June 14, 2024 • 52 mins
In this episode of the Rural Homelessness Podcast, host Matt McChlery discusses the differences and similarities between urban and rural homelessness with Christina Isaac, CEO of Just Home's charity, and Keith Smith, Director of The Ferry Project. They explore the challenges they face in their respective settings, such as lack of affordable accommodation, limited access to services, and the need for support in areas like mental health and employment. They also discuss the importance of social enterprises in providing sustainable funding and services for homeless individuals.
Links
Takeaways
- Rural and urban homelessness present different challenges, such as lack of affordable accommodation in urban areas and limited access to services in rural areas.
- Both rural and urban homelessness charities face the need for support in areas like mental health, employment, and basic necessities like food and shelter.
- Social enterprises can provide sustainable funding and services for homeless individuals, but they require community support and engagement.
- Collaboration and coordination between different organizations and agencies is crucial to effectively address homelessness in both rural and urban areas.
- Improving access to affordable housing and developing comprehensive support services are key goals for homelessness charities in the next five years.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction
00:29 Differences and Similarities between Urban and Rural Homelessness
06:04 Challenges Faced by Homelessness Charities in Urban and Rural Areas
32:54 Collaboration and Coordination: Keys to Addressing Homelessness in Rural and Urban Areas
38:48 Goals for the Future: Improving Access to Affordable Housing and Comprehensive Support Services
51:28 Conclusion
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
This is the Rural Homelessness Podcast,where we discuss the important issues
around rural homelessness, hear from thoseaffected by it, and offer some solutions.
Brought to you by the award -winninghomelessness charity, The Ferry Project.
Welcome to the Rural Homelessness Podcast.
(00:29):
Hello and welcome to the RuralHomelessness Podcast.
I'm your host Matt McChlery Thank you somuch for joining us.
Today we're going to be talking about thedifferences and similarities between urban
and rural homelessness.
And on today's show I'm joined byChristina Isaac, who is the CEO of Just
(00:52):
Home's charity, and Keith Smith, thedirector of The Ferry Project.
So let's welcome to the show, ChristinaIsaac.
Hello Christina.
Hello.
And Keith Smith.
Hello.
Hi.
And I guess our first question was youtalking about rural homelessness and urban
(01:14):
homelessness and sort of the similaritiesand differences that exist.
What would you say from your context?
I think first of all, let's define thecontext for our listener.
So let's start with you, Christina.
Are you involved with urban homelessnessor rural homelessness?
(01:36):
It's urban homelessness that I am involvedwith, very much urban.
And what part of the world or city or townis that?
We operate out of Newham, which is one ofthe inner London boroughs and one with one
of the highest number of deprivationincidents of
homelessness and also very low per capitaincome, low skills.
(02:03):
And also I think Newham is in UK the onewhich has the highest multinational
population as well.
Right.
Okay.
That's interesting.
So coming to you, Keith, then.
If Christina is representing the urbanview, I take it you're representing the
rural view for us today.
(02:23):
Can you tell us a little bit about whereyou are in the world as well?
Yep.
Okay.
So yes, very much rural.
So we're in North Cambridgeshire, a towncalled Wisbech which is in the Fenland of
Great Britain.
So it's the flat country at the top ofEast Anglia, that's reclaimed land and
farmland.
So Wisbech itself is a small market town.
(02:45):
The population is about 30 ,000, but thesurrounding area, so the next town is nine
miles away.
The next main town is 16 miles away, SouthKingsley, and the nearest city is
Peterborough, which is 24 miles away.
So we have small urban centers, then biggaps to the next small urban center.
(03:09):
So it is very rural.
with be to self is surrounded by lovelygreen farmland where at the moment it's
very wet because of all the rain.
Thank you.
Thanks for that.
Just sets us in a bit of context for therest of our discussion.
So from either of your perspectivesreally, and what would you say are some of
(03:31):
the toughest challenges you face as acharity in your setting?
So it's interesting.
I was listening to Christina and she wastalking about Newham and the deprivation
in seized.
in Newham.
So, Wizzbeach as well has very highdeprivation indices.
So, nationally we're in the top 10 % forthe most deprived communities and very
(03:54):
similar types of things, very low incomebecause the economy locally is based
around food and food prices.
People want to keep food prices low.
So, we're all about food production andthen going from the field into the can and
into freezer and so on.
So, we have the largest chip factory inEurope.
things like this in our area.
(04:15):
But so as a charity then, one of thechallenges we've got is that the next
nearest homelessness organization to us isactually 16 miles away.
So we're covering a vast area of land andwithin that land, homeless people can be
anywhere in that situation.
(04:36):
I mean, indeed, many of the homelesspeople we're supporting in our area don't
want to be found.
because they've experienced being attackedor abused by use or by others when they
are found.
So we find that our clients try and keep avery low profile wherever possible.
But the living conditions they're in arevery poor and any services they try and
(04:58):
access or seek support from are veryspread.
So we're still in a situation where thereare villages that only have four buses a
day.
So there's virtually no public transport.
There's no railway station in West Beach,so you can't come and go by train.
There's no dual carriageway coming intothe town.
So any transport into the town is verylimited.
(05:20):
So the people we've got are all on foot,moving around.
And if they're told by the system to dosomething, they might have to travel quite
significant distances to be able to go anddo whatever it is they're being told to
do.
And there's no public transport to enablethem to do that.
So they and we face, I mean, the jargon issocial isolation.
(05:43):
We face the fact that in a sense we're inthis on our own and we've got to develop
what we're going to develop by ourselves.
The network of support is comparativelysmall.
And, you know, as such, we have to come upwith ideas and solutions ourselves.
So, so that's, I'd say that was one of thebiggest challenges certainly starting up.
(06:04):
And indeed going forward, we've had tospend a lot of time building the networks
to allow us to get the support we need andindeed to access support for our clients.
And Christina, is that a similar picturefor you or are there vast differences?
For us, it is kind of the extreme oppositeof what Keith would say.
Like we have Stratford International here,so people come in from everywhere and
(06:30):
traditionally knew him as one of thepoorest burrows and
and also being the East and cheapest andcompared to other inner London boroughs.
So you have a huge influx of people whoare isolated and homeless and getting,
coming and accumulating in Newham.
(06:53):
When we used to do street crowns lastyear, almost, we used to have about a
hundred a night on the street.
And out of it, about 60 % were people whowere there for the first two or three
nights and who were people who had newlyarrived in the country.
So in that sense, there's a huge number ofpeople coming in.
(07:17):
And for that very reason, we also have alarge number of organizations who are
trying to address homelessness, justplease trying to make sure there's one
meal put in front of them.
It gets to the point because there's justso many of people out there trying to do
it, the lack of coordination between them.
(07:38):
So if two, three charities are runningsoup runs on a particular night without
coordination, these are hard earnedcollected money and you come out and
there's not enough people to have them.
So coordinating between charities of whatthey do, what days they do, how do they
complement their services, that is ahuge...
(08:00):
challenge in our borough.
And recently we have formed a group, sopeople who are kind of doing similar
things, then club together and try andsave resources to make it go around more.
So that is the reality on our part of theworld.
(08:21):
And I think when you talk abouthomelessness, the first thing we...
need to do to address us to provideaccommodation.
Finding affordable accommodation is one ofthe hardest challenges.
There are charities that buy propertiesand give it to homeless charities to use
(08:45):
them as accommodation.
But of all the ones that I know, becauseLondon property prices are so high, those
models does not work in.
in the London boroughs where they mightwork very well in Manchester or Birmingham
or even cities like that.
It will not work in Newham.
(09:06):
So shortage of properties is probably ahuge, biggest challenge.
And then it is complemented, it is morecomplicated by the fact that most of the
low skilled employment in London.
are fueled by people living in in outerLondon boroughs and especially in Newham.
(09:29):
So you have a disproportionate balance ofhouses and multiple occupancy when
compared to homeowners.
So the pride of the local land will comeand you take care of properties and do
things like that if you have homeowners.
And when you have six and seven peoplecrammed into a two bedroom house, the
(09:51):
situation becomes difficult.
So to address this, the London boroughshave got a ban on having planning for any
more HMOs.
So if you have this huge influx of peopleinto this borough, and if you have a ban
on HMOs, then even if you find anaffordable property, how do you get
(10:15):
planning to get something up and runninghere?
So.
Yes, then it is complicated why it'speople coming from different parts of the
world that comes in.
So the cultural beliefs and differencesplays a huge part in how they engage with
(10:35):
the Western community and how they respondto it.
Then lack of transferable skills or mostlylanguage.
If you have the language, almost everybodyhas.
innate skills that can be transferable.
But if you don't know the language, thenthat becomes a barrier.
So Newham in the North London borough is ahodgepodge of different kinds of issues.
(11:03):
Thank you.
And it's interesting.
It's interesting, Matt, just to pick up onwhat Christine's saying, because over the
last few years, so with speech then,because of the agricultural basis it
operates from.
is used to bringing migrants andoriginally it was from London and from
other urban centers, but over the last 30,40 years, it's been from Eastern Europe
(11:28):
and other parts of the world to WhispBeach to work on the land.
So something like 40 % of the jobs inWhisp Beach are living wage jobs, so the
minimum wage that people can pay.
But people can land in Whisp Beach and geta job within a matter of hours.
So people arrive in Whitsbeach and willhave a job working say on a farm or
(11:52):
working in a factory very quickly.
And they'll be able to sourceaccommodation very often.
They'll be able to source accommodationwith people that are similar to
themselves.
So in Whitsbeach at the moment, we'veactually got at least 17 different
nationalities in a small market town, manyof them from Eastern Europe.
(12:13):
So over a third of the population ofWhitsbeach is now
Eastern European, from Latvia, fromBulgaria, Romania, Lithuania, Russia,
they've all moved in.
Are you finding a lot of the people youencounter that sort of come through your
doors as a homelessness charity are fromthese migrant communities or is it still
(12:36):
quite heavily sort of local people?
Okay, so pre -Brexit.
What we found was people were coming infrom different parts of Europe and would
come in very ill -prepared.
Indeed, they were facing abuse.
Whispy was the first location where amodern day slavery offense was committed
(12:59):
and was actually taken to court.
So we found people, various people,abusing people by bringing them over,
charging them very high prices for theprivilege of bringing them to...
and then not supplying them with any sortof support or accommodation for that
money, actually indebted them and trappingthem in all forms of modern day slavery.
(13:21):
So at that time, the number of people thatthe Charity Homeless Charity Ferry Project
was supporting had a higher percentage.
So a third of the population is EasternEuropean.
We probably had half of our clients wereEastern European.
Now, since Brexit, we've actually seen itgo back to
what you'd call the normal state ofaffairs where the third of the population
(13:44):
is Eastern European and the third of thepeople we support are Eastern European.
So we find as many now indigenous Britsneeding support as well as any people
migrants coming into the area.
And indeed, most of the Eastern Europeansthat we're now seeing have been in here
for quite a while.
And what we're seeing is internalmigration around Britain.
(14:05):
So we're picking up people that haveactually been...
two other parts of Britain have movedhere.
So we're seeing a growth in our localBulgarian population, but Bulgarians are
moving from Britain rather than fromBulgaria.
So I've now been in this job for 25 years.
And when we started, what we used to havewas people, the children of people who
(14:27):
were on second or third generationbenefits who were coming out homeless and
coming in.
And I think that was at the beginning of
I think before that there was, I amexported into this country, I only came
here 25 years ago, so I wouldn't reallyknow what was there before.
People came with an expectation that whenyou were turned 18, you were going to get
(14:50):
a flat and you were going to get benefitsand that was how life was going to be.
And we came and I started working in thisarea when...
that belief was being challenged becauseyou didn't have flats coming in and it was
hostels you were coming into.
So it was mostly ethnic people from thiscountry, you know, trying to move on from
(15:12):
their parents who came through.
And then that quickly changed into, youknow, the second generation, the first
generation of immigrants were veryhardworking and they made their mark
and...
then they taught their children as well.
But it's come to the third generation,they've got used to being in a good
(15:36):
lifestyle.
And then the parents and grandparentscan't quite get an understanding of the
grandchildren kind of generation.
And a lot of the youngsters were beingthrown out.
And we were suddenly faced with all these18, 19 year olds who have very little
domestic skills, but very entitledattitude.
(15:57):
attitude coming through.
So then you had that wave of it.
And then you had this explosion ofimmigration coming from everywhere.
So right now it is an absolute hodgepodge.
You have people from every part of theworld coming in.
And the moment Britain opens up its doorsto refugees coming from anywhere, they
(16:22):
filter through.
And right now,
NASA accommodations are ending because alot of people are being given status to
remain in this country.
So it's just we are just inundated.
And to say I was looking at stats becausethis is the year end.
Last year we had five times the number ofapplications for the number of bed spaces
(16:46):
we had.
That is year before.
And last year we've had nine and a halftimes the number of applications to the
number of bed spaces.
And that is in spite of having increasedour bed spaces by 20%.
So it's just crazy here right now.
Keith, would you say your capacity issimilar?
(17:07):
Are you facing similar demands toChristina or is it different in the rural
context?
So, well, yeah, so this precise moment isdifferent.
We've had...
So we support probably about 300 people ayear.
We've grown our capacity.
So our capacity at the moment is justunder 80 who we support at any one time
(17:28):
provide accommodation.
So for us, those 80 beds, there are otherorganizations who do not support people
off the streets, but who will provideaccommodation.
So similar to housing associations whowill...
take people that we move on.
And at the moment in the area, the actuallevel of accommodation required is being
(17:53):
met by the accommodation that's available.
So the needs are there.
We're not seeing the fact that there's amassive shortage of accommodation.
What we are seeing is there's a shortageof move on accommodation.
So that's where our challenge is that thenumber of homes where we can move our
clients on one safe successfully gone forour programs.
(18:15):
are short, but certainly within ourselves,we've provided the accommodation.
We need to keep expanding.
So we expanded last year by 14 bed spaces,not quite the 20 you did.
So we're having to keep growing, but weare keeping pace.
Whereas, Sandvik and Christina, you'renot.
Nearly impossible to keep pace.
(18:38):
I've got one house now being refurbishedthat will bring in another eight bedrooms
and I've already started looking at it.
new property because of the demands butit's interesting what Keith said.
Keith said that he's got 80 bed spaces andhe's able to support 300.
We have got a similar number but I'm ableto support just double that in a half of
(19:01):
what Keith is supporting and that isbasically because people are surting
because there's absolutely no move onaccommodation for.
I'd like to move on someone between 16 to24 months, but come two years, where am I
(19:22):
supposed to turn someone off to?
And if I do, they repeat the cycle becausethey don't know where to go.
Because yesterday I was quite heartbrokenbecause I met someone who had worked
pretty hard, who had moved out with a joband he's back on the streets because he
lost his job and there's absolutelynowhere.
(19:43):
ago.
You mentioned having a number of beds andaccommodation space and then you're
talking about support being wider thanthat.
Could you just explain to us what thatmeans?
Because when I think of a homelessnesscharity, I think, okay, homelessness
equals a bed or somewhere to sleep.
(20:06):
What are these extra support elements thatyou're mentioning now as well?
So if...
If you could tell us, Christina, from yourperspective in an urban area, what does
that kind of extra support entail?
And Keith as well, if yours is similar ordifferent or additional to what Christina
might be doing.
(20:27):
Okay.
All right.
So how I see it is to be able for anyone,including me or you, anyone to be able to
function normally, we need a place tostay, warmth and food.
Those are like basic.
necessities of life.
So, and only then you can work with aperson to go from here.
(20:52):
So in our hostels, or we'd like to callthem homes, what we do is when someone
comes, we have a starter pack for them.
So we try and make the rooms as nice aspossible.
So it's a warm, cozy feeling you comeinto.
And then we have...
keep the number of people in each housesmall to around an average of eight to 10.
(21:15):
So it's a community field that they cancome into.
And they get the starter pack.
So when they come in, they get this set ofcutleries, plates, things like that, and
new bed sheets, pillowcases, duvet cases,everything.
So it feels like, OK, I've come from avery, very difficult surroundings.
(21:35):
But suddenly, hey, here are some.
tangible physical things that I can touchand feel that makes a difference.
So that is a basic start -up pack.
But then if some people have come off thestreet, sometimes it's hard to sit in a
room to have an interview with.
So we keep the supply of basic clothing,shaving stuff, deodorants, body wash,
(22:00):
everything.
So the first thing they do is go and takea shower before they come and sit with us.
So that is kind of a starter situationthat we have.
Let's say 20 % of our client groups belongto that situation where they need a shower
before they can sit and have aconversation.
(22:20):
But what that does is it suddenly lifts aperson and makes him human and makes him
give that self -confidence that, OK, I amat par with or equal to someone.
Nobody can kind of now see through me tosee my...
or the situations that I've been through.
And then within our hostels, we providefree laundry facilities.
(22:44):
That's a dryer and washing machine,because a dryer specifically, because men
specifically can't be bothered to go andput the clothes out to dry.
And so it definitely is a washing machine.
And then we give everyone about 10 soappods in a month so they can do their...
they're washing and so there's no excusefor not cleaning up and it's sustainable.
(23:09):
And then the other that we do is toiletrolls.
They leave me toilet rolls because in theearly years, if they don't, nobody wants
to buy toilet paper so they'll stuffnewspaper down the drain and I am spending
money buying, spending for plumbing and Idecided that instead of that, I am going
to supply toilet rolls.
(23:31):
And that really helps with the basichygiene.
So you give them a start, a start thing.
And then the other thing that we do is weprovide a free hot meal every evening.
And the meals are of a good quality orsuch that our chefs, I'm very proud of my
chefs because food finishes like that.
If you don't turn up within an hour, it isgone.
(23:52):
So it is a good warm meal.
And the reason why that is done is ifthere is one warm meal going into a
person,
the likelihood of him going to drugs andalcohol drastically, drastically falls.
When a person is on low income, the lastthing they will spend money on is food.
And then last thing they'll spend moneyon, time on, is cooking food.
(24:15):
Whereas if there's one hot meal going intoa person, my ability to work with them
dramatically, dramatically increases.
So those are like, that's the basicsupport.
Then the other thing is a lot of peoplehave no idea how to maintain.
(24:36):
If you're talking about homelessness andif you're talking about them moving on to
somewhere, you need a basic domesticskills to be able to manage.
So every resident here has to spend twohours of their time a week towards the
running of the house.
So they are on a rotor to clean the commonareas.
They help the chef with the shopping.
(24:57):
They walk alongside the chef.
So if someone from Nigeria wants to haveone of their cuisines, the chef will buy
food from there and cook alongside thatperson.
So the cooking skills, the cleaningskills, believe it or not, they'll sweep
the floor before they've cleaned theworktop and you'll wash the inside of the
(25:18):
plate and not the outside of the plate.
So all of these kind of little things.
How do you use the vacuum cleaner?
how to change a vacuum bag, how toidentify between one that has a vacuum bag
in it and not.
Those kind of things.
We really spend some time equipping thesepeople.
So with a view of them being able to, whenthey do move on, they do know how to do
(25:41):
that.
And then sharing, the people that we workwith, the 90 or 80 % of them will be
moving on to shared accommodation.
So how do you...
respectfully share an accommodation whereyou have common kitchen facilities, common
toilet facilities, things like that.
So really try and work on that.
(26:01):
And then the last but the least, and notthe least, is then support towards
engaging with any kind of employment-related training, language training, and
employment.
So that is like the spectrum of support wetry to provide.
one thing more.
after COVID, there's a huge effort nowthat's put in to support people,
(26:26):
especially the older ones to engage withtechnology and be able to claim Universal
Credit or credits online and to know howto operate a bank account remotely.
And that really seems to make adifference.
Yeah.
So Matt, we in WhizBeach, we do all thatChristina has just done, but we've also
(26:49):
got
much, we've also got a significantproportion of people with health related
problems.
So many of the, many of the, well, infact, the vast majority of the clients
come to us will have a health issue.
So 80 % of our clients have mental healthproblems.
And so we've got an embedded mental healthworker in our service who actually will be
(27:10):
supporting those individuals both toaccess medical treatment as required, but
also the.
I'm doing the first stage of assessment ofpeople with mental health issues.
We work very closely with local GP surgerywho actually come into the hostel where
we're based and we'll provide a type of GPpractice service to individuals within the
(27:36):
hostel and that picks up some of theirphysical health issues.
So we see...
We see that alongside that we also havevarious behavioral problems and we support
people.
So we have trained counselors and we havevarious support from the staff to enable
the clients to manage previous trauma.
(27:58):
Now, one of the other significant thingsfor us is the fact that because we are the
service in the area, we have to meet theneeds of a full range of client groups.
So.
So that means we have to meet the needs ofwomen fleeing domestic violence,
transgender people who've been ejectedfrom their homes, people who are out of
(28:21):
work, as I say, people with enduringmental health problems, people with some
learning difficulties, men fleeing violentsituations.
So we get a massive spectrum.
And so therefore,
The support work that we've got to do veryoften is around supporting them with
managing the trauma that they've gonethrough that has led to their homelessness
and then helping them to move forward outof that situation.
(28:45):
And we can't rely on other services to dothat because there are no other services
in our type of environment.
We've actually created and brought peoplein to enable those services to take place
within the supports that we're providing.
So, yes.
So.
Absolutely what Christina was saying,helping people to feel safe and secure and
(29:07):
warm and well -fed and in a place wherethey can be open and honest and share and
talk.
But then we have to build on top all theseadditional higher level services, if you
like, with health and other types ofthings to actually help them to move
forward.
And just like Christina, one of the mostimportant things is obviously benefits
(29:28):
support to help them get stable in theirfinances now.
but also employment support to help themmove forward.
So it's interesting, Christina, when youwere talking about the qualifications.
So, so Wisbeach is in the bottom fivetowns in the country for its level of
qualification.
And we find that people withqualifications leave Wisbeach and will go
(29:49):
to other places because there's no jobsfor people with degrees or high
qualifications.
So many of the people we're supportingwon't even have a GCSE or a qualification
in their own country.
Some of the people that we find comingfrom other countries are illiterate in
their own language.
So never mind illiterate in English,they're illiterate in Bulgarian, if
(30:10):
they're Bulgarian or in Lithuanian.
So the locality seems to attract becauseof the nature of the work, which is very
physical and land -based, we seem toattract people with very low academic
skills.
And so quite a bit of our work is tryingto support them to develop those skills to
become job ready to move on as well.
So...
(30:30):
Yeah, but there's lots of similarities,very significant amount of similarities
between the work we do.
And in that sense, you know, Keith has amuch bigger challenge than we do.
And because of where we are and because ofthe need and because of the sheer number
of different organizations in the borough,we are able to focus a little bit more.
(30:52):
So for our men's work, we focus on lowskilled, low support client groups, low to
medium support client groups.
So we do have mental health problems, butnot severe to the sense that Keith would
be working with, because there are otherservices we can refer them to if we find
that these are beyond our ability.
(31:12):
And then we also work with women with norecourse to public funds.
That's before the refugee status.
It's a lot through modern slavery routeand escaped in some way or the other.
So we do a specialist work in thatcategory and then we do what we do.
(31:36):
So that is an advantage of being in arural setting over that of Keith because
Keith has to be Jack of many trades whereI can be a slightly more specialized.
And it's interesting, isn't it, Christina?
Because we're seeing in a sense we've gotto provide...
a comprehensive service because we've gotto cover everyone.
(31:59):
Whereas your numbers are so great, there'sno chance at all that you could possibly
cover everyone.
You've got to provide, you're almostproviding services just to try and stop
the breach in the dam that's pouring allthose people in.
And we're in a different situation wherewe've got people who have significant
issues and we need to work with thosesignificant issues to try and to help them
(32:22):
move forward in their life.
It's interesting how
how the different, the urban and the ruralhave created those types of different
spectrums, isn't it?
Because it isn't naturally what you'dnecessarily think, but that's the outcome
of rural versus urban.
How do clients access your services or ifsomeone's finding out that they're going
(32:44):
to be homeless or if they've just landed,got off a plane and they've got nowhere to
go?
It's very difficult.
There's not really, if in an airport, youdon't really see a big poster saying,
If you've got nowhere to stay, phone thisnumber or, you know, if, if your landlord
sends you a letter saying, well, you'vegot until next week and then you're out.
(33:05):
how do people know about your charities?
How do people get put in touch with you?
How can people access the support that youoffer?
So in Whisby, it's comparativestraightforward in the sense that all the
agencies in the town know that we're thehomelessness service.
So therefore.
If somebody goes to the police or as theygo to a doctor surgery, if they go to the
(33:28):
local council, even if they go to thelocal supermarket and say they're
homeless, everybody will point them ourway.
They'll tell them where to go and we'llpoint them in our direction.
And let's face it, the town itself, itsdiameter is not huge.
So somebody could walk, even if they hadto walk from one side of the town to the
other, it's still only probably about fivemiles.
(33:50):
So they could walk to our services andthey can come.
So.
There's that, there's lots of word ofmouth in our area.
And obviously we're very much on socialmedia.
So, so if somebody was to Google in, inwith speech, homelessness services, we
would come up and they would be able tofind us quite quickly.
So if, if they're using their phones, ifthey're talking to other people who they
(34:11):
see, if they communicate with anyone, andindeed we have an outreach team as well.
So if somebody ends up sleeping roughanywhere in the area, we have got people
who are going out, tried to find them.
trying to bring them in, tell them thatthis service is available, this is where
you can get support.
So we can communicate and because the sizeof the town is manageable, we can get the
(34:36):
information across that area prettyquickly.
So half of our referrals are self-referrals.
People just turn up to us and startsharing the difficulties or whatever.
So, and when we ask them, they'll say, afriend told me, I looked on the internet,
you know,
A policeman told me where to go, whateverit was.
(34:56):
So yeah, that's for our market town, whichis a discreet entity in a sense.
Yeah.
How does it work for you, Christina?
Yeah, it's kind of similar because we'vebeen here for so long that almost, but
it's just that the number of referringagencies are numerous.
I think there is about 37 of referringbecause I was just counting where all
(35:19):
referrals came up.
That's why I'm coming up.
37 different places from which we've hadreferrals from.
And then 20 % of our referrals have beenself -referrals, that is people who've
known, who's been through our servicesword of mouth and like that.
And then there's numerous agencies herewho refer people up and HedgePASS is the
(35:45):
main one.
So there are many directories here onwhich we are.
So...
When someone, a person presents themselvesas homeless, then they put in an
application form and it kind ofautomatically comes to us.
And then we have the self -referral.
So we all have a website on which you canput in an application form.
(36:06):
It comes to us and we do a telephoneinterview and we put people on a waiting
list.
And then every week we check our waitinglist to see who was in and who was out.
Yes.
And that's interesting as well, Matt,because although we do have a waiting list
(36:27):
on the whole, if we find somebodyhomeless, we'll almost certainly have the
ability to house on that day.
So, so we can actually bring people intoemergency accommodation.
We've got nine beds of emergencyaccommodation to people coming off the
street.
And although there are times when they'refull, probably 50 % of the time, if
somebody was homeless today, we'd be ableto get them accommodation today.
(36:49):
And if they're...
If they're homeless and tell us they'rehomeless and so on, we'd certainly expect
to be accommodating them within a week.
So that's what I mean by the accommodationoffer that we've got is sufficient to meet
the need locally.
We can actually get people off the street.
Now, continuously people are becominghomeless for all sorts of reasons, but
(37:10):
we've got the capacity at the minute toactually meet the need.
And because our area is not particularlygrowing, so other parts of the country are
growing, our area...
There is not huge amounts of housing goingup in our area.
We can meet that throughput.
As I say, the challenge that we've got iswhere they go once you leave.
As in Christina sounds like she's gotsimilar things, but I think she's got much
(37:32):
greater problems because our average stay,we can normally move somebody on within a
year.
Whereas Christina was talking about twoyears.
Yeah.
So we.
And, and we have a waiting list of.
between 15 to 20 on every given day andpeople literally ring us who are on the
(37:55):
waiting list.
You said I'm on the waiting list, how farup am I?
And our answer is we only have a vacancywhen someone moves out.
And it's really sad.
We really are overwhelmed.
So given the...
different nature of the challenges thatyour organizations face in either the
(38:19):
rural or the urban context.
Where would you hope your charity would bein about five years time?
If you had a magic ball or a magic wandthat you could possibly wave, what are
some of the key things you would like tohave improved or got better or whatever?
(38:43):
Where do you see yourselves in about fiveyears?
Can I say something else before that?
Yes, go.
Before we go there.
I think one of the biggest challenges iswe are here assuming that we expand and
the government is going to pick up thebill for it because the money for running
this place basically comes from housingbenefits.
(39:06):
And we are not a commission service asopposed to Keath.
So there is funding for support.
we privately raise from other trusts.
So that's an additional job that I have tokeep the show on the ground.
So the local authorities here arecompletely overwhelmed.
(39:26):
So even if we can somehow, I'm taking aprivate mortgage through Charity Bank and
buying these properties and putting the,so in a way, aiding the local government
to do that.
But in spite of that,
the local government's ability to come upwith a sheer number of housing benefits
payments that are due is, it is limited.
(39:51):
It's not a never ending pause and we knowthat.
And when interest rates went up, myinterest rates went up from 0 .75 % to 6
.5.
my God, where is the difference comingfrom?
And we just pulled through and glad thatit's stable now.
It's not going up anymore.
Do you know?
finances is a huge, huge issue.
(40:16):
So ideal position in five years time,there was some dramatic change in
surroundings and people didn't need us,would have been the most ideal outcome
that we could have.
But we are hoping for my charity'sperspective, I am hugely now reliant on
(40:36):
mortgages and with recent years.
instability in the market.
You can see how unstable that can make acharity like mine when interest rates goes
up, your output goes up, but your housingbenefits rates are not going to go up.
So being stable and sustainable and not betossed about by the market forces would be
(41:04):
which is what I am going to concentrateover the next five years and increasing
capacity on that basis.
So that does mean having a balance betweenraising grants as opposed to taking
mortgages, but also with everything havean element of self -help built in and not
(41:28):
prepared to not be wholly dependent onlocal councils and handouts almost.
I would think, 10 years ago, 15 years ago,the ideas of social enterprises were
fledged and a lot of us went into it andKeith was in it and I was in it.
And then suddenly it has gone out offashion.
(41:49):
So I really hope that social enterpriseswill come back into the market.
Two things, because it gives charitieslike us an ability to gain some of our own
income.
And then the other thing is gives anopportunity for our client groups to gain
(42:09):
a skill and then move on from us.
So, you know, Keith briefly touched on thefact that, you know, keeping food prices
low, keeping this low, keeping that low,and then you're basically eradicating
local businesses here.
There is what do we have in production inthis country?
Absolutely nothing.
(42:29):
So I think for people who are listening,
Buy locally, even if it's that 10p moreexpensive.
If you're buying something from a socialenterprise, you are maybe spending 10
pounds, 10p more on whatever you aredoing, but help charities like us.
(42:52):
Help us to deliver your service and helpus to earn our own living, because it is
insustainable to expect.
the local councils or the centralgovernment to keep on producing money for
this insatiable need of people who areturning up at outdoors.
Some really good thoughts there.
(43:13):
Thanks, Christina.
Keith, what about you?
So, so, just following on from whereChristina is, so where she was mentioning
about how social enterprises, it's goingout at the minute, but for us, that's not
the case.
So, so for instance, we're still beingable to run.
social enterprise in our area.
So we run a community center and thatbrings in some money for us to operate
(43:38):
services.
We've higher out some of our space.
So whereas Christina's shorter spaceactually in Wisp Beach compared to Newham,
house prices are very low.
Rental prices are not that much loweractually, but the actual purchase price
for property is significantly lower.
(43:58):
So we were able to buy quite a bigproperty when we bought our accommodation.
So there's actually space.
We've just created recently an art galleryin our property and the art gallery is
paying us money to rent space.
So we're getting space from that.
We have a cookery school and that includesprivate cookery lessons for individuals
and they pay for that cookery lessons andthat actually brings money in.
(44:22):
So we're still generating income fromsocial enterprises.
And absolutely what Christine was sayingabout...
If the listeners were prepared to engagewith social enterprise and buy from those,
that's a massive help because as she said,it's all about self help.
Then we're actually earning the incomethat will allow us to carry out the
services we're doing.
That is so much better than giving us aground.
(44:44):
Be a customer, work with us, help us toearn our own income.
Absolutely.
And that's the ideal, isn't it?
Because we want to be in control of ourown destiny.
We don't want to be...
We don't want to teach, if you like, oneof the things that we're certainly for
ferry all the way through and my knowledgeof Christina's organization is the same.
In a sense, we don't want to become thebeggar on behalf of a homeless person.
(45:09):
So we don't want to go around begging formoney so that the homeless person doesn't.
We'd much rather model what we're tryingto say to them, which is work, earn it, go
out and work and earn it.
That's exactly what we want to do, whichis why the social enterprise model is so
important.
So.
So we will be looking certainly over thenext five years to continue developing the
social enterprises.
(45:29):
We've got perhaps developing some new onesand we are looking at some interesting
ones.
So one of the things I would love to seein the next five years would be an
increase in dental services because wecannot get our clients into a dentist at
all.
So less than 1 % of our clients have gotaccess to a dentist.
(45:50):
And many of our clients end up at A &E andhave to go through incredible pay that
they have before they can get dentalsurgery and dental treatment.
So one of the things I'm actually startingto investigate is starting a dental social
enterprise.
I was going to say that to you.
It's very capital, I had looked at it.
(46:13):
It's very capital intensive because of theequipment that is needed, but it's one of
the most profitable you can have.
And usually the practice manager is apartner in a dental practice.
So if you can get two dentists and webecome as a charity, the practice manager
providing the business, we can make a cut.
I had actually done the business plan onthat.
(46:36):
And the building fell through.
So I wasn't able to pull it through.
So here you go, Matt, we'll do a bit ofjoint working here.
So Christina, you can send me a businessplan.
I've got the accommodation.
I still see, NHS was supposed to give up abuilding and we were going to have a
(46:57):
nursery on the ground floor and a dentalsurgery on the further end of it.
But in the last minute they took thebuilding back on.
I shall see if I still got it.
We had done plans and everything.
I'm not sure.
I was just literally heartbroken becauseit was nearly one 18 months work, you
know, then after that, someone pulls therug over from under your foot and you just
(47:20):
feel like, okay, chuck this, had enough.
Well, you see, this highlights perfectlythe difference between rural and urban.
So in the rural area, actually accessingthe space, we can access the space.
So we've got opportunities, we've gotspace, we can do that.
What we haven't got is the services.
So we have to create the service orencourage those services to be developed
(47:43):
ourselves because the services aren'tavailable.
So currently, for example, in ourcommunity center that we run, the NHS
rents space off us to deliver the diabeteseye clinic.
So they're actually using our building todeliver their services.
And as I say, the local GP surgery comesinto our building to deliver services to
(48:04):
homeless people, whatever situation thosehomeless people are in.
they're meeting those needs.
The mental health worker is based withinour service, doing work with the various
clients that we do.
So we have the space for a dental surgery.
What we can't find is a dentist that wouldwork with us.
(48:24):
So we're struggling to do that.
So we've actually managed to find a semi-retired dentist who said he would be
interested in working alongside.
And he's even got a plan of how we can getthe equipment and so on.
So that's why we're now developing it.
And interestingly, I've shared it with ourlocal health services and they're all
telling us, go for it.
(48:44):
They would really be pleased if wedeveloped a social enterprise dentist.
So we'll see if we can do that.
Shilak, it was an idea about six yearsago.
Fine, well, so we'll see what we can do.
So yeah, so for us, it's about trying toget that comprehensive set of services.
(49:07):
that are unavailable if we're not around.
And what we're starting to see is it's notjust unavailable to homeless people, but
it's unavailable to the community as well.
So some of what we're trying to developmight start with supporting homeless
people, but then it grows beyond that.
It actually starts to help the poorer inthe community who are not homeless, but in
danger of becoming homeless and graduallyyou try and start to influence the
(49:30):
community as a whole.
So.
So, yeah, so if we're moving forward, it'sthat development of services and actually
providing people with services, which ingeneral in cities are available and yet in
the rural area.
And just to contrast the figures, 2012, wehad a turnover of about 1 .6 million for
(49:51):
our social enterprises.
And now it is under £100 ,000 and it'smainly went because of lack of premises.
because our warehouses had the land onwhich our warehouses were given planning
permission for posh flats.
So overnight it went.
And if you want to access this, if youwant local people to access services, you
(50:14):
have to have a presence in the city wherepeople are.
And then it is the buildings that does thekilling.
We had a huge...
Clothes collection and recycling businesswent because there was no sorting place,
just had to close it.
(50:35):
We started plastic recycling, collectingsecondhand hard plastics, bailing it and
sending to China.
Warehouse went, business went.
Furniture recycling, warehouse went,business went.
So, yeah, very hard.
(50:57):
Yes.
And so just comparative to that, so oursocial enterprises would be, so five years
ago would be earning about 200 ,000, we'reprobably up to about 300 ,000 now.
So it's on the lower level, but we'reseeing gradual growth, whereas Christina,
yours is up and down, yours was massivelyhigher than ours and then it crashed and
(51:18):
stuff like that.
So yes, we don't tend to see the sameswings, the massive variation that you're
seeing.
Well, Christina and Keith, it's been avery interesting discussion, really
interesting to see some of thesimilarities and indeed the differences
between homelessness and homelessnesscharities working in rural and urban
(51:42):
areas.
So Keith Smith from The Ferry Project andChristina Isaac from Just Homes.
Thank you so much for joining us here onthe Rural Homelessness Podcast.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Bye.
Thank you.
Bye bye.
thank you as well for listening and dotune in again for another episode of the
Rural Homelessness Podcast.
Thank you.
(52:03):
Thank you for listening to the RuralHomelessness Podcast brought to you by The
Ferry Project.
Visit our website on www .ferryproject.org .uk.
This is the Rural Homelessness Podcast,where we discuss the important issues
around rural homelessness, hear from thoseaffected by it, and offer some solutions.
Brought to you by the award -winninghomelessness charity, The Ferry Project.
Welcome to the Rural Homelessness Podcast.
(00:29):
Hello and welcome to the RuralHomelessness Podcast.
I'm your host Matt McChlery Thank you somuch for joining us.
Today we're going to be talking about thedifferences and similarities between urban
and rural homelessness.
And on today's show I'm joined byChristina Isaac, who is the CEO of Just
(00:52):
Home's charity, and Keith Smith, thedirector of The Ferry Project.
So let's welcome to the show, ChristinaIsaac.
Hello Christina.
Hello.
And Keith Smith.
Hello.
Hi.
And I guess our first question was youtalking about rural homelessness and urban
(01:14):
homelessness and sort of the similaritiesand differences that exist.
What would you say from your context?
I think first of all, let's define thecontext for our listener.
So let's start with you, Christina.
Are you involved with urban homelessnessor rural homelessness?
(01:36):
It's urban homelessness that I am involvedwith, very much urban.
And what part of the world or city or townis that?
We operate out of Newham, which is one ofthe inner London boroughs and one with one
of the highest number of deprivationincidents of
homelessness and also very low per capitaincome, low skills.
(02:03):
And also I think Newham is in UK the onewhich has the highest multinational
population as well.
Right.
Okay.
That's interesting.
So coming to you, Keith, then.
If Christina is representing the urbanview, I take it you're representing the
rural view for us today.
(02:23):
Can you tell us a little bit about whereyou are in the world as well?
Yep.
Okay.
So yes, very much rural.
So we're in North Cambridgeshire, a towncalled Wisbech which is in the Fenland of
Great Britain.
So it's the flat country at the top ofEast Anglia, that's reclaimed land and
farmland.
So Wisbech itself is a small market town.
(02:45):
The population is about 30 ,000, but thesurrounding area, so the next town is nine
miles away.
The next main town is 16 miles away, SouthKingsley, and the nearest city is
Peterborough, which is 24 miles away.
So we have small urban centers, then biggaps to the next small urban center.
(03:09):
So it is very rural.
with be to self is surrounded by lovelygreen farmland where at the moment it's
very wet because of all the rain.
Thank you.
Thanks for that.
Just sets us in a bit of context for therest of our discussion.
So from either of your perspectivesreally, and what would you say are some of
(03:31):
the toughest challenges you face as acharity in your setting?
So it's interesting.
I was listening to Christina and she wastalking about Newham and the deprivation
in seized.
in Newham.
So, Wizzbeach as well has very highdeprivation indices.
So, nationally we're in the top 10 % forthe most deprived communities and very
(03:54):
similar types of things, very low incomebecause the economy locally is based
around food and food prices.
People want to keep food prices low.
So, we're all about food production andthen going from the field into the can and
into freezer and so on.
So, we have the largest chip factory inEurope.
things like this in our area.
(04:15):
But so as a charity then, one of thechallenges we've got is that the next
nearest homelessness organization to us isactually 16 miles away.
So we're covering a vast area of land andwithin that land, homeless people can be
anywhere in that situation.
(04:36):
I mean, indeed, many of the homelesspeople we're supporting in our area don't
want to be found.
because they've experienced being attackedor abused by use or by others when they
are found.
So we find that our clients try and keep avery low profile wherever possible.
But the living conditions they're in arevery poor and any services they try and
(04:58):
access or seek support from are veryspread.
So we're still in a situation where thereare villages that only have four buses a
day.
So there's virtually no public transport.
There's no railway station in West Beach,so you can't come and go by train.
There's no dual carriageway coming intothe town.
So any transport into the town is verylimited.
(05:20):
So the people we've got are all on foot,moving around.
And if they're told by the system to dosomething, they might have to travel quite
significant distances to be able to go anddo whatever it is they're being told to
do.
And there's no public transport to enablethem to do that.
So they and we face, I mean, the jargon issocial isolation.
(05:43):
We face the fact that in a sense we're inthis on our own and we've got to develop
what we're going to develop by ourselves.
The network of support is comparativelysmall.
And, you know, as such, we have to come upwith ideas and solutions ourselves.
So, so that's, I'd say that was one of thebiggest challenges certainly starting up.
(06:04):
And indeed going forward, we've had tospend a lot of time building the networks
to allow us to get the support we need andindeed to access support for our clients.
And Christina, is that a similar picturefor you or are there vast differences?
For us, it is kind of the extreme oppositeof what Keith would say.
Like we have Stratford International here,so people come in from everywhere and
(06:30):
traditionally knew him as one of thepoorest burrows and
and also being the East and cheapest andcompared to other inner London boroughs.
So you have a huge influx of people whoare isolated and homeless and getting,
coming and accumulating in Newham.
(06:53):
When we used to do street crowns lastyear, almost, we used to have about a
hundred a night on the street.
And out of it, about 60 % were people whowere there for the first two or three
nights and who were people who had newlyarrived in the country.
So in that sense, there's a huge number ofpeople coming in.
(07:17):
And for that very reason, we also have alarge number of organizations who are
trying to address homelessness, justplease trying to make sure there's one
meal put in front of them.
It gets to the point because there's justso many of people out there trying to do
it, the lack of coordination between them.
(07:38):
So if two, three charities are runningsoup runs on a particular night without
coordination, these are hard earnedcollected money and you come out and
there's not enough people to have them.
So coordinating between charities of whatthey do, what days they do, how do they
complement their services, that is ahuge...
(08:00):
challenge in our borough.
And recently we have formed a group, sopeople who are kind of doing similar
things, then club together and try andsave resources to make it go around more.
So that is the reality on our part of theworld.
(08:21):
And I think when you talk abouthomelessness, the first thing we...
need to do to address us to provideaccommodation.
Finding affordable accommodation is one ofthe hardest challenges.
There are charities that buy propertiesand give it to homeless charities to use
(08:45):
them as accommodation.
But of all the ones that I know, becauseLondon property prices are so high, those
models does not work in.
in the London boroughs where they mightwork very well in Manchester or Birmingham
or even cities like that.
It will not work in Newham.
(09:06):
So shortage of properties is probably ahuge, biggest challenge.
And then it is complemented, it is morecomplicated by the fact that most of the
low skilled employment in London.
are fueled by people living in in outerLondon boroughs and especially in Newham.
(09:29):
So you have a disproportionate balance ofhouses and multiple occupancy when
compared to homeowners.
So the pride of the local land will comeand you take care of properties and do
things like that if you have homeowners.
And when you have six and seven peoplecrammed into a two bedroom house, the
(09:51):
situation becomes difficult.
So to address this, the London boroughshave got a ban on having planning for any
more HMOs.
So if you have this huge influx of peopleinto this borough, and if you have a ban
on HMOs, then even if you find anaffordable property, how do you get
(10:15):
planning to get something up and runninghere?
So.
Yes, then it is complicated why it'speople coming from different parts of the
world that comes in.
So the cultural beliefs and differencesplays a huge part in how they engage with
(10:35):
the Western community and how they respondto it.
Then lack of transferable skills or mostlylanguage.
If you have the language, almost everybodyhas.
innate skills that can be transferable.
But if you don't know the language, thenthat becomes a barrier.
So Newham in the North London borough is ahodgepodge of different kinds of issues.
(11:03):
Thank you.
And it's interesting.
It's interesting, Matt, just to pick up onwhat Christine's saying, because over the
last few years, so with speech then,because of the agricultural basis it
operates from.
is used to bringing migrants andoriginally it was from London and from
other urban centers, but over the last 30,40 years, it's been from Eastern Europe
(11:28):
and other parts of the world to WhispBeach to work on the land.
So something like 40 % of the jobs inWhisp Beach are living wage jobs, so the
minimum wage that people can pay.
But people can land in Whisp Beach and geta job within a matter of hours.
So people arrive in Whitsbeach and willhave a job working say on a farm or
(11:52):
working in a factory very quickly.
And they'll be able to sourceaccommodation very often.
They'll be able to source accommodationwith people that are similar to
themselves.
So in Whitsbeach at the moment, we'veactually got at least 17 different
nationalities in a small market town, manyof them from Eastern Europe.
(12:13):
So over a third of the population ofWhitsbeach is now
Eastern European, from Latvia, fromBulgaria, Romania, Lithuania, Russia,
they've all moved in.
Are you finding a lot of the people youencounter that sort of come through your
doors as a homelessness charity are fromthese migrant communities or is it still
(12:36):
quite heavily sort of local people?
Okay, so pre -Brexit.
What we found was people were coming infrom different parts of Europe and would
come in very ill -prepared.
Indeed, they were facing abuse.
Whispy was the first location where amodern day slavery offense was committed
(12:59):
and was actually taken to court.
So we found people, various people,abusing people by bringing them over,
charging them very high prices for theprivilege of bringing them to...
and then not supplying them with any sortof support or accommodation for that
money, actually indebted them and trappingthem in all forms of modern day slavery.
(13:21):
So at that time, the number of people thatthe Charity Homeless Charity Ferry Project
was supporting had a higher percentage.
So a third of the population is EasternEuropean.
We probably had half of our clients wereEastern European.
Now, since Brexit, we've actually seen itgo back to
what you'd call the normal state ofaffairs where the third of the population
(13:44):
is Eastern European and the third of thepeople we support are Eastern European.
So we find as many now indigenous Britsneeding support as well as any people
migrants coming into the area.
And indeed, most of the Eastern Europeansthat we're now seeing have been in here
for quite a while.
And what we're seeing is internalmigration around Britain.
(14:05):
So we're picking up people that haveactually been...
two other parts of Britain have movedhere.
So we're seeing a growth in our localBulgarian population, but Bulgarians are
moving from Britain rather than fromBulgaria.
So I've now been in this job for 25 years.
And when we started, what we used to havewas people, the children of people who
(14:27):
were on second or third generationbenefits who were coming out homeless and
coming in.
And I think that was at the beginning of
I think before that there was, I amexported into this country, I only came
here 25 years ago, so I wouldn't reallyknow what was there before.
People came with an expectation that whenyou were turned 18, you were going to get
(14:50):
a flat and you were going to get benefitsand that was how life was going to be.
And we came and I started working in thisarea when...
that belief was being challenged becauseyou didn't have flats coming in and it was
hostels you were coming into.
So it was mostly ethnic people from thiscountry, you know, trying to move on from
(15:12):
their parents who came through.
And then that quickly changed into, youknow, the second generation, the first
generation of immigrants were veryhardworking and they made their mark
and...
then they taught their children as well.
But it's come to the third generation,they've got used to being in a good
(15:36):
lifestyle.
And then the parents and grandparentscan't quite get an understanding of the
grandchildren kind of generation.
And a lot of the youngsters were beingthrown out.
And we were suddenly faced with all these18, 19 year olds who have very little
domestic skills, but very entitledattitude.
(15:57):
attitude coming through.
So then you had that wave of it.
And then you had this explosion ofimmigration coming from everywhere.
So right now it is an absolute hodgepodge.
You have people from every part of theworld coming in.
And the moment Britain opens up its doorsto refugees coming from anywhere, they
(16:22):
filter through.
And right now,
NASA accommodations are ending because alot of people are being given status to
remain in this country.
So it's just we are just inundated.
And to say I was looking at stats becausethis is the year end.
Last year we had five times the number ofapplications for the number of bed spaces
(16:46):
we had.
That is year before.
And last year we've had nine and a halftimes the number of applications to the
number of bed spaces.
And that is in spite of having increasedour bed spaces by 20%.
So it's just crazy here right now.
Keith, would you say your capacity issimilar?
(17:07):
Are you facing similar demands toChristina or is it different in the rural
context?
So, well, yeah, so this precise moment isdifferent.
We've had...
So we support probably about 300 people ayear.
We've grown our capacity.
So our capacity at the moment is justunder 80 who we support at any one time
(17:28):
provide accommodation.
So for us, those 80 beds, there are otherorganizations who do not support people
off the streets, but who will provideaccommodation.
So similar to housing associations whowill...
take people that we move on.
And at the moment in the area, the actuallevel of accommodation required is being
(17:53):
met by the accommodation that's available.
So the needs are there.
We're not seeing the fact that there's amassive shortage of accommodation.
What we are seeing is there's a shortageof move on accommodation.
So that's where our challenge is that thenumber of homes where we can move our
clients on one safe successfully gone forour programs.
(18:15):
are short, but certainly within ourselves,we've provided the accommodation.
We need to keep expanding.
So we expanded last year by 14 bed spaces,not quite the 20 you did.
So we're having to keep growing, but weare keeping pace.
Whereas, Sandvik and Christina, you'renot.
Nearly impossible to keep pace.
(18:38):
I've got one house now being refurbishedthat will bring in another eight bedrooms
and I've already started looking at it.
new property because of the demands butit's interesting what Keith said.
Keith said that he's got 80 bed spaces andhe's able to support 300.
We have got a similar number but I'm ableto support just double that in a half of
(19:01):
what Keith is supporting and that isbasically because people are surting
because there's absolutely no move onaccommodation for.
I'd like to move on someone between 16 to24 months, but come two years, where am I
(19:22):
supposed to turn someone off to?
And if I do, they repeat the cycle becausethey don't know where to go.
Because yesterday I was quite heartbrokenbecause I met someone who had worked
pretty hard, who had moved out with a joband he's back on the streets because he
lost his job and there's absolutelynowhere.
(19:43):
ago.
You mentioned having a number of beds andaccommodation space and then you're
talking about support being wider thanthat.
Could you just explain to us what thatmeans?
Because when I think of a homelessnesscharity, I think, okay, homelessness
equals a bed or somewhere to sleep.
(20:06):
What are these extra support elements thatyou're mentioning now as well?
So if...
If you could tell us, Christina, from yourperspective in an urban area, what does
that kind of extra support entail?
And Keith as well, if yours is similar ordifferent or additional to what Christina
might be doing.
(20:27):
Okay.
All right.
So how I see it is to be able for anyone,including me or you, anyone to be able to
function normally, we need a place tostay, warmth and food.
Those are like basic.
necessities of life.
So, and only then you can work with aperson to go from here.
(20:52):
So in our hostels, or we'd like to callthem homes, what we do is when someone
comes, we have a starter pack for them.
So we try and make the rooms as nice aspossible.
So it's a warm, cozy feeling you comeinto.
And then we have...
keep the number of people in each housesmall to around an average of eight to 10.
(21:15):
So it's a community field that they cancome into.
And they get the starter pack.
So when they come in, they get this set ofcutleries, plates, things like that, and
new bed sheets, pillowcases, duvet cases,everything.
So it feels like, OK, I've come from avery, very difficult surroundings.
(21:35):
But suddenly, hey, here are some.
tangible physical things that I can touchand feel that makes a difference.
So that is a basic start -up pack.
But then if some people have come off thestreet, sometimes it's hard to sit in a
room to have an interview with.
So we keep the supply of basic clothing,shaving stuff, deodorants, body wash,
(22:00):
everything.
So the first thing they do is go and takea shower before they come and sit with us.
So that is kind of a starter situationthat we have.
Let's say 20 % of our client groups belongto that situation where they need a shower
before they can sit and have aconversation.
(22:20):
But what that does is it suddenly lifts aperson and makes him human and makes him
give that self -confidence that, OK, I amat par with or equal to someone.
Nobody can kind of now see through me tosee my...
or the situations that I've been through.
And then within our hostels, we providefree laundry facilities.
(22:44):
That's a dryer and washing machine,because a dryer specifically, because men
specifically can't be bothered to go andput the clothes out to dry.
And so it definitely is a washing machine.
And then we give everyone about 10 soappods in a month so they can do their...
they're washing and so there's no excusefor not cleaning up and it's sustainable.
(23:09):
And then the other that we do is toiletrolls.
They leave me toilet rolls because in theearly years, if they don't, nobody wants
to buy toilet paper so they'll stuffnewspaper down the drain and I am spending
money buying, spending for plumbing and Idecided that instead of that, I am going
to supply toilet rolls.
(23:31):
And that really helps with the basichygiene.
So you give them a start, a start thing.
And then the other thing that we do is weprovide a free hot meal every evening.
And the meals are of a good quality orsuch that our chefs, I'm very proud of my
chefs because food finishes like that.
If you don't turn up within an hour, it isgone.
(23:52):
So it is a good warm meal.
And the reason why that is done is ifthere is one warm meal going into a
person,
the likelihood of him going to drugs andalcohol drastically, drastically falls.
When a person is on low income, the lastthing they will spend money on is food.
And then last thing they'll spend moneyon, time on, is cooking food.
(24:15):
Whereas if there's one hot meal going intoa person, my ability to work with them
dramatically, dramatically increases.
So those are like, that's the basicsupport.
Then the other thing is a lot of peoplehave no idea how to maintain.
(24:36):
If you're talking about homelessness andif you're talking about them moving on to
somewhere, you need a basic domesticskills to be able to manage.
So every resident here has to spend twohours of their time a week towards the
running of the house.
So they are on a rotor to clean the commonareas.
They help the chef with the shopping.
(24:57):
They walk alongside the chef.
So if someone from Nigeria wants to haveone of their cuisines, the chef will buy
food from there and cook alongside thatperson.
So the cooking skills, the cleaningskills, believe it or not, they'll sweep
the floor before they've cleaned theworktop and you'll wash the inside of the
(25:18):
plate and not the outside of the plate.
So all of these kind of little things.
How do you use the vacuum cleaner?
how to change a vacuum bag, how toidentify between one that has a vacuum bag
in it and not.
Those kind of things.
We really spend some time equipping thesepeople.
So with a view of them being able to, whenthey do move on, they do know how to do
(25:41):
that.
And then sharing, the people that we workwith, the 90 or 80 % of them will be
moving on to shared accommodation.
So how do you...
respectfully share an accommodation whereyou have common kitchen facilities, common
toilet facilities, things like that.
So really try and work on that.
(26:01):
And then the last but the least, and notthe least, is then support towards
engaging with any kind of employment-related training, language training, and
employment.
So that is like the spectrum of support wetry to provide.
one thing more.
after COVID, there's a huge effort nowthat's put in to support people,
(26:26):
especially the older ones to engage withtechnology and be able to claim Universal
Credit or credits online and to know howto operate a bank account remotely.
And that really seems to make adifference.
Yeah.
So Matt, we in WhizBeach, we do all thatChristina has just done, but we've also
(26:49):
got
much, we've also got a significantproportion of people with health related
problems.
So many of the, many of the, well, infact, the vast majority of the clients
come to us will have a health issue.
So 80 % of our clients have mental healthproblems.
And so we've got an embedded mental healthworker in our service who actually will be
(27:10):
supporting those individuals both toaccess medical treatment as required, but
also the.
I'm doing the first stage of assessment ofpeople with mental health issues.
We work very closely with local GP surgerywho actually come into the hostel where
we're based and we'll provide a type of GPpractice service to individuals within the
(27:36):
hostel and that picks up some of theirphysical health issues.
So we see...
We see that alongside that we also havevarious behavioral problems and we support
people.
So we have trained counselors and we havevarious support from the staff to enable
the clients to manage previous trauma.
(27:58):
Now, one of the other significant thingsfor us is the fact that because we are the
service in the area, we have to meet theneeds of a full range of client groups.
So.
So that means we have to meet the needs ofwomen fleeing domestic violence,
transgender people who've been ejectedfrom their homes, people who are out of
(28:21):
work, as I say, people with enduringmental health problems, people with some
learning difficulties, men fleeing violentsituations.
So we get a massive spectrum.
And so therefore,
The support work that we've got to do veryoften is around supporting them with
managing the trauma that they've gonethrough that has led to their homelessness
and then helping them to move forward outof that situation.
(28:45):
And we can't rely on other services to dothat because there are no other services
in our type of environment.
We've actually created and brought peoplein to enable those services to take place
within the supports that we're providing.
So, yes.
So.
Absolutely what Christina was saying,helping people to feel safe and secure and
(29:07):
warm and well -fed and in a place wherethey can be open and honest and share and
talk.
But then we have to build on top all theseadditional higher level services, if you
like, with health and other types ofthings to actually help them to move
forward.
And just like Christina, one of the mostimportant things is obviously benefits
(29:28):
support to help them get stable in theirfinances now.
but also employment support to help themmove forward.
So it's interesting, Christina, when youwere talking about the qualifications.
So, so Wisbeach is in the bottom fivetowns in the country for its level of
qualification.
And we find that people withqualifications leave Wisbeach and will go
(29:49):
to other places because there's no jobsfor people with degrees or high
qualifications.
So many of the people we're supportingwon't even have a GCSE or a qualification
in their own country.
Some of the people that we find comingfrom other countries are illiterate in
their own language.
So never mind illiterate in English,they're illiterate in Bulgarian, if
(30:10):
they're Bulgarian or in Lithuanian.
So the locality seems to attract becauseof the nature of the work, which is very
physical and land -based, we seem toattract people with very low academic
skills.
And so quite a bit of our work is tryingto support them to develop those skills to
become job ready to move on as well.
So...
(30:30):
Yeah, but there's lots of similarities,very significant amount of similarities
between the work we do.
And in that sense, you know, Keith has amuch bigger challenge than we do.
And because of where we are and because ofthe need and because of the sheer number
of different organizations in the borough,we are able to focus a little bit more.
(30:52):
So for our men's work, we focus on lowskilled, low support client groups, low to
medium support client groups.
So we do have mental health problems, butnot severe to the sense that Keith would
be working with, because there are otherservices we can refer them to if we find
that these are beyond our ability.
(31:12):
And then we also work with women with norecourse to public funds.
That's before the refugee status.
It's a lot through modern slavery routeand escaped in some way or the other.
So we do a specialist work in thatcategory and then we do what we do.
(31:36):
So that is an advantage of being in arural setting over that of Keith because
Keith has to be Jack of many trades whereI can be a slightly more specialized.
And it's interesting, isn't it, Christina?
Because we're seeing in a sense we've gotto provide...
a comprehensive service because we've gotto cover everyone.
(31:59):
Whereas your numbers are so great, there'sno chance at all that you could possibly
cover everyone.
You've got to provide, you're almostproviding services just to try and stop
the breach in the dam that's pouring allthose people in.
And we're in a different situation wherewe've got people who have significant
issues and we need to work with thosesignificant issues to try and to help them
(32:22):
move forward in their life.
It's interesting how
how the different, the urban and the ruralhave created those types of different
spectrums, isn't it?
Because it isn't naturally what you'dnecessarily think, but that's the outcome
of rural versus urban.
How do clients access your services or ifsomeone's finding out that they're going
(32:44):
to be homeless or if they've just landed,got off a plane and they've got nowhere to
go?
It's very difficult.
There's not really, if in an airport, youdon't really see a big poster saying,
If you've got nowhere to stay, phone thisnumber or, you know, if, if your landlord
sends you a letter saying, well, you'vegot until next week and then you're out.
(33:05):
how do people know about your charities?
How do people get put in touch with you?
How can people access the support that youoffer?
So in Whisby, it's comparativestraightforward in the sense that all the
agencies in the town know that we're thehomelessness service.
So therefore.
If somebody goes to the police or as theygo to a doctor surgery, if they go to the
(33:28):
local council, even if they go to thelocal supermarket and say they're
homeless, everybody will point them ourway.
They'll tell them where to go and we'llpoint them in our direction.
And let's face it, the town itself, itsdiameter is not huge.
So somebody could walk, even if they hadto walk from one side of the town to the
other, it's still only probably about fivemiles.
(33:50):
So they could walk to our services andthey can come.
So.
There's that, there's lots of word ofmouth in our area.
And obviously we're very much on socialmedia.
So, so if somebody was to Google in, inwith speech, homelessness services, we
would come up and they would be able tofind us quite quickly.
So if, if they're using their phones, ifthey're talking to other people who they
(34:11):
see, if they communicate with anyone, andindeed we have an outreach team as well.
So if somebody ends up sleeping roughanywhere in the area, we have got people
who are going out, tried to find them.
trying to bring them in, tell them thatthis service is available, this is where
you can get support.
So we can communicate and because the sizeof the town is manageable, we can get the
(34:36):
information across that area prettyquickly.
So half of our referrals are self-referrals.
People just turn up to us and startsharing the difficulties or whatever.
So, and when we ask them, they'll say, afriend told me, I looked on the internet,
you know,
A policeman told me where to go, whateverit was.
(34:56):
So yeah, that's for our market town, whichis a discreet entity in a sense.
Yeah.
How does it work for you, Christina?
Yeah, it's kind of similar because we'vebeen here for so long that almost, but
it's just that the number of referringagencies are numerous.
I think there is about 37 of referringbecause I was just counting where all
(35:19):
referrals came up.
That's why I'm coming up.
37 different places from which we've hadreferrals from.
And then 20 % of our referrals have beenself -referrals, that is people who've
known, who's been through our servicesword of mouth and like that.
And then there's numerous agencies herewho refer people up and HedgePASS is the
(35:45):
main one.
So there are many directories here onwhich we are.
So...
When someone, a person presents themselvesas homeless, then they put in an
application form and it kind ofautomatically comes to us.
And then we have the self -referral.
So we all have a website on which you canput in an application form.
(36:06):
It comes to us and we do a telephoneinterview and we put people on a waiting
list.
And then every week we check our waitinglist to see who was in and who was out.
Yes.
And that's interesting as well, Matt,because although we do have a waiting list
(36:27):
on the whole, if we find somebodyhomeless, we'll almost certainly have the
ability to house on that day.
So, so we can actually bring people intoemergency accommodation.
We've got nine beds of emergencyaccommodation to people coming off the
street.
And although there are times when they'refull, probably 50 % of the time, if
somebody was homeless today, we'd be ableto get them accommodation today.
(36:49):
And if they're...
If they're homeless and tell us they'rehomeless and so on, we'd certainly expect
to be accommodating them within a week.
So that's what I mean by the accommodationoffer that we've got is sufficient to meet
the need locally.
We can actually get people off the street.
Now, continuously people are becominghomeless for all sorts of reasons, but
(37:10):
we've got the capacity at the minute toactually meet the need.
And because our area is not particularlygrowing, so other parts of the country are
growing, our area...
There is not huge amounts of housing goingup in our area.
We can meet that throughput.
As I say, the challenge that we've got iswhere they go once you leave.
As in Christina sounds like she's gotsimilar things, but I think she's got much
(37:32):
greater problems because our average stay,we can normally move somebody on within a
year.
Whereas Christina was talking about twoyears.
Yeah.
So we.
And, and we have a waiting list of.
between 15 to 20 on every given day andpeople literally ring us who are on the
(37:55):
waiting list.
You said I'm on the waiting list, how farup am I?
And our answer is we only have a vacancywhen someone moves out.
And it's really sad.
We really are overwhelmed.
So given the...
different nature of the challenges thatyour organizations face in either the
(38:19):
rural or the urban context.
Where would you hope your charity would bein about five years time?
If you had a magic ball or a magic wandthat you could possibly wave, what are
some of the key things you would like tohave improved or got better or whatever?
(38:43):
Where do you see yourselves in about fiveyears?
Can I say something else before that?
Yes, go.
Before we go there.
I think one of the biggest challenges iswe are here assuming that we expand and
the government is going to pick up thebill for it because the money for running
this place basically comes from housingbenefits.
(39:06):
And we are not a commission service asopposed to Keath.
So there is funding for support.
we privately raise from other trusts.
So that's an additional job that I have tokeep the show on the ground.
So the local authorities here arecompletely overwhelmed.
(39:26):
So even if we can somehow, I'm taking aprivate mortgage through Charity Bank and
buying these properties and putting the,so in a way, aiding the local government
to do that.
But in spite of that,
the local government's ability to come upwith a sheer number of housing benefits
payments that are due is, it is limited.
(39:51):
It's not a never ending pause and we knowthat.
And when interest rates went up, myinterest rates went up from 0 .75 % to 6
.5.
my God, where is the difference comingfrom?
And we just pulled through and glad thatit's stable now.
It's not going up anymore.
Do you know?
finances is a huge, huge issue.
(40:16):
So ideal position in five years time,there was some dramatic change in
surroundings and people didn't need us,would have been the most ideal outcome
that we could have.
But we are hoping for my charity'sperspective, I am hugely now reliant on
(40:36):
mortgages and with recent years.
instability in the market.
You can see how unstable that can make acharity like mine when interest rates goes
up, your output goes up, but your housingbenefits rates are not going to go up.
So being stable and sustainable and not betossed about by the market forces would be
(41:04):
which is what I am going to concentrateover the next five years and increasing
capacity on that basis.
So that does mean having a balance betweenraising grants as opposed to taking
mortgages, but also with everything havean element of self -help built in and not
(41:28):
prepared to not be wholly dependent onlocal councils and handouts almost.
I would think, 10 years ago, 15 years ago,the ideas of social enterprises were
fledged and a lot of us went into it andKeith was in it and I was in it.
And then suddenly it has gone out offashion.
(41:49):
So I really hope that social enterpriseswill come back into the market.
Two things, because it gives charitieslike us an ability to gain some of our own
income.
And then the other thing is gives anopportunity for our client groups to gain
(42:09):
a skill and then move on from us.
So, you know, Keith briefly touched on thefact that, you know, keeping food prices
low, keeping this low, keeping that low,and then you're basically eradicating
local businesses here.
There is what do we have in production inthis country?
Absolutely nothing.
(42:29):
So I think for people who are listening,
Buy locally, even if it's that 10p moreexpensive.
If you're buying something from a socialenterprise, you are maybe spending 10
pounds, 10p more on whatever you aredoing, but help charities like us.
(42:52):
Help us to deliver your service and helpus to earn our own living, because it is
insustainable to expect.
the local councils or the centralgovernment to keep on producing money for
this insatiable need of people who areturning up at outdoors.
Some really good thoughts there.
(43:13):
Thanks, Christina.
Keith, what about you?
So, so, just following on from whereChristina is, so where she was mentioning
about how social enterprises, it's goingout at the minute, but for us, that's not
the case.
So, so for instance, we're still beingable to run.
social enterprise in our area.
So we run a community center and thatbrings in some money for us to operate
(43:38):
services.
We've higher out some of our space.
So whereas Christina's shorter spaceactually in Wisp Beach compared to Newham,
house prices are very low.
Rental prices are not that much loweractually, but the actual purchase price
for property is significantly lower.
(43:58):
So we were able to buy quite a bigproperty when we bought our accommodation.
So there's actually space.
We've just created recently an art galleryin our property and the art gallery is
paying us money to rent space.
So we're getting space from that.
We have a cookery school and that includesprivate cookery lessons for individuals
and they pay for that cookery lessons andthat actually brings money in.
(44:22):
So we're still generating income fromsocial enterprises.
And absolutely what Christine was sayingabout...
If the listeners were prepared to engagewith social enterprise and buy from those,
that's a massive help because as she said,it's all about self help.
Then we're actually earning the incomethat will allow us to carry out the
services we're doing.
That is so much better than giving us aground.
(44:44):
Be a customer, work with us, help us toearn our own income.
Absolutely.
And that's the ideal, isn't it?
Because we want to be in control of ourown destiny.
We don't want to be...
We don't want to teach, if you like, oneof the things that we're certainly for
ferry all the way through and my knowledgeof Christina's organization is the same.
In a sense, we don't want to become thebeggar on behalf of a homeless person.
(45:09):
So we don't want to go around begging formoney so that the homeless person doesn't.
We'd much rather model what we're tryingto say to them, which is work, earn it, go
out and work and earn it.
That's exactly what we want to do, whichis why the social enterprise model is so
important.
So.
So we will be looking certainly over thenext five years to continue developing the
social enterprises.
(45:29):
We've got perhaps developing some new onesand we are looking at some interesting
ones.
So one of the things I would love to seein the next five years would be an
increase in dental services because wecannot get our clients into a dentist at
all.
So less than 1 % of our clients have gotaccess to a dentist.
(45:50):
And many of our clients end up at A &E andhave to go through incredible pay that
they have before they can get dentalsurgery and dental treatment.
So one of the things I'm actually startingto investigate is starting a dental social
enterprise.
I was going to say that to you.
It's very capital, I had looked at it.
(46:13):
It's very capital intensive because of theequipment that is needed, but it's one of
the most profitable you can have.
And usually the practice manager is apartner in a dental practice.
So if you can get two dentists and webecome as a charity, the practice manager
providing the business, we can make a cut.
I had actually done the business plan onthat.
(46:36):
And the building fell through.
So I wasn't able to pull it through.
So here you go, Matt, we'll do a bit ofjoint working here.
So Christina, you can send me a businessplan.
I've got the accommodation.
I still see, NHS was supposed to give up abuilding and we were going to have a
(46:57):
nursery on the ground floor and a dentalsurgery on the further end of it.
But in the last minute they took thebuilding back on.
I shall see if I still got it.
We had done plans and everything.
I'm not sure.
I was just literally heartbroken becauseit was nearly one 18 months work, you
know, then after that, someone pulls therug over from under your foot and you just
(47:20):
feel like, okay, chuck this, had enough.
Well, you see, this highlights perfectlythe difference between rural and urban.
So in the rural area, actually accessingthe space, we can access the space.
So we've got opportunities, we've gotspace, we can do that.
What we haven't got is the services.
So we have to create the service orencourage those services to be developed
(47:43):
ourselves because the services aren'tavailable.
So currently, for example, in ourcommunity center that we run, the NHS
rents space off us to deliver the diabeteseye clinic.
So they're actually using our building todeliver their services.
And as I say, the local GP surgery comesinto our building to deliver services to
(48:04):
homeless people, whatever situation thosehomeless people are in.
they're meeting those needs.
The mental health worker is based withinour service, doing work with the various
clients that we do.
So we have the space for a dental surgery.
What we can't find is a dentist that wouldwork with us.
(48:24):
So we're struggling to do that.
So we've actually managed to find a semi-retired dentist who said he would be
interested in working alongside.
And he's even got a plan of how we can getthe equipment and so on.
So that's why we're now developing it.
And interestingly, I've shared it with ourlocal health services and they're all
telling us, go for it.
(48:44):
They would really be pleased if wedeveloped a social enterprise dentist.
So we'll see if we can do that.
Shilak, it was an idea about six yearsago.
Fine, well, so we'll see what we can do.
So yeah, so for us, it's about trying toget that comprehensive set of services.
(49:07):
that are unavailable if we're not around.
And what we're starting to see is it's notjust unavailable to homeless people, but
it's unavailable to the community as well.
So some of what we're trying to developmight start with supporting homeless
people, but then it grows beyond that.
It actually starts to help the poorer inthe community who are not homeless, but in
danger of becoming homeless and graduallyyou try and start to influence the
(49:30):
community as a whole.
So.
So, yeah, so if we're moving forward, it'sthat development of services and actually
providing people with services, which ingeneral in cities are available and yet in
the rural area.
And just to contrast the figures, 2012, wehad a turnover of about 1 .6 million for
(49:51):
our social enterprises.
And now it is under £100 ,000 and it'smainly went because of lack of premises.
because our warehouses had the land onwhich our warehouses were given planning
permission for posh flats.
So overnight it went.
And if you want to access this, if youwant local people to access services, you
(50:14):
have to have a presence in the city wherepeople are.
And then it is the buildings that does thekilling.
We had a huge...
Clothes collection and recycling businesswent because there was no sorting place,
just had to close it.
(50:35):
We started plastic recycling, collectingsecondhand hard plastics, bailing it and
sending to China.
Warehouse went, business went.
Furniture recycling, warehouse went,business went.
So, yeah, very hard.
(50:57):
Yes.
And so just comparative to that, so oursocial enterprises would be, so five years
ago would be earning about 200 ,000, we'reprobably up to about 300 ,000 now.
So it's on the lower level, but we'reseeing gradual growth, whereas Christina,
yours is up and down, yours was massivelyhigher than ours and then it crashed and
(51:18):
stuff like that.
So yes, we don't tend to see the sameswings, the massive variation that you're
seeing.
Well, Christina and Keith, it's been avery interesting discussion, really
interesting to see some of thesimilarities and indeed the differences
between homelessness and homelessnesscharities working in rural and urban
(51:42):
areas.
So Keith Smith from The Ferry Project andChristina Isaac from Just Homes.
Thank you so much for joining us here onthe Rural Homelessness Podcast.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Bye.
Thank you.
Bye bye.
thank you as well for listening and dotune in again for another episode of the
Rural Homelessness Podcast.
Thank you.
(52:03):
Thank you for listening to the RuralHomelessness Podcast brought to you by The
Ferry Project.
Visit our website on www .ferryproject.org .uk.
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