May 15, 2025 • 42 mins
In this heartfelt and deeply insightful episode of The Wealth Effect, Dr. Kimberly Harms joins us to share her powerful life journey from a career in dentistry to navigating profound personal loss. A former commissioned officer in the United States Public Health Service and a successful dental practice owner, Dr. Kim opens up about financial experiences. This conversation goes far beyond money.
Dr. Kim vulnerably shares her experience of becoming a widow, the devastating loss of her son to suicide, and her path through grief, depression, and healing. She offers practical and emotional wisdom on estate planning, end-of-life care, and the importance of open communication with family to avoid conflict and preserve legacy. We discuss why planning for death is not about fear, it's about living with purpose and peace.
This episode is a moving guide on how to prepare practically for life’s most difficult moments.
🔗 Resources Mentioned
- Dr. Kimberly Harms' website: DrKimberlyHarms.com
- Rethinking Death: https://rethinkingdeath.life/
- Upcoming book: Rethinking Death.Life
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to The
(00:00):
Wealth Effect.
Today we have
Dr. Kimberly with us.
She has an impressive
amount of accomplishments.
She has served as commissioned officer in
the United States Public Health Service,
a dental school professor, a clinical
dentist with her late husband Jim in
Farmington, Minnesota, a school board
chair, president of an international
(00:23):
women's organization, vice chair of the
Union Gospel Mission Board, the first
woman president in Minnesota's Dental
Association and a national spokesperson
for the American
Dental Association.
Then she became a grief counselor,
a civil meditator, a death doula,
(00:45):
a life coach, an award-winning
best-selling author, and an international
speaker on the topics of grief,
conflict, and legacy planning.
Wow, that is
very impressive.
Thank you for
being on the show.
Thank you.
I'm old.
When you have a lot of time,
you can do a lot of things.
I guess we could start
at the beginning.
(01:06):
Where did you grow up, and was
it a small town, or how was it?
Actually,
I grew up.
My father was in the Navy, so
I went all around the country.
I was born in California,
went to Florida.
You know, we
were all over.
But I grew up mainly, he was stationed
at the Pentagon, so most of my life from
first grade onward was
in Maryland, in the D.C.
suburbs.
(01:26):
Wow, that's
very different.
I did not
expect that.
Never really heard anyone
growing up around those areas.
Do you think that influenced, like,
your dreams of what you wanted to become
if you wanted to join Navy
or go a different route?
Well, I did end up being a member of the
public health service, but what influenced
me most was my first
(01:47):
week at school.
I was just 17, and I was at the University
of Maryland, and there was this really
cute guy named Jim Harms, and
he wanted to be a dentist.
And so I thought,
this was the 70s.
Forgive me.
Don't do this,
anyone now.
This is very
old thinking.
But I thought, you know, if I became
a dentist, he would marry me, maybe.
And so I did.
And he did,
and he did.
(02:08):
And so it all
worked out.
My plan
worked great.
And I ended up
loving dentistry.
There were very few
women in those days.
But it's about half the
graduating class now is women.
So it was, although it was unusual
then, it certainly isn't anymore.
How was it financing or going
to college at those times?
Did you have to pay at pocket, or
(02:28):
was it more affordable back then?
Yeah.
You know, it was
much more affordable.
I worked three jobs, and I paid for
all my education, my living expenses,
everything out of
those three jobs.
So I was lucky because
I was in Washington.
I got a junior fellowship with the
Department of Agriculture, which paid
$4.50 an hour.
(02:49):
And then I worked at
McDonald's, which was $1.50.
And then I had another job as an
accountant, which, and I'm not a really
good accountant, but it was a small
construction firm, had me come in and do
some bookkeeping.
And then I worked in
the Evolution Lab.
Actually, I had
four jobs, I guess.
I worked at the Evolution Lab
at the University of Maryland.
So I just worked a lot
and paid for my education.
(03:09):
But the wonderful thing back then is,
like, I was probably working maybe 40
hours a week and going
to school about the same.
I was working very hard, but I was able to
pay my tuition because it was less then.
You know, tuition has skyrocketed, so
it makes it much more difficult now.
But I didn't actually, I didn't even
go into debt, and I got no loans,
(03:30):
or my parents wouldn't fill out any forms,
so I didn't get any
loans or any other help.
But I was able to do it by working,
which I don't think is really possible
anymore because the costs
have gone up so much.
Yeah, it's very difficult without
scholarships or external help.
How did you manage
your stress?
Because
that's a lot.
I didn't have, like, a traditional job
(03:51):
in college just because I had enough
scholarships, and I just needed
to maintain a really high GPA.
Well, it was what I had to do, and
I think that when you're faced with
the situation, and I wanted to go to
college, that if I wanted to go to
college, I had to make my way through
and work my way through, and I think that
really helped it.
But, yeah, I did not have really much free
(04:13):
time, and I think that's
how I started dating my
husband, Jim.
He was also working his way through
college, and so our dates were usually at
the library.
So I think we just combined some things
because we were both very busy and we're
both working
really hard.
And how was it transitioning from
college to practicing dentists?
(04:39):
Well, when I got to dental school,
I have to say, I got a public health
service scholarship, and that was
wonderful because that took care of the
transition because when I got out of
dental school, my husband also had a
public health
scholarship.
When we got out of dental school, we
were sent to a location in Illinois,
an underserved
area.
It's called the National Health Service
(04:59):
Corps, which is part of the Coast Guard.
And so we were
sent there.
We did a little externship at the
Coast Guard base in California.
So we were kind of given, you know, we
were given our instructions right after
dental school, practice for three years,
worked off our obligation, and then we
went on to buy our own
practice a few years later.
(05:21):
Wow, that's pretty
interesting.
How did you go about
opening your own practice?
Did you feel overwhelmed because you
didn't, like, particularly study business?
That's true.
We had... we purchased an existing
practice, and we... and the dentist that
was working there stayed for about three
(05:42):
months, kind of, with the transition,
and we just
took over.
And that's a very typical... in fact,
my daughter is a dental attorney.
That's what she helps people do, is
to transition from
being an associate or...
Usually, most people don't come right
out of dental school and buy a practice
because they need to have a little work
experience under their belt, typically,
(06:02):
to get a loan.
But, you know, they work as an associate
with someone, and then they go on and buy
the practice.
Either the one that they're in,
or perhaps a different practice.
But that's... that's kind of the
way things... things are going.
And then how... did you feel, like,
having a higher income from being a
dentist, did you
feel more free?
(06:23):
As, you know, money does buy some
luxuries, being able to travel,
being able to do a lot more things,
especially coming from your background
with having
so many jobs.
Well, my husband
was a farmer.
He grew up
on a farm.
And what we did is, we put the money in
the barn, is that what he liked to say?
And we put our money, we
invested back into the practice.
(06:44):
We bought a
beautiful building.
We actually managed to have a
very large practice, eventually.
And we did... we
were in a small town.
And that was...
that was wonderful.
It was a great place
to raise our kids.
It was a small
town in Minnesota.
So we didn't feel
quite the pressure.
Growing up on the East Coast, I felt
a little more pressure to make money.
Growing up in the Midwest, we
(07:04):
didn't feel quite as much pressure.
And so, therefore, I was able to
participate on the school board and as,
you know, in organized dentistry as
president of the Dental Association.
So I was able to do
more of those things.
We had a really
good lifestyle.
I don't think... we didn't
feel like we were super rich.
And we invested a lot in
our children's education.
(07:25):
We paid for their
college tuition.
And then when they went on to law
school, we said we'd pay their tuition,
but they could live at home if they wanted
because they went to local law schools in
Minneapolis.
But they chose not to, and
they went into student debt.
So they could really talk to you a little
bit about maybe they would have changed
that decision if they
had thought about it.
They would have probably stayed at
(07:46):
home and not had the student debt.
But, you know, you make decisions when
you're 21 and 22 that can affect the rest
of your life.
Yeah.
How did you go about managing,
like, planning out all this?
Did you figure it out on your own, or
did you go seek out help in any way?
(08:07):
We knew how hard
it was to make it.
And so we were
fairly frugal.
We took vacations.
We felt that travel was a really
important thing for our family.
We kind of focused on
experiences with the family.
We had a very nice home, but
it wasn't really extravagant.
It was a very nice
one in our community.
And I think that the motto that we really
(08:30):
lived by was we lived below our means.
And we did invest
in retirement.
And that was a really smart move because
when I was 54, I developed nerve damage in
my drilling
fingers.
And, you know, there
went my career.
I was working full-time one day,
and then I was done the next.
(08:51):
And that was a shock because we
were planning on using those years,
you know, 50 to 60 to really
save up for our retirement plan.
But because we had planned early, lived
low, you know, lower
than we needed to.
We really weren't living low, but we were
living lower than we could have lived.
I was able to retire at 54, and then
(09:12):
that's when I started working with the
grief counseling and civil mediation and
those things, which I just love to do.
And so I had to reconstruct myself,
as we do, quite frequently in life.
And then when I lost my husband and became
a widow, then you have to reconstruct
yourself again.
So probably the best advice I can give on
just living a life when it comes to money
(09:35):
is to live below your means
for as long as you can.
But take
some trips.
Remember that your legacy is being built
every day with the people that you're
around, with
the children.
children, do some fun things with the
kids, spend money on that,
spend money on education
for the kids.
Because one of the wonderful things I
found out is that both of my kids are
(09:55):
attorneys, are
both successful.
I don't need to
help them anymore.
And in fact, they said, Mom,
don't save your money up for us.
We're fine.
You can use it to
fund your retirement.
Don't save
it up for us.
And that gave me the freedom, really,
to do the things I'm doing now.
Because I
love writing.
I love...
I talk about grief and
conflict and things like that.
(10:15):
And I just have a great time speaking and
writing books and kind of being with my
grandchildren.
I have a place here
in Kansas City.
And then I also have a place in
Minneapolis because I have three
grandchildren here and
three grandchildren there.
And I have not forgotten
my most important job.
And that is to be a good granny to
those little grandchildren of mine.
And so I want to be part of
(10:36):
both sets of grandchildren.
I want to be part of their
lives on a day-to-day basis.
And that's where
you get your...
You know, I really
think emotional wealth.
That's where
you are...
I feel very
emotionally wealthy.
And I have these wonderful grandchildren
that I'm trying to teach them how to
become resilient and
how to get through life.
Because one generation, we
pass that on to the next.
(10:57):
Life's not easy.
It's kind of hard.
So you got to teach
some of these lessons.
Yeah, especially nowadays where things are
coming up at earlier and earlier stages,
especially
with media.
Things like wars are becoming
more known to younger children.
And it becomes a point of like, do
you talk to them about like death in
(11:18):
that sense?
Because they're going to come across it,
whether it is in their personal life or
the media and the
outside world.
How would you
go about that?
Like talking to someone that's younger,
let's say like under 15, talking about
like death or
their aging parent?
Because I
know for...
Even for me, I find talking about death,
about a family member, very uncomfortable
(11:41):
and hard to even bring up
because my mom is like 53.
And she's, I would say on the younger
side, but I know it will come one day.
Well, I'm 68, so I'm a little
older than your mother.
And what is so critically important,
it's so critically important to build
(12:03):
resilience.
And when I lost my husband five years ago,
my grandchildren were very close to him.
Fortunately, he was able to meet all
of them and they all remember him.
And I keep his
memory alive.
But through pictures, I take lots of
pictures and, you know, we take trips and
we talk about
them quite a bit.
But when he died, I saw the
effect it had on my children.
It was really hard.
(12:24):
They were just
devastated.
It took them a long
time to recover.
And my legacy to them is that even though
I know they love me and hopefully they'll
love me a lot, you know, but I want them
to realize that the best thing they can do
for me is to flourish
and to thrive.
And I know there'll be some grief over
losing me, but I want them to remember the
(12:46):
things that I
taught them.
And I work really hard to teach them
how to love people, how to be kind,
how to be, have some
resilience in their lives.
So I try to really
focus on that now.
And I do talk to them
about when I die.
I'll say, you
know what?
At some point, Nana, you
know, Nana's going to die.
I'm going to die.
And, and, you know, you need to go
on and you need to have a great life.
And I want to see you
(13:07):
have a great life.
And I know it works because just a few
months ago, my little eight-year-old
granddaughter, Heidi, looked up at me from
the dinner table and she was really kind
of, you know, a little nervous
about asking this question.
She said, Nana.
And I said,
yeah, Heidi.
She goes, well, if what happened to
Pop-Pop happens to you, and I said,
(13:27):
you mean if I
were to die?
And she said, yeah,
Nana, if you were to die.
And I said, go ahead, Heidi, if I were
to die, what question do you have?
She said, well, if you were to die,
we still go on the Disney cruise.
I said, yes, yes, you can
go on the Disney cruise.
And by the way,
that's a great idea.
So what I, what I'm doing now is I'm
(13:49):
putting money aside from my will,
in my will to cover a trip for my family,
for my whole family going on a trip to
remember me and to be happy, to
remember that I want them to be joyful.
I want them to
have a good life.
My, you know, my time on earth would be
done at that point, but I want them to
have a good life and
flourish and go forward.
And that's one of the best legacies
(14:10):
we can give to our families.
And you mentioned not wanting to talk to
your family about what
happens when they die.
And that, that, that can be a problem
because what happens in our country,
in the United States, it's 75% of families
go through conflict surrounding the death
of a loved one.
And that's not a good time to be in
conflict because you're, you're overcome
(14:32):
with grief at the
same time, right?
Just a bad
combination.
People, things
flare up.
People don't talk to each other
for the rest of their lives.
They get angry.
And it's important to talk to your
parent to find out what are their wishes.
Do they have a
healthcare directive?
And one of the best gifts you can give to
your families is to fill
out a healthcare directive.
My husband did
that for me.
(14:52):
And he said, absolutely, positively,
I do not want to go to the hospital.
Keep me at home.
I don't want to
be intubated.
I don't want to
be resuscitated.
I want, if, when my time comes, I
want my time to come and I wanted to
come at home.
And he was
really clear.
He wrote it down.
He signed it.
It was the
officiated.
And so when that time did come, there
(15:13):
wasn't any question because you have
questions when somebody is sick and you're
their caretaker, what you
want to do is get them
better, right?
You want to get them to the
hospital and get them better.
And that's
your reaction.
That's what
you want to do.
That was not what my husband wanted me
to do because the last time he was in the
hospital, he really
wasn't getting better.
So he realized that he
wanted to die at home.
And by having that form filled out, you
(15:35):
give a tremendous gift to whoever your
caretaker is because there will be no
discussion after, you know, your loved one
dies about what should have been
done because they made the decision.
And if you make the decision,
people might say, well, you killed.
You killed them.
You kept them home.
You should have taken
them to the hospital.
Who knew?
You know, those things
(15:55):
happen around a death.
And then that just
makes everything worse.
The other thing you need to do is get all
of your affairs in order to get your will,
in order to get everything put in
a binder, in a place where they,
a safe place where
they can get it.
Your family can get
to it right away.
When I die, I have everything in a
three-ring binder, including the titles to
my car, all my information
about the house and the home.
(16:16):
Every single thing they will need to
manage my estate is in a three-ring binder
in one place and page protector so they
can look through it and things aren't
going to fall out.
It's all organized.
And when I die, they'll know I love them
because I did all that work for them.
It's not really, actually,
it's not a lot of work.
If you have the materials, you
just stick them in that one place.
(16:37):
It's not as much
work as you think.
And not only that, but I also recommend
sending love letters to
your family after they die.
So they'll not only know I love
them because they have that binder,
but when they read through it,
they'll read little letters from me
telling them how much I love them, just
again, to send that message of love
and emotional support,
even beyond the grave.
(16:58):
How is the planning
of the will?
Because I would find that very interesting
because I have an older brother and we get
along really good, but I feel like,
just like anything, in the future,
there might be a discussion between
whatever my mom leaves us behind.
(17:18):
And I think conflict always comes about
when writing your will, did you talk with
your children beforehand or did you
do it on your own aside from them?
And they have
not seen it?
No, it just depends on what
you're comfortable with.
In my case, I feel that the, you know,
speak now or forever hold your peace.
Speak while
I'm alive.
It's better for me
to take it, right?
(17:38):
So I, when my husband, we wrote our will
and my husband was still alive and we are
both of our daughters
are attorneys.
So we sent the will to both of them
and said, okay, look through this.
And if there's anything you, you know,
you want to dispute, talk to us about it.
Um, because I, we want our, our greatest
legacy is a relationship between my two
daughters and they love each other dearly
and they're very close and I don't want to
(18:00):
cause any trouble
with that.
So you look through it and if, and if
once you, once you say it's okay to
sign forever,
hold your peace.
You can't come
back and complain.
And what I also did is I took things like
I have some jewelry that,
that they might like.
And so what I did is I, one day I took it
all over to my one daughter's house and I,
I had one person pick the first one and
then the other person picked the second
(18:20):
piece and the other person
picked the third piece.
They wrote it all down
and attached to my will.
So they know exactly what piece
of jewelry they'll, they'll get.
And eventually I'll do it for
my other things that they want.
Now, the unfortunate thing for us older
people is that, that the next generation
typically doesn't
want our stuff.
And it's, it's, it's horrifying to
us because we built our whole lives
(18:41):
collecting this stuff so that you
would have this wonderful stuff in your
generation and, and more
and more and more and more.
The next generation is saying,
we don't want your stuff.
We don't really
like the China.
We don't like the things
that were precious to us.
So we have to get
over that too.
We have to realize that, um, that we
raised grown adults who are independent
and have their own lives and
(19:01):
they don't need our stuff.
So we have to make
a plans for that.
And in my will, we ask that the kids can
go through and take whatever they want.
And then I have a
large extended family.
They can come through and
take whatever they want.
And then there are companies around now
that will come and dispose of your stuff,
which is fabulous because many times a
conflict occurs because one brother or
(19:23):
sister lives close to the family and
they're responsible for
getting rid of all the stuff.
And the other brother or sister is, you
know, a thousand miles away and they
don't have
to do it.
And there's resentment can build
up, you know, over these jobs.
So in my case, go through,
take what you want.
And then this company, I'll put
money aside for this company.
They'll just come and clear it
all out and then you're all done.
(19:44):
So I think making that easy for the
next generation is important because,
again, my goal is to have a happy,
close family when I die because the
greatest predictor of happiness has
been shown time and time and time again.
It's not
material wealth.
It's a quality of
your relationships.
And I want my children and my
grandchildren to be as happy as they can
(20:05):
and I'm doing everything I can to make
sure their relationships are good when I
go, that I'm not going to cause any
problem with their relationships.
That's very funny.
You mentioned the getting
rid of a bunch of stuff.
My mom's mentioned that before,
how she said that when she's gone,
she thinks like half of her stuff is going
to go out in the trash because no one's
going to want it.
(20:26):
And I was like, dang,
that's kind of true.
Like, we'll just donate it
because we don't like the taste.
We don't have
similar taste.
And the times are
going to change.
We're going
to leave.
And that's very true.
Going off of that, you provide
services for end-of-life planning.
How does that look for like a one-on-one
(20:46):
consultation or how does that planning go?
What I do is my partner, we're writing
a book called Rethinking Death.Life.
It's coming out in
a couple months.
And we're
death doulas.
And as a death doula, we help
prepare people for death.
And my specialty, the area that I really
work in is developing a legacy plan.
(21:08):
So I work with... I coach people to help
them get that legacy plan,
get that binder in order.
And I just
coach them.
Sometimes I have the book,
my book, Are You Ready?
How to Build a
Legacy to Die For.
It has a
step-by-step program.
If you can follow the book and you're
independent, you don't
need anybody to help you.
It's right there
in the book.
But there are people that just need
someone to hold their hand and help them
(21:28):
get through it.
And I do that
as a coach.
I also coach widows
through grief.
As a widow, I know that
80% of women die single.
75% of us
become widows.
So if you're a woman out there,
chances are you're going to die alone.
And you're going to
be single for a while.
And that is very difficult
when you lose your spouse.
(21:50):
And so I really try to help widows find
their purpose again,
because we're still here.
We're not gone yet.
So we're still here to find their purpose
and to move forward in their lives with
happiness and also less
dependency on their children.
Because many times, as an older woman,
as a 68-year-old, you got those two kids.
You know, I gave
(22:10):
birth to them.
You know, I gave birth to them and I
raised them and I took care of them.
And, you know, sometimes we have
expectations of how they'll take care of
us that might not be
legitimate expectations.
We just don't know how
that's going to be.
Everybody's a little
bit different.
And so we need to really
find our own purpose.
What is our purpose
as an individual?
We all have
a purpose.
(22:31):
We can love and we can find
things to do to keep us busy.
I think that's
important.
But we all
have a purpose.
And we need to
have that purpose.
We need to feel that we
are good enough alone.
I'm good enough
by myself.
And yet, you know, I'm
the woman with two places.
One place in
Kansas City.
I just, instead of a house, I downsized to
(22:51):
little tiny apartments in Kansas City and
Minneapolis so I could be
near my grandchildren, right?
So I'm living
that dream.
But I realized, too, the reason I'm...
one of the reasons I'm doing that is that
gives each.
..
I can be part of the lives of the
grandchildren, but I'm not overbearing.
I'm not there
all the time.
And if left to my own devices, I
would be stalking every
grandchildren every day.
I'd be peeking through their school thing
(23:13):
to see... are they doing okay in school?
Are they
being bullied?
You know,
what's going on?
That's what... I mean, that's what I
really want to do because
I just love them so much.
I just want to make
sure they're safe.
That's what
I want to do.
I can't do that.
That doesn't work.
They'd have restraining orders against me
if they allowed me to just go my own way.
So I really learned how
to set those boundaries.
I go to their house
when they call me.
I don't show up
unexpectedly.
(23:33):
I don't have expectations of where I'm
going to be on holidays because there are
other in-laws
to manage.
And in doing so, I actually... what I
found is by stepping back, I get invited
to everything because I'm
not... I don't feel so needy.
We have to kind of work
on that in our stage.
And I completely understand it because I'm
(23:54):
there myself, but we need to step back.
We need to just find our own purpose,
feel good with ourselves and who we are,
have friends our own age
because we all get it.
We talk about how nobody invites us
to, you know, Mother's Day anymore.
You know,
we do that.
We just do that amongst
ourselves and it's very freeing.
You know, we find that key because life
can still be good even if you're older.
(24:15):
And even if you're...
we become frail.
You know, I
have a new hip.
I've got, you know, my medically speaking,
things are starting to fall apart and it's
a hard time
of life.
And so we need to really work even harder
for that relationship
happiness with other people.
And part of that with our children is
keeping the boundaries that are there so
that they're healthy,
healthy boundaries.
(24:36):
How was it for that transition
from working and school that, like,
career-driven mind to shifting
more to a family-oriented?
Especially nowadays, a lot of younger
people are heavily focused on career.
And I was too.
And it made it difficult to focus on
family and things that would be more
(24:58):
fulfilling in life.
Well, it, you know, for me, I was very
fortunate because we owned our own
business, my
husband and I.
And so I was
done at four.
And I went to all of the... all three
of the kids were in sports and plays and
whatever activities
they decided to be in.
And we were at
every one of them.
So we were able to adjust our life,
(25:19):
our practice life, because we owned our
own business, to make sure we
were there as often as we could.
And that was
wonderful.
When the grandchildren
came, we did the same thing.
We really tried to get to all of the games
and all of the activities that they had.
And I will tell you that that
gave us so much happiness.
(25:40):
And those are the memories
that they carry with them.
They don't really carry the
memories of how hard it worked.
On the other side, you do have to
spend time building up your business.
And that does
take time.
So I think
that what...
The key is finding that happy
medium and that happy balance.
And my husband and I kind of helped each
other, because if one of us couldn't make
it, the other one
was always there.
So our kids always had somebody
(26:01):
at their games and their programs.
And my husband
coached.
He liked to coach.
So that was
his thing.
He liked
to do that.
But I think when you're looking at your
life, and now that I'm a death doula,
I can tell you, I've not heard any reports
of anyone saying that they wish they
worked harder
in their life.
But lots of people wish they'd
(26:22):
spent more time with their family.
And those relationships
are so precious.
How can someone go about
going through hardship?
Like, let's say they had a
rough, like, couple of years.
How should they go about, like,
especially getting older into,
like, their 30s, 40s, before it gets
to a point where it's hard to, like,
(26:45):
not recover, but make
up for the lost time?
Well, the problem with getting older
is it's just, it is hard because,
you know, you're, you don't, I, for
me, I need to get out
and exercise more.
I'm not as good
as I should be.
Part of that is because I have a lot of
arthritis and I had to get a new hip.
And so I use that as an excuse to not
go, but whereas I should be going out and
(27:05):
exercising and doing these things I should
be doing to help the new
hip, you know, I kind of
find excuses.
So as you get old, aging is a
difficult thing to begin with.
It's just hard when you can't do the
things you used to be able to do.
So try to stay as
healthy as you can.
Just do the
best you can.
And I, like I said, I'm not, I'm not a
guru in that, but just
do the best you can.
(27:26):
But also I think that when you're
overcoming grief, I think one of the
things that affected me the most, and
I lost a son to suicide, it was the
worst time
of my life.
I couldn't eat, I couldn't sleep,
I couldn't breathe, I
was a zombie, it was a
horrible thing.
And one of my husband's cousins came up to
me because I was, I just was in the pit.
(27:46):
I mean, I wanted to just, you know, get
in my bed and stay there
the rest of my life.
I didn't want
to get out.
Anyone who's been through
that knows it's just horrible.
And he came up to me one time and he was
angry with me and he was waving his finger
in my face.
And he said, don't you ever let your
remaining children feel
that they're not enough.
Don't do
(28:07):
that to them.
And it hit me like a lightning bolt
because he had lost his brother at about
the same age as
we lost our son.
He'd been out drinking, his friends left
him, thought they were doing him a favor
and left him
in his car.
In front of his house, but Minnesota gets
a little cold in the winter
and he froze to death
in his car.
It was terrible.
(28:27):
And his parents
were never the same.
They couldn't, they couldn't
overcome that grief.
They couldn't, they couldn't
get out of that pit.
And he felt that because of the death of
the son, his parents were so obsessed with
the grieving, the loss of the child they
didn't have, they could no longer focus on
(28:47):
the two children
that they did have.
And he told me that, right, as I was
in the middle, I was in the, you know,
path of going right down that,
taking that same journey, you know,
down into the pit.
And it made me realize I had two
daughters, even though they were adults,
they still
needed me.
And my husband had been, he just
had a liver transplant, he was sick.
He needed me.
And I realized that my
(29:08):
grief wasn't just about me.
It was about
everybody around me.
And I love
my daughters.
I love my husband.
And I didn't want to contribute
at all to their grief.
So I fought, I kicked,
I screamed, I got help.
And I got my, found my
way out of that grief pit.
And it was one of the
best things I ever did.
So I think when you, when you get down,
when you go down, when you have those bad
(29:30):
times, you need to
fight your way out.
It doesn't typically
happen by itself.
Yeah, it, in fact, it'll, it'll overtake
you quickly, just eat
you up, eat you alive.
And you have
to fight it.
You can't let that happen to you, to
you, not only for you,
but for your family.
And, and here I am, I'm 68 years old,
it's been 15 years since my son died.
(29:52):
And I'm like, you know, and I, I'll
never, you never get
over these things.
You work through it,
you move forward.
But I'm basically a
joyful, happy person.
And I'm able to show
that to my grandchildren.
I don't live with a
shroud around me anymore.
I did for many years, took a long time
to get out of that, but I don't have that
shroud around
me anymore.
So they get a grandmother that's in
(30:13):
it with them, that's there for them,
that has fun
with them.
And, and then ultimately
it comes back on me.
It's fun for me.
So no matter where you are down
in that pit, fight your way out.
It's worth
the battle.
And it might take years, it took me years,
but it's worth the battle to get out.
What are some things people can do like on
(30:35):
a daily basis as like a routine or a habit
to help recover from the grief,
to not stay stuck there
and, yeah, just be a
bit better?
Well, certainly things like diet and
exercise health, that always helps.
But I think it's the
mindset in the morning.
What happens when, like I wake up in the
morning and, and still, even sometimes to
(30:57):
this day, I wake up in the morning
and it just, you know, hits me.
You know, all this
loss has hit me.
And when I get up, I
just say, you know what?
I am not going to let
this consume me today.
And, and I happen
to be a Christian.
So I, you know, I
get Satan in there.
I'm not going to
get out of here.
I'm not, you're not
going to get me today.
I mean, so I use my
faith to kind of do that.
But, but really it's when you get up,
(31:21):
if you get your mind focused on getting
out of that pit and finding something else
to give you joy and realizing that that's
a terrible place to be and that you
don't deserve it, you need to get out.
I think that's a first thing
because then you'll fight.
It's a fight in the battle that really
is the important thing and get help.
I, you know, my mother and
(31:42):
son took their own lives.
I'm right in
the middle.
Depression's big
in my family.
So I, I treated for
depression and it works.
I get treatment
for that.
My husband did not get treated for
depression because he's, you know,
kind of a strong,
Norwegian farm boy, right?
They don't,
they're tough.
And, and it went
to his heart.
He's, his heart
checked out.
(32:02):
It's very healthy right before my son died
because he, he had a liver transplant.
They're not going to give you a
liver if your heart's not good.
So his heart was
in good shape.
And right after my son died, his heart
fell apart and he was, he had quadruple
bypass surgery, a valve
replaced, other heart surgeries.
His heart just fell apart and
eventually died from heart failure.
So I really believe that the
depression had a big role in that.
(32:23):
And if you look at the studies, you'll
see that depression and stress are
tied to heart disease, cardiovascular
disease, strokes, those types of things.
So it's, it's important for
your physical health as well.
And your generation is much
better at seeking help.
My generation tended not
to do that very often.
So, so go get some help, get help
(32:44):
for what, get help for depression.
If you find yourself in that pit and you
can't get out, get some help, but fight,
fight, keep
that battle up.
Don't give into it.
Yeah.
Especially nowadays, a lot of resources
like therapy is more
accessible and more accepting
than before.
And also a lot of people are willing to
(33:04):
take therapy, even if they, it's like a,
like a preemptively, like before they
start noticing major
impacts in their life.
So I think that's pretty good
for like the younger generation.
Absolutely.
And then going back to, uh, the end of
(33:24):
life, like, um, topic, how, how do people
like underestimate the costs of like
medical expenses, other expenses that are
related to like getting older and
that end of life, um, timeframe?
Well, it's the pits because we spend
a lot of time going to the doctor.
You know, we used to have time for social
(33:45):
things and now it's like, oh, I got,
oh, I got a doctor's appointment that day,
you know, because you've taken care of one
thing or the other.
They do get high.
Uh, uh, there's a number of medications
too, just to keep you alive.
My husband was on a number of medications
because he had a liver transplant,
then his heart disease
and he was diabetic.
And so there were so many medications that
he was on that were very, very expensive.
(34:06):
Also, I think that when you're,
when you're talking about hospice,
I, I'm a fan
of hospice.
I, I have written up my healthcare
directive and when, uh, when, when I've
been diagnosed as having a terminal
disease, which means I'm going to die
within so many months, usually it's six
months, uh, I, I plan to go into hospice
and hospice in the United States on,
(34:27):
if you have Medicare, uh, it's covered.
So those expenses
are not there.
They're, they're kind
of encouraging hospice.
Now, some people do not want to go
to hospice and that is their right.
I mean, people
can choose.
Choose, that's what
I'm trying to say here.
Let the person
that's dying choose.
Some people would prefer to be in a
hospital and, uh, and that option should
be available
(34:47):
to them too.
And, but at the hospital you do, they
do try to keep you alive
as long as possible.
And that might include intubation,
might include, uh, CPR,
those types of things.
So you have to
think about it.
You have to think about what you want and,
and there's no judgment as to one way is
right and one
way is wrong.
I think the judgment is, has to be in
your heart with what you want and your
(35:09):
survivors will be grateful if
they did what you want them to do.
That's really
critical.
And then what are some overlooked
decisions or documents that, um,
people overlook when providing like
instructions to their children or loved
ones that you see that, oh, they didn't
(35:29):
think about this or they
wish they would have done
this earlier?
Yeah.
In my book, I have a whole list of
everything you need because it's fairly
long and it doesn't take that
long to get them together.
Things like the passwords, what are
the passwords for your important, uh,
uh, internet, uh, your, your, your
Gmail, your other things, your, your,
(35:50):
your checking account, your savings
account, those types of things.
What is your, what
are your passwords?
Those are very
important.
Who are the people that have,
you know, who's your dog?
Who's your
attorney?
Who has the money?
Who's your
financial planner?
What are the numbers
of your accounts?
So they don't have to
try to track them down.
You should have all the numbers of
your retirement accounts,
your checking accounts.
All those things
should be listed.
(36:11):
And there are many, who
takes care of the dog, right?
You got a dog?
Who's going to take
care of the dog?
I don't have
the animals.
Well, I have some birds out there that
are on my, on my porch, but I don't have
anything I'm taking care of,
but who takes care of the dog?
Things like that, that
you might not think about.
Uh, one other thing I really recommend is
a letter of intent and a letter of intent
is something
you put in.
It's not a
(36:31):
legal document.
You write
it yourself.
It just goes in your binder and it tells
your family, it's kind of
a letter to your family.
It says, this is why I'm
doing what I'm doing.
Uh, in my case,
my case is simple.
I'm dividing
it 50-50.
I'm putting a little money aside for
each grandchildren, the same, same,
same amount, each of
the grandchildren.
And if many times you'll have something
(36:54):
that's unusual, say you have a member of
the family that might, um, have a
developmental disability or something that
requires additional resources
for that person's life.
You might put more
money aside for that.
Explain that in the
letter of intent.
Maybe somebody
took care of you.
Maybe one of your family members took care
of you for the last two years and you want
(37:16):
to provide them with some additional funds
to thank them for the time and effort that
they spent taking care of
you in those last days.
Because typically a family
member won't ask for money.
Or if they did ask for money, it's usually
better for them if they get the money as
an inheritance, which has less tax
than getting it if they paid you as a,
it's an employee.
So, so you may want to pay someone that
(37:37):
has been taking care of
you for the last few years.
If you don't write it out in a letter of
intent that it's in your handwriting so
everyone can understand that you made this
decision, it was a legitimate decision.
What happens afterward if a family member
finds that one family member got more than
they did, they start looking at,
at, at some sort of a protest,
(37:58):
you know, sometimes they'll
get the lawyers involved.
They'll say, wait a
minute, that's not fair.
I should have this.
So a letter of intent will clearly
document what you, why
you made the decisions
that you made.
The decisions you
make are in the will.
So that's the thing that holds, holds
firm, but why you made the decisions
is very important for the people, uh,
for your family members to understand
(38:19):
what your thinking was and to prevent
them from blaming other people for undue
influence on you.
Because many times they'll think,
well, she was around them all the time.
She must've talked them into
giving us all this money.
But if you say, you know, she worked for,
you know, 2000 hours for the last two
years, I'd like to reward her in my
will rather than just paying her.
That's a lot more understandable if
(38:39):
it's in your handwriting, because, uh,
once again, uh, when a conflict arises,
people kind of assume
the worst of everybody.
And so if you have it in your handwriting
so that everyone knows you made that
decision and there was a reason behind it,
you're going to prevent
conflict after you die.
And going about that process, like there
(39:00):
are families that like, uh, for example,
my mom doesn't
speak English.
How would I like really, um, go about that
process of, um, explain it to her in the
sense that to tell her that she
should try to make it in her vision.
(39:21):
And I would need to go through all this
process and not be like a bias towards me
for completing
all this.
Well, you know, one, if you have a, you
have a brother, you have any sisters,
brothers or sisters, a brother,
just, uh, one older brother.
So you have
a brother.
So this is the best thing when you're
working on us old people, we want you to
(39:41):
be happy and just say, you know,
mom, I want to make sure that,
that after you go, that we still have our
strong relationship and there's not any
controversy over what
happens after you die.
So could you sit down with us or maybe a
third party, sometimes having a neutral
party is the best
way to do it.
And it might cost a little bit to get
an attorney to fill that out for them,
(40:01):
but it's far less than the money you'd
spend trying to challenge anything and
certainly worth it for
your, your relationship.
So if you give her options, like, well,
let's, let's go get this done with
an attorney or with, you know, some
sort of a, uh, uh, a worker that can
help, you know, in your, in your area,
if she doesn't speak English, find a way
(40:22):
for her to get this all written down and
perhaps have a meeting with you and your
brother when you're
both there with her.
That might be helpful or she can,
or sometimes we feel like, well,
you know, this is,
this is my will.
I'm going to write it the
way I want to write it.
But that's, you know, that search would be
her choice, have her write it all down and
then share it with you first so that
everybody knows what's going on.
(40:43):
But I think if you, if you plan it in a
way, if you, if you tell her of what the
ultimate goal is that you and your
brother live in peace after she's gone,
that's an incentive to
a mom to get that done.
And if you frame it like
that, that's a good incentive.
We don't like, you know, we, we don't like
to think that you're, you're, everyone's
(41:03):
like waiting for
us to die, right?
To get our
stuff, right?
That's, we don't
want that to happen.
So if you just talk about your
relationship, how after you die,
we want to make sure that our relationship
is nice and strong and intact and we need
to have as much
clarity as we can.
So let's talk
about this.
I think that would be
really helpful for your mom.
Yeah, I think that sounds
like a really good plan.
(41:24):
Do you have any final
words for our audience?
I think that, you know, the clock
is ticking, you know, death comes
unexpectedly, the clock is ticking, the
time to get your, get ready is right
now, get your stuff ready now, because
you just never know
what's going to happen.
It's the best gift you
can give to your family.
(41:46):
Wow.
Thank you for
coming on podcast.
I hope our audience learned
just as much as I did.
I think it's a topic that isn't very
discussed, especially out there in media.
or even in real life, and I'll have all
your information in the description below.
So if anyone is listening and is
interested in learning more about Dr.
(42:07):
Kimberly and the services you provide,
or also just looking at what type of
information is out there when it comes to
our aging parents to make sure that they
leave happily that we are in a good
position and not going to fight after
their death or
anything like that.
Right.
And you can just go to my website,
drkimberlyharms.com and find whatever you
(42:29):
need on there.
We have some free, we have some free
giveaways for how to have that discussion
with your family.
We have a four-step
guide that's free.
So we've got lots of
resources there for you.
Yeah.
Thank you so much.
You're welcome.
Thank you.
Welcome to The
(00:00):
Wealth Effect.
Today we have
Dr. Kimberly with us.
She has an impressive
amount of accomplishments.
She has served as commissioned officer in
the United States Public Health Service,
a dental school professor, a clinical
dentist with her late husband Jim in
Farmington, Minnesota, a school board
chair, president of an international
(00:23):
women's organization, vice chair of the
Union Gospel Mission Board, the first
woman president in Minnesota's Dental
Association and a national spokesperson
for the American
Dental Association.
Then she became a grief counselor,
a civil meditator, a death doula,
(00:45):
a life coach, an award-winning
best-selling author, and an international
speaker on the topics of grief,
conflict, and legacy planning.
Wow, that is
very impressive.
Thank you for
being on the show.
Thank you.
I'm old.
When you have a lot of time,
you can do a lot of things.
I guess we could start
at the beginning.
(01:06):
Where did you grow up, and was
it a small town, or how was it?
Actually,
I grew up.
My father was in the Navy, so
I went all around the country.
I was born in California,
went to Florida.
You know, we
were all over.
But I grew up mainly, he was stationed
at the Pentagon, so most of my life from
first grade onward was
in Maryland, in the D.C.
suburbs.
(01:26):
Wow, that's
very different.
I did not
expect that.
Never really heard anyone
growing up around those areas.
Do you think that influenced, like,
your dreams of what you wanted to become
if you wanted to join Navy
or go a different route?
Well, I did end up being a member of the
public health service, but what influenced
me most was my first
(01:47):
week at school.
I was just 17, and I was at the University
of Maryland, and there was this really
cute guy named Jim Harms, and
he wanted to be a dentist.
And so I thought,
this was the 70s.
Forgive me.
Don't do this,
anyone now.
This is very
old thinking.
But I thought, you know, if I became
a dentist, he would marry me, maybe.
And so I did.
And he did,
and he did.
(02:08):
And so it all
worked out.
My plan
worked great.
And I ended up
loving dentistry.
There were very few
women in those days.
But it's about half the
graduating class now is women.
So it was, although it was unusual
then, it certainly isn't anymore.
How was it financing or going
to college at those times?
Did you have to pay at pocket, or
(02:28):
was it more affordable back then?
Yeah.
You know, it was
much more affordable.
I worked three jobs, and I paid for
all my education, my living expenses,
everything out of
those three jobs.
So I was lucky because
I was in Washington.
I got a junior fellowship with the
Department of Agriculture, which paid
$4.50 an hour.
(02:49):
And then I worked at
McDonald's, which was $1.50.
And then I had another job as an
accountant, which, and I'm not a really
good accountant, but it was a small
construction firm, had me come in and do
some bookkeeping.
And then I worked in
the Evolution Lab.
Actually, I had
four jobs, I guess.
I worked at the Evolution Lab
at the University of Maryland.
So I just worked a lot
and paid for my education.
(03:09):
But the wonderful thing back then is,
like, I was probably working maybe 40
hours a week and going
to school about the same.
I was working very hard, but I was able to
pay my tuition because it was less then.
You know, tuition has skyrocketed, so
it makes it much more difficult now.
But I didn't actually, I didn't even
go into debt, and I got no loans,
(03:30):
or my parents wouldn't fill out any forms,
so I didn't get any
loans or any other help.
But I was able to do it by working,
which I don't think is really possible
anymore because the costs
have gone up so much.
Yeah, it's very difficult without
scholarships or external help.
How did you manage
your stress?
Because
that's a lot.
I didn't have, like, a traditional job
(03:51):
in college just because I had enough
scholarships, and I just needed
to maintain a really high GPA.
Well, it was what I had to do, and
I think that when you're faced with
the situation, and I wanted to go to
college, that if I wanted to go to
college, I had to make my way through
and work my way through, and I think that
really helped it.
But, yeah, I did not have really much free
(04:13):
time, and I think that's
how I started dating my
husband, Jim.
He was also working his way through
college, and so our dates were usually at
the library.
So I think we just combined some things
because we were both very busy and we're
both working
really hard.
And how was it transitioning from
college to practicing dentists?
(04:39):
Well, when I got to dental school,
I have to say, I got a public health
service scholarship, and that was
wonderful because that took care of the
transition because when I got out of
dental school, my husband also had a
public health
scholarship.
When we got out of dental school, we
were sent to a location in Illinois,
an underserved
area.
It's called the National Health Service
(04:59):
Corps, which is part of the Coast Guard.
And so we were
sent there.
We did a little externship at the
Coast Guard base in California.
So we were kind of given, you know, we
were given our instructions right after
dental school, practice for three years,
worked off our obligation, and then we
went on to buy our own
practice a few years later.
(05:21):
Wow, that's pretty
interesting.
How did you go about
opening your own practice?
Did you feel overwhelmed because you
didn't, like, particularly study business?
That's true.
We had... we purchased an existing
practice, and we... and the dentist that
was working there stayed for about three
(05:42):
months, kind of, with the transition,
and we just
took over.
And that's a very typical... in fact,
my daughter is a dental attorney.
That's what she helps people do, is
to transition from
being an associate or...
Usually, most people don't come right
out of dental school and buy a practice
because they need to have a little work
experience under their belt, typically,
(06:02):
to get a loan.
But, you know, they work as an associate
with someone, and then they go on and buy
the practice.
Either the one that they're in,
or perhaps a different practice.
But that's... that's kind of the
way things... things are going.
And then how... did you feel, like,
having a higher income from being a
dentist, did you
feel more free?
(06:23):
As, you know, money does buy some
luxuries, being able to travel,
being able to do a lot more things,
especially coming from your background
with having
so many jobs.
Well, my husband
was a farmer.
He grew up
on a farm.
And what we did is, we put the money in
the barn, is that what he liked to say?
And we put our money, we
invested back into the practice.
(06:44):
We bought a
beautiful building.
We actually managed to have a
very large practice, eventually.
And we did... we
were in a small town.
And that was...
that was wonderful.
It was a great place
to raise our kids.
It was a small
town in Minnesota.
So we didn't feel
quite the pressure.
Growing up on the East Coast, I felt
a little more pressure to make money.
Growing up in the Midwest, we
(07:04):
didn't feel quite as much pressure.
And so, therefore, I was able to
participate on the school board and as,
you know, in organized dentistry as
president of the Dental Association.
So I was able to do
more of those things.
We had a really
good lifestyle.
I don't think... we didn't
feel like we were super rich.
And we invested a lot in
our children's education.
(07:25):
We paid for their
college tuition.
And then when they went on to law
school, we said we'd pay their tuition,
but they could live at home if they wanted
because they went to local law schools in
Minneapolis.
But they chose not to, and
they went into student debt.
So they could really talk to you a little
bit about maybe they would have changed
that decision if they
had thought about it.
They would have probably stayed at
(07:46):
home and not had the student debt.
But, you know, you make decisions when
you're 21 and 22 that can affect the rest
of your life.
Yeah.
How did you go about managing,
like, planning out all this?
Did you figure it out on your own, or
did you go seek out help in any way?
(08:07):
We knew how hard
it was to make it.
And so we were
fairly frugal.
We took vacations.
We felt that travel was a really
important thing for our family.
We kind of focused on
experiences with the family.
We had a very nice home, but
it wasn't really extravagant.
It was a very nice
one in our community.
And I think that the motto that we really
(08:30):
lived by was we lived below our means.
And we did invest
in retirement.
And that was a really smart move because
when I was 54, I developed nerve damage in
my drilling
fingers.
And, you know, there
went my career.
I was working full-time one day,
and then I was done the next.
(08:51):
And that was a shock because we
were planning on using those years,
you know, 50 to 60 to really
save up for our retirement plan.
But because we had planned early, lived
low, you know, lower
than we needed to.
We really weren't living low, but we were
living lower than we could have lived.
I was able to retire at 54, and then
(09:12):
that's when I started working with the
grief counseling and civil mediation and
those things, which I just love to do.
And so I had to reconstruct myself,
as we do, quite frequently in life.
And then when I lost my husband and became
a widow, then you have to reconstruct
yourself again.
So probably the best advice I can give on
just living a life when it comes to money
(09:35):
is to live below your means
for as long as you can.
But take
some trips.
Remember that your legacy is being built
every day with the people that you're
around, with
the children.
children, do some fun things with the
kids, spend money on that,
spend money on education
for the kids.
Because one of the wonderful things I
found out is that both of my kids are
(09:55):
attorneys, are
both successful.
I don't need to
help them anymore.
And in fact, they said, Mom,
don't save your money up for us.
We're fine.
You can use it to
fund your retirement.
Don't save
it up for us.
And that gave me the freedom, really,
to do the things I'm doing now.
Because I
love writing.
I love...
I talk about grief and
conflict and things like that.
(10:15):
And I just have a great time speaking and
writing books and kind of being with my
grandchildren.
I have a place here
in Kansas City.
And then I also have a place in
Minneapolis because I have three
grandchildren here and
three grandchildren there.
And I have not forgotten
my most important job.
And that is to be a good granny to
those little grandchildren of mine.
And so I want to be part of
(10:36):
both sets of grandchildren.
I want to be part of their
lives on a day-to-day basis.
And that's where
you get your...
You know, I really
think emotional wealth.
That's where
you are...
I feel very
emotionally wealthy.
And I have these wonderful grandchildren
that I'm trying to teach them how to
become resilient and
how to get through life.
Because one generation, we
pass that on to the next.
(10:57):
Life's not easy.
It's kind of hard.
So you got to teach
some of these lessons.
Yeah, especially nowadays where things are
coming up at earlier and earlier stages,
especially
with media.
Things like wars are becoming
more known to younger children.
And it becomes a point of like, do
you talk to them about like death in
(11:18):
that sense?
Because they're going to come across it,
whether it is in their personal life or
the media and the
outside world.
How would you
go about that?
Like talking to someone that's younger,
let's say like under 15, talking about
like death or
their aging parent?
Because I
know for...
Even for me, I find talking about death,
about a family member, very uncomfortable
(11:41):
and hard to even bring up
because my mom is like 53.
And she's, I would say on the younger
side, but I know it will come one day.
Well, I'm 68, so I'm a little
older than your mother.
And what is so critically important,
it's so critically important to build
(12:03):
resilience.
And when I lost my husband five years ago,
my grandchildren were very close to him.
Fortunately, he was able to meet all
of them and they all remember him.
And I keep his
memory alive.
But through pictures, I take lots of
pictures and, you know, we take trips and
we talk about
them quite a bit.
But when he died, I saw the
effect it had on my children.
It was really hard.
(12:24):
They were just
devastated.
It took them a long
time to recover.
And my legacy to them is that even though
I know they love me and hopefully they'll
love me a lot, you know, but I want them
to realize that the best thing they can do
for me is to flourish
and to thrive.
And I know there'll be some grief over
losing me, but I want them to remember the
(12:46):
things that I
taught them.
And I work really hard to teach them
how to love people, how to be kind,
how to be, have some
resilience in their lives.
So I try to really
focus on that now.
And I do talk to them
about when I die.
I'll say, you
know what?
At some point, Nana, you
know, Nana's going to die.
I'm going to die.
And, and, you know, you need to go
on and you need to have a great life.
And I want to see you
(13:07):
have a great life.
And I know it works because just a few
months ago, my little eight-year-old
granddaughter, Heidi, looked up at me from
the dinner table and she was really kind
of, you know, a little nervous
about asking this question.
She said, Nana.
And I said,
yeah, Heidi.
She goes, well, if what happened to
Pop-Pop happens to you, and I said,
(13:27):
you mean if I
were to die?
And she said, yeah,
Nana, if you were to die.
And I said, go ahead, Heidi, if I were
to die, what question do you have?
She said, well, if you were to die,
we still go on the Disney cruise.
I said, yes, yes, you can
go on the Disney cruise.
And by the way,
that's a great idea.
So what I, what I'm doing now is I'm
(13:49):
putting money aside from my will,
in my will to cover a trip for my family,
for my whole family going on a trip to
remember me and to be happy, to
remember that I want them to be joyful.
I want them to
have a good life.
My, you know, my time on earth would be
done at that point, but I want them to
have a good life and
flourish and go forward.
And that's one of the best legacies
(14:10):
we can give to our families.
And you mentioned not wanting to talk to
your family about what
happens when they die.
And that, that, that can be a problem
because what happens in our country,
in the United States, it's 75% of families
go through conflict surrounding the death
of a loved one.
And that's not a good time to be in
conflict because you're, you're overcome
(14:32):
with grief at the
same time, right?
Just a bad
combination.
People, things
flare up.
People don't talk to each other
for the rest of their lives.
They get angry.
And it's important to talk to your
parent to find out what are their wishes.
Do they have a
healthcare directive?
And one of the best gifts you can give to
your families is to fill
out a healthcare directive.
My husband did
that for me.
(14:52):
And he said, absolutely, positively,
I do not want to go to the hospital.
Keep me at home.
I don't want to
be intubated.
I don't want to
be resuscitated.
I want, if, when my time comes, I
want my time to come and I wanted to
come at home.
And he was
really clear.
He wrote it down.
He signed it.
It was the
officiated.
And so when that time did come, there
(15:13):
wasn't any question because you have
questions when somebody is sick and you're
their caretaker, what you
want to do is get them
better, right?
You want to get them to the
hospital and get them better.
And that's
your reaction.
That's what
you want to do.
That was not what my husband wanted me
to do because the last time he was in the
hospital, he really
wasn't getting better.
So he realized that he
wanted to die at home.
And by having that form filled out, you
(15:35):
give a tremendous gift to whoever your
caretaker is because there will be no
discussion after, you know, your loved one
dies about what should have been
done because they made the decision.
And if you make the decision,
people might say, well, you killed.
You killed them.
You kept them home.
You should have taken
them to the hospital.
Who knew?
You know, those things
(15:55):
happen around a death.
And then that just
makes everything worse.
The other thing you need to do is get all
of your affairs in order to get your will,
in order to get everything put in
a binder, in a place where they,
a safe place where
they can get it.
Your family can get
to it right away.
When I die, I have everything in a
three-ring binder, including the titles to
my car, all my information
about the house and the home.
(16:16):
Every single thing they will need to
manage my estate is in a three-ring binder
in one place and page protector so they
can look through it and things aren't
going to fall out.
It's all organized.
And when I die, they'll know I love them
because I did all that work for them.
It's not really, actually,
it's not a lot of work.
If you have the materials, you
just stick them in that one place.
(16:37):
It's not as much
work as you think.
And not only that, but I also recommend
sending love letters to
your family after they die.
So they'll not only know I love
them because they have that binder,
but when they read through it,
they'll read little letters from me
telling them how much I love them, just
again, to send that message of love
and emotional support,
even beyond the grave.
(16:58):
How is the planning
of the will?
Because I would find that very interesting
because I have an older brother and we get
along really good, but I feel like,
just like anything, in the future,
there might be a discussion between
whatever my mom leaves us behind.
(17:18):
And I think conflict always comes about
when writing your will, did you talk with
your children beforehand or did you
do it on your own aside from them?
And they have
not seen it?
No, it just depends on what
you're comfortable with.
In my case, I feel that the, you know,
speak now or forever hold your peace.
Speak while
I'm alive.
It's better for me
to take it, right?
(17:38):
So I, when my husband, we wrote our will
and my husband was still alive and we are
both of our daughters
are attorneys.
So we sent the will to both of them
and said, okay, look through this.
And if there's anything you, you know,
you want to dispute, talk to us about it.
Um, because I, we want our, our greatest
legacy is a relationship between my two
daughters and they love each other dearly
and they're very close and I don't want to
(18:00):
cause any trouble
with that.
So you look through it and if, and if
once you, once you say it's okay to
sign forever,
hold your peace.
You can't come
back and complain.
And what I also did is I took things like
I have some jewelry that,
that they might like.
And so what I did is I, one day I took it
all over to my one daughter's house and I,
I had one person pick the first one and
then the other person picked the second
(18:20):
piece and the other person
picked the third piece.
They wrote it all down
and attached to my will.
So they know exactly what piece
of jewelry they'll, they'll get.
And eventually I'll do it for
my other things that they want.
Now, the unfortunate thing for us older
people is that, that the next generation
typically doesn't
want our stuff.
And it's, it's, it's horrifying to
us because we built our whole lives
(18:41):
collecting this stuff so that you
would have this wonderful stuff in your
generation and, and more
and more and more and more.
The next generation is saying,
we don't want your stuff.
We don't really
like the China.
We don't like the things
that were precious to us.
So we have to get
over that too.
We have to realize that, um, that we
raised grown adults who are independent
and have their own lives and
(19:01):
they don't need our stuff.
So we have to make
a plans for that.
And in my will, we ask that the kids can
go through and take whatever they want.
And then I have a
large extended family.
They can come through and
take whatever they want.
And then there are companies around now
that will come and dispose of your stuff,
which is fabulous because many times a
conflict occurs because one brother or
(19:23):
sister lives close to the family and
they're responsible for
getting rid of all the stuff.
And the other brother or sister is, you
know, a thousand miles away and they
don't have
to do it.
And there's resentment can build
up, you know, over these jobs.
So in my case, go through,
take what you want.
And then this company, I'll put
money aside for this company.
They'll just come and clear it
all out and then you're all done.
(19:44):
So I think making that easy for the
next generation is important because,
again, my goal is to have a happy,
close family when I die because the
greatest predictor of happiness has
been shown time and time and time again.
It's not
material wealth.
It's a quality of
your relationships.
And I want my children and my
grandchildren to be as happy as they can
(20:05):
and I'm doing everything I can to make
sure their relationships are good when I
go, that I'm not going to cause any
problem with their relationships.
That's very funny.
You mentioned the getting
rid of a bunch of stuff.
My mom's mentioned that before,
how she said that when she's gone,
she thinks like half of her stuff is going
to go out in the trash because no one's
going to want it.
(20:26):
And I was like, dang,
that's kind of true.
Like, we'll just donate it
because we don't like the taste.
We don't have
similar taste.
And the times are
going to change.
We're going
to leave.
And that's very true.
Going off of that, you provide
services for end-of-life planning.
How does that look for like a one-on-one
(20:46):
consultation or how does that planning go?
What I do is my partner, we're writing
a book called Rethinking Death.Life.
It's coming out in
a couple months.
And we're
death doulas.
And as a death doula, we help
prepare people for death.
And my specialty, the area that I really
work in is developing a legacy plan.
(21:08):
So I work with... I coach people to help
them get that legacy plan,
get that binder in order.
And I just
coach them.
Sometimes I have the book,
my book, Are You Ready?
How to Build a
Legacy to Die For.
It has a
step-by-step program.
If you can follow the book and you're
independent, you don't
need anybody to help you.
It's right there
in the book.
But there are people that just need
someone to hold their hand and help them
(21:28):
get through it.
And I do that
as a coach.
I also coach widows
through grief.
As a widow, I know that
80% of women die single.
75% of us
become widows.
So if you're a woman out there,
chances are you're going to die alone.
And you're going to
be single for a while.
And that is very difficult
when you lose your spouse.
(21:50):
And so I really try to help widows find
their purpose again,
because we're still here.
We're not gone yet.
So we're still here to find their purpose
and to move forward in their lives with
happiness and also less
dependency on their children.
Because many times, as an older woman,
as a 68-year-old, you got those two kids.
You know, I gave
(22:10):
birth to them.
You know, I gave birth to them and I
raised them and I took care of them.
And, you know, sometimes we have
expectations of how they'll take care of
us that might not be
legitimate expectations.
We just don't know how
that's going to be.
Everybody's a little
bit different.
And so we need to really
find our own purpose.
What is our purpose
as an individual?
We all have
a purpose.
(22:31):
We can love and we can find
things to do to keep us busy.
I think that's
important.
But we all
have a purpose.
And we need to
have that purpose.
We need to feel that we
are good enough alone.
I'm good enough
by myself.
And yet, you know, I'm
the woman with two places.
One place in
Kansas City.
I just, instead of a house, I downsized to
(22:51):
little tiny apartments in Kansas City and
Minneapolis so I could be
near my grandchildren, right?
So I'm living
that dream.
But I realized, too, the reason I'm...
one of the reasons I'm doing that is that
gives each.
..
I can be part of the lives of the
grandchildren, but I'm not overbearing.
I'm not there
all the time.
And if left to my own devices, I
would be stalking every
grandchildren every day.
I'd be peeking through their school thing
(23:13):
to see... are they doing okay in school?
Are they
being bullied?
You know,
what's going on?
That's what... I mean, that's what I
really want to do because
I just love them so much.
I just want to make
sure they're safe.
That's what
I want to do.
I can't do that.
That doesn't work.
They'd have restraining orders against me
if they allowed me to just go my own way.
So I really learned how
to set those boundaries.
I go to their house
when they call me.
I don't show up
unexpectedly.
(23:33):
I don't have expectations of where I'm
going to be on holidays because there are
other in-laws
to manage.
And in doing so, I actually... what I
found is by stepping back, I get invited
to everything because I'm
not... I don't feel so needy.
We have to kind of work
on that in our stage.
And I completely understand it because I'm
(23:54):
there myself, but we need to step back.
We need to just find our own purpose,
feel good with ourselves and who we are,
have friends our own age
because we all get it.
We talk about how nobody invites us
to, you know, Mother's Day anymore.
You know,
we do that.
We just do that amongst
ourselves and it's very freeing.
You know, we find that key because life
can still be good even if you're older.
(24:15):
And even if you're...
we become frail.
You know, I
have a new hip.
I've got, you know, my medically speaking,
things are starting to fall apart and it's
a hard time
of life.
And so we need to really work even harder
for that relationship
happiness with other people.
And part of that with our children is
keeping the boundaries that are there so
that they're healthy,
healthy boundaries.
(24:36):
How was it for that transition
from working and school that, like,
career-driven mind to shifting
more to a family-oriented?
Especially nowadays, a lot of younger
people are heavily focused on career.
And I was too.
And it made it difficult to focus on
family and things that would be more
(24:58):
fulfilling in life.
Well, it, you know, for me, I was very
fortunate because we owned our own
business, my
husband and I.
And so I was
done at four.
And I went to all of the... all three
of the kids were in sports and plays and
whatever activities
they decided to be in.
And we were at
every one of them.
So we were able to adjust our life,
(25:19):
our practice life, because we owned our
own business, to make sure we
were there as often as we could.
And that was
wonderful.
When the grandchildren
came, we did the same thing.
We really tried to get to all of the games
and all of the activities that they had.
And I will tell you that that
gave us so much happiness.
(25:40):
And those are the memories
that they carry with them.
They don't really carry the
memories of how hard it worked.
On the other side, you do have to
spend time building up your business.
And that does
take time.
So I think
that what...
The key is finding that happy
medium and that happy balance.
And my husband and I kind of helped each
other, because if one of us couldn't make
it, the other one
was always there.
So our kids always had somebody
(26:01):
at their games and their programs.
And my husband
coached.
He liked to coach.
So that was
his thing.
He liked
to do that.
But I think when you're looking at your
life, and now that I'm a death doula,
I can tell you, I've not heard any reports
of anyone saying that they wish they
worked harder
in their life.
But lots of people wish they'd
(26:22):
spent more time with their family.
And those relationships
are so precious.
How can someone go about
going through hardship?
Like, let's say they had a
rough, like, couple of years.
How should they go about, like,
especially getting older into,
like, their 30s, 40s, before it gets
to a point where it's hard to, like,
(26:45):
not recover, but make
up for the lost time?
Well, the problem with getting older
is it's just, it is hard because,
you know, you're, you don't, I, for
me, I need to get out
and exercise more.
I'm not as good
as I should be.
Part of that is because I have a lot of
arthritis and I had to get a new hip.
And so I use that as an excuse to not
go, but whereas I should be going out and
(27:05):
exercising and doing these things I should
be doing to help the new
hip, you know, I kind of
find excuses.
So as you get old, aging is a
difficult thing to begin with.
It's just hard when you can't do the
things you used to be able to do.
So try to stay as
healthy as you can.
Just do the
best you can.
And I, like I said, I'm not, I'm not a
guru in that, but just
do the best you can.
(27:26):
But also I think that when you're
overcoming grief, I think one of the
things that affected me the most, and
I lost a son to suicide, it was the
worst time
of my life.
I couldn't eat, I couldn't sleep,
I couldn't breathe, I
was a zombie, it was a
horrible thing.
And one of my husband's cousins came up to
me because I was, I just was in the pit.
(27:46):
I mean, I wanted to just, you know, get
in my bed and stay there
the rest of my life.
I didn't want
to get out.
Anyone who's been through
that knows it's just horrible.
And he came up to me one time and he was
angry with me and he was waving his finger
in my face.
And he said, don't you ever let your
remaining children feel
that they're not enough.
Don't do
(28:07):
that to them.
And it hit me like a lightning bolt
because he had lost his brother at about
the same age as
we lost our son.
He'd been out drinking, his friends left
him, thought they were doing him a favor
and left him
in his car.
In front of his house, but Minnesota gets
a little cold in the winter
and he froze to death
in his car.
It was terrible.
(28:27):
And his parents
were never the same.
They couldn't, they couldn't
overcome that grief.
They couldn't, they couldn't
get out of that pit.
And he felt that because of the death of
the son, his parents were so obsessed with
the grieving, the loss of the child they
didn't have, they could no longer focus on
(28:47):
the two children
that they did have.
And he told me that, right, as I was
in the middle, I was in the, you know,
path of going right down that,
taking that same journey, you know,
down into the pit.
And it made me realize I had two
daughters, even though they were adults,
they still
needed me.
And my husband had been, he just
had a liver transplant, he was sick.
He needed me.
And I realized that my
(29:08):
grief wasn't just about me.
It was about
everybody around me.
And I love
my daughters.
I love my husband.
And I didn't want to contribute
at all to their grief.
So I fought, I kicked,
I screamed, I got help.
And I got my, found my
way out of that grief pit.
And it was one of the
best things I ever did.
So I think when you, when you get down,
when you go down, when you have those bad
(29:30):
times, you need to
fight your way out.
It doesn't typically
happen by itself.
Yeah, it, in fact, it'll, it'll overtake
you quickly, just eat
you up, eat you alive.
And you have
to fight it.
You can't let that happen to you, to
you, not only for you,
but for your family.
And, and here I am, I'm 68 years old,
it's been 15 years since my son died.
(29:52):
And I'm like, you know, and I, I'll
never, you never get
over these things.
You work through it,
you move forward.
But I'm basically a
joyful, happy person.
And I'm able to show
that to my grandchildren.
I don't live with a
shroud around me anymore.
I did for many years, took a long time
to get out of that, but I don't have that
shroud around
me anymore.
So they get a grandmother that's in
(30:13):
it with them, that's there for them,
that has fun
with them.
And, and then ultimately
it comes back on me.
It's fun for me.
So no matter where you are down
in that pit, fight your way out.
It's worth
the battle.
And it might take years, it took me years,
but it's worth the battle to get out.
What are some things people can do like on
(30:35):
a daily basis as like a routine or a habit
to help recover from the grief,
to not stay stuck there
and, yeah, just be a
bit better?
Well, certainly things like diet and
exercise health, that always helps.
But I think it's the
mindset in the morning.
What happens when, like I wake up in the
morning and, and still, even sometimes to
(30:57):
this day, I wake up in the morning
and it just, you know, hits me.
You know, all this
loss has hit me.
And when I get up, I
just say, you know what?
I am not going to let
this consume me today.
And, and I happen
to be a Christian.
So I, you know, I
get Satan in there.
I'm not going to
get out of here.
I'm not, you're not
going to get me today.
I mean, so I use my
faith to kind of do that.
But, but really it's when you get up,
(31:21):
if you get your mind focused on getting
out of that pit and finding something else
to give you joy and realizing that that's
a terrible place to be and that you
don't deserve it, you need to get out.
I think that's a first thing
because then you'll fight.
It's a fight in the battle that really
is the important thing and get help.
I, you know, my mother and
(31:42):
son took their own lives.
I'm right in
the middle.
Depression's big
in my family.
So I, I treated for
depression and it works.
I get treatment
for that.
My husband did not get treated for
depression because he's, you know,
kind of a strong,
Norwegian farm boy, right?
They don't,
they're tough.
And, and it went
to his heart.
He's, his heart
checked out.
(32:02):
It's very healthy right before my son died
because he, he had a liver transplant.
They're not going to give you a
liver if your heart's not good.
So his heart was
in good shape.
And right after my son died, his heart
fell apart and he was, he had quadruple
bypass surgery, a valve
replaced, other heart surgeries.
His heart just fell apart and
eventually died from heart failure.
So I really believe that the
depression had a big role in that.
(32:23):
And if you look at the studies, you'll
see that depression and stress are
tied to heart disease, cardiovascular
disease, strokes, those types of things.
So it's, it's important for
your physical health as well.
And your generation is much
better at seeking help.
My generation tended not
to do that very often.
So, so go get some help, get help
(32:44):
for what, get help for depression.
If you find yourself in that pit and you
can't get out, get some help, but fight,
fight, keep
that battle up.
Don't give into it.
Yeah.
Especially nowadays, a lot of resources
like therapy is more
accessible and more accepting
than before.
And also a lot of people are willing to
(33:04):
take therapy, even if they, it's like a,
like a preemptively, like before they
start noticing major
impacts in their life.
So I think that's pretty good
for like the younger generation.
Absolutely.
And then going back to, uh, the end of
(33:24):
life, like, um, topic, how, how do people
like underestimate the costs of like
medical expenses, other expenses that are
related to like getting older and
that end of life, um, timeframe?
Well, it's the pits because we spend
a lot of time going to the doctor.
You know, we used to have time for social
(33:45):
things and now it's like, oh, I got,
oh, I got a doctor's appointment that day,
you know, because you've taken care of one
thing or the other.
They do get high.
Uh, uh, there's a number of medications
too, just to keep you alive.
My husband was on a number of medications
because he had a liver transplant,
then his heart disease
and he was diabetic.
And so there were so many medications that
he was on that were very, very expensive.
(34:06):
Also, I think that when you're,
when you're talking about hospice,
I, I'm a fan
of hospice.
I, I have written up my healthcare
directive and when, uh, when, when I've
been diagnosed as having a terminal
disease, which means I'm going to die
within so many months, usually it's six
months, uh, I, I plan to go into hospice
and hospice in the United States on,
(34:27):
if you have Medicare, uh, it's covered.
So those expenses
are not there.
They're, they're kind
of encouraging hospice.
Now, some people do not want to go
to hospice and that is their right.
I mean, people
can choose.
Choose, that's what
I'm trying to say here.
Let the person
that's dying choose.
Some people would prefer to be in a
hospital and, uh, and that option should
be available
(34:47):
to them too.
And, but at the hospital you do, they
do try to keep you alive
as long as possible.
And that might include intubation,
might include, uh, CPR,
those types of things.
So you have to
think about it.
You have to think about what you want and,
and there's no judgment as to one way is
right and one
way is wrong.
I think the judgment is, has to be in
your heart with what you want and your
(35:09):
survivors will be grateful if
they did what you want them to do.
That's really
critical.
And then what are some overlooked
decisions or documents that, um,
people overlook when providing like
instructions to their children or loved
ones that you see that, oh, they didn't
(35:29):
think about this or they
wish they would have done
this earlier?
Yeah.
In my book, I have a whole list of
everything you need because it's fairly
long and it doesn't take that
long to get them together.
Things like the passwords, what are
the passwords for your important, uh,
uh, internet, uh, your, your, your
Gmail, your other things, your, your,
(35:50):
your checking account, your savings
account, those types of things.
What is your, what
are your passwords?
Those are very
important.
Who are the people that have,
you know, who's your dog?
Who's your
attorney?
Who has the money?
Who's your
financial planner?
What are the numbers
of your accounts?
So they don't have to
try to track them down.
You should have all the numbers of
your retirement accounts,
your checking accounts.
All those things
should be listed.
(36:11):
And there are many, who
takes care of the dog, right?
You got a dog?
Who's going to take
care of the dog?
I don't have
the animals.
Well, I have some birds out there that
are on my, on my porch, but I don't have
anything I'm taking care of,
but who takes care of the dog?
Things like that, that
you might not think about.
Uh, one other thing I really recommend is
a letter of intent and a letter of intent
is something
you put in.
It's not a
(36:31):
legal document.
You write
it yourself.
It just goes in your binder and it tells
your family, it's kind of
a letter to your family.
It says, this is why I'm
doing what I'm doing.
Uh, in my case,
my case is simple.
I'm dividing
it 50-50.
I'm putting a little money aside for
each grandchildren, the same, same,
same amount, each of
the grandchildren.
And if many times you'll have something
(36:54):
that's unusual, say you have a member of
the family that might, um, have a
developmental disability or something that
requires additional resources
for that person's life.
You might put more
money aside for that.
Explain that in the
letter of intent.
Maybe somebody
took care of you.
Maybe one of your family members took care
of you for the last two years and you want
(37:16):
to provide them with some additional funds
to thank them for the time and effort that
they spent taking care of
you in those last days.
Because typically a family
member won't ask for money.
Or if they did ask for money, it's usually
better for them if they get the money as
an inheritance, which has less tax
than getting it if they paid you as a,
it's an employee.
So, so you may want to pay someone that
(37:37):
has been taking care of
you for the last few years.
If you don't write it out in a letter of
intent that it's in your handwriting so
everyone can understand that you made this
decision, it was a legitimate decision.
What happens afterward if a family member
finds that one family member got more than
they did, they start looking at,
at, at some sort of a protest,
(37:58):
you know, sometimes they'll
get the lawyers involved.
They'll say, wait a
minute, that's not fair.
I should have this.
So a letter of intent will clearly
document what you, why
you made the decisions
that you made.
The decisions you
make are in the will.
So that's the thing that holds, holds
firm, but why you made the decisions
is very important for the people, uh,
for your family members to understand
(38:19):
what your thinking was and to prevent
them from blaming other people for undue
influence on you.
Because many times they'll think,
well, she was around them all the time.
She must've talked them into
giving us all this money.
But if you say, you know, she worked for,
you know, 2000 hours for the last two
years, I'd like to reward her in my
will rather than just paying her.
That's a lot more understandable if
(38:39):
it's in your handwriting, because, uh,
once again, uh, when a conflict arises,
people kind of assume
the worst of everybody.
And so if you have it in your handwriting
so that everyone knows you made that
decision and there was a reason behind it,
you're going to prevent
conflict after you die.
And going about that process, like there
(39:00):
are families that like, uh, for example,
my mom doesn't
speak English.
How would I like really, um, go about that
process of, um, explain it to her in the
sense that to tell her that she
should try to make it in her vision.
(39:21):
And I would need to go through all this
process and not be like a bias towards me
for completing
all this.
Well, you know, one, if you have a, you
have a brother, you have any sisters,
brothers or sisters, a brother,
just, uh, one older brother.
So you have
a brother.
So this is the best thing when you're
working on us old people, we want you to
(39:41):
be happy and just say, you know,
mom, I want to make sure that,
that after you go, that we still have our
strong relationship and there's not any
controversy over what
happens after you die.
So could you sit down with us or maybe a
third party, sometimes having a neutral
party is the best
way to do it.
And it might cost a little bit to get
an attorney to fill that out for them,
(40:01):
but it's far less than the money you'd
spend trying to challenge anything and
certainly worth it for
your, your relationship.
So if you give her options, like, well,
let's, let's go get this done with
an attorney or with, you know, some
sort of a, uh, uh, a worker that can
help, you know, in your, in your area,
if she doesn't speak English, find a way
(40:22):
for her to get this all written down and
perhaps have a meeting with you and your
brother when you're
both there with her.
That might be helpful or she can,
or sometimes we feel like, well,
you know, this is,
this is my will.
I'm going to write it the
way I want to write it.
But that's, you know, that search would be
her choice, have her write it all down and
then share it with you first so that
everybody knows what's going on.
(40:43):
But I think if you, if you plan it in a
way, if you, if you tell her of what the
ultimate goal is that you and your
brother live in peace after she's gone,
that's an incentive to
a mom to get that done.
And if you frame it like
that, that's a good incentive.
We don't like, you know, we, we don't like
to think that you're, you're, everyone's
(41:03):
like waiting for
us to die, right?
To get our
stuff, right?
That's, we don't
want that to happen.
So if you just talk about your
relationship, how after you die,
we want to make sure that our relationship
is nice and strong and intact and we need
to have as much
clarity as we can.
So let's talk
about this.
I think that would be
really helpful for your mom.
Yeah, I think that sounds
like a really good plan.
(41:24):
Do you have any final
words for our audience?
I think that, you know, the clock
is ticking, you know, death comes
unexpectedly, the clock is ticking, the
time to get your, get ready is right
now, get your stuff ready now, because
you just never know
what's going to happen.
It's the best gift you
can give to your family.
(41:46):
Wow.
Thank you for
coming on podcast.
I hope our audience learned
just as much as I did.
I think it's a topic that isn't very
discussed, especially out there in media.
or even in real life, and I'll have all
your information in the description below.
So if anyone is listening and is
interested in learning more about Dr.
(42:07):
Kimberly and the services you provide,
or also just looking at what type of
information is out there when it comes to
our aging parents to make sure that they
leave happily that we are in a good
position and not going to fight after
their death or
anything like that.
Right.
And you can just go to my website,
drkimberlyharms.com and find whatever you
(42:29):
need on there.
We have some free, we have some free
giveaways for how to have that discussion
with your family.
We have a four-step
guide that's free.
So we've got lots of
resources there for you.
Yeah.
Thank you so much.
You're welcome.
Thank you.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.