Migration, Music, Otherness, and Psychoanalysis for the People

María Verónica Laguna is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker, clinical supervisor, and psychoanalytic psychotherapist in private practice in Uruguay. She spent over a decade working in New York City, where she taught Social Work at Mercy University and served as an instructor at the Metropolitan Institute for Training in Psychoanalytic Psychotherapy. She is the co-author of From Grad School to Private Practice: A Roadmap for Mental Health Clinicians and has forthcoming chapters on immigrants’ self-states and critical psychology. Her work spans continents and disciplines—she founded The Bicultural Collective to support bicultural individuals and the clinicians who serve them, and leads Psychoanalysis and Social Justice, a collaborative database curating events and resources at the intersection of clinical practice and activism. She also explores the intersection of music and mental health, facilitating workshops on tango’s therapeutic power and on learning Spanish through Latin American protest songs. I first met María through that protest songs group, and then discovered we share other interests—psychoanalysis, social work, and the experience of migration from the Southern Cone to the United States and back again. She is warm, good-hearted, and passionate, and it was a joy to connect with her for what I hope is the first of many conversations. In this hour, we talk about the role of immigration and otherness in the consulting room, the cultural roots of psychoanalysis in the Southern Cone, and what it means to work towards a psychoanalysis for the people. We explore how music and movement can be tools for healing, how to channel anger into social change, and how clinical work, activism, and art can meet in the service of collective wellbeing. Support the project: patreon.com/TherapyfortheWorld Music credits: “Limit 70,” licensed by Kevin MacLeod “Meditation” by Jules Massenet, from the Library of Congress Jukebox

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
I'm not here to help you be a more functional member of society. 2 00:00:04,400.0000000001 --> 00:00:05,780 That's not what I'm here to do.

(00:06):
I'm just here to help you understand how your mind works, what are the sources of your suffering and how you're sometimes getting in the way of your own happiness, fulfillment, et cetera, right? It's like, why is this not, uh, an approach to make people happy, but to make people suffer better or suffer on their own terms? Welcome to Therapy for the World, an interview series exploring the personal stories of people working across the spectrum of self-care and world care.

(00:45):
I'm Dan Sikorsky, a writing teacher and therapist, and the other voice you hear is Maria Una, a licensed clinical social worker, clinical supervisor, and psychoanalytic psychotherapist in private practice in Uruguay.
Maria spent over a decade working in New York City where she taught social work at Mercy University and served as an instructor at the Metropolitan Institute for training in psychoanalytic psychotherapy.

(01:12):
She's also the co-author of From grad School to Private Practice, a roadmap for mental health clinicians, and has forthcoming chapters on immigrants self states and critical psychology.
Her work spans continents and disciplines.
She founded the Bicultural Collective to support bicultural individuals and the clinicians who serve them, and she leads psychoanalysis and social justice, a collaborative database, curating events and resources at the intersection of clinical practice and activism.

(01:42):
She also explores the intersection of music and mental health, facilitating workshops on Tango's Therapeutic power and on learning Spanish through Latin American protest songs.
I first met Maria through that protest songs group, and then discovered we share other interests, psychoanalysis, social work, and the experience of migration from the southern cone to the United States and back again.

(02:08):
She's warm, good-hearted, and passionate.
And it was a joy to connect with her for what I hope is the first of many conversations.
We recorded this just past noon on Saturday, August 9th, 2025.
Here's our conversation.
I.

(02:35):
Maria, so happy to be here with you.
We're just a little bit of a, of a river away right now.
You're in Mon, you're in Montevideo and I'm in Buenos Aires.
I wanna start this off by asking you, as we tend to hear, if you can point to an experience, something, a person, anything in your childhood, early life that you feel helped shape the person you are today.

(02:59):
Well, that's a great question and I feel like the answer to it explains so much about myself, my career.
Um, have you seen the movie Matilda? Of course.
Okay, well, I am like Matilda in the sense that, you know, my teachers and my friends saved me after having been raised in an abusive household.
Um, it was through that inspiration, that support my love for reading, my love for music that really shaped me and gave me the resilience to be the person that I am.

(03:29):
And that's how I found a whole world of, of passions around music, literature, et cetera.
Um, so I would say the teachers in my life have been crucial for me.
Did they see you as someone who was struggling or did you have to announce and say, Hey, I They did.
I think they did.
Yes.
Yes, yes.

(03:49):
I was raised in a small town where everyone knew each other.
Uh, I was a the shy girl, but I was always, you know, reading, you know, in the corner with a book.
Uh, but not, not in a sense of like social isolation.
That's, that's I think the, a big of my strengths, right.
That, you know, I, I was able to handle, um.

(04:11):
You know, a lot of traumas, uh, through my passions about, you know, again, music, literature and connections with teachers.
Yes.
And actually that's why I became a teacher myself, like the Miss Honeys of my life.
Right.
It was the name of the teacher, miss Honey.
I think Uh, I became one.
So that's how deep it goes.

(04:33):
My, my relationship with those figures.
early on you also chose the path of psychology.
How did you end up choosing to study that, um, at university and why? Uh, well, um, my parents had, uh, like Ca Bodega or I don't know what, like a convenience store and, and we would live behind it.

(04:56):
And I would notice from early on that customers had such need to talk.
About their lives.
They this deep, deep, deep need to be listened to.
And that's always fascinated me as a little girl.
Um, and I think I'd also connected with my need to be listened to.
Um, and then I thought, oh my God, this is fascinating.

(05:18):
I wonder if there's a profession and people who just listen.
I mean, there's a need there.
And I noticed that very early, early on.
And you know, then with my relationship with my teachers in high school, even in primary school, they all saw that in me.
Like, you're, you're a good listener.
You have interesting questions to ask.

(05:39):
And it was through that reflection over the years that I said, okay.
Maybe I can do that.
Uh, and then I read Freud.
I think I came across interpretation of dreams.
I've always been a dreamer.
I've always been someone who remembers my dreams.
And, you know, I just thought, okay, this is, this is what I wanna do.
So I knew I wanted to be a therapist ever since I was maybe 12, 13.

(06:05):
Clarity.
Yes, yes, yes.
the image you paint of the Uhhuh, I think I've, I see that often too.
People coming in and chatting with the owner or with each other.
Less so.
But with the owner, yes.
would someone attend to their need to be listened to or would they just kind of speak into the va, into the emptiness? Exactly to the void.

(06:29):
Yes, yes, yes.
And a, a, a such deep, profound and intimate level.
Right? So I remember that as a child.
I was like, oh, this is pretty unique.
Um, so yes, and then I, I realized, oh, well, this's actually a profession that is called psychology that facilitates this.
Beautiful.
And you mentioned Freud early on.

(06:52):
Yes.
build your orientation over the course of your year studying psychology? Well, that's a, that's a great question.
I wouldn't say build it, um, in ui when we think of psychology, um, and this is shocking for my, my us friends and colleagues, it's almost like a synonym of psychoanalysis, uh, in Uruguay.

(07:14):
I mean, we, we, Roy, from day one, other orientations that we do cover, like CVT.
Or more like focal therapy.
We regard them as more foreign.
Uh, psychoanalysis is so embedded in our society that, you know, people in jail do psychoanalysis, people in psychiatric hospitals, in public schools, I would say it's embedded in the very fabric of society.

(07:37):
Even the, the daily language we talk about, oh, you're, you're unconscious betrayed you, or, oh, that was a, a sleep of tongue, right? This sort of language is, is very much embedded.
Um, and honestly I thought myself walking into a psychology, uh, university that psychology and psych were one and the same.

(07:58):
And then I realized, oh no, there's a whole other world.
So in a way, my experience has been kind of like, like the negative of the experience of many people in other countries where psychosis maybe is not the, the, the main.
The go-to.
Um, so that's, that's been a, a very interesting process, um, where going from, oh, this is the standard, this is the norm.

(08:20):
And then realizing, well, no, it's actually very contextual.
It's a question that's been asked before, why psychoanalysis has such traction in this area of the world, and I don't, I haven't heard an answer that's yet fully convinced me, but I wanted to put the question on the table.
Why do you think it's like the, the, the way doing psychology, of attending to, to, to suffering and of attending to c.

(08:46):
Well, uh, I, first of all, I agree with you that I haven't found any one answer that that feels the right fit, but I think a big part of it has to do with precise immigration, which is one of the topics that I love the most.
And, you know, the influx of, of exiles, of, you know, of saana is fleeing, um, nasty regimes.

(09:06):
Um, but I think also.
Um, I think it has to do with, with this, a culture of surviving instead of how do, how, how do I explain it? I, I think Southern corn, I don't wanna speak to, you know, south America as a whole because, you know, having been in every single country, but I think there's an element of precarious forms of, of living that force people to live with uncertainty, paradoxes, a lot of things that are very psychoanalytically aligned, right? Psychoanalysis is not the art of being happy.

(09:52):
It's more about getting to know ourselves, but also sitting with discomfort.
Um, and, and the unknown, right? So the idea that we all have an unconscious that we're not fully in control of, I think it's something that.
It's deeply embedded in, in the way we are.
And that is already taught from early on in, in implicit ways.

(10:15):
Um, and I think there's, you know, in other cultures that are more pragmatic, more consumerist, more individualistic, um, they don't play so much emphasis on attachment or again, unconscious or death drives, right? So I think, um, the history of colonial violence, uh, we know very well we in our bones, the impact of violence, the impact of displacement, the way that filters into our unconscious.

(10:47):
Um, and even though we may not use unconscious, the word unconscious in our daily lives, I, I think we are all very much shaped by it.
Uh, I also think the history of dictatorships in the southern cone and the collective trauma that has created.
Way, history is repeated.
Right? That's something very psychoanalytic, I would say.

(11:09):
So I think it very much aligns with, with the profession here.
Seems like you were very in touch growing up and also while studying with the specific forms of suffering or the specific issues and specific sources of trauma in the, in the, in your geographic space.

(11:31):
As someone who's also, you know.
Moved around and considered practicing psychology in different parts of the world.
What was it like for you to move to the states and encounter a whole different gamut of, um, stress, social stressors and situations? Well, it was a, it was a whole new world because.

(11:56):
I, I left Uruguay, um, right after I graduated, actually, here in Otay.
So basically my clinical practice in Otay up until now has been only as an intern.
I did my internship in a psychiatric hospital called, uh, LAR Devo, which is like Alor in Argentina.

(12:16):
Uh, and they're very, people are living there under very precarious conditions.
Many of those who have no family, who were admitted ones and nobody else asked if either even alive.
So a big part of my job was to be with these patients and, or, you know, clients, whatever word.
Um, and, um, and so my only experience here was working with folks institutionalized with severe mental illness.

(12:44):
My first time working with other populations, it was actually in the us.
Um, I, it started, I started with working with homeless population as a social worker.
Then I transitioned, uh, as a therapist, and the experience has been incredibly enriching and humbling, this idea that whatever we, we thought we knew about people, there's, there's so much more.

(13:11):
I mean, just the experience of going from a small town, you know, to Hawaii where everyone knows each other to New York, that in and of itself, it's such a revolution, an internal revolution.
Um, and, um, you know, I, I could go on and on describing what that experience was for me, but I would say it was hard, A lot of imposter syndrome, uh, a lot of, okay, you don't belong here.

(13:38):
Um, but then, you know, finding my way, uh, and being in a city that there so many immigrants, it, it became sort of like an accidental niche of mine.
Uh, once I started my private practice, most of the people that came to seek my services were immigrants.
Or children of immigrants.
So in a way, um, my experience there was very different from my experience here.

(14:04):
I, the word alterity is coming to mind for me.
Like be being other somehow in a Yes, yes.
an, such a formative experience to have gone through, whether Um, absolutely.
town to the big city or moving to another country.
I think people are drawn to that.
It must be like a, something that occurs, you know, in, in the clinic, like drawn to, drawn to the, to the acquaintance with difference, the acquaintance with Yes, ways of being, you know, of, of, with, yes.

(14:32):
uh, non-duality, but also like, uh, the paradoxes that you were mentioning earlier too.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and that encounter with alter can, can lead to healthy curiosity, but it can also lead to othering.
Right.
And one thing that I've always been very sensitized as someone that has been othered.
Uh, in many spaces is what happens when that experience of being othered is not examined.

(14:59):
What happens when we don't have a space to process that otherness? And a big one, which, you know, I, I've experienced myself, is precisely imposter syndrome as a form of internalized, othering, uh, even as a form of internalized colonialism, right? The idea that, oh, we don't belong, right? Um, so, and, you know, seeing firsthand how people relate to that othering as a way of solving their psychic conflicts.

(15:27):
And sometimes it leads to even more othering or even worse, um, people who have been marginalized internalizing that or identifying with the aggressor and thinking, okay, well, I think what a lot of my, my patients ask me, like, Maria, how do you explain Latinos voting for Trump? Right.

(15:50):
And that is a, a way of relating with otherness.
I don't wanna be other, I'm the one who, others.
Others.
Right.
Um, if I take on the role of the aggressor, then I don't have to worry about being othered and, uh, and I have catastrophic consequences.
Right.
And we're seeing them right now.

(16:14):
Relating to otherness is a, a really lovely way of putting that as a re as a dynamic relationship.
That can Yes, many, like too many, yes, in many ways.
yes.
And, and not only in terms of immigration, but also gender sexuality.
Right.
That's something that also I, I find fascinating how, um, and, and I wrote about it, um, how gender sexual expression, um, personality class.

(16:41):
Can change from a pre-migration identity to a post-migration identity, right? People that all of a sudden come from countries where homosexuality is criminalized and then they move to a place where it's not, and then they found themselves realizing, oh, wait a second.
This may be, this may be resonating more with my experience, but I never even thought about it because it was criminalized.

(17:07):
Um, and sometimes people can react to that realization by embracing that or by rejecting it even more, and going to the other side of, you know, homophobia and internalized homophobia.
Pretty early on, you found a link in psychology, psychoanalysis, and many of the social issues that we're talking about, you know, uh, champion championing change and dynamics that are more emancipatory than they are constraining for populations, dynamics that, make things possible instead of limiting experiences.

(17:45):
Where did that connection, you, we were speaking off the air about how that connection was sort of like, like always there for you, right? Yes.
how, how is that so.
I think my experience in Bilar Devo Hospital was incredibly transformative because those are the people who society completely forgot about, and, and for American psychoanalysis, it will be the non likable patients.

(18:12):
The ones that are very concrete, very primitive.
And that's something that always pissed me off so much after moving from order y, having done good work, having seen colleagues doing great analytic work and then going to New York and, and listening from sometimes my own teachers, I know that that patient is too difficult, too complicated, too concrete, too primitive.

(18:33):
And, and after Right? like Too complicated for what? Right.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And, and placing that difficulty of engaging in the patient.
Right.
The resistant patient.
The difficult patient.
Well, what, what about the relationship? Maybe there's something in the therapist that it's making the person difficult to engage because they're not opening up because you know what, whatever.

(18:58):
Um, so I think it was by working with, with extremely vulnerable populations that early on, I, I had that sense of, okay, yes, can really be, um.
A motor for change in, in, you know, and, and in order for that to happen, it has to be thought of outside of the clinical room.

(19:21):
I mean, it's beyond the analytic couch.
And I think that's something that in the states, sadly, a lot of people still think about psycho the only, the pure psychoanalysis.
It has to be on the analytic couch.
And I don't think that's true.
I think that's another form of othering actually.
How is that the case othering? Well, um, you know, uh, I, I found that a lot of colleagues who talk about, you know, the, this is pure analytic work and, and those who divide analytic patients versus non likable patients, many of them are the same ones that say, well, we should not be thinking about social stuff.

(20:02):
Should not bother with thinking about social issues.
And that idea always, you know, I, I found it so jarring.
How can we even separate them? The personnel is political.
Um, and you know, there's to this day, 2025, a lot of arguments in Listervs and, and groups about, oh no, this is too social.

(20:25):
We shouldn't be talking about violence, about genocide, about, you know, systemic issues.
That's for other people.
Where else can it go then if beyond the couch, right? Where else should psychoanalysis be? There's a wonderful documentary that I highly recommend called Psychoanalysis in the Varrio that talks about psychoanalysis in Harlem and, and non-traditional settings, even though traditional, it, it's a dis it's an official discourse, right? I don't think it's a non-traditional setting.

(20:58):
What is non-traditional for them is traditional for me.
Right.
Uh, and one of the therapies that's interviewed, I don't remember which one.
She talked about psychoanalysis as a sensibility, not only as a theory or a practice, but a sensibility.
And, and that concept really blew my mind because I truly believe that a psychoanalytic sensibility can be transferred to many aspects of our lives, to organizations, to the way managers handle staff conflict, um, any group dynamics education, right.

(21:36):
To, to be sensitized to, to this almost like a narcissistic injury.
Like Freud say that we do have an unconscious and that there's part of ourselves that we're not aware of and that we're not in control of.
And to fully embrace that and to be curious about our own minds, right? I think sequin is, allows us to be curious and, and.

(22:00):
Normalizes that it's okay to be curious, um, and that it's necessary.
And I think that that spirit of curiosity of surrendering complete control, that's something that we can all collectively benefit from.
Of course, the crisis has the limitations as a practice and as a theory, but when I think about sequences as a sensibility, that's when it becomes more, um, gen general or more, you know, easily, um, transferred to other domains.

(22:41):
Did you find yourself needing to defend psychoanalysis a lot when you moved to the states? Yes, yes, absolutely.
And, and of all places, you know, where I have to defend it the most, and this is so shocking to me in social work school.
Because, and, and that, that helped me so much to learn about how psycho a is seen in the United States, which is very different from here.

(23:07):
My, my classmates would be like, Maria, where, where are you gonna work after, um, you finish your master and say, well, I wanna be a, a psychoanalyst or a psychoanalytic therapy.
Oh, so you wanna work with the worried? Well, and I would go, what do you mean? I mean, I come from a country where I was working with the most vulnerable people doing psychoanalysis, so I don't understand this.

(23:32):
And then my classmates taught me that psychoanalysis in the US has historically been, you know, focused on, you know, more privileged people, um, which is completely different from how we do psychosis in South America.
So as I found myself defending psychoanalysis there, I thought, wait a second, I'm gonna stop defending it and understanding more from my colleagues.

(23:57):
Why is that? Why is that accusation, why are they talking about psychoanalysis as something elitist? Something? Um, again, for the worried well, and, and not really well that, that's because a lot of practitioners created that.
Right? Um, so then I stopped defending psychoanalysis and I started criticizing it more, Hmm.

(24:22):
Beautiful.
You joined the assault.
No, I'm kidding.
Well, it's, it's the assault on, on a traditional bit.
Yes, yes.
Just a little bit.
Uh, yes.
Yes.
You know when, when these friends or these colleagues would say, you know what? That's, it's just for the worried.
Well, I think that the, the argument is building counter examples, right? Like, no, you can also work with x with psychoanalysis.

(24:51):
Something that I've, I've heard a lot is, is this idea of where else do I have 45 minutes just for myself when I don't have to worry about the wellbeing of the therapist? Where I don't have to worry about offending where I can bring my rage, my sadness, my inappropriateness without being controlled, without being told what to do.

(25:13):
Right.
Another thing that it's a huge different, has been a huge difference in terms of psycho essis here and there in order.
While we started reading Michelle Fuko and, and dynamics of power and control from early on, I had never read a single word of Michelle Fuko in none of my psychotic training.

(25:34):
It's always only psychoanalyst, not philosophers, not, um, and you know, patients that come from extremely marginalized places, they're, they're the ones that are more subject to control.
Right.
Um, what they need to do to keep their housing, to keep their food stamps, um, when they go to the doctor, right? What they have to do to keep their, their benefits.

(26:01):
And I, I hate that they call it like, that benefits when it's basic needs.
Um, and like, it's, it's a relief from that.
It's like, okay, here, I'm, I'm not here to help you be a more functional member of society.
That's not what I'm here to do.
I'm just here to help you understand how your mind works, what are the sources of your suffering and how you're sometimes getting in the way of your own happiness, fulfillment, et cetera, right? It's like, why is this not, uh, an approach to make people happy, but to make people suffer better or suffer on their own terms? Like Adam Phillips said, It's beautiful.

(26:42):
It's, it, it is hard to defend psychoanalysis in a very evidence-based world that like yes.
to quantify and it seeks to understand, like what is gonna happen in each session and what is the treatment plan for, for this patient and so on.
Uh, but I love the words that you bring up about sensibility.
I mean, I, I find myself even in sitis now.

(27:03):
Sure, training is mostly still psychoanalytic, but you do have a lot of professors a new wave of, of an approach that's very contrary to it right then that, that, that really tries to push psychoanalysis under the rug and to propose that it's not working and that it's, it's an old fashioned way.
I had a professor the other day say that psychoanalysis is great for a philosophy class.

(27:27):
He said, you know, or that it, or it's great for a literature class and it, and those of us who.
Who ascribe to some of its beliefs are just sitting there in class a little bit powerless to debate this man.
But, uh, do, you do encounter some of that.
In any case, the the principles that you bring up are, I think, foundational for how one relates to oneself and to others and, and in a space with other people.

(27:51):
Certainly.
Uh, you created a resource at one point, and I wonder where, at which point, that was a database on psychoanalysis and social justice.
I understand it as a, an approach to bringing something else to the psychoanalytic table in the states.
yes, that project born? it was thanks to George Floyd.

(28:12):
Actually, um, after the murder of George Floyd, there were a lot of conversations online.
You know, the pandemic hit, um, later.
Um.
You know, there were riots, A lot was going on, and I really wanted to engage colleagues or be part of conversations around that and, and what we can do.
And that's when I started to hear more of like, no, no, we shouldn't go there.

(28:34):
So suggested, let's leave that to others.
And around that time I started doing more research and, and learning from other colleagues that just like me, were more aligned with, no, it's like ESIS can really, um, offer something to think about social problems because that's how it started actually.
Um, and, and you know, seeing that, that division and, and that accusation of Oh, losis cannot help social problems.

(29:03):
It was sort of like my response to that.
Like, no, there's a lot.
Um, and there's a lot that we're not taught in formal education and formal circles.
I also started seeing there's so many, um, events going on online because of the pandemic.
I was like, oh my God, this is amazing.
I need to put it all in one place.

(29:25):
Um, and I actually did it for, for personal reasons, sort of like, okay, instead of having a folder, um, in my Google Drive, I wanna share it with other people, and then started teaching.
So it was also a way of, you know, exchanging information.
And actually it led to wonderful opportunities.
I, people from Germany, I mean, it has subscribing from all over the world.

(29:48):
People from Germany found it, um, of an institute that suddenly no longer exists called Skill Point.
And they were like, oh my God, this is amazing.
And this is pretty rare.
And I thought, well, it shouldn't be rare.
And, and thanks to the website, I got the opportunity to teach about critical psychology, um, for a year.
Because of that, because of my passion to, to bridging.

(30:11):
A bridge that should have never been broken.
Um, so that's, that's how it, it came up.
And, you know, I'm constantly searching.
I, I subscribe to so many newsletters, so I, I, I, you know, I tell people if you have any event or anything, please send it my way.
And now I'm telling your audience too.
Um, any event, book, article that you, you think it's aligned with Psycho Justice, feel free to send in my way and, and I'll put it on the database. 275 00:30:41,490.1975892 --> 00:30:44,370.1975892 One of the terms that you use is critical psychology. 276 00:30:44,370.1975892 --> 00:30:47,10.1975892 Another is emancipatory psychoanalysis. 277 00:30:47,40.1975892 --> 00:31:01,85.1975892 Uh, are they one and the same, or, and how do you understand those terms? I think critical psychology would lead to emancipation or lead to ways in which we can. 278 00:31:01,920.1975892 --> 00:31:02,700.1975892 Achieve that. 279 00:31:02,700.1975892 --> 00:31:06,480.1975892 I don't think it's, it's a, an end product, but more like a, like a constant process. 280 00:31:06,480.1975892 --> 00:31:09,150.1975892 We're always trying to emancipate. 281 00:31:09,660.1975892 --> 00:31:23,580.1975892 Um, I don't think, you know, while we're embedded in, in a neoliberal capitalist society, I don't think there's such a thing as complete emancipation, but it's always something to, to, to strive towards. 282 00:31:24,60.1975892 --> 00:31:28,440.1975892 Um, the big question is emancipating from what? Right. 283 00:31:29,70.1975892 --> 00:31:41,880.1975892 So, critical psychology, I'm very interested in the works of, uh, Ian Parker and their cook, who basically they, they shed light on the importance of being self-critical. 284 00:31:42,420.1975892 --> 00:31:42,870.1975892 Right. 285 00:31:43,230.1975892 --> 00:31:45,840.1975892 And the way psychology can cause harm as well. 286 00:31:46,230.1975892 --> 00:31:46,650.1975892 Right. 287 00:31:47,220.1975892 --> 00:31:49,920.1975892 Not that long ago, homosexuality was part of the DSM. 288 00:31:51,165.1975892 --> 00:31:58,905.1975892 Uh, there's a history of psychologists being complicit with dictatorships and, you know, Guantanamo and, you know, in South America as well. 289 00:31:59,355.1975892 --> 00:32:10,455.1975892 So, critical psychology, uh, as a practice of constantly questioning ourselves, never assuming that we have a, a, an end solution to things. 290 00:32:10,965.1975892 --> 00:32:25,695.1975892 Understanding the internalized colonialism, the internal fascist that we'll have inside the most, um, undesired or shameful aspects of ourselves that we carry into our, our work and constantly revisiting them. 291 00:32:27,420.1975892 --> 00:32:52,755.1975892 Who do you lean on theoretically to provide intellectual community around these issues? Right? You've mentioned a couple authors, but who would you point to as authors? Theorists who have been good company for you? Well, Elizabeth Danto, she's a historian and she wrote a wonderful book about Freud's free clinics and the history of psychoanalysis in, you know, class. 292 00:32:53,355.1975892 --> 00:32:58,365.1975892 Um, so I think she has been a, a great, um, source. 293 00:32:58,695.1975892 --> 00:33:07,125.1975892 Daniel Guam, who just, um, I think published his third, his second book or third book about the colonial psychoanalysis. 294 00:33:07,365.1975892 --> 00:33:09,225.1975892 Also a great source of inspiration. 295 00:33:09,855.1975892 --> 00:33:29,355.1975892 Um, Olo also, um, who, um, based in New York, she's from Greece, has that amazing work about, you know, emancipation in terms of sexual practices and, and forms of being, um, Ian Parker from the Red Clinic. 296 00:33:29,895.1975892 --> 00:33:33,465.1975892 Actually the, everything the, the Red Clinic does, I think it's amazing. 297 00:33:34,305.1975892 --> 00:33:35,415.1975892 Um. 298 00:33:37,335.1975892 --> 00:33:38,175.1975892 Gloria Sand. 299 00:33:38,505.1975892 --> 00:33:43,395.1975892 Well, now I'm gonna name other, uh, adjacent authors that are not Psych Elite per se. 300 00:33:43,545.1975892 --> 00:34:02,205.1975892 Um, Gloria Sanda, uh, Chicana activist, poet, uh, writer, um, Michelle Fuco, who, you know, uh, talked, you know, sensitized us to the, the role of power and control, the less. 301 00:34:02,205.1975892 --> 00:34:05,595.1975892 And, uh, there's so many. 302 00:34:06,240.1975892 --> 00:34:06,810.1975892 Yeah. 303 00:34:06,915.1975892 --> 00:34:11,805.1975892 say those are the ones that, that I, I keep in my mind and I have internal dialogues with. 304 00:34:11,805.1975892 --> 00:34:18,675.1975892 And Sandra for nc definitely, That last name that you mentioned is one that you're often in dialogue with, yes. 305 00:34:18,990.1975892 --> 00:34:31,545.1975892 W why, what attracted you to, to his work? Well, I think I identify with, with him a lot in the sense that he was the one that worked with the, the patient that nobody else wanted to work with. 306 00:34:32,610.1975892 --> 00:34:38,100.1975892 Actually Freud, I mean, he studied with Freud and he's one of the dissidents, right? Along with young and others. 307 00:34:38,100.1975892 --> 00:34:50,160.1975892 So I always like that rebellious attitude of, wait a second, Freud, we need to question our own hypocrisy, right? Um, if the patient is doing something that we don't understand, it's not that they're projecting maybe that we are failing. 308 00:34:50,160.1975892 --> 00:34:56,550.1975892 So that, that intellectual honesty always moved me, and that's something that I always strive to. 309 00:34:57,690.1975892 --> 00:35:00,210.1975892 He was the first to work with transgender patients. 310 00:35:00,300.1975892 --> 00:35:05,400.1975892 He worked with so many people that other colleagues did not wanna work with because they were too difficult. 311 00:35:06,390.1975892 --> 00:35:10,740.1975892 And that's how I started my career working with those who are too difficult. 312 00:35:11,550.1975892 --> 00:35:25,910.1975892 Um, which I think in and of itself, it's a statement, right? It's like, no, there's a, a wonderful quote by pr Patricia Roci, who's Argentinian, that says Even the poor can afford an unconscious. 313 00:35:28,90.1975892 --> 00:35:28,500.1975892 Right. 314 00:35:28,500.1975892 --> 00:35:34,530.1975892 And, that, I think that's a perfect answer to who can benefit from psychoanalysis, anyone who has an unconscious. 315 00:35:35,400.1975892 --> 00:35:43,980.1975892 And I think Ferenczi got that very, very clear, his work on, identification with the aggressor. 316 00:35:44,700.1975892 --> 00:35:50,550.1975892 I think is so relevant, especially to understanding what's going on geopolitically, right. 317 00:35:50,550.1975892 --> 00:35:58,530.1975892 Groups hating each other and taking on the, role of the aggressor after they've been traumatized collectively. 318 00:35:59,220.1975892 --> 00:36:12,210.1975892 Um, yeah, so he's, he's someone that I, I, I feel very close with, uh, that I also studied in Uruguay, but barely heard mentioned in my training in New York. 319 00:36:12,900.1975892 --> 00:36:22,830.1975892 Um, last year, no, two years ago, um, there was a conference in Budapest for his hundred 50th birthday. 320 00:36:22,890.1975892 --> 00:36:24,900.1975892 And I went and I presented on. 321 00:36:26,325.1975892 --> 00:36:30,75.1975892 Xi how he's a critical psychologist and, and the connection between both. 322 00:36:30,255.1975892 --> 00:36:58,485.1975892 Um, and I got to meet wonderful people from all over the world, and we were remain connected and, and we keep thinking together about Xi in the present, uh, the importance of his work and how he was, um, ostracized by the analytic community, in part because he was questioning it and, and because he was more democratic, he truly believed that anyone could benefit from it if, if they wanted to. 323 00:36:59,25.1975892 --> 00:37:03,915.1975892 Uh, and that's something that Freud was not always, um, in agreement with. 324 00:37:05,400.1975892 --> 00:37:17,115.1975892 You the, the role of transference too, right? We know that initially Freud was like, no, what, what's this thing, Dora? You know, you know what, what is the thing of variety transference? No, no, no. 325 00:37:17,115.1975892 --> 00:37:18,495.1975892 And forensic embrace that. 326 00:37:18,750.1975892 --> 00:37:18,970.1975892 Yes. 327 00:37:19,995.1975892 --> 00:37:27,570.1975892 There's almost the, the rebellion, but also the embrace of the difficult things, the difficult things internally and externally too Yes, yes. 328 00:37:27,570.1975892 --> 00:37:38,70.1975892 And of course Zi, you know, he, he went to experimental, right? He tried mutual analysis, which failed miserably, where he would analyze the patient and the patient would analyze him. 329 00:37:38,880.1975892 --> 00:37:48,300.1975892 And even though it failed, I think it was an exercise of, you know, disturbing power dynamics and trying to make things a little bit more horizontal. 330 00:37:49,80.1975892 --> 00:37:52,560.1975892 And even though it failed, um, I think it came from a good place. 331 00:37:55,125.1975892 --> 00:38:01,910.1975892 You were mentioning geopolitical dynamics currently today and how, you know, all those years ago when you started. 332 00:38:03,150.1975892 --> 00:38:07,980.1975892 Working with people, uh, you, you were saying, whether it's patients, clients, it's a beautiful debate. 333 00:38:08,40.1975892 --> 00:38:14,280.1975892 And one term that's being used right now here in AA is users, well, it's, it's specifically of, of health systems. 334 00:38:14,425.1975892 --> 00:38:14,845.1975892 Mm-hmm. 335 00:38:15,105.1975892 --> 00:38:15,525.1975892 Mm-hmm. 336 00:38:15,600.1975892 --> 00:38:16,80.1975892 system. 337 00:38:17,490.1975892 --> 00:38:18,240.1975892 It's a nice one too. 338 00:38:18,570.1975892 --> 00:38:18,900.1975892 Yeah. 339 00:38:19,230.1975892 --> 00:38:19,530.1975892 Yeah. 340 00:38:19,530.1975892 --> 00:38:21,30.1975892 Or even consumer. 341 00:38:21,600.1975892 --> 00:38:25,260.1975892 oh, Do they use consume me though? I have not heard that one. 342 00:38:25,260.1975892 --> 00:38:26,970.1975892 I'm not sure how comfortable I am with that one. 343 00:38:27,300.1975892 --> 00:38:27,960.1975892 I don't like it. 344 00:38:28,320.1975892 --> 00:38:28,560.1975892 okay. 345 00:38:31,290.1975892 --> 00:38:47,10.1975892 I wonder what it's looked like in your clinic these days to receive people affected, directly or indirectly by the geopolitical situation currently in the states, specifically around immigration, but be obviously going beyond that too. 346 00:38:47,250.1975892 --> 00:38:54,180.1975892 What are you noticing in the clinic? Um, well, I, I think it depends on the population. 347 00:38:54,240.1975892 --> 00:38:58,680.1975892 I wanna separate from like immigrants and, and children of immigrants. 348 00:38:58,860.1975892 --> 00:39:14,220.1975892 And, uh, a lot of things that I hear from children of immigrants, people from cu children of Cubans, for example, it's like, well, why did my parents do all this hard work to bring their lives to the United States? And now I wanna leave. 349 00:39:14,220.1975892 --> 00:39:18,810.1975892 Like, why, why did, why did you do that? Why did you leave? And, and. 350 00:39:19,485.1975892 --> 00:39:38,775.1975892 And there's this desire of understanding more of history, the historical circumstances that led to their parents' immigration, and how sometimes the parents who experience a lot of the things that are happening now, dictatorships, violence, persecution, the parents are so traumatized that they don't wanna remember. 351 00:39:39,885.1975892 --> 00:39:47,25.1975892 They can't, they, they, they, they don't have what their children need to, to support themselves. 352 00:39:47,25.1975892 --> 00:39:55,665.1975892 Like, lemme rephrase it, but I, I don't wanna give any specific examples, um, to identify anyone accidentally. 353 00:39:55,665.1975892 --> 00:40:09,675.1975892 But this idea of, I wanna know more about my parents' story, where they were from, what they came to the United States to understand the current situation. 354 00:40:10,515.1975892 --> 00:40:10,935.1975892 Um. 355 00:40:11,595.1975892 --> 00:40:28,275.1975892 They don't have any answers because again, the parents are not able to, they, they can't, or, um, you know, a lot, I have a lot of, uh, adult kids of immigrants who are very conservative and who are anti other immigrants. 356 00:40:28,695.1975892 --> 00:40:29,115.1975892 Right. 357 00:40:29,655.1975892 --> 00:40:42,495.1975892 Um, and, and helping them navigate that dynamic and, and what, what happened, why were my parents? So, um, you know, open to different ideas and different people. 358 00:40:42,495.1975892 --> 00:40:49,725.1975892 And then they were traumatized in the US and then the, again, the, the pendulum swing to rejecting the other, identifying with the aggressor. 359 00:40:49,725.1975892 --> 00:41:07,575.1975892 So, uh, I've been having a lot of conversations around that and the ambivalence, like, okay, I'm mad at my parents for saying that, for supporting Trump or Bolsonaro or Malay, but I also understand why they may be compelled to do that. 360 00:41:08,910.1975892 --> 00:41:10,620.1975892 And what do I do with that? Right. 361 00:41:10,620.1975892 --> 00:41:13,620.1975892 It it's, it's very, very difficult conversation. 362 00:41:13,620.1975892 --> 00:41:15,60.1975892 It's very painful too. 363 00:41:15,860.1975892 --> 00:41:17,610.1975892 No clear answers either I'd No. 364 00:41:18,45.1975892 --> 00:41:38,760.1975892 with the piece you mentioned about, uh, you know, the, the, the, the child of immigrants observing in their parent this desire, at least erstwhile desire to fervently move to the states and be in this beacon, you know, this great, wonderful place and the feeling. 365 00:41:39,795.1975892 --> 00:41:44,955.1975892 Currently in 2025 that it's so far from that, that it's not this great, wonderful place. 366 00:41:44,955.1975892 --> 00:41:48,615.1975892 It, it creates a really just uncomfortable situation internally. 367 00:41:48,615.1975892 --> 00:41:50,985.1975892 And also def definitely in dialogue with parents. 368 00:41:51,405.1975892 --> 00:41:59,565.1975892 Uh, you know, I don't think this place is as wonderful as, as you do, or I'm not objectively seeing it to be a wonderful place. 369 00:41:59,815.1975892 --> 00:42:00,165.1975892 Right. 370 00:42:00,385.1975892 --> 00:42:03,750.1975892 But then the parents may respond and in many cases, rightfully so. 371 00:42:03,750.1975892 --> 00:42:04,845.1975892 But you don't know what I've been through. 372 00:42:05,700.1975892 --> 00:42:06,60.1975892 Right. 373 00:42:06,390.1975892 --> 00:42:09,180.1975892 I've been through Civil War, I've been sexually abused. 374 00:42:09,180.1975892 --> 00:42:12,960.1975892 I've been, you know, living in, in poverty, and now I'm not. 375 00:42:13,530.1975892 --> 00:42:19,740.1975892 So that, that's also important to see both sides of it and, and sit with that ambivalence. 376 00:42:20,490.1975892 --> 00:42:28,830.1975892 A part of me is angry at my parents for having brought me here or for having come here and another party is very grateful and understanding. 377 00:42:30,825.1975892 --> 00:42:36,855.1975892 You used the term dislocation recently to refer to part of what is occurring in, in, in these. 378 00:42:38,310.1975892 --> 00:42:40,320.1975892 In these dialogues, Mm-hmm. 379 00:42:40,590.1975892 --> 00:42:57,625.1975892 do, why do you choose that term and what does it refer to? Um, this location, uh, it was inspired by reading, uh, Greenberg and Greenberg, uh, who were an Enter Argentinian couple analyst they're like the, the first. 380 00:42:58,365.1975892 --> 00:43:04,935.1975892 Psych quantities that really talked about immigration per se, from a psychoanalytic, uh, perspective. 381 00:43:05,535.1975892 --> 00:43:21,885.1975892 And, um, one of the things that they said, how immigration, it's, it's inherently traumatic because it involves a, a loss of continuity. 382 00:43:22,965.1975892 --> 00:43:27,705.1975892 And, and in terms of what, I am not the same person I used to be. 383 00:43:27,705.1975892 --> 00:43:34,5.1975892 I'm not in the same place where I used to be either physically, emotionally, I'm dislocated. 384 00:43:34,425.1975892 --> 00:43:39,405.1975892 The location that I had, that gave me a sense of who I am, where I come from. 385 00:43:39,405.1975892 --> 00:43:41,925.1975892 It's interrupted in the process of immigration. 386 00:43:42,435.1975892 --> 00:43:46,875.1975892 So the person is not only dislocated geographically, but also mentally. 387 00:43:48,135.1975892 --> 00:44:06,165.1975892 The, the social world that that used to mirror back to me who I was, my language, my routine, everything that makes me feel located, tethered, embedded in the world is gone even under the most ideal immigration circumstances. 388 00:44:06,285.1975892 --> 00:44:06,735.1975892 Right. 389 00:44:07,395.1975892 --> 00:44:15,765.1975892 And that's something that also fascinates me, that among folks who, who have a lot of privileges either based on gender, race, social class. 390 00:44:18,0.1975892 --> 00:44:24,540.1975892 They never think about the struggles of immigration because, oh, I'm not undocumented, I'm white. 391 00:44:24,600.1975892 --> 00:44:27,30.1975892 I'm not worried, but the dislocation is still there. 392 00:44:28,885.1975892 --> 00:44:30,185.1975892 Um, it's a loss. 393 00:44:32,460.1975892 --> 00:44:45,570.1975892 A term that I used to sit with so much, so many years ago, and I don't identify with it as strongly now, but I remember how strong the attachment was to it those years ago. 394 00:44:45,570.1975892 --> 00:45:01,650.1975892 Was the word un ached to Yes, in the yes, yes, I, I, I see some, some, a resonance with the word dislocation yes, it's, and, and it's, and it has the ambivalence of it too. 395 00:45:01,770.1975892 --> 00:45:02,220.1975892 Right. 396 00:45:02,310.1975892 --> 00:45:02,670.1975892 Um. 397 00:45:03,510.1975892 --> 00:45:06,960.1975892 On the one hand what ship wants to be anchored forever. 398 00:45:07,565.1975892 --> 00:45:08,55.1975892 exactly. 399 00:45:08,100.1975892 --> 00:45:14,375.1975892 And On the other hand, what ship wants to never reach its destination Exactly, and, yes. 400 00:45:14,535.1975892 --> 00:45:23,725.1975892 that's a fascinating interplay of, ideas, right? That we belong and we don't belong at the same time. 401 00:45:23,895.1975892 --> 00:45:30,585.1975892 the same way that, you know, a ship cannot be constantly anchored or away at the same time. 402 00:45:31,985.1975892 --> 00:45:36,160.1975892 and one must be dislocated to relocate perhaps or you. 403 00:45:36,800.1975892 --> 00:45:42,645.1975892 could have been mislocated for a while yes, yes, yes, exactly. 404 00:45:42,735.1975892 --> 00:45:43,185.1975892 Yes. 405 00:45:44,700.1975892 --> 00:45:53,575.1975892 So one, one domain that we haven't talked a lot about yet, but you alluded to it earlier when you mentioned one of the forces that was. 406 00:45:54,960.1975892 --> 00:46:00,240.1975892 Uh, for you in, in, in childhood, and that's, and that's music. 407 00:46:00,570.1975892 --> 00:46:10,801.4497003 What, how did you first come to appreciate and find solace in that? I mean, from early on, I, I think I would be like probably three, four years old. 408 00:46:10,861.4497003 --> 00:46:18,841.4497003 I, I found myself so moved with music to, to the point of tears and I was so little that I wouldn't understand why I was so moved. 409 00:46:19,351.4497003 --> 00:46:19,981.4497003 But wait a second. 410 00:46:19,981.4497003 --> 00:46:20,881.4497003 I'm not sad. 411 00:46:20,881.4497003 --> 00:46:25,381.4497003 Why? Why am I crying? Um, and, and. 412 00:46:25,846.4497003 --> 00:46:26,596.4497003 I don't know. 413 00:46:26,866.4497003 --> 00:46:30,376.4497003 I, maybe I may have some musician ancestors, I don't know. 414 00:46:30,376.4497003 --> 00:46:33,796.4497003 But, but from very, very, very early on I was very sensitive. 415 00:46:33,796.4497003 --> 00:46:38,56.4497003 And it's not that I, I was raised by musicians or any of, of the people. 416 00:46:38,566.4497003 --> 00:46:42,466.4497003 Um, close to me growing up was nothing like that. 417 00:46:44,326.4497003 --> 00:46:57,316.4497003 I think I was so, um, so alone that music gave me a language to speak and to feel understood before I started school. 418 00:46:57,316.4497003 --> 00:47:02,836.4497003 And that's when I developed my, my social group, my chosen family of friends and, and teachers. 419 00:47:03,286.4497003 --> 00:47:08,806.4497003 Um, I think music was the first, well, the, the lullaby idea, right? The soothing element of it. 420 00:47:10,36.4497003 --> 00:47:13,66.4497003 Um, yeah. 421 00:47:13,846.4497003 --> 00:47:19,96.4497003 But also, I mean, the lyrics, um, actually. 422 00:47:19,741.4497003 --> 00:47:22,681.4497003 The reason why I, I, I learned English. 423 00:47:22,681.4497003 --> 00:47:24,181.4497003 I didn't learn English in the us. 424 00:47:24,181.4497003 --> 00:47:26,11.4497003 I already spoke English. 425 00:47:26,11.4497003 --> 00:47:32,551.4497003 I started, uh, at 12 in taking private classes because I wanted to know what the Beatles were singing. 426 00:47:34,656.4497003 --> 00:47:38,851.4497003 I was, I told my person I want, and my person, okay, you, we can take you to one class. 427 00:47:38,851.4497003 --> 00:47:41,881.4497003 You can choose, you know, ballet or this or that. 428 00:47:41,881.4497003 --> 00:47:49,81.4497003 I was like, I wanna speak English because I wanna, I wanna know what the Spice girls are, are singing. 429 00:47:49,81.4497003 --> 00:47:54,871.4497003 That that's where the, the Spice Girls were the, the, the, my favorite band as a teenager. 430 00:47:55,411.4497003 --> 00:48:02,551.4497003 And I remember being that incredibly empowering and, and, you know, uh, accessing a whole new world that opened up for me. 431 00:48:03,316.4497003 --> 00:48:11,446.4497003 To this day, you still have a lot of, you know, tight links with the music world, even Yes, of, of, of healing and therapy and psychology. 432 00:48:11,566.4497003 --> 00:48:17,326.4497003 You, you work with Tango and with protest songs, right? As in, in different ways. 433 00:48:17,821.4497003 --> 00:48:18,271.4497003 yes. 434 00:48:18,586.4497003 --> 00:48:32,881.4497003 did that relationship with Tango come from and what do you do with that Right now? Uh, well, as p is one of my favorite musicians ever again, he's one that even as an adult, it makes me cry of, you know, just so moving his music. 435 00:48:33,451.4497003 --> 00:48:37,441.4497003 And I think a big part of it is because it's immigration, um, history. 436 00:48:37,921.4497003 --> 00:48:50,341.4497003 There's some, um, melancholic sadness that it's so embedded in, um, in the, in, in Tango, right? Tango was created. 437 00:48:50,401.4497003 --> 00:48:59,821.4497003 I mean, not most Argentinians would, would cancel me for this, but tango was actually, you know, it came from African sleeves. 438 00:49:00,871.4497003 --> 00:49:02,281.4497003 Tango has black roots. 439 00:49:03,181.4497003 --> 00:49:10,411.4497003 Uh, and you know, one, one European did bring the Vanian to South America, and that's how Tango was implemented with the Vanian. 440 00:49:10,411.4497003 --> 00:49:11,371.4497003 But in reality. 441 00:49:12,421.4497003 --> 00:49:14,641.4497003 It is not a white European thing. 442 00:49:14,641.4497003 --> 00:49:20,101.4497003 It's actually brought from the nostalgia of the slaves that miss their home country. 443 00:49:20,101.4497003 --> 00:49:22,231.4497003 That's part of what fuel tango. 444 00:49:22,411.4497003 --> 00:49:28,501.4497003 So all that sadness turned into so much beauty and something that will connect people that make them dance. 445 00:49:29,11.4497003 --> 00:49:37,321.4497003 Uh, that's something that always fascinated me when I was in New York, missing ua, missing Argentina. 446 00:49:37,801.4497003 --> 00:49:43,351.4497003 Um, I, I, I got to tango as, as a, as a source of comfort. 447 00:49:43,711.4497003 --> 00:49:46,501.4497003 And then I, I approached the Tango community. 448 00:49:46,501.4497003 --> 00:49:58,51.4497003 I made a lot of friends in the Tango community, um, people that I could speak Spanish with, uh, something that I really missed and needed and share my passion for music. 449 00:49:58,681.4497003 --> 00:50:05,11.4497003 Um, some helped me, some asked me to collaborate either by, you know, lyrics or give me opinion. 450 00:50:05,11.4497003 --> 00:50:05,911.4497003 I'm a music nerd. 451 00:50:05,911.4497003 --> 00:50:06,451.4497003 I, I spent. 452 00:50:07,51.4497003 --> 00:50:12,871.4497003 Uh, a long time, uh, listening to music, collecting records, doing research around that. 453 00:50:13,831.4497003 --> 00:50:20,191.4497003 Um, so I think tango, it's the nostalgia of the immigrant, but also the, the dance part. 454 00:50:20,281.4497003 --> 00:50:26,251.4497003 And that's, that's what informed the, the event that it did at the New York Public Library, the healing power of Tango. 455 00:50:26,911.4497003 --> 00:50:30,661.4497003 I realized that Tango was very healing for me, uh, as an individual person. 456 00:50:30,721.4497003 --> 00:50:34,81.4497003 And then I started doing more research about what Tango can do for people. 457 00:50:35,131.4497003 --> 00:50:48,181.4497003 I met a few Tango teachers who were working in, um, health homes with the elderly and, and they shared wonderful stories about, um, the power of, of that in terms of connecting. 458 00:50:49,981.4497003 --> 00:51:00,661.4497003 And then I, I went to an event, I think it was someone presenting her, I think it was her master's thesis that is called Dancing with the Locusts. 459 00:51:01,426.4497003 --> 00:51:02,746.4497003 Dancing with the crazies. 460 00:51:03,286.4497003 --> 00:51:16,726.4497003 And it was, uh, a psychoanalyst who went to Argentina to study, um, how people in a psychiatric hospital had a tango workshop and how incredibly, um, healing it was for them. 461 00:51:17,746.4497003 --> 00:51:18,586.4497003 And then I started learning. 462 00:51:18,586.4497003 --> 00:51:36,226.4497003 I was like, what, what, what does people do? And you know, I, I try to study the different angles from which tango can be healing, not only in terms of the physical aspect, like balance and, you know, exercise, but also the language of the body. 463 00:51:36,286.4497003 --> 00:51:46,156.4497003 The embrace, right? The intimacy that tango involves dancing very closely with a person that might be a stranger, and then releasing that. 464 00:51:46,156.4497003 --> 00:51:55,126.4497003 So the in, in dynamics of intimacy, closeness, separation, very different from what life is in the United States. 465 00:51:55,126.4497003 --> 00:51:57,736.4497003 That, that really attracted me, that really seduced me. 466 00:51:58,471.4497003 --> 00:52:04,591.4497003 So I started doing interviews, talking to people, going to milonga, taking tango myself. 467 00:52:05,431.4497003 --> 00:52:24,931.4497003 And I thought, my God, this connects on so many points as an immigrant, as you know, someone who works with pain, with closeness, with, you know, and the dyadic element, the leader, the follower, uh, taking turns around that in a way I get, I get very passionate, as you can tell. 468 00:52:25,381.4497003 --> 00:52:28,861.4497003 Um, so I did an event in the New York Ary. 469 00:52:28,891.4497003 --> 00:52:30,151.4497003 A lot of people attended. 470 00:52:30,151.4497003 --> 00:52:33,811.4497003 I brought a, a professional tango dancing couple. 471 00:52:34,291.4497003 --> 00:52:40,591.4497003 So it was a mix of talking about tango, uh, and, uh, watching them dance. 472 00:52:40,651.4497003 --> 00:52:41,821.4497003 It was, it was beautiful. 473 00:52:42,676.4497003 --> 00:52:50,821.4497003 That is really beautiful and I liked your inclusion of how tango can be queered too, Yes, yes, yes, uh, disrupt that yes. 474 00:52:50,956.4497003 --> 00:52:53,671.4497003 and, and, and leader dynamic and turn it Absolutely. 475 00:52:53,971.4497003 --> 00:52:54,571.4497003 Absolutely. 476 00:52:54,601.4497003 --> 00:53:10,111.4497003 And another thing I wanna add in terms of my relationship with music, I, I had a lot of musician patients and also the Tango dancer patients, and they've been such a wonderful teachers in terms of letting me know how helpful it's been for them. 477 00:53:11,236.4497003 --> 00:53:24,916.4497003 What is a milonga in New York City like? I mean, I know what they're like here in, in Buenos Aires and they're breathtaking to, to watch and I've participated less than I've watched, but they are just surreal. 478 00:53:25,96.4497003 --> 00:53:27,811.4497003 What are they like in New York? Same, same. 479 00:53:27,841.4497003 --> 00:53:31,501.4497003 Uh, I mean, it, it, it talk about this location. 480 00:53:31,501.4497003 --> 00:53:37,81.4497003 Sometimes it feels like an like, am I in New York? Where am I? This, this just feels like out of a movie. 481 00:53:37,591.4497003 --> 00:53:38,731.4497003 There's a live band. 482 00:53:38,911.4497003 --> 00:53:41,911.4497003 Uh, there's, and there's people from all ages. 483 00:53:41,911.4497003 --> 00:53:44,281.4497003 You know, people say, oh, tan was some, I was the vehicles. 484 00:53:45,91.4497003 --> 00:53:46,141.4497003 Not, not really. 485 00:53:46,531.4497003 --> 00:53:52,21.4497003 Um, historically, yes, people say, oh, tango, that's what my grandmother listened to on the radio. 486 00:53:52,681.4497003 --> 00:53:59,71.4497003 But, um, I think it's, it's changing, um, the diversity of people. 487 00:53:59,71.4497003 --> 00:54:08,221.4497003 That's something beautiful that now that I'm Innu Hawaii, I miss, I haven't been to Mil here yet, but I'm not gonna find people from all over the world. 488 00:54:08,791.4497003 --> 00:54:15,301.4497003 I'm not gonna see a Japanese dancing with a German, uh, you know, we're only 3 million people. 489 00:54:15,301.4497003 --> 00:54:17,131.4497003 The diversity here is not the same. 490 00:54:17,221.4497003 --> 00:54:28,81.4497003 Um, I'm not, you know, or I don't know, peoples not speaking Spanish, but singing their songs perfectly because they love them so much. 491 00:54:29,311.4497003 --> 00:54:40,381.4497003 Um, something that can really, you know, get people together from all cultures and ages and, and walks of life in a time where the other person's presence can be so threatening. 492 00:54:41,401.4497003 --> 00:54:44,11.4497003 So the mil is one place where all of that goes away. 493 00:54:46,171.4497003 --> 00:54:48,46.4497003 And I feel that's magical, actually. 494 00:54:50,286.4497003 --> 00:54:50,576.4497003 Yeah. 495 00:54:50,816.4497003 --> 00:54:50,856.4497003 Re. 496 00:54:51,281.4497003 --> 00:54:54,521.4497003 Or your relationship or have a, have a corrective emotional experience. 497 00:54:54,641.4497003 --> 00:54:55,556.4497003 We could even Absolutely. 498 00:54:56,436.4497003 --> 00:54:56,796.4497003 Absolutely. 499 00:54:56,976.4497003 --> 00:54:57,196.4497003 Yes. 500 00:54:57,696.4497003 --> 00:54:57,916.4497003 Yes. 501 00:54:58,691.4497003 --> 00:55:06,641.4497003 one of the things that attracted me so much to the work that you're doing and to your person is the spirit that you seem to bring to, to your engagements. 502 00:55:06,641.4497003 --> 00:55:06,941.4497003 Right now. 503 00:55:06,941.4497003 --> 00:55:11,291.4497003 You're doing, uh, from, from my vantage point, it looks like you're doing a million things. 504 00:55:11,321.4497003 --> 00:55:20,141.4497003 And they sure seem to all have a, a central thread though, you know, and, and, um, a, a spirit animating them. 505 00:55:20,681.4497003 --> 00:55:21,166.4497003 One of Hmm. 506 00:55:21,371.4497003 --> 00:55:24,431.4497003 that we were talking about earlier is anger. 507 00:55:24,611.4497003 --> 00:55:32,356.4497003 And though you're smiling and though you're enthusiastic, I know that there's a lot of that in you too, from what we've been Absolutely. 508 00:55:32,981.4497003 --> 00:55:46,861.4497003 Um, where, where are you placing your anger these days and what did you mean earlier when you were saying that anger can be misplaced? Great question and, and I think it all ties together. 509 00:55:47,71.4497003 --> 00:55:59,491.4497003 You know, when you said spirit, um, one of the words that my teachers and students and supervisees have repeated over and over that keeps coming up in evaluations and comments and feedback is passion. 510 00:56:00,31.4497003 --> 00:56:03,31.4497003 Maria's so passionate, the way she talks, the way she works. 511 00:56:03,451.4497003 --> 00:56:05,341.4497003 And I, I think that is true. 512 00:56:05,791.4497003 --> 00:56:10,351.4497003 Um, and I do think that a big part of that passion is connected to anger and rage. 513 00:56:10,531.4497003 --> 00:56:23,941.4497003 Um, as someone that has been traumatized herself and work with traumatized people all the time, have seen firsthand how rage can be an, uh, and is an energy like, like electricity. 514 00:56:24,1.4497003 --> 00:56:33,451.4497003 And just like electricity, it can give us wonderful things like internet, but it can also cause fires and destruction and anger being demonized. 515 00:56:33,511.4497003 --> 00:56:35,71.4497003 It's a disservice to all of us. 516 00:56:36,61.4497003 --> 00:56:38,971.4497003 And I learned that early on. 517 00:56:39,511.4497003 --> 00:56:59,401.4497003 Um, and, you know, in learning about the, you know, civil rights movements in the US and here, how rage and anger was the fuel for social change, right? So harnessing that anger can be a catalyst for change, but if, if, if placed in the wrong way, it can be turned to the self. 518 00:57:00,331.4497003 --> 00:57:07,261.4497003 And that might look like self-hatred, internalized homophobia, internalized sexism, racism, you name it. 519 00:57:08,41.4497003 --> 00:57:12,901.4497003 Or it can be turned against the other and completely disavow from yourself. 520 00:57:14,156.4497003 --> 00:57:32,296.4497003 Um, and I think there's a third way where we don't have to put the anger in ourselves or others, but we can turn that into fuel to change things, right? I think anger, it's a part of us that, that, I mean, it has a biological function, right? And it's a part of us that that signals that an injustice has happened. 521 00:57:33,346.4497003 --> 00:57:40,186.4497003 Something shouldn't happen this way and that prompts us to, to move, to do something about it. 522 00:57:41,146.4497003 --> 00:57:48,436.4497003 And you know, I, I work a lot with, uh, survivors of sexual abuse who never could never get angry. 523 00:57:49,486.4497003 --> 00:57:53,176.4497003 Especially because sometimes the people who abuse them were people they loved. 524 00:57:53,746.4497003 --> 00:57:56,236.4497003 So what do they do with that anger? It's me, I'm bad. 525 00:57:57,706.4497003 --> 00:58:03,466.4497003 And again, that has catastrophic consequences for that child that grows up into an adult that thinks they're bad. 526 00:58:04,36.4497003 --> 00:58:04,486.4497003 Right. 527 00:58:05,146.4497003 --> 00:58:17,116.4497003 Um, because at the end of the day, if you grow up thinking that you're bad, you well, and if people, if you think that people expect you to be bad, you're gonna be bad because that's all expected from you. 528 00:58:17,116.4497003 --> 00:58:20,626.4497003 And, and you know, part of what I do in my work with people is to. 529 00:58:22,771.4497003 --> 00:58:28,861.4497003 Whenever they bring anger as something that they shouldn't be feeling, first of all, I, I ask them to get curious. 530 00:58:29,226.4497003 --> 00:58:32,431.4497003 Why, why do you think you're angry in the first place? Oh, no, it doesn't matter. 531 00:58:32,461.4497003 --> 00:58:33,361.4497003 I shouldn't be angry. 532 00:58:35,131.4497003 --> 00:58:36,271.4497003 Well, but you are. 533 00:58:37,861.4497003 --> 00:58:39,571.4497003 Why don't we talk about that instead? Right. 534 00:58:39,571.4497003 --> 00:58:43,381.4497003 And, and I feel like it's kind of a taboo in so many circles too. 535 00:58:43,711.4497003 --> 00:58:46,261.4497003 Um, and that's a problem. 536 00:58:46,321.4497003 --> 00:59:11,521.4497003 Like, for example, you know, parents angry at their kids, or, you know, we have WinCo talking about, you know, hating the crown of transference and moms sometimes hating their babies and it's like, oh, how can you hate your babies? Uh, well, we need to open up spaces for hatred, for anger, for all these tab debut iced emotions that, you know, can turn into actually something good. 537 00:59:13,156.4497003 --> 00:59:28,666.4497003 Uh, one of the, the songs that I wanted to, to bring to the Social Justice Learn Spanish thing, it's called LaMarca, the March of Rage that talks about the dictatorship and in Argentina. 538 00:59:28,996.4497003 --> 00:59:32,146.4497003 And you know, how people were angry that they couldn't be free. 539 00:59:33,676.4497003 --> 00:59:39,556.4497003 So I think that anger is, is what can prompt us if, if well used to, to get out of bad situations. 540 00:59:41,356.4497003 --> 00:59:43,576.4497003 Sounds like an invitation into passion too. 541 00:59:43,756.4497003 --> 00:59:44,506.4497003 I Yes. 542 00:59:45,16.4497003 --> 00:59:49,6.4497003 in any point that you'd say to someone, no, no, no, actually do get angry. 543 00:59:49,6.4497003 --> 00:59:52,756.4497003 Uh, in fact, right, right now, you know, let that, let that out. 544 00:59:53,356.4497003 --> 00:59:53,776.4497003 Yeah. 545 00:59:53,806.4497003 --> 00:59:55,846.4497003 passion is what emerges from that, right. 546 00:59:56,416.4497003 --> 00:59:56,956.4497003 Yes. 547 00:59:56,961.4497003 --> 01:00:05,56.4497003 Well, I mean, I, I think of, of Greta Thornberg, right? That, you know, when Trump said, oh, she's an angry woman, and she said, yeah, I am. 548 01:00:05,746.4497003 --> 01:00:08,806.4497003 And, and she took that with pride and I think that's a beautiful thing. 549 01:00:09,586.4497003 --> 01:00:11,176.4497003 Again, as long as you use it well. 550 01:00:13,231.4497003 --> 01:00:14,491.4497003 Just like fire, right. 551 01:00:14,491.4497003 --> 01:00:16,891.4497003 Fire can destroy or can create. 552 01:00:19,996.4497003 --> 01:00:22,306.4497003 Can destroy it can create. 553 01:00:23,956.4497003 --> 01:00:24,676.4497003 I'm gonna sit with that. 554 01:00:26,56.4497003 --> 01:00:28,861.4497003 Thank you so much for your time You're very welcome. 555 01:00:28,861.4497003 --> 01:00:30,271.4497003 Thank you for inviting me. 556 01:00:30,736.4497003 --> 01:00:32,236.4497003 It's a pleasure to talk with you. 557 01:00:32,266.4497003 --> 01:00:36,46.4497003 I think that there are more doors we can still yet open in the future. 558 01:00:36,376.4497003 --> 01:00:46,696.4497003 Um, but anyway, I'm, I'm really glad to, to connect with you just so, so, so nearby and, and, and so available for, for dialogue around so many important issues. 559 01:00:47,131.4497003 --> 01:00:47,581.4497003 Yes. 560 01:00:47,581.4497003 --> 01:00:55,561.4497003 And also I love the fact that, I mean, we're both, uh, Latinos speaking English, uh, hoping to, you know, reach other people. 561 01:00:55,561.4497003 --> 01:00:57,211.4497003 I mean, that, that's, that's fantastic. 562 01:00:57,391.4497003 --> 01:01:01,966.4497003 Talk about different ways of being and in Betweenness, Totally. 563 01:01:02,56.4497003 --> 01:01:02,356.4497003 Yes. 564 01:01:02,356.4497003 --> 01:01:04,816.4497003 I'm gonna stop myself 'cause I'm gonna open more doors. 565 01:01:07,771.4497003 --> 01:01:08,881.4497003 thank you so much. 566 01:01:16,575.0664183 --> 01:01:17,625.0664183 Thanks for being here. 567 01:01:18,195.0664183 --> 01:01:25,725.0664183 If this conversation resonated with you, consider reviewing therapy for the world or sharing the link with someone who might appreciate it. 568 01:01:26,385.0664183 --> 01:01:29,835.0664183 Until next time, speak with care and listen deeply.