July 31, 2024 • 31 mins
In this episode of the Rural Homelessness Podcast, Matt McChlery discusses how modular housing can help address rural homelessness. He is joined by Lewis Herbert, the manager of Allia Future Homes, and Daniel Renn, the Allia Future Homes Housing Development Lead. They explain that modular housing involves constructing sections of a building in a factory and then transporting them to the site for assembly. Modular housing offers benefits such as speed, cost-effectiveness, quality control, sustainability, and flexibility. It can be used in various sectors, including housing for the homeless. The challenges of modular housing include overcoming the stigma and lack of awareness, navigating building codes and regulations, and transportation logistics. The hope for the future of modular housing is mainstream acceptance, supportive policies, innovation, and wider use to address the housing shortage and homelessness crisis.
Websites
Takeaways
- Modular housing involves constructing sections of a building in a factory and then transporting them to the site for assembly.
- Modular housing offers benefits such as speed, cost-effectiveness, quality control, sustainability, and flexibility.
- Modular housing can be used in various sectors, including housing for the homeless.
- Challenges of modular housing include overcoming stigma and lack of awareness, navigating building codes and regulations, and transportation logistics.
- The hope for the future of modular housing is mainstream acceptance, supportive policies, innovation, and wider use to address the housing shortage and homelessness crisis.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to the Rural Homelessness Podcast
01:05 Introduction to Alia Future Homes
06:57 Problems and Challenges in the Current Housing Situation
11:43 Benefits of Modular Housing
13:09 Affordability of Modular Homes
15:06 Modular Housing for the Homeless
21:11 Use of Modular Housing in Jubilee Place
24:05 Modular Housing for Rural Homelessness
26:14 Challenges and Hopes for the Future of Modular Housing
29:10 Call for Support and Collaboration
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
This is the Rural Homelessness Podcast,where we discuss the important issues
around rural homelessness, hear from thoseaffected by it, and offer some solutions.
Brought to you by the award -winninghomelessness charity, The Ferry Project.
Welcome to the Rural Homelessness Podcast.
(00:28):
Well, hello and welcome to this episode ofthe Rural Homelessness Podcast.
I'm your host,
Matt McChlery thanks so much for clickingover and joining us today.
Now on today's show we're going to betalking about how modular housing can help
to address rural homelessness.
And I'm joined on the show by LewisHerbert, who is the manager of Allia
(00:53):
Future Homes, and also Daniel Renn, who isthe Allia Future Homes Housing Development
Lead.
Let's welcome them to the show.
Well, hello, Louis.
Welcome to the Rural Homelessness Podcast.
Hi.
And hi, Daniel.
Thanks for joining us today.
(01:13):
Thanks.
Good to be here.
And so today we are speaking about modularhousing and how that kind of all fits in
with rural homelessness.
And of course, this is something you guyslive and breathe.
So before we, before we launch deeper intothe questions,
(01:34):
let's just start off by explaining, alittle bit more about Allia and Allia
future homes and, and what they do.
So Lewis, can you tell us more aboutAllia?
So Allia was set up by my boss, MartinClark and a guy called Tim Jones.
It's based in Cambridgeshire.
(01:54):
It runs business centers for smallbusinesses, and charities.
It also raises funds.
So it has a.
finance arm and that basically works themoney markets particularly for housing
associations but also creates bonds forcharities and has helped quite a lot of
(02:16):
charities locally.
It recycles the surplus, it doesn't haveshareholders and it's committed to helping
social enterprises like the ferry projecttackling inequality and a whole range of
issues developing managers of charities.
Climate Change Green Energy.
It's a forward thinking company.
(02:37):
And how does Allia Future Homes fit intothis sort of umbrella organization?
So Martin Clark's a brave soul and hebelieved in creating supported modular
home communities.
So he was on the lookout for land fromabout 2018.
(03:01):
before creating the first communityassisted by Christ the Redeemer Church on
Newmarket Road in Cambridge, where he wasable to work with them as the landowner
and with Jimmy's Cambridge, the version offerry project that does most work in
Cambridge for homeless people and formerrough sleepers.
(03:25):
And that effectively created the firstcommunity.
Along with my able partner, Daniel Wren,we're now a team of two, supported by
Allia.
Martin then created with Keith Smith andthe Ferry Project a really amazing scheme
(03:52):
in Jubilee Place, which is six homes.
It enables people who were previouslyrough sleeping or homeless.
into what we would call transitionalaccommodation.
And then we'd hope that they move on topermanent rental homes.
because effectively what we're trying todo is help people through a period of
(04:13):
recovery who can then, rebuild their livesand be independent again.
Hmm.
Hmm.
Really good.
And just so our listeners are aware, we'vealready started talking about modular
housing.
Could you explain, Daniel, what is modularhousing and how is it different to regular
(04:37):
housing?
Sure.
It's actually pretty simple.
Modular housing involves constructingsections or modules of a building in a
factory environment and then transportingthose modules to the site for assembly,
whereas traditional homes are usuallyentirely built on site.
(05:01):
So would people kind of picture this aslike being a caravan home or is that
something slightly different?
It's different.
It's higher quality.
It's more like you can imagine it as likeplaying Lego for adults, but high quality
Lego.
(05:21):
So you have many, many options.
You can build on the ground.
You can have...
new stories on existing buildings.
And most of the time you don't even spotfrom the outside that it's modular.
Once you build a facade on or a roof ontop.
So yeah, now it's, it's quite different tocolor and housing.
(05:44):
Okay.
And because it's mostly built in a factoryand not on site, are you able to get
planning permission for things like thator mortgages or how does that work?
Yeah, you're able to get those.
But it's not easy.
So the modular market is quite new, Iwould say, at least for like
(06:09):
certifications or like getting insurancesor financing on those homes.
But there are ways to do it.
So there is a certification called BOPERS.
And that certification tells you thesehomes are built to a quality which will
last at least 60 years.
And therefore you'll get a mortgage onthat, for example.
(06:31):
Right.
Okay.
that's interesting.
We'll dig into modular housing a littlebit more later on.
Louis, let's, let's come back to you.
We've got this modular housing model thatyou guys are kind of championing.
But that obviously highlights that there'sproblems with the regular housing.
(06:57):
method.
What are some of the problems orchallenges that you see that are facing
the current housing situation in Britain?
Well, we're in a housing emergency.
We haven't been building enough affordablerent homes for most of my lifetime and I'm
(07:17):
69.
So since the mid 70s, there's been afailure to build affordable rent homes.
There's been lack of government supportfor council homes and there is just a
dearth of housing and that applies inrural areas, it applies in Cambridge and
London.
We've got a national crisis.
(07:39):
I mean the figures are appalling.
We've got 120 ,000 households currently intemporary accommodation, like a family of
five that's got two rooms in a guest housewhich isn't even in their home community.
That's over 300 ,000 people in oftensubstandard temporary homes.
(08:02):
And yeah, we've got wider challenges.
We've got 130 ,000 young people who areeither homeless or they're at risk of
being homeless.
They're sofa surfing.
They've not got a home.
And as people listening to this willrealize, having a home is actually a...
(08:23):
foundation before you can actually feellike you're a human being.
Rough sleeping rose 28 % last year andit's been a 70 % rise in the number of
massively vulnerable women rough sleepers.
So I think the problem Matt is we've gotan emergency that's been stoked up,
(08:44):
particularly over the last 14 years wherethe only focus seems to have been on
people who can afford to buy a home.
and it's 40 years, it will be 20 yearsbefore we get on top of this problem.
And so that's why we've got a focus map onthe opportunity of efficient modular
(09:06):
homes, low energy, really well designed,because we will continue to need what we
call not temporary but transitional homesfor at least two decades and then people
can move on.
into better homes.
So we need to see a government, and we'rein an election year, we need to see a
(09:28):
government, and people might know a bitmore about who that government is when
this is shared, who is actually going toinvest and ensure that we start that 20
-year building program now.
People are in real dire straits, childrenare not getting the kind of environment
(09:48):
if they're being moved from one piece oftemporary accommodation to another.
And that's one of the possible sort ofbroader sort of national solutions to the
problem.
But what are some other ways that we cantry and solve or address these problems
and challenges you've just highlighted?
So I think that there definitely needs tobe a targeting of support for homeless
(10:13):
charities like the ferry project, like thelight project.
in Peterborough, Jimmy's in Cambridge.
So we need government to target help atthe front line.
We also need the government to do what'scalled sorting out the local housing
allowance so that rents vary remarkablybetween Chatteris and Wisbech Peterborough
(10:43):
and Cambridge.
The rent levels just need to then be takeninto account in the benefits that people
get.
So if somebody's out of work or they needto get support, that should include the
full cost of being able to rent somewhere.
So there's a whole package of changesneeded and it's not cheap, but we're
(11:06):
talking about people who are living inpoverty.
We're talking about people who are forcedto sleep in tents and sleep rough.
the very people that Ferry Project triesto help.
We've got to help the people and they'vegot to be supported.
Thank you.
So Daniel, what are some of the benefitsthen of this modular housing model?
(11:31):
How can this help as well as be part ofthis solution to the problem Lewis has
just highlighted?
Yeah, there are several benefits.
try to break it down to the biggest ones.
Speed.
The construction is faster due tosimultaneous side work and module building
(11:53):
in a factory.
The cost effectiveness through reducedwaste and labor costs.
The quality I mentioned earlier, it'seasier to control the quality in a factory
to ensure high standards than theenvironmental impact.
It's more sustainable with less materialwaste and the ability to include energy
(12:17):
efficient features is great.
And then my favorite benefit, theflexibility.
It's easily customizable to meet specificneeds and suitable for various types of
buildings.
And like mentioned earlier, it's basicallyjust like playing Lego.
(12:38):
We were saying that some of the problemsare the government on building affordable
housing, which really prices a lot ofpeople out of the market and therefore
they can't afford to buy a home.
So then they have to rent or then orwhatever situation they didn't find
themselves in.
So speaking about affordability then howaffordable are modular homes in comparison
(13:04):
to regular bricks and mortar houses?
It's really hard to compare.
It's dependent on the project you have athand, the scale of it.
Just like the modular builder you choose,for example.
(13:25):
So there's not only one modularmanufacturer out there.
There are several, and then they arebuilding to different standards or they
have different topics they focus on.
The one modular builder is reallysustainable.
Whereas the other one is reallyaffordable, but it's not like super
environmental friendly.
So it's coming down to what manufacturingyou want for your project.
(13:50):
That's a part of what idea future homes isdoing.
So we are there to offer the expertise toour clients and tell them, Hey, that might
be a good manufacturer for you.
And then just comparing modular withtraditional.
It's not a one -to -one comparison.
(14:10):
Modular can serve, for example, differentsites.
If you have a temporary site for 10 years,modular can serve that site and then move
the homes somewhere else.
Whereas traditional can't do that.
So it's hard to compare, but at the end,from my experience, so my background is
(14:32):
working with a modular manufacturer inGermany.
We are cheaper.
and especially for the running costs.
So there are modular schemes for homelesspeople, which has energy bills of less
than five pounds per week.
And as we look at our energy bill, I'mpretty certain they are higher.
(14:53):
So it's hard to compare, but in the end,I'm pretty sure that modular homes can be
the better solution depending on theproject you want to have.
And the, so Allia Future Homes then, areyou kind of primarily focused on housing
(15:15):
the homeless or is that just one of themany strands that you work on?
Our focus is on homelessness.
Okay.
And then for the benefit of our listenersas well.
So your focus is homelessness and helpingpeople to escape.
the cycle of poverty, which is fantastic.
(15:37):
But when we talking about modular homes ingeneral, are modular homes just things to
help homeless people or can anybody lookat investing in a modular home as an
alternative to a normal house?
Anyway, I can do that.
(15:57):
So modular serves pretty much all thesectors.
Whatever is scalable.
is good for modular.
Offices, schools, homeless communities, orif you think about tiny homes, which is
like, again, Eastern Europe right now, alot of people buy themselves a tiny home
(16:22):
and put it somewhere next to the woods,for example.
That's modular as well.
So modular is just a big word for
construction which happens in a factoryenvironment first and then get on site can
be residential homes where you have liketwo semi -detached houses or an office
(16:45):
building with like 500 offices in.
So it serves pretty much every sector.
But we think that modular is a greatsolution for these supported homeless
communities because it's scalable.
It's easy, it's fast, it's cost effective.
You can serve many different sites.
And that's why we found that we want towork with modular homes for creating these
(17:08):
communities.
That's great.
And what, because it's not a traditionalbuilding method really, and it's still
fairly new in the UK.
What are some of the challenges you facewhen trying to use or
up or even sort of spread the idea ofmodular housing in the UK and then in the
(17:35):
housing sector.
What challenges do you face there?
I think the biggest challenge right now isthe perception of the modular market due
to the latest failing of big players likeBT Passive or Ilke Homes and overcoming
that stigma and lack of awareness aboutthe modular homes.
(17:55):
for us like a teaching mission that we tryto fulfill through our showcase projects
and show the people, hey, it's good.
If you do it good, it's gonna be a goodsolution for that project.
But there are other challenges likenavigating building codes, regulations,
financing, insurances, which are notadapted to the modular method yet.
(18:20):
I'm hopeful about the future.
And then simple things like
transporting the homes to the side.
If you're, for example, in a really densecity and as mentioned, these homes are
already finished.
So you need to find the right street toget the homes there.
(18:40):
So yeah, there are different challenges,but the biggest one is just the education
for people about the modular market andthat it's a great solution.
And so where can people educate themselvesabout modular housing?
listening to their podcast here.
That's brilliant.
(19:01):
thank you, Daniel.
That's wonderful.
Lewis, coming back to you, how did youcome to be involved with the ferry
project?
So my first involvement was I was thefirst, Cambridge recycling officer.
So, and that started a bit before Keith,actually, it started 34 years ago, but I
(19:22):
was aware.
around the year 2000 of what Keith wasdoing with the ferry project because he
was really strong on reuse and all of thebenefits that gives of creating
interesting work for people who arerecovering from problems of recycling
furniture to people who really need it.
(19:43):
So that was my involvement for all fromabout 2000 to about 2010 I was involved on
and off in different ways.
And, but meanwhile, Martin Clark, ourillustrious boss, had been sort of working
with Keith on the potential to have acommunity.
(20:05):
So Martin set up the first one and it wasfinished in 2020 in Cambridge and was
immediate, I think, talking to Keith andalong with the woman, the amazing Rebecca
Howard, who helped the whole project.
was on the lookout for a site.
So we worked with Keith, we worked with anoutfit Places for People.
(20:29):
They had a small piece of land, as Danielsaid.
There's a lot of advantages of Modular andone of them is to make uses of sites like
Jubilee Place.
So, yeah, Allia got its hard hat on, itssteel cap boots and got to work helping
Keith with new meaning.
(20:50):
another lovely social enterprise based inWaterbeach who make these homes that as
Daniel said last at least 60 years andquite a lot of work was put in and six
homes and a new community was created andthat was opened two years ago.
(21:11):
And how has the ferry project used modularhousing effectively in this Jubilee place
that you've helped them to establish?
Well, these communities we are passionateabout, and we're currently working on one
of 24 homes in Chelmsford.
The most important thing then, Matt, isthat there's an underestimated power of
(21:36):
people who've got a shared life experienceliving.
together.
So in addition to the direct support fromthe ferry project, this community of 25
square meter homes, they're easy forpeople who've been in difficult times, who
may have been in more like hostelaccommodation to call their own.
(21:59):
So a nice living area, decent kitchenfacilities, shower, washing machine and a
quiet bedroom at the back.
It gives people the space to recover.
So we call them move on accommodation,transitional.
They will have already made some progress,maybe at Octavia Place, Octavia House.
(22:25):
And this is in a way a reward for the factthat they're making progress.
So it's a halfway house before then movingon into places of their own.
and then freeing up a place for somebodyelse who needs it.
And it's also helping them to adapt withthose extra skills and things that when
(22:48):
you're in the more supported environment,you might have had a lot of help, but now
there's less of that support.
Yeah.
And I think what happens there is thathousing is often the last thing that
people lose.
They might have, for various reasons,their lives hit a
the buffers.
(23:10):
They may have then suffered addictionproblems probably as much after
something's gone wrong.
So housing is often the last thing theylose and this is that people rebuild their
self -respect, they rebuild relationshipswith their families, with their friends.
(23:31):
They're then in a position just to rebootbut they do need time and space.
The homes are actually designed to be partof a community with a veranda that opens
out to their neighbors.
It is social, but they similarly, they canshut the door and have peace and quiet.
And they don't get that if you're inshared accommodation.
(23:55):
thank you, Lewis.
How can modular housing help those who areexperiencing rural homelessness in
particular?
Obviously,
The focus of our podcast is sort of morespecifically on rural homelessness because
the ferry project is located in such arural area.
So how can modular housing help people inthe rural situation?
(24:20):
We'll take whatever sites we can.
Often we're looking at larger towns andcities than Wisbech, but it's sometimes
forgotten just exactly how
difficult the homeless crisis is.
They would tend to be better locatedwithin an existing settlement rather than
(24:43):
outside, although mayors do a very goodjob around the country with rural -based
communities.
So I think it needs to be a site wherepeople have got a shop nearby, they've got
a bus service, they feel part of acommunity.
It's often good if it's
(25:03):
of a church, so that's why we focus ongenerous churches who've got a spare piece
of land.
So it's just as big a challenge.
And I think we've got a hiddenhomelessness crisis in rural areas.
We've sometimes got councils that don't doas much as they need to, and they often
(25:24):
have poor information.
So councils are only really obliged tohelp people who've got children,
households with children.
and single people get badly neglected.
And so rough sleeping is only the edge ofa huge iceberg with a lot of people that
might be just finding a bed for the night.
(25:45):
And the worst part of it is if they end uphaving to sleep rough.
And in winter, some of them die becausethe temperature is just so bad and their
living conditions are so appalling thattheir health deteriorates.
So that's why we believe that
supported communities have got just as biga part to play in smaller towns right
(26:08):
across England and Wales and Scotland.
Daniel, have you got anything to add tothat?
Yeah, a couple of points.
Lewis covered most of it very good, but Ithink there are some benefits which are
not only applied to the rural part, butwhich are just a big benefit from people
(26:33):
experiencing homelessness everywhere.
The biggest one is the rapid deployment.
So we can build so much faster thantraditional homes.
And those people who are sleeping roughevery single night, they don't have any
time to wait.
And so you want to provide them a roofover their head as soon as possible.
(26:53):
And with that quick construction process,you also provide timely housing, which is
essential.
Same with the affordability I mentionedearlier.
Not only is it a cost -effective buildingmethod, which makes housing more
affordable, but also by building it
more sustainable, it reduces the utilitycosts in the end for the residents and
(27:17):
sure they have some support from thegovernment, but every penny they can save
is a valuable penny.
And also the scalability, so you can scaleit for individual or community needs and
the adaptability, so it's suitable forvarious rural landscapes and requirements
(27:40):
and
We can use sites which others can't bebuilt on.
So yeah, there are so many benefits tothat.
Yeah, there really are.
And so what are your hopes for the futureof modular housing?
Daniel, we'll start with you and thenwe'll come to Lewis.
Okay.
(28:01):
I think my biggest hope is the mainstreamacceptance and the recognition of modular
housing for its quality and efficiency.
And then I'm also looking forward to moresupportive policies and more regulations
that facilitate modular construction ingeneral.
(28:21):
I'm hopeful about the continued innovationin that sector, about other construction
techniques and materials, and also thepromotion of the green technologies and
energy efficient design.
Modular is already very good at that,but...
(28:42):
I'm pretty sure there will be moreinnovation, especially in that sector.
And of course, the wider use of modularhousing to address the housing shortage
and get people off the street as soon aspossible.
Thank you.
Lewis, how about you?
What are your hopes for the future?
We want to hear from people who might belistening to this and who are prompted to
(29:05):
help the ferry project or other homelesscharities.
Allia Future of Homes fills a gap becausethere is very little support as Keith
Smith knows and the team at Ferry Projectknow.
You're living on a shoestring budgetoften.
So we're looking for sites and we'd bereally keen if a site can be found in
(29:31):
Whist Beach to help the Ferry Projectbuild its second community.
We're looking for the government to helpus because this is a tragedy, the lives
that are being damaged.
So yeah, we're here to work with people intowns and cities across the country and
(29:52):
rural areas away from there.
If people think there's a need and theycan work with an organization.
So we do need a homeless charity that's atthe center who will
effectively provide that ongoing supportand run the homes that we're very happy to
(30:13):
help build.
And we just know that there's a gap there,Matt, and it's a tragedy, but it's one
that there's practical solutions for.
And these smaller homes, particularly forpeople who are getting used to living on
their own and re -establishing lives,really fit the bill.
(30:36):
Thanks, Lewis.
And for the benefit of our listeners, wewill be putting a link to the Allia Future
Home's website in our show notes of thisepisode.
So if you want to click over there to findout more about them or get in contact with
Lewis or Daniel, you can do that quiteeasily by just scrolling down to the
bottom of this podcast, wherever you'relistening.
(30:57):
And you should find the show notes thereand the link to their site.
Well, that just leaves you to say LewisHerbert and Daniel Renz, thank you so much
for joining us on this episode of theRural Homelessness Podcast.
Thank you for joining me.
Thank you, Matt.
Thank you, Brian Moss.
And thank you as well for listening tothis episode.
(31:18):
Don't forget that the Rural HomelessnessPodcast comes out twice a month on the 1st
and the 15th.
So we'll be back really soon with anotherepisode where we'll be discussing rural
homelessness.
We look forward to the pleasure of yourcompany.
then, goodbye.
This is the Rural Homelessness Podcast,where we discuss the important issues
around rural homelessness, hear from thoseaffected by it, and offer some solutions.
Brought to you by the award -winninghomelessness charity, The Ferry Project.
Welcome to the Rural Homelessness Podcast.
(00:28):
Well, hello and welcome to this episode ofthe Rural Homelessness Podcast.
I'm your host,
Matt McChlery thanks so much for clickingover and joining us today.
Now on today's show we're going to betalking about how modular housing can help
to address rural homelessness.
And I'm joined on the show by LewisHerbert, who is the manager of Allia
(00:53):
Future Homes, and also Daniel Renn, who isthe Allia Future Homes Housing Development
Lead.
Let's welcome them to the show.
Well, hello, Louis.
Welcome to the Rural Homelessness Podcast.
Hi.
And hi, Daniel.
Thanks for joining us today.
(01:13):
Thanks.
Good to be here.
And so today we are speaking about modularhousing and how that kind of all fits in
with rural homelessness.
And of course, this is something you guyslive and breathe.
So before we, before we launch deeper intothe questions,
(01:34):
let's just start off by explaining, alittle bit more about Allia and Allia
future homes and, and what they do.
So Lewis, can you tell us more aboutAllia?
So Allia was set up by my boss, MartinClark and a guy called Tim Jones.
It's based in Cambridgeshire.
(01:54):
It runs business centers for smallbusinesses, and charities.
It also raises funds.
So it has a.
finance arm and that basically works themoney markets particularly for housing
associations but also creates bonds forcharities and has helped quite a lot of
(02:16):
charities locally.
It recycles the surplus, it doesn't haveshareholders and it's committed to helping
social enterprises like the ferry projecttackling inequality and a whole range of
issues developing managers of charities.
Climate Change Green Energy.
It's a forward thinking company.
(02:37):
And how does Allia Future Homes fit intothis sort of umbrella organization?
So Martin Clark's a brave soul and hebelieved in creating supported modular
home communities.
So he was on the lookout for land fromabout 2018.
(03:01):
before creating the first communityassisted by Christ the Redeemer Church on
Newmarket Road in Cambridge, where he wasable to work with them as the landowner
and with Jimmy's Cambridge, the version offerry project that does most work in
Cambridge for homeless people and formerrough sleepers.
(03:25):
And that effectively created the firstcommunity.
Along with my able partner, Daniel Wren,we're now a team of two, supported by
Allia.
Martin then created with Keith Smith andthe Ferry Project a really amazing scheme
(03:52):
in Jubilee Place, which is six homes.
It enables people who were previouslyrough sleeping or homeless.
into what we would call transitionalaccommodation.
And then we'd hope that they move on topermanent rental homes.
because effectively what we're trying todo is help people through a period of
(04:13):
recovery who can then, rebuild their livesand be independent again.
Hmm.
Hmm.
Really good.
And just so our listeners are aware, we'vealready started talking about modular
housing.
Could you explain, Daniel, what is modularhousing and how is it different to regular
(04:37):
housing?
Sure.
It's actually pretty simple.
Modular housing involves constructingsections or modules of a building in a
factory environment and then transportingthose modules to the site for assembly,
whereas traditional homes are usuallyentirely built on site.
(05:01):
So would people kind of picture this aslike being a caravan home or is that
something slightly different?
It's different.
It's higher quality.
It's more like you can imagine it as likeplaying Lego for adults, but high quality
Lego.
(05:21):
So you have many, many options.
You can build on the ground.
You can have...
new stories on existing buildings.
And most of the time you don't even spotfrom the outside that it's modular.
Once you build a facade on or a roof ontop.
So yeah, now it's, it's quite different tocolor and housing.
(05:44):
Okay.
And because it's mostly built in a factoryand not on site, are you able to get
planning permission for things like thator mortgages or how does that work?
Yeah, you're able to get those.
But it's not easy.
So the modular market is quite new, Iwould say, at least for like
(06:09):
certifications or like getting insurancesor financing on those homes.
But there are ways to do it.
So there is a certification called BOPERS.
And that certification tells you thesehomes are built to a quality which will
last at least 60 years.
And therefore you'll get a mortgage onthat, for example.
(06:31):
Right.
Okay.
that's interesting.
We'll dig into modular housing a littlebit more later on.
Louis, let's, let's come back to you.
We've got this modular housing model thatyou guys are kind of championing.
But that obviously highlights that there'sproblems with the regular housing.
(06:57):
method.
What are some of the problems orchallenges that you see that are facing
the current housing situation in Britain?
Well, we're in a housing emergency.
We haven't been building enough affordablerent homes for most of my lifetime and I'm
(07:17):
69.
So since the mid 70s, there's been afailure to build affordable rent homes.
There's been lack of government supportfor council homes and there is just a
dearth of housing and that applies inrural areas, it applies in Cambridge and
London.
We've got a national crisis.
(07:39):
I mean the figures are appalling.
We've got 120 ,000 households currently intemporary accommodation, like a family of
five that's got two rooms in a guest housewhich isn't even in their home community.
That's over 300 ,000 people in oftensubstandard temporary homes.
(08:02):
And yeah, we've got wider challenges.
We've got 130 ,000 young people who areeither homeless or they're at risk of
being homeless.
They're sofa surfing.
They've not got a home.
And as people listening to this willrealize, having a home is actually a...
(08:23):
foundation before you can actually feellike you're a human being.
Rough sleeping rose 28 % last year andit's been a 70 % rise in the number of
massively vulnerable women rough sleepers.
So I think the problem Matt is we've gotan emergency that's been stoked up,
(08:44):
particularly over the last 14 years wherethe only focus seems to have been on
people who can afford to buy a home.
and it's 40 years, it will be 20 yearsbefore we get on top of this problem.
And so that's why we've got a focus map onthe opportunity of efficient modular
(09:06):
homes, low energy, really well designed,because we will continue to need what we
call not temporary but transitional homesfor at least two decades and then people
can move on.
into better homes.
So we need to see a government, and we'rein an election year, we need to see a
(09:28):
government, and people might know a bitmore about who that government is when
this is shared, who is actually going toinvest and ensure that we start that 20
-year building program now.
People are in real dire straits, childrenare not getting the kind of environment
(09:48):
if they're being moved from one piece oftemporary accommodation to another.
And that's one of the possible sort ofbroader sort of national solutions to the
problem.
But what are some other ways that we cantry and solve or address these problems
and challenges you've just highlighted?
So I think that there definitely needs tobe a targeting of support for homeless
(10:13):
charities like the ferry project, like thelight project.
in Peterborough, Jimmy's in Cambridge.
So we need government to target help atthe front line.
We also need the government to do what'scalled sorting out the local housing
allowance so that rents vary remarkablybetween Chatteris and Wisbech Peterborough
(10:43):
and Cambridge.
The rent levels just need to then be takeninto account in the benefits that people
get.
So if somebody's out of work or they needto get support, that should include the
full cost of being able to rent somewhere.
So there's a whole package of changesneeded and it's not cheap, but we're
(11:06):
talking about people who are living inpoverty.
We're talking about people who are forcedto sleep in tents and sleep rough.
the very people that Ferry Project triesto help.
We've got to help the people and they'vegot to be supported.
Thank you.
So Daniel, what are some of the benefitsthen of this modular housing model?
(11:31):
How can this help as well as be part ofthis solution to the problem Lewis has
just highlighted?
Yeah, there are several benefits.
try to break it down to the biggest ones.
Speed.
The construction is faster due tosimultaneous side work and module building
(11:53):
in a factory.
The cost effectiveness through reducedwaste and labor costs.
The quality I mentioned earlier, it'seasier to control the quality in a factory
to ensure high standards than theenvironmental impact.
It's more sustainable with less materialwaste and the ability to include energy
(12:17):
efficient features is great.
And then my favorite benefit, theflexibility.
It's easily customizable to meet specificneeds and suitable for various types of
buildings.
And like mentioned earlier, it's basicallyjust like playing Lego.
(12:38):
We were saying that some of the problemsare the government on building affordable
housing, which really prices a lot ofpeople out of the market and therefore
they can't afford to buy a home.
So then they have to rent or then orwhatever situation they didn't find
themselves in.
So speaking about affordability then howaffordable are modular homes in comparison
(13:04):
to regular bricks and mortar houses?
It's really hard to compare.
It's dependent on the project you have athand, the scale of it.
Just like the modular builder you choose,for example.
(13:25):
So there's not only one modularmanufacturer out there.
There are several, and then they arebuilding to different standards or they
have different topics they focus on.
The one modular builder is reallysustainable.
Whereas the other one is reallyaffordable, but it's not like super
environmental friendly.
So it's coming down to what manufacturingyou want for your project.
(13:50):
That's a part of what idea future homes isdoing.
So we are there to offer the expertise toour clients and tell them, Hey, that might
be a good manufacturer for you.
And then just comparing modular withtraditional.
It's not a one -to -one comparison.
(14:10):
Modular can serve, for example, differentsites.
If you have a temporary site for 10 years,modular can serve that site and then move
the homes somewhere else.
Whereas traditional can't do that.
So it's hard to compare, but at the end,from my experience, so my background is
(14:32):
working with a modular manufacturer inGermany.
We are cheaper.
and especially for the running costs.
So there are modular schemes for homelesspeople, which has energy bills of less
than five pounds per week.
And as we look at our energy bill, I'mpretty certain they are higher.
(14:53):
So it's hard to compare, but in the end,I'm pretty sure that modular homes can be
the better solution depending on theproject you want to have.
And the, so Allia Future Homes then, areyou kind of primarily focused on housing
(15:15):
the homeless or is that just one of themany strands that you work on?
Our focus is on homelessness.
Okay.
And then for the benefit of our listenersas well.
So your focus is homelessness and helpingpeople to escape.
the cycle of poverty, which is fantastic.
(15:37):
But when we talking about modular homes ingeneral, are modular homes just things to
help homeless people or can anybody lookat investing in a modular home as an
alternative to a normal house?
Anyway, I can do that.
(15:57):
So modular serves pretty much all thesectors.
Whatever is scalable.
is good for modular.
Offices, schools, homeless communities, orif you think about tiny homes, which is
like, again, Eastern Europe right now, alot of people buy themselves a tiny home
(16:22):
and put it somewhere next to the woods,for example.
That's modular as well.
So modular is just a big word for
construction which happens in a factoryenvironment first and then get on site can
be residential homes where you have liketwo semi -detached houses or an office
(16:45):
building with like 500 offices in.
So it serves pretty much every sector.
But we think that modular is a greatsolution for these supported homeless
communities because it's scalable.
It's easy, it's fast, it's cost effective.
You can serve many different sites.
And that's why we found that we want towork with modular homes for creating these
(17:08):
communities.
That's great.
And what, because it's not a traditionalbuilding method really, and it's still
fairly new in the UK.
What are some of the challenges you facewhen trying to use or
up or even sort of spread the idea ofmodular housing in the UK and then in the
(17:35):
housing sector.
What challenges do you face there?
I think the biggest challenge right now isthe perception of the modular market due
to the latest failing of big players likeBT Passive or Ilke Homes and overcoming
that stigma and lack of awareness aboutthe modular homes.
(17:55):
for us like a teaching mission that we tryto fulfill through our showcase projects
and show the people, hey, it's good.
If you do it good, it's gonna be a goodsolution for that project.
But there are other challenges likenavigating building codes, regulations,
financing, insurances, which are notadapted to the modular method yet.
(18:20):
I'm hopeful about the future.
And then simple things like
transporting the homes to the side.
If you're, for example, in a really densecity and as mentioned, these homes are
already finished.
So you need to find the right street toget the homes there.
(18:40):
So yeah, there are different challenges,but the biggest one is just the education
for people about the modular market andthat it's a great solution.
And so where can people educate themselvesabout modular housing?
listening to their podcast here.
That's brilliant.
(19:01):
thank you, Daniel.
That's wonderful.
Lewis, coming back to you, how did youcome to be involved with the ferry
project?
So my first involvement was I was thefirst, Cambridge recycling officer.
So, and that started a bit before Keith,actually, it started 34 years ago, but I
(19:22):
was aware.
around the year 2000 of what Keith wasdoing with the ferry project because he
was really strong on reuse and all of thebenefits that gives of creating
interesting work for people who arerecovering from problems of recycling
furniture to people who really need it.
(19:43):
So that was my involvement for all fromabout 2000 to about 2010 I was involved on
and off in different ways.
And, but meanwhile, Martin Clark, ourillustrious boss, had been sort of working
with Keith on the potential to have acommunity.
(20:05):
So Martin set up the first one and it wasfinished in 2020 in Cambridge and was
immediate, I think, talking to Keith andalong with the woman, the amazing Rebecca
Howard, who helped the whole project.
was on the lookout for a site.
So we worked with Keith, we worked with anoutfit Places for People.
(20:29):
They had a small piece of land, as Danielsaid.
There's a lot of advantages of Modular andone of them is to make uses of sites like
Jubilee Place.
So, yeah, Allia got its hard hat on, itssteel cap boots and got to work helping
Keith with new meaning.
(20:50):
another lovely social enterprise based inWaterbeach who make these homes that as
Daniel said last at least 60 years andquite a lot of work was put in and six
homes and a new community was created andthat was opened two years ago.
(21:11):
And how has the ferry project used modularhousing effectively in this Jubilee place
that you've helped them to establish?
Well, these communities we are passionateabout, and we're currently working on one
of 24 homes in Chelmsford.
The most important thing then, Matt, isthat there's an underestimated power of
(21:36):
people who've got a shared life experienceliving.
together.
So in addition to the direct support fromthe ferry project, this community of 25
square meter homes, they're easy forpeople who've been in difficult times, who
may have been in more like hostelaccommodation to call their own.
(21:59):
So a nice living area, decent kitchenfacilities, shower, washing machine and a
quiet bedroom at the back.
It gives people the space to recover.
So we call them move on accommodation,transitional.
They will have already made some progress,maybe at Octavia Place, Octavia House.
(22:25):
And this is in a way a reward for the factthat they're making progress.
So it's a halfway house before then movingon into places of their own.
and then freeing up a place for somebodyelse who needs it.
And it's also helping them to adapt withthose extra skills and things that when
(22:48):
you're in the more supported environment,you might have had a lot of help, but now
there's less of that support.
Yeah.
And I think what happens there is thathousing is often the last thing that
people lose.
They might have, for various reasons,their lives hit a
the buffers.
(23:10):
They may have then suffered addictionproblems probably as much after
something's gone wrong.
So housing is often the last thing theylose and this is that people rebuild their
self -respect, they rebuild relationshipswith their families, with their friends.
(23:31):
They're then in a position just to rebootbut they do need time and space.
The homes are actually designed to be partof a community with a veranda that opens
out to their neighbors.
It is social, but they similarly, they canshut the door and have peace and quiet.
And they don't get that if you're inshared accommodation.
(23:55):
thank you, Lewis.
How can modular housing help those who areexperiencing rural homelessness in
particular?
Obviously,
The focus of our podcast is sort of morespecifically on rural homelessness because
the ferry project is located in such arural area.
So how can modular housing help people inthe rural situation?
(24:20):
We'll take whatever sites we can.
Often we're looking at larger towns andcities than Wisbech, but it's sometimes
forgotten just exactly how
difficult the homeless crisis is.
They would tend to be better locatedwithin an existing settlement rather than
(24:43):
outside, although mayors do a very goodjob around the country with rural -based
communities.
So I think it needs to be a site wherepeople have got a shop nearby, they've got
a bus service, they feel part of acommunity.
It's often good if it's
(25:03):
of a church, so that's why we focus ongenerous churches who've got a spare piece
of land.
So it's just as big a challenge.
And I think we've got a hiddenhomelessness crisis in rural areas.
We've sometimes got councils that don't doas much as they need to, and they often
(25:24):
have poor information.
So councils are only really obliged tohelp people who've got children,
households with children.
and single people get badly neglected.
And so rough sleeping is only the edge ofa huge iceberg with a lot of people that
might be just finding a bed for the night.
(25:45):
And the worst part of it is if they end uphaving to sleep rough.
And in winter, some of them die becausethe temperature is just so bad and their
living conditions are so appalling thattheir health deteriorates.
So that's why we believe that
supported communities have got just as biga part to play in smaller towns right
(26:08):
across England and Wales and Scotland.
Daniel, have you got anything to add tothat?
Yeah, a couple of points.
Lewis covered most of it very good, but Ithink there are some benefits which are
not only applied to the rural part, butwhich are just a big benefit from people
(26:33):
experiencing homelessness everywhere.
The biggest one is the rapid deployment.
So we can build so much faster thantraditional homes.
And those people who are sleeping roughevery single night, they don't have any
time to wait.
And so you want to provide them a roofover their head as soon as possible.
(26:53):
And with that quick construction process,you also provide timely housing, which is
essential.
Same with the affordability I mentionedearlier.
Not only is it a cost -effective buildingmethod, which makes housing more
affordable, but also by building it
more sustainable, it reduces the utilitycosts in the end for the residents and
(27:17):
sure they have some support from thegovernment, but every penny they can save
is a valuable penny.
And also the scalability, so you can scaleit for individual or community needs and
the adaptability, so it's suitable forvarious rural landscapes and requirements
(27:40):
and
We can use sites which others can't bebuilt on.
So yeah, there are so many benefits tothat.
Yeah, there really are.
And so what are your hopes for the futureof modular housing?
Daniel, we'll start with you and thenwe'll come to Lewis.
Okay.
(28:01):
I think my biggest hope is the mainstreamacceptance and the recognition of modular
housing for its quality and efficiency.
And then I'm also looking forward to moresupportive policies and more regulations
that facilitate modular construction ingeneral.
(28:21):
I'm hopeful about the continued innovationin that sector, about other construction
techniques and materials, and also thepromotion of the green technologies and
energy efficient design.
Modular is already very good at that,but...
(28:42):
I'm pretty sure there will be moreinnovation, especially in that sector.
And of course, the wider use of modularhousing to address the housing shortage
and get people off the street as soon aspossible.
Thank you.
Lewis, how about you?
What are your hopes for the future?
We want to hear from people who might belistening to this and who are prompted to
(29:05):
help the ferry project or other homelesscharities.
Allia Future of Homes fills a gap becausethere is very little support as Keith
Smith knows and the team at Ferry Projectknow.
You're living on a shoestring budgetoften.
So we're looking for sites and we'd bereally keen if a site can be found in
(29:31):
Whist Beach to help the Ferry Projectbuild its second community.
We're looking for the government to helpus because this is a tragedy, the lives
that are being damaged.
So yeah, we're here to work with people intowns and cities across the country and
(29:52):
rural areas away from there.
If people think there's a need and theycan work with an organization.
So we do need a homeless charity that's atthe center who will
effectively provide that ongoing supportand run the homes that we're very happy to
(30:13):
help build.
And we just know that there's a gap there,Matt, and it's a tragedy, but it's one
that there's practical solutions for.
And these smaller homes, particularly forpeople who are getting used to living on
their own and re -establishing lives,really fit the bill.
(30:36):
Thanks, Lewis.
And for the benefit of our listeners, wewill be putting a link to the Allia Future
Home's website in our show notes of thisepisode.
So if you want to click over there to findout more about them or get in contact with
Lewis or Daniel, you can do that quiteeasily by just scrolling down to the
bottom of this podcast, wherever you'relistening.
(30:57):
And you should find the show notes thereand the link to their site.
Well, that just leaves you to say LewisHerbert and Daniel Renz, thank you so much
for joining us on this episode of theRural Homelessness Podcast.
Thank you for joining me.
Thank you, Matt.
Thank you, Brian Moss.
And thank you as well for listening tothis episode.
(31:18):
Don't forget that the Rural HomelessnessPodcast comes out twice a month on the 1st
and the 15th.
So we'll be back really soon with anotherepisode where we'll be discussing rural
homelessness.
We look forward to the pleasure of yourcompany.
then, goodbye.
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