October 13, 2025 • 19 mins
In this episode, we continue discussing the Professional Growth Cycle for principals, diving deeper into practical implementation, with real examples of how PGC work has helped our guests navigate leadership challenges. We also talk about common pitfalls principals encounter, and offer advice for people struggling to get started.
Hosted by Eleisha McNeill.
Our guests are:
- Rose-Anne London from the Teaching Council
- Ben Hutchings, tumuaki of Mountain View School in Mangere, Auckland
- John Channer, principal at Fraser Crescent School in Upper Hutt, Wellington.
This podcast was produced for the Ministry of Education.
You can learn more by accessing the e-learning modules for principals on the Education LMS: https://training.education.govt.nz
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eleisha (00:08):
Kia ora, and welcome back to The Principals, a
podcast series for current andaspiring tumuaki in Aotearoa New
Zealand. I'm Eleisha McNeill.Today we're continuing the
conversation about theprofessional growth cycle for
principals with my guests BenHutchings, tumuaki of Mountain
View School in Māngere,Auckland, John Channer,
(00:29):
principal at Fraser CrescentSchool in Upper Hutt in
Wellington, and Rose-Anne Londonfrom the Teaching Council of
Aotearoa New Zealand. And I'mgoing to crack right into it,
John, by asking you if you cantell me how some of your PGC
work has changed the way thatyou've handled a real leadership
challenge.
John (00:47):
So one of my professional goals this year it sort of
focuses around how I can better,um, support and develop our
middle leaders within our kura.So one of the things that's been
really useful for me is sharingthat with my trio. They've been
able to, I guess, um, ask melots of questions around my
thinking in that space. We'veshared resources both ways in
(01:10):
terms of, you know, some of thestuff that I've produced in that
area they've sort of critiquedand also, yeah, shared with me
what they've done. And thenanother thing that we do, we do
it every year is we do a, uh,principal school swap within our
wider group. And you basicallygo in as tumuaki into another
school for most of a day, have alook around, ask lots of
(01:33):
questions and we have a documentthat supports that in advance so
that you can really, uh, arriveat the school with some focus of
what you're looking at and knowalso that, uh, when someone is
in your own kura, they're uh,having a look at the stuff that
you want looked at. But whatthat enabled me to do is to
actually sit down in anotherschool and have those
(01:53):
discussions, uh, with with themiddle leaders within that
school and ask them what they'redoing around, you know, what
sort of support they get aroundtheir own professional growth
and what's in place within thatschool. So yeah, it can really
amplify, I guess, what you'relooking to achieve in your
professional goals by sharingthem with others, getti that
(02:14):
feedback, getting that critiqueand then it really doesn't, it's
such a wonderful and privilegedopportunity to go into someone
else's kura and, um, be able tokind of, yeah, explore and learn
and, yeah, really excitingopportunity.
Ben (02:28):
Can I just add to that, uh, I'm going to tag onto the end of
what John said. The, the singlebest PLD that we've had as group
has been, um, that exact thing.So for the last three years,
we've booked, we've called it astudy tour where we've gone and
planned two or three days tohave a look around
Eleisha (02:45):
Hmm.
Ben (02:46):
schools somewhere else, completely different. And going
in with a lens of knowing whateach other's goals are, and
principals welcome us into theirschools, has been yeah the
single biggest impact uh, on uskind of getting our own heads
out of the sand. We justfinished, I got back yesterday
actually from three days inChristchurch looking five
(03:06):
schools down there
Eleisha (03:06):
Oh, wow.
Ben (03:07):
and, um, amazing, so great. An people are really willing to
open their doors and, and youknow, we ask all sorts of tricky
questions. But it's, going,going in with that lens of we
know what each other's workingon and you'll see something and
you'll look at one of your, oneof your network members and go,
there you go, write that down,that's a good idea, you know,
(03:28):
and keeping each other kind offocused, um, yeah, it's a great
opportunity. So, tautoko thatJohn.
Eleisha (03:33):
That's amazing. What a great opportunity to be able to
go and see how other people aredoing things and see how you
might want change or think aboutwhat the way that you're doing
things. So, Rose-Anne, youtalked about the standards as
well, John, and Ben, what, whatdoes it mean to meet the
standards in everyday practicewhen you're dealing with all of
(03:54):
the other things that go in aschool in a day. John.
John (03:59):
I guess for me it's about understanding that they're a bit
of a foundation to yourleadership, you know, a little
bit of a part of your leadershipDNA and not a, uh, an add on to
what you should be doing. Andit's just being really mindful
of you know, there's dozens ofopportunities and things which
(04:19):
happen every day, you know, youmight get the really disgruntled
parent that comes bowling intoyour office and, you know, has a,
has a major issue and it's justsort of I think bringing that
back to things like, you know,the standards considering things
like, professional relationships.Uh, and if you sort of look at
(04:39):
the elaboration that's containedwithin, you know, something like
professional relationships itkind of guides you, I think a
little bit in the best wayforward with that. So yeah, it's
just seeing it as a part of whatyou're doing, not necessarily an
add on or an extra.
Eleisha (04:55):
Yeah. Not something Yeah. Ben, you agree?
Ben (04:57):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's something that you look at
initially and ensure that you'readdressing aspects of it. We did
an exercise right at the verybeginning where we sat down and
aligned standards with aspectsof our leadership. There's an
ERO leadership framework whichwe've used before, and the
Teachers' Council LeadershipFramework and kind of did a, did
(05:19):
a, did a, an alignment thingwhere we went through as a group
and thought if we would were topick a couple of areas that we
may need developing. But I thinkafter our first year, it became
less about looking at it andunderstanding that it's a, it's
a lens that we look at whenwe're doing our sign-off. And as
we sign each other off, sit downand just go right, have you, yes
(05:40):
you have, where do you think andthat's, that's been a little bit
part of our part of our sign-offprocess, but yeah, no, I agree
with John.
Eleisha (05:48):
And Rose-Anne, what are the most common mistakes you
principals making with theirprofessional growth cycle?
Rose-Anne (05:54):
OK, so one of the biggest mistakes is that we see
is principals still treating theprofessional growth cycle as a
compliance exercise.
Eleisha (06:02):
Yeah.
Rose-Anne (06:03):
So although John and Ben seem to be in quite a good
space with it, we still findthat some principals, including
those who are in actingprincipal roles, they feel
pressure to tick boxes orproduce or collate documentation
rather than seeing the processas one about growth. The PGC
(06:25):
isn't about paperwork. It'sabout making sure that that
learning is meaningful andrelates to you and your context.
Another one that's oftenoverlooked, because we're so
focused on goals and making suregoals are like you spoke earlier
about the goals lasting andbeing still of interest in six
months' time. Sometimes we findthat the incidental learning is
(06:47):
a bit overlooked and Ben spokeabout it earlier with the COVID
lockdowns and things like
Eleisha (06:54):
Hmm. Yeah.
Rose-Anne (06:54):
that. That kind of learning wasn't planned, but it
had a huge impact onprofessional practice and on
leadership and development ofleadership and things like that.
The PGC recognises that as validand valuable so it absolutely
counts. Another thing that thatwe do come across is principals
at the, when they're coming upand they're wanting to get
(07:17):
endorsed, that they haven't beenmindful of making sure that the
people in their professionallearning network are actually
eligible to endorse them.
Eleisha (07:25):
Right.
Rose-Anne (07:26):
So they need to make sure that they're currently
working as a principal, thatthey hold that Tūrutu full
category one practicingcertificate, and endorsements
can't be reciprocal. So Johnspoke earlier about having at
least three in the group and ifyou've got at least three in the
group that have that fullcategory one practicing
(07:48):
certificate, you know thateveryone's going to be able to
be endorsed in that space.
Eleisha (07:52):
Hmm. John, did you..
John (07:53):
In terms of some of the simple mistakes that I've seen
and I was really fortunate to beawarded the David Stewart
Memorial scholarship withanother colleague for last year
and we did quite a bit of studyaround what was happening both
with effective and not soeffective professional learning
groups, but it sounds reallybasic, but one of them is around
(08:15):
setting your dates in advance.
Eleisha (08:16):
Yeah . Hmm.
John (08:17):
Like we, we,we set ours all the year before, and keeping
them as consistent and we lookfor clashes with things like
conferences and other bits thatmight impact that, but, um, I've
met with a number of, ofprincipals and their group is
struggling to get off the groundbecause they simply are too busy
to meet. And they're trying tofind a meeting next week, next
(08:39):
month, and they're not able toalign their diaries. So I think
setting your dates really wellin advance I think's important
and the other thing I thinkthat's really fundamental is you
need someone championing yourgroup. You know, in some areas
we've seen it done really wellby an experienced principal, in
other areas it's done reallywell with an external
(08:59):
facilitator running it. B I dothink that um, yeah, that
somebody needs to put their handup to set the dates to bring
people together, and having aperson championing that group
really, really does help. And Ithink the other thing is
ensuring that the work of yourgroup, the mahi that you're
getting to get around is focusedon the standards, is, you know,
(09:20):
may well be linked to an enquirybecause I think there's a number
of fallacies out there that byattending your local association,
principal association meeting,that's actually not often a
professional learning group youknow and, and just working out
the difference between you know,a, a PGC and an association
meeting.
Ben (09:40):
Yeah, um, I'll jump on the back of that. I think to ensure
long-term sustainability, theway we, w attacked ours is we
apply the same rules that weapply to what we expect from
teachers when they're planningahead.
Eleisha (09:53):
Hmm.
Ben (09:54):
So we have a number of different pro-formas which help
keep the checks and balances inplace, and it's not about tick
boxing, but one of the things isring-fencing our meetings so
weeks three and seven on aWednesday at the same time and
getting who's hosting in, andsome of our trickiest
conversations with each otherhave been around well you just
(10:16):
can't, you can't be missing, Youknow, multiple meetings in a row
and, and that that has been thething and asking questions like
why, because the integrity ofkeeping your own learning scared,
is, is about investing, andunless you are, then there's not
a commitment to growth, sotherefore what's happening in
your space, and like we've all,we've all been sick, we've all
(10:37):
had crises, we've all had thingsah on certain days, but yeah,
understanding the value thatyou're putting into the group is
also about you attending too. Ineed, I need you to be here so
that we can bounce this aroundbecause it's important to me.
And it's massive because, we'vealso have, I had off-shoots from
our group, and that initialcommitment isn't just, you know,
(10:59):
for the next six months, it'sfor a year, and we've had people
just haven't been able toparticipate and that's okay, you
know, that it's not working forthem at the moment. But it's the
value that you place on your ownlearning and what it does for
your kura, and for yourself, asa professional, is reflected in
how you commit to the actualcycle.
Eleisha (11:20):
That's some really, some really solid advice, um,
there. So, when principals ask,howdo I know if I'm doing this PGC
thing right? Rose-Anne, what'syour answer? What does
professional growth cyclepractice look like?
Rose-Anne (11:35):
Yeah, so what I always say is that if the cycle
feels meaningful, collaborative,focused on improving outcomes,
then yes, you're doing it right.When it's working really well,
you're engaging in learning thatmatters to you and to your
community. You're having reallyhonest and thoughtful
conversations with your board,with your colleagues, with your
(11:57):
professional learning network.You're using feedback not to
defend your practice but todeepen it, to enhance it, and to
grow and develop it, and you'resupported by the people around
you. So when people ask me thisquestion, I ask them to think
about, does your growth cyclehelp you to lead better,
Eleisha (12:18):
Hmm.
Rose-Anne (12:18):
think deeper, and connect more meaningfully with
others, and if they can coveroff those things, then yes,
they're absolutely on the righttrack.
Eleisha (12:27):
Yeah. Joh and Ben, you agree?
John (12:29):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it shouldn't feel like
an extra. It should be somethingthat, you know, if it does, yo
probably selected the wrong kindof goals or things to be working
on. And I think the other thingis, is it leading to change in
what you're doing?
Eleisha (12:42):
Hmm.
John (12:43):
you know, if you weren't part of a good network, you
might be, you know, pickingsomething to work on and, and
off you go, but it's thatchallenge and that critique and
other people's opinions and yourown personal reflection that
might make you, uh, pivot,change, and do some things
differently. You know, you wantsome interruptors in the process
to, uh, really get you to, tothink on, on your, on your
(13:04):
professional practice.
Eleisha (13:05):
Definitely. Rose-Anne, what support does the Teaching
Council provide if a principalis struggling or doesn't know
where to start with their PGC?
Rose-Anne (13:14):
For sure, if a principal's struggling or
doesn't know where to start, akey thing for them to recognise
is they're not alone,
Eleisha (13:21):
Hmm.
Rose-Anne (13:21):
and there is support to help them. We know that every
principal's journey is different,that they're in unique places in
unique contexts, and all of that.That's why the professional
growth cycle is designed to beflexible, not a
one-size-fits-all, and there'sno pressure to get it absolutely
erfectly correct right from dayone,like it's a growth and
(13:43):
development journey. So there'sresources on our website, we've
got guides and videos, andexamples to walk through parts
of the cycle which will berefreshed with the 2026
standards, and we've gotresources there for boards to
have a look at to help themunderstand the professional
growth cycle as well. And don'tforget your professional
(14:04):
learning networks, so yourcolleagues, you're likely to
have people who know yourpractice or have different
experiences that they've had,and they help feed into that
conversation to help younavigate what you're going
through, or to coach or mentoryou through that. Reach out to
them, that's what they're therefor. Also, I'd like to refer
(14:24):
people to the endorserguidelines, so there's any
principals out there who haven'tseen the endorser guidelines
then I suggest you have a lookat it. It guides you through
quite a lot to do withprofessional growth cycle and
with the endorsement ofpracticing certificates through
a whole range of differentscenarios. Yeah, I encourage you
to look at that. Also, if you'restill unsure, you can reach out
(14:47):
to us.
Eleisha (14:47):
Yeah .
Rose-Anne (14:48):
Give us a call or email us, whatever works best
for you and, um, it's likely tobe either myself or, um, a
colleague and we'll get incontact with you and have a
conversation with you and helpyou nut it out.
Eleisha (15:00):
That's awesome. And if you guys were mentoring a new
principal starting on theirfirst PGC, what advice would you
give them John?
John (15:10):
Well, I think the most important thing is obviously get
involved in a, in a, in a PGC,and I see some people that are
involved in more than onebecause they might be, um,
seeking different things fromdifferent groups, which is
really important. I think I ownthe fact that you are, um, in
that beginning phase of yourcareer, you know, that's
absolutely fine. But honestly,there's so much the wealth of
(15:35):
experience that people can get,um, from being part of those
networks and, and also, newprincipals, they bring a lot of
wealth of knowledge themselvesthat's unique to their own
context.So yeah, I mean, mysingle biggest thing is that
it's, is getting involved and,youknow, don't be shy to, um, ask
for that support from, fromthose networks that you're
(15:56):
involved in that can be really,really powerful.
Eleisha (15:59):
Rose-Anne
Rose-Anne (16:00):
I would say don't overthink it. We find that a lot
of, a lot of principals andleaders and teachers, they just
overthink the um, elements ofprofessional growth cycle. It's
not about getting everythingperfect. It's about engaging in
real meaningful learning anddevelopment of your practice.
And as John said, start byhaving a conversation. Talk with
your colleagues, talk with yourmentors, talk with your learning
(16:22):
network. Um, you don't have todo it alone.
Eleisha (16:24):
Yeah, that's good advice. Ben?
Ben (16:26):
I think the whole process is built around collegiality, so
understanding that you need toconnect with someone, because
eventually you're going to needto be endorsed.
Eleisha (16:35):
Hmm
Ben (16:36):
And you need to get there for finding a person or your
people. Also, big one is makingsure that you're presiding
member really understands thatwhat a professional growth cycle
is for a principal, and how the,that is there to meet the needs
of the principal. I think onceyou've got those two kind of
things sorted, it's about makingsure that you have a plan of
(16:59):
some sort, something small thathelps you figure out what it is
that you want to work on that'smeaningful and how you're going
to get support to meet that andwhat learning you need to do and
what kind of conversations youneed to have with people, and
whether that comes beforefinding a group or after, having
that there then gives you asense of direction
Eleisha (17:22):
Really great advice there. Is there anything that
anyone wants to add?
John (17:26):
One one thing, Eleisha, I was thinking about whilst we
were having the discussion, isaround my understanding is, is
where, um, particularly I amfrom, and Ben where you're based
is we're in quite urban settings,so I can jump in my car, I can
be at half a dozen schools infive minutes, but obviously, um,
a lot of our talk today has beenaround, u, physical meetings,
Eleisha (17:50):
Mmm.
John (17:50):
and,and actually getting together and look, that's a
really amazing thing to do. It's,it's, it's, it's the nicest way
I think of doing it, but, um,obviously a lot of our
colleagues are in rural, ruraland remote settings. Um, and I
do know, I mean, I did a bit ofa look at it. RASLA has done a
really amazing job and put ahuge piece of work together
(18:11):
around supporting principalsthat might face issues around
geographic isolation. So theyhave, um, you know, a number of
PLG's that they have operatingand they've built a significant
body of work around supportingthat sort of remote PLG, know,
PCG PCG groups and things likethat. So, um, that's a really
(18:32):
good resource for people to lookat if, you know, getting
together, you know, driving upthe road is a barrier for them.
Eleisha (18:39):
Hey, thank you all for that awesome advice, it's been
so lovely speaking with you. Seeyou later. John was just talking
then about rural principals andthat's who we're talking to in
the next episode, when we'llhear about making the transition
from an urban to a rural school.See you then.
Kia ora, and welcome back to The Principals, a
podcast series for current andaspiring tumuaki in Aotearoa New
Zealand. I'm Eleisha McNeill.Today we're continuing the
conversation about theprofessional growth cycle for
principals with my guests BenHutchings, tumuaki of Mountain
View School in Māngere,Auckland, John Channer,
(00:29):
principal at Fraser CrescentSchool in Upper Hutt in
Wellington, and Rose-Anne Londonfrom the Teaching Council of
Aotearoa New Zealand. And I'mgoing to crack right into it,
John, by asking you if you cantell me how some of your PGC
work has changed the way thatyou've handled a real leadership
challenge.
John (00:47):
So one of my professional goals this year it sort of
focuses around how I can better,um, support and develop our
middle leaders within our kura.So one of the things that's been
really useful for me is sharingthat with my trio. They've been
able to, I guess, um, ask melots of questions around my
thinking in that space. We'veshared resources both ways in
(01:10):
terms of, you know, some of thestuff that I've produced in that
area they've sort of critiquedand also, yeah, shared with me
what they've done. And thenanother thing that we do, we do
it every year is we do a, uh,principal school swap within our
wider group. And you basicallygo in as tumuaki into another
school for most of a day, have alook around, ask lots of
(01:33):
questions and we have a documentthat supports that in advance so
that you can really, uh, arriveat the school with some focus of
what you're looking at and knowalso that, uh, when someone is
in your own kura, they're uh,having a look at the stuff that
you want looked at. But whatthat enabled me to do is to
actually sit down in anotherschool and have those
(01:53):
discussions, uh, with with themiddle leaders within that
school and ask them what they'redoing around, you know, what
sort of support they get aroundtheir own professional growth
and what's in place within thatschool. So yeah, it can really
amplify, I guess, what you'relooking to achieve in your
professional goals by sharingthem with others, getti that
(02:14):
feedback, getting that critiqueand then it really doesn't, it's
such a wonderful and privilegedopportunity to go into someone
else's kura and, um, be able tokind of, yeah, explore and learn
and, yeah, really excitingopportunity.
Ben (02:28):
Can I just add to that, uh, I'm going to tag onto the end of
what John said. The, the singlebest PLD that we've had as group
has been, um, that exact thing.So for the last three years,
we've booked, we've called it astudy tour where we've gone and
planned two or three days tohave a look around
Eleisha (02:45):
Hmm.
Ben (02:46):
schools somewhere else, completely different. And going
in with a lens of knowing whateach other's goals are, and
principals welcome us into theirschools, has been yeah the
single biggest impact uh, on uskind of getting our own heads
out of the sand. We justfinished, I got back yesterday
actually from three days inChristchurch looking five
(03:06):
schools down there
Eleisha (03:06):
Oh, wow.
Ben (03:07):
and, um, amazing, so great. An people are really willing to
open their doors and, and youknow, we ask all sorts of tricky
questions. But it's, going,going in with that lens of we
know what each other's workingon and you'll see something and
you'll look at one of your, oneof your network members and go,
there you go, write that down,that's a good idea, you know,
(03:28):
and keeping each other kind offocused, um, yeah, it's a great
opportunity. So, tautoko thatJohn.
Eleisha (03:33):
That's amazing. What a great opportunity to be able to
go and see how other people aredoing things and see how you
might want change or think aboutwhat the way that you're doing
things. So, Rose-Anne, youtalked about the standards as
well, John, and Ben, what, whatdoes it mean to meet the
standards in everyday practicewhen you're dealing with all of
(03:54):
the other things that go in aschool in a day. John.
John (03:59):
I guess for me it's about understanding that they're a bit
of a foundation to yourleadership, you know, a little
bit of a part of your leadershipDNA and not a, uh, an add on to
what you should be doing. Andit's just being really mindful
of you know, there's dozens ofopportunities and things which
(04:19):
happen every day, you know, youmight get the really disgruntled
parent that comes bowling intoyour office and, you know, has a,
has a major issue and it's justsort of I think bringing that
back to things like, you know,the standards considering things
like, professional relationships.Uh, and if you sort of look at
(04:39):
the elaboration that's containedwithin, you know, something like
professional relationships itkind of guides you, I think a
little bit in the best wayforward with that. So yeah, it's
just seeing it as a part of whatyou're doing, not necessarily an
add on or an extra.
Eleisha (04:55):
Yeah. Not something Yeah. Ben, you agree?
Ben (04:57):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's something that you look at
initially and ensure that you'readdressing aspects of it. We did
an exercise right at the verybeginning where we sat down and
aligned standards with aspectsof our leadership. There's an
ERO leadership framework whichwe've used before, and the
Teachers' Council LeadershipFramework and kind of did a, did
(05:19):
a, did a, an alignment thingwhere we went through as a group
and thought if we would were topick a couple of areas that we
may need developing. But I thinkafter our first year, it became
less about looking at it andunderstanding that it's a, it's
a lens that we look at whenwe're doing our sign-off. And as
we sign each other off, sit downand just go right, have you, yes
(05:40):
you have, where do you think andthat's, that's been a little bit
part of our part of our sign-offprocess, but yeah, no, I agree
with John.
Eleisha (05:48):
And Rose-Anne, what are the most common mistakes you
principals making with theirprofessional growth cycle?
Rose-Anne (05:54):
OK, so one of the biggest mistakes is that we see
is principals still treating theprofessional growth cycle as a
compliance exercise.
Eleisha (06:02):
Yeah.
Rose-Anne (06:03):
So although John and Ben seem to be in quite a good
space with it, we still findthat some principals, including
those who are in actingprincipal roles, they feel
pressure to tick boxes orproduce or collate documentation
rather than seeing the processas one about growth. The PGC
(06:25):
isn't about paperwork. It'sabout making sure that that
learning is meaningful andrelates to you and your context.
Another one that's oftenoverlooked, because we're so
focused on goals and making suregoals are like you spoke earlier
about the goals lasting andbeing still of interest in six
months' time. Sometimes we findthat the incidental learning is
(06:47):
a bit overlooked and Ben spokeabout it earlier with the COVID
lockdowns and things like
Eleisha (06:54):
Hmm. Yeah.
Rose-Anne (06:54):
that. That kind of learning wasn't planned, but it
had a huge impact onprofessional practice and on
leadership and development ofleadership and things like that.
The PGC recognises that as validand valuable so it absolutely
counts. Another thing that thatwe do come across is principals
at the, when they're coming upand they're wanting to get
(07:17):
endorsed, that they haven't beenmindful of making sure that the
people in their professionallearning network are actually
eligible to endorse them.
Eleisha (07:25):
Right.
Rose-Anne (07:26):
So they need to make sure that they're currently
working as a principal, thatthey hold that Tūrutu full
category one practicingcertificate, and endorsements
can't be reciprocal. So Johnspoke earlier about having at
least three in the group and ifyou've got at least three in the
group that have that fullcategory one practicing
(07:48):
certificate, you know thateveryone's going to be able to
be endorsed in that space.
Eleisha (07:52):
Hmm. John, did you..
John (07:53):
In terms of some of the simple mistakes that I've seen
and I was really fortunate to beawarded the David Stewart
Memorial scholarship withanother colleague for last year
and we did quite a bit of studyaround what was happening both
with effective and not soeffective professional learning
groups, but it sounds reallybasic, but one of them is around
(08:15):
setting your dates in advance.
Eleisha (08:16):
Yeah . Hmm.
John (08:17):
Like we, we,we set ours all the year before, and keeping
them as consistent and we lookfor clashes with things like
conferences and other bits thatmight impact that, but, um, I've
met with a number of, ofprincipals and their group is
struggling to get off the groundbecause they simply are too busy
to meet. And they're trying tofind a meeting next week, next
(08:39):
month, and they're not able toalign their diaries. So I think
setting your dates really wellin advance I think's important
and the other thing I thinkthat's really fundamental is you
need someone championing yourgroup. You know, in some areas
we've seen it done really wellby an experienced principal, in
other areas it's done reallywell with an external
(08:59):
facilitator running it. B I dothink that um, yeah, that
somebody needs to put their handup to set the dates to bring
people together, and having aperson championing that group
really, really does help. And Ithink the other thing is
ensuring that the work of yourgroup, the mahi that you're
getting to get around is focusedon the standards, is, you know,
(09:20):
may well be linked to an enquirybecause I think there's a number
of fallacies out there that byattending your local association,
principal association meeting,that's actually not often a
professional learning group youknow and, and just working out
the difference between you know,a, a PGC and an association
meeting.
Ben (09:40):
Yeah, um, I'll jump on the back of that. I think to ensure
long-term sustainability, theway we, w attacked ours is we
apply the same rules that weapply to what we expect from
teachers when they're planningahead.
Eleisha (09:53):
Hmm.
Ben (09:54):
So we have a number of different pro-formas which help
keep the checks and balances inplace, and it's not about tick
boxing, but one of the things isring-fencing our meetings so
weeks three and seven on aWednesday at the same time and
getting who's hosting in, andsome of our trickiest
conversations with each otherhave been around well you just
(10:16):
can't, you can't be missing, Youknow, multiple meetings in a row
and, and that that has been thething and asking questions like
why, because the integrity ofkeeping your own learning scared,
is, is about investing, andunless you are, then there's not
a commitment to growth, sotherefore what's happening in
your space, and like we've all,we've all been sick, we've all
(10:37):
had crises, we've all had thingsah on certain days, but yeah,
understanding the value thatyou're putting into the group is
also about you attending too. Ineed, I need you to be here so
that we can bounce this aroundbecause it's important to me.
And it's massive because, we'vealso have, I had off-shoots from
our group, and that initialcommitment isn't just, you know,
(10:59):
for the next six months, it'sfor a year, and we've had people
just haven't been able toparticipate and that's okay, you
know, that it's not working forthem at the moment. But it's the
value that you place on your ownlearning and what it does for
your kura, and for yourself, asa professional, is reflected in
how you commit to the actualcycle.
Eleisha (11:20):
That's some really, some really solid advice, um,
there. So, when principals ask,howdo I know if I'm doing this PGC
thing right? Rose-Anne, what'syour answer? What does
professional growth cyclepractice look like?
Rose-Anne (11:35):
Yeah, so what I always say is that if the cycle
feels meaningful, collaborative,focused on improving outcomes,
then yes, you're doing it right.When it's working really well,
you're engaging in learning thatmatters to you and to your
community. You're having reallyhonest and thoughtful
conversations with your board,with your colleagues, with your
(11:57):
professional learning network.You're using feedback not to
defend your practice but todeepen it, to enhance it, and to
grow and develop it, and you'resupported by the people around
you. So when people ask me thisquestion, I ask them to think
about, does your growth cyclehelp you to lead better,
Eleisha (12:18):
Hmm.
Rose-Anne (12:18):
think deeper, and connect more meaningfully with
others, and if they can coveroff those things, then yes,
they're absolutely on the righttrack.
Eleisha (12:27):
Yeah. Joh and Ben, you agree?
John (12:29):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it shouldn't feel like
an extra. It should be somethingthat, you know, if it does, yo
probably selected the wrong kindof goals or things to be working
on. And I think the other thingis, is it leading to change in
what you're doing?
Eleisha (12:42):
Hmm.
John (12:43):
you know, if you weren't part of a good network, you
might be, you know, pickingsomething to work on and, and
off you go, but it's thatchallenge and that critique and
other people's opinions and yourown personal reflection that
might make you, uh, pivot,change, and do some things
differently. You know, you wantsome interruptors in the process
to, uh, really get you to, tothink on, on your, on your
(13:04):
professional practice.
Eleisha (13:05):
Definitely. Rose-Anne, what support does the Teaching
Council provide if a principalis struggling or doesn't know
where to start with their PGC?
Rose-Anne (13:14):
For sure, if a principal's struggling or
doesn't know where to start, akey thing for them to recognise
is they're not alone,
Eleisha (13:21):
Hmm.
Rose-Anne (13:21):
and there is support to help them. We know that every
principal's journey is different,that they're in unique places in
unique contexts, and all of that.That's why the professional
growth cycle is designed to beflexible, not a
one-size-fits-all, and there'sno pressure to get it absolutely
erfectly correct right from dayone,like it's a growth and
(13:43):
development journey. So there'sresources on our website, we've
got guides and videos, andexamples to walk through parts
of the cycle which will berefreshed with the 2026
standards, and we've gotresources there for boards to
have a look at to help themunderstand the professional
growth cycle as well. And don'tforget your professional
(14:04):
learning networks, so yourcolleagues, you're likely to
have people who know yourpractice or have different
experiences that they've had,and they help feed into that
conversation to help younavigate what you're going
through, or to coach or mentoryou through that. Reach out to
them, that's what they're therefor. Also, I'd like to refer
(14:24):
people to the endorserguidelines, so there's any
principals out there who haven'tseen the endorser guidelines
then I suggest you have a lookat it. It guides you through
quite a lot to do withprofessional growth cycle and
with the endorsement ofpracticing certificates through
a whole range of differentscenarios. Yeah, I encourage you
to look at that. Also, if you'restill unsure, you can reach out
(14:47):
to us.
Eleisha (14:47):
Yeah .
Rose-Anne (14:48):
Give us a call or email us, whatever works best
for you and, um, it's likely tobe either myself or, um, a
colleague and we'll get incontact with you and have a
conversation with you and helpyou nut it out.
Eleisha (15:00):
That's awesome. And if you guys were mentoring a new
principal starting on theirfirst PGC, what advice would you
give them John?
John (15:10):
Well, I think the most important thing is obviously get
involved in a, in a, in a PGC,and I see some people that are
involved in more than onebecause they might be, um,
seeking different things fromdifferent groups, which is
really important. I think I ownthe fact that you are, um, in
that beginning phase of yourcareer, you know, that's
absolutely fine. But honestly,there's so much the wealth of
(15:35):
experience that people can get,um, from being part of those
networks and, and also, newprincipals, they bring a lot of
wealth of knowledge themselvesthat's unique to their own
context.So yeah, I mean, mysingle biggest thing is that
it's, is getting involved and,youknow, don't be shy to, um, ask
for that support from, fromthose networks that you're
(15:56):
involved in that can be really,really powerful.
Eleisha (15:59):
Rose-Anne
Rose-Anne (16:00):
I would say don't overthink it. We find that a lot
of, a lot of principals andleaders and teachers, they just
overthink the um, elements ofprofessional growth cycle. It's
not about getting everythingperfect. It's about engaging in
real meaningful learning anddevelopment of your practice.
And as John said, start byhaving a conversation. Talk with
your colleagues, talk with yourmentors, talk with your learning
(16:22):
network. Um, you don't have todo it alone.
Eleisha (16:24):
Yeah, that's good advice. Ben?
Ben (16:26):
I think the whole process is built around collegiality, so
understanding that you need toconnect with someone, because
eventually you're going to needto be endorsed.
Eleisha (16:35):
Hmm
Ben (16:36):
And you need to get there for finding a person or your
people. Also, big one is makingsure that you're presiding
member really understands thatwhat a professional growth cycle
is for a principal, and how the,that is there to meet the needs
of the principal. I think onceyou've got those two kind of
things sorted, it's about makingsure that you have a plan of
(16:59):
some sort, something small thathelps you figure out what it is
that you want to work on that'smeaningful and how you're going
to get support to meet that andwhat learning you need to do and
what kind of conversations youneed to have with people, and
whether that comes beforefinding a group or after, having
that there then gives you asense of direction
Eleisha (17:22):
Really great advice there. Is there anything that
anyone wants to add?
John (17:26):
One one thing, Eleisha, I was thinking about whilst we
were having the discussion, isaround my understanding is, is
where, um, particularly I amfrom, and Ben where you're based
is we're in quite urban settings,so I can jump in my car, I can
be at half a dozen schools infive minutes, but obviously, um,
a lot of our talk today has beenaround, u, physical meetings,
Eleisha (17:50):
Mmm.
John (17:50):
and,and actually getting together and look, that's a
really amazing thing to do. It's,it's, it's, it's the nicest way
I think of doing it, but, um,obviously a lot of our
colleagues are in rural, ruraland remote settings. Um, and I
do know, I mean, I did a bit ofa look at it. RASLA has done a
really amazing job and put ahuge piece of work together
(18:11):
around supporting principalsthat might face issues around
geographic isolation. So theyhave, um, you know, a number of
PLG's that they have operatingand they've built a significant
body of work around supportingthat sort of remote PLG, know,
PCG PCG groups and things likethat. So, um, that's a really
(18:32):
good resource for people to lookat if, you know, getting
together, you know, driving upthe road is a barrier for them.
Eleisha (18:39):
Hey, thank you all for that awesome advice, it's been
so lovely speaking with you. Seeyou later. John was just talking
then about rural principals andthat's who we're talking to in
the next episode, when we'llhear about making the transition
from an urban to a rural school.See you then.
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