October 20, 2025 • 30 mins
Ever thought about swapping city school leadership for rural life?
From misconceptions, like assuming rural schools would be "easier", to learning unexpected skills like animal husbandry and septic tank management, our guests talk about the unique rewards of leading schools where community connections run generations deep.
Hosted by Eleisha McNeill.
Today’s guests are:
- Andrew King, principal of Oropi School and president of the NZ Rural Schools Leadership Association
- Alistair Schaw, principal at Aokautere School near Palmerston North
- Kylie Piper, tumuaki of Arapohue School in Northland
This podcast was produced for the Ministry of Education.
You can learn more by accessing the e-learning modules for principals on the Education LMS: https://training.education.govt.nz
Additional information:
New Zealand Rural Schools Leadership Association https://www.nzrasla.ac.nz
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eleisha (00:08):
Kia ora, and welcome to The Principals, a podcast series
for aspiring and current tumuakiin Aotearoa New Zealand. I'm
Eleisha McNeill. Today we'reexploring what it really means
to make the transition fromurban to rural principalship
beyond the romantic notions ofsmaller classes and closer
communities. I'll let my guestsintroduce themselves.
Andrew (00:30):
Kia ora koutou, ko Andrew King tōku ingoa, tumuaki
o Oropi School in Tauranga Moana,and I'm the president of the New
Zealand Rural Schools LeadershipAssociation.
Eleisha (00:41):
Fantastic, Kylie.
Kylie (00:42):
Ah, tēnā kātou katoa, he uri tēnei o Te Maunga
Taranaki, ko e te tumuaki o TeKura o Ara Pōhue, um, ko Kylie
Piper tōku ingoa. So I am KyliePiper, I am Principal at Ara
Pōhue School up in Te TaiTokerau, and I have been at my
kura, this is my seventh year atmy kura, it's a U1 school,
currently with 35 students.
Eleisha (01:04):
Thank you. Allister.
Alistair (01:06):
Ah, kia ora tatou, uh, ko Alistair Schaw tōku ingoa,
ko tumuaki o Te Kura o Aokauterein the mighty Manawatu, um, and
this is a U4 school about 150kids.
Eleisha (01:17):
Thank you. yeah, yeah. Uhm, I wanted to start by asking
each of you how you became atumuaki in a rural school. Uhm,
maybe start with you, Alistair.
Alistair (01:27):
So I grew farming near, uh, Ongaonga, a little village
in central Hawke's Bay, went toWaipukurau, so the grand
metropolis.
Eleisha (01:36):
Haha.
Alistair (01:36):
So rural has always been in my, in my blood. Went
and trained in Palmerston NorthTeachers College as it was back
then, and, took two jobs aturban schools, so in Woodville
and, um, at Winchester School inPalmerston North, and, then I
gained my first role as a U1principal in Whangaehu, near
Wanganui. And, it was partlycareer, it was partly, um, I
(02:00):
wanted to be, I the boss of myown destiny, and could do things,
I'd learned some stuff aboutteaching and learning, and I
wanted, not to be told I wantedto go off and, do. I was quite
young to be a principal, didn'tknow very much, wet behind the
ears, but I had a very forgivingcommunity and it was just the
best time. it's wonderful, but Iwas encouraged by some
principals too that I workedwith to, to, um, to go forward.
Eleisha (02:22):
Fantastic. What about you, Kylie?
Kylie (02:25):
So I was living and working in Christchurch, where I
had my first principalship, Iwas principal down there at
Shirley Primary, which was a U5urban school, and spent 2 and a
years in that role. At the timewe were working, it was
post-quake Christchurch. We wereworking through the Christchurch
renewal, I managing a rebuild ofmy school. It was massive growth
(02:47):
because two of our local schoolswere closed, I enrolled 50
children in my first two weeksof the job. And I had a very
young family at the time. All ofthat it proved to me, actually
it was quite unsustainable formy family or for myself to
continue, so, I stepped awayfrom that role and thought, how
can I do things differently if Iwant to make this work for
myself and my family? So, myhusband and I decided that we
(03:10):
would go on an adventure let'stry Northland because it's
supposed to be sunny up here. SoI applied for a rural
principal's job here at Arapohueand I was successful in that
position. Interestingly enough,when I won that one of my staff
from my last school said, 'Oh mygosh, Kylie, I remember you
always talked about just wantingto be p principal of a small
rural school'. So, took me along way around getting but here
(03:32):
I am now.
Eleisha (03:33):
Fantastic. What about you, Andrew?
Andrew (03:36):
Yeah, so I'm an urbanite through and still am an urbanite
in terms of where I reside andlive and so forth but I had
started teaching in largeprimary schools. And then I was
gunning to get intoprincipalshjp, I just wanted
that experience of leading aschool with its curriculum and
so forth. I started at LakeRerewhakaaitu School, which is
(03:58):
out by the base of MountTarawera, which is a lovely U2
quite isolated rural school of80 students. And I spent two and
a half years there with my veryyoung family at the time and my
wife, and then we moved back toTauranga, where I started at
Oropi, which had 100 students atthe time, and is now five, 350?
Eleisha (04:21):
So initially it sounds like you were all drawn a little
bit by lifestyle choices andthings like that. What were your
biggest assumptions about ruralschool leadership that turned
out to be completely wrong?
Andrew (04:35):
I had been a team leader of a very large team, the year
five and six team at a schoolcalled Tahatai Coast School in
Papamoa. And I thought, well,surely, going to be a principal
in a rural school of 80 kids,well, that's kind of the same,
isn't it? And I was proven very,very wrong because the buck
stops with you as the principal.And I'd forgotten that being a
(04:57):
principal means you'reoverseeing everything about a
school irrespective of its size.And so I learnt that just
because there were less kids inthe school, it did not make a
similar job.
Eleisha (05:11):
Kylie?
Kylie (05:12):
I don't know if this is an assumption so much, but I had
been told my whole career, becareful, watch out those rural
schools are dangerous inparticular the boards. The
boards think they own the schooland if they don't like you,
they'll crucify you. And evenonce I accepted the job, there
were so many people that warnedme about be careful of the board,
be careful of the board, theythink they own the school. It
(05:33):
was the common mantra I guess,
Eleisha (05:35):
Hmm.
Kylie (05:36):
but what I found coming to a rural school is to a
certain extent they do own theschool. They own it far more
than I do because they have gotgenerations of investment into
this school and this community.And this fly-by-nighter young
person,
Eleisha (05:50):
Ha,
Kylie (05:50):
principal that pops in and they're going to change it
all to show how clever they are.Yeah, I think it's about that
approach, so I know that veryearly on in my time here, I
ended up doing an enrolment witha grandfather who was enrolling
his grandson and thank goodnesssomebody had told me before he
came in that he used to be theboard chair for like 15 years,
and his wife was on the PTA, hehad been to the school, his
(06:13):
children had been to the school.That when he came in, I sat in
my office I said okay, hi Dave,tell me about your school
instead of me presuming. And sothat to me was the fundamental
thing that that community thosegenerations that have been here
will be here long after me. Andso honoring the work that
they've done and making sure weadd to what they've done rather
than try and create my ownlittle kingdom.
Eleisha (06:33):
ha. Yeah, good advice. Allister.
Alistair (06:36):
Yeah, I tautoko that, um, it is very, very true, that
longevity and history thatpeople have is so important, you
think you're gonna, gonna comein and change the world and do
things overnight, you do so atyour peril, you just be very
careful. I think I had animpression that rural school
would be easier, slower,healthier, I could be a master
of my own teaching destiny andto degree that is true. But
(06:59):
actually in principalshipthere's a lot of guidelines,
there's a lot that you do. WhatAndrew said before, it is
absolutely true. Ruralprinciples have to do everything
an urban principal does, it'sjust the numbers are smaller
Eleisha (07:11):
Hmm,
Alistair (07:12):
and we're probably a little bit more vulnerable to
our communities, I would say.
Eleisha (07:17):
absolutely. Andrew, did you want to add anything?
Andrew (07:20):
I love rural schools and I love what they can offer in
terms of a really localisedcontext for your curriculum. But
I said right at the beginning,I'm an urbanite and what I found
incredibly challenging wasliving in an isolated community
30 minutes out of town,
Eleisha (07:36):
Hmm,
Andrew (07:36):
and I hadn't really prepared myself for that,
particularly with young children.
Eleisha (07:41):
yeah. That would be hard with young kids especially,
you know, if you're new to acommunity, you don't know people
when you first move there. Howdid you go about building those
connections?
Andrew (07:49):
That was very hard as well because they're very well
established connections in arural community that is strong,
and there's a perception thatcomes with being a principal in
those types of communities. Well,he's not going to be around for
very long,so we'll just keepour distance. Yeah, and so that
can affect how you go abouttrying to create relationships
(08:12):
and connections in the community.
Eleisha (08:13):
Hmm, what about you, Kylie? Did you find that too
when you first moved into thecommunity?
Kylie (08:18):
Absolutely. It was difficult and difficult for my
children to get, just to findtheir niche and get them
involved in things. I thinksomething that I wanted to
comment on that Andrew just sortof mentioned is around that
perception that you're not goingto stick around for long. I
think that was something elsethat I was an epiphany for me
(08:39):
coming into rural schools as Ididn't, I guess because of the
trajectory of where my careerhad taken me, I didn't realise
that you were supposed to use asmall rural school as a stepping
stone to go and be great in areal big school. So what I've
noticed at a lot of our ruralschools get is people just
coming in for their two yearsjust to cut their teeth, to
prove themselves and show thatthey can, and then rush off to
(09:00):
the bigger and brighter things.And so the perception of the
community too was you're notgoing to stick around for long.
I had kids at the school and I'dsay to them, how many teachers I
can't even remember all theirnames, I've had so many they
just they don't stay here withus for long. So that sign of
being able to, trying to showyour community that I'm here and
I'm invested, and my family,we're here to be a part. So for
(09:21):
me it was, you know, for mychildren to get established it
was finding groups getting theminvolved in dance or swimming
and sport. Whatever they weredoing my son and having their
pet lambs doing their calves,getting in with the farmers and
spending time on the farms andthat kind of thing just to make
them an established part, butgetting that message across that
we're for the long term.
Eleisha (09:39):
Hmm
Kylie (09:39):
Yeah, that was important for us.
Eleisha (09:41):
Alistair, did you find... How did you find making
connections in the community?Did they assume that you weren't
going to be there long?
Alistair (09:47):
Yeah, look, I think that's a real thing that the
communities do understand thatit's a career move in many cases,
especially the smaller theschool. So I've been at a U1, U2
and then all my other schoolsare being used U4s, which is
pretty cool, I think living inthe community has so many
benefits, you know, and in thesmaller schools we lived in the
(10:10):
school house, we had the benefitof that. I think before people
apply for a rural principal job,they need to think really
carefully, rural is not the sameas urban. There is a sense of
isolation, depending on whereyou are, the housing
availability, th socialisingwith the community, who are your
friends? How far away is yoursupport, especially if you've
got a small family. But I wouldalso say it is the most
(10:32):
rewarding teaching I have everdone. The closeness with the
community, all those things thatcan be a point of tension for
some, are also a hugeopportunity for your teaching
and learning, for yourleadership, for motivating a
community, for being involved indoing something of real worth
Eleisha (10:50):
That's awesome. I've talked to you about this before,
Andrew. But what are some of themost unexpected, non-educational
skills that you've had to learn?A few people have mentioned kind
of septic tanks and things likethat before. Alistair, what have
you learned that you neverthought you'd need to learn in a
school leadership role?
Alistair (11:09):
Building skills, plumbing skills, definitely not
always a septic, I try to steerright clear of that, but. It's
amazing how much you have tolean on yourself when you are
miles away from somewhere andit's going to cost you hundreds
of dollars to get a plumber outor an electrician, so minor
stuff. So I've learnt heaps ofpractical skills.
Eleisha (11:29):
That's awesome. Kylie.
Kylie (11:31):
At my interview here when I came for to my interview, my
question to the board was, youknow, what is important for me
to continue, what's the thingsthat you want, think that I need
to change, what do you think Ineed to maintain. And the only
thing that board wanted me to dowas make sure calf club runs.
And my answer at the time, as atrue city girl, was, I don't
(11:51):
know what it is, but I can learnand I can do it. And I mean, I
didn't even know animalhusbandry was a thing. Now, I do
know that, now I know thatleading and rearing and calling
are all very special categories.And I've, my students have
reared calves on site that I'veoverseen. I've had the sick
lambs, dying lambs brought to mein my office after they've just
(12:12):
been birthed and orphaned in andnurse them while I'm trying to
do my board report and things,And yeah, that's been terrific,
Lenny, 'cause I always had thesedreams of being a real rural
girl. But this job has, yeah,definitely taught me that, well
and truely.
Eleisha (12:27):
[laughs] Andrew.
Andrew (12:29):
I learnt a lot about grass
Eleisha (12:32):
[laughs]
Andrew (12:33):
the quality of grass in terms of for grazing for cattle
and beef, and I also learnt alot the standard effluent, in
water treatment systems. But Ithink the complexity of
strategic planning and workingwith all the groups that are
invested in the school communitythat are often quite intertwined,
(12:56):
so you have the parent teacherassociation, the Board of
trustees, the play group, thehall committee, the womens'
group, and various farminggroups, and you have to be
connected to all of them, andoften a lot of them are in some
of the other groups. might ateacher aid in your school,
doing the cleaning in yourschool and on the board and on
(13:17):
the PTA.
Eleisha (13:18):
Hmm,
Andrew (13:18):
And it's just really complex when you're strategic
planning in your school whenpeople have their own perception
of what was a priority for them.
Eleisha (13:28):
yeah.
Andrew (13:29):
And they want you to make sure that you did what they
wanted as a teacher, as a boardperson, as someone on the PTA.
Alistair (13:38):
If I could add something in there, and then I
think there's, um, there's acertain pace that rural schools
operate at. Coming from an urbanenvironment, you know, you have
your meetings after school andthey're, they start at this time,
they end at that time and you,you go and you move on to the
next thing you're at working atpace, because you have to,
there's stuff to do and it's abit, it's a bigger um beast. And
(13:58):
you go to a rural school andyou've got to soon realise that
people need time to talk, theyneed, this is their connection
time, they don't see each othervery often. So at the end of a
board meeting they would want totalk about, you know, how
calving and lambing was goingand for a while I sat there and
thought, well, how can Icontribute anything here? All I
had was a pet lamb in my backpaddock and I could call them on
(14:20):
about my productivity rate, was100% this year, how's yours
going? But just that chance forpeople to talk and connect and
you've, you've got to let ithappen. Yeah, that, that was
really important.
Eleisha (14:32):
So, obviously you had to adapt your leadership styles
when you moved from urbanschools to rural schools. Or am
I making an assumption? Did youhave to adapt your leadership
styles and if so, how? Kylie.
Kylie (14:45):
I think it's probably what Alistair was mentioning
before. I think that as a leader,or as a person, I've always been
relational, and that's beenfoundational to my approach to
leadership. But leading in arural school has enabled or
empowered me to become even morepeople focused, as Alistair said,
because we need to be, becauseour people are right there and
(15:07):
have that real need to connectand to socialise, to be heard,
to be seen. But I don't need tobe as systems focused.
Eleisha (15:15):
Hmm.
Kylie (15:16):
So in my previous school, when I was dealing with 70 new
entrants coming in a year, I hadto be so focused on how the
transition to school looked andhow many visits you allowed, and
what times they were in and whatday of that week they happened.
And I brought that same thing tomy school, and when I had the
first new entrant I tried tomanage them into that little box.
Took me a wee while till Irealised it doesn't matter, it's
(15:37):
two new entrants a year, and wecan actually just work around
them, and if they're busy on thefarm, or if they've got
preschool or mum's got a towntrip... And I love that I can
become, because I'm very systemsfocused, but I love that I can
be so human focused, andpersonalise every approach to
the child or the family that iscoming in, and that's an
absolute blessing of working ina small context.
Eleisha (15:59):
Allister, you're nodding.
Alistair (16:01):
Oh, I absolutely agree with what Kylie's saying, that
connection you have with yourparents and how your operations
have to fit around. I think theconnections are incredibly
important and recognising thatis crucial to a principal's role.
So the interconnectedness ofpeople in the community, the way
(16:22):
that you can bring the communityinto your school and that they
are welcome at these events andgetting the news out there, they
really want to be a part of it,they are invested. And I think,
you know, in an urban setting,principals can hide, there's
plenty of meetings to go to, ifyou go into a rural setting and
think you're going to be in theoffice, or you don't go to
sports or you Lord, Lord forbidyou don't go to Ag day and
(16:44):
present something, you've got tobe visible, you've got to be
there, they expect you to bethere, if you, if you, before
you become a principal, if youthink I'm an introvert, I'm not
that great with people, or Idon't want to be personally
connected then I think don't doit, you'll find it really hard.
Eleisha (17:00):
What about you, Andrew, did you have to adapt your
leadership style?
Andrew (17:04):
Yes, but my first thought when you asked that
question is you don't need tochange who you are as a person
and you don't need to change whoyou are as a leader,
Eleisha (17:13):
Hmm.
Andrew (17:13):
but there are certain things that you have to focus on
more as a leader in a small anda rural school. And I think one
of the biggest learnings for mewas making sure I was seen, at
least seen to be and genuinelylistening. And listening to all
the, what all the stakeholdersof the community were saying and
asking and talking about andunderstanding the vibe of the
(17:36):
community and how to keep themtogether. It's not about trying
to keep everybody happy, butjust being really in tune with
what is being talked about orperceptions that are out there
and how you might navigate that.
Eleisha (17:49):
Yeah. So, there's lots of opportunities, lifestyle
opportunities that come withliving in a rural community. And
how has that impacted on youpersonally, as well as in your
effectiveness as an educationalleader? Kylie.
Kylie (18:06):
That's a really interesting one, um because like
Andrew's saying, these are partof our skills, these are who we
are as leaders, but
Eleisha (18:13):
Hmm.
Kylie (18:13):
this environment has helped me become even more
authentic. I think when you talkabout keeping it real, because
there's nowhere to hide. So Ithink that affects me personally,
and my effectiveness as a person,and as a leader, because it
makes me a more authentic visionof myself, not the Christchurch
Kylie was overly different, butyeah, it's enhanced
Eleisha (18:31):
[laughs]
Kylie (18:32):
I just think, if you think about personal gain, just
living in such a beautifulenvironment, and I haven't gone
into a small country schoolwhere I haven't seen a beautiful
environment or a beautifuloutlook, and I've developed this
theory that there must be, itmust be some form of mindfulness
when you can look and nothinginterrupts your view to the
(18:55):
horizon, except nature, there'sonly nature there, and I think
that, and I was sharing thatwith a beginning principal just
a couple of weeks ago, and shesaid there's actually been
research done on that, if you'vecome from the city to that
environment, the health benefits,everything, are never ending,
and they continue to grow,whereas if you've grown up in it
then it does wear off, orsomething, so I think so for my
well-being, this environment'sgreat, let alone, you know,
(19:16):
having the outdoors at yourfingertips is, yeah, lots of
outdoor opportunities, but youknow, the family are great too
Andrew (19:23):
I agree. The context of a rural school is really good
for your wellbeing and that'swhat I've noticed and even
though I talked about before howI'm an urbanite at heart, the
outdoors are really important tome and the ability to connect
with the environment and be whoyou are in a rural school
environment is a lot easier aswell.
Alistair (19:43):
I agree with all of that, I think there is a healthy
aspect, the space, you can walkaround with the kids and you
know, climb trees, there'ssomething really healthy. For my
family, having my young familyat the time in a rural school
and in a rural community wasreally, really, it was an
amazing blessing. But I think interms of my teaching and
learning, the opportunities forme as a teacher, making learning
(20:08):
real to kids was so much moreadvantageous in a rural area,
and parents are willing to comeand share their skills. EOTC
camps, you know, that'sencouraged, they want that stuff
to happen, they want their kidsto climb trees, they want them
to build forts and stuff likethat. And that is amazing, it is
richer, and um definitelyhealthier I think.
Eleisha (20:30):
Uh, a hundred percent. And you mentioned there, you
know, parents are willing tokind of come in and help and
share their knowledge. Say ifyour plumbing breaks in the
weekend, you put out a call, youcan't get a plumber, does the
community come and kick in foryou.
Alistair (20:43):
It definitely does, look at talk about plumbing or
drainage, talk about drainage,man, they'll be in there.
Working bees, because you'reisolated and you need stuff done,
if you want something builtpeople have got the skills,
they've got the equipment,they'll be there because they
want the best for their kidsBuilders will just turn up. If
you've got a leak in the roof,look someone with a tarpaulin
will be there waiting for thebuilder proper to turn up. So
(21:07):
yeah, i huge advantages in thatway.
Eleisha (21:11):
Kylie, you are nodding furiously.
Kylie (21:13):
Yeah, it's that, it's the practical aspect of a farming
community, that, you know,people that are willing to pitch
in and get their boots dirty, ortheir hands muddy, or whatever,
but also, like they've also gotthe machinery and the stuff that
turns up, and that's the thingthat blows my mind, like these
people yeah they come inbucketloads but they come with
(21:35):
cool things and sometimes it'sbecause of phone call because
the water's gone and there's not,no taps are running and it's
ringing a grandfather who was onthe board in the 80s and he was
the only one that could manageit to remember where and how all
the tanks were hooked up, didn'tknow where to dig and he did
that. Another one that I thoughtof as Alistair was talking was
during Cyclone Gabby and this isup at the school house where we
(21:56):
had a caravan that apparentlyleaked and when it is a cyclone
coming through the leaking ispretty horrific. So me and my
husband were out there with thisten by eight tarpaulan trying to
wrap it around thing. It washorrific and I remember holding
onto the side of the caravan andtrying to hold this thing down
and then turned round seeing andthere was one of my parents on
the other side he said it lookedlike you needed a hand and he
was just driving past and he wasdriving because he was just
going around checking on all thefarms and seeing if everyone was
(22:18):
okay so there he was holdingdown the fort, he waited,we
tied it down and he justdisappeared again and he was
like oh bye thanks. That kind ofstuff I love.
Eleisha (22:27):
That's amazing, eh? T all come So aside from, you know,
having an amazing communityaround you, what do you think
are the unique advantages ofrural principalship? You've all
gone from urban schools to ruralschools. Can you see it both
ways? You know, in terms of, youknow, it's a great move to go
from urban to rural also a greatmove to start is a principle in
(22:49):
a rural school. What do youthink?
Andrew (22:52):
And most definitely, and it's a bit sad these days
because there a perception outthere that you're better off be
a principal in an urban school,but actually, starting
principalship in a rural schoolmeans that you learn about every
aspect of the school operation.that's gold. It's as a teacher,
if you can say that you'vetaught every year level in the
(23:13):
primary school, that sets youfor great success as curriculum
leader. Likewise in a ruralschool, you've got teach and
manage a school in every domainbecause you don't have a whole
lot of people to help you. Sothat set you up for success to
get the big jobs in the bigschools.
Eleisha (23:28):
You agree, Kylie?
Kylie (23:29):
I don't disagree with anything Andrew said then
absolutely and that thing ofknowing the job um hard for me
to comment on because I did itthe other way around, and to me
it was the most successful forme because that's my journey.
What I had the joy and thebeauty of as a beginning
principal is I had an amazingteam around me. I had my own PA,
(23:53):
I had my finance officer, I hadmy two walking deputy principals,
I had my caretaker and I had mycleaning company and I had my
team leaders and I just sat inmy office and I facilitated them
all and that was wonderful toteach me the role of the
principal. I did miss being onthe ground, cos I actually liked
it when I was the DP and I usedto solve and I used to unblock
the photocopier for people anddo all the things and be you
(24:16):
know all things to all people, Isuddenly sat in my office and
had everyone doing that, I justhad to you know, conduct which
was helpful for me howevermoving then to a rural setting
was absolutely incrediblebecause then I knew all of the
skills and things that where Isee so many of my peers my
beginning principals getting sooverwhelmed with all of the
stuff they've got to do, I hadthe fortunate privilege of
(24:38):
knowing all of the stuff andthen actually coming in and
being able to do it all myselfwhich yeah that has been
Eleisha (24:43):
[laughs]
Kylie (24:43):
an amazing way around for I do think yeah the ability to
know all aspects of the rolelike Andrew says is massive, I
do wish that our principals,that that was acknowledged of
that role that our small solecharge schools were allowed to
actually be principals and leadrather than having to be
full-time teachers with a bit ofprincipaling on the side, we
(25:03):
might have some more longevityin the role um and some more
success with
Eleisha (25:08):
What about you, Alistair?
Alistair (25:09):
It was interesting hearing Kylie's story because it
is, you know, fairly unique, Iguess, and as you were talking
Kylie, I was thinking of theimage of a conductor.
Eleisha (25:19):
[laughs]
Alistair (25:19):
And you had all that support people around you
helping with the finances andthe cleaning and whatever, and
the hiring, I guess, you know,HR stuff. You're the conductor
getting them all going and whata privileged position that was
because you saw principalship ina different way and you're
absolutely right that when youbegin in a rural school, you are
doing everything you're learningeverything so you're playing all
(25:42):
the instruments you don't evenknow how to play them, let alone
who's the conductor. So it's ahuge job. It's a huge job. I
think however that you do learnon the job, pretty strong in
that way and you,you can't maketoo much of a stuff up. There's
fewer pupils, you know, thereare fewer staff that you're
working with, so if you make amistake and you own it, yeah,
(26:02):
let's all move on in, and go. So,that ability to fail also makes
you stronger, I think you learnfrom it all.
Eleisha (26:09):
And in terms of, you some rural schools, you've
probably got staff who've beenthere for a long time. How did
you find kind of managing thosestaff when you first arrived in
your rural schools? How did youfind that?
Andrew (26:24):
I had I walked into a school that had staff that had
been there for a very long whoexpected that they would get
young male principals coming andgoing. That was quite
challenging in terms trying toimplement any or new ideas.
there is always a way through it.But it comes back to a point I
(26:46):
think Alistair or Kylie werementioning that you can't expect
to come in and do things in ahurry. So it taught me to be
strategic and let things taketime for change.
Kylie (26:57):
yeah just fully agree with that take time I just
remember that was one of myfirst things that I learned up
here is that it nothing happensfast and that's okay it was
great for me to learn to slowdown and just one thing
Eleisha (27:09):
Yeah. Alistair.
Alistair (27:11):
Yeah, stable staff, having staff that you move into
and they've already been therefor a few years, double edged
sword, yes, they could be stuckin their ways, but I've always
found them to be a real resourceof wisdom and how things go and
how we do things here, helpingthe culture remain and also give
you those connections with thecommunity, which is fantastic.
Eleisha (27:32):
Yeah. What would your advice be to an urban principal
or an aspiring principal who'sthinking about rural
principalship? What would yousay, uh, the most important
things they should know beforethey think about making that
transition? Um, Andrew?
Andrew (27:48):
Get a bit of an understanding of the context
that you're looking at. And becognizant of the fact that
you're going to have a broadrange of tasks at hand that you
will required to do and you'regoing to be very hands-on, and
you are going to need to be veryconnected to your community.
Eleisha (28:06):
Yeah. Kylie.
Kylie (28:08):
I guess it's it's part of you know being aware of the
context that you're going into,absolutely, do your homework and
that homework too around thehistory of your kura in terms of
their staffing, just be aware ofhow many other principals might
have gone before but go in andand listen and
Eleisha (28:24):
Yeah.
Kylie (28:24):
value the school's journey think about where
they're at and how you in yourtime of guardianship with that
kura or you know how you cancontribute and continue the
school on their journey, whatcan you add but and then take
the community with you um Ithink that if you're making the
switch from urban to rural, Iwould say do it I don't think
you know if you go in with umthe right mindset you won't
(28:47):
regret it and the challengeswill be massive but the rewards
will be even more
Eleisha (28:52):
Cool. Allister.
Alistair (28:53):
Yeah, I think this is such an important question. I
think first and foremostteaching, you've got to be a
bloody good teacher becauseteaching has to come first, but
you know, it's very easy to getcaught up with the admin and get
excited about property and stufflike that. Teaching is at the
core and you've got to lookafter that so don't get
distracted because because thebells and whistles are out there.
(29:15):
As Andrew do your preparation,you know, ask your current
principal for advice. Get sometime with them to discuss their
role and what it is that theyactually do because really
you've got no idea as a teacherwhat principals have to go
through and all the complexitythey have day by day and the
pace that they work with. Onyour CRT, go and visit a rural
(29:36):
school and you know, for yourown professional development,
just go and see what what theprincipal does sit down with
them and go over what the roleentails. And if you can get some
prior PD around the knowledge ofaccounts and staffing and hiring
and then that, that's good prepbut it will be taught to you on
the job and there's pretty goodPD out there.
Eleisha (29:58):
Excellent. Hey, thank you all so much for your time
today, so been some really greatadvice.
Kylie (30:04):
Thanks
Eleisha (30:04):
Thanks,
Kylie (30:05):
guys
Andrew (30:05):
Bye.
Eleisha (30:05):
guys. See you later. In the next episode, we're going to
talk about planning for thestart of a new school year. Mā
te wā.
Kia ora, and welcome to The Principals, a podcast series
for aspiring and current tumuakiin Aotearoa New Zealand. I'm
Eleisha McNeill. Today we'reexploring what it really means
to make the transition fromurban to rural principalship
beyond the romantic notions ofsmaller classes and closer
communities. I'll let my guestsintroduce themselves.
Andrew (00:30):
Kia ora koutou, ko Andrew King tōku ingoa, tumuaki
o Oropi School in Tauranga Moana,and I'm the president of the New
Zealand Rural Schools LeadershipAssociation.
Eleisha (00:41):
Fantastic, Kylie.
Kylie (00:42):
Ah, tēnā kātou katoa, he uri tēnei o Te Maunga
Taranaki, ko e te tumuaki o TeKura o Ara Pōhue, um, ko Kylie
Piper tōku ingoa. So I am KyliePiper, I am Principal at Ara
Pōhue School up in Te TaiTokerau, and I have been at my
kura, this is my seventh year atmy kura, it's a U1 school,
currently with 35 students.
Eleisha (01:04):
Thank you. Allister.
Alistair (01:06):
Ah, kia ora tatou, uh, ko Alistair Schaw tōku ingoa,
ko tumuaki o Te Kura o Aokauterein the mighty Manawatu, um, and
this is a U4 school about 150kids.
Eleisha (01:17):
Thank you. yeah, yeah. Uhm, I wanted to start by asking
each of you how you became atumuaki in a rural school. Uhm,
maybe start with you, Alistair.
Alistair (01:27):
So I grew farming near, uh, Ongaonga, a little village
in central Hawke's Bay, went toWaipukurau, so the grand
metropolis.
Eleisha (01:36):
Haha.
Alistair (01:36):
So rural has always been in my, in my blood. Went
and trained in Palmerston NorthTeachers College as it was back
then, and, took two jobs aturban schools, so in Woodville
and, um, at Winchester School inPalmerston North, and, then I
gained my first role as a U1principal in Whangaehu, near
Wanganui. And, it was partlycareer, it was partly, um, I
(02:00):
wanted to be, I the boss of myown destiny, and could do things,
I'd learned some stuff aboutteaching and learning, and I
wanted, not to be told I wantedto go off and, do. I was quite
young to be a principal, didn'tknow very much, wet behind the
ears, but I had a very forgivingcommunity and it was just the
best time. it's wonderful, but Iwas encouraged by some
principals too that I workedwith to, to, um, to go forward.
Eleisha (02:22):
Fantastic. What about you, Kylie?
Kylie (02:25):
So I was living and working in Christchurch, where I
had my first principalship, Iwas principal down there at
Shirley Primary, which was a U5urban school, and spent 2 and a
years in that role. At the timewe were working, it was
post-quake Christchurch. We wereworking through the Christchurch
renewal, I managing a rebuild ofmy school. It was massive growth
(02:47):
because two of our local schoolswere closed, I enrolled 50
children in my first two weeksof the job. And I had a very
young family at the time. All ofthat it proved to me, actually
it was quite unsustainable formy family or for myself to
continue, so, I stepped awayfrom that role and thought, how
can I do things differently if Iwant to make this work for
myself and my family? So, myhusband and I decided that we
(03:10):
would go on an adventure let'stry Northland because it's
supposed to be sunny up here. SoI applied for a rural
principal's job here at Arapohueand I was successful in that
position. Interestingly enough,when I won that one of my staff
from my last school said, 'Oh mygosh, Kylie, I remember you
always talked about just wantingto be p principal of a small
rural school'. So, took me along way around getting but here
(03:32):
I am now.
Eleisha (03:33):
Fantastic. What about you, Andrew?
Andrew (03:36):
Yeah, so I'm an urbanite through and still am an urbanite
in terms of where I reside andlive and so forth but I had
started teaching in largeprimary schools. And then I was
gunning to get intoprincipalshjp, I just wanted
that experience of leading aschool with its curriculum and
so forth. I started at LakeRerewhakaaitu School, which is
(03:58):
out by the base of MountTarawera, which is a lovely U2
quite isolated rural school of80 students. And I spent two and
a half years there with my veryyoung family at the time and my
wife, and then we moved back toTauranga, where I started at
Oropi, which had 100 students atthe time, and is now five, 350?
Eleisha (04:21):
So initially it sounds like you were all drawn a little
bit by lifestyle choices andthings like that. What were your
biggest assumptions about ruralschool leadership that turned
out to be completely wrong?
Andrew (04:35):
I had been a team leader of a very large team, the year
five and six team at a schoolcalled Tahatai Coast School in
Papamoa. And I thought, well,surely, going to be a principal
in a rural school of 80 kids,well, that's kind of the same,
isn't it? And I was proven very,very wrong because the buck
stops with you as the principal.And I'd forgotten that being a
(04:57):
principal means you'reoverseeing everything about a
school irrespective of its size.And so I learnt that just
because there were less kids inthe school, it did not make a
similar job.
Eleisha (05:11):
Kylie?
Kylie (05:12):
I don't know if this is an assumption so much, but I had
been told my whole career, becareful, watch out those rural
schools are dangerous inparticular the boards. The
boards think they own the schooland if they don't like you,
they'll crucify you. And evenonce I accepted the job, there
were so many people that warnedme about be careful of the board,
be careful of the board, theythink they own the school. It
(05:33):
was the common mantra I guess,
Eleisha (05:35):
Hmm.
Kylie (05:36):
but what I found coming to a rural school is to a
certain extent they do own theschool. They own it far more
than I do because they have gotgenerations of investment into
this school and this community.And this fly-by-nighter young
person,
Eleisha (05:50):
Ha,
Kylie (05:50):
principal that pops in and they're going to change it
all to show how clever they are.Yeah, I think it's about that
approach, so I know that veryearly on in my time here, I
ended up doing an enrolment witha grandfather who was enrolling
his grandson and thank goodnesssomebody had told me before he
came in that he used to be theboard chair for like 15 years,
and his wife was on the PTA, hehad been to the school, his
(06:13):
children had been to the school.That when he came in, I sat in
my office I said okay, hi Dave,tell me about your school
instead of me presuming. And sothat to me was the fundamental
thing that that community thosegenerations that have been here
will be here long after me. Andso honoring the work that
they've done and making sure weadd to what they've done rather
than try and create my ownlittle kingdom.
Eleisha (06:33):
ha. Yeah, good advice. Allister.
Alistair (06:36):
Yeah, I tautoko that, um, it is very, very true, that
longevity and history thatpeople have is so important, you
think you're gonna, gonna comein and change the world and do
things overnight, you do so atyour peril, you just be very
careful. I think I had animpression that rural school
would be easier, slower,healthier, I could be a master
of my own teaching destiny andto degree that is true. But
(06:59):
actually in principalshipthere's a lot of guidelines,
there's a lot that you do. WhatAndrew said before, it is
absolutely true. Ruralprinciples have to do everything
an urban principal does, it'sjust the numbers are smaller
Eleisha (07:11):
Hmm,
Alistair (07:12):
and we're probably a little bit more vulnerable to
our communities, I would say.
Eleisha (07:17):
absolutely. Andrew, did you want to add anything?
Andrew (07:20):
I love rural schools and I love what they can offer in
terms of a really localisedcontext for your curriculum. But
I said right at the beginning,I'm an urbanite and what I found
incredibly challenging wasliving in an isolated community
30 minutes out of town,
Eleisha (07:36):
Hmm,
Andrew (07:36):
and I hadn't really prepared myself for that,
particularly with young children.
Eleisha (07:41):
yeah. That would be hard with young kids especially,
you know, if you're new to acommunity, you don't know people
when you first move there. Howdid you go about building those
connections?
Andrew (07:49):
That was very hard as well because they're very well
established connections in arural community that is strong,
and there's a perception thatcomes with being a principal in
those types of communities. Well,he's not going to be around for
very long,so we'll just keepour distance. Yeah, and so that
can affect how you go abouttrying to create relationships
(08:12):
and connections in the community.
Eleisha (08:13):
Hmm, what about you, Kylie? Did you find that too
when you first moved into thecommunity?
Kylie (08:18):
Absolutely. It was difficult and difficult for my
children to get, just to findtheir niche and get them
involved in things. I thinksomething that I wanted to
comment on that Andrew just sortof mentioned is around that
perception that you're not goingto stick around for long. I
think that was something elsethat I was an epiphany for me
(08:39):
coming into rural schools as Ididn't, I guess because of the
trajectory of where my careerhad taken me, I didn't realise
that you were supposed to use asmall rural school as a stepping
stone to go and be great in areal big school. So what I've
noticed at a lot of our ruralschools get is people just
coming in for their two yearsjust to cut their teeth, to
prove themselves and show thatthey can, and then rush off to
(09:00):
the bigger and brighter things.And so the perception of the
community too was you're notgoing to stick around for long.
I had kids at the school and I'dsay to them, how many teachers I
can't even remember all theirnames, I've had so many they
just they don't stay here withus for long. So that sign of
being able to, trying to showyour community that I'm here and
I'm invested, and my family,we're here to be a part. So for
(09:21):
me it was, you know, for mychildren to get established it
was finding groups getting theminvolved in dance or swimming
and sport. Whatever they weredoing my son and having their
pet lambs doing their calves,getting in with the farmers and
spending time on the farms andthat kind of thing just to make
them an established part, butgetting that message across that
we're for the long term.
Eleisha (09:39):
Hmm
Kylie (09:39):
Yeah, that was important for us.
Eleisha (09:41):
Alistair, did you find... How did you find making
connections in the community?Did they assume that you weren't
going to be there long?
Alistair (09:47):
Yeah, look, I think that's a real thing that the
communities do understand thatit's a career move in many cases,
especially the smaller theschool. So I've been at a U1, U2
and then all my other schoolsare being used U4s, which is
pretty cool, I think living inthe community has so many
benefits, you know, and in thesmaller schools we lived in the
(10:10):
school house, we had the benefitof that. I think before people
apply for a rural principal job,they need to think really
carefully, rural is not the sameas urban. There is a sense of
isolation, depending on whereyou are, the housing
availability, th socialisingwith the community, who are your
friends? How far away is yoursupport, especially if you've
got a small family. But I wouldalso say it is the most
(10:32):
rewarding teaching I have everdone. The closeness with the
community, all those things thatcan be a point of tension for
some, are also a hugeopportunity for your teaching
and learning, for yourleadership, for motivating a
community, for being involved indoing something of real worth
Eleisha (10:50):
That's awesome. I've talked to you about this before,
Andrew. But what are some of themost unexpected, non-educational
skills that you've had to learn?A few people have mentioned kind
of septic tanks and things likethat before. Alistair, what have
you learned that you neverthought you'd need to learn in a
school leadership role?
Alistair (11:09):
Building skills, plumbing skills, definitely not
always a septic, I try to steerright clear of that, but. It's
amazing how much you have tolean on yourself when you are
miles away from somewhere andit's going to cost you hundreds
of dollars to get a plumber outor an electrician, so minor
stuff. So I've learnt heaps ofpractical skills.
Eleisha (11:29):
That's awesome. Kylie.
Kylie (11:31):
At my interview here when I came for to my interview, my
question to the board was, youknow, what is important for me
to continue, what's the thingsthat you want, think that I need
to change, what do you think Ineed to maintain. And the only
thing that board wanted me to dowas make sure calf club runs.
And my answer at the time, as atrue city girl, was, I don't
(11:51):
know what it is, but I can learnand I can do it. And I mean, I
didn't even know animalhusbandry was a thing. Now, I do
know that, now I know thatleading and rearing and calling
are all very special categories.And I've, my students have
reared calves on site that I'veoverseen. I've had the sick
lambs, dying lambs brought to mein my office after they've just
(12:12):
been birthed and orphaned in andnurse them while I'm trying to
do my board report and things,And yeah, that's been terrific,
Lenny, 'cause I always had thesedreams of being a real rural
girl. But this job has, yeah,definitely taught me that, well
and truely.
Eleisha (12:27):
[laughs] Andrew.
Andrew (12:29):
I learnt a lot about grass
Eleisha (12:32):
[laughs]
Andrew (12:33):
the quality of grass in terms of for grazing for cattle
and beef, and I also learnt alot the standard effluent, in
water treatment systems. But Ithink the complexity of
strategic planning and workingwith all the groups that are
invested in the school communitythat are often quite intertwined,
(12:56):
so you have the parent teacherassociation, the Board of
trustees, the play group, thehall committee, the womens'
group, and various farminggroups, and you have to be
connected to all of them, andoften a lot of them are in some
of the other groups. might ateacher aid in your school,
doing the cleaning in yourschool and on the board and on
(13:17):
the PTA.
Eleisha (13:18):
Hmm,
Andrew (13:18):
And it's just really complex when you're strategic
planning in your school whenpeople have their own perception
of what was a priority for them.
Eleisha (13:28):
yeah.
Andrew (13:29):
And they want you to make sure that you did what they
wanted as a teacher, as a boardperson, as someone on the PTA.
Alistair (13:38):
If I could add something in there, and then I
think there's, um, there's acertain pace that rural schools
operate at. Coming from an urbanenvironment, you know, you have
your meetings after school andthey're, they start at this time,
they end at that time and you,you go and you move on to the
next thing you're at working atpace, because you have to,
there's stuff to do and it's abit, it's a bigger um beast. And
(13:58):
you go to a rural school andyou've got to soon realise that
people need time to talk, theyneed, this is their connection
time, they don't see each othervery often. So at the end of a
board meeting they would want totalk about, you know, how
calving and lambing was goingand for a while I sat there and
thought, well, how can Icontribute anything here? All I
had was a pet lamb in my backpaddock and I could call them on
(14:20):
about my productivity rate, was100% this year, how's yours
going? But just that chance forpeople to talk and connect and
you've, you've got to let ithappen. Yeah, that, that was
really important.
Eleisha (14:32):
So, obviously you had to adapt your leadership styles
when you moved from urbanschools to rural schools. Or am
I making an assumption? Did youhave to adapt your leadership
styles and if so, how? Kylie.
Kylie (14:45):
I think it's probably what Alistair was mentioning
before. I think that as a leader,or as a person, I've always been
relational, and that's beenfoundational to my approach to
leadership. But leading in arural school has enabled or
empowered me to become even morepeople focused, as Alistair said,
because we need to be, becauseour people are right there and
(15:07):
have that real need to connectand to socialise, to be heard,
to be seen. But I don't need tobe as systems focused.
Eleisha (15:15):
Hmm.
Kylie (15:16):
So in my previous school, when I was dealing with 70 new
entrants coming in a year, I hadto be so focused on how the
transition to school looked andhow many visits you allowed, and
what times they were in and whatday of that week they happened.
And I brought that same thing tomy school, and when I had the
first new entrant I tried tomanage them into that little box.
Took me a wee while till Irealised it doesn't matter, it's
(15:37):
two new entrants a year, and wecan actually just work around
them, and if they're busy on thefarm, or if they've got
preschool or mum's got a towntrip... And I love that I can
become, because I'm very systemsfocused, but I love that I can
be so human focused, andpersonalise every approach to
the child or the family that iscoming in, and that's an
absolute blessing of working ina small context.
Eleisha (15:59):
Allister, you're nodding.
Alistair (16:01):
Oh, I absolutely agree with what Kylie's saying, that
connection you have with yourparents and how your operations
have to fit around. I think theconnections are incredibly
important and recognising thatis crucial to a principal's role.
So the interconnectedness ofpeople in the community, the way
(16:22):
that you can bring the communityinto your school and that they
are welcome at these events andgetting the news out there, they
really want to be a part of it,they are invested. And I think,
you know, in an urban setting,principals can hide, there's
plenty of meetings to go to, ifyou go into a rural setting and
think you're going to be in theoffice, or you don't go to
sports or you Lord, Lord forbidyou don't go to Ag day and
(16:44):
present something, you've got tobe visible, you've got to be
there, they expect you to bethere, if you, if you, before
you become a principal, if youthink I'm an introvert, I'm not
that great with people, or Idon't want to be personally
connected then I think don't doit, you'll find it really hard.
Eleisha (17:00):
What about you, Andrew, did you have to adapt your
leadership style?
Andrew (17:04):
Yes, but my first thought when you asked that
question is you don't need tochange who you are as a person
and you don't need to change whoyou are as a leader,
Eleisha (17:13):
Hmm.
Andrew (17:13):
but there are certain things that you have to focus on
more as a leader in a small anda rural school. And I think one
of the biggest learnings for mewas making sure I was seen, at
least seen to be and genuinelylistening. And listening to all
the, what all the stakeholdersof the community were saying and
asking and talking about andunderstanding the vibe of the
(17:36):
community and how to keep themtogether. It's not about trying
to keep everybody happy, butjust being really in tune with
what is being talked about orperceptions that are out there
and how you might navigate that.
Eleisha (17:49):
Yeah. So, there's lots of opportunities, lifestyle
opportunities that come withliving in a rural community. And
how has that impacted on youpersonally, as well as in your
effectiveness as an educationalleader? Kylie.
Kylie (18:06):
That's a really interesting one, um because like
Andrew's saying, these are partof our skills, these are who we
are as leaders, but
Eleisha (18:13):
Hmm.
Kylie (18:13):
this environment has helped me become even more
authentic. I think when you talkabout keeping it real, because
there's nowhere to hide. So Ithink that affects me personally,
and my effectiveness as a person,and as a leader, because it
makes me a more authentic visionof myself, not the Christchurch
Kylie was overly different, butyeah, it's enhanced
Eleisha (18:31):
[laughs]
Kylie (18:32):
I just think, if you think about personal gain, just
living in such a beautifulenvironment, and I haven't gone
into a small country schoolwhere I haven't seen a beautiful
environment or a beautifuloutlook, and I've developed this
theory that there must be, itmust be some form of mindfulness
when you can look and nothinginterrupts your view to the
(18:55):
horizon, except nature, there'sonly nature there, and I think
that, and I was sharing thatwith a beginning principal just
a couple of weeks ago, and shesaid there's actually been
research done on that, if you'vecome from the city to that
environment, the health benefits,everything, are never ending,
and they continue to grow,whereas if you've grown up in it
then it does wear off, orsomething, so I think so for my
well-being, this environment'sgreat, let alone, you know,
(19:16):
having the outdoors at yourfingertips is, yeah, lots of
outdoor opportunities, but youknow, the family are great too
Andrew (19:23):
I agree. The context of a rural school is really good
for your wellbeing and that'swhat I've noticed and even
though I talked about before howI'm an urbanite at heart, the
outdoors are really important tome and the ability to connect
with the environment and be whoyou are in a rural school
environment is a lot easier aswell.
Alistair (19:43):
I agree with all of that, I think there is a healthy
aspect, the space, you can walkaround with the kids and you
know, climb trees, there'ssomething really healthy. For my
family, having my young familyat the time in a rural school
and in a rural community wasreally, really, it was an
amazing blessing. But I think interms of my teaching and
learning, the opportunities forme as a teacher, making learning
(20:08):
real to kids was so much moreadvantageous in a rural area,
and parents are willing to comeand share their skills. EOTC
camps, you know, that'sencouraged, they want that stuff
to happen, they want their kidsto climb trees, they want them
to build forts and stuff likethat. And that is amazing, it is
richer, and um definitelyhealthier I think.
Eleisha (20:30):
Uh, a hundred percent. And you mentioned there, you
know, parents are willing tokind of come in and help and
share their knowledge. Say ifyour plumbing breaks in the
weekend, you put out a call, youcan't get a plumber, does the
community come and kick in foryou.
Alistair (20:43):
It definitely does, look at talk about plumbing or
drainage, talk about drainage,man, they'll be in there.
Working bees, because you'reisolated and you need stuff done,
if you want something builtpeople have got the skills,
they've got the equipment,they'll be there because they
want the best for their kidsBuilders will just turn up. If
you've got a leak in the roof,look someone with a tarpaulin
will be there waiting for thebuilder proper to turn up. So
(21:07):
yeah, i huge advantages in thatway.
Eleisha (21:11):
Kylie, you are nodding furiously.
Kylie (21:13):
Yeah, it's that, it's the practical aspect of a farming
community, that, you know,people that are willing to pitch
in and get their boots dirty, ortheir hands muddy, or whatever,
but also, like they've also gotthe machinery and the stuff that
turns up, and that's the thingthat blows my mind, like these
people yeah they come inbucketloads but they come with
(21:35):
cool things and sometimes it'sbecause of phone call because
the water's gone and there's not,no taps are running and it's
ringing a grandfather who was onthe board in the 80s and he was
the only one that could manageit to remember where and how all
the tanks were hooked up, didn'tknow where to dig and he did
that. Another one that I thoughtof as Alistair was talking was
during Cyclone Gabby and this isup at the school house where we
(21:56):
had a caravan that apparentlyleaked and when it is a cyclone
coming through the leaking ispretty horrific. So me and my
husband were out there with thisten by eight tarpaulan trying to
wrap it around thing. It washorrific and I remember holding
onto the side of the caravan andtrying to hold this thing down
and then turned round seeing andthere was one of my parents on
the other side he said it lookedlike you needed a hand and he
was just driving past and he wasdriving because he was just
going around checking on all thefarms and seeing if everyone was
(22:18):
okay so there he was holdingdown the fort, he waited,we
tied it down and he justdisappeared again and he was
like oh bye thanks. That kind ofstuff I love.
Eleisha (22:27):
That's amazing, eh? T all come So aside from, you know,
having an amazing communityaround you, what do you think
are the unique advantages ofrural principalship? You've all
gone from urban schools to ruralschools. Can you see it both
ways? You know, in terms of, youknow, it's a great move to go
from urban to rural also a greatmove to start is a principle in
(22:49):
a rural school. What do youthink?
Andrew (22:52):
And most definitely, and it's a bit sad these days
because there a perception outthere that you're better off be
a principal in an urban school,but actually, starting
principalship in a rural schoolmeans that you learn about every
aspect of the school operation.that's gold. It's as a teacher,
if you can say that you'vetaught every year level in the
(23:13):
primary school, that sets youfor great success as curriculum
leader. Likewise in a ruralschool, you've got teach and
manage a school in every domainbecause you don't have a whole
lot of people to help you. Sothat set you up for success to
get the big jobs in the bigschools.
Eleisha (23:28):
You agree, Kylie?
Kylie (23:29):
I don't disagree with anything Andrew said then
absolutely and that thing ofknowing the job um hard for me
to comment on because I did itthe other way around, and to me
it was the most successful forme because that's my journey.
What I had the joy and thebeauty of as a beginning
principal is I had an amazingteam around me. I had my own PA,
(23:53):
I had my finance officer, I hadmy two walking deputy principals,
I had my caretaker and I had mycleaning company and I had my
team leaders and I just sat inmy office and I facilitated them
all and that was wonderful toteach me the role of the
principal. I did miss being onthe ground, cos I actually liked
it when I was the DP and I usedto solve and I used to unblock
the photocopier for people anddo all the things and be you
(24:16):
know all things to all people, Isuddenly sat in my office and
had everyone doing that, I justhad to you know, conduct which
was helpful for me howevermoving then to a rural setting
was absolutely incrediblebecause then I knew all of the
skills and things that where Isee so many of my peers my
beginning principals getting sooverwhelmed with all of the
stuff they've got to do, I hadthe fortunate privilege of
(24:38):
knowing all of the stuff andthen actually coming in and
being able to do it all myselfwhich yeah that has been
Eleisha (24:43):
[laughs]
Kylie (24:43):
an amazing way around for I do think yeah the ability to
know all aspects of the rolelike Andrew says is massive, I
do wish that our principals,that that was acknowledged of
that role that our small solecharge schools were allowed to
actually be principals and leadrather than having to be
full-time teachers with a bit ofprincipaling on the side, we
(25:03):
might have some more longevityin the role um and some more
success with
Eleisha (25:08):
What about you, Alistair?
Alistair (25:09):
It was interesting hearing Kylie's story because it
is, you know, fairly unique, Iguess, and as you were talking
Kylie, I was thinking of theimage of a conductor.
Eleisha (25:19):
[laughs]
Alistair (25:19):
And you had all that support people around you
helping with the finances andthe cleaning and whatever, and
the hiring, I guess, you know,HR stuff. You're the conductor
getting them all going and whata privileged position that was
because you saw principalship ina different way and you're
absolutely right that when youbegin in a rural school, you are
doing everything you're learningeverything so you're playing all
(25:42):
the instruments you don't evenknow how to play them, let alone
who's the conductor. So it's ahuge job. It's a huge job. I
think however that you do learnon the job, pretty strong in
that way and you,you can't maketoo much of a stuff up. There's
fewer pupils, you know, thereare fewer staff that you're
working with, so if you make amistake and you own it, yeah,
(26:02):
let's all move on in, and go. So,that ability to fail also makes
you stronger, I think you learnfrom it all.
Eleisha (26:09):
And in terms of, you some rural schools, you've
probably got staff who've beenthere for a long time. How did
you find kind of managing thosestaff when you first arrived in
your rural schools? How did youfind that?
Andrew (26:24):
I had I walked into a school that had staff that had
been there for a very long whoexpected that they would get
young male principals coming andgoing. That was quite
challenging in terms trying toimplement any or new ideas.
there is always a way through it.But it comes back to a point I
(26:46):
think Alistair or Kylie werementioning that you can't expect
to come in and do things in ahurry. So it taught me to be
strategic and let things taketime for change.
Kylie (26:57):
yeah just fully agree with that take time I just
remember that was one of myfirst things that I learned up
here is that it nothing happensfast and that's okay it was
great for me to learn to slowdown and just one thing
Eleisha (27:09):
Yeah. Alistair.
Alistair (27:11):
Yeah, stable staff, having staff that you move into
and they've already been therefor a few years, double edged
sword, yes, they could be stuckin their ways, but I've always
found them to be a real resourceof wisdom and how things go and
how we do things here, helpingthe culture remain and also give
you those connections with thecommunity, which is fantastic.
Eleisha (27:32):
Yeah. What would your advice be to an urban principal
or an aspiring principal who'sthinking about rural
principalship? What would yousay, uh, the most important
things they should know beforethey think about making that
transition? Um, Andrew?
Andrew (27:48):
Get a bit of an understanding of the context
that you're looking at. And becognizant of the fact that
you're going to have a broadrange of tasks at hand that you
will required to do and you'regoing to be very hands-on, and
you are going to need to be veryconnected to your community.
Eleisha (28:06):
Yeah. Kylie.
Kylie (28:08):
I guess it's it's part of you know being aware of the
context that you're going into,absolutely, do your homework and
that homework too around thehistory of your kura in terms of
their staffing, just be aware ofhow many other principals might
have gone before but go in andand listen and
Eleisha (28:24):
Yeah.
Kylie (28:24):
value the school's journey think about where
they're at and how you in yourtime of guardianship with that
kura or you know how you cancontribute and continue the
school on their journey, whatcan you add but and then take
the community with you um Ithink that if you're making the
switch from urban to rural, Iwould say do it I don't think
you know if you go in with umthe right mindset you won't
(28:47):
regret it and the challengeswill be massive but the rewards
will be even more
Eleisha (28:52):
Cool. Allister.
Alistair (28:53):
Yeah, I think this is such an important question. I
think first and foremostteaching, you've got to be a
bloody good teacher becauseteaching has to come first, but
you know, it's very easy to getcaught up with the admin and get
excited about property and stufflike that. Teaching is at the
core and you've got to lookafter that so don't get
distracted because because thebells and whistles are out there.
(29:15):
As Andrew do your preparation,you know, ask your current
principal for advice. Get sometime with them to discuss their
role and what it is that theyactually do because really
you've got no idea as a teacherwhat principals have to go
through and all the complexitythey have day by day and the
pace that they work with. Onyour CRT, go and visit a rural
(29:36):
school and you know, for yourown professional development,
just go and see what what theprincipal does sit down with
them and go over what the roleentails. And if you can get some
prior PD around the knowledge ofaccounts and staffing and hiring
and then that, that's good prepbut it will be taught to you on
the job and there's pretty goodPD out there.
Eleisha (29:58):
Excellent. Hey, thank you all so much for your time
today, so been some really greatadvice.
Kylie (30:04):
Thanks
Eleisha (30:04):
Thanks,
Kylie (30:05):
guys
Andrew (30:05):
Bye.
Eleisha (30:05):
guys. See you later. In the next episode, we're going to
talk about planning for thestart of a new school year. Mā
te wā.
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