September 1, 2025 • 31 mins
In this episode of The Principals Aotearoa, Eleisha speaks with Jan Robertson, author of Coaching leadership: Building educational leadership capacity through partnership, discussing how coaching partnerships between educational leaders create powerful opportunities for reflective practice, help bridge the gap between what principals say they believe and what they do, and how coaching partnerships can transform school culture while building leadership capacity across the education system.
This podcast was produced for the Ministry of Education.
You can learn more by accessing the e-learning modules for principals on the Education LMS: https://training.education.govt.nz
Additional information The three Rs for coaching-learning relationships https://www.educationalleaders.govt.nz/Culture/Leading-staff/Coaching-learning-relationships
Coaching with a peer partner https://www.educationalleaders.govt.nz/Culture/Developing-leaders/Coaching-leaders
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eleisha (00:08):
Kia ora, and welcome to The Principals, a podcast series
for aspiring and current seniorleaders and tumuaki in Aotearoa
New Zealand. I'm Eleisha McNeilland today I'm speaking with Jan
Robertson, author of CoachingLeadership, Building Educational
Leadership Capacity throughPartnership. Lovely to have you
with me, Jan. Would you like tostart by introducing yourself
(00:30):
and telling us a little bitabout you?
Jan (00:33):
Kia ora koutou, e ngā waka, e ngā reo, e ngā mana,
kāwanatanga maha, tēnā koutoukatoa. Ko Te Aroha taku maunga,
ko Waihou taku awa, ināianeikei Waiheke Island. Ko Huruhi
taku moana, ko Piritahi takuMarae, ko Ngāti Pāoa i te iwi
(00:53):
o te whenua, ko Jan Robertsonahau. Tēnā koutou, tēnā
koutou, tēnā koutou katoa.I've been a principal myself,
and a little piece of my heartis still in that community of
Waipipi on the Manukau peninsula.I've had 20 years in schools and
20 years in universities. I'vetaught mostly in primary schools,
(01:15):
I was a teacher, a syndicateleader, a principal. And then in
tertiary education, I was ateacher educator, Dean of
education internationaldevelopment, head of department,
director of a leadership centre.And then I went to the other
side of the world to be thedirector of the London Center
for Leadership and Learning atthe University of London. And
(01:37):
since I returned home fromEngland in 2009, I've worked
independently as an leadershipconsultant from here on the
island.
Eleisha (01:46):
Wow, that's, yeah, what an impressive CV. Um, so
thinking back to when you werein schools and you were first
kind of thinking about becominga school leader, can you tell me
about the professionalleadership development that you
had at that time?
Jan (02:03):
Yes, Eleisha, there really was no such thing as leadership
when I started out, it was allmanagement or educational
administration. And the onlydevelopment that I got from my
then principal, when I won theprincipalship at Waipipi was him
telling me the differencebetween a school committee and a
parent teacher association. Thatwas about it. But I did have a
(02:26):
one week first time principalscourse, which was really great
to be on. And I had a verysupportive inspector of schools.
Eleisha (02:35):
Yeah, and was it your own experience that convinced
you that the traditional kind ofprofessional development at that
time wasn't meeting the needs ofschool leaders or was it
something else?
Jan (02:47):
Yes, it was definitely my own experiences. When I went
into the University, it was 1989and it was the very first year
of Tomorrow's Schools, and theGovernment gave money to all of
the Teachers Colleges throughoutNew Zealand to run a program
called the School ManagementDevelopment Project, and I
quickly asked if I could jointhat team and it was an amazing
(03:09):
time working with principals andboards of trustees. But the good
thing was at the end of thatproject, we had a small amount
of money remaining, and I wentto the then principal of the
Teachers College, and I askedher if I could set up a
leadership centre and keep goingwith this work with principals.
And she said yes, you know, Ilove your vision and that became
(03:30):
the first educational leadershipcentre in New Zealand.
Eleisha (03:33):
That's amazing. Why is that leadership development so
important for principals?
Jan (03:38):
Well, a lot of different reasons, mos it's around giving
them the support and challengethat's necessary to do the best
that they can in the work thatthey do. It's important in terms
of challenging their selfawareness around their practice
and getting them to be reallyreflective about their
leadership practice. It'simportant to work with them to
(04:01):
build capacity of their ownleadership and leadership in the
school. Help them to achievetheir annual and school goals
that they set, and really it's alifetime of learning.
Eleisha (04:12):
Yeah, for sure. So can you tell me what educational
leaders need to succeed?
Jan (04:19):
Yeah, that's the big question really isn't it? And I,
as I said, it's been my lifetimeof study. Both my masters and my
PhD were specifically how doprincipals learn to be the best
they possibly can be in thatrole. So with my masters, worked
on it with a cluster of schoolsin that tomorrow's schools
regime, that's how I picked upafter the school management
(04:40):
development project finished,interviewing them, offering them
professional development at thecentre, evaluating the offerings
that we did. And there was acouple of comments that our
principals made that reallystuck with me. And one principal
said, you know, I'd really liketo buddy with someone so that I
could go into their school and Icould look at what they were
(05:00):
doing. And then warts and all,they could come into my school,
and then we could have a realconversation about why we were
doing things in the way that wewere. And then another principal
quite sort of frankly said to me,to be honest Jan, everything
that you and others are offeringme over the course of my 30 year
career as a principal I've donein one way or another during
(05:24):
that lifetime. So he said unlessit comes along at the right time
to be right focussed where Iwant it to be, it's not going to
be something that I reallyembrace.
Eleisha (05:34):
Well,
Jan (05:34):
So pushed me really into starting to read about peer
assisted leadership development.leadership, or I called
professional partnerships, therewas no such word as coaching in
those days. That was a biginfluence, but the other big
influence was, I was academicdirector of the National
Aspiring Principals Program forsix years from 2011 to 2016, and
(05:59):
worked with about 1300 aspiringprincipals over that time, about
220 a year. They had anexperienced coach and they
learned also to coach with theirown peer coaches in that way.We
researched that program becausewe wanted to find out what did
principals, or very seniorleaders, need, to make them into
(06:19):
really successful transformativeleaders. We found there were six
dispositions that stood out. Andone was a moral purpose for
equity. Many of them said theyhad to believe they could make a
difference. The disposition tolearn that they came into their
principalship. We wanted them tobe lifelong learners and to
(06:41):
understand that principalshipwas about needing to learn the
way with their school and theircommunities. To be culturally
responsive in leadershippractice and to be able to talk
about how their commitment to TeTiriti o Waitangi was manifest
in their leadership practice.
Eleisha (06:58):
Yeah.
Jan (06:58):
And then there was the ability to build capacity within
themselves and others to makesuccessful shared leadership,
and a focus around principalidentity. And once
Eleisha (07:08):
Yeah.
Jan (07:08):
we knew that those six dispositions were really an
important part of thesesuccessful leaders in the
program, we were able to coachreally intentionally towards
those things as we went throughthe programme.
Eleisha (07:21):
That's really interesting. Um taking a step
back, can you just explain whatexactly is coaching?
Jan (07:28):
Well, at it's simplest definition it's really about at
least two people workingtogether on the improvement of
practice.
Eleisha (07:35):
Yeah.
Jan (07:36):
Or it could be for example a leadership advisor with a
school leader or it could be aprincipal with a teacher or it
could be a teacher with ateacher. And in the coaching
model I've developed it's aboutpartnership in that relationship,
a reciprocal learningpartnership where both parties
to the coaching are learningfrom each other. And the skills
(07:57):
are necessary to turn thatinteraction between those people
from just having a chat andtalking about teaching and
learning and leadership tocoaching
Eleisha (08:07):
Mm.
Jan (08:07):
and it's the skills that really make the difference.
Eleisha (08:10):
Yeah, and you mentioned there your coaching model. What
are the key ideas or principlesthat underpin your model of
coaching?
Jan (08:17):
So I said first they need the skills to be able to work
with each other differently, andI always start when I'm running
workshops or anything with withany groups of leaders say I'm
going to be asking you to workdifferently with each other than
the normal ways you mightinteract, because it is a role
that you take on as a coach andit's a really important one
(08:38):
because you're actually focusingon the other person's practice
through the whole course of thatsession, whereas in a
conversation what you'll oftenget is two people waiting for
the other one to stop talking sothat they can continue telling
their their story about theirpractice, so it's not simply
about them sitting havingconversations and telling each
other their stories in this way.The key principle in this model
(09:02):
is that the coach is a learner,not the expert who's coming in
telling people maybe how to leadtheir schools, and the
principals that I worked withwere really adamant that they
didn't really want somebodycoming into their school trying
to tell them that, they wantedsomeone to come in and work with
them and beside them helpingthem to be critically reflective
(09:23):
in that. So one of the mainprinciples is how do you enter a
relationship bringing yourexpertise into that and coming
in as a learner, so you need toknow the art of asking powerful
questions because your role asthe coach is to enable that
leader you're working with tocritically reflect on their
(09:44):
practice. So it's about knowinghow to create space within a
relationship where people canenter that relationship each
with their expertise and createnew knowledge together. The
model is also being comfortablewith complexity and change and
being comfortable with notknowing and being able to look
(10:05):
for the new answers to thechallenges. One of the aspects
of leadership is that we'reactually always a part of the
problems that we're trying todeal with, actually being part
of creating that issue or thatchallenge or that situation
that's in our schools. But theparadox is we have to be able to
have a different mindset and adifferent way of working so that
(10:27):
we can come up with thesolutions of how to address the
challenges that we're facing. Somy coaching model is about
challenging people to do thingsdifferently, like not always
just working harder and doingmore of the same. challenging
The important challenge throughthis coaching model is what are
you doing differently? What haveyou learned from last year in
(10:47):
your practice that you'reputting into practice this year?
What are you doing differentlythat's going to make a
difference to these students'learning? The other thing that's
behind this coaching practice isthe focus on educational
leadership. There are so manythings in a principal's daily
practice that takes them awayfrom their most important role,
and that is educationalleadership, the quality of
(11:10):
teaching and learning in theschool.
Eleisha (11:12):
Yeah. So, can you tell me a little bit what the
coaching process looks like ifthose coaches are using your
method and your model?
Jan (11:21):
Every coaching relationship develops really uniquely. And
when I'm working with principleson coaching and coaches on
helping them to coach moreeffectively I always say that,
you know, it's about beingyourself and being yourself with
skill. And realizing that yourrelationship and the way you
coach will be different from myrelationship with you and the
(11:43):
way that I coach. It starts, ofcourse, with finding a suitable
coach or setting up coachingpairs, you've got to have
somebody to coach with, andcoaches need skill development
so that they do have a kete ofpowerful questions that they can
ask each other. And they need toknow how to build a successful
learning relationship. And thebest way to learn coaching is
(12:06):
actually through coaching andthen critical reflection on the
coaching. So again, that wholeexperiential process is really,
real important. But, the pairsmeet, the coach asks maybe some
entry type questions like howare things going or what's been
on top for you this week. Butthen the coach really needs to
(12:26):
move really quickly into askingspecific questions about the
principal's or the seniorleader's leadership practice,
about their aims, the goals,their values, their vision so
that it becomes a reflectiveinterview where the coach is
creating that space between themwhere they can both meet to
(12:47):
co-construct new knowledge aboutpractice. I mean, they might
include a walk around the school.They may include observation
where the coach sits in on asenior leadership team meeting.
Or they might just focus onvarious incidences of recent
practice the principal has beeninvolved in.
Eleisha (13:04):
Yeah. Mm-mm.
Jan (13:05):
And then ultimately they will work together to establish
goals and work consistentlytowards them, monitoring their
progress and monitoring thecoaching relationship
development.I think that's areally important way that they
learn to coach how therelationship is developing as
well. One of the great thingswhen there's an outside coach
(13:27):
like say, a leadership advisorworking with a senior leader in
a school, is that the principallearns to coach, and the
principal realizes how powerfulit is to then be able to go and
work with their senior team inthis way.
Eleisha (13:39):
Yeah, it really is. Your book it talks about helping
leaders articulate their valuesand their beliefs about learning.
Why is that self-knowledge soimportant for effective
educational leadership?
Jan (13:53):
In all my work and all my university courses that I was
lecturer in, I always have had abig focus on the person in the
professional, knowing who theyare, knowing about their own
culture, knowing about their owneducation background, their
family and spiritual upbringing.It's really really important for
(14:15):
them to understand how itinfluences the way they work and
every decision they make in thatschool. And until they really
know on the platform thatthey're operating from, it's
very, very hard to work withthem on their leadership
development. They need to alsounderstand that all of the
people that they work with alsohave this platform of values,
(14:37):
beliefs and assumptions aboutteaching and learning. And
unless you are able to developthe sorts of learning
relationships where you cansurface those values and beliefs,
it's really hard get people tosee the importance of the
changes that they need to make.It's no use just giving
strategies to people and tellingthem to go and make these
(15:00):
changes in your teaching or yourleadership, because that just
doesn't happen. And that sooften can happen in professional
learning that teachers orleaders are told, now do all of
these things and then you'll beable to lead your school or
teach your class. And actuallyto get transformative change in
ourselves, we need to go througha much deeper process than that
(15:21):
in our adult learningexperiences. And that's where
coaching helps us to have thatreflective sort of observation
and abstract conceptualisationwhere we can see ourselves as
something different, and be ableto have the efficacy and agency
to be willing to try out a newway of being. The second thing
(15:43):
about values and beliefs isactually authenticity in
leadership's one of the mostimportant things for successful
leadership, that people actuallywant to know what are you like
as a person and why do you wantto be their leader. They want to
know your heart and where theirheart is in relation to the work
you do. And the most importantthing that you would see when
(16:05):
you opened any of those,multitude of leadership books on
any bookshop that you walk intoand you start looking at it,
self-awareness is number one.Knowledge of self, knowledge of
others, sort of go hand in hand.And also for me, therefore
leadership development isself-development,and great
leaders also seek out thosetimes that confront themselves
(16:28):
in their leadership. They seekout the places of not knowing in
order to find out who they are.Yea, so really good
transformative the research hasshown have a really good sense
of self. And we have to leadfrom our values and our school
values because that is ourbottom line in education that we
(16:49):
want the best learning outcomesfor all of our students.
Eleisha (16:54):
Definitely. And talking about beliefs, your research
shows that there's often a gapbetween what leaders say they
believe and then what theyactually do in practice. How
does coaching help close thatgap?
Jan (17:07):
Yeah. Well, we know we all have our espoused beliefs and
theories and assumptions aroundwhat good leading, teaching and
learning looks like. For example,we might know that consultative
decision-making is a reallyimportant thing for building
leadership capacity and sharedleadership among the people that
you work with. But the realitiescan show that that same
(17:30):
leadership practice is far fromconsultative in the day to day
of of everyday life in a school.So coaching actually just helps
us to realise that there is agap. And it's a very natural
thing. It's not a negative thing.Sometimes we're just not aware
enough about our practice. Wejust do the things we do. A lot
(17:51):
of the principals would say tome, "Jan, I didn't even realize
when you ask questions like so,how do you start the day? Well,
what do you mean? How do I startthe day? Just the way I always
start the day. You know, anduntil they went to go into
another principal's school, andthey saw another principal doing
a thing that they do in theirschool in quite a different way,
they realize that they do have aspecific way of leading. So
(18:15):
sometimes closing that gapthrough coaching might mean, um,
observation of others. It mightbe observation of yourself by
somebody else. It might comethrough getting feedback from a
coach or colleagues. The waycoaching can close the gap is
that that it raises our selfawareness of why we're doing
what we're doing in the waywe're doing it. And often where
(18:37):
we are just doing the things andunless the coach comes along and
says, why are you doing that inthat particular way, getting
them to articulate and justifywhy they do what they do in the
way that they do it, that thechange actually starts to happen.
Eleisha (18:54):
─ And you talked before about peer coaching. You
know, that feeling of isolationis something that's come up in
previous episodes a lot. Howdoes peer coaching help that?
And what makes more effectivethan some other forms of
professional support?
Jan (19:11):
Yeah, principals have told me time and time again as well
that there's few people thatthey can really trust to be able
to talk about the things thatwake them up at three in the
morning. And they do get wokenup at three in the morning, both
for some of ethical dilemmas andthe paradoxes that they're
facing within their practice.That's what they mean by it's
(19:31):
lonely at the top. There'snobody there to talk about. So
the great thing about coaching,whether that's an external coach
or a peer coach, can be both, isthat it builds the relational
trust up to an extent whereprincipals are willing to go to
those places of vulnerability,and be able to share what
(19:52):
matters most to them in theirprincipalship. I mean,
principals have describedcoaching to me in many different
ways, you know, they've saidit's quite cathartic. So that is
a real support when they feelalone that it's somebody to talk
to. I've heard time and timeagain that it's actually
somebody who is reallyinterested in your practice and
what you're doing and arefollowing you and tracking you,
(20:13):
which is something that's reallyimportant for them. Nobody
necessarily says to somebody inthe principalship, gosh, you
know, you're doing a great job
Eleisha (20:23):
yeah,
Jan (20:23):
and sees that process over time. It's challenging, and it's
affirming and principals like tobe challenged and affirmed in
the work that they do. Andbasically my thesis of my PhD
was really, it is about supportand challenge, which helps to
address those feelings ofisolation.
Eleisha (20:41):
yeah. Yeah, yeah, 100%. You mentioned earlier about
coaching keeping education atthe centre of practice. With the
daily pressures that come withmanaging a school that you've
touched on already, how doescoaching help leaders stay
focused on what matters most,which is obviously student
learning?
Jan (21:00):
Wel, that's where the skills of the coach are really
important and the importance ofthe coach recognizing that
rather just being reactive toproblems that a principal might
want they are able to listen anddirect them to their actual
practises of leadership withinthe school. So, and we found
(21:23):
this in the aspiring principlesprogramme too, that it was
actually easy to getside-tracked as a coach into
what's on and what's happeningand it's really important to
help keep in track, in focusaround their educational
leadership when all of otherthings like the building
developments and everything elsethat
Eleisha (21:43):
yeah,
Jan (21:43):
they're facing.
Eleisha (21:45):
yeah. Yeah, yeah, 100%. Earlier you touched on the
discussions between a coach andthe person they're coaching. You
know, ther a lot ofvulnerability there. And I
imagine that sometimes thediscussions can be quite
uncomfortable, so how do bothparties work through that kind
of discomfort?
Jan (22:04):
Yeah it was interesting because when I first started
with this thing calle coachingsome people said oh this is a
little bit fluffy and warm isn'tit and yet I haven't met a
single principal or seniorleader yet who has been coached
who have ever ever found alittle bit fluffy it's, you know,
they say it's extraordinarilychallenging. It's really
challenging having somebody comein and observe you in your
(22:27):
practice and these principalswould their coach come in and
watch them while they werehaving an ERO review for example,
running their senior leadershipteam meeting, they said that you
know often being shown up infront of their own colleagues
was one of the biggest fearsthey had and coaching really put
them on the vulnerable line whentheir coach was there observing
(22:50):
them or they were observingtheir coach. So I think it
really comes down to how strongthat uh relational trust is
because if you haven't taken thetime to build that up and your
the person you're working ismistrustful of the way you're
working, they will feelchallenged and in fact they can
still feel challenged when thetrust is really high, but it's
(23:13):
an uncomfortableness that theywould be willing to work through
because if the coaching has beendone really effectively it will
be the principal or leaderthemselves who says do you know
what, I've just had thisbreakthrough, I've just had this
light bulb go on, because theysee it themselves. They are the
(23:34):
ones who become criticallyreflective enough to be able to
say, you know this is what Ineed to do, I can see it now, I
can see how I've created thiswhole situation and now I think
I can go ahead and move in adifferent way to address what
I've done, because there's ahuge amount of dilemmas and
paradoxes in leadership thatprincipals are dealing with
(23:57):
every day. And you see aquestion I often ask them as a
coach, I say so, Eleisha, what'sthe hard question you should be
asking yourself at this moment?They come up with some really
hard questions that they knowshould be asking themselves,
even if that hard question isjust why aren't I getting on
with it? I've been talking aboutthis for so long and I haven't
(24:18):
done anything about it. How am Igoing to get started is that a
very common one.
Eleisha (24:22):
Yeah, I bet. Um, you've talked about powerful questions
a number of times. What are someexamples of powerful questions
that really help in developingthat relationship between the
coach and their partner?
Jan (24:35):
the the powerful questions that I'm interested in is how
the challenges the leader in arespectful, responsive way to
critically reflect on themselvesand their practice. So, what
would some of these questions be?I often asked this and I have
got lots of questions that I dogive out, but I say to them that,
(24:56):
look, a list of questions can'tbe a recipe. That if you're
truly actively listening as acoach to your leader, you'll
pick up on things in there andit might be something the leader
might say something just, oh andit was really frustrating in
that meeting when this happenedand that happened and the other
thing happened, the coach mayjust pick up on the emotion in
(25:19):
that and just like say, can youtell me a little bit more about
what you meant by frustrationand you know something that the
principal hadn't even realisedthey'd said, but it was there so
emotion is a way, and asking,how are you feeling about this
or how were you feeling? Howwould you like to feel? That can
help build relationship too thecoach and the leader, uh just
(25:43):
prompting know, briefly like, awhat else? Tell me more, you
know, they're not rocket science,they are questions that
ultimately you build up thatrepertoire in your kete. I've
often used questions like, on ascale of 1 to 10, how important
does this to you? On a scale of1 to 10, how willing are you to
put any time towards it? Youknow, just like that.
Eleisha (26:06):
Yeah. So aside from, you know, discussions possibly
becoming uncomfortable, whatother kinds of challenges can
come up in the coachingrelationship? Um, I'm imagining
time as one of them. What aresome of the other challenges
that you might come across?
Jan (26:20):
Yeah, well there are all sorts of challenges because it's
a relationship
Eleisha (26:24):
Yeah.
Jan (26:25):
and they're always challenging aren't they, because
we're people and we're uniqueand we can be reacting
differently on different days.relationship. But yep making a
commitment of time and keepingit is a really huge area for
challenge if it's not done byeither the coach or the leader
who was set up ready for thatcoach to come in and vice versa.
(26:47):
Keeping the stringency of thecoaching up is a really
important part. Sometimes theprincipals in my research used
to tease me and say well, whenyou're there Jan, we definitely
carry out these reflectiveinterviews in a really really
good way because I'm sayingyou're amazing, this is great,
but they said it's so easy justto slip into conversation and
chit-chat
Eleisha (27:06):
Yeah.
Jan (27:07):
about oh this is what I did when I was principal or or that
sort
Eleisha (27:10):
Yeah.
Jan (27:10):
of thing. So using the skills, that's really huge.
Understanding and making surethat the people we work with
understand that coaching is nota deficit program, that the
people involved with coaching asthe coaches and the leaders who
are being coached recognize itas a powerful professional
(27:32):
development support andchallenge for them in that
process.
Eleisha (27:36):
Rather than being something that shows weakness...
Jan (27:39):
Yeah, so exactly, we better get them a coach because, you
know, they're having troublethat sort of thing,
Eleisha (27:44):
yeah,
Jan (27:44):
that they don't, you know, that they feel that people might
think that that is the aspect.So I think it's always a really
important part for coaches atthe beginning of a coaching
relationship to make sure thattheir leaders understand that
coaching is just a powerful partof being a really good
professional. The otherchallenge is I guess sometimes
(28:05):
principals feel guilty abouttaking the time out to do this
coaching, that often withprincipals when the going gets
tough and the time gets tight,the first thing to drop off
their calendar list is their ownprofessional learning. So I
think that's important to saythat sometimes, you know,
coaching can help you gain time,by taking some time out to
(28:28):
critically reflect. And I thinkthe most way that a coaching
relationship could go wrong, isif there is no monitoring of the
relationship as they go through.Questions like the coach could
ask like, you know, so whatreally worked for you today in
our session, which question thatI asked today was really
powerful for you and made youreally stop and think? Is there
(28:50):
anything else that you wouldlike me to be thinking about for
our next session?
Eleisha (28:55):
yeah,
Jan (28:55):
So the coach is really showing, I'm going to learn
through the experience of thiswith you, because I want to be
the best coach ever as well asthe leader wanting to be as best
as they can be as well.
Eleisha (29:07):
Yeah, and what would you say to principals who are
kind of uncertain or they'renervous about getting involved
in a professional coachingrelationship either as a coach
or as someone who has a coach?
Jan (29:20):
I would say if they were nervous or uncertain to try it,
you know, and reflect on becauseuntil people try it, they might
always hold that uncertainty ornervousness about it. So try it
and see how it goes. I thinkthey would realise how powerful,
how very quickly it's powerful.Like anything, it takes time to
(29:44):
develop the skills, therelationship, and the more time
you put into it over the morepowerful it gets. And I see it
building capacity across thesystem like so if you've got a
group of people like theleadership advisors from the
Ministry of Education coming towork with senior leaders and
principals in this way, if theycome in as coaches learner, they
(30:07):
are learning and developingtheir leadership, their ability
to coach in the same time asthey're developing the
principals and their ability,the principals that are
developing their senior teamsand their teachers, and so on
and so forth. So if it's areciprocal learning and not just
a one way process, the system asa whole is building that
capacity.
Eleisha (30:27):
Yeah, absolutely. So probably the most important
question is if people areinterested in getting a coach,
finding a coach or being a coach,how can they go about that?
Jan (30:41):
Right. Well, there's lots of ways. Many principals and
senior leaders are in networksof people in similar positions
as themselves, group, so sooften there could opportunities
for coaching within there.Coaching is increasingly
becoming part of the Ministry ofEducation funded programs for
beginning principals, aspiringprincipals. There are centres at
(31:04):
many of the universities thatthat offer workshops and
professional learning principalsand leaders that incorporate
coaching in that practise.There's the New Zealand Coaching
and Mentoring Centre that offersworkshops and coaching and
executive leadership coaching,and then there are advisors and
in every region able to providethat really important role for
(31:27):
senior leaders and teachers inschools.
Eleisha (31:29):
Fantastic, so much amazing information, and I'm so
grateful you took the time.Thank you, Jan.
Jan (31:35):
Well, thank you very much.
Eleisha (31:36):
And the third edition of Jan's book, Co Leadership:
Building Educational LeadershipCapacity Through Partnership, is
hopefully going to come out in2026, so keep an eye out for
that. In the next episode, we'regoing to be talking about
turning around attendance. Māte wā.
Kia ora, and welcome to The Principals, a podcast series
for aspiring and current seniorleaders and tumuaki in Aotearoa
New Zealand. I'm Eleisha McNeilland today I'm speaking with Jan
Robertson, author of CoachingLeadership, Building Educational
Leadership Capacity throughPartnership. Lovely to have you
with me, Jan. Would you like tostart by introducing yourself
(00:30):
and telling us a little bitabout you?
Jan (00:33):
Kia ora koutou, e ngā waka, e ngā reo, e ngā mana,
kāwanatanga maha, tēnā koutoukatoa. Ko Te Aroha taku maunga,
ko Waihou taku awa, ināianeikei Waiheke Island. Ko Huruhi
taku moana, ko Piritahi takuMarae, ko Ngāti Pāoa i te iwi
(00:53):
o te whenua, ko Jan Robertsonahau. Tēnā koutou, tēnā
koutou, tēnā koutou katoa.I've been a principal myself,
and a little piece of my heartis still in that community of
Waipipi on the Manukau peninsula.I've had 20 years in schools and
20 years in universities. I'vetaught mostly in primary schools,
(01:15):
I was a teacher, a syndicateleader, a principal. And then in
tertiary education, I was ateacher educator, Dean of
education internationaldevelopment, head of department,
director of a leadership centre.And then I went to the other
side of the world to be thedirector of the London Center
for Leadership and Learning atthe University of London. And
(01:37):
since I returned home fromEngland in 2009, I've worked
independently as an leadershipconsultant from here on the
island.
Eleisha (01:46):
Wow, that's, yeah, what an impressive CV. Um, so
thinking back to when you werein schools and you were first
kind of thinking about becominga school leader, can you tell me
about the professionalleadership development that you
had at that time?
Jan (02:03):
Yes, Eleisha, there really was no such thing as leadership
when I started out, it was allmanagement or educational
administration. And the onlydevelopment that I got from my
then principal, when I won theprincipalship at Waipipi was him
telling me the differencebetween a school committee and a
parent teacher association. Thatwas about it. But I did have a
(02:26):
one week first time principalscourse, which was really great
to be on. And I had a verysupportive inspector of schools.
Eleisha (02:35):
Yeah, and was it your own experience that convinced
you that the traditional kind ofprofessional development at that
time wasn't meeting the needs ofschool leaders or was it
something else?
Jan (02:47):
Yes, it was definitely my own experiences. When I went
into the University, it was 1989and it was the very first year
of Tomorrow's Schools, and theGovernment gave money to all of
the Teachers Colleges throughoutNew Zealand to run a program
called the School ManagementDevelopment Project, and I
quickly asked if I could jointhat team and it was an amazing
(03:09):
time working with principals andboards of trustees. But the good
thing was at the end of thatproject, we had a small amount
of money remaining, and I wentto the then principal of the
Teachers College, and I askedher if I could set up a
leadership centre and keep goingwith this work with principals.
And she said yes, you know, Ilove your vision and that became
(03:30):
the first educational leadershipcentre in New Zealand.
Eleisha (03:33):
That's amazing. Why is that leadership development so
important for principals?
Jan (03:38):
Well, a lot of different reasons, mos it's around giving
them the support and challengethat's necessary to do the best
that they can in the work thatthey do. It's important in terms
of challenging their selfawareness around their practice
and getting them to be reallyreflective about their
leadership practice. It'simportant to work with them to
(04:01):
build capacity of their ownleadership and leadership in the
school. Help them to achievetheir annual and school goals
that they set, and really it's alifetime of learning.
Eleisha (04:12):
Yeah, for sure. So can you tell me what educational
leaders need to succeed?
Jan (04:19):
Yeah, that's the big question really isn't it? And I,
as I said, it's been my lifetimeof study. Both my masters and my
PhD were specifically how doprincipals learn to be the best
they possibly can be in thatrole. So with my masters, worked
on it with a cluster of schoolsin that tomorrow's schools
regime, that's how I picked upafter the school management
(04:40):
development project finished,interviewing them, offering them
professional development at thecentre, evaluating the offerings
that we did. And there was acouple of comments that our
principals made that reallystuck with me. And one principal
said, you know, I'd really liketo buddy with someone so that I
could go into their school and Icould look at what they were
(05:00):
doing. And then warts and all,they could come into my school,
and then we could have a realconversation about why we were
doing things in the way that wewere. And then another principal
quite sort of frankly said to me,to be honest Jan, everything
that you and others are offeringme over the course of my 30 year
career as a principal I've donein one way or another during
(05:24):
that lifetime. So he said unlessit comes along at the right time
to be right focussed where Iwant it to be, it's not going to
be something that I reallyembrace.
Eleisha (05:34):
Well,
Jan (05:34):
So pushed me really into starting to read about peer
assisted leadership development.leadership, or I called
professional partnerships, therewas no such word as coaching in
those days. That was a biginfluence, but the other big
influence was, I was academicdirector of the National
Aspiring Principals Program forsix years from 2011 to 2016, and
(05:59):
worked with about 1300 aspiringprincipals over that time, about
220 a year. They had anexperienced coach and they
learned also to coach with theirown peer coaches in that way.We
researched that program becausewe wanted to find out what did
principals, or very seniorleaders, need, to make them into
(06:19):
really successful transformativeleaders. We found there were six
dispositions that stood out. Andone was a moral purpose for
equity. Many of them said theyhad to believe they could make a
difference. The disposition tolearn that they came into their
principalship. We wanted them tobe lifelong learners and to
(06:41):
understand that principalshipwas about needing to learn the
way with their school and theircommunities. To be culturally
responsive in leadershippractice and to be able to talk
about how their commitment to TeTiriti o Waitangi was manifest
in their leadership practice.
Eleisha (06:58):
Yeah.
Jan (06:58):
And then there was the ability to build capacity within
themselves and others to makesuccessful shared leadership,
and a focus around principalidentity. And once
Eleisha (07:08):
Yeah.
Jan (07:08):
we knew that those six dispositions were really an
important part of thesesuccessful leaders in the
program, we were able to coachreally intentionally towards
those things as we went throughthe programme.
Eleisha (07:21):
That's really interesting. Um taking a step
back, can you just explain whatexactly is coaching?
Jan (07:28):
Well, at it's simplest definition it's really about at
least two people workingtogether on the improvement of
practice.
Eleisha (07:35):
Yeah.
Jan (07:36):
Or it could be for example a leadership advisor with a
school leader or it could be aprincipal with a teacher or it
could be a teacher with ateacher. And in the coaching
model I've developed it's aboutpartnership in that relationship,
a reciprocal learningpartnership where both parties
to the coaching are learningfrom each other. And the skills
(07:57):
are necessary to turn thatinteraction between those people
from just having a chat andtalking about teaching and
learning and leadership tocoaching
Eleisha (08:07):
Mm.
Jan (08:07):
and it's the skills that really make the difference.
Eleisha (08:10):
Yeah, and you mentioned there your coaching model. What
are the key ideas or principlesthat underpin your model of
coaching?
Jan (08:17):
So I said first they need the skills to be able to work
with each other differently, andI always start when I'm running
workshops or anything with withany groups of leaders say I'm
going to be asking you to workdifferently with each other than
the normal ways you mightinteract, because it is a role
that you take on as a coach andit's a really important one
(08:38):
because you're actually focusingon the other person's practice
through the whole course of thatsession, whereas in a
conversation what you'll oftenget is two people waiting for
the other one to stop talking sothat they can continue telling
their their story about theirpractice, so it's not simply
about them sitting havingconversations and telling each
other their stories in this way.The key principle in this model
(09:02):
is that the coach is a learner,not the expert who's coming in
telling people maybe how to leadtheir schools, and the
principals that I worked withwere really adamant that they
didn't really want somebodycoming into their school trying
to tell them that, they wantedsomeone to come in and work with
them and beside them helpingthem to be critically reflective
(09:23):
in that. So one of the mainprinciples is how do you enter a
relationship bringing yourexpertise into that and coming
in as a learner, so you need toknow the art of asking powerful
questions because your role asthe coach is to enable that
leader you're working with tocritically reflect on their
(09:44):
practice. So it's about knowinghow to create space within a
relationship where people canenter that relationship each
with their expertise and createnew knowledge together. The
model is also being comfortablewith complexity and change and
being comfortable with notknowing and being able to look
(10:05):
for the new answers to thechallenges. One of the aspects
of leadership is that we'reactually always a part of the
problems that we're trying todeal with, actually being part
of creating that issue or thatchallenge or that situation
that's in our schools. But theparadox is we have to be able to
have a different mindset and adifferent way of working so that
(10:27):
we can come up with thesolutions of how to address the
challenges that we're facing. Somy coaching model is about
challenging people to do thingsdifferently, like not always
just working harder and doingmore of the same. challenging
The important challenge throughthis coaching model is what are
you doing differently? What haveyou learned from last year in
(10:47):
your practice that you'reputting into practice this year?
What are you doing differentlythat's going to make a
difference to these students'learning? The other thing that's
behind this coaching practice isthe focus on educational
leadership. There are so manythings in a principal's daily
practice that takes them awayfrom their most important role,
and that is educationalleadership, the quality of
(11:10):
teaching and learning in theschool.
Eleisha (11:12):
Yeah. So, can you tell me a little bit what the
coaching process looks like ifthose coaches are using your
method and your model?
Jan (11:21):
Every coaching relationship develops really uniquely. And
when I'm working with principleson coaching and coaches on
helping them to coach moreeffectively I always say that,
you know, it's about beingyourself and being yourself with
skill. And realizing that yourrelationship and the way you
coach will be different from myrelationship with you and the
(11:43):
way that I coach. It starts, ofcourse, with finding a suitable
coach or setting up coachingpairs, you've got to have
somebody to coach with, andcoaches need skill development
so that they do have a kete ofpowerful questions that they can
ask each other. And they need toknow how to build a successful
learning relationship. And thebest way to learn coaching is
(12:06):
actually through coaching andthen critical reflection on the
coaching. So again, that wholeexperiential process is really,
real important. But, the pairsmeet, the coach asks maybe some
entry type questions like howare things going or what's been
on top for you this week. Butthen the coach really needs to
(12:26):
move really quickly into askingspecific questions about the
principal's or the seniorleader's leadership practice,
about their aims, the goals,their values, their vision so
that it becomes a reflectiveinterview where the coach is
creating that space between themwhere they can both meet to
(12:47):
co-construct new knowledge aboutpractice. I mean, they might
include a walk around the school.They may include observation
where the coach sits in on asenior leadership team meeting.
Or they might just focus onvarious incidences of recent
practice the principal has beeninvolved in.
Eleisha (13:04):
Yeah. Mm-mm.
Jan (13:05):
And then ultimately they will work together to establish
goals and work consistentlytowards them, monitoring their
progress and monitoring thecoaching relationship
development.I think that's areally important way that they
learn to coach how therelationship is developing as
well. One of the great thingswhen there's an outside coach
(13:27):
like say, a leadership advisorworking with a senior leader in
a school, is that the principallearns to coach, and the
principal realizes how powerfulit is to then be able to go and
work with their senior team inthis way.
Eleisha (13:39):
Yeah, it really is. Your book it talks about helping
leaders articulate their valuesand their beliefs about learning.
Why is that self-knowledge soimportant for effective
educational leadership?
Jan (13:53):
In all my work and all my university courses that I was
lecturer in, I always have had abig focus on the person in the
professional, knowing who theyare, knowing about their own
culture, knowing about their owneducation background, their
family and spiritual upbringing.It's really really important for
(14:15):
them to understand how itinfluences the way they work and
every decision they make in thatschool. And until they really
know on the platform thatthey're operating from, it's
very, very hard to work withthem on their leadership
development. They need to alsounderstand that all of the
people that they work with alsohave this platform of values,
(14:37):
beliefs and assumptions aboutteaching and learning. And
unless you are able to developthe sorts of learning
relationships where you cansurface those values and beliefs,
it's really hard get people tosee the importance of the
changes that they need to make.It's no use just giving
strategies to people and tellingthem to go and make these
(15:00):
changes in your teaching or yourleadership, because that just
doesn't happen. And that sooften can happen in professional
learning that teachers orleaders are told, now do all of
these things and then you'll beable to lead your school or
teach your class. And actuallyto get transformative change in
ourselves, we need to go througha much deeper process than that
(15:21):
in our adult learningexperiences. And that's where
coaching helps us to have thatreflective sort of observation
and abstract conceptualisationwhere we can see ourselves as
something different, and be ableto have the efficacy and agency
to be willing to try out a newway of being. The second thing
(15:43):
about values and beliefs isactually authenticity in
leadership's one of the mostimportant things for successful
leadership, that people actuallywant to know what are you like
as a person and why do you wantto be their leader. They want to
know your heart and where theirheart is in relation to the work
you do. And the most importantthing that you would see when
(16:05):
you opened any of those,multitude of leadership books on
any bookshop that you walk intoand you start looking at it,
self-awareness is number one.Knowledge of self, knowledge of
others, sort of go hand in hand.And also for me, therefore
leadership development isself-development,and great
leaders also seek out thosetimes that confront themselves
(16:28):
in their leadership. They seekout the places of not knowing in
order to find out who they are.Yea, so really good
transformative the research hasshown have a really good sense
of self. And we have to leadfrom our values and our school
values because that is ourbottom line in education that we
(16:49):
want the best learning outcomesfor all of our students.
Eleisha (16:54):
Definitely. And talking about beliefs, your research
shows that there's often a gapbetween what leaders say they
believe and then what theyactually do in practice. How
does coaching help close thatgap?
Jan (17:07):
Yeah. Well, we know we all have our espoused beliefs and
theories and assumptions aroundwhat good leading, teaching and
learning looks like. For example,we might know that consultative
decision-making is a reallyimportant thing for building
leadership capacity and sharedleadership among the people that
you work with. But the realitiescan show that that same
(17:30):
leadership practice is far fromconsultative in the day to day
of of everyday life in a school.So coaching actually just helps
us to realise that there is agap. And it's a very natural
thing. It's not a negative thing.Sometimes we're just not aware
enough about our practice. Wejust do the things we do. A lot
(17:51):
of the principals would say tome, "Jan, I didn't even realize
when you ask questions like so,how do you start the day? Well,
what do you mean? How do I startthe day? Just the way I always
start the day. You know, anduntil they went to go into
another principal's school, andthey saw another principal doing
a thing that they do in theirschool in quite a different way,
they realize that they do have aspecific way of leading. So
(18:15):
sometimes closing that gapthrough coaching might mean, um,
observation of others. It mightbe observation of yourself by
somebody else. It might comethrough getting feedback from a
coach or colleagues. The waycoaching can close the gap is
that that it raises our selfawareness of why we're doing
what we're doing in the waywe're doing it. And often where
(18:37):
we are just doing the things andunless the coach comes along and
says, why are you doing that inthat particular way, getting
them to articulate and justifywhy they do what they do in the
way that they do it, that thechange actually starts to happen.
Eleisha (18:54):
─ And you talked before about peer coaching. You
know, that feeling of isolationis something that's come up in
previous episodes a lot. Howdoes peer coaching help that?
And what makes more effectivethan some other forms of
professional support?
Jan (19:11):
Yeah, principals have told me time and time again as well
that there's few people thatthey can really trust to be able
to talk about the things thatwake them up at three in the
morning. And they do get wokenup at three in the morning, both
for some of ethical dilemmas andthe paradoxes that they're
facing within their practice.That's what they mean by it's
(19:31):
lonely at the top. There'snobody there to talk about. So
the great thing about coaching,whether that's an external coach
or a peer coach, can be both, isthat it builds the relational
trust up to an extent whereprincipals are willing to go to
those places of vulnerability,and be able to share what
(19:52):
matters most to them in theirprincipalship. I mean,
principals have describedcoaching to me in many different
ways, you know, they've saidit's quite cathartic. So that is
a real support when they feelalone that it's somebody to talk
to. I've heard time and timeagain that it's actually
somebody who is reallyinterested in your practice and
what you're doing and arefollowing you and tracking you,
(20:13):
which is something that's reallyimportant for them. Nobody
necessarily says to somebody inthe principalship, gosh, you
know, you're doing a great job
Eleisha (20:23):
yeah,
Jan (20:23):
and sees that process over time. It's challenging, and it's
affirming and principals like tobe challenged and affirmed in
the work that they do. Andbasically my thesis of my PhD
was really, it is about supportand challenge, which helps to
address those feelings ofisolation.
Eleisha (20:41):
yeah. Yeah, yeah, 100%. You mentioned earlier about
coaching keeping education atthe centre of practice. With the
daily pressures that come withmanaging a school that you've
touched on already, how doescoaching help leaders stay
focused on what matters most,which is obviously student
learning?
Jan (21:00):
Wel, that's where the skills of the coach are really
important and the importance ofthe coach recognizing that
rather just being reactive toproblems that a principal might
want they are able to listen anddirect them to their actual
practises of leadership withinthe school. So, and we found
(21:23):
this in the aspiring principlesprogramme too, that it was
actually easy to getside-tracked as a coach into
what's on and what's happeningand it's really important to
help keep in track, in focusaround their educational
leadership when all of otherthings like the building
developments and everything elsethat
Eleisha (21:43):
yeah,
Jan (21:43):
they're facing.
Eleisha (21:45):
yeah. Yeah, yeah, 100%. Earlier you touched on the
discussions between a coach andthe person they're coaching. You
know, ther a lot ofvulnerability there. And I
imagine that sometimes thediscussions can be quite
uncomfortable, so how do bothparties work through that kind
of discomfort?
Jan (22:04):
Yeah it was interesting because when I first started
with this thing calle coachingsome people said oh this is a
little bit fluffy and warm isn'tit and yet I haven't met a
single principal or seniorleader yet who has been coached
who have ever ever found alittle bit fluffy it's, you know,
they say it's extraordinarilychallenging. It's really
challenging having somebody comein and observe you in your
(22:27):
practice and these principalswould their coach come in and
watch them while they werehaving an ERO review for example,
running their senior leadershipteam meeting, they said that you
know often being shown up infront of their own colleagues
was one of the biggest fearsthey had and coaching really put
them on the vulnerable line whentheir coach was there observing
(22:50):
them or they were observingtheir coach. So I think it
really comes down to how strongthat uh relational trust is
because if you haven't taken thetime to build that up and your
the person you're working ismistrustful of the way you're
working, they will feelchallenged and in fact they can
still feel challenged when thetrust is really high, but it's
(23:13):
an uncomfortableness that theywould be willing to work through
because if the coaching has beendone really effectively it will
be the principal or leaderthemselves who says do you know
what, I've just had thisbreakthrough, I've just had this
light bulb go on, because theysee it themselves. They are the
(23:34):
ones who become criticallyreflective enough to be able to
say, you know this is what Ineed to do, I can see it now, I
can see how I've created thiswhole situation and now I think
I can go ahead and move in adifferent way to address what
I've done, because there's ahuge amount of dilemmas and
paradoxes in leadership thatprincipals are dealing with
(23:57):
every day. And you see aquestion I often ask them as a
coach, I say so, Eleisha, what'sthe hard question you should be
asking yourself at this moment?They come up with some really
hard questions that they knowshould be asking themselves,
even if that hard question isjust why aren't I getting on
with it? I've been talking aboutthis for so long and I haven't
(24:18):
done anything about it. How am Igoing to get started is that a
very common one.
Eleisha (24:22):
Yeah, I bet. Um, you've talked about powerful questions
a number of times. What are someexamples of powerful questions
that really help in developingthat relationship between the
coach and their partner?
Jan (24:35):
the the powerful questions that I'm interested in is how
the challenges the leader in arespectful, responsive way to
critically reflect on themselvesand their practice. So, what
would some of these questions be?I often asked this and I have
got lots of questions that I dogive out, but I say to them that,
(24:56):
look, a list of questions can'tbe a recipe. That if you're
truly actively listening as acoach to your leader, you'll
pick up on things in there andit might be something the leader
might say something just, oh andit was really frustrating in
that meeting when this happenedand that happened and the other
thing happened, the coach mayjust pick up on the emotion in
(25:19):
that and just like say, can youtell me a little bit more about
what you meant by frustrationand you know something that the
principal hadn't even realisedthey'd said, but it was there so
emotion is a way, and asking,how are you feeling about this
or how were you feeling? Howwould you like to feel? That can
help build relationship too thecoach and the leader, uh just
(25:43):
prompting know, briefly like, awhat else? Tell me more, you
know, they're not rocket science,they are questions that
ultimately you build up thatrepertoire in your kete. I've
often used questions like, on ascale of 1 to 10, how important
does this to you? On a scale of1 to 10, how willing are you to
put any time towards it? Youknow, just like that.
Eleisha (26:06):
Yeah. So aside from, you know, discussions possibly
becoming uncomfortable, whatother kinds of challenges can
come up in the coachingrelationship? Um, I'm imagining
time as one of them. What aresome of the other challenges
that you might come across?
Jan (26:20):
Yeah, well there are all sorts of challenges because it's
a relationship
Eleisha (26:24):
Yeah.
Jan (26:25):
and they're always challenging aren't they, because
we're people and we're uniqueand we can be reacting
differently on different days.relationship. But yep making a
commitment of time and keepingit is a really huge area for
challenge if it's not done byeither the coach or the leader
who was set up ready for thatcoach to come in and vice versa.
(26:47):
Keeping the stringency of thecoaching up is a really
important part. Sometimes theprincipals in my research used
to tease me and say well, whenyou're there Jan, we definitely
carry out these reflectiveinterviews in a really really
good way because I'm sayingyou're amazing, this is great,
but they said it's so easy justto slip into conversation and
chit-chat
Eleisha (27:06):
Yeah.
Jan (27:07):
about oh this is what I did when I was principal or or that
sort
Eleisha (27:10):
Yeah.
Jan (27:10):
of thing. So using the skills, that's really huge.
Understanding and making surethat the people we work with
understand that coaching is nota deficit program, that the
people involved with coaching asthe coaches and the leaders who
are being coached recognize itas a powerful professional
(27:32):
development support andchallenge for them in that
process.
Eleisha (27:36):
Rather than being something that shows weakness...
Jan (27:39):
Yeah, so exactly, we better get them a coach because, you
know, they're having troublethat sort of thing,
Eleisha (27:44):
yeah,
Jan (27:44):
that they don't, you know, that they feel that people might
think that that is the aspect.So I think it's always a really
important part for coaches atthe beginning of a coaching
relationship to make sure thattheir leaders understand that
coaching is just a powerful partof being a really good
professional. The otherchallenge is I guess sometimes
(28:05):
principals feel guilty abouttaking the time out to do this
coaching, that often withprincipals when the going gets
tough and the time gets tight,the first thing to drop off
their calendar list is their ownprofessional learning. So I
think that's important to saythat sometimes, you know,
coaching can help you gain time,by taking some time out to
(28:28):
critically reflect. And I thinkthe most way that a coaching
relationship could go wrong, isif there is no monitoring of the
relationship as they go through.Questions like the coach could
ask like, you know, so whatreally worked for you today in
our session, which question thatI asked today was really
powerful for you and made youreally stop and think? Is there
(28:50):
anything else that you wouldlike me to be thinking about for
our next session?
Eleisha (28:55):
yeah,
Jan (28:55):
So the coach is really showing, I'm going to learn
through the experience of thiswith you, because I want to be
the best coach ever as well asthe leader wanting to be as best
as they can be as well.
Eleisha (29:07):
Yeah, and what would you say to principals who are
kind of uncertain or they'renervous about getting involved
in a professional coachingrelationship either as a coach
or as someone who has a coach?
Jan (29:20):
I would say if they were nervous or uncertain to try it,
you know, and reflect on becauseuntil people try it, they might
always hold that uncertainty ornervousness about it. So try it
and see how it goes. I thinkthey would realise how powerful,
how very quickly it's powerful.Like anything, it takes time to
(29:44):
develop the skills, therelationship, and the more time
you put into it over the morepowerful it gets. And I see it
building capacity across thesystem like so if you've got a
group of people like theleadership advisors from the
Ministry of Education coming towork with senior leaders and
principals in this way, if theycome in as coaches learner, they
(30:07):
are learning and developingtheir leadership, their ability
to coach in the same time asthey're developing the
principals and their ability,the principals that are
developing their senior teamsand their teachers, and so on
and so forth. So if it's areciprocal learning and not just
a one way process, the system asa whole is building that
capacity.
Eleisha (30:27):
Yeah, absolutely. So probably the most important
question is if people areinterested in getting a coach,
finding a coach or being a coach,how can they go about that?
Jan (30:41):
Right. Well, there's lots of ways. Many principals and
senior leaders are in networksof people in similar positions
as themselves, group, so sooften there could opportunities
for coaching within there.Coaching is increasingly
becoming part of the Ministry ofEducation funded programs for
beginning principals, aspiringprincipals. There are centres at
(31:04):
many of the universities thatthat offer workshops and
professional learning principalsand leaders that incorporate
coaching in that practise.There's the New Zealand Coaching
and Mentoring Centre that offersworkshops and coaching and
executive leadership coaching,and then there are advisors and
in every region able to providethat really important role for
(31:27):
senior leaders and teachers inschools.
Eleisha (31:29):
Fantastic, so much amazing information, and I'm so
grateful you took the time.Thank you, Jan.
Jan (31:35):
Well, thank you very much.
Eleisha (31:36):
And the third edition of Jan's book, Co Leadership:
Building Educational LeadershipCapacity Through Partnership, is
hopefully going to come out in2026, so keep an eye out for
that. In the next episode, we'regoing to be talking about
turning around attendance. Māte wā.
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