August 25, 2025 • 46 mins
Bubba Startz welcomes Courtney McKenna, exploring her background and journey to NYC for rock and roll education. The episode traces the evolution of her music career, sharing valuable marketing insights and the role of podcasting in community building. They discuss the adaptation of outdoor concerts and live shows in the COVID era, examining the current LA music scene and industry shifts. Courtney emphasizes the importance of consistency and marketing for artists, alongside changes in artist support and personal definitions of success. The conversation highlights how location influences creativity and the value of community, concluding with ways to connect with Courtney McKenna.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
Welcome in to another exciting episode of thescene.
I'm your host Bubba Starts, and with me todayis singer songwriter and podcast host of the
music is my mantra podcast, Courtney McKenna.
Courtney, welcome to the show.
Hello.
Thank you.
Thanks for having me.
Well, it's a pleasure to reverse the roleshere.
I was a guest on your show recently.
(00:23):
Just released, actually.
I got to listen to it yesterday.
Absolutely loved being on it and lovedlistening back to it.
I forgot how fun the conversation really was.
So looking forward to getting to know moreabout you today, and I can shut the heck up.
You know, I I like to listen to my guests.
It's, you know the stories that they have, it'sit's all part of what makes us who we are.
(00:50):
Right?
So it's yeah.
It's great.
I had a really fun time with you on my show.
And so listeners of the Scene Projects, gocheck it out.
Definitely just interesting similarities andalso just you're a wild card at heart.
I love it.
Well and today, we get to hear about yourstory.
(01:11):
So I guess up to you how far back you wanna go.
But go ahead and give us a little backstory,and then we can talk about all the stuff you're
up to these days.
Alright.
How far back?
I was born in 1988.
I am a marketer as well.
So let's see.
I'm from California originally.
(01:33):
I grew up in Arizona, and my dad was inCalifornia and Hawaii, so I spent a lot of time
between the three different states.
I've always loved music.
I grew up singing in church, and I playedclarinet for eight years, you know, through
school and marching band, which I hated.
(01:54):
But it was, you know, it was also a really funtime looking back, and there were some good
things.
Yeah.
I went out to school, studied marketing andbusiness, and I thought I wanted to work in
fashion.
I didn't really know a lot of musicians, youknow, who were doing music for a career, and I
would my grandpa was an entrepreneur in the carindustry, started the business in the fifties,
(02:15):
family business.
And so I wanted to do entrepreneurship andmarketing.
And I graduated early because I had got reallyburnt out school.
So I was like, get me out of here.
Moved to New York City.
I was there for about a decade.
And really when I got to New York, that's whenI was like, wow.
Cool.
I can start my life now.
(02:36):
I feel like, what do I wanna do?
You know?
And I I like I said, I thought I wanted to workin fashion.
So I was in college doing a lot of sewing andcreating things for people, and I got to New
York.
And I had an intern there, internship workingfor free for a metro card, you know, just
hustling.
And I started dating a musician.
(03:00):
And then I moved into a place that was calledthe Rad Pad, and it was full of musicians.
And I'd to say that's where I got my rock androll education.
It was like a storefront that was, you know,illegally built out into a four bedroom
apartment.
And we had a basement, so we had a practicespace there, and we would throw shows and have
(03:24):
parties and stuff.
And, yeah, you know, that's really New York iswhere I I taught myself guitar.
I started, you know, songwriting.
After four years, I finally got the courage toplay my songs out.
You know, I was playing with other bands andsinging with other groups and stuff, and it's
(03:49):
just been an evolution ever since then.
I moved back to California in 2019, and I havehad multiple lineups of my band since then.
This is probably the sixth lineup.
You know, with COVID and everything, it's justbeen a a really wild roller coaster.
So I'm kind of coming back from actually,Sunday will be my first full band show in a
(04:17):
year and a half with, you know, all new songsand stuff.
So that feels good.
And I I used to play out, like, every singleweekend doing cover gigs and that sort of
thing.
And I've always had a, you know, my marketingbusiness as well.
So I've kind of had the best of both worldsthere.
It's yeah.
It's been it's been a journey on both fronts.
(04:40):
It's it's challenging, I think, to be an artistand to figure out how you're gonna survive
financially.
And so I feel really grateful that I've alwayshad that background, but I always also had a
lot of doubt in myself because I didn'timmediately go into, like, a corporate
marketing job.
You know, I've always worked for these for themost part, I've had some some bigger roles in
(05:02):
the past, like, six years.
But, you know, there's a lot of grassroots.
Like, I worked to start a community art spacein Bushwick in Brooklyn.
Did a a lot of a lot of different gigs in lotsof different industries.
(05:24):
So yeah.
Have you
always had your own kind of marketing firmthen?
You're kinda just doing your own thing, a lotof social media stuff?
Or or what's kind of the basis of yourmarketing company?
Yeah.
I'd say social media has always been somethingthat I've had my pulse on.
You know, initially, when I just got out ofschool, it was like Twitter and Facebook just
(05:47):
became public.
It was like, you know, just for collegestudents when it first came out.
So it's changed so much, and there was alsoresistance in the marketing industry towards
social media because people were still reallyentrenched in, like, traditional marketing
practices, even though the Internet was, like,blowing things up and changing things so
(06:09):
quickly.
And so I think it's it's fascinating because itconnects us in a way that no other time period
has had this opportunity.
But, of course, there's also, like, the sideeffects of it, you know, overwhelm.
And if you use it in the wrong way, it can be,like, pretty toxic.
So, yeah, I've I feel like I've sort of had tofight that a little bit, like, saying, hey,
(06:34):
this is the future.
Like, still to this day, I have clients thataren't fully sold on it because they're like,
but how can you measure it?
And I'm like, well, everything is connected toclicks and links.
And, you know, it's actually like it it'sreally can be a super powerful tool.
And I just you know, I think it's an endlesslearning process because it is constantly
(06:56):
changing.
So.
Well and and we we spoke about it a little bitwhen I was on your show as well, but both of us
being eighties babies, we kinda grew up in theold analog world and have experienced this
massive change as young adults and now askinda, you know, the OGs of a lot of these
(07:18):
scenes now and Yeah.
And have watched it change.
Right?
Well, you know, when when social media kindafirst started, oh, what is this?
And have watched the last decade of, you know,the toxicity that you talked about.
And I think there's an awakening now where werealize what it is, we realize the tools, you
know, kind of the methods are pretty set in.
(07:40):
It's no longer really a new space.
Right?
It's pretty well known how the spaces work, youknow, the the advertising models that are
there, how to use it.
But there's still so many people that are justnot investing in that side at all.
And it's you know, same thing for me is, youknow, especially out here in South Dakota,
(08:01):
there's a lot of businesses that don't evenhave a Facebook page and don't have a lot of
things that you're like, wow.
You are now, like, two decades behind.
Right?
Like, you you we need to get you first up tospeed, and then we can talk about actually
implementing some of these things.
Well, it can be super overwhelming.
You know?
It's just like there's so much being thrown atyou every time you open the app, you know?
(08:25):
And it feels like, oh, is my message reallygonna come through?
And now everything is being flooded with AI, sothere's like a lot of controversy around that,
you know?
Controversy, I don't know.
Yeah.
I it's fascinating to me.
I think it's like a reflection of our culture,and it's a it's a tool.
(08:47):
Like anything else, you know, if you if youdon't have like healthy boundaries around your
how you spend your time, then, like, it couldgo south pretty quickly.
So yeah.
I'm I'm fortunate that I found podcasting.
Yeah.
And now that I have a purpose when I'm online,I don't do a lot of doom scrolling.
(09:10):
Not that I ever did, but with especially withFacebook groups, it became a lot easier to
network.
I was able you know, Facebook startedsegmenting people into these things.
So finding groups that are active and haveactive members and, you know, one that I've
used that's been nothing but a blessing to mewas a podcasters on Facebook.
Facebook group, fifty, sixty thousand peoplestrong now.
(09:33):
Cool.
And you don't even have to know everyone.
I dipped in, was like, hey.
Looking for guests for my show.
Next thing you know, the calendar is full, andit's like, oh, wow.
I only need to dip into this a few times a yearYeah.
Really into this pool of people.
But we talked a lot about community on yourshow as well and and what, you know, the scene
projects are, what your podcast is as well.
(09:53):
Music is my mantra is even if the communitythat you're building doesn't have a huge
listenership, this culture and this communityof artists that you're interviewing, Right?
And, no, no.
I'm not saying that it doesn't have thelistenership, but the fact that you you're able
to have this Yeah.
Well, you have this vessel now, and I know itbecause I've done 200 episodes.
(10:15):
I've done episodes with at least a 150 of thosepeople that I've never met before, right, that
weren't part of my group.
So I've been able to expand my network.
Can you talk about the value of a podcast?
And not just a musician, but really to anybusiness out there that is looking to grow a
community around them.
Yeah.
(10:36):
Well, you know, I think it's not even like, itit's so much broader than just a podcast.
Right?
Like, the thing about the podcast is that itgives you a platform to connect with people,
and that's really, like, I think the foundationof it.
So, like, when I you were talking about, like,you know, before the Internet.
(10:58):
Right?
So to promote shows in New York before theInternet, you would, like, just put flyers
everywhere.
And you get people to, like, go around and handout flyers, come to my show, that sort thing.
Now, it's like, think about it, by connectingin the digital space, you can just you can
connect with so many more people.
And so I think that's the power of podcasting.
(11:18):
But at the next level up is, like, when you'rebuilding a community, it's incredible how if
you go into it with no expectations, like,you're giving a platform to somebody else.
You're giving an opportunity to share theirvoice, to share their music, and the the
(11:42):
reaping of that reward isn't immediate, but italways comes back to you.
So, like, for example, during COVID times wheneverybody was, like, afraid to go outside and
lockdown, I was I had basically just moved toLos Angeles and I was pissed.
I was not happy to be locked inside.
(12:02):
I was like, I live at the beach, like, I'mgonna go out to the beach, like, I'm there's no
way I'm gonna get sick from going to see thewater, like but, you know, they were like
fining people a thousand dollars, and I just Ijust felt like, f this, like and so I started
hosting these outdoor concerts because we havea balcony in our our street here, and my
(12:28):
roommates, they all worked in, like, events andmarketing as well.
So, like, we all moved in together about amonth before lockdowns, and then suddenly, we
all had no jobs.
And so I was like, look, you can't I I don'twanna just like stop living, you know?
And I had plans to start touring and stuff.
I had shows lined up to go back in New YorkCity, and that was like literally the week of
(12:51):
lockdown.
I had to cancel everything.
And so we just like invited the neighbors overand we're like, hey, we have this space.
You can social distance, like be safe,obviously, you know.
But like, let's get together and let's justinvite our friends to play on this outdoor
space.
And so we did that for a year and a half and itwas really just out of, like, we've got time to
(13:15):
organize it and, you know, we have this spaceand it's outside and, like, why not?
So from that series, like we did one concertevery month for, yeah, about a year and a half.
And I met so many incredible artists and likethey invited me to go play at their showcases
later on, you know, and still like theconnections that I've met through that time,
(13:38):
which I had no expectations when I was buildingthat.
I was just like, let's let's just do something,like, you know?
And so I think that's kind of how I've beenapproaching the podcast too.
It's like, I'm just gonna invite people on, andthen I know that down the road, like, it's
gonna build and it might not be how I imagineit to be building, you know?
(14:02):
Like, maybe the podcast won't be the the bigthing that I monetize and, like, go all in on.
But, like, I know that the opportunities willcome back in some form, in some way.
And I think that's just how, you know, the morethat you can, like, give to your community in
that way, it it just makes everything better.
(14:23):
Exactly.
It it becomes a form of service.
And for me, especially, and in theentertainment business just at all.
Right?
That it's a very me centric thing.
Right?
It's very ego driven and very look at me, lookat me, look at me.
And, you know, both of us being marketers makesyou a networker, makes you a people person that
(14:45):
you want to see these other people succeed.
You know?
I don't have exactly the same experience of,you know, living with all of these artists in
the same house, but I've always been surroundedby artists.
And and when I was finally able to kinda turnthat around and go, hey.
This is what I have, and it's for you.
Right?
This is like, yes.
I'm here, but it's really a platform that I'mbuilding to have you come on and tell my
(15:08):
friends about yourself.
Because I can share your music with themonline, but until they kind of meet you, maybe
there's not that same investment.
So it's been a great thing for me and justhaving Ben on your show.
And now that I'm subscribed, I'm sure I'll belistening to a lot more episodes.
But it seems like a lot of the same thing thatyou're like, look, I already know a lot of
(15:30):
people that would be interested in coming on.
I'm always going to meet more.
And now I have this this beautiful show that Ican share, and you just get to have the most
interesting conversations and meet people.
And then, yeah, you you never know theramifications of each and every single episode.
Every episode becomes a seed, and you don'tknow which ones are going to grow and bear
(15:53):
fruit or not.
As long as it's still fun, then we're justgonna keep on planting.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so I'd I love it.
You know?
I I started out my podcast with a couple, like,three the first three months were pretty much
all solo episodes, and I didn't even realize,like, how badly I needed that just to talk
(16:13):
about my story, my music, like, all of theknowledge that I have when it comes to wellness
and that whole side of everything.
So, you know, now I'm like, great.
I feel way more confident because I've sharedmy story, and now I'm just focused on, like,
amplifying other stories of music and wellnessin that intersection that I feel like is really
(16:37):
overlooked.
Definitely.
So you said you got your first full band showcoming up in a year and a half.
You just have to be absolutely thrilled tofinally get back out there and to play some
music.
You know, LA has been through a lot, you know,not just the last five years.
Obviously, the Palisades fire and so much hashappened there.
(16:59):
Riots all the time.
And what is the what's the pulse of the LAmusic scene right now?
You know, I I'm laughing.
I'm not trying to be insensitive to everythingthat's happened, but I the media likes to
amplify the crazy extremes.
You know?
So, like, the day of the last riot slashprotest, I was going down to a friend's show,
(17:27):
and I drove through downtown, and I saw, like,a helicopter, which happens every day.
Like, you know, I didn't see anything.
I obviously, like, I have a very differentstory than other people.
Some people, like, their works got raided and,like, things are happening.
But I just I don't feel like it's really had anegative impact on obviously, there's there's
(17:56):
like pro there's pros and cons and highs andlows to everything.
Right?
It's like, if anything, I think that it doesfeel like there's a creative rebirth happening
here in Los Angeles, and maybe that's just frommy perspective, but, you know, I felt like I've
(18:17):
been sort of disconnected, like I said, fromthe last year and a half.
And I've done some solo shows and that sort ofthing, but just the couple of past few months,
I've, you know, stepped out here and there andlike just have been completely embraced by my
peers.
And I just went to another sold out show lastnight for a friend of mine, V Torres, and she
(18:43):
has a new album coming out.
And like a couple weeks before that, I went toanother sold out show, you know, and I just it
feels like a warm hug.
Like, I just I love it.
I I can't speak for all of Los Angeles.
I think what we're what's happening here in theSouth Bay is, like, very unique.
But I you know, one of the shows that I went toon Thursday last week was at the space that is,
(19:10):
at first and foremost, a mental health spacewhere people can go and get, like, free
counseling.
Venue.
And then the music venue has been so popularthat they had to move the counseling to a
separate room or a separate building, actually.
And now they do shows, and it's, like, allvolunteer.
It's called Scribble, in case anyone's curious.
(19:36):
But, yeah, there's just I think there's a lotof really interesting, cool things starting
out, and, you know, I think Scribble has beenaround for a couple of years now.
It's not like it's brand new, but I thinkbecause of the times that, you know, we've had
to endure, things are starting to flourish.
(19:58):
We see a lot of the and we see a lot of thesame thing kinda happening in Minnesota.
Right?
I mean, Minnesota, Los Angeles, New York, theseare places that had a much different experience
than rural South Dakota did.
So my own lived experience for 2020 to '20 hasbeen I've the best time I've ever had in my
life.
Right?
(20:18):
We never stopped playing gigs, and ourbusinesses have been flourishing.
We didn't experience lockdowns at all.
We hardly wore a mask.
Right?
Like, just a totally different experience.
Right?
Yeah.
And I kind of forget that except when I talkto, you know, a lot of people here and a lot of
guests that we have on the show fromMinneapolis and the Minnesota area that is just
a much different experience.
(20:39):
And now you're seeing what was once thatvibrant, beautiful music scene kinda come back
to life.
Because what happened during that time was thata lot of these venues closed.
A lot of the promoters stopped promoting.
They could they they were they were bankrupted.
Right?
So you lost a lot of the people that weredrivers of the scene.
And now what we see coming back is that there'sa lot more of
(21:02):
It's rebuilding differently.
Yeah.
The the independent.
Right?
The independent people, you have new venueowners, you have new venues with different
ideas of what it is.
You know, it's not all about, you know, theViper rooms and the whiskey, you know, like
those those things are kind of relics.
The Viper room.
Well, yeah, I mean, great rooms.
Right?
Great rooms, but they're almost relics intoday's music scene because all these
(21:28):
alternative spaces have been opened and turnedinto music venues because they already have the
community.
Right?
And I feel like that's kind of the missing partis that now you have venues that are built
around a community and you just have a spacerather than, like, the hot spot.
I don't think people are going out.
Definitely not like they were twenty years ago.
You know?
(21:48):
It it's it's just a different a different sceneoverall.
People are healthier.
The drinking and drugging culture, I feel like,is continuing to to move further and further
away.
And it and it's really about the music,independent artists, songwriters.
Do you feel like the LA music scene I mean,Chris, you'd moved there in '19, so it right as
(22:12):
it plummeted.
But do you feel like it is more independentartists rather than just kind of the top down
industry of what it was kinda traditionally?
Well, you know, one of the reasons like, when Iwas living in New York, I always kept my eye
out on the LA music scene because it's, youknow, it's like where the recording academy is,
(22:41):
like the headquarters.
It's just it's always been sort of the heart ofmusic.
Right?
I mean, obviously, Nashville and New York arehuge too, but I think the indie musician thing
has been building, and it they they had areally thriving scene before COVID here, you
(23:02):
know?
And then now the artists that I used to followare like, oh, the scene's washed up.
Like, what what is the scene, you know?
And I've heard that from a few differentartists that are really into like the whole LA
Hollywood thing.
And I think to your point, it's like things areshifting in that sense where like if you can't
(23:29):
plug into a community or have your own thatyou've been building and cultivating, that's
where maybe you feel left out or something.
Like, I I have never had a chance to ask theseartists in particular, like, what why do you
feel like you need to move somewhere else, youknow?
But I think maybe it's a little bit of, if Iwere to guess, like, just wishing that there
(23:55):
was more being poured into them and moreinspiration, I guess.
But I've always been the type of person where,like, I'm I have no lack of inspiration coming
to me.
You know?
Like, I I've never really cared to followtrends.
Like, I've always been interested in in trendsand fall like, watching them, observing them,
(24:20):
but like I've never really been the type ofperson where I necessarily, like, have to have
the water bottle that everybody else has orlike the whatever, you know.
I usually, I like to I've always like to makemy own clothes.
Like, like to do something just a littledifferent, you know.
(24:40):
And I think maybe that's more of what we'reseeing.
Plus, you know, industry is like dead,honestly.
Like, you can't make money from streaming.
Like, you you can barely make money fromtouring because most of the traditional venues
have these buy ins with the larger, you know,Live Nation or that sort of thing.
(25:01):
So it's like, even if you're a small band andyou get paid, like, $200 a night to open for an
act on tour, let's say, then you might stillhave to give, like, a solid cut of your merch
to the venue because of the rules.
Like, it's just I not that you can't make moneytouring, but for a while, things shifted from,
(25:22):
like, you know, you used to be able to sellCDs.
And then it was like, well, now streamingkilled that, but you can still make money
touring.
And now it's so expensive to tour.
I feel like, you know, unless you're doing,like, a house shows thing and you are plugging
into that community, friends of friends thatare craving live music and something real, it's
(25:42):
like there is this, I think, uprising ofartists that are realizing that, you know, and
people are leaving Spotify.
And well, even you said, you know, you didn'twanna be on Spotify with your music, you know?
And and honestly, I nobody has even heard thatyet.
Right?
Yeah.
And I've already seen two or three of myfriends that are like, I'm done.
Well, because AI is causing their songs to getflagged anyway, and then they're getting taken
(26:07):
down because of bot streams, which they didn'tpay for or do in the first place.
So what's the point?
If it's not working for you, why invest anytime and energy into that and seeing people
kind of reversing that trend?
And I think it's it's our generation that havelived through it.
We grew up.
We were fed a dream.
Hey.
You gotta go to New York.
(26:27):
You gotta go to LA.
You you have to be in these things, and yougotta get seen by industry, and then they're
gonna make you famous.
Well, nobody's around to make you famousanymore.
Right?
Like Yeah.
That that's just not unless you're lucky enoughto to, you know, somehow crack the code and to
get on Joe Rogan's show, right, or or somethinglike that, there is no really big bump that
(26:49):
that comes from really anything.
There's a lot of small ones.
There's a
lot of don't know.
Couple fans.
Right.
What's gonna pop off.
Like, it's like the whole trending things withgoing viral.
Like, you never know what's gonna what peopleare gonna resonate with.
Like, I have a friend Jed, and he's in thisband Feed the Kitty.
And he and my other friend, Jack, went toVegas, and it was Jed's birthday.
(27:16):
And there was he got, like, extra securitychecks, you know, going through the line.
So Jack's there, like, making a video of itjust on the spot and singing happy birthday to
him while he's getting checked by security.
And it's got, like, a 150,000 views in, like,overnight.
And it was just it's like, that has nothing todo with their music, you know?
(27:40):
But that's like what he's going viral for.
And it's brought in some new followers and likeit's just weird.
And like, it's a funny time and I think the ifyou're gonna be an artist and truly speak your
truth through music, through your craft, andreally, like, treat it as a craft and not just
like a hobby and I'll make music with AI orsomething, you know.
(28:01):
It's like there's still this I think people whoare really truly invested in the art, the
artistry of music, like, you have to just makeyour own path in every single sense of it,
like, the sound, through the marketing andconnections, you know.
(28:24):
It's and you never know.
Like, you still might only be heard by, like,15 people on a monthly basis, but it's like, at
some point, something could break through andeverything could change in twenty four hours,
you know?
Well, and I think you listen to a lot ofstories of people who have gone viral Yeah.
(28:45):
That that's exactly what it was.
It was a piece of throwaway content that thatwas sitting around and, oh, crap.
I gotta post something today.
And you reach into the file and you throw itout there, and next thing you know, it's got a
couple million views.
And you're like Yeah.
How did that happen?
Right?
That's for sure, like, the biggest thing thatI've really been trying to practice and also
that I've seen and keep coming back to is thatconsistency, you know?
(29:09):
Whether it's consistency through puttingcontent out and just learning what people
respond to or not, Consistency, like, doingvocal warm ups, like, you know, just taking
care of my instrument.
Consistency, like, once a week giving myselfthe space to write and, like, work on my songs.
(29:32):
You know, it's a it's a long game.
Like, if you're an artist, you really have toput all the desire for, like, financial gain or
anything like that aside because I think inthis day and age, like you said, you you're not
just gonna get discovered, and you really haveto do some soul searching and and commit to
(29:55):
what it is that you wanna build.
And being conscious of it.
I think that is something that has occurred tome over the course of the last two years.
And not that I didn't have a lot of, you know,fans around me, people that have known me most
of my life know that I sing and play music andare doing this, but I never really settled
(30:15):
into, like, well yeah.
But all you people are part of this web of mylife.
And if you all if I had something and allowedyou to support me, I wouldn't have to go and
work and to do those things.
And and I think a struggle for a lot of artistsis the marketing business side of it.
You have to have something to offer.
You have to have whether it's merch or or it'sit's, you know, cameos or or whatever it is,
(30:40):
you have to have something that you're offeringto them all the time in order for them to
support you, to get that.
You you have to have that ask out thereconsistently.
And I think a lot of artists just aren't usedto that kind of that transactional approach.
But without it, nobody's gonna know that youneed it.
(31:01):
Right?
I think all of us kind of sit back and are justlike, oh, yeah.
They're doing fine.
Right?
Oh, they're doing great.
And it's like, no.
We're I could I could be starving tomorrow.
Yeah.
And I need I need this.
I've had people I've I've made this reel indifferent variations multiple times now, but it
always hits.
And it's basically like, you know, people thinkthat I'm out there playing shows and getting
(31:25):
living full time off of my music because I'mout there every night doing something.
But, like, in reality, I'm making, like, a $100a week from music, you know?
And or, like, I don't know.
It's it it varies.
It it fluctuates.
It's not always the case.
But compared to, like, what I make from mymarketing clients, it's just it's totally it
(31:47):
it's not but that's, like, what I love.
That's what I wanna show.
So I've been trying to be more intentionalabout showing, like, what I do when I'm not
making music, because there's so much that I dothat I'm when I'm not making music.
But, you know, back to your point, it's like, Ithink when artists feel uncomfortable to to ask
for what they need, it's it's very common.
(32:11):
And I think we are being pushed to think of ourcraft as more of a business in that way, you
know?
And that can be really intimidating for peoplebecause if they haven't had any experience or
exposure to entrepreneurship or people thathave built something and done it in a way with
(32:31):
integrity, then I think a lot of people getturned off and scared immediately because
they're like, I'm not a business owner.
I'm an artist.
You know?
But it's like, oh, to be an artist, you stillhave to be pretty savvy because even like
painters or sculptors, like they have to selltheir work, you know?
It's not just, it's not just the musicindustry.
(32:53):
Yeah.
And maybe fifty or even forty years ago, heck,even thirty years ago, you could do that.
You know?
You could be a Kurt Cobain and, like, no.
I'm just gonna be a songwriter and Yeah.
But you don't have that industry isn't therefor artists anymore.
Art is a commodity now.
It's been completely oversaturated.
It's been all the artists have been takenadvantage of for the last ten years especially,
(33:17):
And it it's forced us to take it upon ourselvesto change the way things are done.
You know?
We we are out here the ones who are starving.
The the Spotifys of the world and some of thesemajor labels, they're not the ones who are
struggling.
They were just throwing money away anyway.
Right?
(33:37):
Hoping for one hit.
You know?
How many bands get cut every year ortraditionally used to get cut?
Now you don't get signed unless you've goneviral and you've already gotten a huge
following.
If you get signed to a major label, there's,like, an insane stat that 80 or 90% of bands
get dropped after the first year, after theyget signed.
(33:59):
I I don't remember the number off the top of myhead, but, like, it's alarming.
You know?
And I think that is just if we could just havethis shift of, like, thinking that it's
overwhelming to recognizing how empowering itis to be fully in charge of our career and
(34:22):
destiny.
Like, of course, it might feel overwhelming.
It's a big responsibility, you know, but it'slike just what is one small thing I can do
today to move me closer to my goal?
Like, just it little steps.
Like, doesn't have to be hours of marketingevery day, you know?
(34:42):
Like, I feel like I do every day.
That's why
laughing.
You know,
but I'm doing it for other clients.
Like, even when I sit down and I'm planning myown content, I struggle.
Like, it's so much easier for me to do it forother people, you know?
But I'm working on it.
(35:04):
And it's a lot of trial and error and there'sbut there are a lot of good resources out there
to to help, you know?
I know you mentioned that you were you foundIndie Indiepreneur.
Yeah.
I actually hadn't even heard of that.
So I Really?
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
They're awesome.
And what they have is a a great course basedsystem.
(35:26):
Right?
And, you know, they call theirs the buddysystem, which is exactly what we're talking
about.
Right?
And using social media marketing to go findyour 30%.
Right?
Go find the people that like you and forgetabout the rest of them.
And they've had so many people that have usedtheir system and gone through their trainings
and are living a successful career.
(35:47):
Some of them have gone viral.
They've gone on to international tours andthings like that.
Yeah.
But a lot of people are just able we all havedifferent ideas of what success is anyway.
So just go find your success.
For me, if I can find a way that this maintainsfor the next couple of decades and I just get
to keep showing up at all the coolest placesand getting to know the coolest people in the
(36:09):
room, well, then this this has been a verysuccessful career path.
Yeah.
I think you you definitely if you can definewhat success means to you, that is huge.
Because without that, you're just gonna bechasing something that somebody else told you
is the thing to do.
You know?
So, again, it's like, it's coming back to thatwho am I?
What do I want?
(36:30):
What are my goals?
And I think it it's just so common for peopleto not think about those things because, like,
in school, we're taught, like, math instead of,like, what are, you know, what are ways that I
can plan for my future financially?
Or, like, should I have a savings account?
Or, you know, like, basics basic adulting.
(36:50):
There should be adulting one zero one.
Yeah.
I need to sign up for that one.
It should be free.
Right.
Right.
Well and I think that it's definitely thisgeneration, our generation.
You know, I'm raising my kids much differentlythan I was raised, and I think that's gonna pay
(37:14):
a lot of dividends twenty years down the road.
And I think if both of us continue to do asmuch as we can using our platforms to educate
people and to put it out there and supportother artists, then we're going to change our
worlds.
We're going to change the world that's aroundus that we see every day.
Kinda what you were talking For me, I saw Ihear LA, and granted LA is a lot bigger than
(37:37):
anybody, can ever give a credit for unless youlive there and you're aware of it.
But, you know, outwardly, we think of LosAngeles, and you're thinking the things that
you're seeing on the news.
That's kind of the first thing that come tomind.
But your life around the South Bay and in thatsmall cluster, you're like, I don't really
well, I'm not I don't see that at all.
That's not part of my world.
(37:58):
And I've I've forgotten that.
Right?
It's been a long time since I've been back inCalifornia, but I never went East Of The 405.
I was on the beach, and that was it.
And Yeah.
You know, right on Highway 1.
You know?
And I I just it it's very easy to live in asmall world even though you live in one of the
(38:21):
biggest cities in the world.
Yeah.
And I'm sure New York was the same way for youas well.
You know, New York, you just can't get awayfrom people.
Like, in the best way and sometimes the worstway, you know?
It's like but more so in the best way, I Ithink.
(38:43):
It's like, I I would walk down the street andjust, like, randomly be running into people all
the time.
And it was really easy just to, like, gosomewhere and be around people and meet new
friends or meet people.
Like, you could have you could go out everynight and just run into a whole new crowd of
people, like, suddenly they're your friends andthen you're just, like, having this whole
(39:04):
experience for, you know, eight hours goingaround.
Like, New York is just wild.
But I think what I found when I moved here is,like, it's a lot more isolating because it is
everything is spread out.
Like, most people don't take publictransportation.
We, like, just got a subway last year.
(39:27):
You know?
I mean, pretty much, like, there's been one,but they just connected it to the airport.
And what year is it?
Like, 2025.
Like, there's no other major city in the worldthat doesn't have public transportation, like,
the lack thereof, like Los Angeles.
So it's just it is very unique, you know.
(39:48):
You could drive, like, all the way down to SanDiego and except for the air force base,
there's just, like, neighborhood afterneighborhood after neighborhood.
And, you know, it's kind of Orange County too.
It's like there's little pockets and everythinghas its own little vibe in different
communities, and you spend so much time in yourcar.
(40:10):
It's like your own little bubble.
You know?
But, yeah, I I feel like a lot healthier herebecause I do feel like I have more time to
think, and I have more time in nature.
Like, I you slipped by a park in Brooklyn,McCarran Park, and that was, like, my saving
grace, honestly.
(40:31):
You know, like, my little patch of green space.
And then, yeah, I'd, like, go to the water bythe Hudson River, and that was nice and stuff.
But it's just it's totally different there.
Yeah.
I've never been to New York City.
I'm sure I will visit at some point one day
Yeah.
Probably with without my wife.
(40:52):
She has no interest in big cities and thatwhatsoever.
You know?
The culture shock is just too much.
Right?
You know, you talk about trying to find littlebits of space here and there.
We're surrounded by space.
Right?
Like, there's nothing but open space around mefor hours and hours and hours.
Yeah.
And it leaves me vice versa craving thatconnection with other people.
(41:15):
And granted the Internet is great.
I'm able to connect.
We can talk on Zoom and and have thatexperience, but nothing beats, being, in in the
space together.
Right?
And and having that community around you.
And like I said, I'm so thankful for podcastingbecause it's allowed me to just show up with a
(41:37):
microphone and to kind of be, hey.
I'm here, and and this is what I do.
And I just wanna capture you doing what it isthat you do and kinda archiving all of this at
the very least for myself to to have something,you know, on the latter years of my life to
look back and to have these memories and allthe all these people that I got to meet in my
(41:59):
life.
I have a record of this now.
And I think that's really cool, and it'ssomething that we kind of forget about as
podcasters or as artists that we live a charmedlife.
And we really do so much more than than, youknow, a a regular person who has a career that
they stick at for forty years and doing thesame thing with the same people and then having
(42:23):
little glimpses into different life, whetherthat's a vacation or things like that, we were
really in that space pretty consistently.
Right?
Even if you're only playing out once a month.
Yeah.
You know, I think that there's, like, somethingreally beautiful about that that type of
lifestyle where you do just have the same joband the same people and the same thing.
(42:45):
But it's obviously becoming more and more rare,and I think that's why it's it's really it
could it just doesn't happen as much anymore.
Right?
And I I think that the part of that is becausethere is this longing for more in life and,
like, greater meaning, and and that's maybe theconnection that you're talking about is, like,
(43:11):
we the more that we connect with people, we getto see more sides of ourselves, and we get to
experience more aspects of ourselves.
And when you're just seeing the same peopleevery single day, like, it doesn't mean that
you're missing out.
(43:32):
Like, you could totally be happy doing that,and you could have really deep, meaningful
relationships with the people in your life andexplore in that way, you know?
But I just think that it's more rare to findthat.
And yeah, I I do feel really lucky.
(43:52):
I think it's one thing that I wanna challengemyself with, you know, in the future is really,
like, deepening.
Like, when you're in a place where you aredoing the same job, same people, that kind of
lifestyle like you're talking about, I I thinkit's not a given that you have those deep
(44:13):
relationships, but it's like, in my mind, it'slike a a marriage.
Right?
Like, you you're committed to it, and so you'regoing, like, deeper with that person and with
yourself.
And, like, with every challenge that comes up,you have more to learn and discover.
And so when you're from my experience, when youare just going meeting new people all the time,
(44:40):
sometimes you can miss out on that depthbecause you're just doesn't mean you you're not
having deep conversations, but a lot of timeswhen you're just getting to know somebody, you
don't go deep right away.
Right?
So, yeah, my challenge my my goal, I guess, isto challenge myself to find that depth.
(45:01):
Whether it's in the conversations like this orjust day to day, I think that's people are
yeah.
It can be it can be scary to go there.
Right?
So
Well, Courtney, I've taken up plenty of yourtime today already.
Where can people go deeper with you and findout more about you?
(45:23):
Thank you.
I'm on Instagram mostly at Courtney McKenna,and you can listen to my podcast at
musicismymantra.com or follow my YouTube whereI have music and the podcast.
And, yeah, courtneymckenna.rocks is my website.
So if you wanna learn more about my marketingor anything like that, definitely reach out.
(45:48):
I love to help brainstorm ideas and, you know,have, yeah, have conversations with people.
So I'm around.
Well, I can honestly say that the two hoursthat I've got to spend with you have been two
of the most interesting and fun conversationsthat I've got to have this year and maybe in my
life.
(46:08):
So thank you, Courtney, for being on my show,and thanks for being part of the scene.
My pleasure.
Thanks for having me.
Welcome in to another exciting episode of thescene.
I'm your host Bubba Starts, and with me todayis singer songwriter and podcast host of the
music is my mantra podcast, Courtney McKenna.
Courtney, welcome to the show.
Hello.
Thank you.
Thanks for having me.
Well, it's a pleasure to reverse the roleshere.
I was a guest on your show recently.
(00:23):
Just released, actually.
I got to listen to it yesterday.
Absolutely loved being on it and lovedlistening back to it.
I forgot how fun the conversation really was.
So looking forward to getting to know moreabout you today, and I can shut the heck up.
You know, I I like to listen to my guests.
It's, you know the stories that they have, it'sit's all part of what makes us who we are.
(00:50):
Right?
So it's yeah.
It's great.
I had a really fun time with you on my show.
And so listeners of the Scene Projects, gocheck it out.
Definitely just interesting similarities andalso just you're a wild card at heart.
I love it.
Well and today, we get to hear about yourstory.
(01:11):
So I guess up to you how far back you wanna go.
But go ahead and give us a little backstory,and then we can talk about all the stuff you're
up to these days.
Alright.
How far back?
I was born in 1988.
I am a marketer as well.
So let's see.
I'm from California originally.
(01:33):
I grew up in Arizona, and my dad was inCalifornia and Hawaii, so I spent a lot of time
between the three different states.
I've always loved music.
I grew up singing in church, and I playedclarinet for eight years, you know, through
school and marching band, which I hated.
(01:54):
But it was, you know, it was also a really funtime looking back, and there were some good
things.
Yeah.
I went out to school, studied marketing andbusiness, and I thought I wanted to work in
fashion.
I didn't really know a lot of musicians, youknow, who were doing music for a career, and I
would my grandpa was an entrepreneur in the carindustry, started the business in the fifties,
(02:15):
family business.
And so I wanted to do entrepreneurship andmarketing.
And I graduated early because I had got reallyburnt out school.
So I was like, get me out of here.
Moved to New York City.
I was there for about a decade.
And really when I got to New York, that's whenI was like, wow.
Cool.
I can start my life now.
(02:36):
I feel like, what do I wanna do?
You know?
And I I like I said, I thought I wanted to workin fashion.
So I was in college doing a lot of sewing andcreating things for people, and I got to New
York.
And I had an intern there, internship workingfor free for a metro card, you know, just
hustling.
And I started dating a musician.
(03:00):
And then I moved into a place that was calledthe Rad Pad, and it was full of musicians.
And I'd to say that's where I got my rock androll education.
It was like a storefront that was, you know,illegally built out into a four bedroom
apartment.
And we had a basement, so we had a practicespace there, and we would throw shows and have
(03:24):
parties and stuff.
And, yeah, you know, that's really New York iswhere I I taught myself guitar.
I started, you know, songwriting.
After four years, I finally got the courage toplay my songs out.
You know, I was playing with other bands andsinging with other groups and stuff, and it's
(03:49):
just been an evolution ever since then.
I moved back to California in 2019, and I havehad multiple lineups of my band since then.
This is probably the sixth lineup.
You know, with COVID and everything, it's justbeen a a really wild roller coaster.
So I'm kind of coming back from actually,Sunday will be my first full band show in a
(04:17):
year and a half with, you know, all new songsand stuff.
So that feels good.
And I I used to play out, like, every singleweekend doing cover gigs and that sort of
thing.
And I've always had a, you know, my marketingbusiness as well.
So I've kind of had the best of both worldsthere.
It's yeah.
It's been it's been a journey on both fronts.
(04:40):
It's it's challenging, I think, to be an artistand to figure out how you're gonna survive
financially.
And so I feel really grateful that I've alwayshad that background, but I always also had a
lot of doubt in myself because I didn'timmediately go into, like, a corporate
marketing job.
You know, I've always worked for these for themost part, I've had some some bigger roles in
(05:02):
the past, like, six years.
But, you know, there's a lot of grassroots.
Like, I worked to start a community art spacein Bushwick in Brooklyn.
Did a a lot of a lot of different gigs in lotsof different industries.
(05:24):
So yeah.
Have you
always had your own kind of marketing firmthen?
You're kinda just doing your own thing, a lotof social media stuff?
Or or what's kind of the basis of yourmarketing company?
Yeah.
I'd say social media has always been somethingthat I've had my pulse on.
You know, initially, when I just got out ofschool, it was like Twitter and Facebook just
(05:47):
became public.
It was like, you know, just for collegestudents when it first came out.
So it's changed so much, and there was alsoresistance in the marketing industry towards
social media because people were still reallyentrenched in, like, traditional marketing
practices, even though the Internet was, like,blowing things up and changing things so
(06:09):
quickly.
And so I think it's it's fascinating because itconnects us in a way that no other time period
has had this opportunity.
But, of course, there's also, like, the sideeffects of it, you know, overwhelm.
And if you use it in the wrong way, it can be,like, pretty toxic.
So, yeah, I've I feel like I've sort of had tofight that a little bit, like, saying, hey,
(06:34):
this is the future.
Like, still to this day, I have clients thataren't fully sold on it because they're like,
but how can you measure it?
And I'm like, well, everything is connected toclicks and links.
And, you know, it's actually like it it'sreally can be a super powerful tool.
And I just you know, I think it's an endlesslearning process because it is constantly
(06:56):
changing.
So.
Well and and we we spoke about it a little bitwhen I was on your show as well, but both of us
being eighties babies, we kinda grew up in theold analog world and have experienced this
massive change as young adults and now askinda, you know, the OGs of a lot of these
(07:18):
scenes now and Yeah.
And have watched it change.
Right?
Well, you know, when when social media kindafirst started, oh, what is this?
And have watched the last decade of, you know,the toxicity that you talked about.
And I think there's an awakening now where werealize what it is, we realize the tools, you
know, kind of the methods are pretty set in.
(07:40):
It's no longer really a new space.
Right?
It's pretty well known how the spaces work, youknow, the the advertising models that are
there, how to use it.
But there's still so many people that are justnot investing in that side at all.
And it's you know, same thing for me is, youknow, especially out here in South Dakota,
(08:01):
there's a lot of businesses that don't evenhave a Facebook page and don't have a lot of
things that you're like, wow.
You are now, like, two decades behind.
Right?
Like, you you we need to get you first up tospeed, and then we can talk about actually
implementing some of these things.
Well, it can be super overwhelming.
You know?
It's just like there's so much being thrown atyou every time you open the app, you know?
(08:25):
And it feels like, oh, is my message reallygonna come through?
And now everything is being flooded with AI, sothere's like a lot of controversy around that,
you know?
Controversy, I don't know.
Yeah.
I it's fascinating to me.
I think it's like a reflection of our culture,and it's a it's a tool.
(08:47):
Like anything else, you know, if you if youdon't have like healthy boundaries around your
how you spend your time, then, like, it couldgo south pretty quickly.
So yeah.
I'm I'm fortunate that I found podcasting.
Yeah.
And now that I have a purpose when I'm online,I don't do a lot of doom scrolling.
(09:10):
Not that I ever did, but with especially withFacebook groups, it became a lot easier to
network.
I was able you know, Facebook startedsegmenting people into these things.
So finding groups that are active and haveactive members and, you know, one that I've
used that's been nothing but a blessing to mewas a podcasters on Facebook.
Facebook group, fifty, sixty thousand peoplestrong now.
(09:33):
Cool.
And you don't even have to know everyone.
I dipped in, was like, hey.
Looking for guests for my show.
Next thing you know, the calendar is full, andit's like, oh, wow.
I only need to dip into this a few times a yearYeah.
Really into this pool of people.
But we talked a lot about community on yourshow as well and and what, you know, the scene
projects are, what your podcast is as well.
(09:53):
Music is my mantra is even if the communitythat you're building doesn't have a huge
listenership, this culture and this communityof artists that you're interviewing, Right?
And, no, no.
I'm not saying that it doesn't have thelistenership, but the fact that you you're able
to have this Yeah.
Well, you have this vessel now, and I know itbecause I've done 200 episodes.
(10:15):
I've done episodes with at least a 150 of thosepeople that I've never met before, right, that
weren't part of my group.
So I've been able to expand my network.
Can you talk about the value of a podcast?
And not just a musician, but really to anybusiness out there that is looking to grow a
community around them.
Yeah.
(10:36):
Well, you know, I think it's not even like, itit's so much broader than just a podcast.
Right?
Like, the thing about the podcast is that itgives you a platform to connect with people,
and that's really, like, I think the foundationof it.
So, like, when I you were talking about, like,you know, before the Internet.
(10:58):
Right?
So to promote shows in New York before theInternet, you would, like, just put flyers
everywhere.
And you get people to, like, go around and handout flyers, come to my show, that sort thing.
Now, it's like, think about it, by connectingin the digital space, you can just you can
connect with so many more people.
And so I think that's the power of podcasting.
(11:18):
But at the next level up is, like, when you'rebuilding a community, it's incredible how if
you go into it with no expectations, like,you're giving a platform to somebody else.
You're giving an opportunity to share theirvoice, to share their music, and the the
(11:42):
reaping of that reward isn't immediate, but italways comes back to you.
So, like, for example, during COVID times wheneverybody was, like, afraid to go outside and
lockdown, I was I had basically just moved toLos Angeles and I was pissed.
I was not happy to be locked inside.
(12:02):
I was like, I live at the beach, like, I'mgonna go out to the beach, like, I'm there's no
way I'm gonna get sick from going to see thewater, like but, you know, they were like
fining people a thousand dollars, and I just Ijust felt like, f this, like and so I started
hosting these outdoor concerts because we havea balcony in our our street here, and my
(12:28):
roommates, they all worked in, like, events andmarketing as well.
So, like, we all moved in together about amonth before lockdowns, and then suddenly, we
all had no jobs.
And so I was like, look, you can't I I don'twanna just like stop living, you know?
And I had plans to start touring and stuff.
I had shows lined up to go back in New YorkCity, and that was like literally the week of
(12:51):
lockdown.
I had to cancel everything.
And so we just like invited the neighbors overand we're like, hey, we have this space.
You can social distance, like be safe,obviously, you know.
But like, let's get together and let's justinvite our friends to play on this outdoor
space.
And so we did that for a year and a half and itwas really just out of, like, we've got time to
(13:15):
organize it and, you know, we have this spaceand it's outside and, like, why not?
So from that series, like we did one concertevery month for, yeah, about a year and a half.
And I met so many incredible artists and likethey invited me to go play at their showcases
later on, you know, and still like theconnections that I've met through that time,
(13:38):
which I had no expectations when I was buildingthat.
I was just like, let's let's just do something,like, you know?
And so I think that's kind of how I've beenapproaching the podcast too.
It's like, I'm just gonna invite people on, andthen I know that down the road, like, it's
gonna build and it might not be how I imagineit to be building, you know?
(14:02):
Like, maybe the podcast won't be the the bigthing that I monetize and, like, go all in on.
But, like, I know that the opportunities willcome back in some form, in some way.
And I think that's just how, you know, the morethat you can, like, give to your community in
that way, it it just makes everything better.
(14:23):
Exactly.
It it becomes a form of service.
And for me, especially, and in theentertainment business just at all.
Right?
That it's a very me centric thing.
Right?
It's very ego driven and very look at me, lookat me, look at me.
And, you know, both of us being marketers makesyou a networker, makes you a people person that
(14:45):
you want to see these other people succeed.
You know?
I don't have exactly the same experience of,you know, living with all of these artists in
the same house, but I've always been surroundedby artists.
And and when I was finally able to kinda turnthat around and go, hey.
This is what I have, and it's for you.
Right?
This is like, yes.
I'm here, but it's really a platform that I'mbuilding to have you come on and tell my
(15:08):
friends about yourself.
Because I can share your music with themonline, but until they kind of meet you, maybe
there's not that same investment.
So it's been a great thing for me and justhaving Ben on your show.
And now that I'm subscribed, I'm sure I'll belistening to a lot more episodes.
But it seems like a lot of the same thing thatyou're like, look, I already know a lot of
(15:30):
people that would be interested in coming on.
I'm always going to meet more.
And now I have this this beautiful show that Ican share, and you just get to have the most
interesting conversations and meet people.
And then, yeah, you you never know theramifications of each and every single episode.
Every episode becomes a seed, and you don'tknow which ones are going to grow and bear
(15:53):
fruit or not.
As long as it's still fun, then we're justgonna keep on planting.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so I'd I love it.
You know?
I I started out my podcast with a couple, like,three the first three months were pretty much
all solo episodes, and I didn't even realize,like, how badly I needed that just to talk
(16:13):
about my story, my music, like, all of theknowledge that I have when it comes to wellness
and that whole side of everything.
So, you know, now I'm like, great.
I feel way more confident because I've sharedmy story, and now I'm just focused on, like,
amplifying other stories of music and wellnessin that intersection that I feel like is really
(16:37):
overlooked.
Definitely.
So you said you got your first full band showcoming up in a year and a half.
You just have to be absolutely thrilled tofinally get back out there and to play some
music.
You know, LA has been through a lot, you know,not just the last five years.
Obviously, the Palisades fire and so much hashappened there.
(16:59):
Riots all the time.
And what is the what's the pulse of the LAmusic scene right now?
You know, I I'm laughing.
I'm not trying to be insensitive to everythingthat's happened, but I the media likes to
amplify the crazy extremes.
You know?
So, like, the day of the last riot slashprotest, I was going down to a friend's show,
(17:27):
and I drove through downtown, and I saw, like,a helicopter, which happens every day.
Like, you know, I didn't see anything.
I obviously, like, I have a very differentstory than other people.
Some people, like, their works got raided and,like, things are happening.
But I just I don't feel like it's really had anegative impact on obviously, there's there's
(17:56):
like pro there's pros and cons and highs andlows to everything.
Right?
It's like, if anything, I think that it doesfeel like there's a creative rebirth happening
here in Los Angeles, and maybe that's just frommy perspective, but, you know, I felt like I've
(18:17):
been sort of disconnected, like I said, fromthe last year and a half.
And I've done some solo shows and that sort ofthing, but just the couple of past few months,
I've, you know, stepped out here and there andlike just have been completely embraced by my
peers.
And I just went to another sold out show lastnight for a friend of mine, V Torres, and she
(18:43):
has a new album coming out.
And like a couple weeks before that, I went toanother sold out show, you know, and I just it
feels like a warm hug.
Like, I just I love it.
I I can't speak for all of Los Angeles.
I think what we're what's happening here in theSouth Bay is, like, very unique.
But I you know, one of the shows that I went toon Thursday last week was at the space that is,
(19:10):
at first and foremost, a mental health spacewhere people can go and get, like, free
counseling.
Venue.
And then the music venue has been so popularthat they had to move the counseling to a
separate room or a separate building, actually.
And now they do shows, and it's, like, allvolunteer.
It's called Scribble, in case anyone's curious.
(19:36):
But, yeah, there's just I think there's a lotof really interesting, cool things starting
out, and, you know, I think Scribble has beenaround for a couple of years now.
It's not like it's brand new, but I thinkbecause of the times that, you know, we've had
to endure, things are starting to flourish.
(19:58):
We see a lot of the and we see a lot of thesame thing kinda happening in Minnesota.
Right?
I mean, Minnesota, Los Angeles, New York, theseare places that had a much different experience
than rural South Dakota did.
So my own lived experience for 2020 to '20 hasbeen I've the best time I've ever had in my
life.
Right?
(20:18):
We never stopped playing gigs, and ourbusinesses have been flourishing.
We didn't experience lockdowns at all.
We hardly wore a mask.
Right?
Like, just a totally different experience.
Right?
Yeah.
And I kind of forget that except when I talkto, you know, a lot of people here and a lot of
guests that we have on the show fromMinneapolis and the Minnesota area that is just
a much different experience.
(20:39):
And now you're seeing what was once thatvibrant, beautiful music scene kinda come back
to life.
Because what happened during that time was thata lot of these venues closed.
A lot of the promoters stopped promoting.
They could they they were they were bankrupted.
Right?
So you lost a lot of the people that weredrivers of the scene.
And now what we see coming back is that there'sa lot more of
(21:02):
It's rebuilding differently.
Yeah.
The the independent.
Right?
The independent people, you have new venueowners, you have new venues with different
ideas of what it is.
You know, it's not all about, you know, theViper rooms and the whiskey, you know, like
those those things are kind of relics.
The Viper room.
Well, yeah, I mean, great rooms.
Right?
Great rooms, but they're almost relics intoday's music scene because all these
(21:28):
alternative spaces have been opened and turnedinto music venues because they already have the
community.
Right?
And I feel like that's kind of the missing partis that now you have venues that are built
around a community and you just have a spacerather than, like, the hot spot.
I don't think people are going out.
Definitely not like they were twenty years ago.
You know?
(21:48):
It it's it's just a different a different sceneoverall.
People are healthier.
The drinking and drugging culture, I feel like,is continuing to to move further and further
away.
And it and it's really about the music,independent artists, songwriters.
Do you feel like the LA music scene I mean,Chris, you'd moved there in '19, so it right as
(22:12):
it plummeted.
But do you feel like it is more independentartists rather than just kind of the top down
industry of what it was kinda traditionally?
Well, you know, one of the reasons like, when Iwas living in New York, I always kept my eye
out on the LA music scene because it's, youknow, it's like where the recording academy is,
(22:41):
like the headquarters.
It's just it's always been sort of the heart ofmusic.
Right?
I mean, obviously, Nashville and New York arehuge too, but I think the indie musician thing
has been building, and it they they had areally thriving scene before COVID here, you
(23:02):
know?
And then now the artists that I used to followare like, oh, the scene's washed up.
Like, what what is the scene, you know?
And I've heard that from a few differentartists that are really into like the whole LA
Hollywood thing.
And I think to your point, it's like things areshifting in that sense where like if you can't
(23:29):
plug into a community or have your own thatyou've been building and cultivating, that's
where maybe you feel left out or something.
Like, I I have never had a chance to ask theseartists in particular, like, what why do you
feel like you need to move somewhere else, youknow?
But I think maybe it's a little bit of, if Iwere to guess, like, just wishing that there
(23:55):
was more being poured into them and moreinspiration, I guess.
But I've always been the type of person where,like, I'm I have no lack of inspiration coming
to me.
You know?
Like, I I've never really cared to followtrends.
Like, I've always been interested in in trendsand fall like, watching them, observing them,
(24:20):
but like I've never really been the type ofperson where I necessarily, like, have to have
the water bottle that everybody else has orlike the whatever, you know.
I usually, I like to I've always like to makemy own clothes.
Like, like to do something just a littledifferent, you know.
(24:40):
And I think maybe that's more of what we'reseeing.
Plus, you know, industry is like dead,honestly.
Like, you can't make money from streaming.
Like, you you can barely make money fromtouring because most of the traditional venues
have these buy ins with the larger, you know,Live Nation or that sort of thing.
(25:01):
So it's like, even if you're a small band andyou get paid, like, $200 a night to open for an
act on tour, let's say, then you might stillhave to give, like, a solid cut of your merch
to the venue because of the rules.
Like, it's just I not that you can't make moneytouring, but for a while, things shifted from,
(25:22):
like, you know, you used to be able to sellCDs.
And then it was like, well, now streamingkilled that, but you can still make money
touring.
And now it's so expensive to tour.
I feel like, you know, unless you're doing,like, a house shows thing and you are plugging
into that community, friends of friends thatare craving live music and something real, it's
(25:42):
like there is this, I think, uprising ofartists that are realizing that, you know, and
people are leaving Spotify.
And well, even you said, you know, you didn'twanna be on Spotify with your music, you know?
And and honestly, I nobody has even heard thatyet.
Right?
Yeah.
And I've already seen two or three of myfriends that are like, I'm done.
Well, because AI is causing their songs to getflagged anyway, and then they're getting taken
(26:07):
down because of bot streams, which they didn'tpay for or do in the first place.
So what's the point?
If it's not working for you, why invest anytime and energy into that and seeing people
kind of reversing that trend?
And I think it's it's our generation that havelived through it.
We grew up.
We were fed a dream.
Hey.
You gotta go to New York.
(26:27):
You gotta go to LA.
You you have to be in these things, and yougotta get seen by industry, and then they're
gonna make you famous.
Well, nobody's around to make you famousanymore.
Right?
Like Yeah.
That that's just not unless you're lucky enoughto to, you know, somehow crack the code and to
get on Joe Rogan's show, right, or or somethinglike that, there is no really big bump that
(26:49):
that comes from really anything.
There's a lot of small ones.
There's a
lot of don't know.
Couple fans.
Right.
What's gonna pop off.
Like, it's like the whole trending things withgoing viral.
Like, you never know what's gonna what peopleare gonna resonate with.
Like, I have a friend Jed, and he's in thisband Feed the Kitty.
And he and my other friend, Jack, went toVegas, and it was Jed's birthday.
(27:16):
And there was he got, like, extra securitychecks, you know, going through the line.
So Jack's there, like, making a video of itjust on the spot and singing happy birthday to
him while he's getting checked by security.
And it's got, like, a 150,000 views in, like,overnight.
And it was just it's like, that has nothing todo with their music, you know?
(27:40):
But that's like what he's going viral for.
And it's brought in some new followers and likeit's just weird.
And like, it's a funny time and I think the ifyou're gonna be an artist and truly speak your
truth through music, through your craft, andreally, like, treat it as a craft and not just
like a hobby and I'll make music with AI orsomething, you know.
(28:01):
It's like there's still this I think people whoare really truly invested in the art, the
artistry of music, like, you have to just makeyour own path in every single sense of it,
like, the sound, through the marketing andconnections, you know.
(28:24):
It's and you never know.
Like, you still might only be heard by, like,15 people on a monthly basis, but it's like, at
some point, something could break through andeverything could change in twenty four hours,
you know?
Well, and I think you listen to a lot ofstories of people who have gone viral Yeah.
(28:45):
That that's exactly what it was.
It was a piece of throwaway content that thatwas sitting around and, oh, crap.
I gotta post something today.
And you reach into the file and you throw itout there, and next thing you know, it's got a
couple million views.
And you're like Yeah.
How did that happen?
Right?
That's for sure, like, the biggest thing thatI've really been trying to practice and also
that I've seen and keep coming back to is thatconsistency, you know?
(29:09):
Whether it's consistency through puttingcontent out and just learning what people
respond to or not, Consistency, like, doingvocal warm ups, like, you know, just taking
care of my instrument.
Consistency, like, once a week giving myselfthe space to write and, like, work on my songs.
(29:32):
You know, it's a it's a long game.
Like, if you're an artist, you really have toput all the desire for, like, financial gain or
anything like that aside because I think inthis day and age, like you said, you you're not
just gonna get discovered, and you really haveto do some soul searching and and commit to
(29:55):
what it is that you wanna build.
And being conscious of it.
I think that is something that has occurred tome over the course of the last two years.
And not that I didn't have a lot of, you know,fans around me, people that have known me most
of my life know that I sing and play music andare doing this, but I never really settled
(30:15):
into, like, well yeah.
But all you people are part of this web of mylife.
And if you all if I had something and allowedyou to support me, I wouldn't have to go and
work and to do those things.
And and I think a struggle for a lot of artistsis the marketing business side of it.
You have to have something to offer.
You have to have whether it's merch or or it'sit's, you know, cameos or or whatever it is,
(30:40):
you have to have something that you're offeringto them all the time in order for them to
support you, to get that.
You you have to have that ask out thereconsistently.
And I think a lot of artists just aren't usedto that kind of that transactional approach.
But without it, nobody's gonna know that youneed it.
(31:01):
Right?
I think all of us kind of sit back and are justlike, oh, yeah.
They're doing fine.
Right?
Oh, they're doing great.
And it's like, no.
We're I could I could be starving tomorrow.
Yeah.
And I need I need this.
I've had people I've I've made this reel indifferent variations multiple times now, but it
always hits.
And it's basically like, you know, people thinkthat I'm out there playing shows and getting
(31:25):
living full time off of my music because I'mout there every night doing something.
But, like, in reality, I'm making, like, a $100a week from music, you know?
And or, like, I don't know.
It's it it varies.
It it fluctuates.
It's not always the case.
But compared to, like, what I make from mymarketing clients, it's just it's totally it
(31:47):
it's not but that's, like, what I love.
That's what I wanna show.
So I've been trying to be more intentionalabout showing, like, what I do when I'm not
making music, because there's so much that I dothat I'm when I'm not making music.
But, you know, back to your point, it's like, Ithink when artists feel uncomfortable to to ask
for what they need, it's it's very common.
(32:11):
And I think we are being pushed to think of ourcraft as more of a business in that way, you
know?
And that can be really intimidating for peoplebecause if they haven't had any experience or
exposure to entrepreneurship or people thathave built something and done it in a way with
(32:31):
integrity, then I think a lot of people getturned off and scared immediately because
they're like, I'm not a business owner.
I'm an artist.
You know?
But it's like, oh, to be an artist, you stillhave to be pretty savvy because even like
painters or sculptors, like they have to selltheir work, you know?
It's not just, it's not just the musicindustry.
(32:53):
Yeah.
And maybe fifty or even forty years ago, heck,even thirty years ago, you could do that.
You know?
You could be a Kurt Cobain and, like, no.
I'm just gonna be a songwriter and Yeah.
But you don't have that industry isn't therefor artists anymore.
Art is a commodity now.
It's been completely oversaturated.
It's been all the artists have been takenadvantage of for the last ten years especially,
(33:17):
And it it's forced us to take it upon ourselvesto change the way things are done.
You know?
We we are out here the ones who are starving.
The the Spotifys of the world and some of thesemajor labels, they're not the ones who are
struggling.
They were just throwing money away anyway.
Right?
(33:37):
Hoping for one hit.
You know?
How many bands get cut every year ortraditionally used to get cut?
Now you don't get signed unless you've goneviral and you've already gotten a huge
following.
If you get signed to a major label, there's,like, an insane stat that 80 or 90% of bands
get dropped after the first year, after theyget signed.
(33:59):
I I don't remember the number off the top of myhead, but, like, it's alarming.
You know?
And I think that is just if we could just havethis shift of, like, thinking that it's
overwhelming to recognizing how empowering itis to be fully in charge of our career and
(34:22):
destiny.
Like, of course, it might feel overwhelming.
It's a big responsibility, you know, but it'slike just what is one small thing I can do
today to move me closer to my goal?
Like, just it little steps.
Like, doesn't have to be hours of marketingevery day, you know?
(34:42):
Like, I feel like I do every day.
That's why
laughing.
You know,
but I'm doing it for other clients.
Like, even when I sit down and I'm planning myown content, I struggle.
Like, it's so much easier for me to do it forother people, you know?
But I'm working on it.
(35:04):
And it's a lot of trial and error and there'sbut there are a lot of good resources out there
to to help, you know?
I know you mentioned that you were you foundIndie Indiepreneur.
Yeah.
I actually hadn't even heard of that.
So I Really?
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
They're awesome.
And what they have is a a great course basedsystem.
(35:26):
Right?
And, you know, they call theirs the buddysystem, which is exactly what we're talking
about.
Right?
And using social media marketing to go findyour 30%.
Right?
Go find the people that like you and forgetabout the rest of them.
And they've had so many people that have usedtheir system and gone through their trainings
and are living a successful career.
(35:47):
Some of them have gone viral.
They've gone on to international tours andthings like that.
Yeah.
But a lot of people are just able we all havedifferent ideas of what success is anyway.
So just go find your success.
For me, if I can find a way that this maintainsfor the next couple of decades and I just get
to keep showing up at all the coolest placesand getting to know the coolest people in the
(36:09):
room, well, then this this has been a verysuccessful career path.
Yeah.
I think you you definitely if you can definewhat success means to you, that is huge.
Because without that, you're just gonna bechasing something that somebody else told you
is the thing to do.
You know?
So, again, it's like, it's coming back to thatwho am I?
What do I want?
(36:30):
What are my goals?
And I think it it's just so common for peopleto not think about those things because, like,
in school, we're taught, like, math instead of,like, what are, you know, what are ways that I
can plan for my future financially?
Or, like, should I have a savings account?
Or, you know, like, basics basic adulting.
(36:50):
There should be adulting one zero one.
Yeah.
I need to sign up for that one.
It should be free.
Right.
Right.
Well and I think that it's definitely thisgeneration, our generation.
You know, I'm raising my kids much differentlythan I was raised, and I think that's gonna pay
(37:14):
a lot of dividends twenty years down the road.
And I think if both of us continue to do asmuch as we can using our platforms to educate
people and to put it out there and supportother artists, then we're going to change our
worlds.
We're going to change the world that's aroundus that we see every day.
Kinda what you were talking For me, I saw Ihear LA, and granted LA is a lot bigger than
(37:37):
anybody, can ever give a credit for unless youlive there and you're aware of it.
But, you know, outwardly, we think of LosAngeles, and you're thinking the things that
you're seeing on the news.
That's kind of the first thing that come tomind.
But your life around the South Bay and in thatsmall cluster, you're like, I don't really
well, I'm not I don't see that at all.
That's not part of my world.
(37:58):
And I've I've forgotten that.
Right?
It's been a long time since I've been back inCalifornia, but I never went East Of The 405.
I was on the beach, and that was it.
And Yeah.
You know, right on Highway 1.
You know?
And I I just it it's very easy to live in asmall world even though you live in one of the
(38:21):
biggest cities in the world.
Yeah.
And I'm sure New York was the same way for youas well.
You know, New York, you just can't get awayfrom people.
Like, in the best way and sometimes the worstway, you know?
It's like but more so in the best way, I Ithink.
(38:43):
It's like, I I would walk down the street andjust, like, randomly be running into people all
the time.
And it was really easy just to, like, gosomewhere and be around people and meet new
friends or meet people.
Like, you could have you could go out everynight and just run into a whole new crowd of
people, like, suddenly they're your friends andthen you're just, like, having this whole
(39:04):
experience for, you know, eight hours goingaround.
Like, New York is just wild.
But I think what I found when I moved here is,like, it's a lot more isolating because it is
everything is spread out.
Like, most people don't take publictransportation.
We, like, just got a subway last year.
(39:27):
You know?
I mean, pretty much, like, there's been one,but they just connected it to the airport.
And what year is it?
Like, 2025.
Like, there's no other major city in the worldthat doesn't have public transportation, like,
the lack thereof, like Los Angeles.
So it's just it is very unique, you know.
(39:48):
You could drive, like, all the way down to SanDiego and except for the air force base,
there's just, like, neighborhood afterneighborhood after neighborhood.
And, you know, it's kind of Orange County too.
It's like there's little pockets and everythinghas its own little vibe in different
communities, and you spend so much time in yourcar.
(40:10):
It's like your own little bubble.
You know?
But, yeah, I I feel like a lot healthier herebecause I do feel like I have more time to
think, and I have more time in nature.
Like, I you slipped by a park in Brooklyn,McCarran Park, and that was, like, my saving
grace, honestly.
(40:31):
You know, like, my little patch of green space.
And then, yeah, I'd, like, go to the water bythe Hudson River, and that was nice and stuff.
But it's just it's totally different there.
Yeah.
I've never been to New York City.
I'm sure I will visit at some point one day
Yeah.
Probably with without my wife.
(40:52):
She has no interest in big cities and thatwhatsoever.
You know?
The culture shock is just too much.
Right?
You know, you talk about trying to find littlebits of space here and there.
We're surrounded by space.
Right?
Like, there's nothing but open space around mefor hours and hours and hours.
Yeah.
And it leaves me vice versa craving thatconnection with other people.
(41:15):
And granted the Internet is great.
I'm able to connect.
We can talk on Zoom and and have thatexperience, but nothing beats, being, in in the
space together.
Right?
And and having that community around you.
And like I said, I'm so thankful for podcastingbecause it's allowed me to just show up with a
(41:37):
microphone and to kind of be, hey.
I'm here, and and this is what I do.
And I just wanna capture you doing what it isthat you do and kinda archiving all of this at
the very least for myself to to have something,you know, on the latter years of my life to
look back and to have these memories and allthe all these people that I got to meet in my
(41:59):
life.
I have a record of this now.
And I think that's really cool, and it'ssomething that we kind of forget about as
podcasters or as artists that we live a charmedlife.
And we really do so much more than than, youknow, a a regular person who has a career that
they stick at for forty years and doing thesame thing with the same people and then having
(42:23):
little glimpses into different life, whetherthat's a vacation or things like that, we were
really in that space pretty consistently.
Right?
Even if you're only playing out once a month.
Yeah.
You know, I think that there's, like, somethingreally beautiful about that that type of
lifestyle where you do just have the same joband the same people and the same thing.
(42:45):
But it's obviously becoming more and more rare,and I think that's why it's it's really it
could it just doesn't happen as much anymore.
Right?
And I I think that the part of that is becausethere is this longing for more in life and,
like, greater meaning, and and that's maybe theconnection that you're talking about is, like,
(43:11):
we the more that we connect with people, we getto see more sides of ourselves, and we get to
experience more aspects of ourselves.
And when you're just seeing the same peopleevery single day, like, it doesn't mean that
you're missing out.
(43:32):
Like, you could totally be happy doing that,and you could have really deep, meaningful
relationships with the people in your life andexplore in that way, you know?
But I just think that it's more rare to findthat.
And yeah, I I do feel really lucky.
(43:52):
I think it's one thing that I wanna challengemyself with, you know, in the future is really,
like, deepening.
Like, when you're in a place where you aredoing the same job, same people, that kind of
lifestyle like you're talking about, I I thinkit's not a given that you have those deep
(44:13):
relationships, but it's like, in my mind, it'slike a a marriage.
Right?
Like, you you're committed to it, and so you'regoing, like, deeper with that person and with
yourself.
And, like, with every challenge that comes up,you have more to learn and discover.
And so when you're from my experience, when youare just going meeting new people all the time,
(44:40):
sometimes you can miss out on that depthbecause you're just doesn't mean you you're not
having deep conversations, but a lot of timeswhen you're just getting to know somebody, you
don't go deep right away.
Right?
So, yeah, my challenge my my goal, I guess, isto challenge myself to find that depth.
(45:01):
Whether it's in the conversations like this orjust day to day, I think that's people are
yeah.
It can be it can be scary to go there.
Right?
So
Well, Courtney, I've taken up plenty of yourtime today already.
Where can people go deeper with you and findout more about you?
(45:23):
Thank you.
I'm on Instagram mostly at Courtney McKenna,and you can listen to my podcast at
musicismymantra.com or follow my YouTube whereI have music and the podcast.
And, yeah, courtneymckenna.rocks is my website.
So if you wanna learn more about my marketingor anything like that, definitely reach out.
(45:48):
I love to help brainstorm ideas and, you know,have, yeah, have conversations with people.
So I'm around.
Well, I can honestly say that the two hoursthat I've got to spend with you have been two
of the most interesting and fun conversationsthat I've got to have this year and maybe in my
life.
(46:08):
So thank you, Courtney, for being on my show,and thanks for being part of the scene.
My pleasure.
Thanks for having me.
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