The Fascinating World of Insects | Dr. Raymond Cloyd Interview

In today’s episode, Matt Evans is joined by Dr. Raymond A. Cloyd from Kansas State University. His research and extension program involves pest management/plant protection in greenhouses, nurseries, landscapes, and more. Dr. Cloyd is the extension specialist in horticultural entomology for the state of Kansas, with a major clientele that includes homeowners, master gardeners, and professional and commercial operators.

Episode Transcript

(00:05):
Today I am joined by Dr. Raymond Cloyd.
Raymond is an extension entomology
specialist at Kansas State University.
Raymond and I will be discussing what he
does as an extension specialist and how
extension specialist positively impact
the horticulture industry and the
community. Welcome, Raymond.
Thank you, Matt. Thanks for inviting me

(00:26):
to participate.
Yeah, thank you. I always love talking to
you. We've known each other for quite a
while.
We have, yeah.
It's always kind of nice to geek out a
little. First thing I'm going to do is
get some formalities out of the way,
because I always ask somebody that's got
a Ph.D. Do I call you Dr. Raymond Cloyd?
Do I call you Dr. Cloyd? Do I call you
Ray? Do I call you Raymond? What do you
prefer? Raymond is fine. Raymond is fine.

(00:48):
Okay. Now that we got that
out of the- Yeah. Dr. Buggs is another 1.
Raymond is fine.
Okay. Perfect. Perfect. And that brings
me to the next question when we talk
about this. Some of our listeners may not
know what entomology is. So could you
define entomology for us?
Yeah, entomology simply is just the study
of insects. But also you have to look at

(01:10):
you know mites, arthropods, and when we
say arthropods you put crustaceans in
there But we normally say it's the study
of insects, but also mites are part of
that category also. But that's what
entomology is, the study of insects.
Okay. So interesting. I took an
entomology class at school, so
I
don't know a lot, but I did take 1 class.

(01:32):
What is the line there? Because I was
thinking about this the other day.
Insects are insects, but mites are
arachnids?
Arachnids, yeah. Arachnids. Spiders and
mites.
Spiders are arachnids. Some of the
crustaceans that we consider to be pests
that we deal with in horticulture, I
would say like a, and if I've got this
wrong, let me know, a snail, does that

(01:54):
fall under the bucket of a crustacean?
No, those are mollusks. Mollusks.
Mollusks, yeah. Okay. Yeah.
Yeah. What kind of draws the line as far
as like crustaceans and mollusk as far as
entomology goes? Is there a line there
that defines that?
Yeah, when you look at entomology, you
know what constitutes an insect. And you
know, The main 1 is the number of legs, 6

(02:17):
legs. And so spiders and mites have 8
legs. Millipedes and centipedes have more
than 8 legs. And some of the other
crustaceans have, for example, sow bugs
and pill bugs have more than that. So the
insect is, there's 3 body regions, the
head, that's the head, the thorax, the

(02:38):
middle section, abdomen. Spiders have 2
body regions. The head and the abdomen
are been infused, they call that the
cephalothorax, and then they have the
abdomen. So there are, so there's the 3
body, there are the 3 body regions, there
are the 6 legs, joint appendages, and
they can have 1 or 2 sets of wings.

(03:00):
Yeah. Gotcha.
And so a slug, molusca snail Doesn't have
legs they have that mute that that
Structure that allows them to produce
mucosa allow them to move around Okay,
and that's there so they're classified
differently
And a sow bug or a pill bug is a

(03:21):
crustacean. Yes. Interesting. Okay.
Sorry. I just like to know. Also, I'll
let you know, I love hostas.
So yeah, I do. I do. You know, it's slugs
and snails. I do know.
I'm very, very familiar with them. Yeah,
for sure. So well, thank you for that.
That'll help our listeners. We talked

(03:42):
about this earlier, but I think it's
important. What, what got you interested
in the field of entomology.
Well, I've always been interested in
nature In some respect and I'm from
California. So there's lots of
opportunities there I've my my Dad's
father had a 40 acre farm in Missouri

(04:03):
between a place called halfway between
Baller and Buffalo And I'd go out there
look for for burbugs getting my triggers.
Yep, but I've always been fascinated by
Insects the reason is their evolutionary
biology and the morphology the difference
in appearance and of course there are
over a million species of insects, which
means they're the largest number of

(04:24):
organisms on the planet.
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And I do know where
halfway Missouri is. I thought that would
be interesting to bring that up. So my
family's from Missouri. I didn't grow up
in Missouri and we've had property in
Missouri and at some of the lakes there.
So
very familiar with that. So were you

(04:45):
interested in bugs from a very early age?
I was, I mean, I think from after leaving
a grade school, getting the middle
school, sixth, eighth grade, I did lots
of reading. I didn't do any bug
collections, but it was more observation.
And then in high school, I got more
involved. I was taking courses in biology

(05:07):
and that got me more in line to the
aspect of entomology out of everything.
Cool. So when you got out of school,
obviously, you've got a PhD in
entomology. Is that correct?
Yes.
Okay. What's your your educational
background? Where have you moved around
to? What did you study? What got you to

(05:29):
where you are right now as far as
education goes?
That's a good question man. I'm from
California, the Monterey Peninsula,
Carmel Valley. So I got an AS degree in
ornamental horticulture from a place
called Monterey Peninsula College. From
there I went to California Polytechnic
San Luis Obispo, which is in the southern

(05:50):
part of California above Los Angeles. And
I get a degree in horticulture and a
minor in pest management. And then I went
to, after 2 years, I had my own business
in California, Ray Cloyde Landscape
Design and Consulting, and that's 10
years. And then 2 years after that, I
went to Purdue University to get my

(06:10):
master's degree in entomology. And then I
stayed there for my PhD in entomology.
Bingo. Yeah. So I
have every degree. I have AS, BS, MS, and
PhD.
I love it. Now, a question for you. If
you were interested in entomology, What

(06:31):
got you to start in horticulture?
Well, first of all, I had my own business
for at that 0.56 years in horticulture. I
was designing, installing, and
maintaining. But really, it started,
plants and insects have a very strong
interaction relationship. And so that's
where I started looking at insects,

(06:52):
feeding on plants, because that's the
herbivores. Most of them survive that.
That's how they get their food source. So
having a background in horticulture,
knowing plants, helps you in
understanding the relationship between
entomology and horticulture. Because we,
I deal with horticultural crops, my
responsibilities, we might be talking

(07:13):
about that later, are horticultural crops
in Kansas. Now there's no borders anymore
so I get you know emails and inquiries
all over, but it's turf grass, landscape,
greenhouse, interior scape conservatory,
fruits and vegetables, Christmas trees,
hemp and cannabis, and I also deal with
the pollinators and beekeepers. But yeah,
interesting. So, so when you know, I get

(07:34):
a call about what's feeding on my
yontimus, spider mites.
Right. Yeah. Question, since you
mentioned it, you you mentioned hemp and
cannabis, which isn't legal in Kansas.
What factor do you play there in the
state of Kansas?
Well, hemp through the farm bill is
allowed in Kansas. You can get a
certificate. Cannabis is not medical and

(07:56):
medicinal, medical, medicinal or
recreational not allowed in Kansas. But
hemp is. Okay. However, that's declining
because of the oversupply of the hemp and
even cannabis. But yeah, there are a
series of pests, outdoor field
production, which is still done in some
of the areas that warrants a control.
Okay. And the hemp industry isn't in

(08:17):
agriculture. It's more on the
horticulture side
Actually, it's almost field crop related.
Okay, I mean it's it's monoculture
basically and of course when you've got
monoculture You're more susceptible to
insect problems like the corn earworm,
right?
Which is a problem later on when the hemp
is in bud. So they have to manage those

(08:37):
populations. Interesting.
It's an ever evolving world that we live
in.
The only constant is change.
Yes, yes. I know that for sure. Well, I'm
going to jump forward on a couple of
questions and then I'm going to go back
because you kind of brought this up
about, I think 1 of the things that I
find most fascinating about plants,
because both of us are obviously plant

(08:58):
geeks, you're more of a bug geek and a
plant geek, I'm more of a plant geek, is
the symbiotic relationships that these
plants and bugs have with 1 another. And
there's a couple things that I wanted to
kind of discuss that I find fascinating
and I'm curious to know if you've got
some things as well. 1 of the things that

(09:22):
I, there are things that I learned that
just blow my mind. Okay. And the other
day I was following something and it was
a, I get on Facebook all the time and I
love a couple things. 1 is a diagnosis of
tree problem, because I'm not in the
field as much as I used to be. So people
will post a plant and they're having this

(09:44):
problem and then I can ask them
questions, the group can, and then we can
diagnose the problem. So I kind of geek
out on that. And then there is plant ID
too. And since I'm not in the field, I
love seeing that and helping people
identify their plants. So someone was
showing the other day and it was a small
appendage on a cherry tree and it was

(10:05):
just below the leaf and it was this
little bump I'd never seen before. I'm
sure I learned it in school and forgot
it. We talked about this earlier. And
it's called an extra floral nectary.
You're shaking your head because you know
about this. And I wanted to talk about
some of these kind of mind blowing
things. And then I wanted to ask you some
of the things that blow your mind with
bugs, because selfishly I want to find

(10:26):
out what this is. But the whole premise
of the extra floral nectare is to, from
my perception, if I get this wrong, you
let me know, but is to attract ants to
the plant because there is nectar
available and the ants are there to
defend the plant against other insects
that might feed on the plant. Did I get

(10:46):
that correct?
Well, partially. Okay. Okay, so there are
plants that have these
extra-fluoro-nectaries or other devices,
structures that attract ants, and what
they do, the ants will protect the plant
from other herbivores. I think acacia is
1 plant that has that symbiosis
relationship. The other aspect of that is

(11:09):
that pests like scales, whiteflies,
mealybugs that exude honeydew from the
plant, the ants feed on that and they
will protect those pests from the
beneficial insects. Right. So if you're
going to do biological control, you have
to deal with the ants.
Sure.
And so that's another aspect, you know,

(11:30):
that we call this tritrophic
interactions, Matt, where you have the
plant, a herbivore feeding on it like
caterpillar. Okay. The plant leaves give
off volatiles that attract parasitoids or
predators that will attack the herbivore.
Okay. And that's a whole fascinating
realm of insect ecology, is the
tritrophic interactions. But like you

(11:51):
said, your point is that some plants have
these symbolic relationships or
mutualistic relationships with other
insects that either help for pollination,
like the fig wasp. OK. Fig wasps that are
involved, only this 1 fig, only 1 insect
will pollinate it. And then these
structures like extra folinectaries that

(12:12):
were giving off volatile chemicals or
secrete chemicals that are attractive to
ants. And that provides protection from
other herbivores because ants are
predators basically.
Oh yeah and I think the example that I
was reading about was on cherry trees and
it was either tint caterpillar or fall
webworm. Basically the ants were
protecting the tree from fall webworm or

(12:34):
tent caterpillar. I don't remember which
1 during the exact same time that that
caterpillar was on the tree as well.
Right. Fall webworm tends to feed on a
hickory and walnut. That's less of a so,
but Eastern Tent caterpillar will feed on
plants in the Roseaceae family, which
includes plum and cherry. And those
plants do have these extra floral

(12:55):
nectarines.
Yeah, it was fascinating. The interesting
thing too, as we're talking about that
you were bringing up the the symbiotic
relationship that ants have with scale in
a way they kind of
soft soft scale
yeah they they kind of farm the scale
to yeah they move them around with a
number a couple things when they protect
them from beneficial insects They will

(13:15):
feed on the honeydew because it's a
carbohydrate source.
Yep.
And they will move them around to plants
because after a period of time, the
quality is reduced and they can't always
fly. So they'll move them around to a
part of the plant or another plant that
has a higher level of quality based on
nutritional content.
OK, interesting. I was you know, the 1

(13:38):
scale insect that we we battle quite a
bit is magnolia scale. And I've always
wondered how it gets from 1 1 plant to
another. And what you're saying is an amp
basically just picks up the scale and
moves it over to another plant in a way
It could wind will move Magnolia scales
to saw scale so it does produce the
honeydew so you can have ants moving

(13:58):
Scales around or just natural wind moving
the crawlers from 1 plant to the next.
Right.
And it's interesting to understand that
interaction because that interaction can
play into the control measures that we
have. 1 of the landscape designers that
we have here at Ryan's that works in
Omaha, I was actually reading some
research. I got kind of geek out and will
read research from time to time and it

(14:19):
was on the control of scale insects a
magnolia scale specifically and it was
based on the interaction of Controlling
the ants to control the scale
Yeah, if you're going to implement or
utilize biological control, which is
basically relying on parasitoids and
predators to manage or regulate the

(14:40):
populations, you have to deal with the
ants first. Right. And then Once you do
that, then you can deal with the scale.
Now soft scales, of course, because the
way they feed are susceptible to systemic
insecticides. You can apply them or you
can use a contact as long as you time it
when the crawlers are out. That's when
you're going to get your highest level
mortality. But first, if you're relying

(15:01):
on natural control, you do have to deal
with the ants.
Yeah. And I just found it fascinating
that instead of even using insecticides,
you could use this as part of the control
measure of controlling the ants to
basically reduce the scale population.
Yeah. That would allow the parasitoids
and predators to come in and manage or
regulate the scale population.

(15:22):
Yeah, yeah, kind of interesting. Sarah
Vanik was the 1 that wrote that. And I
thought it was interesting that I read it
and I was geeking out about it 1 day. And
she said, Well, I wrote that. So yeah, we
talked more after that. Other things that
kind of blow my mind. And I know we're
getting on this tangent, but I think it's
probably good. You ever watch David

(15:43):
Attenborough?
So some some stuff I have. Yeah.
OK. He just I think last year he came out
with the green planet and he was talking
about the interaction of leaf cutter ants
and basically how they farm fungi. And
I'll probably get this wrong again as
well, but it was kind of mind blowing
that these ants go to a plant, harvest

(16:05):
the plant material, take it to fungus,
and they feed the fungus with the plant
material and then feed on the fungi.
Yeah. Did I get that correct?
It's close. Yeah, they they put in the
ground and then if the fungi will grow on
it And that's what they're using as a
food source. They feed the queen right
the fungi Yeah,
yeah, and then I thought it was really

(16:25):
interesting because he he always does a
good job of showing these interactions
How the plants can actually morph to
create these chemicals that are a natural
fungicide and the fungus will start to
decline and then the ant will move on to
another plant. I don't know how the world
gets to that point, but to know the
plants and the insect side of it is very

(16:48):
important, especially when it's control
or just if you want to kind of marvel in
the world of nature too.
Well, it's part of the evolutionary
process, man. I mean, we call that where,
you know, insects and plants will go back
and forth. We call that really in
ecology, adaptive radiation. OK. And you
know, when people talk about growing
plants that are resistant or tolerant,

(17:11):
well, that's fine. But then the insect
will evolve to overcome that resistance.
And then the plant will try to produce
another defense to overcome that. So
that's what really happens in nature.
Interesting.
So those are the 2 things as far as like
symbiosis and interactions that I kind of
find fascinating. Is there anything that
Like as an entomologist who's been

(17:31):
studying this for so long, as a
horticulturist who's been studying this,
is there any sort of interaction, whether
it's local or anywhere else in the world
that blows your mind as far as the
interaction between a insect and a plant?
Well, I don't know about blowing my mind,
but yeah, I mean, really there's a lot
out there, but I think 1 of the most
fascinating aspects of insect ecology and

(17:54):
evolution is the periodical cicada, the
13, 17 year cicada. You have this insect
that's in the ground for 12, 13 years,
feeding on plant roots, and then all of a
sudden comes out and knows when to come
out. And then you get the 17 year
circadian that will do the same. And then
they're out for the, they come out as the

(18:15):
nymphs emerge, get on the tree, and then
the adults emerge, and they're out for a
couple weeks making noise, mating, the
female lays eggs on the branches of
trees. Those nymphs will emerge, fall to
the ground, and start it all over, and
the adults die. So, I mean, the question,
how do they do that? Phenologically, how
do they know when to come up? And it's

(18:38):
time for, it's 13 years now, or 17 years.
That's
fascinating. So they have a Google
calendar. I didn't
know if you had this. I don't know if
they, yeah, right now, because we have
the, suppose the, I think it's the 19 and
13 year cicadas emerging, not Kansas,
but, you know, surrounding I think
Missouri.
Yep. For their
ends in Oklahoma, for the rest. And then

(18:59):
they'll be out. But that's the first time
we've had 2 broods, we call those broods,
emerging simultaneously and making all
this noise for like 2 weeks and then
they're done. Right.
So there are a lot of unknowns in what we
do. My question to you would be, is there
a known reason how they know it's 13
years or they know it's 17 years? Is

(19:21):
there anything from a scientific
standpoint that anybody can point to to
say why that is?
Really, we studied that. People have
studied that over the years and it's
probably a combination of factors. Plant
phenology, temperature, day length, day
length always or photo period always has
an impact on insects, you know, the
longer the days and of course, you know,

(19:43):
plant phenology, you know, the tree has
to have leaves or whatever for the, not
cicadas, because they're not, the nymphs
are not feeding on the leaves, they're
feeding on the roots in the soil. But a
location where the male, we call it, I
think they're called mating centers,
where The males and females will mate on
the tree and then the male dies and the

(20:03):
female then lays her complement of eggs
on the branches of oak trees. Okay. Yeah.
So it could be an interaction between the
plant and the insect underground if it's
feeding on
the roots.
It could
be it could be it could be root exudates.
Right.
That the tree's giving off. It's time to
emerge. Interesting.
But still 1 of those unknowns.
A lot of it's unknowns, or there's

(20:25):
interactions that are still not
understood.
Awesome. So it kind of rolls into what we
really wanted to talk about before we
started geeking out on things. It rolls
into this question that there's a lot
that we don't know. About horticulture
that we, a lot, we don't know about
insects. And there are people like you
that study this, which is, is an

(20:46):
important thing. So what I'd really like
to do is kind of roll into what your
position is and How you benefit the
horticulture industry and the community
in general? Can you define for us what a
what what your job is but more so what an
extension specialist is as well.
OK, so let me go backwards and say what
extension does. OK. Extension really is a

(21:08):
bridge between research and education. We
take the research that's been done,
synthesize it down to layman's terms, and
then present it, either in a written form
or verbal form basically overall. So
we're taking this information that's been
done on done like on cicadas and then

(21:29):
transmitting it to the industry
homeowners or master gardeners. Yeah, so
we're a venue out there either through
email now or telephone or I don't deal
with social media, but any venue to
provide accurate information based on
sound empirical based research that's

(21:50):
going to be helpful to somebody make a
decision or for identification of a pest.
Why are we having, why are squash bugs
right now in my garden? What can I do
about it? So that's based, those
understand the life cycle and the biology
is critical to understanding what you
could do in terms of management.

(22:11):
That's cool because we live in a world
right now where we're getting messages
from lots of different places and it is
hard to determine if those messages are
accurate or inaccurate because they're
going through the filter of whoever that
person is and you really don't know what
their background is either. So the whole
premise that you're talking about is that
the extension was set up so that we could

(22:35):
find out the information that's found
through science so we could have good
results when we're talking about control
measures or growing plants or that type
of thing as well. And I think that's
something that, you know, when I was
younger, we didn't have all these things.
And when you were younger, you're a
little bit older than me. We didn't have
the social media, we didn't have the

(22:57):
internet, we didn't have all the
Wikipedia, these ways of looking things
up. So we found information from 1
source, which was an extension agent that
was kind of our go-to. And I guess that's
a question that I have too is, how has
this changing world that we live in
affected your ability to reach people?

(23:18):
That's a really good question, Matt, and
it's a very complex question. Like you
said, if you go back before the internet
and all the social media and all this
technology, farmers, producers,
homeowners would call up the county
office and talk to an extension
specialist or horde agent, get

(23:38):
information. They would rely on extension
publications to get information, which we
still produce. We get them online now.
But with the advent of technology, the
internet, which is basically a source of
contamination because the information is
not regulated. And a lot of it's not

(23:59):
based on sound empirical science. It's
anecdotal, And of course, people could
put anything on these social venues or
media venues, and they're an expert
whatever. So what that has done, it's
been a challenge for Extension because
people come in or call us. I found on the
I read on the internet that this will

(24:19):
work and I could say well there's no
science to back that up. Right. And so
again the the extension now is sort of a
screener filter to disregard this
information that's being thrown on the
internet and people read that and they
think oh if I hang banana peels on my
roses will I keep aphids away? Well first

(24:40):
of all your roses will look like crap and
it'll stink and it doesn't work. So
that's really what we're doing. We're
playing behind the 8 ball to let people
know that that is not true and this is
what you should do to deal with the
problem.
Yeah, that makes it pretty tough. I think
It's also interesting that a lot of

(25:01):
people get into horticulture as a hobby.
So they may not truly have got into it
from the scientific aspect. So whenever I
hear something, I try to run it through a
scientific filter to, to kind of figure
out if it's correct or not. But I think
that's important too, because you're
dealing with a group or an audience that

(25:22):
may not be versed in science or may not
even respect that science is there
either. So that's kind of another level
that you have to deal with also.
Oh, absolutely. I mean, like the, I mean,
the cannabis industry is a prime example
where people got into cannabis, were not
horticulturist and they were thinking,

(25:42):
we'll make a profit. And of course that
whole, that whole industry just tanked
out for the reasons. But that was 1 of
the common reasons why there was a lot of
failures going on. And again, people
really want simple and they either want
something that they want, a response they
believe in or they want a simple answer

(26:02):
and life is not like that. It's very
complex and It's for example, you know,
how do we deal with squash bugs? Well,
you either kill the eggs on the funerary
side spray or squish them or the the the
nymphs or the the nymphs under the leaf
So well, can't just spray something to
kill at all, right? And there's there is
there's nothing like that People tend to

(26:23):
put things in black and white,
compartmentalize, but most life is gray
in between. And there's all these
interactions we've talked about that are
associated with that.
Yeah, and science can be complex as well
when you deal with growing degree days
and life cycles of insects and
interactions between different insects
and different plants. And I'm sure the
you know, there's an environmental

(26:43):
movement to that plays into that a little
bit as well because they want the black
and white I want to control this squash
bug but I Don't want to use pesticides as
well and that that sometimes can add some
more complexity to it also
Oh, yes, I really enjoy talking to
environmentalist and say I want this 1
says, okay What are you gonna do they
have bed bugs in your house, right? Yeah
or termites or ants? Yeah I mean you're

(27:05):
an environmentalist to a certain point
until, until it's in your, you're dealing
with it for reality. Exactly, exactly.
Yeah, it's. And so, as extension person,
Matt, you know, for my example, I am
there, you know, to answer emails because
the extent the the horde agents, they

(27:27):
contact a specialist. That's what we are.
Gotcha.
Because they've got somebody bringing an
insect in or bug in and they want to
answer right away. So they get priority
like this morning before I came here, I
was addressing some of those are made
calls. But our goal in extension and the
value of it, which is so imperative today
is, is to provide accurate, not just say

(27:48):
science based because science has some
issues too, but provide accurate
information by understanding the biology,
the ecology of the insect or mite, why
you're why we're recommending this to
deal with it. Right.
Yeah. And that that's interesting because
that's if you if you take it down and
kind of break it down, that's what
Land-grant universities were created for
in the first place was to have a place of

(28:10):
education and then have outreach from
there So that people could understand
what was being studied at the university
for the benefit of the community.
Yeah, when you look at extension, the
Hatch Act, the Smith-Lever Act, all that,
and Kansas State is a land grant
university, which means you have 3 legs,
teaching, research, extension.
So We just had a little interlude there

(28:31):
and I find it interesting. We'll probably
edit some of this out, but we probably
need to recap it, which is we were just
talking about technology and how it's
impacted your job from the internet and
all the, you know, the Facebook and
everybody's opinions and the
environmentalist movement. And Raymond's
phone goes off and Raymond's got a flip
phone which I totally respect because I'm

(28:53):
like a phone addict I'm on there all the
time texting and emailing and everybody's
got to be available all the time so It's
cool that your phone went off and I
totally respect the fact that you've got
a flip phone. I actually envy you at this
point.
Well, the thing about, again, the reason
I use a flip phone or the landline is

(29:13):
that people need to call me. If I get
something on an email, I need more
information. And that's why before I came
in, I called the person. What plant?
What's the level of infestation? The best
form of communication is still the
in-person interaction or talking to
somebody because I can ask questions
which will help me to help that person,

(29:34):
you know, decide what you should do at
the point. If I just get like a text,
that's just words on a screen. I don't
get enough information.
Yeah. Yeah, that's a very important part
of the diagnostic process, which probably
ought to have a podcast on in the future
is that it's really an interaction. I'll
have this interaction with my doctors.
Sometimes I'll go in and say, I've got

(29:54):
these symptoms. And they'll say, well,
you need this. And I'm like, we've got to
talk more. Because I know he or she needs
more information than what I've given.
And I come from the same school, which
is, if we're trying to diagnose a problem
or determine how to fix the problem, we
need photographs. We might need to be
there on site. We might need to ask you
lots of questions.
You need a history.

(30:15):
We need a history.
It's like in the old days that you'd go
to the doctor, olden days, meaning is you
go to the doctor and they sit there and
ask you questions. Now the doctors come
with computers and they go through like
their own diagnostics, but they're not
paying attention and they're not asking
the question they need to, to really get
to the, well, what are the potential

(30:36):
causes of your ailment?
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So a couple of the
questions, you define what it is that you
do. I'm curious too, you and I've talked
about this quite a bit. Part of your job
is research as well. Scientific research.
So what portion of your job is outreach
to the public? And what portion is

(30:57):
research?
Okay, on paper, Matt, it's 70 extension
30 research, which means it's 100%
everything. Okay. Yeah, so we do, I've
been involved in research for many years
in my academic, almost 30 years academic
career. And a lot of what we do is we
call, so there's 2 types of researchers,
applied and practical. We do, or basic,

(31:19):
we do the applied practical, because we
know our the audience or my clientele or
stakeholders are looking for solutions
short term or long term. So a lot of what
we've done is like, you know, you know,
looking at ecology, we've done a lot of
pesticide efficacy trials for companies.
We get down into like, you know, using

(31:40):
pheromone baits or biological control,
looking at, there's a lot that we've
done. But we look at the practical
applied because that's generally what the
audience I'm dealing with is, you know,
Ryan, Lonnie and tree. When I get a call
from, you know, I've got spider mites on
anonymous, you know, what can I do to
alleviate the problem? So, yeah, I mean,

(32:02):
not downplaying basic is important, but
that's we're not we're not into the
molecular physiological level. We're
understanding the life cycle, the
biology, ecology. So then we could
provide an alternate means of dealing
with an insect or mite pest, whether it
be a scale or aphid, whitefly, mealy bug,
that's going to result in some type of

(32:23):
management, either short term, 2 years or
long term, but 5 to 10 years, you know.
Yeah, that's interesting because really
what we do, especially like Ryan, Lon and
Tree, we're applying practical means to
control things. But those practical
means, most of them are based in science
have come from research that was taken
place. But there is also a place where

(32:45):
research hasn't been done on certain
things either. So we have to apply it
from a different scenario that may be
similar to the 1 that we're dealing with
as well.
Yeah, the old science has never settled.
When you do research, you always usually
open up new doors and new questions.
Yeah, And that's what science is designed
to do. Yeah, it's the empirical robust
nature of designing experiments,

(33:07):
conducting it, analyzing the data
appropriately, and then using that data
to formulate results. And then you can
discuss the results in relation to what's
already been done or what really needs to
be done.
And I think in the world of horticulture,
when we talk about that research, that's
even more important to talk about because
there's no way to do your research in a

(33:27):
vacuum either. There's lots of different
factors that affect how your research
plays out so you have to consider those
in what the results are in the background
as well.
Right I mean we talk about interactions
you know again a lot of our research with
thrips from mealy bugs whiteflies fungus
gnats you know we look at the effect of

(33:48):
moisture content on growing medium and
that how that influences the fungus gnats
or their beneficial insects like road
beetles. So this is this is all the
interaction. So there's normally people
get frustrated or I read a paper and they
may have 1 conclusion, but now there's
like 5 or 6 questions generated from that
research. We probably should look at this

(34:10):
also.
Right. Yeah. I think that's pretty cool
because I always look to research for
answers, But honestly, a lot of times it
creates more questions, which are
actually good though, because I think it
creates kind of that brain that has you
always seeking answers for certain
things.
Critical thinking. Critical thinking.
Which we've gotten away from that. It

(34:31):
promotes critical thinking, always asking
questions, what's the source, what's the
information, where does it lead us to,
yeah.
Yeah, critical thinking, that's the best
way to define what that is, and something
that a lot of us have lost in that world
of being able to go out and ask ask
anything anywhere or you have an app for

(34:51):
something and it be answered for you
versus how did we get to that point
technology smartphones have really
degraded the aspect of critical thinking
because people don't do it they accept
what's on there They don't figure out
what's a source. What's the narrative? I
mean, I'm not going to get political, but
really that's what's happened. Right. In
AM, I'd even make that even

(35:12):
worse. AM? Artificial intelligence.
Oh, AI.
Yeah. AI,
yes. GPT, open AI. Yes. Yeah. Right now
I'll say you can't believe what you read.
So you're here.
Yep. Interesting. What's a normal week
workweek look like for you? Define
normal. Yeah. Well, I
mean, basically, it's kind of so emails,

(35:32):
phone calls, samples coming in, giving
talks, writing articles, whether it be
for a trade journal or extension
publications, writing, developing your
manuscript for your research, reviewing
manuscripts, applying for grants,
reviewing grants, going out visiting the

(35:53):
producers, doing this, doing podcasts,
education. Really everything is based on
some level of education. Or promoting
education. But yeah, that's the beauty of
the job is every day is going to be
different. And there are some challenges
and some, but no day is going to be the
same. It's really interesting to come in

(36:14):
early in the morning, you know, deal with
the emails and then the day will start
and then, you know, deal with students. I
don't teach. I give lots of guest
lectures, but I don't have a formal
teaching appointment. But extension
outreach is a form of teaching. It's just
a different methodology of doing it or
venue. But that is a form of educating
and teaching people.

(36:35):
Exactly. And I think that's what always
drew me to horticulture as well is that
it is ever evolving. You have the seasons
of the year, so you have those ebbs and
flows, but then you have the different
plants, you have the different insects,
you have the different diseases, you have
all those different things that fall into
it. So like you said, 1 day is totally

(36:55):
different from the next.
Yeah, that aspect of seasonality, I
really promote that in talks because by
understanding seasonality time of year
that helps you determine what pests will
be a problem. You know for example if
somebody calls you up in May March and
says I have bagworm problems, no. Right.
Those are going to be May June or it's

(37:17):
November I have spider mite problems.
Well not too spotted spider but maybe the
spruce spider. So understanding
seasonality throughout the year and when
the pests would be present helps in the
diagnostic process and possibly
identifying what the problem is, then
that will lead to possibly providing some
recommendations that will be valid.

(37:39):
Yes. Very, very complex to determine a
lot of those things because it's ever
evolving for sure. So another portion of
your job is it's definitely education.
It's definitely research. I come from the
field of horticulture. So this is a
business for me. For a lot of people,
it's a hobby. They grow hostas in their
backyard and they get information from

(38:01):
Extension that way. How does an Extension
specialist or Extension agent benefit
myself as an arborist, or Ryan Lawn and
Tree as a turf management company, or the
greenhouse that I used to work at. How
does it benefit the the business side of
horticulture? What you do?

(38:21):
Well, what we I think is the key aspect
of that Matt is the educational
component. Okay, you know, because you
have new people coming in. So we could we
can answer questions via phone or email
that you have out your field people. We
provide education, we can give training
sessions or seminars, which we've done,
I've done for Ryan Lawn and Tree for
years. So it's there and also just

(38:45):
discussions that people can ask questions
about you know I see what's what's this
damage on my tree things like that so
it's more answering questions providing
the education which in the the more
educated you are having having owned a
business myself the better you're gonna
do in the business world
yeah
in most cases yeah yeah Because the

(39:06):
clientele you have will be more
comfortable with you because I know
you've been educated. You know, you're
not mo blow go. Yep. Like we used to have
in California.
Yep.
But the, the aspect of education and
being authentic, you know, you're there
to help them, really goes a long way. And
I think that really enhances the aspect

(39:26):
of the business component.
Yeah, I think that's something really
interesting because any facet of
horticulture that you're in usually
involves some education. When I worked at
the nursery, at the retail side, I had to
answer these type of diagnostic questions
for clients that came in. If you're an
arborist, you have to be able to do this.
A turf manager, probably the only place
that I didn't, well, I still had research

(39:48):
side, but that I didn't have to convey
that research to someone else was when I
worked in production greenhouse, but I
still had to have the education for the
control majors and things like that.
Another question that I have, so you do
30% of your job is research who funds
that research
Well, that's a good question. And that's

(40:10):
a good question now because the funding
has gone down. Okay, but Several sources
are associations. Yep, granting agencies
and the industry Okay Right now the
industry money has dried up because of
the mergers, the regulations. We haven't
really looked at a new numbered compound
With a new mode of action for probably 5

(40:32):
to 10 years
and when you say a number compound, I'm
sure you're talking about a pesticide
In our case an insecticide or mitis.
Okay. Yeah, so really that's what I tell
the producers what you have now you're
not going to gain any new materials and
that's why you need to use them
judiciously so you don't promote
resistance in the populations. We talked

(40:52):
about that rotating different modes of
action to minimize resistance but really
the the mergers of different industries
like the like the airline industry and
others there's less money being put out
there to have the universities do it
because the universities, that's going to
be more trustworthy to the people than

(41:13):
the industry doing it on themselves, the
company. When somebody says this was done
by Bayer, now Bayer-Monsanto, there's
going to be a question mark there. But if
it's done at a reputable university, that
has more weight to it. But again, the
money, the funds for that have dried up.
And so we've gone to like industry like
nurseries and greenhouses for requests

(41:36):
for some funds. But yeah, so those are
the sources of how we fund the research
aspect. The extension is funded through
the state and federal government. Right.
But really all their, everything is soft
dollars, Matt, which means it's either
it's grant related. Okay. So if you don't

(41:57):
get a grant, you can't get a grad student
and you can't do the research.
Gotcha. That is interesting that even in
my short career, when I was in college,
it was interesting. Part of the time, I
told you before that I went to the
library every day at K-State and I
studied. And 1 thing that I would treat
myself to, as weird as this sounds, was

(42:18):
we didn't have the internet, but we had
the Journal of Arboriculture from the ISA
and I would open that up and I would read
the research articles and they would talk
about we've got this problem, we can
treat it with this, we're trying this and
this is what the results are. And for the
first portion of my career, probably the
first decade, you could find that
research out there. It was being done all

(42:41):
the time. We had new chemistries coming
out. We had new exciting things to try
out. But you're really correct in the
last, you know, I've been doing this
close to 30 years in the last probably 15
to 20 years, no real new chemistries. We
have to use the old same old chemistries
to find new results for new problems that
are coming out. And I think that's very,

(43:03):
very important from 2 standpoints that
the money's dried up because there isn't
necessarily that much money in
horticulture.
Right.
Sometimes we can pull things over from
the ag side and use those and apply them.
But really that portion of a lot of those
businesses, the DuPonts and the Bears,
they want to get out of that business
because it's a small fraction of what

(43:24):
they do overall. And it's a changing
world in that we don't have the research
that we need to support the problems that
we're dealing with. And even in the, it's
interesting too, that in the first 10
years we had all these new chemistries
come out, but in the last 15 years I've
seen more new problems from invasive

(43:46):
insects but less chemistries to deal with
them. When you think about all the
different types of bugs that we, you
know, we're in a global economy, we have
all kinds of different bugs, even in the
middle of Kansas, that we're having to
deal with. And that'll be a bigger and
bigger problem. So if you don't, what's
this look like in the future for you? I'm

(44:06):
curious about this. If we know for a fact
that the money for research is starting
to dry up, you have to hunt more to find
this money from different associations.
We know that regulation, environmentalism
is kind of closing down some of these
doors to some of the new chemistries that
could have come out. Businesses don't

(44:27):
want to be involved with this. What do
you think this looks like in the future?
Or is there a solution other than the 1
that I'm thinking may be what it looks
like in the future?
That's a very good question and a very
broad question. I'll answer it from
different venues. So when you look at the

(44:48):
chemical money, which like you said, the
70s, 80s, 90s, there were new active
ingredients come on down the pike. I
think every year we were, you know, there
were like 5 new actives with different
modes of action. What's happened is the
mergers. I mean, you know, DuPont, I
think, merged with, they merged with Dow,
now they're called Corteva, Bayer,

(45:11):
Monsanto. I think that the Syngento was a
merger of several companies. So you have
fewer entities out there and their mantra
basically because they know the
horticulture market is a specialty market
and they don't make much money. Their
cash cows are corn, soybean, rice and
wheat and maybe some others out there. So

(45:33):
the specialty market, they don't make
much money out of it. And there's also
high liability because of the use of
materials and these are food crops and
ornamentals, there's residue issues and
things like that. They're a little
skittish about getting in there, and
actually some of them are pulling out. I
think Bayer's pulling out of that market,
and they're forming new crop protection

(45:53):
agencies that way. The other aspect of it
is that there are fewer extension
entomologists anymore in the United
States. I think there's less myself less
than a handful now. And the need for
extension is increasing. Like you said
invasive species. The main 1 we're very
concerned about is a spotted lanternfly.

(46:14):
Which has been in Pennsylvania since 2014
moving across feeds on grapes, landscape
trees and shrubs can have a dramatic
impact on the horticulture industry in
Kansas, like it is already in the 17
states it's in. But we don't have the
people anymore for extension because
they're not hiring people. He either
retired, they've gone into industry or

(46:36):
they've unfortunately died, but they're
not being replaced. So there are fewer
entities, fewer individuals or entities
to get information from. See, I think
really long-term Matt extension is going
to be more regionalized formality. It's
already that way. Right. I mean, I
handled questions from the United States
and the world, you get emails, but

(46:57):
formality-wise, it's gonna be, You'll
have a person doing the extension for the
Midwest, maybe 5 or 6 states, maybe the
Pacific or whatever. And many of those,
when you look at extension right now,
entomology wise, I don't know how many
there are west of Kansas. There's very
few, and there's very few even east of

(47:18):
the Mississippi, basically. I think it's
a handful of them that are there to
answer questions for horticulture and
entomology. So there's that aspect of the
funding, which is a consequence of the
mergers and the companies not vesting
dollars into new, A-active ingredients
because of a specialty market. And then
there's the aspect of a fewer extension

(47:40):
entomologist because of they're not
refilling the old positions.
Yeah. Wow. And I didn't even think about
it from like a regional type of look. So
do you think that could be going away
from like a state university like Kansas
State and go into more of a federal type

(48:01):
of look or do you think it just starts to
kind of wither on the vine or are you
reaching out to these regional areas just
because you're 1 of the few.
I think that the latter basically it's
not really federal but the fact that I am
the only horticultural specialist in
Kansas per se, and some of the states
like Oklahoma doesn't have 1, Missouri
doesn't have 1, Nebraska may have

(48:23):
rehired, is it's already indirectly being
regionalized. But I think it'll be
formality wise, formal, maybe that would
be like, what do I predict? I think
you'll get like the Midwestern states
saying, okay, this person is, we don't
need to hire anybody in Oklahoma, because
this person in Kansas is is handling it
all. The issue would be like funding, how

(48:44):
do you fund that person? Sure. How do
multiple states who benefit from that?
How would they fund that? There has to be
some way it means where Kansas does not
be responsible for funding the person.
You'd have to be like a joint funding
from the multiple states that the person
is responsible for. But like you said
with the technology, there are no
barriers. So somebody in Maine can email

(49:06):
me about an insect or in Seattle,
Washington. And I'll answer them if I
have time. But they're getting online. I
hear this phone call. I got online and I
found your name under this and that's why
I'm calling you. So the information
itself, the technology is resulting in

(49:27):
this no barriers, no borders. It's
whoever they can get a hold
of.
Exactly. That's all contact.
Sure. Yeah. So this brings up a kind of a
flip question on this and maybe you know
what I'm gonna ask what do we need to do
to rekindle this this change that's
happened because you've obviously laid

(49:49):
out that we need extension agents. We
need extension specialist pathology,
entomology,
whatever. Read science.
The whole, yeah, the whole whole kit and
caboodle. It's changing. The money's
drying up. Do you see any solutions to
rekindle what we have in the first place

(50:09):
that is a really excellent question
because we we discussed that as extension
people you know we we definitely need the
number 1 highlight the value extension to
the administration You know, you and I
and Ryan, and through Ryan Lawn and Tree,
Larry, we talked about this, we need
people to write letters, emails,

(50:31):
indicating to the administration, because
they really have no clue what's going on
in extension per se. And so they need to
know what's the value of extension at
Kansas State University because we're the
stakeholders, we're the clientele group
that these people are reaching and
they're helping us in aspects of
production pest management. You know,

(50:53):
don't cut that per se, but we need to
highlight that value. Because if there's
any budget cuts that come on down, which
it will, extension gets cut because it's
hard to quantify. Sure. Research you get
grants and publications but that's
artificial. Right. In teaching it's
T-valves.
Right.
So but in extension I give out surveys
evaluations to highlight the value of it

(51:15):
but it's not the same It's not the matrix
is not the same as they have for research
and teaching.
Okay.
Yeah. And then the funding aspect is, you
know, providing the funding, whether it
be from associations. I think we only get
like less than 5% from the state for
extension. You know, obviously like
everything the funding is the key, but
also refilling positions in extension. So

(51:39):
it doesn't overburden the people there,
thin them out, and they can't do a
quality job addressing the needs of the
clientele base. Right. Isn't that
interesting? Because we struggle with
that too. I'm in the L&D department.
And what we're always searching for is
quantifying your value to the business.
And that's a really difficult thing to do

(51:59):
from an educational perspective. Because
it's hard to put it on a spreadsheet. And
it's really kind of finding what those
things are to quantify the value, in your
case, to the industry, to the public at
large, to find solutions to problems that
we're dealing with. And I just find that
interesting that those 2 things cross
over because we discussed that at Ryan's

(52:20):
do what is L&D doing to support the
company and we have unique ways of doing
that as well as far as quantifying what
those things are, but kind of the same
things that you're dealing with as well.
Yeah, I think if you take the
relationship we were establishing between
Kansas State and Ryan, Ryan, Lon and Tree
is, you know, Kansas State is providing
educational resources, doing podcasts,

(52:41):
giving talks to help you do a better job
in addressing, in this case, pest
management for your clientele base.
Bingo.
And that will result in more
opportunities for you to get more
clientele, spread the word or whatever.
It'll make you more authentic and it'll
be better for your business.
Sure. Yeah. So here's another question

(53:03):
because you just said, you know, the big
thing is, is showing value and 1 of those
ways of showing value is to reach out to
someone to tell them that, you know, Dr.
Cloyd is really helping us out. Who is
that person that I'm sure industry people
will be listening to us as many do Who is
the person that we need to reach out to?

(53:25):
Really it starts at like the department
head level. Okay, and then also like the
Assistant Dean of extension. Okay, those
people up the chain. Those are the ones
that are would be either my boss or the
boss of the other boss, but those are the
ones that need to hear from the clientele
base to know that it's a value. Because

(53:46):
without that, they're at the mercy of the
budget cuts and extension getting cut
further and further.
So yeah, and their perception of what
that value is too.
Well, yeah, I mean, administrators are in
a different bubble. You know, they're
doing them, but So they really have no
idea what's happening in the trenches. So
letters, emails, any type of support by
that means is going to educate them or

(54:09):
make them aware of what the value of what
extension is at Kansas State University.
Okay. I think we've talked about
everything. We kind of geeked out about,
well, we talked about who you were. We
kind of geeked out about bugs and the
interaction between plants. We talked
about what a specialist is and extension
agent is and how that works with the

(54:30):
land-grant universities and why it's
important to go to that area of knowledge
versus the area of knowledge that you
don't get on your flip phone.
So I
still love
that.
We talked about what you do in your day
to day interactions. We talked about
where you get your funding, what you do

(54:50):
your first far as education and research,
what we need to do to, to help out the
extension department as far as if you all
are outreaching for us, we need to
support what you're doing as well, which
takes some communication and showing that
we find value in what you do. Is there
anything that I missed that you can think
of?
No, those have been really important

(55:12):
points. And I think I want to, you know,
again, reiterate the point is that, you
know, extension right now is extremely
valuable because of the contamination of
internet and all the misinformation,
malinformation, disinformation, MMD,
basically. And if you want to, let's just
say, deal with a problem, you need to go

(55:33):
to a reliable source and that source is
extension in most cases not the internet
because you don't you it's not filtered
it's not regulated and we're there for
people I mean it's where the taxpayer
money part of it goes to that That's why
we do visits for nothing within state,
out state may be different, but the
importance of getting accurate

(55:53):
information, like starting with correct
identification of the insect or mite
pest, sending samples, good images, you
can't do it on the phone. You have to do
a picture's worth a thousand words. We're
here to help people. We put out
newsletters, extension publications. We
just have a new 1 on ticks, excuse me,
mosquitoes in Kansas came out, which is

(56:16):
very much needed. So we're there for the
public to help them to identify the
problem, and then what are the options to
manage it so it does not become a bigger
problem later on.
And I would like to point out too that
those are all based in science, which is
what entomology and horticulture is based

(56:37):
on. So you have to be very careful about
the filter and you all are scientists. So
that's a key concept to that entire
relationship.
Yeah. I mean, we all have PhDs, which of
course piled high and deep or postal
digger, whatever you want to look at. I
mean, but really, I mean, you know, as a
doctor per se, you know, the name is it

(56:57):
means that you've gone through the
process, The scientific process of
understanding how to set up experiments,
how to interpret and analyze the data,
how to interpret the results, and then
how to relate those results with what's
already been done or what needs to be
done in the future, or contradict
something that's already been done. And
maybe because of older technology, Now

(57:19):
we're able to say, well, this is, this is
the real answer that might've been backed
in, but we've got new advances, the
technology tools that allow us to maybe
be more definitive on some of these
answers.
I love it. Well, thank you for your time.
You're very welcome. Thank you. I'd love
to have you back in the future if you'd
absolutely come back. Yeah, absolutely.
And I'm not sure what we'll talk about,

(57:41):
but we'll find 1 subject to talk about
for sure.
So we could go over diagnosis would be 1,
you know, we talked about the or
something. Yeah, There are lots of topics
we get to get into.
Yeah. I love diagnosis and I'd love to
have you back to talk about that for
sure.
We'll do it. Yep.
Thank you for your time. Thanks for
listening to this episode of the Ryan
Lawn and Tree podcast. If you enjoyed

(58:01):
this episode and would like to show your
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(58:22):
little secret we're offering 50% off of
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ryanlawn.com and I'll see you in the next
1.