkit's a response for that, like
(21:17):
like having to shift in themoment between going you know
this is a plastic ball and it'sgoing to just have to drop on
the ground because there's aglass one coming and I and I
have to catch that, so and it'sthat kind being able to be
decisive enough to a) identifyand make sure you catch those
glass balls. So I think for me Iwas a bit protected from that in
the deputy principal's role, andand I again I had great
(21:39):
principals that I workedalongside and with so did a lot
of learning from them aroundthat but that's quite
challenging I think. I think theother thing is, when you're new
into both principalship and intoa school, it's sort of having
the confidence to be yourself.And I found myself in a
situation early on where someoneon the staff wanted me to
present something in a certainway and I sort of acquiesced
(22:00):
because it was only a smallrequest but it didn't feel like
me and I remember regretting itand thinking I don't need to be
anyone other than who I am, butlearning that that's okay and
learning to kind of be able tostand in your space and with
your values you know and beyourself within that leadership
role so being a good schoolprincipal but being you know
(22:22):
being you as well.
Eleisha (22:24):
Absolutely. Elena, do you want to add anything?
Elena (22:28):
Jackie talked about the value of talking to you know,
your colleagues and networksaround the nuts and bolts of
principal ship, I wonder if oneof our more minor findings will
resonate with your listenersaround being bamboozled, not
necessarily their word by theamount of information that they
were supposed to know about andwanted to be on top of but
couldn't seem to get clarity onwhat was due or that it even
(22:50):
existed in the first place orwhere to look or who to talk to
or what the most up to dateversion was. So we heard stories
about time wasted on hold onphone calls to various people
that pointed them to someoneelse and then someone else again,
or on websites that didn't worktrawling through emails. So one
of our recommendations was totry and untangle this and I
believe the Ministry has beendoing some great work with the
(23:11):
sector to develop an online onestop shop information site for
principals, I believe that one'scalled the Principal Development
Map. I remember giving it aGoogle.
Eleisha (23:20):
Awesome. I'll pop that link in the show notes too.
Elena, Pris and Jacqui are goingto stay with us for the next
episode, where we'll talk aboutleading a school community,
resilience and ways aspiringprincipals can set themselves up
for successful principalship.See you then.
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