Defending Immigrants and the Rule of Law in Times of Lawlessness

Mila Sicorsky is an incoming deportation defense attorney, local community organizer, and my sister. We talk about how our early lives shaped our political imaginations, the tension between legal work and social justice, and what it means to do advocacy inside imperfect systems.  Mila shares stories from law school and beyond—from working with the Innocence Project and the International Refugee Assistance Project to organizing around immigration detention and mutual aid. We reflect on the dissonance between legal ideals and lived realities, the emotional toll of defense work, and the pressures law students face to follow more lucrative paths.  We touch on the need for seeing the Constitution as a living document, especially in the current political moment in the U.S., which is witnessing the rise of authoritarianism and the erosion of democratic norms. Mila speaks to the ongoing need for radical empathy, community infrastructure, and staying human in dehumanizing systems. Support the project: patreon.com/TherapyfortheWorld Music credits: “Limit 70,” licensed by Kevin MacLeod “Meditation” by Jules Massenet, from the Library of Congress Jukebox

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
.0000000001I think a love language for me is, um, using my like, professional knowledge of the law.

(00:09):
Um.
To like, I think, you know, marginalized people, very, very vulnerable.
People in society need people with myriad skills, right? Like need people that are, um, like therapists and, um, lawyers, I think to doctors, um, teachers, educators, and it.

(00:35):
This sort of goes back to why I was drawn to law school.
But um, I do love, like the process, like the day to day of like writing a brief or like the process, like civil procedure.
I find I'm like a nerd and I find that really interesting and to be able to use those skills that I, I find fun to serve like a, um, a humanistic purpose.

(00:59):
Um, and I think that's advocacy. 9 00:01:09,178.683068101 --> 00:01:16,768.683068101 Welcome to Therapy for the World, an interview series with people working across the spectrum of self-care and world care. 10 00:01:17,458.683068101 --> 00:01:29,38.683068101 I'm Dan Sikorsky, a writing teacher and therapist, and the other voice you hear is Mila Sikorsky, an incoming deportation defense attorney, local community organizer, and my sister. 11 00:01:29,878.683068101 --> 00:01:35,218.683068101 We recorded this on June 29th, 2025 at a quarter to seven in the evening. 12 00:01:35,668.683068101 --> 00:01:36,868.683068101 Here's our conversation. 13 00:01:50,850.88191607 --> 00:01:56,970.88191607 One question that I want to start with, it's especially interesting to start with you, is a question that pulls us back in time. 14 00:01:57,300.88191607 --> 00:02:03,780.88191607 And I'd love to know if you can point to something in your, your, I was gonna say our, but your childhood. 15 00:02:04,980.88191607 --> 00:02:06,840.88191607 Your childhood or upbringing. 16 00:02:06,900.88191607 --> 00:02:07,470.88191607 Um, whether. 17 00:02:07,935.88191607 --> 00:02:18,729.38191607 Person, event, experience, anything that helped you become who you are today? Hmm hmm. 18 00:02:18,969.38191607 --> 00:02:19,779.38191607 Let me think. 19 00:02:26,259.38191607 --> 00:02:33,189.38191607 This is, you know, this is the first time I'm like thinking about this right now, but for some reason this is the first thing that came up. 20 00:02:34,419.38191607 --> 00:02:44,439.38191607 so Dan and I, um, had a, um, I would call her like our adoptive grandmother, but she was our nanny growing up. 21 00:02:44,589.38191607 --> 00:02:47,19.38191607 Marta a wonderful, wonderful person. 22 00:02:48,99.38191607 --> 00:02:50,979.38191607 and I guess one day I. 23 00:02:51,579.38191607 --> 00:02:55,509.38191607 Then was like misbehaving or something as a small child. 24 00:02:55,989.38191607 --> 00:03:02,709.38191607 And she said, she was like, well, like do you wanna go to prison? That's where like the bad people are. 25 00:03:03,369.38191607 --> 00:03:12,759.38191607 And I remember like the look of just like extreme fear on your face and on my face and, um, I. 26 00:03:13,719.38191607 --> 00:03:27,519.38191607 I think about that right now because I am going to be a defense attorney, um, doing immigration removal defense, like deportation defense. 27 00:03:27,519.38191607 --> 00:03:29,139.38191607 So, you know, not criminal defense. 28 00:03:29,139.38191607 --> 00:03:36,669.38191607 But, um, I think that there is this like tacit assumption in society that, um. 29 00:03:38,394.38191607 --> 00:03:42,924.38191607 Like people are in, in conditions of confinement in prisons. 30 00:03:42,984.38191607 --> 00:03:47,615.88191607 Um, and there's this tacit assumption that like those connections are. 31 00:03:47,874.38191607 --> 00:03:51,24.38191607 terrible and horrendous to the point where like an 8-year-old. 32 00:03:51,939.38191607 --> 00:03:58,479.38191607 Child's, like recent immigrant to the United States is like, you know, horrified by the idea of being in that. 33 00:03:58,479.38191607 --> 00:04:04,929.38191607 And I, I think that's like important for us to realize like how terrible those things are. 34 00:04:05,319.38191607 --> 00:04:12,369.38191607 Um, and, and not want, uh, other people to, to be confined to those conditions. 35 00:04:13,149.38191607 --> 00:04:19,620.88191607 So it's a very specific but It makes sense that it would come up in this context, you know, talking together. 36 00:04:19,980.88191607 --> 00:04:20,529.38191607 I, mm-hmm. 37 00:04:21,180.88191607 --> 00:04:24,780.88191607 I don't know if you know that I remember this scene as well. 38 00:04:24,780.88191607 --> 00:04:31,80.88191607 I don't know if we've ever talked about it, but I have like a slight, I don't have a, it's, it's very similar, but it's also different in its nuances. 39 00:04:31,80.88191607 --> 00:04:34,530.88191607 Remember, like re recall of that scene? Uh. 40 00:04:35,85.88191607 --> 00:04:37,455.88191607 I remember specifically what I was doing to misbehave. 41 00:04:37,485.88191607 --> 00:04:39,825.88191607 I probably pinched you or something. 42 00:04:40,5.88191607 --> 00:04:46,944.38191607 Um, I, I probably exerted like, you know, child violence upon another child and without Pearl. 43 00:04:47,595.88191607 --> 00:04:47,835.88191607 mm-hmm. 44 00:04:51,75.88191607 --> 00:04:52,125.88191607 That is probably what I did. 45 00:04:52,125.88191607 --> 00:04:53,175.88191607 It was also my birthday. 46 00:04:53,175.88191607 --> 00:04:53,790.88191607 I, and. 47 00:04:54,574.38191607 --> 00:04:55,194.38191607 Oh my God. 48 00:04:55,770.88191607 --> 00:04:58,800.88191607 I remember going to our parents' room that night. 49 00:04:59,95.88191607 --> 00:05:06,240.88191607 It might've been the middle of the night, might've been, and just crying, thinking like, and saying to them, I'm gonna, I'm going to prison. 50 00:05:08,674.38191607 --> 00:05:09,294.38191607 That's it. 51 00:05:11,914.38191607 --> 00:05:12,614.38191607 Oh my God. 52 00:05:13,770.88191607 --> 00:05:15,660.88191607 I said to them, I am a bad person. 53 00:05:15,720.88191607 --> 00:05:17,520.88191607 I'm a bad person, and I'm going to prison. 54 00:05:18,909.38191607 --> 00:05:30,819.38191607 Uh, it's, yeah, it's just, it, it really is crazy how, um, it, you know, in like the, the function of. 55 00:05:32,34.38191607 --> 00:05:33,84.38191607 Prison, right. 56 00:05:33,84.38191607 --> 00:05:38,814.38191607 In a society should be, or ideally it's like what rehabilitation question mark. 57 00:05:39,954.38191607 --> 00:05:45,864.38191607 functionally it's like, it, it just evokes fear because it's not rehabilitative. 58 00:05:45,864.38191607 --> 00:05:55,824.38191607 It's like I can't even, I can't even imagine like being in a courtroom and being sentenced to like three months or something in the conditions of these prisons. 59 00:05:55,824.38191607 --> 00:05:57,84.38191607 It's, it's so frightening. 60 00:05:57,414.38191607 --> 00:06:00,269.38191607 Um, sorry, that's like oddly specific, but. 61 00:06:01,170.88191607 --> 00:06:17,229.38191607 Do you know if it's always been the case that, uh, folks in immigration detention have been placed in these conditions? Were they ever better than they are now? Um, I was actually reading an article about this yesterday, two days ago, um, that the New York Times published. 62 00:06:17,229.38191607 --> 00:06:26,49.38191607 I was like, sort of hardened by, by the fact that they were reporting on this, but, um, I mean, the conditions have never been good, you know, um, but. 63 00:06:26,424.38191607 --> 00:06:33,804.38191607 With the, there's like an exponential rise in so many states in the amount of, um, immigration arrests. 64 00:06:34,164.38191607 --> 00:06:39,864.38191607 Um, it's like some, you know, in California I remember it was like, I think 140%, 160%. 65 00:06:39,864.38191607 --> 00:06:40,674.38191607 Don't quote me on that. 66 00:06:40,674.38191607 --> 00:06:41,784.38191607 Same thing in Colorado. 67 00:06:42,954.38191607 --> 00:06:49,854.38191607 a lot of immigration attorneys were saying that it's been, um, like that the conditions are a lot worse than usual. 68 00:06:49,944.38191607 --> 00:06:55,314.38191607 Um, I know that in Florida, in one of the um. 69 00:06:55,764.38191607 --> 00:07:01,974.38191607 Some of the like, defendants, um, made like an SOS sign. 70 00:07:01,974.38191607 --> 00:07:04,404.38191607 Did you see this? I don't know. 71 00:07:04,404.38191607 --> 00:07:06,774.38191607 There's, there's just like so many terrible things. 72 00:07:06,774.38191607 --> 00:07:08,4.38191607 It's like, I don't even remember. 73 00:07:08,4.38191607 --> 00:07:14,364.38191607 But, yeah, and, and mind you, these, like there is no due process. 74 00:07:14,739.38191607 --> 00:07:15,249.38191607 Like that. 75 00:07:15,249.38191607 --> 00:07:24,219.38191607 That's, I think that's something that should frighten everyone, right? Is like, I don't care if you have no, like empathy for the plight of the immigrant. 76 00:07:24,219.38191607 --> 00:07:29,889.38191607 We were talking about this offline, but like fact The fact that there process should frighten anyone. 77 00:07:30,99.38191607 --> 00:07:37,29.38191607 Right? That is like, goes back to like ancient England, the Magna Carta. 78 00:07:37,29.38191607 --> 00:07:40,749.38191607 Like that is, it's like sort of a fundamental, um. 79 00:07:41,514.38191607 --> 00:07:44,214.38191607 Principle in, in any, in any democracy. 80 00:07:44,214.38191607 --> 00:07:49,614.38191607 I don't even, I don't even know if in non democracies, you know, um, anyways. 81 00:07:51,475.88191607 --> 00:07:55,435.88191607 This is not the direction I want n necessarily intended for us to go. 82 00:07:55,435.88191607 --> 00:08:13,885.88191607 But I, you know, we were talking, we were talking about childhood and um, I don't know if you identify with the word radical, but I, I think you're someone who in is radical in the sense of definitely not buying much of the mainstream discussion around much, you know, politically. 83 00:08:14,610.88191607 --> 00:08:18,780.88191607 I, I know that we both don't necessarily like love the Democratic Party. 84 00:08:18,780.88191607 --> 00:08:21,540.88191607 Most many people don't, especially after the last election. 85 00:08:22,650.88191607 --> 00:08:33,900.88191607 But, and I also am noticing the fact that neither of us is, I is pretty mainstream politically and has like taken to this, the fringes that fortunately are like gaining some power. 86 00:08:33,900.88191607 --> 00:08:37,20.88191607 You know, New York City is the, the like latest example of that. 87 00:08:37,425.88191607 --> 00:08:42,345.88191607 Um, a, a Democratic socialist, which is a party that you have been involved with. 88 00:08:42,675.88191607 --> 00:09:01,275.88191607 Do you know, can you know, it's, it's kinda like the same repeat question from earlier on, but what do you think in your, our childhoods radicalized you? Why do you think we both came out this way? 'cause it was not because we had parents who necessarily, um, you know, ascribe to these, to these beliefs or these belief systems. 89 00:09:01,365.88191607 --> 00:09:09,489.38191607 What do you think happened to us? You know what? I don't know. 90 00:09:09,489.38191607 --> 00:09:13,119.38191607 What, what do you think? I'll turn this question on you while I, while I think of an answer. 91 00:09:14,280.88191607 --> 00:09:25,140.88191607 So I definitely think that even if, uh, neither of our parents was, um, like radical, I'll keep using other, there's probably a better word, could we can think about. 92 00:09:25,440.88191607 --> 00:09:26,250.88191607 Um, but you know. 93 00:09:26,670.88191607 --> 00:09:30,150.88191607 Far, far left or, or far right as a response. 94 00:09:30,150.88191607 --> 00:09:32,460.88191607 We could have come out far left as a response to the far right. 95 00:09:32,460.88191607 --> 00:09:35,820.88191607 But even if none, neither of them was like very much on the fringes. 96 00:09:35,820.88191607 --> 00:09:41,100.88191607 I think there, there were principles of justice that operated implicitly in, in their worldviews. 97 00:09:41,640.88191607 --> 00:09:50,550.88191607 Um, what, what am I thinking about with that? Uh, I guess I'm thinking of, of mothers? Can I tell you what I am thinking of Yes. 98 00:09:50,604.38191607 --> 00:09:52,440.88191607 Principles of Justice, Yes. 99 00:09:53,34.38191607 --> 00:10:00,804.38191607 so Dan and I, every single Friday mandatory field trip was to Costco whole scale, um, wholesale whole scale. 100 00:10:01,704.38191607 --> 00:10:07,284.38191607 every Friday afternoon, and I think maybe once a month we would return with like. 101 00:10:08,79.38191607 --> 00:10:11,709.38191607 Um, we would get like five gallons of milk every single time we would go. 102 00:10:12,99.38191607 --> 00:10:22,689.38191607 Um, and our late father would, if he like found that one of the milks was expired, would like bring back the milk, which probably cost like, what, $2. 103 00:10:22,779.38191607 --> 00:10:27,480.88191607 And like we would stand in line at the return place It was a long line. 104 00:10:27,549.38191607 --> 00:10:29,199.38191607 sure it was a long line. 105 00:10:29,229.38191607 --> 00:10:31,599.38191607 And like on a Friday afternoon, everyone's tired. 106 00:10:31,599.38191607 --> 00:10:33,549.38191607 But we would make sure to get that return. 107 00:10:33,609.38191607 --> 00:10:36,369.38191607 You know, Yeah, of when I think of justice. 108 00:10:36,600.88191607 --> 00:10:37,50.88191607 great. 109 00:10:37,110.88191607 --> 00:10:38,580.88191607 It's the principle of the matter. 110 00:10:38,790.88191607 --> 00:10:41,940.88191607 I remember also Costco, one of the foundational moments in my life. 111 00:10:42,30.88191607 --> 00:10:53,310.88191607 You were not there on this trip, but we, um, you know, checked out with a grocery cart full of, full of brimming with like just, you know, produce and, and goods and toilet paper and everything, and. 112 00:10:54,15.88191607 --> 00:11:01,995.88191607 When we, when we, when we got, we were like walking out of the, of the, of Costco, I noticed because I was always tasked with reading the receipt. 113 00:11:02,55.88191607 --> 00:11:04,425.88191607 That's always something I've been, I was always tasked with that. 114 00:11:04,725.88191607 --> 00:11:10,95.88191607 Um, and I remember noticing that carrot, the carrots had been charged twice and we only had one bag of carrots. 115 00:11:10,644.38191607 --> 00:11:11,304.38191607 God forbid. 116 00:11:11,865.88191607 --> 00:11:13,185.88191607 Bobby didn't even look at me. 117 00:11:13,485.88191607 --> 00:11:22,5.88191607 He just grabbed, we grabbed the receipt, marched back, and we never went into that one particular cashier's line ever again. 118 00:11:22,524.38191607 --> 00:11:23,484.38191607 That's so funny. 119 00:11:23,694.38191607 --> 00:11:25,284.38191607 It was like a personal wrong. 120 00:11:25,344.38191607 --> 00:11:26,340.88191607 It Yes. 121 00:11:26,514.38191607 --> 00:11:27,444.38191607 am wrong. 122 00:11:27,504.38191607 --> 00:11:28,674.38191607 This person hates me. 123 00:11:29,280.88191607 --> 00:11:29,994.38191607 I think that funny. 124 00:11:30,90.88191607 --> 00:11:31,380.88191607 that's a good word to use for it. 125 00:11:31,380.88191607 --> 00:11:33,750.88191607 I think that there was a sense of like, when something is wrong. 126 00:11:34,20.88191607 --> 00:11:36,129.38191607 When something is wrong, Yeah. 127 00:11:36,129.38191607 --> 00:11:37,449.38191607 When you feel wronged. 128 00:11:38,319.38191607 --> 00:11:39,819.38191607 Yeah, a hundred percent. 129 00:11:40,209.38191607 --> 00:11:41,499.38191607 I, I agree with that. 130 00:11:41,679.38191607 --> 00:11:50,5.88191607 Um, also think, like, I don't know if this is so specific to I. 131 00:11:50,679.38191607 --> 00:11:55,209.38191607 but, um, I actually, I, I think, I think so. 132 00:11:55,209.38191607 --> 00:12:01,569.38191607 Like there's this, um, appreciation for congruence, like moral congruence. 133 00:12:02,814.38191607 --> 00:12:08,124.38191607 In, in, I think our, our father was like this, or my memory of him. 134 00:12:08,214.38191607 --> 00:12:26,484.38191607 Um, and I, I feel that way that I try to be good friend, a good partner, um, a good like person in society, I guess, like, like sort of espousing the same values of like. 135 00:12:27,804.38191607 --> 00:12:32,334.38191607 Kindness, warmth, like sincerity in every facet of my life. 136 00:12:32,364.38191607 --> 00:12:37,884.38191607 And I think I, I find it hard to like espouse those values in your personal life. 137 00:12:37,884.38191607 --> 00:12:45,594.38191607 But then, you know, like in your life or in your career, how just be like devoid of those values. 138 00:12:45,954.38191607 --> 00:12:46,284.38191607 Um. 139 00:12:47,784.38191607 --> 00:12:53,484.38191607 You know, because I think everyone would agree, like, yeah, in your personal life you should probably be kind, you should probably be empathetic. 140 00:12:53,484.38191607 --> 00:12:57,990.88191607 Like why not apply those things on principle elsewhere, right? Yes. 141 00:12:59,250.88191607 --> 00:13:04,260.88191607 We didn't have very working parents like, like other people might have. 142 00:13:04,320.88191607 --> 00:13:09,959.38191607 You know, Bobby retired when we were, when I was four and you were Mm-hmm. 143 00:13:10,50.88191607 --> 00:13:13,860.88191607 three and, and mommy worked pretty part-time. 144 00:13:14,159.38191607 --> 00:13:14,579.38191607 Mm-hmm. 145 00:13:16,860.88191607 --> 00:13:27,180.88191607 I think I am thinking about this because you're, you're naming that like if whatever moral system is at work was at work in their work life. 146 00:13:28,995.88191607 --> 00:13:34,545.88191607 Uh, upbringing or raising of us, you know, and, but we didn't get to see them at work too much. 147 00:13:35,124.38191607 --> 00:13:35,544.38191607 Mm-hmm. 148 00:13:38,79.38191607 --> 00:13:38,619.38191607 Yeah. 149 00:13:39,594.38191607 --> 00:14:01,824.38191607 But I mean, our, our mom, mommy, Ola, she's probably listening to this, um, in, I, I think of her as someone who in, in her work, in her, you know, career as a musical therapist, as a, um, musical director in, in a preschool. 150 00:14:01,824.38191607 --> 00:14:02,784.38191607 She, um. 151 00:14:03,729.38191607 --> 00:14:11,289.38191607 She was like very playful, very, I think maternal things that she definitely was slash is with with us right now. 152 00:14:12,9.38191607 --> 00:14:14,49.38191607 Um, and I think that's very congruent too. 153 00:14:14,445.88191607 --> 00:14:14,865.88191607 Yeah. 154 00:14:15,285.88191607 --> 00:14:20,895.88191607 Yeah, there was a lot of love, a lot of like understanding of, of that being a, a direction to take, to take one's work. 155 00:14:21,285.88191607 --> 00:14:25,815.88191607 Um, I don't know, maybe we'll keep figuring it out with, with time, you know, what, what radicalized us. 156 00:14:25,875.88191607 --> 00:14:28,575.88191607 Um, but I think I like these, these initial ideas. 157 00:14:29,754.38191607 --> 00:14:31,734.38191607 I'm past introspection personally. 158 00:14:31,734.38191607 --> 00:14:33,504.38191607 But respect it for you. 159 00:14:33,780.88191607 --> 00:14:35,310.88191607 What do you mean in your past introspection. 160 00:14:35,724.38191607 --> 00:14:36,654.38191607 No, I'm kidding. 161 00:14:36,654.38191607 --> 00:14:37,134.38191607 I'm kidding. 162 00:14:37,344.38191607 --> 00:14:37,700.88191607 I'm Oh. 163 00:14:37,704.38191607 --> 00:14:38,844.38191607 past introspection. 164 00:14:39,180.88191607 --> 00:14:39,570.88191607 Okay. 165 00:14:39,720.88191607 --> 00:14:50,634.38191607 You have that, um, serious joking face that I'm often told I have too, where people like, what were you, were you joking? Or were you, do you get that often? Um, yes. 166 00:14:50,634.38191607 --> 00:14:51,984.38191607 Now that I think about it, I do. 167 00:14:54,240.88191607 --> 00:15:06,0.88191607 Uh, would love to talk a little bit about, you know, taking a couple steps and years back about your choice of profession and your choice of turning towards. 168 00:15:08,55.88191607 --> 00:15:17,300.88191607 When did that become clear to you, and has the reasoning stayed the same since you decided, and now that you are, you know, really almost in the thick of it. 169 00:15:18,399.38191607 --> 00:15:22,359.38191607 Yeah, I feel like if anything I enjoy. 170 00:15:23,124.38191607 --> 00:15:25,584.38191607 The, the day to day and the practice of it. 171 00:15:25,584.38191607 --> 00:15:33,924.38191607 Not that I'm practicing law for the record, but like law school, um, more than I would've initially have thought. 172 00:15:34,134.38191607 --> 00:15:47,274.38191607 Um, I think it, the way that I, my friend and I describe it is I, I feel like I have, um, like a humanities engineer brain, like I really like when things are, um. 173 00:15:48,69.38191607 --> 00:15:50,445.88191607 There's like clarity Clarity instruction. 174 00:15:51,129.38191607 --> 00:15:55,779.38191607 applied, um, but not with numbers or stem or anything. 175 00:15:55,779.38191607 --> 00:15:58,209.38191607 And I feel like law school is very much that. 176 00:15:58,209.38191607 --> 00:16:02,949.38191607 So, so I like legal practice in that sense. 177 00:16:02,949.38191607 --> 00:16:12,399.38191607 And as I think has become clear in the last 14 minutes, I feel very passionately about, um, issues of, you know. 178 00:16:13,899.38191607 --> 00:16:16,629.38191607 Just humanity, like basic humanity. 179 00:16:16,629.38191607 --> 00:16:27,30.88191607 And, um, enjoy enjoy being to of apply that like, like the legal structure, the, the, The legal process. 180 00:16:27,819.38191607 --> 00:16:28,719.38191607 those issues. 181 00:16:28,809.38191607 --> 00:16:31,695.88191607 Um, and and also I think like. 182 00:16:33,759.38191607 --> 00:16:36,399.38191607 it's, it's so important to have, um. 183 00:16:37,299.38191607 --> 00:16:50,199.3819161 Like a, a very basic tenant, I think of a functioning democracy and of like a healthy society is having the law protect those that, that are most vulnerable. 184 00:16:50,619.3819161 --> 00:17:03,184.3819161 Um, 'cause if it can't protect those that are most vulnerable, like it shares hell, it can't protect anyone else, you know? Um, and so, so that's something that I feel very passionately about too. 185 00:17:04,800.8819161 --> 00:17:08,625.8819161 Do you think that the lies a creative pursuit? I. 186 00:17:09,474.3819161 --> 00:17:10,554.3819161 Hmm. 187 00:17:12,654.3819161 --> 00:17:14,394.3819161 I think so. 188 00:17:14,394.3819161 --> 00:17:27,774.3819161 Although, you know, um, stereotypically it's, it's not considered that way, but I think it's creative in the sense that, you know, you have your black letter law, um, meaning like you're sort of like. 189 00:17:28,410.8819161 --> 00:17:29,385.8819161 Like, just think of like. 190 00:17:29,454.3819161 --> 00:17:31,644.3819161 very basic, like criminal statute. 191 00:17:31,854.3819161 --> 00:17:39,234.3819161 Um, or, or even like the, like the due process clause, right? Of the 14th Amendment. 192 00:17:39,234.3819161 --> 00:17:43,794.3819161 Like no person shall be deprived of life, liberty, uh, wow. 193 00:17:43,794.3819161 --> 00:17:46,374.3819161 I should know this by heart without due process of law. 194 00:17:46,794.3819161 --> 00:17:47,394.3819161 Um. 195 00:17:47,754.3819161 --> 00:17:48,894.3819161 Or property, I think it is. 196 00:17:48,954.3819161 --> 00:18:09,834.3819161 And, and the ways, like the very creative ways that people have used that to apply, like, have applied that black letter law, which is so ancient to modern things, to, um, like, you know, protecting gay marriage to, um, like protecting the rights of, um, like. 197 00:18:11,304.3819161 --> 00:18:26,664.3819161 What fathers able to see their children, um, protecting, uh, like protecting green card holders, um, from being deported without like a hearing, you know? Um, and I think that's really creative and, and definitely underappreciated. 198 00:18:27,320.8819161 --> 00:18:35,205.8819161 Because the original documents that don't give us much to work with when it comes to the world that we live in now, I think there's a lot of extrapolation that has to happen. 199 00:18:36,24.3819161 --> 00:18:37,14.3819161 Right, right. 200 00:18:37,14.3819161 --> 00:18:42,444.3819161 I think like originalism, which is, um, the school of thought that, uh. 201 00:18:42,909.3819161 --> 00:18:55,959.3819161 A lot of our current Supreme Court as scribes to LOL, uh, that sort of like, it means that you should look at like the literal text of the Constitution and interpreting it. 202 00:18:55,959.3819161 --> 00:19:00,699.3819161 And I feel like that is so myopic and also just dishonest, right? Because. 203 00:19:02,79.3819161 --> 00:19:06,399.3819161 This country has changed dramatically since the Constitution was written. 204 00:19:06,399.3819161 --> 00:19:19,600.8819161 Like I wouldn't, I probably wouldn't Probably, able to be here, you know, know, much much less like voting be like a law student, you know? Um, so yeah, it's is there. 205 00:19:19,779.3819161 --> 00:19:22,719.3819161 uncreative way of viewing the law. 206 00:19:22,719.3819161 --> 00:19:23,619.3819161 Originalism. 207 00:19:24,615.8819161 --> 00:19:24,975.8819161 Got it. 208 00:19:27,45.8819161 --> 00:19:30,75.8819161 Is there a school of thought or any movement to. 209 00:19:32,40.8819161 --> 00:19:42,789.3819161 Is it, I, I don't know if I'm gonna be out loud for saying this, but like, replace the Constitution to, to, to find another document to be the one that we are proud to be an American. 210 00:19:44,310.8819161 --> 00:19:44,970.8819161 an American. 211 00:19:45,129.3819161 --> 00:19:46,59.3819161 after us. 212 00:19:48,819.3819161 --> 00:19:50,769.3819161 Um, sorry, I cut you off. 213 00:19:50,769.3819161 --> 00:19:54,609.3819161 Is there, is there like a move like to No, no. 214 00:19:54,609.3819161 --> 00:20:06,99.3819161 It's, it's more like the, see that's what, um, I was talking about this with, um, our mom the other day is I was saying like anyone that is in law school. 215 00:20:06,909.3819161 --> 00:20:16,89.3819161 Or anyone that like ascribe, you know, ascribes to like the law as like a way to govern, um, would be like very aghast. 216 00:20:16,89.3819161 --> 00:20:21,219.3819161 I think with, with what's going on with like the lawlessness of this administration, I. 217 00:20:22,809.3819161 --> 00:20:31,790.8819161 no matter what sort of like interpretation you ascribe to of the laws of the constitution, like the basis is the To the law. 218 00:20:31,960.8819161 --> 00:20:32,310.8819161 Right. 219 00:20:32,649.3819161 --> 00:20:35,865.8819161 And And you really have to get creative, legal legal gymnastics. 220 00:20:35,865.8819161 --> 00:20:43,359.3819161 That's another creativity is like legal gymnastics been doing to to like get away with the the things that, that have been happening. 221 00:20:43,389.3819161 --> 00:20:46,305.8819161 Um, but yeah, yeah. 222 00:20:46,480.8819161 --> 00:20:46,600.8819161 I. 223 00:20:47,79.3819161 --> 00:20:48,369.3819161 so I don't, I don't. 224 00:20:49,569.3819161 --> 00:20:57,515.8819161 To my knowledge, there is not a movement to replace any of these legal texts, but definitely to see it as a living document Document. 225 00:20:57,519.3819161 --> 00:21:00,69.3819161 than something that's stuck in like 1789. 226 00:21:00,690.8819161 --> 00:21:01,290.8819161 That's great. 227 00:21:01,380.8819161 --> 00:21:03,840.8819161 I like that Other term living document. 228 00:21:04,20.8819161 --> 00:21:09,150.8819161 It's in the same way that we might, you know, apply old texts, old religious text to modernity. 229 00:21:09,150.8819161 --> 00:21:12,570.8819161 They, they are used that way through interpretive means. 230 00:21:13,749.3819161 --> 00:21:14,139.3819161 Right. 231 00:21:14,139.3819161 --> 00:21:14,919.3819161 Exactly. 232 00:21:14,949.3819161 --> 00:21:15,729.3819161 Exactly. 233 00:21:16,659.3819161 --> 00:21:17,499.3819161 I fully agree. 234 00:21:17,940.8819161 --> 00:21:20,340.8819161 So we talked about the law a little bit. 235 00:21:21,60.8819161 --> 00:21:27,894.3819161 What specifically drew you over the course of your, uh, studies to immigration law? Hmm. 236 00:21:28,704.3819161 --> 00:21:32,725.8819161 been more of a recent, Area of I. 237 00:21:33,114.3819161 --> 00:21:45,714.3819161 that, that drew me in this past year because I did a fellowship with, um, the International Refugee Assistance Project ira, which is an excellent organization that your listeners should look into. 238 00:21:46,344.3819161 --> 00:21:58,215.8819161 Um, but also I, was I was in a clinic um, that that and immigration law, there's, there's, you know, The immigration law is law is a civil law meaning, meeting. 239 00:21:58,275.8819161 --> 00:22:02,505.8819161 Um, that's why it, it's like a interesting area of the law. 240 00:22:02,934.3819161 --> 00:22:06,84.3819161 to 2002, it was purely civil. 241 00:22:06,834.3819161 --> 00:22:25,110.8819161 But, um, with the rise of immigration detention, it has so So many elements to it where like if you were to ask on the student, Who like a lay person and be like, Hey, do you do you think like that is in immigration detention, is it's not like person being punished. 242 00:22:25,929.3819161 --> 00:22:27,420.8819161 The Answer probably yes. 243 00:22:27,420.8819161 --> 00:22:31,950.8819161 Right? They being detained and even still in the the world of the law. 244 00:22:31,950.8819161 --> 00:22:33,969.3819161 Of of the law that is like civil law. 245 00:22:34,629.3819161 --> 00:22:46,449.3819161 Um, and and so those people, like the people that are detention aren't, um, entitled to constitutional protection, except defendants are. 246 00:22:46,695.8819161 --> 00:22:50,385.8819161 And And I I felt very passionately about work, work. 247 00:22:50,409.3819161 --> 00:23:06,144.3819161 um, for a really long up, Um, I I think it was, My starting my my first of semester school, like among my first weeks until the very end, I was really involved in, um, the Innocence Project that we had in my law school. 248 00:23:06,500.8819161 --> 00:23:14,760.8819161 and was it was the first second a prison, um, and actually actually spoke with People that that were like in prison. 249 00:23:15,399.3819161 --> 00:23:15,999.3819161 life. 250 00:23:16,419.3819161 --> 00:23:32,625.8819161 Um, and And I think there's one thing, um, that that is thinking like the abstract about how terrible a prison is is to make And the other thing is actually visiting there there and like speaking to people that are in in those conditions. 251 00:23:32,655.8819161 --> 00:23:34,95.8819161 That was really radicalizing. 252 00:23:34,989.3819161 --> 00:23:36,939.3819161 Um, and. 253 00:23:37,590.8819161 --> 00:23:38,484.3819161 And It. 254 00:23:38,484.3819161 --> 00:23:49,14.3819161 I, I I, I remember one by a wanted that I really respect is I, someone asked her like, why are you, And she she said, because I know that person I. 255 00:23:49,945.8819161 --> 00:23:56,244.3819161 IMP is a a son or a dog, someone else, she's and she's like, as a mother, I not cannot allow that to happen. 256 00:23:56,244.3819161 --> 00:23:57,540.8819161 And that was so so beautiful. 257 00:23:57,594.3819161 --> 00:24:01,650.8819161 right? Um, because if you any of these visit any facility. 258 00:24:01,764.3819161 --> 00:24:07,530.8819161 you know, this includes Consideration detection facilities and also in prison. 259 00:24:07,584.3819161 --> 00:24:09,564.3819161 like criminal prisons, criminal jails. 260 00:24:09,624.3819161 --> 00:24:19,104.3819161 Um, I, I I think it, it really Does inspire a lot of compassion and empathy. 261 00:24:19,104.3819161 --> 00:24:25,884.3819161 What do you think about that? That like all these people are sisters, friends, daughters, sons, um. 262 00:24:28,689.3819161 --> 00:24:35,0.8819161 And yeah, Yeah, so, so I knew that I wanted to either, criminal defense and I got a job. 263 00:24:35,19.3819161 --> 00:24:37,449.3819161 the public defender office here in Colorado. 264 00:24:38,109.3819161 --> 00:24:42,680.8819161 then I I also got offer for a scholarship removal defense. 265 00:24:42,789.3819161 --> 00:24:44,109.3819161 um, here in Colorado. 266 00:24:44,139.3819161 --> 00:24:52,770.8819161 And I I decided on because, um, you know, current situation, really loved itself, like we need a a lot of. 267 00:24:53,379.3819161 --> 00:24:55,569.3819161 uh, deportation defense right now. 268 00:24:55,569.3819161 --> 00:24:56,529.3819161 And, um. 269 00:24:57,564.3819161 --> 00:25:00,654.3819161 Yeah, I, I am excited. 270 00:25:00,654.3819161 --> 00:25:01,224.3819161 I'm excited. 271 00:25:01,224.3819161 --> 00:25:02,784.3819161 Also terrified for it. 272 00:25:05,760.8819161 --> 00:25:16,200.8819161 There was some concern in our family conversations when you were choosing between those two roles between, you know, criminal defense and, and deportation defense. 273 00:25:16,290.8819161 --> 00:25:19,200.8819161 And the concern was that it would be a very taxing role. 274 00:25:20,145.8819161 --> 00:25:32,895.8819161 For you, you know, like in, in general that I think anyone who has a family member who's going into work that's very grueling and, and, and difficult morally and emotionally is concerned for them when they go into that. 275 00:25:33,195.8819161 --> 00:25:35,355.8819161 Is that a concern for you right now? I. 276 00:25:37,570.8819161 --> 00:25:46,515.8819161 Yeah, I mean, I'm glad you brought this up because, um, I think for a really long time whenever people would say things along the lines of like. 277 00:25:47,475.8819161 --> 00:25:52,545.8819161 You can't pour from an empty cup and like you have to take care of yourself before you take care of others. 278 00:25:52,630.8819161 --> 00:25:53,655.8819161 I, I always listen to that. 279 00:25:53,655.8819161 --> 00:25:54,825.8819161 I was like, okay, stop. 280 00:25:54,825.8819161 --> 00:25:58,785.8819161 Like you, you know, this doesn't apply to me. 281 00:25:58,845.8819161 --> 00:26:04,215.8819161 Um, I always thought it was like a very privileged, quote unquote thing to say. 282 00:26:04,215.8819161 --> 00:26:09,645.8819161 And then earlier this year I had a lot of, um, health challenges. 283 00:26:09,705.8819161 --> 00:26:15,45.8819161 Um, January was a really difficult month for me, um, and. 284 00:26:15,805.8819161 --> 00:26:20,5.8819161 I think the root cause of it was like, not at all making time for myself. 285 00:26:20,5.8819161 --> 00:26:33,715.8819161 I was pouring from like a, not even an empty cup, but like the, the glass wasn't even there, you know? And, um, I think that really taught me that you, you do have to take care of yourself. 286 00:26:33,775.8819161 --> 00:26:39,295.8819161 You, if you are gonna be in these positions, you know, of, of trying to advocate for other people. 287 00:26:39,295.8819161 --> 00:26:42,385.8819161 Because I was at such a low point that I couldn't. 288 00:26:43,60.8819161 --> 00:26:47,260.8819161 I couldn't be there for, you know, not even just like my clinic clients. 289 00:26:47,260.8819161 --> 00:26:51,280.8819161 I, I really tried to, but um, also like as a friend, as a partner. 290 00:26:51,460.8819161 --> 00:26:58,870.8819161 Um, so yeah, I, I definitely think about that a lot and I'm trying to be proactive about that. 291 00:27:00,675.8819161 --> 00:27:14,820.8819161 okay, what is, uh, the word use the word advocacy or to advocate? Um, I, I'm, I don't know if you find it as interesting a word as I do considering that, in Spanish lawyer is abogado. 292 00:27:15,390.8819161 --> 00:27:22,290.8819161 Uh, and I'm gonna just, you know, take on, take an ol entomological guess right now and say that's sort of related to advocate. 293 00:27:22,770.8819161 --> 00:27:32,400.8819161 Um, even if, even if it's not, even if it's not, but is what do you understand by advocate or advocate or advocacy? I. 294 00:27:33,550.8819161 --> 00:27:34,180.8819161 Hmm. 295 00:27:35,410.8819161 --> 00:27:46,600.8819161 I think it's using, um, like the privileges that we have to speak up for other people that aren't afforded those privileges. 296 00:27:47,665.8819161 --> 00:28:00,775.8819161 Um, I mean a very, like, literal example of this is people in prison that quite literally cannot, um, a very interesting area of the law, if anyone wants to do a Wikipedia deep dive is the first amendment rights of prisoners. 297 00:28:01,495.8819161 --> 00:28:04,855.8819161 Um, and yeah, quite literally, like a lot of. 298 00:28:05,485.8819161 --> 00:28:11,5.8819161 Uh, people in prison cannot, um, speak up for themselves, can't advocate for themselves. 299 00:28:11,35.8819161 --> 00:28:21,385.8819161 You know, not even, not even just with their views about the world, about their conditions, but even like in court, you know, um, people don't know their rights because they weren't taught their rights. 300 00:28:21,415.8819161 --> 00:28:32,815.8819161 And, um, I think a love language for me is, um, using my like, professional knowledge of the law. 301 00:28:33,385.8819161 --> 00:28:33,925.8819161 Um. 302 00:28:35,185.8819161 --> 00:28:42,535.8819161 To like, I think, you know, marginalized people, very, very vulnerable. 303 00:28:42,535.8819161 --> 00:28:59,305.8819161 People in society need people with myriad skills, right? Like need people that are, um, like therapists and, um, lawyers, I think to doctors, um, teachers, educators, and it. 304 00:28:59,635.8819161 --> 00:29:03,25.8819161 This sort of goes back to why I was drawn to law school. 305 00:29:03,25.8819161 --> 00:29:12,85.8819161 But um, I do love, like the process, like the day to day of like writing a brief or like the process, like civil procedure. 306 00:29:12,85.8819161 --> 00:29:23,125.8819161 I find I'm like a nerd and I find that really interesting and to be able to use those skills that I, I find fun to serve like a, um, a humanistic purpose. 307 00:29:23,605.8819161 --> 00:29:25,210.8819161 Um, and I think that's advocacy. 308 00:29:30,125.8819161 --> 00:29:32,10.8819161 Are there specific cases that you. 309 00:29:33,300.8819161 --> 00:29:35,940.8819161 close and dear of folks that you've worked with. 310 00:29:41,650.8819161 --> 00:29:48,310.8819161 I think a lot about the first time that I went to, um, a prison. 311 00:29:48,820.8819161 --> 00:29:49,360.8819161 Um. 312 00:29:50,365.8819161 --> 00:29:54,85.8819161 Which was my, like one of the first weeks of law school for me. 313 00:29:54,85.8819161 --> 00:30:03,685.8819161 And when I was working for the Innocence Project, which I alluded to before, and it's like a three hour drive to the Sterling Correctional Facility from Boulder. 314 00:30:04,345.8819161 --> 00:30:07,15.8819161 And on the way there I was pretty nervous. 315 00:30:07,45.8819161 --> 00:30:16,765.8819161 'cause you know, one thing is like talking with my friends or my colleagues and about like collective liberation and the rights of defendants. 316 00:30:16,765.8819161 --> 00:30:18,655.8819161 And also I, I had this. 317 00:30:19,510.8819161 --> 00:30:29,200.8819161 Like visceral anxiety about, you know, being in a room with someone who is convicted of like first degree murder. 318 00:30:29,410.8819161 --> 00:30:42,610.8819161 Um, and when we met our client, um, it was the most like humanizing like lovely conversation. 319 00:30:42,820.8819161 --> 00:30:43,210.8819161 Um. 320 00:30:45,595.8819161 --> 00:31:04,840.8819161 Given the fact that this person had been in prison for like over three decades, like, like, and also like the claim of innocence, right? With like a very credible claim of innocence and, um, the fact that someone in those conditions is able to retain their humanity. 321 00:31:05,65.8819161 --> 00:31:09,685.8819161 And not only that, but just like be such a lovely person, such a lovely host. 322 00:31:10,885.8819161 --> 00:31:11,305.8819161 Um. 323 00:31:13,435.8819161 --> 00:31:16,315.8819161 I was very, I was very, very moved by that. 324 00:31:16,495.8819161 --> 00:31:31,945.8819161 Um, and yeah, I, I couldn't, I can't imagine myself being in, in that situation where like, you are just utterly voiceless, you know, like just at the whims of the system that like wants to keep you in. 325 00:31:33,715.8819161 --> 00:31:39,910.8819161 Were you able to express that awe and wonder at his um, disposition? Yeah, I did. 326 00:31:39,910.8819161 --> 00:31:41,170.8819161 I sent him a letter. 327 00:31:41,230.8819161 --> 00:31:45,700.8819161 He sent me a letter, um, and I got him a few books. 328 00:31:45,790.8819161 --> 00:31:53,680.8819161 Um, that's maybe the only good thing about Amazon is they offer, uh, shipments to some prisons. 329 00:31:53,680.8819161 --> 00:31:56,920.8819161 So I, I don't know the details of that exactly, but they do. 330 00:31:57,700.8819161 --> 00:31:58,620.8819161 So Oh, Amazon. 331 00:31:58,620.8819161 --> 00:31:58,860.8819161 Yeah. 332 00:31:59,140.8819161 --> 00:32:03,880.8819161 yeah, shout out Social Justice Institution, Amazon. 333 00:32:05,850.8819161 --> 00:32:10,510.8819161 what books did you send? Uh, I honestly don't remember. 334 00:32:10,510.8819161 --> 00:32:16,485.8819161 It was, it was a self-help book, um, like the one that I remember, but I'm forgetting. 335 00:32:17,190.8819161 --> 00:32:17,550.8819161 That's okay. 336 00:32:17,610.8819161 --> 00:32:17,880.8819161 Yeah. 337 00:32:18,275.8819161 --> 00:32:18,565.8819161 Yeah. 338 00:32:19,710.8819161 --> 00:32:21,210.8819161 We've been talking around this. 339 00:32:21,390.8819161 --> 00:32:23,970.8819161 Wanted just to dig into it more explicitly. 340 00:32:24,810.8819161 --> 00:32:34,745.8819161 You seem to hold a very special, and you seem to hold the, the law very dear when it's working well and when it's a, when it's an institution that. 341 00:32:34,890.8819161 --> 00:32:43,950.8819161 It to order and to give logic to and to care for people in society. 342 00:32:45,60.8819161 --> 00:32:53,100.8819161 And at the same time, it's not been that for a while in the states, especially now. 343 00:32:54,60.8819161 --> 00:33:02,880.8819161 How do you feel about working in a system that is so contrary often to the. 344 00:33:03,675.8819161 --> 00:33:04,845.8819161 Esteem to which you hold, aah. 345 00:33:06,400.8819161 --> 00:33:09,640.8819161 Yeah, I feel anxious about it, honestly. 346 00:33:09,880.8819161 --> 00:33:22,750.8819161 Um, I've been holding a lot of anxiety these days, um, because like this, this whole thing by this whole thing, I mean like this democracy can't work if. 347 00:33:23,755.8819161 --> 00:33:26,965.8819161 Like the very people in power don't respect the democracy. 348 00:33:27,85.8819161 --> 00:33:27,595.8819161 Right. 349 00:33:27,715.8819161 --> 00:33:36,565.8819161 Um, there's this quote that my friend says a lot, I don't think it's an original quote, but he says, liberal democracy never existed, but you'll miss it when it's gone. 350 00:33:37,315.8819161 --> 00:33:38,455.8819161 I think that's so good. 351 00:33:38,455.8819161 --> 00:33:41,5.8819161 And that's sort of what I'm feeling right now. 352 00:33:41,815.8819161 --> 00:33:44,395.8819161 Um, so yeah, I'm, I'm feeling anxious. 353 00:33:44,395.8819161 --> 00:33:49,170.8819161 How are you feeling from afar? Yeah, so I am, I am afar. 354 00:33:49,590.8819161 --> 00:33:56,70.8819161 I like it's not been this bad in a while. 355 00:33:56,790.8819161 --> 00:34:02,100.8819161 the same time, I continue to have this, this, um, confirmation bias. 356 00:34:02,715.8819161 --> 00:34:06,555.8819161 What I wanted to confirm is that survive. 357 00:34:07,335.8819161 --> 00:34:17,385.8819161 And so I'm more attending to news about things being struck down or limits being placed. 358 00:34:17,625.8819161 --> 00:34:21,395.8819161 And I think that we've definitely have examples of both, right? Of like, uh, we were talking Yeah. 359 00:34:21,975.8819161 --> 00:34:31,875.8819161 um, the Supreme Court case recently regarding injunctions, and that's definitely one that falls in the category of things are going to shit. 360 00:34:32,385.8819161 --> 00:34:32,805.8819161 Mm-hmm. 361 00:34:32,970.8819161 --> 00:34:38,670.8819161 But there's also, there's also much to point to that suggests that these systems will hold. 362 00:34:39,480.8819161 --> 00:34:45,330.8819161 At the same time, I'm also not someone who's like ever been, um, a fan of the systems that have been in place. 363 00:34:46,225.8819161 --> 00:34:47,35.8819161 Right, right. 364 00:34:47,35.8819161 --> 00:34:51,565.8819161 That's sort of what I meant with like, liberal democracy never existed, but you'll miss it when it's gone. 365 00:34:52,15.8819161 --> 00:34:54,55.8819161 Um, yeah. 366 00:34:54,55.8819161 --> 00:34:57,595.8819161 I, it's, yeah. 367 00:34:57,595.8819161 --> 00:35:06,25.8819161 You know, it's, it's hard because I also agree that a lot of these systems like weren't serving people. 368 00:35:06,85.8819161 --> 00:35:06,505.8819161 Right. 369 00:35:06,535.8819161 --> 00:35:10,105.8819161 And like even before Trump, I was like, this needs to be addressed. 370 00:35:10,135.8819161 --> 00:35:14,215.8819161 But now it's like just whole scale, like. 371 00:35:15,430.8819161 --> 00:35:22,180.8819161 Lawlessness and um, and that's not what anyone's at, you know, it's like, oh, well you wanted to like tear it down. 372 00:35:22,180.8819161 --> 00:35:25,630.8819161 It's like, actually this is not what anyone meant by that. 373 00:35:26,170.8819161 --> 00:35:38,560.8819161 Um, but I mean, to your point about some areas of like hope, um, I'm in the great state of Colorado and I am so moved by the Colorado state and local governments. 374 00:35:38,800.8819161 --> 00:35:42,130.8819161 Um, I feel. 375 00:35:42,880.8819161 --> 00:36:00,70.8819161 Um, I was talking to my partner's mom about this earlier, but like, I, I just feel so grateful to be in a state where I feel like our elected officials, um, care a great deal about their constituents, um, try to protect their constituents. 376 00:36:01,90.8819161 --> 00:36:06,160.8819161 Um, and yeah, I, I think we're seeing that a lot. 377 00:36:06,220.8819161 --> 00:36:07,420.8819161 Um, sort of like. 378 00:36:09,115.8819161 --> 00:36:14,275.8819161 It's sort of up to each state at this point, you know, which, which is really scary actually. 379 00:36:15,875.8819161 --> 00:36:19,345.8819161 What is a liberal democracy? Oh my god, I wish I knew. 380 00:36:19,855.8819161 --> 00:36:28,15.8819161 Um, it's, you know, liberalism is like, there, there's a lot of ways to define it. 381 00:36:28,105.8819161 --> 00:36:28,585.8819161 Right. 382 00:36:28,585.8819161 --> 00:36:32,65.8819161 But it's, I think I, what I think about it, I think of this like. 383 00:36:33,175.8819161 --> 00:36:47,755.8819161 Post World War ii, like Allied Powers trying to construct in the fa you know, after like fascism killed so much, sort of like trying to create a world order that, um, was protective. 384 00:36:47,755.8819161 --> 00:36:51,475.8819161 And I think a lot of that was nominal in many ways. 385 00:36:52,820.8819161 --> 00:36:53,40.8819161 Um. 386 00:36:54,745.8819161 --> 00:37:08,815.8819161 And yeah, you have like these institutions that are in theory, supposed to protect people, um, but that, you know, in, in actuality, like functionally aren't, weren't doing their jobs. 387 00:37:10,845.8819161 --> 00:37:11,895.8819161 It's an aspiration. 388 00:37:12,75.8819161 --> 00:37:13,5.8819161 In other words. 389 00:37:13,15.8819161 --> 00:37:13,465.8819161 Yeah. 390 00:37:13,465.8819161 --> 00:37:21,835.8819161 And I think like the, the failures of liberalism, like, I think liberalism can be really hollow, um, and superficial. 391 00:37:21,835.8819161 --> 00:37:38,905.8819161 And, and I feel like it's very clear that people feel that way, right? Like, like I think it's, it's very hard to, like, I'm trying to think of like an institution, like, I don't know, like, like healthcare, you know, in this country is like. 392 00:37:40,750.8819161 --> 00:37:43,570.8819161 Like the institution of healthcare is, is is a joke. 393 00:37:43,570.8819161 --> 00:37:45,880.8819161 You know, it's like not serving absolutely anyone. 394 00:37:45,880.8819161 --> 00:37:52,840.8819161 And I, I feel like everyone can agree on that and that's something that like spurs a lot of resentment. 395 00:37:52,900.8819161 --> 00:38:04,870.8819161 And I feel like the way you know this, none of this is like an original thought obviously, but, um, I, I feel like people with power and people with like. 396 00:38:06,160.8819161 --> 00:38:12,10.8819161 Perverse motives are exploiting that resentment and that anger. 397 00:38:12,370.8819161 --> 00:38:25,240.8819161 Um, and this country doesn't have such a unified resistance movement of any sort or even like, you know, or supposed like left wing is like. 398 00:38:26,845.8819161 --> 00:38:29,155.8819161 Question mark, like I don't even know where they are. 399 00:38:29,845.8819161 --> 00:38:32,515.8819161 So, but by that I mean the Democratic party. 400 00:38:32,605.8819161 --> 00:38:38,815.8819161 Um, so yeah, it's, um, it's hard. 401 00:38:39,885.8819161 --> 00:38:51,445.8819161 How are you drawn to DSA to the Democratic socialists in America? Well, it's not so much like the name, you know, like, like to me like Democratic socialism. 402 00:38:51,445.8819161 --> 00:38:58,105.8819161 Like, okay, what is that like? It means a lot of different things to different people, but what I am really drawn to is this feeling of community. 403 00:38:58,105.8819161 --> 00:38:58,135.8819161 I. 404 00:38:59,350.8819161 --> 00:39:03,340.8819161 Of mutual aid, like it, it just takes so many forms. 405 00:39:03,370.8819161 --> 00:39:15,760.8819161 I am the co-chair of the housing justice committee and um, I'm always like so inspired when we have our meetings at the public library, how it's such an intergenerational group of people. 406 00:39:16,270.8819161 --> 00:39:26,410.8819161 People from like all walks of life, from Colorado, not from Colorado students, not students like older, retired, like just entering into their career. 407 00:39:26,890.8819161 --> 00:39:27,580.8819161 Um. 408 00:39:28,705.8819161 --> 00:39:48,985.8819161 And also like broadly the group itself, like speaking of moral congruence, like people are kind and warm and caring about the very people in DSA, but also, um, like people in their community. 409 00:39:48,985.8819161 --> 00:39:55,885.8819161 Like one of, um, our members in the housing justice committee recently had a baby, and we did like. 410 00:39:56,380.8819161 --> 00:40:00,850.8819161 A chapter wide meal train for them, you know, and just like really showing up for people. 411 00:40:00,850.8819161 --> 00:40:07,960.8819161 And I feel like it's pretty rare these days, right? When everything is like online, it's hard to find those spaces of like genuine community. 412 00:40:07,960.8819161 --> 00:40:12,160.8819161 And I, I'm really grateful to have found a bit of that in DSAI. 413 00:40:13,810.8819161 --> 00:40:22,180.8819161 Do you feel like, sorry, do you feel like you find more of those spaces in Arina and do you. 414 00:40:22,870.8819161 --> 00:40:24,580.8819161 Whatever your answer to that is. 415 00:40:24,580.8819161 --> 00:40:35,175.8819161 Do you feel like there's some sort of connection between that and like the current climate in the US And by, by spaces like that you mean spaces of of political community. 416 00:40:36,700.8819161 --> 00:40:38,170.8819161 Just community generally. 417 00:40:40,500.8819161 --> 00:40:45,480.8819161 The one group that comes to mind immediately for me is a pretty non-partisan group. 418 00:40:45,540.8819161 --> 00:40:58,200.8819161 It's pretty explicitly non-partisan 'cause it's more issue based and it's sought to be non-partisan because it wants to not exclude anyone in, in this like, pretty bitterly partisan nation. 419 00:40:58,530.8819161 --> 00:41:04,290.8819161 Uh, from, from people who wanna be part of this issue but don't wanna necessarily, uh, be around. 420 00:41:05,100.8819161 --> 00:41:07,380.8819161 Any insinuations of partisanship. 421 00:41:07,950.8819161 --> 00:41:12,750.8819161 So it's, it is sort of, it's explicitly nonpartisan to unite as many people as possible around this issue. 422 00:41:13,530.8819161 --> 00:41:25,650.8819161 And the issue is, um, land restoration in the, in the city of Buenos Aires, specifically of plot of land in the barrio of Palermo, in the neighborhood of Palermo that has been vacant for many years. 423 00:41:25,650.8819161 --> 00:41:26,610.8819161 It used to belong to. 424 00:41:26,970.8819161 --> 00:41:37,620.8819161 To the National Railroad or industry, and it's been, it's been vacant because that railroad line, which is still operational, was elevated around 30 or 40 years ago. 425 00:41:37,680.8819161 --> 00:41:45,0.8819161 And so the plot of land right below it has been just vacant and in a pretty like coveted area of the city. 426 00:41:45,0.8819161 --> 00:41:53,70.8819161 And this organization was born many, many years ago, at least two decades ago, to sort of press for that land to become. 427 00:41:53,745.8819161 --> 00:41:59,475.8819161 First the proposal was an urban forest, then a park, then some sort of community, publicly owned, planned. 428 00:42:00,195.8819161 --> 00:42:06,165.8819161 And I came into, into contact with this organization recently, uh, you know, towards the end of last year. 429 00:42:06,375.8819161 --> 00:42:07,515.8819161 And I joined it. 430 00:42:07,725.8819161 --> 00:42:15,675.8819161 And I've been part of the, of the like steering committee, well, like the general steering committee where we, which, which unites some architects. 431 00:42:15,675.8819161 --> 00:42:21,555.8819161 Mostly it's been a lot of architects who join it, um, architects to not say urban planners, but they're, they're mostly just architects. 432 00:42:22,365.8819161 --> 00:42:27,885.8819161 Um, plus folks with different, with different skill sets that are interested in this becoming a reality. 433 00:42:28,425.8819161 --> 00:42:32,775.8819161 And it's been a, like a, an uphill climb as, as most issues tend to be. 434 00:42:34,635.8819161 --> 00:42:39,375.8819161 I joined it because I was not feeling much community around political issues. 435 00:42:40,485.8819161 --> 00:42:49,95.8819161 one of the harder parts, I would say, or one of the unfulfilling parts of living abroad for me, because I am someone who considers himself very political. 436 00:42:49,125.8819161 --> 00:42:49,725.8819161 It's been. 437 00:42:50,490.8819161 --> 00:42:56,10.8819161 been dispiriting to find that I'm not as called to the struggles. 438 00:42:57,630.8819161 --> 00:43:10,470.8819161 Um, not because they don't appeal to me on an emotional level, but because it's hard for me to think of my, what my involvement could look like in, in a, in a foreign political system. 439 00:43:10,500.8819161 --> 00:43:12,300.8819161 Foreign, even though we were born here. 440 00:43:12,300.8819161 --> 00:43:13,940.8819161 But it's still, Yeah. 441 00:43:14,580.8819161 --> 00:43:30,135.8819161 it's still foreign because I wasn't politicized here, you know? So I joined this group wanting to have somewhere to a vessel for that, for that desire to be participating communally in the betterment of the place I live. 442 00:43:30,465.8819161 --> 00:43:31,65.8819161 And it's been great. 443 00:43:31,65.8819161 --> 00:43:41,325.8819161 I've really enjoyed being part of it, even if it's frustrating 'cause it's a lot of people at the same time trying to do the same thing and as organizations can be, um, you know, disorganized sometimes. 444 00:43:41,325.8819161 --> 00:43:47,715.8819161 But, but, but it's been nice to, to be, to be with people who believe in something similar to you, you know, who share a value system. 445 00:43:47,715.8819161 --> 00:43:47,775.8819161 I. 446 00:43:48,895.8819161 --> 00:43:56,905.8819161 For sure, and I, I wonder if this is also something that gets on your nerves, but whenever someone says like. 447 00:43:58,795.8819161 --> 00:44:05,95.8819161 Oh, you think like your actions are gonna, you think you're gonna like solve the world's crises or something and like save the world. 448 00:44:05,95.8819161 --> 00:44:06,595.8819161 And it's like, no. 449 00:44:06,595.8819161 --> 00:44:13,345.8819161 Like, like it's like, do you think I'm that naive? But there's, it's like, what? So his like, this is the end of history. 450 00:44:13,345.8819161 --> 00:44:17,845.8819161 Like we're all resigned to like determinism or whatever. 451 00:44:17,845.8819161 --> 00:44:24,865.8819161 It's like, um, there's something so beautiful about a group of people coming together with like a shared hope, right. 452 00:44:25,15.8819161 --> 00:44:25,855.8819161 And faith. 453 00:44:25,975.8819161 --> 00:44:26,605.8819161 Um. 454 00:44:27,175.8819161 --> 00:44:51,865.8819161 I think that's so wonderful and, um, yeah, it's, it's interesting that you, I, I didn't know that that was something that you were like explicitly struggling with, was finding that political community, because in my mind I see Athena as a country that is like very, very socially evolved as far as like political movements go. 455 00:44:51,865.8819161 --> 00:44:53,965.8819161 And I think the United States can learn a lot. 456 00:44:54,460.8819161 --> 00:45:00,135.8819161 From like organized movement, right? Yeah, no, I'm, I'm definitely not disagreeing with that. 457 00:45:00,195.8819161 --> 00:45:05,325.8819161 Um, wonder, I'm wondering what, what you see, what, which, which, what social evolution you see here. 458 00:45:07,180.8819161 --> 00:45:17,530.8819161 I think a lot about like the ways that the dirty war is remembered collectively in Argentina. 459 00:45:18,130.8819161 --> 00:45:19,60.8819161 Um. 460 00:45:20,350.8819161 --> 00:45:31,270.8819161 Just, just so explicitly Right, and I feel like this country has very little collective like reckoning or remembrance. 461 00:45:31,270.8819161 --> 00:45:31,840.8819161 It has like. 462 00:45:32,830.8819161 --> 00:45:41,830.8819161 The short term memory loss for lots of things, right? For, for lots of bad things, for, for the great things, you know, like July 4th is coming up. 463 00:45:41,830.8819161 --> 00:45:43,60.8819161 Everyone remembers that. 464 00:45:43,60.8819161 --> 00:45:47,800.8819161 But do we remember like the internment of Japanese Americans? Likely not. 465 00:45:48,160.8819161 --> 00:45:52,185.8819161 Um, and I think there, so much to remember. 466 00:45:52,755.8819161 --> 00:45:56,410.8819161 there, there is so much to remember. 467 00:45:57,715.8819161 --> 00:46:01,15.8819161 But, um, yeah, I, I think I think about that a lot. 468 00:46:01,15.8819161 --> 00:46:03,415.8819161 Like I'm, I'm very moved by that in Argentina. 469 00:46:04,380.8819161 --> 00:46:12,0.8819161 I have definitely seen lots of reassuring movements and tendencies here too, so I'm not disagreeing with that at all. 470 00:46:12,55.8819161 --> 00:46:12,235.8819161 Mm-hmm. 471 00:46:12,240.8819161 --> 00:46:19,470.8819161 Even though, for instance, this, this, um, virtue that you name in the population been put to the test with the current administration. 472 00:46:19,650.8819161 --> 00:46:19,996.8819161 Uh, you know, I. 473 00:46:21,255.8819161 --> 00:46:36,220.8819161 both countries currently are being wrecked by fascism, and one of the strains of this fascism is that it, it participates in something that's been named here, like social amnesia to, to describe in the short term memory loss that yeah, that's a good word. 474 00:46:36,315.8819161 --> 00:46:36,765.8819161 memory. 475 00:46:37,35.8819161 --> 00:46:43,240.8819161 Um, so it's like the, the, the rallying cry is right, like, no, no, no I love that. 476 00:46:43,515.8819161 --> 00:46:44,535.8819161 to social amnesia. 477 00:46:44,655.8819161 --> 00:46:49,425.8819161 Um, and, and often like murals that will be saying a simple message, which is. 478 00:46:51,125.8819161 --> 00:47:03,705.8819161 They were 30,000, which is a reference to the, to the victim count of the, of the, of the military dictatorship, that number has been contested by the current administration. 479 00:47:03,705.8819161 --> 00:47:10,605.8819161 So it's like you see that, you see that on, on, on just publicly, on and on murals and in graffiti. 480 00:47:11,775.8819161 --> 00:47:13,680.8819161 So that's definitely something I, I appreciate too. 481 00:47:14,805.8819161 --> 00:47:25,65.8819161 there's a lot of memory, uh, meia, uh, memory, truth and justice is a, is a, is a booming movement, plus protest culture is really beautiful. 482 00:47:25,155.8819161 --> 00:47:32,835.8819161 There is just a lot of, um, there's a lot of, of Help me out. 483 00:47:34,515.8819161 --> 00:47:35,535.8819161 Yeah, that's it. 484 00:47:35,985.8819161 --> 00:47:38,625.8819161 There's a lot of exhaustion right now. 485 00:47:39,290.8819161 --> 00:47:39,710.8819161 Mm-hmm. 486 00:47:39,945.8819161 --> 00:47:42,45.8819161 Name, you know, going to what you were saying about. 487 00:47:42,750.8819161 --> 00:47:53,640.8819161 Or what are we supposed to just get resigned to what the state of affairs is right now? Well, don't we all feel pushed to do that Sometimes, you know, just be like, fuck, you know, Yeah, it. 488 00:47:53,640.8819161 --> 00:47:54,60.8819161 I'm done. 489 00:47:54,90.8819161 --> 00:47:54,420.8819161 I'm done. 490 00:47:54,420.8819161 --> 00:47:54,630.8819161 I'm done here. 491 00:47:55,105.8819161 --> 00:47:56,275.8819161 yeah, yeah. 492 00:47:56,905.8819161 --> 00:48:07,795.8819161 Um, I, yeah, I'm trying to like walk that line myself with like, I feel like every social engagement that I have, I feel, I feel like I need to talk about like. 493 00:48:08,455.8819161 --> 00:48:20,155.8819161 The latest like Thomas Friedman column and I'm like, have you seen this? You know, or like the latest whatever, and it's like, maybe I should talk about the fucking weather, you know, like for once. 494 00:48:20,215.8819161 --> 00:48:23,515.8819161 And I think there is some like, importance in that. 495 00:48:23,515.8819161 --> 00:48:29,245.8819161 But, but yeah, I think, I think it is like a, a delicate, delicate equilibrium for me. 496 00:48:29,245.8819161 --> 00:48:32,695.8819161 But, but something else that I was, I was talking about this last night, like. 497 00:48:33,925.8819161 --> 00:48:41,935.8819161 You know, I wish it wasn't up to like us civilians to have to talk about these things all the time, and like the very people that should be doing their jobs. 498 00:48:41,935.8819161 --> 00:48:43,585.8819161 Like, shout out Chuck Schumer. 499 00:48:43,945.8819161 --> 00:48:59,425.8819161 Like why isn't, like he is being paid by taxpayer money to like, you know, be the backstop, right? And, and so yeah, it, it's like I, I wish, I wish I could micromanage the. 500 00:49:00,130.8819161 --> 00:49:14,385.8819161 Institutions that be, but unfortunately I don't have that power yet, so Many politicians, um, I think an outsized number of politicians were lawyers or are lawyers also, which is interesting. 501 00:49:14,385.8819161 --> 00:49:20,175.8819161 I know I was thinking about this with regards to psychology or other fields, like why is there not as much of, um. 502 00:49:20,925.8819161 --> 00:49:23,890.8819161 Uh, what's the word? A pipeline from these yeah. 503 00:49:24,555.8819161 --> 00:49:26,715.8819161 to, to politics. 504 00:49:26,835.8819161 --> 00:49:28,215.8819161 Um, I don't know. 505 00:49:28,425.8819161 --> 00:49:29,115.8819161 I don't know why. 506 00:49:30,205.8819161 --> 00:49:44,185.8819161 Yeah, I, I think it's important to have, you know, knowledge of the law and, and all that, but I, I think it has attracted a specific subset of lawyers. 507 00:49:44,965.8819161 --> 00:49:54,115.8819161 Um, I'll leave that there, but, but our current president is not a law school grad, so you know. 508 00:49:54,375.8819161 --> 00:49:55,830.8819161 then that's why we're doing so well. 509 00:49:56,290.8819161 --> 00:49:58,60.8819161 Yeah, exactly. 510 00:49:58,930.8819161 --> 00:49:59,800.8819161 Exactly. 511 00:49:59,980.8819161 --> 00:50:02,230.8819161 So we need more real estate mogul. 512 00:50:03,435.8819161 --> 00:50:10,995.8819161 I wanna take a step, um, I'm gonna step back again and head to your first year of law school. 513 00:50:10,995.8819161 --> 00:50:11,955.8819161 We talked about this. 514 00:50:13,110.8819161 --> 00:50:32,220.8819161 Uh, you know, a while ago there's a big push in law school or if not a push by the law school, just by, by watching others around around you, around one who head into careers where the, that they use the law and that operate around the lot and maybe even include some of that logic and creativity and clarity that you were naming. 515 00:50:32,220.8819161 --> 00:50:36,960.8819161 But they use it for, for-profit means or for sustaining systems that are not necessarily. 516 00:50:37,725.8819161 --> 00:50:38,15.8819161 Yeah. 517 00:50:38,55.8819161 --> 00:50:38,445.8819161 us out. 518 00:50:38,685.8819161 --> 00:50:54,565.8819161 What was there a big, you know, push towards that, uh, when you were, when you were making these important decisions? And what was your decision like to sort of stay in the, in the, in the public? Is it the public good opposed to Oh, I love that. 519 00:50:54,565.8819161 --> 00:50:56,155.8819161 I think that's such a lovely way of putting it. 520 00:50:56,155.8819161 --> 00:51:01,225.8819161 It's public interest is what people say, but I think we should start seeing public good and have that stick. 521 00:51:03,85.8819161 --> 00:51:03,355.8819161 Mm-hmm. 522 00:51:03,985.8819161 --> 00:51:07,105.8819161 Um, but yeah, I mean it's, it's certainly a pipeline. 523 00:51:07,195.8819161 --> 00:51:07,705.8819161 Um, I. 524 00:51:08,455.8819161 --> 00:51:13,195.8819161 I think for a lot of reasons, A, because those opportunities are what pay. 525 00:51:13,465.8819161 --> 00:51:23,875.8819161 Um, like you could, like if we're talking numbers, you could have a summer internship working for a, you know, big law firm. 526 00:51:24,835.8819161 --> 00:51:30,325.8819161 Earning upwards of 40 K over 40 K in a summer as a first year law student. 527 00:51:30,655.8819161 --> 00:51:33,775.8819161 You know, most people are in debt being in law school. 528 00:51:34,165.8819161 --> 00:51:42,415.8819161 Um, or you could go and work for the public defender's office and probably not earn anything and be further in debt, right? Paying your rent and everything. 529 00:51:43,135.8819161 --> 00:51:53,515.8819161 Um, and, you know, not even to speak of like the ways that these big law firms like Wine and Die and all their associates and they pay for bar prep and they pay for like these months of no income. 530 00:51:53,515.8819161 --> 00:52:01,705.8819161 And, uh, so that's, that's like a huge incentive, right? Um, and it's, it's hard to say no to that. 531 00:52:01,705.8819161 --> 00:52:06,835.8819161 And that's why I, I always caution people and myself against like. 532 00:52:07,420.8819161 --> 00:52:29,50.8819161 Having any sort of resentment, um, towards law students that go to those opportunities because I feel very fortunate that I, I got a scholarship for law school, but if, but if I was in debt for law school, I mean certainly like, I, I would take that, you know? Um, and so yeah, I, I think it's really appealing. 533 00:52:29,50.8819161 --> 00:52:34,360.8819161 I think it's, it's, it's sort of like the current, and you have to swim against the current if you want to. 534 00:52:34,660.8819161 --> 00:52:42,460.8819161 Because it, it's sort of like an irrational choice, right? Like, oh, let me, like, get further in debt and do this like really grueling job. 535 00:52:42,820.8819161 --> 00:52:46,270.8819161 Um, you know, that's like in some ways an irrational choice. 536 00:52:46,300.8819161 --> 00:52:49,30.8819161 But I, I think it's context specific. 537 00:52:49,210.8819161 --> 00:52:50,350.8819161 If you wanna go with that. 538 00:52:50,950.8819161 --> 00:52:55,480.8819161 That's a very, um, generous and well-rounded way of, of observing that choice. 539 00:52:55,540.8819161 --> 00:52:56,650.8819161 Um, I appreciate that. 540 00:52:56,830.8819161 --> 00:53:00,850.8819161 It's not as simple as just saying you went for profit, darn Yeah. 541 00:53:00,850.8819161 --> 00:53:01,660.8819161 Sell out. 542 00:53:01,660.8819161 --> 00:53:02,890.8819161 Yeah, for sure. 543 00:53:04,60.8819161 --> 00:53:04,330.8819161 Yeah. 544 00:53:04,930.8819161 --> 00:53:10,60.8819161 Um, was there anything else you wanted to be when you were little? I, I know I probably can remember, but help me out. 545 00:53:11,935.8819161 --> 00:53:17,455.8819161 Um, I remember wanting to be a marine biologist, LOL. 546 00:53:17,485.8819161 --> 00:53:20,395.8819161 My partner right now is a biologist. 547 00:53:21,220.8819161 --> 00:53:26,560.8819161 Hi Will, I hope he is listening to, this is a test Will, if you are listening to this, then text me a heart emoji. 548 00:53:27,820.8819161 --> 00:53:40,420.8819161 Um, but he, anyways, yeah, I wanted to be a marine biologist because we grew up in Miami and I remember we went to this field trip to see Loggerhead Turtles and I thought shit was so cool. 549 00:53:40,480.8819161 --> 00:53:45,310.8819161 And like, I remember this one girl was working there and she was like, really chill. 550 00:53:45,310.8819161 --> 00:53:47,50.8819161 And I was like, I wanna do this. 551 00:53:47,770.8819161 --> 00:53:49,120.8819161 And then I took. 552 00:53:49,585.8819161 --> 00:53:54,355.8819161 One week of biology when I was in college and I was like, absolutely not. 553 00:53:55,350.8819161 --> 00:53:56,460.8819161 You drop the class. 554 00:53:57,265.8819161 --> 00:54:04,795.8819161 yes, and I fully pivoted, um, and became very involved in the history department. 555 00:54:05,965.8819161 --> 00:54:07,615.8819161 Um, yeah. 556 00:54:07,615.8819161 --> 00:54:15,265.8819161 And I, well, to that point, I really thought about, um, like cognitive neuroscience when I was in college. 557 00:54:15,355.8819161 --> 00:54:18,325.8819161 Um, again, coming from this place of like. 558 00:54:19,510.8819161 --> 00:54:36,970.8819161 Social justice and, um, you know, feeling very passionately about working with, I, I remember feeling passionately about working with people with addiction and, um, over spring break, my first summer I worked at, um, this addiction rehab center. 559 00:54:37,450.8819161 --> 00:54:40,690.8819161 Um, but yeah. 560 00:54:40,960.8819161 --> 00:54:44,155.8819161 What about you? Anything else I considered Mm-hmm. 561 00:54:44,835.8819161 --> 00:54:46,365.8819161 I definitely wanted to be a musician. 562 00:54:47,985.8819161 --> 00:54:48,760.8819161 I Yeah. 563 00:54:48,945.8819161 --> 00:54:49,815.8819161 I wanted to be Diego Torres. 564 00:54:51,400.8819161 --> 00:54:51,430.8819161 Aw. 565 00:54:51,855.8819161 --> 00:54:52,305.8819161 yeah. 566 00:54:52,935.8819161 --> 00:54:59,220.8819161 Well, you know that when, when our parents went on their honeymoon and we were, you know, uh, alive and well, or by that point, I. 567 00:54:59,605.8819161 --> 00:54:59,895.8819161 Yeah. 568 00:55:00,120.8819161 --> 00:55:17,400.8819161 um, they, they tasked me, I don't remember what, what, what coping strategy they gave you, but I was distraught at there, leaving for a week, and they gave me the task of learning, uh, a song by de Reza, um, the Color of Hope or Hope's Color by, by the time they came back. 569 00:55:17,850.8819161 --> 00:55:20,520.8819161 And I, that was like my first gig. 570 00:55:21,450.8819161 --> 00:55:22,800.8819161 Um, Okay. 571 00:55:23,970.8819161 --> 00:55:27,780.8819161 and I definitely had like, had had that fantasy for a while. 572 00:55:28,245.8819161 --> 00:55:30,465.8819161 Uh, I was, I was pretty crazy about it, I think for a bit. 573 00:55:30,495.8819161 --> 00:55:33,765.8819161 I never really did anything to like, to get there. 574 00:55:34,155.8819161 --> 00:55:37,825.8819161 Uh, you know, I Um, classes you literally auditioned for the voice. 575 00:55:38,265.8819161 --> 00:55:38,685.8819161 Oh my God. 576 00:55:38,685.8819161 --> 00:55:39,345.8819161 You're right. 577 00:55:39,375.8819161 --> 00:55:41,85.8819161 I did, I did do that. 578 00:55:41,355.8819161 --> 00:55:46,575.8819161 Um, and no one's taken down the videos to my deep dismay, but I, I did. 579 00:55:47,115.8819161 --> 00:55:47,595.8819161 I did. 580 00:55:47,595.8819161 --> 00:55:49,935.8819161 I did, I did pursue that once. 581 00:55:49,995.8819161 --> 00:55:56,295.8819161 Um, and I'd also auditioned for acapella in college, so I guess, it was just, it didn't shoot to me. 582 00:55:59,295.8819161 --> 00:56:00,225.8819161 But that's fine. 583 00:56:00,435.8819161 --> 00:56:06,295.8819161 That's but I remember you from very early on expressing a very deep interest in psychology. 584 00:56:06,945.8819161 --> 00:56:07,275.8819161 yeah. 585 00:56:07,275.8819161 --> 00:56:07,845.8819161 It was the thing. 586 00:56:07,845.8819161 --> 00:56:25,185.8819161 I applied to college with, um, child psychology and I pretty soon, pretty soon after starting college, dropped that because I wasn't appreciating the approach that was taken in, in the courses I was in, um, you know, pretty like quantitative and pathologizing approach. 587 00:56:25,830.8819161 --> 00:56:42,600.8819161 So I, so I took like a, a really broad detour through political science, which I think is concerned with many of the same questions that should concern psychology around how do people build good lives, whether through the systems that they live in or through their own cognitive abilities. 588 00:56:42,600.8819161 --> 00:56:49,650.8819161 So it's, I think it's, it's getting at the same question, but yeah, that, so I, I did, I did I feel pretty early on that psychology was it, but I don't know. 589 00:56:49,650.8819161 --> 00:56:50,820.8819161 I feel like that could be many things. 590 00:56:50,825.8819161 --> 00:56:52,680.8819161 Don't, don't you like, uh. 591 00:56:54,750.8819161 --> 00:56:57,210.8819161 I dunno what, what, what, which one I was thinking about the other day. 592 00:56:57,900.8819161 --> 00:57:00,900.8819161 I, I definitely thought about law, law at one point in college too. 593 00:57:02,550.8819161 --> 00:57:04,380.8819161 Um, so yeah. 594 00:57:05,140.8819161 --> 00:57:07,180.8819161 I had love to be a high school history teacher. 595 00:57:07,620.8819161 --> 00:57:07,680.8819161 Hmm. 596 00:57:08,860.8819161 --> 00:57:11,515.8819161 If I fail the bar, that's what I'll pivot to. 597 00:57:11,735.8819161 --> 00:57:12,995.8819161 That's a great backup plan. 598 00:57:13,485.8819161 --> 00:57:13,775.8819161 Yeah. 599 00:57:15,645.8819161 --> 00:57:19,20.8819161 I think that we should have another one of these soon. 600 00:57:19,930.8819161 --> 00:57:20,830.8819161 Yeah. 601 00:57:20,860.8819161 --> 00:57:22,105.8819161 I would love that so much. 602 00:57:22,990.8819161 --> 00:57:25,750.8819161 Can't wait to hear my own voice and be traumatized. 603 00:57:26,220.8819161 --> 00:57:26,670.8819161 Yeah. 604 00:57:26,700.8819161 --> 00:57:29,730.8819161 Well, I'm gonna have to see if the audio worked for the first half. 605 00:57:29,760.8819161 --> 00:57:33,70.8819161 'cause I made a mistake, um, okay. 606 00:57:33,300.8819161 --> 00:57:34,920.8819161 with the selection of a microphone. 607 00:57:34,920.8819161 --> 00:57:36,600.8819161 But it should probably be fine. 608 00:57:36,600.8819161 --> 00:57:38,700.8819161 Or I'll just gonna, I'm just gonna spend a lot of time editing it. 609 00:57:38,760.8819161 --> 00:57:39,210.8819161 We'll see. 610 00:57:39,435.8819161 --> 00:57:41,740.8819161 Thank And that is okay. 611 00:57:42,630.8819161 --> 00:57:44,275.8819161 you so much for, Okay. 612 00:57:44,430.8819161 --> 00:57:48,510.8819161 this time together and, uh, even if you're, even as you're preparing for the bar. 613 00:57:49,90.8819161 --> 00:57:49,960.8819161 I'm so honored. 614 00:57:49,960.8819161 --> 00:57:50,890.8819161 Thank you for having me. 615 00:57:57,227.1793152 --> 00:57:58,277.1793152 Thanks for being here. 616 00:57:58,847.1793152 --> 00:58:06,377.1793152 If this conversation resonated with you, consider reviewing therapy for the world or sharing the link with someone who might appreciate it. 617 00:58:07,37.1793152 --> 00:58:10,487.1793152 Until next time, speak with care and listen deeply.