July 30, 2025 • 30 mins
What happens when the truth about a loved one’s suicide is revealed decades later? In this profoundly moving episode, Lisa opens up about her own story of “grieving in reverse” after learning that her father's death wasn’t what she had believed for 35 years.
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🧠 Episode Summary:
Lisa shares the painful and profoundly personal journey of discovering the truth about her father's death—35 years after it happened. What follows is a raw conversation about “grieving in reverse,” processing hidden trauma, and the courage to reframe our grief through radical acceptance and truth-telling.
🔍 Lessons Learned:
- The truth, even when delayed, has healing power.
- There is no expiration date on grief—or the right time to begin healing.
- Suicide is not a selfish act, but often the result of untreated mental illness.
- Rebuilding your narrative can help you honor your past and your future.
- Vulnerability fosters connection—and storytelling saves lives.
⏱️ Chapters:
00:00 – Trigger Warning & Opening 01:10 – What is “Grieving in Reverse”? 03:30 – Lisa’s Story: A Life Changed by One Conversation 07:50 – The Impact of Delayed Truth 13:00 – High Functioning Depression & Missed Signs 16:00 – Therapy, Support, and Letting Yourself Feel 19:15 – Rebuilding the Narrative After Loss 24:00 – Honoring a Loved One’s Legacy 26:05 – If I Could Talk to My Dad Now… 28:30 – Key Takeaways & Closing Thoughts 31:00 – Help Is Always Available
📚 Resources for Mental Health & Support 🔹 The Survivors Podcast Website – https://thesurvivors.net/ 🔹 The HelpHUB™ – Mental health resources, tools, and support networks – https://www.thehelphub.co/ 🔹 Schoser Talent and Wellness Solutions – Mental wellness coaching & support – https://schosersolutions.com/ 🔹 Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads – A raw, award-winning mental health podcast – https://goesoninourheads.net/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
The Survivors is brought to you by. Our friends at Schoser Talent and Wellness
Solutions. This podcast mentions suicide, mental illness,
grief and loss and may be triggering for some listeners. So
please take care of your mental well being by pausing or skipping any
sections that feel uncomfortable to you. And if you or someone you know is struggling,
please call 988 for support.
(00:24):
I'm really glad that the snort you just made
didn't get caught on audio
because people would have been very alarmed. I was alarmed.
Listen, I'm a little bit of an asshole, Okay? I get it.
Yeah. But you're my asshole. And I love you. And everyone listening loves you,
too. So we're back,
(00:47):
as we are every week, with another conversation. And I think
you all know what the conversation is about. We're talking about
suicide in some way, shape or form. And this one is.
This one could be a humdinger because this is
a very unusual
(01:07):
situation within an already nuanced subject.
You following? Yes. Okay. So we're already talking about
suicide, which is. We all know it's common,
but there's a cohort of people
in the world, there are a lot of us, I'm one of them,
who have had to do something called grieving in reverse. Have you ever heard
(01:29):
of it? Yes, I have. Well, you're just very well read. That's what
that says about you. So it's a little
snotty of you to be like, yeah, I've heard of it.
No, I'm just kidding. Wow. So grieving in
reverse is when the truth of someone's
suicide comes out after. After the fact.
(01:51):
In my case, 35 years
after the fact. And the
conversation that I'd love to have today, because I've had a lot of people
sliding into my DMs and sending me messages about
that happening to them because they've somehow heard or read that
it's happened to me. And it's not a common thing,
(02:16):
but I guess maybe it is a more common thing. And the reason for
that, big reason for that is because
suicide has been such a stigmatized thing forever. You
and I are working very hard to change that. But the truth is, it's been
a very stigmatized and taboo thing for a very long time. And so
the optics around suicide, that's the
(02:39):
thing that is the driver behind a lot of people changing the
story when someone dies that way. So
if you are listening to this podcast for the first time, or
maybe you missed some of our conversations in our first
season where G shared her story of being
an attempt survivor, I Share my story of being a multiple suicide loss
(03:01):
survivor then if you haven't heard that, I'll give you
the 2 second recap about my own story because it's relevant to this conversation.
I lost my father when I was 10 years old. The story
that I was told by my mom was that my father had died of a
heart attack. He was a very heavy smoker. Even though he was an active man,
heart disease ran in his family. There was no reason for my
(03:25):
10 year old mind to ever question that. So that is the narrative that I
lived with in my life for 35 years until I
was 45 years old and I discovered by accident
that my father had actually died by suicide. And
that's when not only I became a survivor, but I started
grieving for my father for the second time in my life
(03:48):
all over again. Like it was second one of
minute one of day one all over again.
And in my case
it wasn't an issue of optics per se.
The reason why my mother chose to change the story was not
because she was embarrassed or shameful.
(04:12):
It was because I was 10 years old, my dad was my person,
and I just was going to be
devastated for the rest of my life that he was gone. My mother didn't want
to add to that pain by telling me the truth that it was
a suicide. So she was saving me, which to her credit
she did. She saved me from a lifetime's
(04:34):
worth of a different kind of pain. So I experienced that
years later in reverse. And
have you ever had that kind of a situation happen?
I don't think, I don't think I have. So,
like, this is such an interesting like topic for me
(04:54):
because I, I can, I can understand
how painful that is
to have believed something your entire life
only to have that truth shattered in one conversation
and then having to go back and relive that pain
again, but in a different way. I,
(05:18):
it rips my heart out to think that
here was your mom, because back in the day, like
even more so back in the day than now,
suicide, that topic was highly
stigmatized. There's a lot of shame associated
with suicide and for her to want to
(05:40):
protect you for the rest of your life, but having found out like
35 years later had to have been gut wrenching.
And I can't even begin to understand
what that was like for you or for others out there that are going through
that. Well, it's. First of all, thank you for that. I appreciate
that. I can only speak, obviously from my own experience.
(06:03):
I can speak, I think pretty well, for my mom because
we have had a continued conversation. So I've
known this truth about my dad now for 11 years. So I have had a
little bit of time to process and, and to acclimate to
the fact that I'm actually a suicide loss survivor
and so has she. And so we have had this 11 year long conversation
(06:25):
which you know all about and it's just so unbelievably beautiful.
But I remember like there are defining moments, there are watershed
moments in your life. And you know, I remember where I was when,
you know, such and such a thing happened. And I. You remember the feelings and
the smells and the sounds. I remember
absolutely vividly, like it happened 20 minutes ago,
(06:47):
that conversation that changed the course of my life. And
I remember hearing my mother
validate. I asked my mother a question I never expected to ask her.
I didn't even know I was going to ask it until it was coming out
of my mouth. And I asked if my father had taken his life, which I
had never had a reason to ask, never thought to ask.
I asked, she said yes. And that changed
(07:10):
everything in that moment. And I was 45 years old when I asked her
that question, the minute it was out of my mouth and my
mother responded and said, yes, daddy did take his
life. I was a 10 year old child
sitting in my aunt Charlotte's
silver opal at the end of my street on the same day that my
(07:34):
mother told me in my aunt's car that
my dad had died. It was
the most surreal feeling I have ever experienced in my life. Because
you have this narrative. Like in my case, I had this narrative for
three and a half decades of my life. For the better part of my life,
3/4 of my life, I had this narrative and
(07:58):
I idolized my father. And then all of a
sudden, wait, my dad was the one who left. My
dad was the one who chose to go.
I mean, you talk about a mind fuck.
There is no mind fuck that I have ever experienced that is on
that level. It is, it is something
(08:21):
that is indescribable. And
it took me years to even
wrap my head around the fact that it could be true because. And you and
I have talked a million times about the types of people
who are out there who have either tried to take their life or have
successfully taken their lives. They're either the people who
(08:44):
you don't know anything is wrong, or the people who you did know
something was wrong and it still happens anyway, we didn't know anything was
wrong. So I always had this impression of my father. He was
a hero, he was my best friend, he was larger than life.
And all of a sudden now he
left. So there is just so
(09:07):
much deep and indescribable
pain that goes along with that.
And people have to understand that when all of a
sudden you find yourself in that situation, like everything is turned
inside out, upside down and is being shaken all at the
same time. And, and for me, like,
(09:30):
that had to be like the hardest moment
in your life. But I'm, I'm going to give credit back
to your mom. Such incredible strength because here she had this
little 10 year old nugget that she had to take care of and she
was making sure that you were going to be okay. And I'm sure it
was like you said, a mind fuck when you found out
(09:52):
the truth. I, and I think
that, and I could be wrong, but I think this happens a
lot more for, you know, kids,
you know, whose parents had taken their life by suicide
and now, or finding out, you know, 15, 20, 30 years
later, like how that affects them and having to go back and
(10:15):
re, grieve again, but like a different kind of
grief. And then like all the questions that you have in your mind, you
know, it, it sounds to me like your dad was had, you know,
high functioning depression. That's me all, all in one
sentence. High functioning depression and
trying to like go back and figure out like what signs did I miss?
(10:37):
Why couldn't they be open with me? Same questions you would get that you would
probably have today. You, you know, found out somebody that you loved
had taken their life, but now you're having to go back and, and
rethink about what happened 35 years ago,
what might have triggered that. And like,
I, I, I can't imagine that, that kind of pain,
(11:00):
I can't. Express that kind of pain because there aren't words that I,
you know, I use words all the time. I write that for a living. I
talk for a living. I, I can't even sit here right now and come up
with words that would do justice to how that feels. Suffice it
to say it is the deepest, darkest, hardest pain I've ever
known in my life. And then what it did for
(11:22):
me. And I don't know if anybody listening who has had a similar experience. If
you have, please reach out to us, please reach out to me. Find me on
socials. I want to have a conversation with you, G. And I want to hear
from you. And I don't know if anybody else feels this
way, but it ended up Kind of altering
everything. It almost put this filter, I want to see if
(11:44):
I can express this right. It put a filter over everything that
I had ever experienced with my father. He was a huge mountaineer.
We hiked together. That was our thing. He was a race car driver. I spent
so much time at little tracks watching my dad
race. He was the property manager for my
grandparents real estate investment properties. I would
(12:05):
go and I was like my dad's little buddy, little right hand person emptying
quarters out of the washing machines on Saturdays.
And so we were inseparable. And I
hyper analyzed every single
thing that I could remember that we had done together
and moments and conversations and experiences
(12:28):
and was like, was that real? Was that real? Was he sick then?
Did I miss something? Was I. I mean, your, your brain
is just, it's like what I would imagine
snorting a line of coke would be like. That never wears off to your
brain that you're just now, all of a sudden, you've had this infusion of,
of something that illuminates everything in your brain and makes
(12:51):
you look at it twice again and go, wait, what? And that's how
it was for me for the longest time. And it's interesting,
my husband, Dave, we talk about your wife and my husband a lot
on this podcast. Dave, first of all, he was unbelievable
with me. He. From the second I found out, he. And he was the
only person that knew besides my mother and me for three years. And he was
(13:14):
just. Talk about a rock. He was just there and I was just
gripping on for dear life. And one of the things that he
said to me that was so profound because I got stuck in this place of
like, well, everything's different now, everything's different now. And
one day he just stopped and said, you
know, I know you feel like everything's
(13:36):
changed and I totally get why, but
nothing's actually changed. He said, every memory you ever had with
dad, the times that you hiked or you were around the
track, or you were watching Star Trek together, when he got home from work,
every one of those things happened.
And that joy was real joy. And he
(13:59):
loved you. And you know that. Like, can you look me in the eye right
now and say that he didn't love you? Of course I know my father loved
me. And he reframed
everything. He, he, he saved me from a lifetime of feeling that
way with that one comment. Because he was right.
It just changed the cause of his death. It
(14:20):
didn't change the kind of husband he was. It didn't change the kind of father
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So, because like, this is a new concept to me
(15:45):
and I'm sure there's hundreds of other people out there, maybe
even thousands, that are dealing with
grieving in reverse. Like what are some things
that you've done to help you reframe it in
your head or help that grieving process?
(16:05):
I think that's a good question. No one's ever asked me that before because
I've honestly never had a conversation about grieving in reverse with anyone
until today. So this is really
cathartic for me too. What have I done? I think
I did above all, I did the thing that I
end up doing a lot, which is
(16:27):
to give myself permission to sit in it. Because
when I tell you I was in the Bermuda Triangle
of pain, just swimming in this endless black
sea of water and I just
needed to float until I found my way
to something solid. And I did that for a long, long time.
(16:51):
And I think that allowing myself
to feel things however I felt them was the
biggest favor I did for myself. Gift that
I give, gave to myself, whatever you want to call it.
I overnight changed from a kid who lost
their dad to a heart attack to a woman whose dad
(17:15):
took his own life. That is a club that no one wants to
ever be in and you don't have a choice with your membership card,
they just give it to you. And I didn't want
it. And I fought it for a
while. Like, this isn't possible. This isn't me. This isn't
What I want to attach to my grief or my father's memory.
(17:37):
And you don't have a choice, friends. It now
becomes truth. And we have
two ways we can deal with it. We either find a way
to accept it. We don't have to like it, but we have to
accept it for what it is. And
we have to somehow let it in and
(18:00):
integrate it. And I did that. And of course
I've done something very different, which is, you know, I
spend my time now I became a crisis counselor. I'm on crisis lifelines, taking calls
from people who are in that headspace who don't want to live any. That's my
way of dealing. I got involved with groups, I started
writing about it professionally. I journal about it.
(18:24):
That's what I did, I talk about it. And there are so
many different ways that people can
start that healing. But the biggest thing for me was just to
accept that I had to be wherever I was with it in that moment. And
that was okay. Okay.
And that helps. I think the other thing
(18:47):
is in your head because we all
rebuild anything that's happened in our lives. Like we have
these narratives in our head. How do you go
about rebuilding that narrative but also being
kind to yourself at the same time? Like, well, what I
used to believe in was blah, blah, blah, and now I'm learning
(19:09):
that blah, blah, blah. I'm trying to figure out how
in your own head how you rebuild that narrative.
That's a great question too. You're very spot on with the
questions today. This is very powerful for me. This is very. I feel like I'm
going to therapy right now. This is actually great. But I think
in all seriousness for me,
(19:34):
I. I had to start from a different
place. Some people may start from this place, some people may not.
I had a very different belief system
about suicide. So I came at
the whole concept of suicide and that kind of loss and grief
from a place of believing that it was a very selfish
(19:57):
act. Now again, if you don't know my
story, I have not just lost my father to suicide.
The year before my father died in 1977 when I was nine years old,
my cousin took his life. That was my first experience with
death, my first experience with suicide. Four years ago, one of my
closest childhood friends, mine and Dave's, took his own life.
(20:20):
So I am a three time survivor of this kind of loss.
But going all the way back to when I lost my cousin and
learned it was suicide and kind of learned in a very nine year old way
what suicide was, I developed A
belief system around what taking your own life meant.
In my brain, it was nothing I talked about with people, nothing anybody ever
(20:42):
fed me to believe, coached me to believe. It came out
of my own brain and heart. I believed. Well, why
didn't they just help themselves? Why didn't they just talk about it? Why didn't they.
That was really selfish, you know, that's what my nine year old brain felt.
And I lived with that very silently in my own
Heart for 35 years.
(21:06):
And then I learned my own father had taken his life. And I was like,
you gotta be kidding me. What?
And I for the very
I would say first few years there are pictures all over my house of my
dad. And I don't have very many pictures of my dad. So believe me when
I tell you the ones are. I will. I don't often show this, but I
(21:27):
will show you the only picture I have on my desk. This is the only
photograph that exists of me alone
with my father. And it is on my desk
every day. You are cutest little button there. Oh my God, what
is up with that hair? I, I don't even mom, really, what were
you thinking? Would that little hair do? If you can see I'm wearing literally like
(21:49):
I look, look like I just got off the laugh in show
Me and Goldie Hawn. So anyway, I was talking about photos and things like
that. I had them all over my house. And I always with my children, I
have two, we have two girls. And I always talked about my father like
my father was a living breathing human who was ready to walk through the door
any day. Now I all have always talked about my
(22:11):
father to my children and my friends and my family
in a very intentional way to make him a part of those
people's lives and memories. Because I always wanted my kids to feel
like my father was part of their life. Even Dave, because Dave never met my
dad. So when I found out that my
father died by suicide, I wasn't angry at my father for
(22:32):
leaving me that way. I was
furious at my father for leaving my then 40 year
old mother with a 10 year old child working part time as a secretary
at the nursing home up the street. I was bullshit
at my father for doing that to my mother and
changing the course of my mother's life and leaving her without a partner and a
(22:54):
best friend and all those things. It took me years
to find my way back to my father. And you know how I found
it? You know what the path was? It was
therapy. First of all, it was therapy
and it Was the understanding,
revelation, knowledge, epiphany, Call it what you
(23:17):
want. That suicide is not a selfish act,
that mental illness is an illness that needs to be
treated and acknowledged, and that my father had it in a time
when people didn't talk about it. There wasn't mainstream support
for it, and he couldn't bear the
pain anymore. So he made the choice to end his life was the only thing
(23:39):
that was in his control. Does that answer all your questions?
It does. I have one more
question, if you don't mind. I don't mind any questions.
How are you. How are you honoring your dad's memory now?
And how do you honor your truth?
I honor my truth doing this. I honor my truth with you
(24:02):
every single week. And I have for however many weeks that you
and I have been doing this together. Two seasons worth. I have a book
coming out. I don't talk a lot about it, but it's getting to that
point where it's sitting with my publisher right now,
and I've spent the last four months editing it with my amazing
editor. It's coming out next year. It's the story of losing my father
(24:26):
twice. I honor him through that. I
honor him by
creating the platform, the mental health platform that
I created and launched last year called the help hub. You can find it at
thehelphub. Co. It's always in the show notes. It is a
place that I created that offers
(24:48):
easy access to crisis support, hotlines,
content, tools to help anybody anywhere in any
community, whether you're in the queer community, the bipoc community,
Latinx, aapi, elderly veterans, you name.
It helps people find the help and support they need
to support their unique needs. Because I never, ever, ever want
(25:10):
someone to be in the place that my father was in and not get the
help that they need. So I honor him
like that. I honor him in. In all of those ways. I
honor him whenever I climb another mountain with Dave and the girls, I.
I honor him when
I'm there to listen and support. Listen to and support my mom
(25:33):
when she needs to talk about him. I honor him every which way I possibly
can. Okay, so I know it's
been a lot of questions this episode, but I love questions.
But I think that it's interesting for us
to talk about this. And so I have one last question and it
may or may not make you cry, and so I'm going to apologize for that
(25:55):
ahead of time. You don't have to. You never have to apologize for making me
cry. I'm a big crier. I cry Every. At everything. So if
you could talk to your dad now, what would you say? Oh, my God. Are
you kidding me with that shit right now? Oh, my
God. As I'm sitting here off camera, staring
at the photograph I just showed earlier of my father, and he's staring
(26:16):
at me with this little smirk on his face, what would I say to my
father? I had a conversation with him on Father's Day this year
talking to that picture. Oh, God. I don't even. Look,
there it goes. I don't even know if I can say this without crying. It's
not even humanly possible. No one has asked me that publicly.
And, friends, if you're hearing this, don't be sad. I'm not crying sad
(26:38):
tears. I'm crying happy tears. God.
I would just say that there has not been a
day that has gone by that I have not
loved you and thought of you and tried my very best.
Wow, this is awful. I feel like Peter Brady in the episode where his voice
changed. Oh, my God. I'm sure
(27:01):
your dad's looking down on you, like, with a little chuckle.
He's like, you're doing great. And look, I made myself cry. So, you know what?
We're okay. I know. I. Look, I would say that
I'm thriving and I'm doing
everything that I can in the ways that I know that
you would want me to, with the life that I have and with the
(27:24):
experience that I have. And I'm trying to make an impact
in all the most beautiful ways. And I will
never stop. And I love you. That is what I would say. And I know
he heard me because the clouds just moved out my window in a
funny way. So I just. I know in my heart he heard me.
And I. You know, I just. I wanted to thank you for sharing your truth
(27:46):
with us because there are so many other people out there
that are now just finding out, you
know, today that maybe their mom or dad or
an uncle or a grandparent or a child took
their life. And you.
That may have happened, like, five years ago, 10 years ago, 40 years
(28:09):
ago, and now you're having to regroup that loss.
So thank you for your openness because, you know, we're in this together
as a team, as, you know, an attempt survivor and a
loss survivor, and as a community. And as a community. And I'm so
fucking proud of you for everything that you put out into this world. So
thank you. I appreciate that more than you know. And I want to
(28:32):
leave a couple takeaways if I can, because I know we have a couple a
minute or so that I think are important for the people
who are listening to this, the people who've slid into my DMs saying, How do
I tell my child the truth? Or I just found out this
life altering truth, what do I do? Number one, there's
no expiration date on grief. There's
(28:54):
also no expiration date on the truth. Kids are
resilient. Lead with the truth. There is always an age appropriate
way to find something out. One of the weirdest comments
I can ever make that I hope people who hear me say this understand
is that one of the greatest gifts my mother ever gave me is telling me
the truth. And she did it at a time when I could
(29:15):
handle it and I knew that the world could support me.
Number two, finding out the truth later on in life, whenever
that may be, does not erase the love or invalidate any kind of
original grief that you ever may have. I've grieved twice. I own
that they were two different experiences. They both exist in
my life and in my story, and they're both valid. Number three,
(29:40):
secrecy. Keeping secrets adds layers of
trauma. And they can be healed, though, by
having conversations like this or with anyone or with a
therapist or with a friend. And you're also, number four, allowed to
regrive. You are a lot. You are encouraged, like it has to happen.
And there's always another way to reframe that loss. And
(30:03):
the last thing, number five, I guess if we're counting
speaking the truth, no matter when you do it, decades later
doesn't make a difference, is
an act of radical acceptance,
which is something I talk about with my therapist a lot. So if you're hearing
me right now and you know who you are, yes, that came from you.
(30:25):
Radical. Accept acceptance can be the greatest act of
healing that we can find. Thank
you so much for being so vulnerable today. And
you know, like Lisa said, if, if you have any questions
slide into our DMs, we're more than happy to, to answer
any questions. And even if you don't have a question and you just have something
(30:48):
you want to share, we want to hear that, too.
For sure. All right, boo. So I'll see you next week. Do
you love me as much as I love you? Maybe a little bit more. You
know what? I'm smaller. I have a lot more love to give. Okay, I like
that. I'll take that. I'll see you next week. All right, girl. Bye. Bye.
Thanks for joining us on the Survivors. Remember, no matter how tough things
(31:11):
feel, you are enough and the world needs you just the way you are.
You're not alone in this journey. There's a community here and every step forward
counts. We're so grateful you took the time to listen, and we hope you'll
take one day at a time. Just know there's always more light ahead.
Thanks for being here. Friends, Just remember, help is out there
in so many different places. So if you or someone you know. Is struggling,
(31:35):
please call 988 and a trained crisis counselor like me will be
there to help. You can also find an inclusive and. Comprehensive directory of
mental health research resources. Tools and content at thehelphub.
Co. Just remember that help is always. Just a call or
a click away. We'll catch you next week. In the meantime, keep
surviving.
The Survivors is brought to you by. Our friends at Schoser Talent and Wellness
Solutions. This podcast mentions suicide, mental illness,
grief and loss and may be triggering for some listeners. So
please take care of your mental well being by pausing or skipping any
sections that feel uncomfortable to you. And if you or someone you know is struggling,
please call 988 for support.
(00:24):
I'm really glad that the snort you just made
didn't get caught on audio
because people would have been very alarmed. I was alarmed.
Listen, I'm a little bit of an asshole, Okay? I get it.
Yeah. But you're my asshole. And I love you. And everyone listening loves you,
too. So we're back,
(00:47):
as we are every week, with another conversation. And I think
you all know what the conversation is about. We're talking about
suicide in some way, shape or form. And this one is.
This one could be a humdinger because this is
a very unusual
(01:07):
situation within an already nuanced subject.
You following? Yes. Okay. So we're already talking about
suicide, which is. We all know it's common,
but there's a cohort of people
in the world, there are a lot of us, I'm one of them,
who have had to do something called grieving in reverse. Have you ever heard
(01:29):
of it? Yes, I have. Well, you're just very well read. That's what
that says about you. So it's a little
snotty of you to be like, yeah, I've heard of it.
No, I'm just kidding. Wow. So grieving in
reverse is when the truth of someone's
suicide comes out after. After the fact.
(01:51):
In my case, 35 years
after the fact. And the
conversation that I'd love to have today, because I've had a lot of people
sliding into my DMs and sending me messages about
that happening to them because they've somehow heard or read that
it's happened to me. And it's not a common thing,
(02:16):
but I guess maybe it is a more common thing. And the reason for
that, big reason for that is because
suicide has been such a stigmatized thing forever. You
and I are working very hard to change that. But the truth is, it's been
a very stigmatized and taboo thing for a very long time. And so
the optics around suicide, that's the
(02:39):
thing that is the driver behind a lot of people changing the
story when someone dies that way. So
if you are listening to this podcast for the first time, or
maybe you missed some of our conversations in our first
season where G shared her story of being
an attempt survivor, I Share my story of being a multiple suicide loss
(03:01):
survivor then if you haven't heard that, I'll give you
the 2 second recap about my own story because it's relevant to this conversation.
I lost my father when I was 10 years old. The story
that I was told by my mom was that my father had died of a
heart attack. He was a very heavy smoker. Even though he was an active man,
heart disease ran in his family. There was no reason for my
(03:25):
10 year old mind to ever question that. So that is the narrative that I
lived with in my life for 35 years until I
was 45 years old and I discovered by accident
that my father had actually died by suicide. And
that's when not only I became a survivor, but I started
grieving for my father for the second time in my life
(03:48):
all over again. Like it was second one of
minute one of day one all over again.
And in my case
it wasn't an issue of optics per se.
The reason why my mother chose to change the story was not
because she was embarrassed or shameful.
(04:12):
It was because I was 10 years old, my dad was my person,
and I just was going to be
devastated for the rest of my life that he was gone. My mother didn't want
to add to that pain by telling me the truth that it was
a suicide. So she was saving me, which to her credit
she did. She saved me from a lifetime's
(04:34):
worth of a different kind of pain. So I experienced that
years later in reverse. And
have you ever had that kind of a situation happen?
I don't think, I don't think I have. So,
like, this is such an interesting like topic for me
(04:54):
because I, I can, I can understand
how painful that is
to have believed something your entire life
only to have that truth shattered in one conversation
and then having to go back and relive that pain
again, but in a different way. I,
(05:18):
it rips my heart out to think that
here was your mom, because back in the day, like
even more so back in the day than now,
suicide, that topic was highly
stigmatized. There's a lot of shame associated
with suicide and for her to want to
(05:40):
protect you for the rest of your life, but having found out like
35 years later had to have been gut wrenching.
And I can't even begin to understand
what that was like for you or for others out there that are going through
that. Well, it's. First of all, thank you for that. I appreciate
that. I can only speak, obviously from my own experience.
(06:03):
I can speak, I think pretty well, for my mom because
we have had a continued conversation. So I've
known this truth about my dad now for 11 years. So I have had a
little bit of time to process and, and to acclimate to
the fact that I'm actually a suicide loss survivor
and so has she. And so we have had this 11 year long conversation
(06:25):
which you know all about and it's just so unbelievably beautiful.
But I remember like there are defining moments, there are watershed
moments in your life. And you know, I remember where I was when,
you know, such and such a thing happened. And I. You remember the feelings and
the smells and the sounds. I remember
absolutely vividly, like it happened 20 minutes ago,
(06:47):
that conversation that changed the course of my life. And
I remember hearing my mother
validate. I asked my mother a question I never expected to ask her.
I didn't even know I was going to ask it until it was coming out
of my mouth. And I asked if my father had taken his life, which I
had never had a reason to ask, never thought to ask.
I asked, she said yes. And that changed
(07:10):
everything in that moment. And I was 45 years old when I asked her
that question, the minute it was out of my mouth and my
mother responded and said, yes, daddy did take his
life. I was a 10 year old child
sitting in my aunt Charlotte's
silver opal at the end of my street on the same day that my
(07:34):
mother told me in my aunt's car that
my dad had died. It was
the most surreal feeling I have ever experienced in my life. Because
you have this narrative. Like in my case, I had this narrative for
three and a half decades of my life. For the better part of my life,
3/4 of my life, I had this narrative and
(07:58):
I idolized my father. And then all of a
sudden, wait, my dad was the one who left. My
dad was the one who chose to go.
I mean, you talk about a mind fuck.
There is no mind fuck that I have ever experienced that is on
that level. It is, it is something
(08:21):
that is indescribable. And
it took me years to even
wrap my head around the fact that it could be true because. And you and
I have talked a million times about the types of people
who are out there who have either tried to take their life or have
successfully taken their lives. They're either the people who
(08:44):
you don't know anything is wrong, or the people who you did know
something was wrong and it still happens anyway, we didn't know anything was
wrong. So I always had this impression of my father. He was
a hero, he was my best friend, he was larger than life.
And all of a sudden now he
left. So there is just so
(09:07):
much deep and indescribable
pain that goes along with that.
And people have to understand that when all of a
sudden you find yourself in that situation, like everything is turned
inside out, upside down and is being shaken all at the
same time. And, and for me, like,
(09:30):
that had to be like the hardest moment
in your life. But I'm, I'm going to give credit back
to your mom. Such incredible strength because here she had this
little 10 year old nugget that she had to take care of and she
was making sure that you were going to be okay. And I'm sure it
was like you said, a mind fuck when you found out
(09:52):
the truth. I, and I think
that, and I could be wrong, but I think this happens a
lot more for, you know, kids,
you know, whose parents had taken their life by suicide
and now, or finding out, you know, 15, 20, 30 years
later, like how that affects them and having to go back and
(10:15):
re, grieve again, but like a different kind of
grief. And then like all the questions that you have in your mind, you
know, it, it sounds to me like your dad was had, you know,
high functioning depression. That's me all, all in one
sentence. High functioning depression and
trying to like go back and figure out like what signs did I miss?
(10:37):
Why couldn't they be open with me? Same questions you would get that you would
probably have today. You, you know, found out somebody that you loved
had taken their life, but now you're having to go back and, and
rethink about what happened 35 years ago,
what might have triggered that. And like,
I, I, I can't imagine that, that kind of pain,
(11:00):
I can't. Express that kind of pain because there aren't words that I,
you know, I use words all the time. I write that for a living. I
talk for a living. I, I can't even sit here right now and come up
with words that would do justice to how that feels. Suffice it
to say it is the deepest, darkest, hardest pain I've ever
known in my life. And then what it did for
(11:22):
me. And I don't know if anybody listening who has had a similar experience. If
you have, please reach out to us, please reach out to me. Find me on
socials. I want to have a conversation with you, G. And I want to hear
from you. And I don't know if anybody else feels this
way, but it ended up Kind of altering
everything. It almost put this filter, I want to see if
(11:44):
I can express this right. It put a filter over everything that
I had ever experienced with my father. He was a huge mountaineer.
We hiked together. That was our thing. He was a race car driver. I spent
so much time at little tracks watching my dad
race. He was the property manager for my
grandparents real estate investment properties. I would
(12:05):
go and I was like my dad's little buddy, little right hand person emptying
quarters out of the washing machines on Saturdays.
And so we were inseparable. And I
hyper analyzed every single
thing that I could remember that we had done together
and moments and conversations and experiences
(12:28):
and was like, was that real? Was that real? Was he sick then?
Did I miss something? Was I. I mean, your, your brain
is just, it's like what I would imagine
snorting a line of coke would be like. That never wears off to your
brain that you're just now, all of a sudden, you've had this infusion of,
of something that illuminates everything in your brain and makes
(12:51):
you look at it twice again and go, wait, what? And that's how
it was for me for the longest time. And it's interesting,
my husband, Dave, we talk about your wife and my husband a lot
on this podcast. Dave, first of all, he was unbelievable
with me. He. From the second I found out, he. And he was the
only person that knew besides my mother and me for three years. And he was
(13:14):
just. Talk about a rock. He was just there and I was just
gripping on for dear life. And one of the things that he
said to me that was so profound because I got stuck in this place of
like, well, everything's different now, everything's different now. And
one day he just stopped and said, you
know, I know you feel like everything's
(13:36):
changed and I totally get why, but
nothing's actually changed. He said, every memory you ever had with
dad, the times that you hiked or you were around the
track, or you were watching Star Trek together, when he got home from work,
every one of those things happened.
And that joy was real joy. And he
(13:59):
loved you. And you know that. Like, can you look me in the eye right
now and say that he didn't love you? Of course I know my father loved
me. And he reframed
everything. He, he, he saved me from a lifetime of feeling that
way with that one comment. Because he was right.
It just changed the cause of his death. It
(14:20):
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So, because like, this is a new concept to me
(15:45):
and I'm sure there's hundreds of other people out there, maybe
even thousands, that are dealing with
grieving in reverse. Like what are some things
that you've done to help you reframe it in
your head or help that grieving process?
(16:05):
I think that's a good question. No one's ever asked me that before because
I've honestly never had a conversation about grieving in reverse with anyone
until today. So this is really
cathartic for me too. What have I done? I think
I did above all, I did the thing that I
end up doing a lot, which is
(16:27):
to give myself permission to sit in it. Because
when I tell you I was in the Bermuda Triangle
of pain, just swimming in this endless black
sea of water and I just
needed to float until I found my way
to something solid. And I did that for a long, long time.
(16:51):
And I think that allowing myself
to feel things however I felt them was the
biggest favor I did for myself. Gift that
I give, gave to myself, whatever you want to call it.
I overnight changed from a kid who lost
their dad to a heart attack to a woman whose dad
(17:15):
took his own life. That is a club that no one wants to
ever be in and you don't have a choice with your membership card,
they just give it to you. And I didn't want
it. And I fought it for a
while. Like, this isn't possible. This isn't me. This isn't
What I want to attach to my grief or my father's memory.
(17:37):
And you don't have a choice, friends. It now
becomes truth. And we have
two ways we can deal with it. We either find a way
to accept it. We don't have to like it, but we have to
accept it for what it is. And
we have to somehow let it in and
(18:00):
integrate it. And I did that. And of course
I've done something very different, which is, you know, I
spend my time now I became a crisis counselor. I'm on crisis lifelines, taking calls
from people who are in that headspace who don't want to live any. That's my
way of dealing. I got involved with groups, I started
writing about it professionally. I journal about it.
(18:24):
That's what I did, I talk about it. And there are so
many different ways that people can
start that healing. But the biggest thing for me was just to
accept that I had to be wherever I was with it in that moment. And
that was okay. Okay.
And that helps. I think the other thing
(18:47):
is in your head because we all
rebuild anything that's happened in our lives. Like we have
these narratives in our head. How do you go
about rebuilding that narrative but also being
kind to yourself at the same time? Like, well, what I
used to believe in was blah, blah, blah, and now I'm learning
(19:09):
that blah, blah, blah. I'm trying to figure out how
in your own head how you rebuild that narrative.
That's a great question too. You're very spot on with the
questions today. This is very powerful for me. This is very. I feel like I'm
going to therapy right now. This is actually great. But I think
in all seriousness for me,
(19:34):
I. I had to start from a different
place. Some people may start from this place, some people may not.
I had a very different belief system
about suicide. So I came at
the whole concept of suicide and that kind of loss and grief
from a place of believing that it was a very selfish
(19:57):
act. Now again, if you don't know my
story, I have not just lost my father to suicide.
The year before my father died in 1977 when I was nine years old,
my cousin took his life. That was my first experience with
death, my first experience with suicide. Four years ago, one of my
closest childhood friends, mine and Dave's, took his own life.
(20:20):
So I am a three time survivor of this kind of loss.
But going all the way back to when I lost my cousin and
learned it was suicide and kind of learned in a very nine year old way
what suicide was, I developed A
belief system around what taking your own life meant.
In my brain, it was nothing I talked about with people, nothing anybody ever
(20:42):
fed me to believe, coached me to believe. It came out
of my own brain and heart. I believed. Well, why
didn't they just help themselves? Why didn't they just talk about it? Why didn't they.
That was really selfish, you know, that's what my nine year old brain felt.
And I lived with that very silently in my own
Heart for 35 years.
(21:06):
And then I learned my own father had taken his life. And I was like,
you gotta be kidding me. What?
And I for the very
I would say first few years there are pictures all over my house of my
dad. And I don't have very many pictures of my dad. So believe me when
I tell you the ones are. I will. I don't often show this, but I
(21:27):
will show you the only picture I have on my desk. This is the only
photograph that exists of me alone
with my father. And it is on my desk
every day. You are cutest little button there. Oh my God, what
is up with that hair? I, I don't even mom, really, what were
you thinking? Would that little hair do? If you can see I'm wearing literally like
(21:49):
I look, look like I just got off the laugh in show
Me and Goldie Hawn. So anyway, I was talking about photos and things like
that. I had them all over my house. And I always with my children, I
have two, we have two girls. And I always talked about my father like
my father was a living breathing human who was ready to walk through the door
any day. Now I all have always talked about my
(22:11):
father to my children and my friends and my family
in a very intentional way to make him a part of those
people's lives and memories. Because I always wanted my kids to feel
like my father was part of their life. Even Dave, because Dave never met my
dad. So when I found out that my
father died by suicide, I wasn't angry at my father for
(22:32):
leaving me that way. I was
furious at my father for leaving my then 40 year
old mother with a 10 year old child working part time as a secretary
at the nursing home up the street. I was bullshit
at my father for doing that to my mother and
changing the course of my mother's life and leaving her without a partner and a
(22:54):
best friend and all those things. It took me years
to find my way back to my father. And you know how I found
it? You know what the path was? It was
therapy. First of all, it was therapy
and it Was the understanding,
revelation, knowledge, epiphany, Call it what you
(23:17):
want. That suicide is not a selfish act,
that mental illness is an illness that needs to be
treated and acknowledged, and that my father had it in a time
when people didn't talk about it. There wasn't mainstream support
for it, and he couldn't bear the
pain anymore. So he made the choice to end his life was the only thing
(23:39):
that was in his control. Does that answer all your questions?
It does. I have one more
question, if you don't mind. I don't mind any questions.
How are you. How are you honoring your dad's memory now?
And how do you honor your truth?
I honor my truth doing this. I honor my truth with you
(24:02):
every single week. And I have for however many weeks that you
and I have been doing this together. Two seasons worth. I have a book
coming out. I don't talk a lot about it, but it's getting to that
point where it's sitting with my publisher right now,
and I've spent the last four months editing it with my amazing
editor. It's coming out next year. It's the story of losing my father
(24:26):
twice. I honor him through that. I
honor him by
creating the platform, the mental health platform that
I created and launched last year called the help hub. You can find it at
thehelphub. Co. It's always in the show notes. It is a
place that I created that offers
(24:48):
easy access to crisis support, hotlines,
content, tools to help anybody anywhere in any
community, whether you're in the queer community, the bipoc community,
Latinx, aapi, elderly veterans, you name.
It helps people find the help and support they need
to support their unique needs. Because I never, ever, ever want
(25:10):
someone to be in the place that my father was in and not get the
help that they need. So I honor him
like that. I honor him in. In all of those ways. I
honor him whenever I climb another mountain with Dave and the girls, I.
I honor him when
I'm there to listen and support. Listen to and support my mom
(25:33):
when she needs to talk about him. I honor him every which way I possibly
can. Okay, so I know it's
been a lot of questions this episode, but I love questions.
But I think that it's interesting for us
to talk about this. And so I have one last question and it
may or may not make you cry, and so I'm going to apologize for that
(25:55):
ahead of time. You don't have to. You never have to apologize for making me
cry. I'm a big crier. I cry Every. At everything. So if
you could talk to your dad now, what would you say? Oh, my God. Are
you kidding me with that shit right now? Oh, my
God. As I'm sitting here off camera, staring
at the photograph I just showed earlier of my father, and he's staring
(26:16):
at me with this little smirk on his face, what would I say to my
father? I had a conversation with him on Father's Day this year
talking to that picture. Oh, God. I don't even. Look,
there it goes. I don't even know if I can say this without crying. It's
not even humanly possible. No one has asked me that publicly.
And, friends, if you're hearing this, don't be sad. I'm not crying sad
(26:38):
tears. I'm crying happy tears. God.
I would just say that there has not been a
day that has gone by that I have not
loved you and thought of you and tried my very best.
Wow, this is awful. I feel like Peter Brady in the episode where his voice
changed. Oh, my God. I'm sure
(27:01):
your dad's looking down on you, like, with a little chuckle.
He's like, you're doing great. And look, I made myself cry. So, you know what?
We're okay. I know. I. Look, I would say that
I'm thriving and I'm doing
everything that I can in the ways that I know that
you would want me to, with the life that I have and with the
(27:24):
experience that I have. And I'm trying to make an impact
in all the most beautiful ways. And I will
never stop. And I love you. That is what I would say. And I know
he heard me because the clouds just moved out my window in a
funny way. So I just. I know in my heart he heard me.
And I. You know, I just. I wanted to thank you for sharing your truth
(27:46):
with us because there are so many other people out there
that are now just finding out, you
know, today that maybe their mom or dad or
an uncle or a grandparent or a child took
their life. And you.
That may have happened, like, five years ago, 10 years ago, 40 years
(28:09):
ago, and now you're having to regroup that loss.
So thank you for your openness because, you know, we're in this together
as a team, as, you know, an attempt survivor and a
loss survivor, and as a community. And as a community. And I'm so
fucking proud of you for everything that you put out into this world. So
thank you. I appreciate that more than you know. And I want to
(28:32):
leave a couple takeaways if I can, because I know we have a couple a
minute or so that I think are important for the people
who are listening to this, the people who've slid into my DMs saying, How do
I tell my child the truth? Or I just found out this
life altering truth, what do I do? Number one, there's
no expiration date on grief. There's
(28:54):
also no expiration date on the truth. Kids are
resilient. Lead with the truth. There is always an age appropriate
way to find something out. One of the weirdest comments
I can ever make that I hope people who hear me say this understand
is that one of the greatest gifts my mother ever gave me is telling me
the truth. And she did it at a time when I could
(29:15):
handle it and I knew that the world could support me.
Number two, finding out the truth later on in life, whenever
that may be, does not erase the love or invalidate any kind of
original grief that you ever may have. I've grieved twice. I own
that they were two different experiences. They both exist in
my life and in my story, and they're both valid. Number three,
(29:40):
secrecy. Keeping secrets adds layers of
trauma. And they can be healed, though, by
having conversations like this or with anyone or with a
therapist or with a friend. And you're also, number four, allowed to
regrive. You are a lot. You are encouraged, like it has to happen.
And there's always another way to reframe that loss. And
(30:03):
the last thing, number five, I guess if we're counting
speaking the truth, no matter when you do it, decades later
doesn't make a difference, is
an act of radical acceptance,
which is something I talk about with my therapist a lot. So if you're hearing
me right now and you know who you are, yes, that came from you.
(30:25):
Radical. Accept acceptance can be the greatest act of
healing that we can find. Thank
you so much for being so vulnerable today. And
you know, like Lisa said, if, if you have any questions
slide into our DMs, we're more than happy to, to answer
any questions. And even if you don't have a question and you just have something
(30:48):
you want to share, we want to hear that, too.
For sure. All right, boo. So I'll see you next week. Do
you love me as much as I love you? Maybe a little bit more. You
know what? I'm smaller. I have a lot more love to give. Okay, I like
that. I'll take that. I'll see you next week. All right, girl. Bye. Bye.
Thanks for joining us on the Survivors. Remember, no matter how tough things
(31:11):
feel, you are enough and the world needs you just the way you are.
You're not alone in this journey. There's a community here and every step forward
counts. We're so grateful you took the time to listen, and we hope you'll
take one day at a time. Just know there's always more light ahead.
Thanks for being here. Friends, Just remember, help is out there
in so many different places. So if you or someone you know. Is struggling,
(31:35):
please call 988 and a trained crisis counselor like me will be
there to help. You can also find an inclusive and. Comprehensive directory of
mental health research resources. Tools and content at thehelphub.
Co. Just remember that help is always. Just a call or
a click away. We'll catch you next week. In the meantime, keep
surviving.
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