October 12, 2025 • 20 mins
In this episode, we discuss the Professional Growth Cycle for principals. We’ll talk about how the approach to principal development has evolved from the old ‘banana boxes of evidence’ system to a trust-based model that prioritises meaningful professional learning and honest feedback, and our guests share practical insights on setting impactful goals, building accountability into peer networks, and creating spaces for both professional challenge and emotional support.
Hosted by Eleisha McNeill.
Our guests are:
- Rose-Anne London from the Teaching Council
- Ben Hutchings, tumuaki of Mountain View School in Mangere, Auckland
- John Channer, principal at Fraser Crescent School in Upper Hutt, Wellington.
This podcast was produced for the Ministry of Education.
You can learn more by accessing the e-learning modules for principals on the Education LMS: https://training.education.govt.nz
Additional information
Teaching Council of Aotearoa New Zealand https://teachingcouncil.nz/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eleisha (00:08):
Kia ora, and welcome to The Principals, a podcast series
for existing and aspiringtumuaki in Aotearoa New Zealand.
I'm Eleisha McNeill. Today we'retalking about the professional
growth cycle for principals,actually, that's what we're
talking about for the next twoepisodes, so we'll crack right
into it. I'll ask my guests tointroduce themselves, uhm,
(00:30):
starting with you, Rose-Anne.
Rose-Anne (00:32):
Sure. Tēnā koutou katoa. Ko Ahumairangi te maunga,
ko Te Whanganui-a-Tara te whanga,ko Pipitia te marae, no Te
Ātiawa te manawhenua, koMatutū Aotearoa te wahi mahi,
ko Rosanne London tōku ingoa,ko Aoteatahi o nga Tohutohu
Mātua mō te Matutū Aotearoa.Tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou,
(00:55):
tēnā koutou katoa. My name isRose-Anne London and I'm one of
the teachers working at theTeaching Council as a Senior
Advisor in the Relationships andEngagement team. Kia ora.
Eleisha (01:07):
Thank you. Ben.
Ben (01:09):
Kia ora everybody. Ko Ben Hutchings ahau, nō Ingarangi
ōku tipuna, ko Taumaki Makaurautōku kāinga, ko tauiwi tōku
iwi, ko Hutchings tōku whānau,ko Antonia Rawa, ko Nick tōku
mātua, kō Te Kura TirohangaMaunga te kura. I'm Ben, from
Mountain View School, the schoolwith the best view of Māngere
Mountain, Te Pane o Mataoho inMāngere, we're called Māngere
(01:33):
Bridge but our kids say thatthey're from 275, so we're
Māngere proud. Um, school ofabout 320 kids, we've doubled in
size in the last two years and,I'm on a journey, over the last
five years of leading a in areally, uh, kind of rich
cultural oasis in Auckland.
Eleisha (01:52):
Awesome. Thank you.
John (01:54):
Ngā mihi koutou, no Ingarangi ahau, he tumuaki ahau
i Te Kura au Fraser Crescent, koJohn Channer tokū ingoa. Kia
ora, I'm the principal here atFraser Crescent in Wellington.
I'm close to 20 years now in myrole here, love our community,
(02:14):
really diverse school, and uh,very passionate principalship.
Eleisha (02:18):
Awesome, thank you. So Rose-Anne, if we can start with
the basics, can you please breakdown what the professional
growth cycle looks like now, andwhat a principal does
differently compared to the oldappraisal days?
Rose-Anne (02:31):
So the professional grow cycle was a really big
shift in how we supportprincipals, tumuaki and ECE
professional leaders acrossAotearoa. It wasn't just a new
system but it was a real mindsetshift. So moving from, instead
of ticking boxes to buildingtrust and collaboration and a
(02:52):
real deep commitment to equityand excellence. It's grounded in
Tiriti o Waitangi and Our Code,Our Standards and is really
designed to help grow leaders tothrive in their roles There's
six key elements. Each of themare about building capability,
connection and confidence. Sofirstly, principals and
professional leaders, theyfacilitate a collective
(03:13):
understanding of the standardsin their setting, and as well as
that, develop a understanding ofwhat that looks like in the
other schools or early childhoodservices that are in their
network.
Eleisha (03:24):
Mm.
Rose-Anne (03:25):
Secondly, the leaders shape and grow their own
professional growth cycle sothey plan it out and then meet
or share it with their presidingboard member and to discuss how
they're going to be supportedwith it. Next, the professional
growth cycle at its real heartis about professional learning.
(03:46):
Leaders engage in professionallearning through their learning
networks and with the standardsand use that to springboard and
grow their practice. Feedbackplays a really key role. So for
principals, the key is thatthey've got actively seek
feedback
Eleisha (04:03):
Mm. Mm.
Rose-Anne (04:03):
from a range of sources and this can include
their presiding board members,or colleagues, or the teachers,
or whānau of their schools.Each year a colleague from the
principal's professionallearning network will confirm
whether or not the principal hasengaged in the professional
growth cycle and is meeting thestandards according to their
(04:25):
practicing certificate type.That principal who is confirming
that needs to hold a Tūturufull category one practicing
certificate. What's reallyimportant, is that this doesn't
require collecting evidencedocuments. So
Eleisha (04:39):
Mm.
Rose-Anne (04:39):
in the old days, we used to have banana boxes of
evidence that we would bring toour endorser to show that we're
meeting the standards. We don'tneed to do that now. It's
grounded in professionalconversations and trust.
Eleisha (04:51):
yeah.
Rose-Anne (04:52):
Then finally if there's concerns about whether a
principal meets the standards,there's need to have a for the
endorser to have a conversationwith the principal first, with a
focus on growth and development.And formal performance
management is only used whenprogress isn't made.
Eleisha (05:07):
OK, so you talked there about professional learning
networks, as I understand itthere also called a professional
learning group or a PLG andthat's part of the PGC because
those groups are kind of like avehicle for professional
learning and development whereprincipals work together to
improve their practice, is thatright? Cool, cool. So banana
(05:30):
boxes full of evidence, itsounds pretty hardcore so it
sounds like it's a little biteasier of a system now. Would
you agree with that John? Havingbeen in the role for 20 years
I'm imagining you went throughthat system?
John (05:41):
Definitely. I think it's around yeah, shifting into a
high-trust environment, you know,collegial sign-off through
active involvement in aprofessional growth cycle, saw a
shift from approving toimproving,
Eleisha (05:55):
Mm.
John (05:56):
and it meant that that involvement demonstrating the
standards through your, uh,inquiry approach has replaced
the old appraisal model. Uh, andwe are in a really fortunate
position as principals that wecan actually collegially achieve
our professional sign-off,because in many other
professions, of course, it'sdone through an external process,
but I think the really key thingto notice is that the process
(06:19):
needs to be done well.
Eleisha (06:21):
Yeah, 100%. Ben, what does your PGC process look like
when you're at the beginning ofit?
Ben (06:28):
So... little bit of a different scenario. I started my
principal journey in 2021. Wewere mid way through COVID. It I
don't know. We'd lived the dreamof lockdowns and all the rest of
that sort of thing, so becominga better principal wasn't really
top of the agenda, it was justjumping in and making sure you
were heading in the rightdirection, your community was
(06:49):
getting what you needed. So itwasn't until 2022, I was kind of
like I need to figure out howI'm going to keep track of the
things that I need to work onwithout playing professional
whack-a-mole. And I think thefreedom that the new system has
allowed is you're, you're ableto set your own sort of pace of
learning and figure out what itis that you actually need to
work on. But it's a reallycomplex task developing it,
(07:11):
particularly when you're earlyon. So we, we had our education
advisors from EvaluationAssociates. But that can be an
interesting process just becauseyou're not working with somebody
who's currently a principal,understanding that journey,
particularly at that time. So Isat down with a mate who entered
principalship a year earlierthan I did, And we decided on
(07:34):
what it was that we needed atthat stage in our careers. So we
something that we enjoyed.Something that focused on
innovating and not replicating.We didn't want to take ourselves
too seriously. We wanted to bepart of a group that had frank
and open and honestconversations. Wanted it to be
collaborative and notcompetitive. An it needed to be
(07:56):
at that point outcomes-based.And what it wasn't was a venue
for venting, assignments orhomework because that wasn't
part of the brief.So that,aligning with all the
expectations set out in thestandards, well as a couple of
other key leadership documents,we decided that it was best to
set up a group. But a big partof what we needed early on was a
(08:18):
sense of accountability. Becauseyou can float quite easily. And
I think that's what John mighthave been alluding to about the
process being done well, at itsvery barest minimum, it can just
be somebody signing you off ifyou have a hands-off board. So
there's quite a few elementsthat need to align for it to be
done in a way that I don't know,professional rigor. That's
(08:40):
definitely on a principal to dobut I don't know, we're busy
people and one term can turninto two terms can turn into
three terms. So creating asystem for us was about building
in some facets of accountability.Some of the things that we've
included, one of them is we do adaisy chain set of interviews,
so we go into each other'sschools and interview a random
subset of people, and then wehave a Google form, so an
(09:05):
anonymous survey that we sendout to staff which we all use
and get feedback on and send ananalysis to whoever's signing us
off. And so there's littleelements of accountability in
there which, cos we're all inour first sort of five to seven
years of principalship. So
Eleisha (09:20):
Mm
Ben (09:21):
not fresh fresh, but fresh enough. And then dealing with
learning, it's about setting apie in the sky goal and then a
day-to-day goal. So,a smartgoal and an enquiry goal and we
kind of, that's what our twomeetings a term are focused
around addressing. Uh, so that'srepeated each year. We start at
the beginning of term four,that's the beginning of our
(09:42):
cycle as we set goals for thefollowing year and then finish
up, uh, at the end of term three.So just finishing up this cycle
in next few weeks.
Eleisha (09:51):
Right, and you know, there's a lot about goal setting
in there, so how do you setthose kinds of goals that you're
care about, kind of six monthsdown the track? You know, a lot
can happen when you're aprincipal in six months, so how
can you anticipate what's stillgoing to be important to you in
six months, I suppose, with somethings you can? Um, John.
John (10:10):
Yeah, I think firstly, it's about setting goals that
are really, um, meaningful foryourself, and you're ongoing
professional growth, because Ithink if you do value that goal,
you're way more likely to, tolive it. We ask that our, um,
professional growth membersshare their goal, and the
ongoing process that we have, weput our PGC groups into trios
(10:33):
where they share back, soinstead of doing that at a wider
group, our groups are quite big,so they share that in a trio.
And, the next thing, obviously,is ensure that at every meeting,
th obviously really dedicatedtime to, um, unpack what those
goals look like, the progress onthe goals and the feedback.
Eleisha (10:52):
Mm.
John (10:52):
So we've spent quite a bit of time around getting a really
good feedback and sort ofco-mentoring model in place, and
that really enables people Iguess, when they're, instead of
just sharing, we share with apurpose, so people might want to
share and be coached throughwhat they're doing around their
goal, or they may want tocollaboratively problem-solve
(11:14):
with the people in their trio,so we're really quite focused, I
guess, on how we actually drillreally into it.
Eleisha (11:20):
Mm.
John (11:21):
And the other thing I think with the goals is making
sure when you can, it's alignedwith as much data as possible.
You know, I, I heard a, a reallyinformative speaker a couple of
years ago and he raised theinteresting question around,
what's the difference between aprofessional inquiry and just
somebody's story or journey? Ithink that, that the key answer
(11:41):
in that for me is around sort ofdata and growth and those sorts
of things, so, um, instead ofsomebody just sharing what is a,
maybe a really positive andengaging self-fulfilling
prophecy of something they'veachieved, it's way more
important when you can to reallydig deep to you know, seek
clarification, challenge,explore the data that might be
(12:02):
supporting what they're saying.
Eleisha (12:04):
Yeah. So you mentioned there you've got quite a large
learning network. How manypeople are in your learning
network?
John (12:10):
So we do ours quite differently, so I'm involved in
sort of both jointly running andparticipating in two large PLG.
So we have a dozen peopleroughly in each one, and as I
said that's why we do theprofessional work in our trios.
Eleisha (12:26):
Right.
John (12:27):
We meet at least once a term, we always try and meet in
the middle of the term so thatwe know when it's sort of coming
up and things like that. One ofthe things we always start our
year with, I know I'm jumpingback a little bit here, but we
spend a lot of time each year,even though some of the people
in the group remain the same,but we spend a lot of time
developing a shared way ofworking and setting up in effect
(12:51):
four to six really golden rulesfor our group and, you know, we
collaboratively bring thosetogether and we critique them
and challenge them. But we comeout at the end with some, I
guess foundationalunderstandings that set up the
work that we have going forwardfor the year. And I think the
reason that's really importantis, you know, you do need to
(13:12):
challenge and you do need tocritique and a lot of
professional learning groups, ah,people are really friendly and
they're very supportive which isgreat and it's often needed, but
you need those really robustdiscussions and sometimes you
need to really challenge or askpeople for evidence and what
they're doing.
Eleisha (13:29):
Hmm.
John (13:29):
And
Eleisha (13:29):
Hmm.
John (13:29):
I think if you don't have the groundwork right for that
early on and people expecting,you know, ac and they're
expecting, you know, challengeand professional robustness,
they can come as a surpriselater on. So yeah, we spend a
lot of time in the early part ofthe year establishing those ways
of working.
Eleisha (13:48):
Yeah. And what about, what about you Ben, you know you
mentioned there, your initialgoals that you set, you're
coming to the end of a cycle now,and you're going through the
process of setting new goals. Sohow do you go about that? Is it
a reflective process,collaborative process?
Ben (14:05):
Yeah, so a lot of it comes through feedback and John was
talking about data, so we'vebuilt data into our cycles and
in different formats of that. So,it'll either come from, if it's
achievement based or studentoutcome based, or if it's
professional learning, it'll bebased on feedback that we're
receiving from teachers. We useour Google Forms and the
(14:29):
anonymous surveys to createquestions around different types
of leadership style that wethink that we need, uh, feedback
on and then get that, that andbring it to the table and go,
what do we pull apart from this,we'll help each other set goals
based on that sort of feedback.So it's always, I suppose the
litmus test for us over the lastfew, few years is if we feel
(14:50):
like somebody begins rambling,um, without the evidence to sit
alongside it then we have thatsort of conversation that's John
that John's talking about and go,well, where's that coming from?
Yeah, particul when you'retalking about meetings and
formats, um, we've been togetherfor, for four years, so it's
quite... people understand thisis, you know it's, it's not
something that you need to becoy about, it's an open forum
(15:13):
that you can sit down and kindof be a little bit vulnerable
through. That takes time thoughand it takes the type of people,
particularly when you're earlyon in your career, who you feel
like you can open up to, becauseit's it can be a torrid job at
times and and we've all gonethrough different elements where,
you know, the goal has been justgetting better relationships
(15:33):
with boards of trustees, orgetting through a crisis at your
school, that's where the goalsshift, so it's responding to the
reality of a scenario. I thinkthe difference between a formal
professional learning groupsetup and the network that we
have, it's a support network, aswell as a professional learning
(15:54):
group, so we're able
Eleisha (15:55):
Hmm,
Ben (15:55):
to meet both of those needs. We'll quite often have one
meeting that focuses, cos we dotwo a term, we'll have one
meeting that focuses on dealingwith whatever's there for one
person, and if we spent thatmeeting with that person
discussing the issues that werefacing them,then the next
meeting, it'll be about focusingon the goal.
Eleisha (16:15):
hmm. Right, um, Rose-Anne, I wanted to check in
and see if you wanted to addanything?
Rose-Anne (16:20):
We do see principals sometimes struggling with
clarity around goals, and whatwe find is that without that
real clear sense of direction,the professional growth cycle
can feel really disconnectedfrom everyday
Eleisha (16:33):
Hmm,
Rose-Anne (16:34):
work. We've got some refreshed resources that are
coming out later this year withthe 2026 standards. So we're
hoping that that the refreshedresources, the 2026 standards
and the role of the focus areasmight help with some of that
clarity around goals forprincipals. That's a hope.
Eleisha (16:52):
So we've talked a lot about feedback and the
importance of honest feedbackand obviously, you know, Ben you
mentioned that it takes time tobuild those relationships to be
able to give each other honestfeedback. How you ask for honest
feedback without feeling awkward,and how do you handle negative
feedback when you don't reallywant to hear it?
Ben (17:11):
I think expecting that it's going to come should be the
premise that you arrive with.Yeah, that takes whanaungatanga
and relationship building tostart with. And I think if
you're part of a larger grouplike John is, then building
those those cultural norms, likewe would with kids in our
classroom or with staff, is theway to go. We started from a
(17:35):
perspective of being quitevulnerable from the very
beginning, because we started inat an interesting time.
Eleisha (17:41):
Hmm.
Ben (17:42):
And therefore our relationships were built through,
you know, a little bit ofhardship and, you know, fast
learning and breaking andremaking and so it was less
about, less about not wantingfeedback but expecting it and
needing it because there weretimes where we felt like we were
building as we were going.
Eleisha (18:01):
Hmm,
Ben (18:02):
I think yeah, if you're going into a learning cycle and
treating it like a test that youneed to get 100% out then you
need to reframe your thinking.And as leaders, it's that kind
of behooves us to to be in thatsame position, it's the one
place where we're in the sameposition that we ask our
teachers to be in.
Eleisha (18:22):
yeah.
Ben (18:22):
And it should be, in my, in my head, it should be a
professional expectation that ifif you're willing to give it,
then you've got to be willing totake it. Easier said than done
though because we're proudpeople and we're chiefs in our
own kingdom.
Eleisha (18:34):
What do agree, John?
John (18:36):
Yeah,I totally agree with what Ben is saying there, if you
expect that it's coming as partof the process and, you know,
outlining right from thebeginning that need for, you
know, robustness andaccountability and that, you
know, the focus should be aroundgrowth. I like what Ben said
about, you know, it's not a test,it's not about getting 100% it's
(18:56):
about starting and being on ajourney of improvement and and
part of that comes through, youknow, toughness and critique,
some people do like that, youknow, some people don't want all
the, you know, the the nice patson the back and the frilly stuff
and it is, it is challengingbecause these professional
networks provide both that indepth talk and the rigor and and
(19:19):
and the growth stuff, butprincipalship can be a really
challenging job and there aredays people come to a meeting
and largely what they need is apat on the back and some
encouragement and some lookingafter. So there's a real balance
between when and how hard youcan push and and delve into
things, and just understandingthat, you know, the different I
(19:41):
guess emotional states peoplemight come into in a meeting,
but, but without doubt settingit right up from the beginning
that, you know, there will besome tough times ahead, that's
to be expected, and having allof the frameworks in place that
you can and those rules in placeright from the beginning around.
And just how to question, youknow, how to you know, seek
(20:03):
clarity and understanding ofwhat someone else is doing I
think all helps.
Eleisha (20:07):
Excellent advice there, thank you. Um, Rose-Anne, John
and Ben are going to be back inthe next episode, when we'll
talk about how PGC work hashelped them navigate leadership
challenges and also some of thecommon mistakes principals make
with their professional growthcycles.
Kia ora, and welcome to The Principals, a podcast series
for existing and aspiringtumuaki in Aotearoa New Zealand.
I'm Eleisha McNeill. Today we'retalking about the professional
growth cycle for principals,actually, that's what we're
talking about for the next twoepisodes, so we'll crack right
into it. I'll ask my guests tointroduce themselves, uhm,
(00:30):
starting with you, Rose-Anne.
Rose-Anne (00:32):
Sure. Tēnā koutou katoa. Ko Ahumairangi te maunga,
ko Te Whanganui-a-Tara te whanga,ko Pipitia te marae, no Te
Ātiawa te manawhenua, koMatutū Aotearoa te wahi mahi,
ko Rosanne London tōku ingoa,ko Aoteatahi o nga Tohutohu
Mātua mō te Matutū Aotearoa.Tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou,
(00:55):
tēnā koutou katoa. My name isRose-Anne London and I'm one of
the teachers working at theTeaching Council as a Senior
Advisor in the Relationships andEngagement team. Kia ora.
Eleisha (01:07):
Thank you. Ben.
Ben (01:09):
Kia ora everybody. Ko Ben Hutchings ahau, nō Ingarangi
ōku tipuna, ko Taumaki Makaurautōku kāinga, ko tauiwi tōku
iwi, ko Hutchings tōku whānau,ko Antonia Rawa, ko Nick tōku
mātua, kō Te Kura TirohangaMaunga te kura. I'm Ben, from
Mountain View School, the schoolwith the best view of Māngere
Mountain, Te Pane o Mataoho inMāngere, we're called Māngere
(01:33):
Bridge but our kids say thatthey're from 275, so we're
Māngere proud. Um, school ofabout 320 kids, we've doubled in
size in the last two years and,I'm on a journey, over the last
five years of leading a in areally, uh, kind of rich
cultural oasis in Auckland.
Eleisha (01:52):
Awesome. Thank you.
John (01:54):
Ngā mihi koutou, no Ingarangi ahau, he tumuaki ahau
i Te Kura au Fraser Crescent, koJohn Channer tokū ingoa. Kia
ora, I'm the principal here atFraser Crescent in Wellington.
I'm close to 20 years now in myrole here, love our community,
(02:14):
really diverse school, and uh,very passionate principalship.
Eleisha (02:18):
Awesome, thank you. So Rose-Anne, if we can start with
the basics, can you please breakdown what the professional
growth cycle looks like now, andwhat a principal does
differently compared to the oldappraisal days?
Rose-Anne (02:31):
So the professional grow cycle was a really big
shift in how we supportprincipals, tumuaki and ECE
professional leaders acrossAotearoa. It wasn't just a new
system but it was a real mindsetshift. So moving from, instead
of ticking boxes to buildingtrust and collaboration and a
(02:52):
real deep commitment to equityand excellence. It's grounded in
Tiriti o Waitangi and Our Code,Our Standards and is really
designed to help grow leaders tothrive in their roles There's
six key elements. Each of themare about building capability,
connection and confidence. Sofirstly, principals and
professional leaders, theyfacilitate a collective
(03:13):
understanding of the standardsin their setting, and as well as
that, develop a understanding ofwhat that looks like in the
other schools or early childhoodservices that are in their
network.
Eleisha (03:24):
Mm.
Rose-Anne (03:25):
Secondly, the leaders shape and grow their own
professional growth cycle sothey plan it out and then meet
or share it with their presidingboard member and to discuss how
they're going to be supportedwith it. Next, the professional
growth cycle at its real heartis about professional learning.
(03:46):
Leaders engage in professionallearning through their learning
networks and with the standardsand use that to springboard and
grow their practice. Feedbackplays a really key role. So for
principals, the key is thatthey've got actively seek
feedback
Eleisha (04:03):
Mm. Mm.
Rose-Anne (04:03):
from a range of sources and this can include
their presiding board members,or colleagues, or the teachers,
or whānau of their schools.Each year a colleague from the
principal's professionallearning network will confirm
whether or not the principal hasengaged in the professional
growth cycle and is meeting thestandards according to their
(04:25):
practicing certificate type.That principal who is confirming
that needs to hold a Tūturufull category one practicing
certificate. What's reallyimportant, is that this doesn't
require collecting evidencedocuments. So
Eleisha (04:39):
Mm.
Rose-Anne (04:39):
in the old days, we used to have banana boxes of
evidence that we would bring toour endorser to show that we're
meeting the standards. We don'tneed to do that now. It's
grounded in professionalconversations and trust.
Eleisha (04:51):
yeah.
Rose-Anne (04:52):
Then finally if there's concerns about whether a
principal meets the standards,there's need to have a for the
endorser to have a conversationwith the principal first, with a
focus on growth and development.And formal performance
management is only used whenprogress isn't made.
Eleisha (05:07):
OK, so you talked there about professional learning
networks, as I understand itthere also called a professional
learning group or a PLG andthat's part of the PGC because
those groups are kind of like avehicle for professional
learning and development whereprincipals work together to
improve their practice, is thatright? Cool, cool. So banana
(05:30):
boxes full of evidence, itsounds pretty hardcore so it
sounds like it's a little biteasier of a system now. Would
you agree with that John? Havingbeen in the role for 20 years
I'm imagining you went throughthat system?
John (05:41):
Definitely. I think it's around yeah, shifting into a
high-trust environment, you know,collegial sign-off through
active involvement in aprofessional growth cycle, saw a
shift from approving toimproving,
Eleisha (05:55):
Mm.
John (05:56):
and it meant that that involvement demonstrating the
standards through your, uh,inquiry approach has replaced
the old appraisal model. Uh, andwe are in a really fortunate
position as principals that wecan actually collegially achieve
our professional sign-off,because in many other
professions, of course, it'sdone through an external process,
but I think the really key thingto notice is that the process
(06:19):
needs to be done well.
Eleisha (06:21):
Yeah, 100%. Ben, what does your PGC process look like
when you're at the beginning ofit?
Ben (06:28):
So... little bit of a different scenario. I started my
principal journey in 2021. Wewere mid way through COVID. It I
don't know. We'd lived the dreamof lockdowns and all the rest of
that sort of thing, so becominga better principal wasn't really
top of the agenda, it was justjumping in and making sure you
were heading in the rightdirection, your community was
(06:49):
getting what you needed. So itwasn't until 2022, I was kind of
like I need to figure out howI'm going to keep track of the
things that I need to work onwithout playing professional
whack-a-mole. And I think thefreedom that the new system has
allowed is you're, you're ableto set your own sort of pace of
learning and figure out what itis that you actually need to
work on. But it's a reallycomplex task developing it,
(07:11):
particularly when you're earlyon. So we, we had our education
advisors from EvaluationAssociates. But that can be an
interesting process just becauseyou're not working with somebody
who's currently a principal,understanding that journey,
particularly at that time. So Isat down with a mate who entered
principalship a year earlierthan I did, And we decided on
(07:34):
what it was that we needed atthat stage in our careers. So we
something that we enjoyed.Something that focused on
innovating and not replicating.We didn't want to take ourselves
too seriously. We wanted to bepart of a group that had frank
and open and honestconversations. Wanted it to be
collaborative and notcompetitive. An it needed to be
(07:56):
at that point outcomes-based.And what it wasn't was a venue
for venting, assignments orhomework because that wasn't
part of the brief.So that,aligning with all the
expectations set out in thestandards, well as a couple of
other key leadership documents,we decided that it was best to
set up a group. But a big partof what we needed early on was a
(08:18):
sense of accountability. Becauseyou can float quite easily. And
I think that's what John mighthave been alluding to about the
process being done well, at itsvery barest minimum, it can just
be somebody signing you off ifyou have a hands-off board. So
there's quite a few elementsthat need to align for it to be
done in a way that I don't know,professional rigor. That's
(08:40):
definitely on a principal to dobut I don't know, we're busy
people and one term can turninto two terms can turn into
three terms. So creating asystem for us was about building
in some facets of accountability.Some of the things that we've
included, one of them is we do adaisy chain set of interviews,
so we go into each other'sschools and interview a random
subset of people, and then wehave a Google form, so an
(09:05):
anonymous survey that we sendout to staff which we all use
and get feedback on and send ananalysis to whoever's signing us
off. And so there's littleelements of accountability in
there which, cos we're all inour first sort of five to seven
years of principalship. So
Eleisha (09:20):
Mm
Ben (09:21):
not fresh fresh, but fresh enough. And then dealing with
learning, it's about setting apie in the sky goal and then a
day-to-day goal. So,a smartgoal and an enquiry goal and we
kind of, that's what our twomeetings a term are focused
around addressing. Uh, so that'srepeated each year. We start at
the beginning of term four,that's the beginning of our
(09:42):
cycle as we set goals for thefollowing year and then finish
up, uh, at the end of term three.So just finishing up this cycle
in next few weeks.
Eleisha (09:51):
Right, and you know, there's a lot about goal setting
in there, so how do you setthose kinds of goals that you're
care about, kind of six monthsdown the track? You know, a lot
can happen when you're aprincipal in six months, so how
can you anticipate what's stillgoing to be important to you in
six months, I suppose, with somethings you can? Um, John.
John (10:10):
Yeah, I think firstly, it's about setting goals that
are really, um, meaningful foryourself, and you're ongoing
professional growth, because Ithink if you do value that goal,
you're way more likely to, tolive it. We ask that our, um,
professional growth membersshare their goal, and the
ongoing process that we have, weput our PGC groups into trios
(10:33):
where they share back, soinstead of doing that at a wider
group, our groups are quite big,so they share that in a trio.
And, the next thing, obviously,is ensure that at every meeting,
th obviously really dedicatedtime to, um, unpack what those
goals look like, the progress onthe goals and the feedback.
Eleisha (10:52):
Mm.
John (10:52):
So we've spent quite a bit of time around getting a really
good feedback and sort ofco-mentoring model in place, and
that really enables people Iguess, when they're, instead of
just sharing, we share with apurpose, so people might want to
share and be coached throughwhat they're doing around their
goal, or they may want tocollaboratively problem-solve
(11:14):
with the people in their trio,so we're really quite focused, I
guess, on how we actually drillreally into it.
Eleisha (11:20):
Mm.
John (11:21):
And the other thing I think with the goals is making
sure when you can, it's alignedwith as much data as possible.
You know, I, I heard a, a reallyinformative speaker a couple of
years ago and he raised theinteresting question around,
what's the difference between aprofessional inquiry and just
somebody's story or journey? Ithink that, that the key answer
(11:41):
in that for me is around sort ofdata and growth and those sorts
of things, so, um, instead ofsomebody just sharing what is a,
maybe a really positive andengaging self-fulfilling
prophecy of something they'veachieved, it's way more
important when you can to reallydig deep to you know, seek
clarification, challenge,explore the data that might be
(12:02):
supporting what they're saying.
Eleisha (12:04):
Yeah. So you mentioned there you've got quite a large
learning network. How manypeople are in your learning
network?
John (12:10):
So we do ours quite differently, so I'm involved in
sort of both jointly running andparticipating in two large PLG.
So we have a dozen peopleroughly in each one, and as I
said that's why we do theprofessional work in our trios.
Eleisha (12:26):
Right.
John (12:27):
We meet at least once a term, we always try and meet in
the middle of the term so thatwe know when it's sort of coming
up and things like that. One ofthe things we always start our
year with, I know I'm jumpingback a little bit here, but we
spend a lot of time each year,even though some of the people
in the group remain the same,but we spend a lot of time
developing a shared way ofworking and setting up in effect
(12:51):
four to six really golden rulesfor our group and, you know, we
collaboratively bring thosetogether and we critique them
and challenge them. But we comeout at the end with some, I
guess foundationalunderstandings that set up the
work that we have going forwardfor the year. And I think the
reason that's really importantis, you know, you do need to
(13:12):
challenge and you do need tocritique and a lot of
professional learning groups, ah,people are really friendly and
they're very supportive which isgreat and it's often needed, but
you need those really robustdiscussions and sometimes you
need to really challenge or askpeople for evidence and what
they're doing.
Eleisha (13:29):
Hmm.
John (13:29):
And
Eleisha (13:29):
Hmm.
John (13:29):
I think if you don't have the groundwork right for that
early on and people expecting,you know, ac and they're
expecting, you know, challengeand professional robustness,
they can come as a surpriselater on. So yeah, we spend a
lot of time in the early part ofthe year establishing those ways
of working.
Eleisha (13:48):
Yeah. And what about, what about you Ben, you know you
mentioned there, your initialgoals that you set, you're
coming to the end of a cycle now,and you're going through the
process of setting new goals. Sohow do you go about that? Is it
a reflective process,collaborative process?
Ben (14:05):
Yeah, so a lot of it comes through feedback and John was
talking about data, so we'vebuilt data into our cycles and
in different formats of that. So,it'll either come from, if it's
achievement based or studentoutcome based, or if it's
professional learning, it'll bebased on feedback that we're
receiving from teachers. We useour Google Forms and the
(14:29):
anonymous surveys to createquestions around different types
of leadership style that wethink that we need, uh, feedback
on and then get that, that andbring it to the table and go,
what do we pull apart from this,we'll help each other set goals
based on that sort of feedback.So it's always, I suppose the
litmus test for us over the lastfew, few years is if we feel
(14:50):
like somebody begins rambling,um, without the evidence to sit
alongside it then we have thatsort of conversation that's John
that John's talking about and go,well, where's that coming from?
Yeah, particul when you'retalking about meetings and
formats, um, we've been togetherfor, for four years, so it's
quite... people understand thisis, you know it's, it's not
something that you need to becoy about, it's an open forum
(15:13):
that you can sit down and kindof be a little bit vulnerable
through. That takes time thoughand it takes the type of people,
particularly when you're earlyon in your career, who you feel
like you can open up to, becauseit's it can be a torrid job at
times and and we've all gonethrough different elements where,
you know, the goal has been justgetting better relationships
(15:33):
with boards of trustees, orgetting through a crisis at your
school, that's where the goalsshift, so it's responding to the
reality of a scenario. I thinkthe difference between a formal
professional learning groupsetup and the network that we
have, it's a support network, aswell as a professional learning
(15:54):
group, so we're able
Eleisha (15:55):
Hmm,
Ben (15:55):
to meet both of those needs. We'll quite often have one
meeting that focuses, cos we dotwo a term, we'll have one
meeting that focuses on dealingwith whatever's there for one
person, and if we spent thatmeeting with that person
discussing the issues that werefacing them,then the next
meeting, it'll be about focusingon the goal.
Eleisha (16:15):
hmm. Right, um, Rose-Anne, I wanted to check in
and see if you wanted to addanything?
Rose-Anne (16:20):
We do see principals sometimes struggling with
clarity around goals, and whatwe find is that without that
real clear sense of direction,the professional growth cycle
can feel really disconnectedfrom everyday
Eleisha (16:33):
Hmm,
Rose-Anne (16:34):
work. We've got some refreshed resources that are
coming out later this year withthe 2026 standards. So we're
hoping that that the refreshedresources, the 2026 standards
and the role of the focus areasmight help with some of that
clarity around goals forprincipals. That's a hope.
Eleisha (16:52):
So we've talked a lot about feedback and the
importance of honest feedbackand obviously, you know, Ben you
mentioned that it takes time tobuild those relationships to be
able to give each other honestfeedback. How you ask for honest
feedback without feeling awkward,and how do you handle negative
feedback when you don't reallywant to hear it?
Ben (17:11):
I think expecting that it's going to come should be the
premise that you arrive with.Yeah, that takes whanaungatanga
and relationship building tostart with. And I think if
you're part of a larger grouplike John is, then building
those those cultural norms, likewe would with kids in our
classroom or with staff, is theway to go. We started from a
(17:35):
perspective of being quitevulnerable from the very
beginning, because we started inat an interesting time.
Eleisha (17:41):
Hmm.
Ben (17:42):
And therefore our relationships were built through,
you know, a little bit ofhardship and, you know, fast
learning and breaking andremaking and so it was less
about, less about not wantingfeedback but expecting it and
needing it because there weretimes where we felt like we were
building as we were going.
Eleisha (18:01):
Hmm,
Ben (18:02):
I think yeah, if you're going into a learning cycle and
treating it like a test that youneed to get 100% out then you
need to reframe your thinking.And as leaders, it's that kind
of behooves us to to be in thatsame position, it's the one
place where we're in the sameposition that we ask our
teachers to be in.
Eleisha (18:22):
yeah.
Ben (18:22):
And it should be, in my, in my head, it should be a
professional expectation that ifif you're willing to give it,
then you've got to be willing totake it. Easier said than done
though because we're proudpeople and we're chiefs in our
own kingdom.
Eleisha (18:34):
What do agree, John?
John (18:36):
Yeah,I totally agree with what Ben is saying there, if you
expect that it's coming as partof the process and, you know,
outlining right from thebeginning that need for, you
know, robustness andaccountability and that, you
know, the focus should be aroundgrowth. I like what Ben said
about, you know, it's not a test,it's not about getting 100% it's
(18:56):
about starting and being on ajourney of improvement and and
part of that comes through, youknow, toughness and critique,
some people do like that, youknow, some people don't want all
the, you know, the the nice patson the back and the frilly stuff
and it is, it is challengingbecause these professional
networks provide both that indepth talk and the rigor and and
(19:19):
and the growth stuff, butprincipalship can be a really
challenging job and there aredays people come to a meeting
and largely what they need is apat on the back and some
encouragement and some lookingafter. So there's a real balance
between when and how hard youcan push and and delve into
things, and just understandingthat, you know, the different I
(19:41):
guess emotional states peoplemight come into in a meeting,
but, but without doubt settingit right up from the beginning
that, you know, there will besome tough times ahead, that's
to be expected, and having allof the frameworks in place that
you can and those rules in placeright from the beginning around.
And just how to question, youknow, how to you know, seek
(20:03):
clarity and understanding ofwhat someone else is doing I
think all helps.
Eleisha (20:07):
Excellent advice there, thank you. Um, Rose-Anne, John
and Ben are going to be back inthe next episode, when we'll
talk about how PGC work hashelped them navigate leadership
challenges and also some of thecommon mistakes principals make
with their professional growthcycles.
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