September 29, 2025 • 32 mins
In this episode, we explore how educational leaders can move beyond tick-box compliance to genuinely embed Te Tiriti o Waitangi principles into their school culture. Our guests share their personal journeys, practical strategies, and honest reflections on what it truly means to create bicultural learning environments where all students thrive. Hosted by Mārama Stewart.
Today’s guests are:
- Billie-Jean Pōtaka Ayton, tumuaki of Kaiti School in Gisborne
- Mel Jewiss, former tumuaki and now Maori Achievement Collaborative (MAC) facilitator
- Robyn Isaacson, principal of Flaxmere Primary School
This podcast was produced for the Ministry of Education.
You can learn more by accessing the e-learning modules for principals on the Education LMS: https://training.education.govt.nz
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mārama (00:08):
Kia ora and welcome to The Principals, a podcast series
for current and aspiring tumuakiin Aotearoa, New Zealand. I'm
Mārama Stewart. Today, we'rediving into one of the most
fundamental aspects of oureducational leadership journey
in our country, the Tiriti oWaitangi, and what it means to
move beyond mere compliance intogenuine partnership. I'm joined
(00:31):
by three experienced principleswho've been navigating their own
Tiriti journeys. Tēna katoukatoa. Ngā mihi nui ki a koutou.
Welcome to our episode today.Billie-Jean, would you like to
start off by introducingyourself to us?
Billie-Jean (00:46):
Āe, ngā mihi nui ki a koutou, kua taite hui i
tēnei ahi, ko wai ahau, koNgongotahā te maunga, ko
Kaituna te awa, ko Te Arawa tewaka, ko Ngāti Whakaue te iwi,ko
Ngāti Whakaue ki Maketū tehapu, ko Whakaue te marae, ko
Billie-Jean Potaka-Ayton tōkuingoa, no Maketū ahau. He
(01:09):
tumuaki ahau i naīanei ki tekura o Puhi Kaiti nō te
Tairāwhiti. Nga mihi.
Mārama (01:17):
Ngā mihi Billie-Jean. And Mel, would you like to
introduce yourself today?
Mel (01:21):
Uh tēnā koutou, nō Ingarani, nō Kōtirana, nō
Aerani, nō Āwherika ki teTonga ōhoku tūpuna, uh –
kāi Ōtepoti tōku kāika ināianei, ko Mel Jewiss tōku
ikua, he Kaihoe Mātauraka ahauki Te Arahau Māori Achievement
Collaborative kei Ōtākou. Kiaora.
Mārama (01:42):
Kia ora, Robyn, would you like to introduce yourself
today?
Robyn (01:45):
Hi kia ora, I'm Robyn Isaacson, tumuaki of Te Kura o
Pāharakeke. I'm principal atFlaxmere Primary School. We're a
big school in the Hawke's Baywith Rumaki, Reo Rua, Vasega o
le Gagana Samoa classes, andEnglish medium. Kia ora.
Mārama (01:59):
Kia ora koutou. So today's episode we're talking
about our Tiriti o Waitangijourney. And I thought we'd just
start off with a little kōreroabout what Tiriti o Waitangi
means to you guys personally,and how that, perhaps that
understanding of our partnershipjourney in Te Tiriti, has been
(02:20):
for you as a leader. Billie Jean,would you like to get us started?
Billie-Jean (02:23):
Sure. So when I was younger, we didn't really talk
much about the Treaty as per se,but what we, we're orchardists
so we had to learn to bepartners with all sorts of
people back then when I wasgrowing up. So it was an
important thing wasrelationships for our family.
One thing we were made veryaware of was the disparities
between indigenous cultures andother people, other groups, and
(02:49):
that was because my motherworked intensively in the
kohanga reo movement, and withAborigines and Fijians over in
Fiji and Australia. So we weretaught that we were very lucky
what we had and that some peopledidn't have things for certain
reasons. When I became a teacher,I saw how important it was to be
ah, sharing my culture and mylanguage and our tikanga with
(03:12):
other cultures. So I workedpredominantly in South Auckland
and on the North Shore. Sothought you know, this is really
important that we get, we sharethe love that we have for this
taonga with other people andthen as a leader in a school you
know, you have to fight thefight every day to make sure
that the Treaty is upheld. Sowe're very much a Toitu te
(03:33):
Tiriti kura here at Kaiti. Ngāmihi.
Mārama (03:36):
Ngā mihi, that's wonderful to hear. And I like
the way that when you talkedabout the relationship and the
partnership, it wasn't justbetween Māori and Pakeha - you
mentioned other cultures. AndRobyn, yo have several
multi-lingual departments inyour school. How do you think
Tiriti and your personalleadership has affected your
kura?
Robyn (03:56):
It's a really good question because I think my
understanding of Te Tiriti, myfocus on it has changed. I
started here as a teacher wayback, probably 25 years ago at
Flaxmere Primary. And now wherewe are now, it just brings my
attention to everything, so muchnow that every judgement I make,
almost every decision I make, Imake sure that I've got that
aspect of giving effect to TeTiriti, at the front of what we
(04:17):
do, whether it's in my Vasega,whether it's in English medium,
because obviously we have alarge percentage of Māori
students in our kura. So it's,it affects everything,
regardless of what aspect of theschool that we're in. So once
upon a time, it was a compliancething, but now it's very much
about making honest judgmentsfor our tamariki.
Mārama (04:36):
Hmm. That's good to hear. Mel, how about you down in
the deep, de south?
Mel (04:39):
Ah, kia ora. So I guess for me, like Billy Jean, I think it
goes back to my experiences overmy life. My early life was spent
in Ruataniwha in Twizel. Andmany whānau who lived in Twizel
did whakapapa Maōri. But Iprobably didn't know too much
about it at the time, but whatstayed with me really was that
(05:00):
my parents had really positiveattitudes towards Takata Māori
and a high level of respect forMāori in our community. And I
think that stayed with me. But Ididn't have experiences in te ao
Māori myself at that time.Thengoing through my education
journey, I was very interestedin history and undertook a
(05:22):
history degree, but my highschool teachers, I later learnt,
gave me a balanced balancedhistory of our country, from te
ao Māori and te ao Pākeha,which I think influenced me then
along the journey working inkura with higher numbers of
ākoka Māori has led me to aplace where I've developed a
(05:45):
really strong interest inlearning much more about Te
Tiriti and the partnerships thatwe can all be engaged in,
whether we are Māori or TakataTiriti, so building my journey
of my own identity has been partof that journey as well.
Mārama (06:00):
It's a very similar theme, I think, we've had across
all of the conversations is howimportant our early years as
educators have affected ourjourneys as leadership, leaders,
excuse me, in our kura and howthat can perhaps influence quite
major decisions within yourschool and within our honouring
(06:21):
off Te Tiriti. Can any of youperhaps give an example of early
journey has influenced you inyour current positions?
Robyn (06:29):
Reflecting back, I think very much, like I say in the
beginning, it was about how youcomply with what the
requirements are for the Treaty,whereas now it's that
understanding, we used to bring,when I think of whānau
engagement. It was very muchabout holding a workshop on
something and seeing how manywhānau turned up, because
(06:49):
that's what we wanted to do.We've made a huge shift in the
fact that we now have really,really successful whānau hui,
we can have three or fourhundred of our whānau here on
site, and it's because we'vestopped asking, and actually
started listening, and knowingthat if we're really going to
give effect to Te Tiriti, weneed to sit back and we need to
find out what the aspirationsare for our whānau. And do the
(07:12):
listening rather than the asking,and that's just been a huge
shift for us, and a hugelearning curve, and because
we've moved away from compliance,it's actually authentically
genuinely, we want to know howwe can do better, and
particularly in line with howwe're honouring Te Tiriti o
Waitangi.
Mārama (07:26):
That's quite a brave move, you know, like opening
yourself to not predicting whatmay come out of that, that kind
of consultation and conversation.Often that can be a bit leading,
but congratulations for takingthat step. Billie-Jean, did you
want to add something?
Billie-Jean (07:42):
Yeah. We, um we run whānau hui a little bit
different at our school. So it'sa 60 minute hui where we don't
talk. So we put ourselves aroundthe outside of the turf or the
hall wherever we decide to havethe hui, if it's in summer, it's
outside. And we have our staffstationed and board members
around the outside and whānauvisit in little groups and they
(08:04):
share their aspirations, theirdreams, their bad feedback,
their good feedback about thekura and the strategic direction
the kura is taking. So, and wehave around 200 whānau show up
and they know it's 60 minutes,so they know they're not going
to be sitting there listening tome going on all afternoon and
into the evening and then wehave a kai or something at the
(08:25):
end. So pretty much what Robynsaid really genuine kōrero, not
telling whānau what to do, butactually getting them to give us
really a feedback that we'regoing to follow up on and act on
in the future.
Mārama (08:37):
Thank you. And Mel how do your whānau kōrero go?
Mel (08:41):
A, kia ora, I was reflecting as I was listening to
Robyn and Billie-Jean about theimportance of building knowledge
and understanding and knowingthe why, why we do what we do,
in whatever space we are in,because when, when everyone
understands the purpose, thenthat can guide what happens. And
(09:04):
then the other thing I wasthinking of was just the
importance of doing the rightthing and being the right thing,
so rather than in thatcompliance space, that the
actions that are taken in a kura,that the hui that are held,
that the engagement that takesplace is for the right reason.
Mārama (09:24):
And it's really awesome, it's like you've moved away from
compliance because it soundslike your whole community really
actually values the relationshipnow rather than being a tick box
exercise, which must be reallyempowering for your tamariki and
for your whānau. Has like, haveyou ever had to face any kind of
resistance to this or was thereanything tricky parts that you
(09:47):
may have had to face throughthis journey?
Billie-Jean (09:50):
I haven't had any issues. So I've been really
fortunate that the staff that wehave on board here are very
proactive and very supportive ofeverything that we do around
respecting and maintaining themana of the Treaty and having it
visible in all that we do in thekura so we haven't had any
(10:11):
resistance at all.
Mārama (10:13):
Oh, that's wonderful.
Robyn (10:14):
Yeah, and just to follow on from Billie-Jean, because
we're quite a big school, we'vegot between 50 to 60 staff, and
some of those staff have comefrom overseas, or have come from
a different school environment,I guess, different percentage,
different clientele, and we'vehad to, I have had staff
question, at times, why are wedoing this, why am I taking my
(10:36):
own time, and I had to reflecton that, and thought well,
actually if this is where youwant to be, then also
understanding my role asprincipal is to bring everybody
along, so we spend a fair bit oftime unpacking why we do this,
what our obligations are againstTe Tiriti and our obligations to
whānau. And that actualcreating, as Mel said, a shared
understanding of why we do, whatour service is to our community,
(11:00):
actually unpacking that withstaff, has sort of progressed
along the way, so there hasn'tbeen that resistance that there
was initially from some, but itwas actually these are our
values as a kura, these are therequirements of our community,
we have to actually step up andreflect on what we're doing to
do it well.
Mārama (11:16):
Mel?
Mel (11:16):
Ah, kia ora, I was just thinking about a couple of
examples. One example waspushback around the increasing
use of te reo Māori, tikakaMaōri, mātauraka Māori in a
kura that I worked in. And itcame to the fore after an end of
year celebration where a parentdeemed we had used a lot more
(11:40):
kaupapa Māori than they perhapsmay have liked. They expressed
that as many do these daysthrough a Facebook post. And
they were happy for this tohappen at the marae, but they
felt in the kura setting, thatactually that should stay at the
marae. And so it was end of year,so a tricky time for something
like that to happen, because youhaven't got that time back in
(12:01):
your kura to unpack, but weworked together to build some
knowledge and understandingaround why we chose to do what
we did in that setting and howmuch te reo Māori, tikaka
Maōri, mātauraka Māori waspart of the way we do things in
our kura. So building thatunderstanding. And it's quite
(12:23):
common in some kura that Isupport in my role as Kaihoe
Mātauraka for MaōriAchievement Collaborative, for
MAC, parents questioning theincreasing use of te reo Māori
in the daily life of a kura andthe practices, but more often
than not I think it's actuallyabout a lack of knowledge and
(12:44):
understanding and that once youcan support whānau or kaiako or
tamariki to build that knowledgeand understanding most of the
time you can continue on thatpathway that you are on.
Mārama (12:56):
That's really important, that building of the
relationships. And I've justnoted too, I'm loving the mita o
te reo that you're using, I canhear Ngāi Tahu, we often don't
get to hear that up north, andit's great that you're honouring
your mana whenua there.
Mel (13:12):
Kia ora.
Mārama (13:13):
So just moving on. Is there any advice for our new
principals, perhaps? Mel, youwork across many, many schools,
is there a way that you wouldsee for helping them get support
or moving through some resistantsituations?
Mel (13:30):
Aē. I think one of the biggest things which Robyn and
Billie-Jean have touched on alsoalready is that that importance
of building relationships thatare genuine, authentic, uh,
based on trust, reciprocal,respectful. I think that's
really at the core of everything,everything that you can do in
that leadership role, withwhoever you're building those
(13:53):
relationships with, that becomesthe foundation for the journey
that you go on, um, with all thepeople that you work with. So
taking the time to do that, Ithink one of the things that
many leaders find is that thereis never enough time in the day,
but actually to build genuinerelationships it takes time and
(14:14):
it takes the time it takes, justlike with whānau, the same with
iwi, hapū, marae, that it takestime to build the relationship.
But once that relationship hasbeen built, then the mahi that
you do together is based onsomething really solid.
Mārama (14:30):
That's good advice. How about you, Robyn? When you
mentioned you have staff fromoverseas, how would you advise
to bringing them along thejourney?
Robyn (14:41):
The key advice I'd give to a new principal is be kind to
yourself, I think sometimesother principals can put
expectations on each other thatyou should know this, and you
should do that when it comes toTe Tiriti, or comes to te aō
Māori, I think you've got to bekind, and assess where you're at,
but also look at what, having,gai an understanding yourself,
(15:03):
so you're not coming and feeling,oh, I should know this, and I
should know that, and then beingtoo scared to do anything. It's
about looking at where are youat, and what's your next step, a
be kind to yourself, I think weneed to support principals more
in the journey, becauseeverybody is in a different
place, but once you get thatgenuine, and as Mel said,
authentic understanding of howyou do give effect to Te Tiriti
(15:25):
o Waitangi, that's your startpoint, and not to be scared to
do something in case you'regonna do it wrong. And have
someone that, I'm very lucky inour kura, because we have Rumaki
and Reo Rua, I've got lots ofsources that I can go to and say,
look, I don't know, I'm out ofmy depth here, and it's okay to
do that, and having people thatwill support you to make the
(15:47):
right decision, or to reflect onwhere you stand, so it's not
being scared to take that adviceand say, actually, at this point,
I don't know what to do. Andsometimes as new principals, we
go, well, we don't wanna lookbad, but actually, you're gonna
do a better job if you're honestabout that.
Mārama (16:03):
Yeah, that's advice I always give as well. You should
use your status as a first-timeprincipal - say, I'm new, I
don't know, and find out andlearn, go through that learning
journey with your kids, really
Robyn (16:14):
Absolutely.
Mārama (16:16):
How about you, Billie-Jean?
Billie-Jean (16:17):
So I was just writing down a little list there,
you know learn the language isprobably a really important one
and then you learn to love thelanguage and the tikanga and the
kawa that's associated with it.But, get in amongst, go to
opportunities where you aregoing to be amongst the people
as well and as Mel and Robynhave both alluded to that that
(16:38):
importance of relationship overa long period of time. In te ao
Māori eh we're talking aboutthings that happened two hundred
years ago and we never forget.So if you don't show up
somewhere to a hui they willnever forget that you didn't
show up, they will remember thatforever so that is really
important. Professionaldevelopment from local iwi
(17:03):
leaders and people in yourcommunity, um, not calling in
people from other places to leadyou in aspects with this sort of
kaupapa, ensuring that yourcurriculum designed around the
stories of the children who arein your kura. You know, first
learn the stories as teachersabout these kids that are
(17:25):
sitting in front of you and Ithink another good one is kai eh.
Kai is a really great topic tostart with. It an easy topic, we
all love eating food andlearning not only about the kai
from a Māori perspective butcomparing it, contrasting it and
learning about kai from othercultures as well. And that leads
(17:45):
to values - manaakitanga, aroha,whakawhanaungatanga, and
kindness, so all of those sortsof things. It's a lot of things,
it's not just one particularthing that you can, you need to
be working on lots of things,but someone else said in their
kōrero, you have to be kind toyourself too, you can't do it
(18:06):
all.
Mārama (18:07):
Mm-hmm, right. Tika. Tika. We mentioned a little bit
as a first-time principal,sometimes can be made, and often
some people don't forget, is Isthere any advice you guys might
be able to give to first-timeprincipals? If we do make a
mistake, what would suggest?Perhaps do you want to start
Robyn
Robyn (18:27):
Yeah, I would say own it. So if you make a mistake, it's
just, just saying that look, Imade a mistake, I know there are
times that I've done somethingthinking it was the best thing
to do and that I'd consideredeverybody's thoughts, but I did
get it wrong, and it's aboutacknowledging and I said to
whānau look, that was mymuck-up, and then looking to
(18:50):
what you can do better. So makea mistake, by all means we're
all gonna make mistakes, butthen be intentional in never
making that mistake again. Anddoing your homework, don't, like
Billie-Jean's just said, we'renot the font of all knowledge,
it's showing that humility thatactually I got it wrong, but I
want to know how to do it better,and then go and seek those
sources from community, fromkaumatua, from the people that
(19:14):
we have around us. But yeah,foremost own it, don't try and
cover it up and get defensive,just straight out own it
Mārama (19:21):
Mmm. Ka pai. Mel, how about rebuilding trust and
momentum after a mistake? Haveyou seen or any examples that
you can give us as a facilitatorfor MAC
Mel (19:31):
Aē. I think one of the big things, um, that can lead to
that is when people ask for helpor advice, and then they, they
don't act on it. So they, theyseek guidance from mana whenua
or from hapū, iwi, marae, buthey choose not to act on that
(19:51):
and they just sometimes can keepon going in the direction they
were heading, even thoughsomeone's given them some
different advice. So being alistener, I think that, that
links into that concept of,Māori having a voice at the
table, having the voice heardand the voice acted on. That
it's about acting on theinformation that is shared with
(20:13):
you, um, and then at the pointthat perhaps a mistake is being
made is, as Robyn said,acknowledging it, learning from
it, being a reflectivepractitioner, and trying not to
do it again, trying really notto do it again. Um, I often, um,
refer to the quote by MaiaAngelou, "when you know better,
(20:36):
do better". So trying to reallyhard to do better, once you know
that these are different way ofdoing that.
Mārama (20:41):
Ka pai. Billie-Jean?
Billie-Jean (20:43):
Tika te kōrero koutou. Um aroha mai is, is a
good phrase to have in your, tobe using eh when you make
mistakes, but, pick your battles,you know, if you've got lots of
things going on, rather thanpush forward with stuff that you
know you're not 100% certainabout, just take a step back and
have a bit of a breath, and whenyou're getting advice, making
(21:05):
sure that that person is withyou in spaces where you are
uncertain, so if you're going tothe marae or you're going to iwi
leaders hui, you actually aretaking people with you who can
support you, um, in those spaces,if you don't yet have the
relationships that you need tohave with, with people, to feel
comfortable that you can talkopenly about matters. And then
(21:28):
also understanding some placesare not good places to be
talking, it's just a listeningforum, u,you know, when you're
at the marae there's only a fewpeople that talk at the marae,
so if there's ever hui at themarae you're there to listen,
and then you talk about it whenyou have a cup of tea, that's
when you talk, you know, soyou've got to, that's what I
(21:48):
mean by pick your battles,you've, and be strategic about
when you are talking and whenyou are listening.
Mel (21:54):
The other thing that it's just made me come back to, uh,
uh, particularly for ournon-Māori educators is concept
of māhaki, of humility. And Ithink that, it's really nicely
in this space of talking aboutwhen mistakes are made, being
humble in what you do, and inyour response as mistakes are
(22:15):
made, keeping that humility atthe fore.
Mārama (22:19):
Yeah, it really shows the service side of leadership
in te ao Māori doesn't it. Uhm,so, thinking about, you're all
very successful and where you'vecome from, what were the signs
you knew that you had actuallymade it an impactful, meaningful
change in your journey? Robyn.
Robyn (22:37):
Yeah, I think that would come back to whānau hui, I mean
I've been principal now for 13years at Flaxmere Primary, and I
was assistant principal sixyears prior to that. It probably
took me, I mean you're in forthe long journey when it comes
to building relationships andbuilding trust, and it was
probably seeing whānau presentand comfortable and not. There
(22:58):
was like, with our whānau, we'rblessed with our community as
they will come waltzing into theoffice or into school and
there's no concerns about that,or they'll just come straight
into the office and say, 'Robyn,we need to have a chat'. When
that first started to happen, Ithought, well that's great,
we're on that, we've got thatmutual trust, the relationships
are there, and it's almostsomething you can't describe,
(23:20):
but when you have thatconnection that you feel is
authentic and relaxed withwhānau, then it's like, okay,
we've built the trust, we feellike that we have got that
connection, and to see, lastyear we had four whānau hui,
one a term, by term threewhānau said, 'Let's have a
carnival and just celebrate interm four', which we went, 'All
(23:41):
right, let's do it', it was justamazing, and we probably would
have had 500 there, and that'swhen I stood there on the stage
and I thought, 'Yeah, we've donethis, we're working now as one
team, it's not whānau versuseducators where we do the work
and send the notices home, butwe're actually working together
as a team for our tamariki. Iremember that moment standing
(24:03):
there thinking, 'Yes, we've gotthis', that was probably the
moment for me.
Mārama (24:07):
That's beautiful. How about you, Billie-Jean, when did
you think 'Hmm, I think I've gotthis?
Billie-Jean (24:13):
You don't ever a aha moment, eh, because there's
always something else that youhave to achieve, so there's
always a constant cycle of,we've got something else we're
on now whānau, finally let's gothis way, we've done that, so
it's always about improvingourselves, sp in the kura, but I
think really we, I think, um,here at Kaiti we can, I can
(24:34):
confidently say we're agenuinely bilingual kura, where
te ao Māori me te ao Pakeha areboth valued, you know, and then
we have all of our other specialcultures as well who are, that
are evident and present in the,in the school. I think the other
things too that you know eh whenyour kids are in tune with their
whenua, their maunga, their awa,they know the stories of their
(24:58):
tūpuna, they know their whānaustories, they can stand up and
do their, um, kōreroconfidently to their whānau and
their whānau come in a tribe,they don't come just one member
comes, there's about five or sixof them who come to their hui
when they're presenting, and theother important thing, you know,
we must tie this back to our,our jobs as educators is student
(25:23):
achievement, attendance andengagement. If you've got it
right, you've got high rates ofattendance, your kids are
performing academically andthey're successful not only
academically but culturally andon the sporting field as well.
Mārama (25:38):
That's wonderful, being strong in two worlds really,
isn't it? Mel, how about, uhm,have you ever had any aha
moments you could share
Mel (25:47):
Oh, aē. I think, um, in both that I have led as tumuaki,
um, that that point where ākokaMāori who previously did not
outwardly show that pride inbeing Māori, uh, stand tall and
proud in their identity asMāori, and are proud to be
(26:08):
Māori and are achieving thatsuccess, both academically,
culturally, really strong in, inbeing Māori. I think that's,
that's something pretty specialas you, as you see that evolve,
in, um, tamariki who, who youmight not have seen it in
previously. I think in the samespace for whānau. As you see
(26:29):
whānau grow in their confidencearound being Māori and, uh,
their voice growing, and then tothe point that whānau and their
tamariki drive what is happeningin your kura, in that te ao
Māori space. So it's, in somekura that I support, it's gone
from a space where tumuaki andkaiako are, are driving this to
(26:53):
progress it to a point whereactually, it's not about them at
all, it's actually about thewhānau who, who are driving
what's happening in that kaupapaMāori space. Super exciting
Mārama (27:04):
It is, that's really exciting. I, I, after this year,
I was pretty, um,stoked at roadpatrol the other day. A little
Indian boy came up and he waspractising his mōrena, kei te
pēhea koe whaea. And then hewanted to learn how to say he
was awake, so yeah, that waspretty special and then his dad
doing that in the morning. me.And so, thinking again, for
(27:26):
advice for our beginningprincipals and perhaps aspiring
principals, what, what, werowould give to them, if they're
thinking of starting thisleadership journey, whe would
you go, what would you start, orwhat would you do? Robyn.
Robyn (27:40):
I would probably say, 'Look at where you're at' and
for you to authentically begiving effect to Te Tiriti o
Waitangi, what do you first needto do, because I remember even
10 years down the track, I havea lot of being non-Māori myself,
having a lot of teachers in thekura that could support me there.
It was a few years ago, Ithought actually, 'I need to
(28:02):
take my journey, I need to bethe role model for my teachers
that aren't on a reo journey, Ineed to be their role model'. So
,again , enrolling in wānangaand then getting immersed in not
only the reo, but the tikangathat sits with it made me a much
stronger leader, made me willingto take more risks, so I think
you've first got to look not atwhat you have to legally do as a
(28:25):
first-time principal around TeTiriti, because a lot of that is
there, but how do youauthentically give effect to Te
Tiriti in your role as a tumuakiin any school, regardless of the
percentage of Māori students orPasifika students that you have.
So, it's that looking first andI think it's one of the most
important things, probably aheadof knowing your Sue report or
(28:46):
some of those things, butactually how can I authentically
jump into this role, givingeffect to Te Tiriti o Waitangi.
Mārama (28:54):
Yeah, actually made me think, um, Robyn, about how
perhaps our perceptions ofTiriti have changed, where it
was for Māori, but actually,it's for those who are coming to
our country, our Tiriti was toform and allow our, um, it to
come to our country, which isreally important distinction to
know. Billie-Jean, what kind ofwero would you give to our
(29:16):
first-time beginning andaspiring principles?
Billie-Jean (29:20):
Don't overthink it, for us to be natural, just be
yourself, don't overthink it,and start with something simple
like celebrating Waitangi Day atthe beginning of the year. So
that is the kaupapa that we haveat the start of every year, at
the beginning of the year wetalk about the Treaty. We talk
(29:41):
about what is the Treaty, wemake our own treaties in our
classrooms. So those sorts ofthings that you can, simple
enactions in the curriculum,where everyone can be learning
about the Treaty and then wehave Waitangi Day celebrations.
So that's a simple, one of thesimple things. But as a leader,
you've got to keep up to playwith what's happening in the
(30:01):
world of education, and a lot'sbeen spoken about the Treaty at
the moment. So we, you know,when you're hearing lots of
things been spoken about with TeTiriti, it's important as a
leader for me in my mind I'malways going, how does that
affect me as a leader in thekura, and how will that decision
that's currently being spokenabout affect the children that
(30:25):
I'm responsible for. So in mymind I'm always thinking and
taking a position on things andthinking about the position that
other people hold as well inregards to the treaty.
Mārama (30:37):
And Mel, have you got anything or any wero to share?
Mel (30:41):
U, I think one is
is take your time, take your inall that you do. Uh, Billie-Jean
was really talking about thelens, I think. That's how I
heard you, Billie-Jean, thinkingabout what lens are you viewing
things through, and thinkingabout the lens that others have.
So I think that that is reallyimportant. I think, um, knowing
(31:06):
ko wai, ko wai tō iwi, ko waika iwi in the space that your
kura is situated, w are, who areiwi, who are hapū, who are mana
whenua, and learning what isimportant to them, and what are
their aspirations, because thatshould guide you in the way you
are leading and what you do inyour kura. Um, one of our other
(31:32):
colleagues talked about being alearner, and I think it's seeing
yourself as that learner on thatjourney is really important and
engaging in experiences yourselfas a leader to build that
knowledge and understandingyourself so that the people you
support see you as a learner aswell. I think that's very
important,
Mārama (31:52):
Thank you so much, guys. It's been wonderful talking to
you all, and that's some reallygreat advice that you've given
us. Ngā mihi nui ki a koutou.
Billie-Jean (32:00):
Ka kite whānau.
Robyn (32:01):
Ka kite.
Mel (32:02):
Kia ora, ka kite.
Mārama (32:04):
In the next episode, Eleisha will be talking about
professional growth cycles forprincipals. Mā
Kia ora and welcome to The Principals, a podcast series
for current and aspiring tumuakiin Aotearoa, New Zealand. I'm
Mārama Stewart. Today, we'rediving into one of the most
fundamental aspects of oureducational leadership journey
in our country, the Tiriti oWaitangi, and what it means to
move beyond mere compliance intogenuine partnership. I'm joined
(00:31):
by three experienced principleswho've been navigating their own
Tiriti journeys. Tēna katoukatoa. Ngā mihi nui ki a koutou.
Welcome to our episode today.Billie-Jean, would you like to
start off by introducingyourself to us?
Billie-Jean (00:46):
Āe, ngā mihi nui ki a koutou, kua taite hui i
tēnei ahi, ko wai ahau, koNgongotahā te maunga, ko
Kaituna te awa, ko Te Arawa tewaka, ko Ngāti Whakaue te iwi,ko
Ngāti Whakaue ki Maketū tehapu, ko Whakaue te marae, ko
Billie-Jean Potaka-Ayton tōkuingoa, no Maketū ahau. He
(01:09):
tumuaki ahau i naīanei ki tekura o Puhi Kaiti nō te
Tairāwhiti. Nga mihi.
Mārama (01:17):
Ngā mihi Billie-Jean. And Mel, would you like to
introduce yourself today?
Mel (01:21):
Uh tēnā koutou, nō Ingarani, nō Kōtirana, nō
Aerani, nō Āwherika ki teTonga ōhoku tūpuna, uh –
kāi Ōtepoti tōku kāika ināianei, ko Mel Jewiss tōku
ikua, he Kaihoe Mātauraka ahauki Te Arahau Māori Achievement
Collaborative kei Ōtākou. Kiaora.
Mārama (01:42):
Kia ora, Robyn, would you like to introduce yourself
today?
Robyn (01:45):
Hi kia ora, I'm Robyn Isaacson, tumuaki of Te Kura o
Pāharakeke. I'm principal atFlaxmere Primary School. We're a
big school in the Hawke's Baywith Rumaki, Reo Rua, Vasega o
le Gagana Samoa classes, andEnglish medium. Kia ora.
Mārama (01:59):
Kia ora koutou. So today's episode we're talking
about our Tiriti o Waitangijourney. And I thought we'd just
start off with a little kōreroabout what Tiriti o Waitangi
means to you guys personally,and how that, perhaps that
understanding of our partnershipjourney in Te Tiriti, has been
(02:20):
for you as a leader. Billie Jean,would you like to get us started?
Billie-Jean (02:23):
Sure. So when I was younger, we didn't really talk
much about the Treaty as per se,but what we, we're orchardists
so we had to learn to bepartners with all sorts of
people back then when I wasgrowing up. So it was an
important thing wasrelationships for our family.
One thing we were made veryaware of was the disparities
between indigenous cultures andother people, other groups, and
(02:49):
that was because my motherworked intensively in the
kohanga reo movement, and withAborigines and Fijians over in
Fiji and Australia. So we weretaught that we were very lucky
what we had and that some peopledidn't have things for certain
reasons. When I became a teacher,I saw how important it was to be
ah, sharing my culture and mylanguage and our tikanga with
(03:12):
other cultures. So I workedpredominantly in South Auckland
and on the North Shore. Sothought you know, this is really
important that we get, we sharethe love that we have for this
taonga with other people andthen as a leader in a school you
know, you have to fight thefight every day to make sure
that the Treaty is upheld. Sowe're very much a Toitu te
(03:33):
Tiriti kura here at Kaiti. Ngāmihi.
Mārama (03:36):
Ngā mihi, that's wonderful to hear. And I like
the way that when you talkedabout the relationship and the
partnership, it wasn't justbetween Māori and Pakeha - you
mentioned other cultures. AndRobyn, yo have several
multi-lingual departments inyour school. How do you think
Tiriti and your personalleadership has affected your
kura?
Robyn (03:56):
It's a really good question because I think my
understanding of Te Tiriti, myfocus on it has changed. I
started here as a teacher wayback, probably 25 years ago at
Flaxmere Primary. And now wherewe are now, it just brings my
attention to everything, so muchnow that every judgement I make,
almost every decision I make, Imake sure that I've got that
aspect of giving effect to TeTiriti, at the front of what we
(04:17):
do, whether it's in my Vasega,whether it's in English medium,
because obviously we have alarge percentage of Māori
students in our kura. So it's,it affects everything,
regardless of what aspect of theschool that we're in. So once
upon a time, it was a compliancething, but now it's very much
about making honest judgmentsfor our tamariki.
Mārama (04:36):
Hmm. That's good to hear. Mel, how about you down in
the deep, de south?
Mel (04:39):
Ah, kia ora. So I guess for me, like Billy Jean, I think it
goes back to my experiences overmy life. My early life was spent
in Ruataniwha in Twizel. Andmany whānau who lived in Twizel
did whakapapa Maōri. But Iprobably didn't know too much
about it at the time, but whatstayed with me really was that
(05:00):
my parents had really positiveattitudes towards Takata Māori
and a high level of respect forMāori in our community. And I
think that stayed with me. But Ididn't have experiences in te ao
Māori myself at that time.Thengoing through my education
journey, I was very interestedin history and undertook a
(05:22):
history degree, but my highschool teachers, I later learnt,
gave me a balanced balancedhistory of our country, from te
ao Māori and te ao Pākeha,which I think influenced me then
along the journey working inkura with higher numbers of
ākoka Māori has led me to aplace where I've developed a
(05:45):
really strong interest inlearning much more about Te
Tiriti and the partnerships thatwe can all be engaged in,
whether we are Māori or TakataTiriti, so building my journey
of my own identity has been partof that journey as well.
Mārama (06:00):
It's a very similar theme, I think, we've had across
all of the conversations is howimportant our early years as
educators have affected ourjourneys as leadership, leaders,
excuse me, in our kura and howthat can perhaps influence quite
major decisions within yourschool and within our honouring
(06:21):
off Te Tiriti. Can any of youperhaps give an example of early
journey has influenced you inyour current positions?
Robyn (06:29):
Reflecting back, I think very much, like I say in the
beginning, it was about how youcomply with what the
requirements are for the Treaty,whereas now it's that
understanding, we used to bring,when I think of whānau
engagement. It was very muchabout holding a workshop on
something and seeing how manywhānau turned up, because
(06:49):
that's what we wanted to do.We've made a huge shift in the
fact that we now have really,really successful whānau hui,
we can have three or fourhundred of our whānau here on
site, and it's because we'vestopped asking, and actually
started listening, and knowingthat if we're really going to
give effect to Te Tiriti, weneed to sit back and we need to
find out what the aspirationsare for our whānau. And do the
(07:12):
listening rather than the asking,and that's just been a huge
shift for us, and a hugelearning curve, and because
we've moved away from compliance,it's actually authentically
genuinely, we want to know howwe can do better, and
particularly in line with howwe're honouring Te Tiriti o
Waitangi.
Mārama (07:26):
That's quite a brave move, you know, like opening
yourself to not predicting whatmay come out of that, that kind
of consultation and conversation.Often that can be a bit leading,
but congratulations for takingthat step. Billie-Jean, did you
want to add something?
Billie-Jean (07:42):
Yeah. We, um we run whānau hui a little bit
different at our school. So it'sa 60 minute hui where we don't
talk. So we put ourselves aroundthe outside of the turf or the
hall wherever we decide to havethe hui, if it's in summer, it's
outside. And we have our staffstationed and board members
around the outside and whānauvisit in little groups and they
(08:04):
share their aspirations, theirdreams, their bad feedback,
their good feedback about thekura and the strategic direction
the kura is taking. So, and wehave around 200 whānau show up
and they know it's 60 minutes,so they know they're not going
to be sitting there listening tome going on all afternoon and
into the evening and then wehave a kai or something at the
(08:25):
end. So pretty much what Robynsaid really genuine kōrero, not
telling whānau what to do, butactually getting them to give us
really a feedback that we'regoing to follow up on and act on
in the future.
Mārama (08:37):
Thank you. And Mel how do your whānau kōrero go?
Mel (08:41):
A, kia ora, I was reflecting as I was listening to
Robyn and Billie-Jean about theimportance of building knowledge
and understanding and knowingthe why, why we do what we do,
in whatever space we are in,because when, when everyone
understands the purpose, thenthat can guide what happens. And
(09:04):
then the other thing I wasthinking of was just the
importance of doing the rightthing and being the right thing,
so rather than in thatcompliance space, that the
actions that are taken in a kura,that the hui that are held,
that the engagement that takesplace is for the right reason.
Mārama (09:24):
And it's really awesome, it's like you've moved away from
compliance because it soundslike your whole community really
actually values the relationshipnow rather than being a tick box
exercise, which must be reallyempowering for your tamariki and
for your whānau. Has like, haveyou ever had to face any kind of
resistance to this or was thereanything tricky parts that you
(09:47):
may have had to face throughthis journey?
Billie-Jean (09:50):
I haven't had any issues. So I've been really
fortunate that the staff that wehave on board here are very
proactive and very supportive ofeverything that we do around
respecting and maintaining themana of the Treaty and having it
visible in all that we do in thekura so we haven't had any
(10:11):
resistance at all.
Mārama (10:13):
Oh, that's wonderful.
Robyn (10:14):
Yeah, and just to follow on from Billie-Jean, because
we're quite a big school, we'vegot between 50 to 60 staff, and
some of those staff have comefrom overseas, or have come from
a different school environment,I guess, different percentage,
different clientele, and we'vehad to, I have had staff
question, at times, why are wedoing this, why am I taking my
(10:36):
own time, and I had to reflecton that, and thought well,
actually if this is where youwant to be, then also
understanding my role asprincipal is to bring everybody
along, so we spend a fair bit oftime unpacking why we do this,
what our obligations are againstTe Tiriti and our obligations to
whānau. And that actualcreating, as Mel said, a shared
understanding of why we do, whatour service is to our community,
(11:00):
actually unpacking that withstaff, has sort of progressed
along the way, so there hasn'tbeen that resistance that there
was initially from some, but itwas actually these are our
values as a kura, these are therequirements of our community,
we have to actually step up andreflect on what we're doing to
do it well.
Mārama (11:16):
Mel?
Mel (11:16):
Ah, kia ora, I was just thinking about a couple of
examples. One example waspushback around the increasing
use of te reo Māori, tikakaMaōri, mātauraka Māori in a
kura that I worked in. And itcame to the fore after an end of
year celebration where a parentdeemed we had used a lot more
(11:40):
kaupapa Māori than they perhapsmay have liked. They expressed
that as many do these daysthrough a Facebook post. And
they were happy for this tohappen at the marae, but they
felt in the kura setting, thatactually that should stay at the
marae. And so it was end of year,so a tricky time for something
like that to happen, because youhaven't got that time back in
(12:01):
your kura to unpack, but weworked together to build some
knowledge and understandingaround why we chose to do what
we did in that setting and howmuch te reo Māori, tikaka
Maōri, mātauraka Māori waspart of the way we do things in
our kura. So building thatunderstanding. And it's quite
(12:23):
common in some kura that Isupport in my role as Kaihoe
Mātauraka for MaōriAchievement Collaborative, for
MAC, parents questioning theincreasing use of te reo Māori
in the daily life of a kura andthe practices, but more often
than not I think it's actuallyabout a lack of knowledge and
(12:44):
understanding and that once youcan support whānau or kaiako or
tamariki to build that knowledgeand understanding most of the
time you can continue on thatpathway that you are on.
Mārama (12:56):
That's really important, that building of the
relationships. And I've justnoted too, I'm loving the mita o
te reo that you're using, I canhear Ngāi Tahu, we often don't
get to hear that up north, andit's great that you're honouring
your mana whenua there.
Mel (13:12):
Kia ora.
Mārama (13:13):
So just moving on. Is there any advice for our new
principals, perhaps? Mel, youwork across many, many schools,
is there a way that you wouldsee for helping them get support
or moving through some resistantsituations?
Mel (13:30):
Aē. I think one of the biggest things which Robyn and
Billie-Jean have touched on alsoalready is that that importance
of building relationships thatare genuine, authentic, uh,
based on trust, reciprocal,respectful. I think that's
really at the core of everything,everything that you can do in
that leadership role, withwhoever you're building those
(13:53):
relationships with, that becomesthe foundation for the journey
that you go on, um, with all thepeople that you work with. So
taking the time to do that, Ithink one of the things that
many leaders find is that thereis never enough time in the day,
but actually to build genuinerelationships it takes time and
(14:14):
it takes the time it takes, justlike with whānau, the same with
iwi, hapū, marae, that it takestime to build the relationship.
But once that relationship hasbeen built, then the mahi that
you do together is based onsomething really solid.
Mārama (14:30):
That's good advice. How about you, Robyn? When you
mentioned you have staff fromoverseas, how would you advise
to bringing them along thejourney?
Robyn (14:41):
The key advice I'd give to a new principal is be kind to
yourself, I think sometimesother principals can put
expectations on each other thatyou should know this, and you
should do that when it comes toTe Tiriti, or comes to te aō
Māori, I think you've got to bekind, and assess where you're at,
but also look at what, having,gai an understanding yourself,
(15:03):
so you're not coming and feeling,oh, I should know this, and I
should know that, and then beingtoo scared to do anything. It's
about looking at where are youat, and what's your next step, a
be kind to yourself, I think weneed to support principals more
in the journey, becauseeverybody is in a different
place, but once you get thatgenuine, and as Mel said,
authentic understanding of howyou do give effect to Te Tiriti
(15:25):
o Waitangi, that's your startpoint, and not to be scared to
do something in case you'regonna do it wrong. And have
someone that, I'm very lucky inour kura, because we have Rumaki
and Reo Rua, I've got lots ofsources that I can go to and say,
look, I don't know, I'm out ofmy depth here, and it's okay to
do that, and having people thatwill support you to make the
(15:47):
right decision, or to reflect onwhere you stand, so it's not
being scared to take that adviceand say, actually, at this point,
I don't know what to do. Andsometimes as new principals, we
go, well, we don't wanna lookbad, but actually, you're gonna
do a better job if you're honestabout that.
Mārama (16:03):
Yeah, that's advice I always give as well. You should
use your status as a first-timeprincipal - say, I'm new, I
don't know, and find out andlearn, go through that learning
journey with your kids, really
Robyn (16:14):
Absolutely.
Mārama (16:16):
How about you, Billie-Jean?
Billie-Jean (16:17):
So I was just writing down a little list there,
you know learn the language isprobably a really important one
and then you learn to love thelanguage and the tikanga and the
kawa that's associated with it.But, get in amongst, go to
opportunities where you aregoing to be amongst the people
as well and as Mel and Robynhave both alluded to that that
(16:38):
importance of relationship overa long period of time. In te ao
Māori eh we're talking aboutthings that happened two hundred
years ago and we never forget.So if you don't show up
somewhere to a hui they willnever forget that you didn't
show up, they will remember thatforever so that is really
important. Professionaldevelopment from local iwi
(17:03):
leaders and people in yourcommunity, um, not calling in
people from other places to leadyou in aspects with this sort of
kaupapa, ensuring that yourcurriculum designed around the
stories of the children who arein your kura. You know, first
learn the stories as teachersabout these kids that are
(17:25):
sitting in front of you and Ithink another good one is kai eh.
Kai is a really great topic tostart with. It an easy topic, we
all love eating food andlearning not only about the kai
from a Māori perspective butcomparing it, contrasting it and
learning about kai from othercultures as well. And that leads
(17:45):
to values - manaakitanga, aroha,whakawhanaungatanga, and
kindness, so all of those sortsof things. It's a lot of things,
it's not just one particularthing that you can, you need to
be working on lots of things,but someone else said in their
kōrero, you have to be kind toyourself too, you can't do it
(18:06):
all.
Mārama (18:07):
Mm-hmm, right. Tika. Tika. We mentioned a little bit
as a first-time principal,sometimes can be made, and often
some people don't forget, is Isthere any advice you guys might
be able to give to first-timeprincipals? If we do make a
mistake, what would suggest?Perhaps do you want to start
Robyn
Robyn (18:27):
Yeah, I would say own it. So if you make a mistake, it's
just, just saying that look, Imade a mistake, I know there are
times that I've done somethingthinking it was the best thing
to do and that I'd consideredeverybody's thoughts, but I did
get it wrong, and it's aboutacknowledging and I said to
whānau look, that was mymuck-up, and then looking to
(18:50):
what you can do better. So makea mistake, by all means we're
all gonna make mistakes, butthen be intentional in never
making that mistake again. Anddoing your homework, don't, like
Billie-Jean's just said, we'renot the font of all knowledge,
it's showing that humility thatactually I got it wrong, but I
want to know how to do it better,and then go and seek those
sources from community, fromkaumatua, from the people that
(19:14):
we have around us. But yeah,foremost own it, don't try and
cover it up and get defensive,just straight out own it
Mārama (19:21):
Mmm. Ka pai. Mel, how about rebuilding trust and
momentum after a mistake? Haveyou seen or any examples that
you can give us as a facilitatorfor MAC
Mel (19:31):
Aē. I think one of the big things, um, that can lead to
that is when people ask for helpor advice, and then they, they
don't act on it. So they, theyseek guidance from mana whenua
or from hapū, iwi, marae, buthey choose not to act on that
(19:51):
and they just sometimes can keepon going in the direction they
were heading, even thoughsomeone's given them some
different advice. So being alistener, I think that, that
links into that concept of,Māori having a voice at the
table, having the voice heardand the voice acted on. That
it's about acting on theinformation that is shared with
(20:13):
you, um, and then at the pointthat perhaps a mistake is being
made is, as Robyn said,acknowledging it, learning from
it, being a reflectivepractitioner, and trying not to
do it again, trying really notto do it again. Um, I often, um,
refer to the quote by MaiaAngelou, "when you know better,
(20:36):
do better". So trying to reallyhard to do better, once you know
that these are different way ofdoing that.
Mārama (20:41):
Ka pai. Billie-Jean?
Billie-Jean (20:43):
Tika te kōrero koutou. Um aroha mai is, is a
good phrase to have in your, tobe using eh when you make
mistakes, but, pick your battles,you know, if you've got lots of
things going on, rather thanpush forward with stuff that you
know you're not 100% certainabout, just take a step back and
have a bit of a breath, and whenyou're getting advice, making
(21:05):
sure that that person is withyou in spaces where you are
uncertain, so if you're going tothe marae or you're going to iwi
leaders hui, you actually aretaking people with you who can
support you, um, in those spaces,if you don't yet have the
relationships that you need tohave with, with people, to feel
comfortable that you can talkopenly about matters. And then
(21:28):
also understanding some placesare not good places to be
talking, it's just a listeningforum, u,you know, when you're
at the marae there's only a fewpeople that talk at the marae,
so if there's ever hui at themarae you're there to listen,
and then you talk about it whenyou have a cup of tea, that's
when you talk, you know, soyou've got to, that's what I
(21:48):
mean by pick your battles,you've, and be strategic about
when you are talking and whenyou are listening.
Mel (21:54):
The other thing that it's just made me come back to, uh,
uh, particularly for ournon-Māori educators is concept
of māhaki, of humility. And Ithink that, it's really nicely
in this space of talking aboutwhen mistakes are made, being
humble in what you do, and inyour response as mistakes are
(22:15):
made, keeping that humility atthe fore.
Mārama (22:19):
Yeah, it really shows the service side of leadership
in te ao Māori doesn't it. Uhm,so, thinking about, you're all
very successful and where you'vecome from, what were the signs
you knew that you had actuallymade it an impactful, meaningful
change in your journey? Robyn.
Robyn (22:37):
Yeah, I think that would come back to whānau hui, I mean
I've been principal now for 13years at Flaxmere Primary, and I
was assistant principal sixyears prior to that. It probably
took me, I mean you're in forthe long journey when it comes
to building relationships andbuilding trust, and it was
probably seeing whānau presentand comfortable and not. There
(22:58):
was like, with our whānau, we'rblessed with our community as
they will come waltzing into theoffice or into school and
there's no concerns about that,or they'll just come straight
into the office and say, 'Robyn,we need to have a chat'. When
that first started to happen, Ithought, well that's great,
we're on that, we've got thatmutual trust, the relationships
are there, and it's almostsomething you can't describe,
(23:20):
but when you have thatconnection that you feel is
authentic and relaxed withwhānau, then it's like, okay,
we've built the trust, we feellike that we have got that
connection, and to see, lastyear we had four whānau hui,
one a term, by term threewhānau said, 'Let's have a
carnival and just celebrate interm four', which we went, 'All
(23:41):
right, let's do it', it was justamazing, and we probably would
have had 500 there, and that'swhen I stood there on the stage
and I thought, 'Yeah, we've donethis, we're working now as one
team, it's not whānau versuseducators where we do the work
and send the notices home, butwe're actually working together
as a team for our tamariki. Iremember that moment standing
(24:03):
there thinking, 'Yes, we've gotthis', that was probably the
moment for me.
Mārama (24:07):
That's beautiful. How about you, Billie-Jean, when did
you think 'Hmm, I think I've gotthis?
Billie-Jean (24:13):
You don't ever a aha moment, eh, because there's
always something else that youhave to achieve, so there's
always a constant cycle of,we've got something else we're
on now whānau, finally let's gothis way, we've done that, so
it's always about improvingourselves, sp in the kura, but I
think really we, I think, um,here at Kaiti we can, I can
(24:34):
confidently say we're agenuinely bilingual kura, where
te ao Māori me te ao Pakeha areboth valued, you know, and then
we have all of our other specialcultures as well who are, that
are evident and present in the,in the school. I think the other
things too that you know eh whenyour kids are in tune with their
whenua, their maunga, their awa,they know the stories of their
(24:58):
tūpuna, they know their whānaustories, they can stand up and
do their, um, kōreroconfidently to their whānau and
their whānau come in a tribe,they don't come just one member
comes, there's about five or sixof them who come to their hui
when they're presenting, and theother important thing, you know,
we must tie this back to our,our jobs as educators is student
(25:23):
achievement, attendance andengagement. If you've got it
right, you've got high rates ofattendance, your kids are
performing academically andthey're successful not only
academically but culturally andon the sporting field as well.
Mārama (25:38):
That's wonderful, being strong in two worlds really,
isn't it? Mel, how about, uhm,have you ever had any aha
moments you could share
Mel (25:47):
Oh, aē. I think, um, in both that I have led as tumuaki,
um, that that point where ākokaMāori who previously did not
outwardly show that pride inbeing Māori, uh, stand tall and
proud in their identity asMāori, and are proud to be
(26:08):
Māori and are achieving thatsuccess, both academically,
culturally, really strong in, inbeing Māori. I think that's,
that's something pretty specialas you, as you see that evolve,
in, um, tamariki who, who youmight not have seen it in
previously. I think in the samespace for whānau. As you see
(26:29):
whānau grow in their confidencearound being Māori and, uh,
their voice growing, and then tothe point that whānau and their
tamariki drive what is happeningin your kura, in that te ao
Māori space. So it's, in somekura that I support, it's gone
from a space where tumuaki andkaiako are, are driving this to
(26:53):
progress it to a point whereactually, it's not about them at
all, it's actually about thewhānau who, who are driving
what's happening in that kaupapaMāori space. Super exciting
Mārama (27:04):
It is, that's really exciting. I, I, after this year,
I was pretty, um,stoked at roadpatrol the other day. A little
Indian boy came up and he waspractising his mōrena, kei te
pēhea koe whaea. And then hewanted to learn how to say he
was awake, so yeah, that waspretty special and then his dad
doing that in the morning. me.And so, thinking again, for
(27:26):
advice for our beginningprincipals and perhaps aspiring
principals, what, what, werowould give to them, if they're
thinking of starting thisleadership journey, whe would
you go, what would you start, orwhat would you do? Robyn.
Robyn (27:40):
I would probably say, 'Look at where you're at' and
for you to authentically begiving effect to Te Tiriti o
Waitangi, what do you first needto do, because I remember even
10 years down the track, I havea lot of being non-Māori myself,
having a lot of teachers in thekura that could support me there.
It was a few years ago, Ithought actually, 'I need to
(28:02):
take my journey, I need to bethe role model for my teachers
that aren't on a reo journey, Ineed to be their role model'. So
,again , enrolling in wānangaand then getting immersed in not
only the reo, but the tikangathat sits with it made me a much
stronger leader, made me willingto take more risks, so I think
you've first got to look not atwhat you have to legally do as a
(28:25):
first-time principal around TeTiriti, because a lot of that is
there, but how do youauthentically give effect to Te
Tiriti in your role as a tumuakiin any school, regardless of the
percentage of Māori students orPasifika students that you have.
So, it's that looking first andI think it's one of the most
important things, probably aheadof knowing your Sue report or
(28:46):
some of those things, butactually how can I authentically
jump into this role, givingeffect to Te Tiriti o Waitangi.
Mārama (28:54):
Yeah, actually made me think, um, Robyn, about how
perhaps our perceptions ofTiriti have changed, where it
was for Māori, but actually,it's for those who are coming to
our country, our Tiriti was toform and allow our, um, it to
come to our country, which isreally important distinction to
know. Billie-Jean, what kind ofwero would you give to our
(29:16):
first-time beginning andaspiring principles?
Billie-Jean (29:20):
Don't overthink it, for us to be natural, just be
yourself, don't overthink it,and start with something simple
like celebrating Waitangi Day atthe beginning of the year. So
that is the kaupapa that we haveat the start of every year, at
the beginning of the year wetalk about the Treaty. We talk
(29:41):
about what is the Treaty, wemake our own treaties in our
classrooms. So those sorts ofthings that you can, simple
enactions in the curriculum,where everyone can be learning
about the Treaty and then wehave Waitangi Day celebrations.
So that's a simple, one of thesimple things. But as a leader,
you've got to keep up to playwith what's happening in the
(30:01):
world of education, and a lot'sbeen spoken about the Treaty at
the moment. So we, you know,when you're hearing lots of
things been spoken about with TeTiriti, it's important as a
leader for me in my mind I'malways going, how does that
affect me as a leader in thekura, and how will that decision
that's currently being spokenabout affect the children that
(30:25):
I'm responsible for. So in mymind I'm always thinking and
taking a position on things andthinking about the position that
other people hold as well inregards to the treaty.
Mārama (30:37):
And Mel, have you got anything or any wero to share?
Mel (30:41):
U, I think one is
is take your time, take your inall that you do. Uh, Billie-Jean
was really talking about thelens, I think. That's how I
heard you, Billie-Jean, thinkingabout what lens are you viewing
things through, and thinkingabout the lens that others have.
So I think that that is reallyimportant. I think, um, knowing
(31:06):
ko wai, ko wai tō iwi, ko waika iwi in the space that your
kura is situated, w are, who areiwi, who are hapū, who are mana
whenua, and learning what isimportant to them, and what are
their aspirations, because thatshould guide you in the way you
are leading and what you do inyour kura. Um, one of our other
(31:32):
colleagues talked about being alearner, and I think it's seeing
yourself as that learner on thatjourney is really important and
engaging in experiences yourselfas a leader to build that
knowledge and understandingyourself so that the people you
support see you as a learner aswell. I think that's very
important,
Mārama (31:52):
Thank you so much, guys. It's been wonderful talking to
you all, and that's some reallygreat advice that you've given
us. Ngā mihi nui ki a koutou.
Billie-Jean (32:00):
Ka kite whānau.
Robyn (32:01):
Ka kite.
Mel (32:02):
Kia ora, ka kite.
Mārama (32:04):
In the next episode, Eleisha will be talking about
professional growth cycles forprincipals. Mā
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Two Guys, Five Rings: Matt, Bowen & The Olympics
Two Guys (Bowen Yang and Matt Rogers). Five Rings (you know, from the Olympics logo). One essential podcast for the 2026 Milan-Cortina Winter Olympics. Bowen Yang (SNL, Wicked) and Matt Rogers (Palm Royale, No Good Deed) of Las Culturistas are back for a second season of Two Guys, Five Rings, a collaboration with NBC Sports and iHeartRadio. In this 15-episode event, Bowen and Matt discuss the top storylines, obsess over Italian culture, and find out what really goes on in the Olympic Village.