Personal Essays, Collective Living, and the Political Potential of Storytelling

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
.9999999999there's a reason why we are all connecting.

(00:02):
And I think that's part of it.
.0000000001And I think that links back to my childhood where there was a reason why we were coming together. 4 00:00:08,190.0000000001 --> 00:00:11,580 We were coming together to change the ways we saw society.
We were coming together to smash patriarchy.
We were coming together to say, women have a voice.
You know, we were coming, you know, we had, we were idealistic, you know, we were young, but we were coming up against stuff.

(00:22):
And I'm seeing that now this amazing time where people are coming together and saying, you know, no, we don't wanna live in a fascist, you know, authoritarian country.
We don't want a king.
We do want our rights.
We do not want people just disappeared off the streets.
American citizens disappeared.
We don't wanna see our elected officials arrested because they wanna ask a question, you know, we don't wanna see.

(00:47):
So to me, that's coming together.
Um, not to escape, but to join, to join with a purpose in mind. 16 00:01:04,325.767669868 --> 00:01:11,675.767669868 Welcome to Therapy for the World, an interview series with people working across the spectrum of self-care and world care. 17 00:01:12,305.767669868 --> 00:01:24,935.767669868 I'm Dan Sikorski, a writing teacher and therapist, and the other voice you hear is Wendy Zeitlin, a college essay coach and tutor, former film producer and editor, published writer and mom. 18 00:01:25,805.767669868 --> 00:01:31,595.767669868 We recorded this on June 27th, 2025 at half past seven in the evening. 19 00:01:32,15.767669868 --> 00:01:32,970.767669868 Here's our conversation. 20 00:01:45,350.58010528 --> 00:01:54,140.58010528 One question that I have been wanting to start with for a while, and I'd love if this could be one of the first times we start with it, is about childhood. 21 00:01:54,830.58010528 --> 00:02:11,510.58010528 That can be a very formative time for many of us either pulling us towards something or away from something, and I'm wondering if you can pinpoint experiences, events, people, maybe something in your childhood that shapes the person you are today. 22 00:02:15,618.79513001 --> 00:02:16,518.79513001 a large family. 23 00:02:16,578.79513001 --> 00:02:34,398.79513001 There was five kids and I was the middle, and I was raised by two people who were narcissists and loved the idea of having children but didn't know what to do with us, and did not know how to love us, and did not know how to give us basic. 24 00:02:34,788.79513001 --> 00:02:36,288.79513001 Things that people need. 25 00:02:37,638.79513001 --> 00:02:43,98.79513001 um, was super formative to me because I had to look for mentors. 26 00:02:43,518.79513001 --> 00:02:48,168.79513001 I had to find other people to give me, to fill in the gaps. 27 00:02:49,158.79513001 --> 00:02:54,18.79513001 it also had obviously dramatic it on me as well. 28 00:02:54,378.79513001 --> 00:03:03,48.79513001 Um, but I think it's a lot of what has given me a sense of compassion empathy and caring for others. 29 00:03:03,48.79513001 --> 00:03:11,448.79513001 And at a very early age, when I was about nine, I saw my youngest younger sister my, how my mom had just abandoned her. 30 00:03:11,478.79513001 --> 00:03:13,68.79513001 And so I took over. 31 00:03:13,68.79513001 --> 00:03:14,328.79513001 I became the tooth fairy. 32 00:03:14,328.79513001 --> 00:03:18,738.79513001 I made her birthday cakes, I cooked dinners for my younger brother and sister. 33 00:03:18,738.79513001 --> 00:03:29,688.79513001 I stepped in because intuitively I knew that little people need this kind of consistency and backbone and love. 34 00:03:29,688.79513001 --> 00:03:36,153.79513001 Uh, And so I think that it took years for me to ever, I just did that. 35 00:03:36,153.79513001 --> 00:03:38,493.79513001 It took me years to ever put it all together. 36 00:03:38,613.79513001 --> 00:03:44,793.79513001 That that's where some of my compassion comes from and empathy comes from. 37 00:03:44,853.79513001 --> 00:03:52,443.79513001 I also knew that, um, I wanted to have a family, but I wanted to do it differently than my family. 38 00:03:52,683.79513001 --> 00:03:58,353.79513001 My family of origin did it, you know, and, I wanted to. 39 00:03:59,598.79513001 --> 00:04:03,978.79513001 a very different, and I wanted to be a different kind of person in the world than both my parents were. 40 00:04:04,128.79513001 --> 00:04:17,538.79513001 And that is not to say that they didn't give us, know, my mother was always taking us to anti-war demonstrations and we belonged to a synagogue in which both rabbis were conscientious objectors during the war. 41 00:04:17,538.79513001 --> 00:04:20,718.79513001 And they would bring guest speakers who spoke about political issues. 42 00:04:20,718.79513001 --> 00:04:24,258.79513001 So I was expo and I went to a very progressive high school. 43 00:04:24,258.79513001 --> 00:04:27,558.79513001 So I was exposed to all these really wonderful ideas. 44 00:04:27,978.79513001 --> 00:04:29,688.79513001 So it wasn't black and white. 45 00:04:29,838.79513001 --> 00:04:35,658.79513001 And that was really another formative experience is that life is really somewhere in the middle, in the grays. 46 00:04:35,913.79513001 --> 00:04:39,543.79513001 And that people have, people are complicated. 47 00:04:39,603.79513001 --> 00:05:07,653.79513001 They're not all of one thing or another people can have this, you know, my mother wasn't a very, you know, she was a, not a great mom, there was all these other things I got from being her kid, you know, this belief in social justice, this belief in being, speaking my voice politically in social activism in, um, take, you know, that's one of her legacies with me. 48 00:05:07,653.79513001 --> 00:05:12,573.79513001 My dad was an, uh, an amazing swimmer and I swim every single day of my life. 49 00:05:12,573.79513001 --> 00:05:15,3.79513001 And that was something I took from him. 50 00:05:15,33.79513001 --> 00:05:18,873.79513001 You know, he may not have been around very much, but I did get that. 51 00:05:18,873.79513001 --> 00:05:31,353.79513001 And that's a huge, also, every Monday night we went to the library and I'm an avid reader, you know, he put all five of us in the wagon without seat belts or flying around, and we go to the libraries and go, you know, and I learned. 52 00:05:32,73.79513001 --> 00:05:33,783.79513001 Dewey Decimal system on my own. 53 00:05:33,783.79513001 --> 00:05:41,493.79513001 I became a librarian, but I learned the Dey decimal system and I knew where I wanted to go and I figured out what books and every day, every Monday I'd come back with a stat. 54 00:05:41,733.79513001 --> 00:05:45,603.79513001 So there's things that, you know, nothing's all of one. 55 00:05:45,663.79513001 --> 00:05:49,203.79513001 Well, there are some things, but people are complicated. 56 00:05:49,263.79513001 --> 00:05:49,653.79513001 They're messy. 57 00:05:50,403.79513001 --> 00:06:05,223.79513001 And other thing that I I learned, I don't know that I knew that as a kid, but as I've gained more perspective on it, I think it's one of the things, lessons I learned just being alive on this earth, but through my family, you know, that I didn't have those lovely warm laps to sit in. 58 00:06:05,223.79513001 --> 00:06:17,133.79513001 But I did gain things from my parents as well and from my, you know, I'm close, closer with some of my siblings, but we all speak once a month together, the, you know, on Zooms. 59 00:06:17,133.79513001 --> 00:06:41,765.58010528 And, so, you know, there's a, people are complicated I think the final scene that that you shared with, uh, the, the being in the station wagon, all of you with your seat belts, unfastened, sort of, you know, bouncing around, but heading to the library is a great representation of all the parts of that, of that childhood, right? Maybe the, the lack of care on the one hand, but hey, you're heading into the library, so that at least. 60 00:06:44,213.79513001 --> 00:06:44,433.79513001 Yes. 61 00:06:45,615.58010528 --> 00:07:12,438.79513001 You mentioned mentors earlier on, can you point to someone who you sought out or who, who found you? I think that with mentors it can be both ways, right? Sometimes one seeks them out and other times the mentors sort of, um, inspire to help the person can, can you point to someone earlier on? was this amazing guy who really got me interested in math, I lived in Los Angeles, and we went to the beach. 62 00:07:12,438.79513001 --> 00:07:14,208.79513001 All we could ride our bikes to the beach. 63 00:07:14,208.79513001 --> 00:07:17,358.79513001 You know, we'd get on the beach and, and his name was Mr. 64 00:07:18,438.79513001 --> 00:07:19,98.79513001 Sp Spa. 65 00:07:19,153.79513001 --> 00:07:22,638.79513001 It was an Italian name at any rate, and it was the summertime and. 66 00:07:23,88.79513001 --> 00:07:32,28.79513001 There was a gay beach in Santa Monica and there was a, and I was with my closest friend Nancy, and we were walking and there he was with his partner. 67 00:07:32,778.79513001 --> 00:07:40,308.79513001 it was one of those moments of like, I, because I love this guy, I just, he really excited me about learning. 68 00:07:40,308.79513001 --> 00:07:56,178.79513001 He was a kind man and seeing him there, it was just one of those, like the sun broke out and you know, it was sort of like this wonderful moment of, and he was so kind and he introduced us to his partner and he was a mentor in multiple ways. 69 00:07:56,178.79513001 --> 00:08:01,338.79513001 He was a mentor educationally, you know, teaching me the love of learning, teaching me about math. 70 00:08:01,368.79513001 --> 00:08:03,498.79513001 'cause in fifth grade you get a little more complicated math. 71 00:08:03,558.79513001 --> 00:08:06,618.79513001 And also teaching me about acceptance and inclusivity. 72 00:08:07,458.79513001 --> 00:08:12,678.79513001 And, um, without ever using those words, there was also, teachers were often mentors for me. 73 00:08:12,678.79513001 --> 00:08:18,828.79513001 There was also one of my Sunday school teachers at Temple who was into drama and poetry. 74 00:08:20,178.79513001 --> 00:08:43,188.79513001 so he would come in and we weren't just learning about forms of Judaism, we were learning also about drama and poetry, and he would recite things and it was just, I felt so grown up, you know, learning these, hearing these poems, and that he took an interest in us as young people, as if we were you know, that we could think like adults. 75 00:08:43,608.79513001 --> 00:08:46,398.79513001 Um, so often teachers were mentors to me. 76 00:08:47,958.79513001 --> 00:08:53,898.79513001 and, um, probably later in life, like therapists were mentors to me. 77 00:08:53,988.79513001 --> 00:09:01,818.79513001 You know, therapists who helped me, reparent myself, you know, helped me reparent what I didn't get in my childhood. 78 00:09:02,298.79513001 --> 00:09:05,418.79513001 Um, and, and then I've had. 79 00:09:06,783.79513001 --> 00:09:12,513.79513001 in sort of my extended family, like a sister-in-law, um, who wa lived in Seattle. 80 00:09:12,513.79513001 --> 00:09:27,753.79513001 And, um, she and I would get on the phone and talk 'cause she was up early as I was, and we would have these long, and she was a therapist and we would have long conversations about books and life and therapy and all of that when I was going through, you know, my divorce and all of that. 81 00:09:27,753.79513001 --> 00:09:33,393.79513001 So, so she was another person who was a mentor to me. 82 00:09:33,513.79513001 --> 00:09:53,673.79513001 Um, and so I've had, and, and I learned that mentoring, when you come from such a dysfunctional family really is one of the routes out, is finding those other people to help you and, um, and also see in yourself things that you may not, you know, when you come from a family like I came from where there's. 83 00:09:54,48.79513001 --> 00:09:58,488.79513001 So much criticism, judgment, and that gets internalized in the self-doubt. 84 00:09:58,968.79513001 --> 00:10:03,858.79513001 Finding someone else who doesn't see that in you is, is sort of revelatory. 85 00:10:03,858.79513001 --> 00:10:14,178.79513001 It's like, really? You mean I'm not dumb? I mean, I'm not, you know, all the, the, the lines I had learned from my family, you know, were shifted for me. 86 00:10:14,268.79513001 --> 00:10:16,930.58010528 And, um, very beautiful. 87 00:10:17,658.79513001 --> 00:10:24,48.79513001 therapy, those kinds of situations and friends always, but less so, you know, friendship is something different. 88 00:10:24,108.79513001 --> 00:10:31,8.79513001 Friendship is less mentory than, um, certainly the other place where I found a mentor actually was when I was a filmmaker. 89 00:10:31,98.79513001 --> 00:10:32,418.79513001 There was a filmmaker. 90 00:10:33,303.79513001 --> 00:10:36,123.79513001 whom I had met when I was working on a feature film. 91 00:10:36,123.79513001 --> 00:10:40,83.79513001 And he was a social film, social documenta, social issue, documentarian. 92 00:10:40,263.79513001 --> 00:10:45,663.79513001 I had just finished graduate school in film and we were both working on Never Cry Wolf when there was a big flood. 93 00:10:45,663.79513001 --> 00:10:51,633.79513001 And went on to make the documentary, the Harvey Milk documentary about Harvey Milk. 94 00:10:51,663.79513001 --> 00:10:56,523.79513001 And I worked with him and Rob was definitely a mentor to me in many ways. 95 00:10:56,583.79513001 --> 00:11:08,13.79513001 Um, also because was brought into this com filmmaker community, the gay community in San Francisco, um, because he was sort of a big part of it. 96 00:11:08,73.79513001 --> 00:11:17,763.79513001 Um, but more than that, and it included in dinners and conversations and in the editing rooms and, but also in his vision. 97 00:11:17,823.79513001 --> 00:11:21,273.79513001 He has just such a lovely vision of the world. 98 00:11:21,723.79513001 --> 00:11:23,973.79513001 Um, and he. 99 00:11:24,828.79513001 --> 00:11:27,618.79513001 Included all of us in the conversations about that. 100 00:11:27,678.79513001 --> 00:11:30,18.79513001 And then also as a filmmaker, I learned a lot. 101 00:11:30,198.79513001 --> 00:11:35,688.79513001 You know, I was straight outta film school and I learned a lot working with him the group of people who worked on it. 102 00:11:35,688.79513001 --> 00:11:37,518.79513001 So he was definitely a mentor for me too. 103 00:11:37,518.79513001 --> 00:11:38,838.79513001 I, I'd forgotten about Rob. 104 00:11:38,838.79513001 --> 00:11:39,138.79513001 Yeah. 105 00:11:39,555.58010528 --> 00:11:43,940.58010528 There was a part where you were describing how you are reparented by others. 106 00:11:43,940.58010528 --> 00:11:45,740.58010528 Often we are often reparented by others. 107 00:11:45,740.58010528 --> 00:11:46,280.58010528 I thought that was. 108 00:11:46,565.58010528 --> 00:11:47,405.58010528 That was beautiful. 109 00:11:47,435.58010528 --> 00:11:52,265.58010528 It reminds me also of the concept of meeting, meeting other others, right. 110 00:11:52,265.58010528 --> 00:11:53,315.58010528 Other, other people. 111 00:11:53,405.58010528 --> 00:12:02,15.58010528 Often when we're kids, like our parents are our first other, they're the first experience we have with someone who is not ourselves, and we can gen, we often generalize from that experience. 112 00:12:02,15.58010528 --> 00:12:11,675.58010528 Like, okay, so I, I am regarded in X way by the outside world, and it's very difficult to, to break out of those, of those ways of being seen. 113 00:12:11,975.58010528 --> 00:12:20,135.58010528 Uh, early on, I I, from what I remember from our earlier conversations, you chose to live around many others in a pretty communal way. 114 00:12:20,555.58010528 --> 00:12:28,115.58010528 What, how did that decision arise? Uh, was that a typical thing to do at, at the time where you were, hear about that. 115 00:12:30,603.79513001 --> 00:12:44,673.79513001 left I moved to Santa Cruz, which is sort of a hotbed of collectivism, and social justice and political movements, which, which is why I moved there. 116 00:12:44,733.79513001 --> 00:12:52,983.79513001 And it was a, actually, when I was a teenager, um, I got really involved in the women's movement and part of it through my older sister part of it. 117 00:12:53,13.79513001 --> 00:12:58,713.79513001 'cause I lived a block from UCLA and there was all this amazing things happening on the campus and I could just bicycle over there. 118 00:13:00,3.79513001 --> 00:13:09,543.79513001 it, you know, I learned early on and I went to a very progressive school, high school we built geodesic domes in the desert as opposed to learning grammar. 119 00:13:09,963.79513001 --> 00:13:12,963.79513001 And, um, so I had this. 120 00:13:13,248.79513001 --> 00:13:31,638.79513001 I, I, it was in my DNA to have interest in it, but natural outgrowth was living outside of a nuclear family and creating an intentional community, whether it be a collective household, whether it be what I later in life was the, the intentional community. 121 00:13:32,658.79513001 --> 00:13:35,718.79513001 and so I was drawn to the idea of collective households. 122 00:13:35,748.79513001 --> 00:14:03,948.79513001 I loved the idea, I loved the idea of a roommate being engaged in the idea of building a community within our own homes, and then the larger social community of building a bigger community within the city of Santa Cruz and working on local political issues, um, whether it be school board, mayor, whatever it was, zoning issues around the, the coast, whatever the issues were anti, I was involved in the anti-apartheid movement in, uh, at uc, Santa Cruz at the time. 123 00:14:04,428.79513001 --> 00:14:07,818.79513001 Um, and so whatever that was, but also always having that. 124 00:14:09,183.79513001 --> 00:14:14,133.79513001 Um, family away from, you know, creating one's own family, as it were, through these collective households. 125 00:14:14,133.79513001 --> 00:14:23,163.79513001 And I love the collective household because the idea was we were breaking down barriers, you know, we were all equally responsible for the household. 126 00:14:23,163.79513001 --> 00:14:27,153.79513001 We were all equally responsible for one another's feelings as it were. 127 00:14:27,153.79513001 --> 00:14:30,603.79513001 You know, we've had a lot of that processing going on in the living rooms. 128 00:14:30,963.79513001 --> 00:14:44,73.79513001 Um, and um, and it was for me, a really important movement away from the nuclear family, which really had not been so, healthy for me as a young person. 129 00:14:44,283.79513001 --> 00:14:50,390.58010528 and, so that often the case with, with the folks who lived there, that they came from nuclear families that No. 130 00:14:54,333.79513001 --> 00:14:55,773.79513001 it was a financial decision. 131 00:14:55,803.79513001 --> 00:14:58,893.79513001 You know, we'd like the bigger the house, the less money it costs to pay your rent. 132 00:14:58,893.79513001 --> 00:15:00,573.79513001 And we were living off, you know, nothing. 133 00:15:00,663.79513001 --> 00:15:01,803.79513001 You know, we were students. 134 00:15:02,253.79513001 --> 00:15:02,883.79513001 Um. 135 00:15:03,888.79513001 --> 00:15:05,838.79513001 no, not that I remember that we talked about it. 136 00:15:05,868.79513001 --> 00:15:09,438.79513001 'cause I also think we were young, you know, we were like, what, 18, 19. 137 00:15:09,438.79513001 --> 00:15:14,538.79513001 So we weren't really, we were, we were, we weren't far enough away from it to have that perspective on family. 138 00:15:14,958.79513001 --> 00:15:16,968.79513001 You know, we didn't quite know what had hit us. 139 00:15:16,968.79513001 --> 00:15:20,300.58010528 A lot of us, it was kind of lived there for, for, for a long time. 140 00:15:20,300.58010528 --> 00:15:20,480.58010528 Right. 141 00:15:20,480.58010528 --> 00:15:22,250.58010528 Beyond those early years. 142 00:15:25,908.79513001 --> 00:15:27,768.79513001 Cruz, you know, for a little break. 143 00:15:27,768.79513001 --> 00:15:32,88.79513001 Then just with, with one partner, my boyfriend down in, in Venice Beach, California. 144 00:15:32,88.79513001 --> 00:15:34,848.79513001 And then, you know, we moved back to other ones. 145 00:15:34,848.79513001 --> 00:15:47,268.79513001 But then the intentional community that I built in Santa, in San Francisco something slightly different based on the same concept of, you know, uh, we each, we, we bought a building. 146 00:15:47,748.79513001 --> 00:15:49,338.79513001 There were seven units in the building. 147 00:15:49,338.79513001 --> 00:15:52,248.79513001 We all, we prorated them based on where they were. 148 00:15:52,248.79513001 --> 00:15:55,8.79513001 'cause it was an Edwardian, so some were better than a little bit others. 149 00:15:55,428.79513001 --> 00:15:59,898.79513001 But the idea behind it was not only was it made it possible for those of us to. 150 00:16:00,228.79513001 --> 00:16:14,718.79513001 Start owning property, but also the idea of working together to form a community, you know, of writers, editor, filmmakers, workers, librarians, people who shared politics and interests. 151 00:16:14,748.79513001 --> 00:16:30,948.79513001 And, um, and the idea of, um, again, creating a, a community that was separate, you know, that community didn't have to be a partnership, just two people in a partnership, that we were broadening out what it meant. 152 00:16:30,948.79513001 --> 00:16:38,538.79513001 It didn't mean that people within the building weren't in partnership with others, many of us were, it was broadening it out. 153 00:16:38,598.79513001 --> 00:16:43,128.79513 And even when lasted for quite a long time, and even when. 154 00:16:44,253.79513 --> 00:16:49,143.79513 I left that because I've gotten married and I was pregnant and we moved to Marin. 155 00:16:49,203.79513 --> 00:16:52,53.79513 We were looking to form another intentional community up here. 156 00:16:52,53.79513 --> 00:16:53,823.79513 We, the property was just too expensive. 157 00:16:54,183.79513 --> 00:17:01,323.79513 Um, and I ended up in a more nuclear, in a very nuclear family situation, but always with community, you know, community through other things. 158 00:17:01,323.79513 --> 00:17:12,3.79513 Whether it was through preschool, whether it was through, you know, people I'd met through my son's activities or through my then husband's, you know, he was a school teacher through, you know, people like that. 159 00:17:12,3.79513 --> 00:17:29,150.5801053 So with the idea of community What did that look like for, for instance, when it was still living with a nuclear family? And when you came into those communities, was there already an intentional or maybe, uh, if, if it's not nuclear, it's, you know, uh, broader. 160 00:17:29,150.5801053 --> 00:17:31,70.5801053 I think you used extended community. 161 00:17:31,580.5801053 --> 00:17:35,330.5801053 Was that already existing and you, you, you all inserted yourself into it. 162 00:17:35,330.5801053 --> 00:17:42,933.79513 Did it take some active work on y on y'all's part? San Francisco, we created. 163 00:17:43,220.5801053 --> 00:17:46,190.5801053 I meant that later when you guys lived more, more in like a nuclear family. 164 00:17:46,190.5801053 --> 00:17:46,460.5801053 Right. 165 00:17:46,618.79513 --> 00:17:54,543.79513 we were we met someone with a little boy Zach's age, who was six, they were six months at the time. 166 00:17:54,603.79513 --> 00:17:59,883.79513 And we started talking about where we had come from and they turned out to be like-minded political, I don't remember how we met them. 167 00:17:59,883.79513 --> 00:18:05,823.79513 And they, they said, oh, well, we're a part of a group that's thinking about buying property and building. 168 00:18:05,823.79513 --> 00:18:07,173.79513 And I was like, we are in. 169 00:18:07,233.79513 --> 00:18:13,443.79513 And so we went for months looking at properties and meeting people and having meetings and thinking about it. 170 00:18:13,833.79513 --> 00:18:17,703.79513 The reason it never came about was property in Marin is just too expensive. 171 00:18:17,703.79513 --> 00:18:20,43.79513 And there were zoning issues around that. 172 00:18:20,253.79513 --> 00:18:22,623.79513 It would change today because people are now into infilling. 173 00:18:22,653.79513 --> 00:18:25,263.79513 But in those days there was a lot of density. 174 00:18:25,413.79513 --> 00:18:28,143.79513 You know, people did not want high density housing. 175 00:18:28,173.79513 --> 00:18:34,23.79513 And that would have been high density housing because there would've been multiple houses with a common house on one piece of land. 176 00:18:34,23.79513 --> 00:18:41,313.79513 And we would've had to fight some of the, uh, you know, other that exist in Marin County. 177 00:18:41,673.79513 --> 00:18:43,683.79513 But it was, um. 178 00:18:44,88.79513 --> 00:18:45,588.79513 You know, it was always on my mind. 179 00:18:45,588.79513 --> 00:18:49,878.79513 And then I started getting interested in the history of intentional communities, which have been around forever. 180 00:18:49,938.79513 --> 00:19:01,608.79513 You know, people in, you know, the Alcott father was, and Thoreau and, and, um, uh, who's the other one, you know, who wrote not Walden? Yeah. 181 00:19:02,358.79513 --> 00:19:07,548.79513 What, who am I thinking of? Um, but they were all a part of an intentional, yeah. 182 00:19:07,578.79513 --> 00:19:07,998.79513 Yes. 183 00:19:08,28.79513 --> 00:19:16,98.79513 They were all part of trying to create an intentional, vegetarian intentional community up in the area, you know, up in the northeast there. 184 00:19:16,188.79513 --> 00:19:17,358.79513 And they believed in it. 185 00:19:17,358.79513 --> 00:19:21,198.79513 There were, there've been many intentional communities through America's history. 186 00:19:21,648.79513 --> 00:19:25,818.79513 Um, so I started looking into it and looking into the, the, um. 187 00:19:26,658.79513 --> 00:19:26,838.79513 of it. 188 00:19:26,838.79513 --> 00:19:50,598.79513 It's fascinating to me because it, to me, it makes so much sense where you pool resources, you pool emotional resources, you pool financial resources, you have the privacy of your own space with the, the loveliness of a collective space, the ability to come together for meals, for conversations, as well as the ability to have that, you know, I need time to read my book or I need time to, you know, whatever. 189 00:19:50,628.79513 --> 00:20:02,568.79513 Um, but it is something that, and I've, I've looked at, I know in England they have, um, intentional communities for older people, primarily older women because women often outlive men. 190 00:20:03,918.79513 --> 00:20:15,768.79513 you know, watching these women in their seventies and eighties who are giddy with loving, living in these situations where they have their own space, but they come together, they provide. 191 00:20:16,488.79513 --> 00:20:17,568.79513 Companionship. 192 00:20:17,568.79513 --> 00:20:21,138.79513 They provide all kinds of things that come from community. 193 00:20:21,138.79513 --> 00:20:32,718.79513 And I think it's one of the problems with the, I don't know if it's just American, but the model of the nuclear family is that it limits our exposure to other people, other adults. 194 00:20:32,958.79513 --> 00:20:44,628.79513 Now, having said are many missteps in the seventies and sixties and seventies with collectives where kids were left to run wild on the streets of the Haight Ashbury. 195 00:20:44,628.79513 --> 00:20:49,308.79513 And these poor kids have grown up without direction looking for desperate. 196 00:20:49,308.79513 --> 00:20:51,498.79513 And I've seen many of those stories as well. 197 00:20:51,558.79513 --> 00:20:55,728.79513 And so I don't mean to idealize it or make it sound utopian. 198 00:20:55,728.79513 --> 00:21:07,998.79513 It has to be thoughtful and it, and, and it's not just an opportunity to renege on one's responsibilities if you're a parent or to renege on responsibilities as a partner. 199 00:21:08,448.79513 --> 00:21:09,438.79513 Um, I'm. 200 00:21:10,233.79513 --> 00:21:15,903.79513 Although in my youth, I sort of was briefly thinking, oh, smash monogamy. 201 00:21:15,963.79513 --> 00:21:17,763.79513 I'm not a non-monogamous person. 202 00:21:17,763.79513 --> 00:21:19,263.79513 It turns out not me. 203 00:21:19,743.79513 --> 00:21:45,903.79513 And I find it to be really, um, potentially dangerous to people's emotions, you know, in terms of the, the ideology works, but then the practicality doesn't, you know, and that, um, so I think about intentional communities, I think they take a lot of care and that it's like a garden, you know, otherwise those weeds that the invasive plants will take over. 204 00:21:45,933.79513 --> 00:21:50,163.79513 And so, you know, yes, there were many experiments that really didn't work. 205 00:21:50,223.79513 --> 00:21:54,93.79513 And certainly I am not a fan of cults or those kinds of things at all. 206 00:21:54,423.79513 --> 00:21:58,653.79513 Um, because that feels to me like lost people looking for a place. 207 00:21:58,653.79513 --> 00:22:00,33.79513 This is something different to me. 208 00:22:00,890.5801053 --> 00:22:11,763.79513 If it's not lost, people looking for a place, what? What other tagline would we use for it? The communities are really based upon that. 209 00:22:11,943.79513 --> 00:22:18,813.79513 They strengthen everybody through everybody's strength opposed to a person, you know, following a person. 210 00:22:18,933.79513 --> 00:22:20,403.79513 'cause cults follow a person. 211 00:22:20,793.79513 --> 00:22:31,983.79513 This is really, you know, people coming together, sharing their skills, their interests, their um, emotional intelligence, their whatever it is. 212 00:22:31,983.79513 --> 00:22:37,383.79513 It just in much the same way, like when you have a good friend, that there's so much we gain from that friendship. 213 00:22:37,473.79513 --> 00:22:43,563.79513 You know, like they may have a different perspective on the world or they may bring a book to the next walk and say, God, you gotta read this. 214 00:22:43,563.79513 --> 00:22:48,753.79513 Or they may tell you about this amazing dish they made last night, you know, the way that we do. 215 00:22:48,993.79513 --> 00:23:01,563.79513 So it's just sort of a slightly bigger, you know, but with the same care and kindness that goes into nurturing friendships or partnerships or parent children relationships, um, just on a slightly bigger level. 216 00:23:01,563.79513 --> 00:23:03,963.79513 But it takes the same kind of work, otherwise they don't work. 217 00:23:04,585.5801053 --> 00:23:12,470.5801053 You spoke about the history of these communities, which I imagine must be fascinating and it makes sense to me that they have existed. 218 00:23:12,995.5801053 --> 00:23:13,535.5801053 Forever. 219 00:23:13,955.5801053 --> 00:23:18,455.5801053 I wonder what the current, you know, what the actuality of these communities is. 220 00:23:18,455.5801053 --> 00:23:29,285.5801053 I, I hear often, you know, folks maybe in my generation speak about wanting to join such communities, and I, and I certainly see some examples here and there, but maybe, maybe I don't know enough examples. 221 00:23:29,285.5801053 --> 00:23:32,495.5801053 Maybe I'm a pessimist, maybe I haven't, you know, found them yet. 222 00:23:32,525.5801053 --> 00:23:37,595.5801053 But it seems to me like there's a, a bit of a scarcity of, of that type of living these days. 223 00:23:37,595.5801053 --> 00:23:44,555.5801053 I don't know if, if, if you're aware of, of the state of things right now, and I wonder what factors, if it's true that, that there is a scarcity. 224 00:23:44,555.5801053 --> 00:23:52,655.5801053 What factors lead to that? Uh, which, and certainly those factors, if they are there, were there, uh, so many years ago when you were trying to form these communities. 225 00:23:52,655.5801053 --> 00:24:01,263.79513 I wonder what's changed now? these now, and I think that that society's changed a lot. 226 00:24:01,443.79513 --> 00:24:06,843.79513 I mean, when I, I was, I grew up in a time there was a sense of hope. 227 00:24:07,863.79513 --> 00:24:10,923.79513 I think that there was a sense of our voice mattering. 228 00:24:10,953.79513 --> 00:24:15,183.79513 You know, like the anti-war move, the anti-Vietnam war movement made a difference. 229 00:24:15,603.79513 --> 00:24:19,323.79513 Uh, I was quite young then, but, but I later in life saw it. 230 00:24:19,323.79513 --> 00:24:28,773.79513 You know, Watergate was like, I was still young when that happened, but I understood that it made a difference, you know, that people could speak out and make a difference. 231 00:24:28,833.79513 --> 00:24:33,183.79513 And I don't think that we live, we live in an atomized society right now. 232 00:24:33,213.79513 --> 00:24:34,503.79513 People are isolated. 233 00:24:34,503.79513 --> 00:24:37,533.79513 I think that we don't have much civil discourse right now. 234 00:24:37,533.79513 --> 00:24:48,123.79513 I think that, there is a lot, the old American mythos has really pronounced itself of the individual against society. 235 00:24:48,123.79513 --> 00:24:52,203.79513 You know, when you do the five conflicts individual against society, we are in that right now. 236 00:24:52,593.79513 --> 00:24:55,143.79513 And I think that, um. 237 00:24:55,533.79513 --> 00:25:10,773.79513 We live in a time where, because there's a feeling of scarcity, whether it's, you know, white men feeling like they're gonna get booted out of this, you know, the replacement theory crap that's going on, or whether it's, you know, wanting to, you know, there's the, the tenor. 238 00:25:11,403.79513 --> 00:25:15,513.79513 I mean, one, we're very divided society, but there is a very loud voice. 239 00:25:15,513.79513 --> 00:25:26,253.79513 I don't know that it's popular, but there is a loud voice that wants to take away people's rights, that wants to, um, I mean to, to an extreme. 240 00:25:26,583.79513 --> 00:25:29,343.79513 E extent, it's shocking to me. 241 00:25:29,523.79513 --> 00:25:33,933.79513 And, um, American individualism is just on the rise. 242 00:25:33,933.79513 --> 00:25:39,33.79513 The anti, the misogyny, the xenophobia, the racism is just intense. 243 00:25:39,93.79513 --> 00:25:45,783.79513 And so I don't think that we're living in a time where people are feeling there's a fear. 244 00:25:45,843.79513 --> 00:25:48,123.79513 It also establishes a lot of fear. 245 00:25:48,123.79513 --> 00:26:11,583.79513 I mean, when you see this amazing young man who wins the New York primary, who's just incredible, people within the Democratic party distancing themselves from him for fear of being called a socialist or being, it just makes me so sad because that to me is fear based upon a fear of losing power or a fear of trying something new. 246 00:26:11,583.79513 --> 00:26:20,583.79513 I lived in a time when we experimented, we tried things, and I don't see that isn't around now. 247 00:26:20,613.79513 --> 00:26:25,653.79513 There isn't a sense of experimentation or trying things or testing the boundaries. 248 00:26:26,658.79513 --> 00:26:36,138.79513 also, you know, I also grew, grew up in a time where it was pre-Roe v Wade, and then when that happened, it was this unbelievable liberation. 249 00:26:37,638.79513 --> 00:26:48,48.79513 then now in my lifetime, it being taken away and women's bodily autonomy being taken away, to me it feels like there's a clamping down. 250 00:26:48,168.79513 --> 00:26:59,418.79513 And so that doesn't, I think it's so social and political and contextual why people aren't feeling safe to, you know, pull pool their resources and come together. 251 00:26:59,418.79513 --> 00:27:04,428.79513 'cause I don't think that there's, we're not building trust societally. 252 00:27:04,428.79513 --> 00:27:07,428.79513 And so I think that that's part of it to me. 253 00:27:07,458.79513 --> 00:27:11,958.79513 Why? Um, and yeah, I think that's part of it. 254 00:27:11,958.79513 --> 00:27:13,788.79513 I mean, I think that you'll see pockets of it. 255 00:27:13,788.79513 --> 00:27:19,128.79513 Like, you'll see it more like in neighborhoods where there's community gardens and that's lovely. 256 00:27:19,128.79513 --> 00:27:24,678.79513 You know, where people will come together around a community garden or commun, you know, like in your. 257 00:27:24,918.79513 --> 00:27:26,898.79513 Uh, college essay coaching. 258 00:27:26,898.79513 --> 00:27:31,278.79513 You'll hear of kids who are doing community-based projects, you know, and that's lovely. 259 00:27:31,308.79513 --> 00:27:33,678.79513 You know, it's, it has that sense of hope. 260 00:27:33,678.79513 --> 00:27:42,48.79513 It has that sense of reaching out and building in spite of, you know, the concrete being poured on the garden, you know, or the weeds taking over. 261 00:27:42,48.79513 --> 00:27:45,168.79513 There's still little weeds popping up, you know, between the cracks. 262 00:27:45,498.79513 --> 00:27:53,658.79513 And, you know, Yeah, believe that it's part of the human spirit, and I think it's gonna I just think right now is a really hard time. 263 00:27:53,658.79513 --> 00:27:58,218.79513 You know, we're really fighting just to keep our head above water a little bit right now. 264 00:27:58,640.5801053 --> 00:28:09,260.5801053 I fight with myself sometimes around this concept of is small isolated communities of, of do-gooders and of folks who want to get together and create alternatives. 265 00:28:09,405.5801053 --> 00:28:14,690.5801053 I, I, I'm speaking perhaps primarily of the modern variant of those types of communities. 266 00:28:14,690.5801053 --> 00:28:21,590.5801053 I think that you're right in that there, there, there is something substantially different in the ethos of those communities back then versus now. 267 00:28:21,950.5801053 --> 00:28:29,300.5801053 I, I fight with myself because I can't finish deciding if they are escapist these communities or if they are, I. 268 00:28:29,645.5801053 --> 00:28:32,915.5801053 Offering alternatives, um, in the night, you know, stars in the night. 269 00:28:33,490.5801053 --> 00:28:35,525.5801053 I, I, I don't, I don't know the answer to that. 270 00:28:35,525.5801053 --> 00:28:36,695.5801053 I think there's a bit of both. 271 00:28:36,755.5801053 --> 00:28:52,835.5801053 I think that when, when they do isolate themselves and, and, um, to put it bluntly, not give a damn about the outside world then and, and not pretend to expand their, their, their energy, their vibe out, out into the world around, then maybe they become a problem. 272 00:28:53,405.5801053 --> 00:28:58,295.5801053 But not when they, when they do hope to extend that outwards. 273 00:29:02,103.79513 --> 00:29:03,123.79513 it happen a little bit. 274 00:29:03,123.79513 --> 00:29:05,913.79513 It's not like building community, but I see it in the. 275 00:29:06,918.79513 --> 00:29:09,138.79513 protests that are happening right now in the United States. 276 00:29:09,498.79513 --> 00:29:13,308.79513 You know, the no Kings one? I went, I, I was debating which one do I go to. 277 00:29:13,308.79513 --> 00:29:19,158.79513 There's this beautiful one in San Francisco where they build those human banners on the beach, you know, that get worldwide attention. 278 00:29:19,158.79513 --> 00:29:20,538.79513 And I thought, oh, I wanna be a part of that. 279 00:29:20,598.79513 --> 00:29:26,238.79513 And, but they were having a local one in my, literally, I could walk to it and I thought, I'm taking the dog, I'm walking to it. 280 00:29:26,238.79513 --> 00:29:34,488.79513 And it was lovely because I saw old neighbors, I saw friends, I met a woman I'd never known and we're exchanging book ideas over the thing. 281 00:29:34,488.79513 --> 00:29:36,768.79513 And, you know, whether or not she becomes a friend, I don't know. 282 00:29:36,768.79513 --> 00:29:38,538.79513 But it made me feel like I could. 283 00:29:39,258.79513 --> 00:29:47,538.79513 Feel a part of my community as opposed to feeling like, and, and it made it, you know, it, all of those every day make a difference. 284 00:29:47,568.79513 --> 00:29:54,978.79513 And so, and those to me are not escapists because we are addressing the issues we're seeing in the world. 285 00:29:55,398.79513 --> 00:30:05,988.79513 And it is really hopeful to me to see not just the like hands off or, or no kinks, but to see every single day people are out in their communities protesting. 286 00:30:05,988.79513 --> 00:30:12,168.79513 Whether it's protesting ice, a particular incident in their community, whether it's, you know, or you know, they're still doing it. 287 00:30:12,168.79513 --> 00:30:16,758.79513 But the Tesla protest or the, and people are really clever and smart. 288 00:30:16,818.79513 --> 00:30:18,408.79513 I mean, some of their signs are just. 289 00:30:19,68.79513 --> 00:30:29,58.79513 Lovely and funny and, and I feel more connected when I go to those, you know, than if I'm just at home writing postcards or, you know, calling. 290 00:30:29,58.79513 --> 00:30:34,398.79513 I mean, I do all of it, but I feel more connected when I'm with people in the streets, um, peacefully. 291 00:30:34,788.79513 --> 00:30:45,528.79513 And that gives me a sense of hope, because I also feel like that's the only way, especially after the Supreme Court today ruled, you know, like, uh, the executive has all the, we're living in a. 292 00:30:46,333.79513 --> 00:30:47,443.79513 just a monarchy anymore. 293 00:30:47,803.79513 --> 00:30:51,343.79513 Um, but, you know, that gives me hope. 294 00:30:51,343.79513 --> 00:30:52,993.79513 And I don't feel like they're escapists. 295 00:30:52,993.79513 --> 00:30:56,413.79513 I feel like there's, because there's a reason why we are all connecting. 296 00:30:56,563.79513 --> 00:30:57,793.79513 And I think that's part of it. 297 00:30:57,793.79513 --> 00:31:02,473.79513 And I think that links back to my childhood where there was a reason why we were coming together. 298 00:31:02,473.79513 --> 00:31:05,863.79513 We were coming together to change the ways we saw society. 299 00:31:06,73.79513 --> 00:31:08,443.79513 We were coming together to smash patriarchy. 300 00:31:08,443.79513 --> 00:31:11,503.79513 We were coming together to say, women have a voice. 301 00:31:11,503.79513 --> 00:31:17,203.79513 You know, we were coming, you know, we had, we were idealistic, you know, we were young, but we were coming up against stuff. 302 00:31:17,203.79513 --> 00:31:28,753.79513 And I'm seeing that now this amazing time where people are coming together and saying, you know, no, we don't wanna live in a fascist, you know, authoritarian country. 303 00:31:28,753.79513 --> 00:31:29,893.79513 We don't want a king. 304 00:31:30,163.79513 --> 00:31:31,453.79513 We do want our rights. 305 00:31:31,453.79513 --> 00:31:34,873.79513 We do not want people just disappeared off the streets. 306 00:31:34,873.79513 --> 00:31:36,373.79513 American citizens disappeared. 307 00:31:36,373.79513 --> 00:31:42,103.79513 We don't wanna see our elected officials arrested because they wanna ask a question, you know, we don't wanna see. 308 00:31:42,103.79513 --> 00:31:44,353.79513 So to me, that's coming together. 309 00:31:45,318.79513 --> 00:31:50,148.79513 Um, not to escape, but to join, to join with a purpose in mind. 310 00:31:50,238.79513 --> 00:31:58,578.79513 Um, and then out of that will probably blossom friendships and things that come from it, because it's like mind, they're like-minded as well. 311 00:31:58,578.79513 --> 00:32:14,328.79513 Not that one always has to surround oneself around like-minded people, but you know, we, we tend to, you know, like, you know, why we're drawn to the work we do tends to be, you know, or why we're drawn to cgs, they're like-minded in their approach. 312 00:32:14,688.79513 --> 00:32:22,548.79513 Um, as opposed to, you know, I've talked to other people who do the same work we do and they say, work for an organization that's just all about profit. 313 00:32:22,548.79513 --> 00:32:25,68.79513 They don't give us any, you know, professional development or whatever. 314 00:32:25,68.79513 --> 00:32:29,765.5801053 And, you know, it's like, yeah, I wouldn't wanna do that, you know? Totally, Um, totally. 315 00:32:29,765.5801053 --> 00:32:44,735.5801053 I, I think that there's a, a, an inkling in what you're sharing of, of, of belief that I've found a lot of solace in the belief is that on the one hand, harboring a certain hopelessness around things actually changing. 316 00:32:44,735.5801053 --> 00:32:56,675.5801053 And I, I've heard this from climate activists, I've heard this from, uh, folks who have been waging, waging the fight for their whole lives and now express a certain hopelessness around things that were changing in this lifetime. 317 00:32:57,485.5801053 --> 00:33:00,455.5801053 But that's not the reason why they fight, why they work. 318 00:33:00,965.5801053 --> 00:33:03,425.5801053 The reason is because they can't imagine not doing so, right. 319 00:33:03,425.5801053 --> 00:33:08,525.5801053 They can't imagine living this life without a sort of intention or, or forward direction. 320 00:33:09,50.5801053 --> 00:33:16,370.5801053 Where, where championing causes is part of that daily life, and we're meeting folks who, who champion those causes is part of their daily life too. 321 00:33:16,610.5801053 --> 00:33:20,240.5801053 You've been, you've been alluding to the work We Do, and I would love to talk about that with you. 322 00:33:20,300.5801053 --> 00:33:25,340.5801053 Uh, you, you talked about being in the film industry, I know that that was a big first part of your career. 323 00:33:25,610.5801053 --> 00:33:38,313.79513 Uh, how did you get there? Why did you leave and how did you get into personal essay coaching? in psychology the new school. 324 00:33:38,313.79513 --> 00:33:41,733.79513 I guess it was, it was an alternative school, it wasn't a four year institution. 325 00:33:41,733.79513 --> 00:33:43,503.79513 And I did about a year of it. 326 00:33:43,508.79513 --> 00:33:49,83.79513 And I was drawn to psychology because of my own childhood trauma, you know, and I thought this was gonna be something. 327 00:33:49,83.79513 --> 00:33:52,923.79513 And I did a year of it was like, Nope, this is not for me. 328 00:33:52,983.79513 --> 00:33:55,473.79513 I don't wanna spend my time thinking about this. 329 00:33:55,533.79513 --> 00:33:59,733.79513 And so, I, my then partner and I moved up to Berkeley. 330 00:33:59,793.79513 --> 00:34:06,573.79513 He was doing journalism and I was gonna go to, wasn't sure I was doing photography at the time. 331 00:34:06,753.79513 --> 00:34:10,653.79513 And, realized I really wanted to be able to tell stories. 332 00:34:10,653.79513 --> 00:34:14,133.79513 You know, I was taking pictures that were trying to tell stories, but I wanted to do it. 333 00:34:14,133.79513 --> 00:34:16,173.79513 So I had heard about the program. 334 00:34:16,863.79513 --> 00:34:19,233.79513 At Stanford that did social issue documentaries. 335 00:34:19,323.79513 --> 00:34:20,43.79513 A tiny program. 336 00:34:20,73.79513 --> 00:34:21,423.79513 There's nine of us in the class. 337 00:34:21,423.79513 --> 00:34:30,543.79513 And it was in the old days when they were just in Quonset huts and that the teacher was from the Canadian Film Board and that they have this amazing standard of filmmaking. 338 00:34:30,543.79513 --> 00:34:35,283.79513 And I had met these people, people who then ended up in that building that we all bought together. 339 00:34:36,303.79513 --> 00:34:37,113.79513 and I applied. 340 00:34:37,113.79513 --> 00:34:38,403.79513 I didn't even think twice about it. 341 00:34:38,408.79513 --> 00:34:39,453.79513 It didn't even occur to me stamp. 342 00:34:39,453.79513 --> 00:34:41,103.79513 I did just none of that. 343 00:34:41,103.79513 --> 00:34:44,973.79513 But it was, I wanted to do this program talk about mentors. 344 00:34:44,973.79513 --> 00:34:49,923.79513 He was one of my mentors 'cause he was one of the gentlest men that I'd ever met. 345 00:34:51,273.79513 --> 00:34:52,953.79513 he was very reserved. 346 00:34:52,953.79513 --> 00:35:04,23.79513 And he would have these statements, like he'd look at our films and he would sit there for a moment and you're sitting there like, like, what's he gonna say? What's he gonna, and he would say of a very interesting way. 347 00:35:04,998.79513 --> 00:35:10,98.79513 Of using your music or like, I used a lot of music from the thirties and he loved that. 348 00:35:10,98.79513 --> 00:35:16,398.79513 You know, and, and, and he would say, you have very interesting taste in music when, you know, he was He was very, reserved. 349 00:35:16,398.79513 --> 00:35:25,128.79513 It wasn't like Steven Spiel, he wasn't going like at UCLA and had gone to UCLA and taken summer courses in filmmaking and that was fine. 350 00:35:25,128.79513 --> 00:35:28,308.79513 You know, it's state of the art, but it wasn't, there was no content there. 351 00:35:28,338.79513 --> 00:35:29,598.79513 It was just the craft. 352 00:35:29,598.79513 --> 00:35:37,100.5801053 And Stanford was social issue, documentary filmmaking, you know, that was what was a social issue? Documentary. 353 00:35:37,130.5801053 --> 00:35:44,13.79513 What, what? What fell into that category? all analog. 354 00:35:44,73.79513 --> 00:35:45,933.79513 You know, we were literally taping film together. 355 00:35:45,933.79513 --> 00:35:49,895.5801053 We weren't doing things on computers or anything, then I. 356 00:35:50,43.79513 --> 00:35:55,563.79513 an encouragement to talk about social issues in your, thesis you know, that it could be anything. 357 00:35:55,653.79513 --> 00:35:59,973.79513 Um, you know, but even in my third quarter, one, I did something on the need for childcare. 358 00:35:59,973.79513 --> 00:36:08,943.79513 I did a whole thing on childcare and how childcare workers are underfunded and underpaid and, you know, the childcare in general, and that we need universal childcare and stuff. 359 00:36:09,153.79513 --> 00:36:10,173.79513 This was when I was 30. 360 00:36:10,173.79513 --> 00:36:14,373.79513 You know, I was, you know, but I, an issue that mattered to me. 361 00:36:14,823.79513 --> 00:36:15,783.79513 I didn't have kids yet. 362 00:36:15,903.79513 --> 00:36:24,333.79513 And um, so the idea behind it was that when you make a film, it's not just about pyrotechnics or craft. 363 00:36:24,333.79513 --> 00:36:27,843.79513 It was, I mean, our teacher would always say to us. 364 00:36:28,983.79513 --> 00:36:35,433.79513 Any, you know, it's a, a poor craftsman blames their tools, the idea being that the content is what matters. 365 00:36:35,883.79513 --> 00:36:42,633.79513 And so they really told us that the storytelling is what matters and learning how to tell a story. 366 00:36:43,23.79513 --> 00:36:51,3.79513 The other part comes along with it, but it wasn't an emphasis on how the lighting is or how the, you know, it was really the storytelling. 367 00:36:51,363.79513 --> 00:37:03,933.79513 Um, What did you learn about storytelling in in those days? What were some of the lessons that, that you were taught? I liked personal stories that fit into a larger social narrative. 368 00:37:04,713.79513 --> 00:37:07,953.79513 so for me it was never the big social narrative. 369 00:37:07,953.79513 --> 00:37:12,633.79513 It was always the story that exemplified or illuminated story. 370 00:37:12,633.79513 --> 00:37:16,893.79513 So the, my thesis film, I was, um, I had been, uh. 371 00:37:17,733.79513 --> 00:37:17,913.79513 I. 372 00:37:18,333.79513 --> 00:37:19,355.5801053 nobody was I. 373 00:37:19,383.79513 --> 00:37:25,623.79513 about eating disorders back then and what was talked about was absolutely not true. 374 00:37:25,683.79513 --> 00:37:32,823.79513 And so I made a film on anorexia nervosa, but I did it all through the people, the people I interviewed, stories. 375 00:37:33,783.79513 --> 00:37:38,493.79513 found six people and they were all people that were outside the demographic of the conventional knowledge. 376 00:37:38,493.79513 --> 00:37:48,63.79513 And it wasn't at all from the perspective, it was from their perspective, their experience, how they found with a little bits of narration. 377 00:37:48,153.79513 --> 00:37:53,613.79513 Actually, Paula Poundstone, who's a famous comedian now narrated it 'cause I loved her in those days. 378 00:37:53,943.79513 --> 00:37:57,603.79513 Um, and so that was my first, that was my thesis film. 379 00:37:57,753.79513 --> 00:38:03,665.5801053 And, the name itself of the, of that film has the, has the, um, the energy that you're describing. 380 00:38:03,665.5801053 --> 00:38:05,375.5801053 It's called Portraits of Anorexia. 381 00:38:05,465.5801053 --> 00:38:05,735.5801053 Right. 382 00:38:05,735.5801053 --> 00:38:11,555.5801053 It's, it's not the science of anorexia or the study of it, it's portraits. 383 00:38:15,213.79513 --> 00:38:15,693.79513 something. 384 00:38:16,23.79513 --> 00:38:21,783.79513 Um, and my film company, ironic, not ironically, intentionally, was titled Fat Chance Films. 385 00:38:22,203.79513 --> 00:38:24,993.79513 Um, so, you know, I did that. 386 00:38:24,993.79513 --> 00:38:34,323.79513 But then through that, um, I met Rob Epstein, who became, I worked on Never Cry Wolf with him, know, which was this feature film. 387 00:38:34,323.79513 --> 00:38:37,53.79513 And then he was gonna start this Harvey Milk film. 388 00:38:37,53.79513 --> 00:38:38,253.79513 And so I worked with him on that. 389 00:38:38,253.79513 --> 00:38:45,903.79513 And then we worked on, I worked with him on the AIDS Quilt film and, um, so these were films and again, told through the people who had been impacted. 390 00:38:46,143.79513 --> 00:38:50,313.79513 So I learned a lot working with Rob and. 391 00:38:51,408.79513 --> 00:38:54,558.79513 and also working with he, he's now a well-known musician. 392 00:38:54,558.79513 --> 00:39:02,928.79513 His name is Mark Isha, but I worked with him on Never Cry Wolf, and he also scored, um, my film, but he also scored Rob's film and it's gone on to score a lot. 393 00:39:02,928.79513 --> 00:39:07,968.79513 But I learned a lot of the impact of music to the storytelling as well, the elements of storytelling. 394 00:39:08,28.79513 --> 00:39:25,98.79513 And then after that I worked on a bunch of different documentaries, but I also worked in television and I worked at KQED, which is our public broadcasting station here for years on And this was again, years ago, long before the environmental movement and it was called Green Means. 395 00:39:25,98.79513 --> 00:39:30,918.79513 And we, we did three seasons in which we profiled ordinary people doing extraordinary things for the environment. 396 00:39:30,918.79513 --> 00:39:35,178.79513 And again, it was their stories that talked of that about a bigger issue. 397 00:39:35,208.79513 --> 00:39:35,778.79513 So we. 398 00:39:36,738.79513 --> 00:39:49,38.79513 Spoke with a woman in, um, the middle of California who had figured out how to grow organic colored cotton because cotton is one of the most heavily pesticide industries. 399 00:39:49,368.79513 --> 00:40:00,918.79513 And she had figured out how to cross germinate and she literally, there would be green bowls of cotton and brown bowls of cotton that she had figured out how to, she was a scientist like we did a story about her. 400 00:40:00,918.79513 --> 00:40:05,148.79513 She was an amazing woman, you know, or people who were doing well. 401 00:40:05,148.79513 --> 00:40:06,228.79513 The seed bank, of course. 402 00:40:06,348.79513 --> 00:40:12,528.79513 But, you know, we were doing individual again, based on the person's story that then talked about a bigger issue. 403 00:40:12,558.79513 --> 00:40:19,278.79513 So that was my introduction into the storytelling, that people want to hear stories and they're interested in character. 404 00:40:19,458.79513 --> 00:40:27,438.79513 We all are interested in, um, how a character drives a story, but what makes them come to a story as opposed to. 405 00:40:28,413.79513 --> 00:40:52,293.79513 We could talk about pesticide use in agriculture, but you know, mean, any reasons why Rachel Carson was so, so influential? Because if you go back and read her writing, the woman who wrote Silent Spring, who's the birth of the environmental movement, writing is unbelievable because it's personal stories of farmers who were fighting pesticides or the impact the pesticides were having on the birds or the impact. 406 00:40:52,293.79513 --> 00:40:56,493.79513 So it's like through personal stories, we learn bigger issues. 407 00:40:56,493.79513 --> 00:41:00,513.79513 And so that was really my orientation through filmmaking. 408 00:41:01,803.79513 --> 00:41:14,493.79513 and um, and I then segue, you know, I did filmmaking for years, um, and I worked on some Hollywood movies too, but usually in a like low level thing, just as a, because it made money, you made a lot of money doing that. 409 00:41:14,913.79513 --> 00:41:22,23.79513 Um, and but the KQED stuff, and I worked on a lot of different things at KQED, but Green Means was the one by of course, I was most proud of. 410 00:41:22,53.79513 --> 00:41:25,195.5801053 And we Well, your heart was in, your heart was in personal stories. 411 00:41:28,983.79513 --> 00:41:32,913.79513 political stories simultaneously, you know, that illuminated a political story. 412 00:41:32,913.79513 --> 00:41:56,283.79513 So not just some kooky character, you know, like my stories always were connected to some pressing social political story or, um, and I learned a lot of that working on the Harvey Milk film, working on the quilt, the AIDS quilt film, you know, because that by itself, you know, the quilt with all the different people's lives that it was memorializing that. 413 00:41:56,343.79513 --> 00:42:02,583.79513 Um, so I learned the value of the personal story within to illuminate larger social political issues. 414 00:42:03,63.79513 --> 00:42:03,573.79513 Um. 415 00:42:04,38.79513 --> 00:42:08,298.79513 And I did that until I had, um, Zach, until I had my son. 416 00:42:08,298.79513 --> 00:42:10,908.79513 And it was too hard to do filmmaking and be a parent. 417 00:42:11,598.79513 --> 00:42:19,848.79513 Um, and then my own personal health issues, which I'm happy to talk about, but, but became a librarian after that. 418 00:42:19,848.79513 --> 00:42:24,138.79513 I didn't go to library school, but I worked in school libraries and I worked in the local public library. 419 00:42:24,558.79513 --> 00:42:25,908.79513 Um, because I love books. 420 00:42:25,998.79513 --> 00:42:32,958.79513 I mean, I, I am somebody that, I mean, I really all my life have loved to read. 421 00:42:32,958.79513 --> 00:42:40,698.79513 And when I was a little kid, I would read and walk the dog, you know, I'd be reading up, up until very recently I would read and on walk 'cause there were just too many books to read. 422 00:42:41,178.79513 --> 00:42:49,68.79513 And I love the idea of young people how to, you know, getting young people interested in stories and reading. 423 00:42:49,68.79513 --> 00:42:50,568.79513 I love reading aloud. 424 00:42:51,408.79513 --> 00:43:01,128.79513 I love being read too, but I also really love reading aloud because I love the ability to watch people respond to the written word, which is. 425 00:43:01,878.79513 --> 00:43:04,398.79513 Made bigger by the way you read it. 426 00:43:04,458.79513 --> 00:43:11,178.79513 You know, whereas if you just read and monotone, you know, it's like it's someone will, so it was another, and again, stories, it's all stories. 427 00:43:11,178.79513 --> 00:43:22,8.79513 And I do believe, like reading really teaches empathy because you can't empathize, you cannot get into a character if you can't empathize with them. 428 00:43:22,158.79513 --> 00:43:23,898.79513 I mean, it's kind of that Atticus Finch line. 429 00:43:23,898.79513 --> 00:43:26,718.79513 You have to get inside a person's skin and walk around for a little bit. 430 00:43:26,718.79513 --> 00:43:27,888.79513 It's, it's a little bit that. 431 00:43:28,278.79513 --> 00:43:35,88.79513 Um, so again, storytelling, you know, and so reading as an avid reader, I also learned about how you tell a story. 432 00:43:36,378.79513 --> 00:43:52,218.79513 and, At what point in this process did you start writing? At what point in this process did you start writing your own stories? I was, um, probably. 433 00:43:52,563.79513 --> 00:43:57,873.79513 Probably after the, uh, no, during, because I started writing screenplays when I was interested in film. 434 00:43:57,873.79513 --> 00:43:58,590.5801053 So that was I. 435 00:43:58,683.79513 --> 00:43:59,73.79513 writing. 436 00:43:59,73.79513 --> 00:44:01,323.79513 Some, some of them were like TV pilot. 437 00:44:01,653.79513 --> 00:44:01,983.79513 Uh, I. 438 00:44:02,643.79513 --> 00:44:07,173.79513 'cause I love dialogue and it's character based, you know, and I love getting inside a character to tell their story. 439 00:44:07,863.79513 --> 00:44:19,653.79513 Um, um, and then I would write little pieces, just like the college essays, you know, I would write little pieces and I, I had one published in a local magazine in San Francisco. 440 00:44:19,683.79513 --> 00:44:27,393.79513 And because my name is so recognizable, it was a story, it was humorous, but it was a story about my family. 441 00:44:27,423.79513 --> 00:44:32,673.79513 And it got back to my father's wife and she took great issue with it. 442 00:44:32,673.79513 --> 00:44:33,963.79513 It hurt her feelings. 443 00:44:33,963.79513 --> 00:44:40,923.79513 And she lashed out at me and I realized, okay, there are limits to what one can publish and not publish in terms of hurting other people's feelings. 444 00:44:40,953.79513 --> 00:44:42,273.79513 And I, I was. 445 00:44:42,303.79513 --> 00:44:43,653.79513 I reckless. 446 00:44:43,653.79513 --> 00:44:48,873.79513 I wasn't mindful of the power of the written word and how it can impact somebody else. 447 00:44:49,263.79513 --> 00:44:54,633.79513 But I kept writing, you know, I would write, I wouldn't publish it, but I would write stories that I was thinking about. 448 00:44:54,723.79513 --> 00:45:00,753.79513 Um, certainly once Zach was born, I would write stories about him as he was growing up. 449 00:45:01,285.5801053 --> 00:45:10,233.79513 Why, would you write those stories? was how he was, who he was and how he was becoming. 450 00:45:10,233.79513 --> 00:45:14,553.79513 And that his, like, half the time was Zach. 451 00:45:15,708.79513 --> 00:45:25,8.79513 I would look at him and I think, who are your parents? How did you come out like that? How are you this, you know, like, did that happen? You know? 'cause I admire his backbone. 452 00:45:25,8.79513 --> 00:45:33,828.79513 I admire, um, his independent streak I admire, that he really is not someone who's worried about how other people think about him. 453 00:45:33,918.79513 --> 00:45:40,518.79513 Um, and as Maya, his partner always says, he's the one person she knows that's really, truly comfortable in his own skin. 454 00:45:40,578.79513 --> 00:45:47,178.79513 And it's true, he is, does not mean he does not have all kinds of stuff going on, you know, anxiety and all the rest that young people have. 455 00:45:47,178.79513 --> 00:45:51,708.79513 But, he's not worried about how somebody else will think about him. 456 00:45:51,738.79513 --> 00:46:00,288.79513 Not that he doesn't, not that he has disregard for other people, but that he's not wor he never was, as a kid, he wasn't worried about. 457 00:46:00,963.79513 --> 00:46:06,723.79513 Um, did he fit in with the social group or not? He wasn't worried that, that, I mean, I'm sure there was some of it. 458 00:46:06,723.79513 --> 00:46:09,993.79513 Of course all teenagers have that, but it didn't influence how he acted. 459 00:46:10,203.79513 --> 00:46:11,823.79513 Was he lonely? Yeah, probably. 460 00:46:12,63.79513 --> 00:46:17,433.79513 'cause he wasn't, you know, but, so I would write little stories about him. 461 00:46:18,275.5801053 --> 00:46:22,505.5801053 Fascination seems like a great reason to, to write about something. 462 00:46:22,625.5801053 --> 00:46:31,715.5801053 I think that one, one is fascinated about something that that comes through and one is motivated to write even if there is no, no necessary reader at the other, at the other end of that. 463 00:46:31,955.5801053 --> 00:46:46,413.79513 How does that value play in your work with students today, if at all? am, I love the fact that I get to hear what young people are thinking about today. 464 00:46:46,563.79513 --> 00:46:51,603.79513 So back to our first discussion about sense of hope and possibility for the future. 465 00:46:52,83.79513 --> 00:46:57,723.79513 This is the generation, you know, like getting to know these young people and what they're thinking about and. 466 00:46:59,58.79513 --> 00:47:10,878.79513 that they're wanting, you know? 'cause for the most part, the kids with whom I work are all socially progressive, politically progressive, have an interest in trying to impact the world in a good way. 467 00:47:11,328.79513 --> 00:47:29,58.79513 Um, I, it'd probably be hard for me to work with someone who didn't, but I'm really fascinated with they think, what they're thinking about, what matters to them, they spend their time, not, not to get the accolades, not to get the awards, but really what matters to them. 468 00:47:29,478.79513 --> 00:47:37,38.79513 You know? And maybe it's even some of the anxiety and maybe some of it's the fears they have. 469 00:47:37,38.79513 --> 00:47:43,248.79513 But I like, I like hearing people's stories and I like hearing stories of people of all ages too. 470 00:47:43,368.79513 --> 00:47:47,328.79513 And I really do like hearing what young people are thinking about these days. 471 00:47:49,368.79513 --> 00:47:55,578.79513 and then, you know, also because I've, you know, traveled around the sun a lot of times because I'm so old. 472 00:47:56,373.79513 --> 00:48:07,653.79513 can bring perspective to it too, you know, like I'm not their peer and you know, I can bring a little bit, I can bring my own stories to the table, not about me, but other stories that might enlighten. 473 00:48:08,133.79513 --> 00:48:15,123.79513 And so, and expand their, expand, expand how they see the world or what's possible too. 474 00:48:15,993.79513 --> 00:48:26,283.79513 or make connections in a way that they may not see, you know, that might help them, um, see a different side of themselves. 475 00:48:26,373.79513 --> 00:48:35,373.79513 Um, so So fascination I think is, is, is foundational to doing the work we do, you know, being interested. 476 00:48:35,613.79513 --> 00:49:02,525.5801053 Otherwise, I, I it's mechanical, you know, it's kind of like, okay, and to really caring about these kids, bringing a certain level of care and, thoughtfulness to the work, mindfulness to it as Well, you are making me think about the, the potential healing power of being regarded with fascination as a, as a as any person, right? As a, as a, as an older person, but as a younger person especially. 477 00:49:02,555.5801053 --> 00:49:03,935.5801053 Especially that's not been. 478 00:49:04,220.5801053 --> 00:49:09,530.5801053 The way in which you've been regarded by your primary others or even by by your community. 479 00:49:09,920.5801053 --> 00:49:14,870.5801053 I, we both believe that this work is about much more than just the, the writing of it. 480 00:49:14,870.5801053 --> 00:49:25,880.5801053 If, if, if it were just about the writing of it, it's something that could occur exclusively offline, maybe, or without the cameras on, without meeting the students and, and asking so many questions. 481 00:49:26,300.5801053 --> 00:49:38,810.5801053 Uh, an artificial intelligence can write your story these days, but the, the process of coming to your story through another's interest in it is, I think a really important part of, of the work. 482 00:49:42,603.79513 --> 00:49:49,83.79513 I think that to be human is to want to be seen and be heard on some level. 483 00:49:49,563.79513 --> 00:49:54,333.79513 And I think that writing is a way to be able also to tell your truth. 484 00:49:54,693.79513 --> 00:50:06,873.79513 And so it's working with kids to be able to tell their truth, figuring out what that might be, and having an adult that's not their parents them sort of figure out what that might be is. 485 00:50:06,933.79513 --> 00:50:19,773.79513 Um, and someone who is not scary and not a scary adult, you know? Um, I always tell my students, you know, I have a lot of opinions, but I really encourage you to push back and just say, Wendy, you're nuts. 486 00:50:19,773.79513 --> 00:50:20,403.79513 Or I don't agree. 487 00:50:20,403.79513 --> 00:50:23,523.79513 You know, it's like I'm a totally safe person to do that with. 488 00:50:24,3.79513 --> 00:50:27,153.79513 And I encourage them too, 'cause I want them also to find their voice. 489 00:50:27,483.79513 --> 00:50:45,33.79513 I want them to figure out who are they, you know, right now? What matters to them? What's important to them, you know, what is it? And I love when students are able to identify sort of, not just, you know, I wanna have a sense of humor here, or I want this, but to be able to figure out how they want to express themselves. 490 00:50:45,63.79513 --> 00:50:52,53.79513 And I think that is just experience, being able to express oneself and to express oneself. 491 00:50:52,803.79513 --> 00:51:03,905.5801053 Um, not just in a safe environment, but to feel, for lack of a better word, proud of expressing themselves, Yeah, and to feel a certain sense to your narrative. 492 00:51:03,965.5801053 --> 00:51:08,945.5801053 Also to feel like what you, what you've been, what you are, what you feel you are right now. 493 00:51:09,155.5801053 --> 00:51:10,385.5801053 Makes sense. 494 00:51:14,28.79513 --> 00:51:19,820.5801053 the human condition and the human dialogue and the human experience, you know, that it, it has a place I. 495 00:51:20,238.79513 --> 00:51:27,558.79513 everyone else's, you know, that not one or another important, that, that there is value in it as well. 496 00:51:27,618.79513 --> 00:51:36,318.79513 And I think that that's a really important, and I think that's part of the dynamic of working with students is valuing who they are and listening to them. 497 00:51:36,378.79513 --> 00:51:46,8.79513 And, um, and it's something I'm also working on because I tend to be a little talky in my, in my sessions and learning to reign it in. 498 00:51:46,38.79513 --> 00:51:53,418.79513 'cause I'm very shy and introverted, but not in these little one-on-ones learning, like rein it in a little because let them speak, you know, give them more space to speak. 499 00:51:54,20.5801053 --> 00:52:08,598.79513 What makes an essay work for you? typically it's when you really hear someone, their voice, hearing a voice where something is own thing, it's own where it's not. 500 00:52:08,688.79513 --> 00:52:16,248.79513 Um, where someone's not afraid to show, show their foibles, their quirks, uh, their, the way they think. 501 00:52:17,268.79513 --> 00:52:19,518.79513 getting inside, you know, whatever. 502 00:52:19,968.79513 --> 00:52:25,68.79513 You know, what doesn't work for me? I can articulate what doesn't, what doesn't work to me. 503 00:52:25,68.79513 --> 00:52:28,98.79513 Is that monotone or the, I did this, I did this, I did this. 504 00:52:28,98.79513 --> 00:52:36,918.79513 Isn't this great? You know, like last year I had a student who shadowed, you know, wants to be a doctor and shadowed lots of things and didn't feel like he needed to do anything other than that. 505 00:52:36,918.79513 --> 00:52:39,288.79513 That, that was on merit enough of what it was. 506 00:52:39,288.79513 --> 00:52:41,808.79513 And I kept saying, but this isn't telling me anything about you. 507 00:52:41,808.79513 --> 00:52:49,248.79513 What did you learn watching that surgeon? What did you learn? You know, pull, pulling out from what that, so for me, it's sort of like. 508 00:52:50,118.79513 --> 00:52:55,188.79513 What that experience reflects about who they are and how they're thinking about the world in their own way. 509 00:52:56,418.79513 --> 00:53:20,628.79513 and, seeing a little bit of them come through, and whether it's through language, whether it's through feeling okay, being quirky, whether it's humor, whether it's, um, you know, what, certainly we can talk about literary techniques and all that, the craft of writing, but it's, it's more them coming through and something that is memorable to me. 510 00:53:21,48.79513 --> 00:53:36,408.79513 You know, like things that I will remember about, you know, because of the way they put it together, the way they talked about two things that were seemingly disconnected, connected, you know, where they make those unusual connections always, you know, to use the language as BEG. 511 00:53:36,408.79513 --> 00:53:39,708.79513 But, but truly that is lovely when you see someone. 512 00:53:40,488.79513 --> 00:53:49,278.79513 together, you know, where, where it's not the obvious connection always, you know, where it's not like, well, I hurt myself, so I worked hard and then I got back on the field. 513 00:53:49,368.79513 --> 00:53:57,469.79513 That feels very, you know, I've heard it a lot, but it's someone who takes something and spins it with their own voice and their own way of seeing it. 514 00:53:58,345.5801053 --> 00:54:16,340.5801053 I agree a hundred percent that what makes an essay valuable? What I like to listen for, what anyone likes to listen for in writing is an author's unique voice that their writing is, is just a representation of their voice, right? The word is, the word alone on the page is lifeless, but it's sort of. 515 00:54:16,955.5801053 --> 00:54:21,845.5801053 Brings a a, a person and their subjectivity to the reader, which is really hard to do. 516 00:54:22,115.5801053 --> 00:54:27,305.5801053 I wonder what some of the tools in your tool belt are for getting that voice on the page. 517 00:54:27,635.5801053 --> 00:54:33,888.79513 Uh, what do you do to help a student make that leap? question. 518 00:54:35,328.79513 --> 00:54:36,708.79513 when a done. 519 00:54:38,13.79513 --> 00:54:41,13.79513 work, brainstorming work if they've done it, which most of 'em don't. 520 00:54:41,13.79513 --> 00:54:48,723.79513 But when they have, like, I have a student right now, doesn't know what he wants to write about, but it was so clear to me in his brainstorming that has a marvelous sense of humor. 521 00:54:49,143.79513 --> 00:54:55,113.79513 Just funny, you know, like, like he would argue with the brainstorming thing, like the 21 things You wanna college. 522 00:54:55,113.79513 --> 00:54:57,993.79513 And he, he'd say as he got to 20, he goes, I got 20. 523 00:54:57,993.79513 --> 00:54:58,863.79513 That's it. 524 00:54:58,923.79513 --> 00:55:01,833.79513 I don't, you know, I mean, he had this funny way of responding to it. 525 00:55:01,833.79513 --> 00:55:07,263.79513 And I love that because what it said to me is, he's not in the box, he's outside the box. 526 00:55:07,263.79513 --> 00:55:24,573.79513 He's willing to say, or I had another student, she was a difficult one to work with, but she there, one of the questions in the old CG days was, what's something you've never told anyone else? And her answer was, why would I tell you? I just thought that was hysterical because it's like, why would you? And so what I look for. 527 00:55:24,963.79513 --> 00:55:26,943.79513 Either in conversation or in the written thing. 528 00:55:26,943.79513 --> 00:55:27,753.79513 And I take notes. 529 00:55:27,808.79513 --> 00:55:29,673.79513 I, I should do it online, but I just do it. 530 00:55:29,763.79513 --> 00:55:30,423.79513 I'm old school. 531 00:55:31,293.79513 --> 00:55:32,913.79513 I look for how they speak. 532 00:55:33,213.79513 --> 00:55:34,593.79513 I look for phrases. 533 00:55:34,593.79513 --> 00:55:56,283.79513 They say I look for things that, I look for things like it, whether it's humor, whether it's, um, you know, things that, it, it like that I see as just specific to that person and much the same way that like you meet someone in a coffee shop and there's something about the way they talk to you that makes you wanna keep having a conversation with them. 534 00:55:56,613.79513 --> 00:55:59,583.79513 Whereas there's somebody else and you're like, here. 535 00:55:59,583.79513 --> 00:56:01,863.79513 I really don't wanna hear about their, their. 536 00:56:02,808.79513 --> 00:56:05,328.79513 trip or whatever, you know, it's like, it's monitor, it's kind of boring. 537 00:56:05,658.79513 --> 00:56:15,618.79513 But this one's putting together all kinds of interesting things and they're like putting together, talking about, know, so it's finding, listening to them and seeing what I'm seeing behind the scenes. 538 00:56:15,678.79513 --> 00:56:17,838.79513 Not the words of I do this, this, and this. 539 00:56:17,838.79513 --> 00:56:19,8.79513 'cause they all tell you that. 540 00:56:19,458.79513 --> 00:56:22,458.79513 Um, but it's really what's behind that. 541 00:56:22,548.79513 --> 00:56:26,208.79513 You know, whether it's humor, whether it's vulnerability. 542 00:56:26,538.79513 --> 00:56:34,218.79513 You know, I had a student just is having a hardest, hardest, hardest, I've known him since elementary school. 543 00:56:34,218.79513 --> 00:56:38,538.79513 He was one of the students at the school where I was working that was in the learning center. 544 00:56:38,568.79513 --> 00:56:42,648.79513 He was a very awkward kid it still needs some. 545 00:56:43,623.79513 --> 00:56:45,693.79513 additional help in school and stuff. 546 00:56:45,723.79513 --> 00:56:51,933.79513 Um, and he, there's clearly a lot going on with him, but he starts for, for weeks. 547 00:56:51,933.79513 --> 00:56:53,613.79513 There's no story, there's nothing to write about. 548 00:56:53,613.79513 --> 00:56:54,123.79513 I know nothing. 549 00:56:54,123.79513 --> 00:57:02,13.79513 But then he starts telling me, I started asking him about elementary school and I said, I remember you walking down that corridor, you know, when you were tall, that head. 550 00:57:02,13.79513 --> 00:57:10,503.79513 And so, and he starts telling me that in elementary school, because he was such an outsider, he would tell lies to get people to like him. 551 00:57:10,953.79513 --> 00:57:12,723.79513 And I said, well, let's not talk, let's not say lies. 552 00:57:12,723.79513 --> 00:57:13,743.79513 Let's talk about the fish story. 553 00:57:13,743.79513 --> 00:57:21,48.79513 So instead of the minnow you caught, it was the swordfish or whatever, you know, like, think of it in the, you know, I was trying to, show him to have more compassion for himself. 554 00:57:21,48.79513 --> 00:57:23,793.79513 That there was a little boy in there who. 555 00:57:24,213.79513 --> 00:57:27,333.79513 Wanted just to be liked, just wanted to be included. 556 00:57:27,363.79513 --> 00:57:32,433.79513 That's really where this, but so I look for those kinds of things in somebody. 557 00:57:32,433.79513 --> 00:57:35,73.79513 I look for the, you know, I ask questions. 558 00:57:35,463.79513 --> 00:57:38,13.79513 I can feel when someone's in pain, I feel it. 559 00:57:38,13.79513 --> 00:57:42,33.79513 It's part of maybe having grown up in a challenging childhood. 560 00:57:42,213.79513 --> 00:57:45,843.79513 I, I know it, I can see it in how someone speaks to me. 561 00:57:46,323.79513 --> 00:57:49,53.79513 And I have to be really careful of how I bring it. 562 00:57:49,83.79513 --> 00:57:52,233.79513 'cause I'm not a therapist, I'm not, that's not my skill. 563 00:57:52,263.79513 --> 00:57:53,373.79513 It's above my pay grade. 564 00:57:53,793.79513 --> 00:57:57,603.79513 But I'm a human and I can respond on a human level to other people. 565 00:57:57,603.79513 --> 00:58:00,243.79513 And so that story has stuck with me. 566 00:58:00,273.79513 --> 00:58:02,583.79513 Now, whether or not he will write about it, I doubt it. 567 00:58:02,673.79513 --> 00:58:08,43.79513 But to me, I mean, in my head that night, I'm already writing, uh, here's what I would do with that one. 568 00:58:08,43.79513 --> 00:58:18,963.79513 You know? And the ways that I learned compassion for myself, because this was all I was trying to do was to get, you know, I'm writing in his voice, but, that's, I look, I look at the whole person really. 569 00:58:18,993.79513 --> 00:58:21,513.79513 You know, and it's one of the reasons why the zoom. 570 00:58:21,963.79513 --> 00:58:26,493.79513 I actually like Zoom better than in person, because Zoom, you feel up close and in person. 571 00:58:26,493.79513 --> 00:58:28,263.79513 You don't have the computer between you. 572 00:58:28,263.79513 --> 00:58:32,163.79513 When I used to work in person, the computer was always there. 573 00:58:32,163.79513 --> 00:58:37,743.79513 The kids could get on the computer or you'd be, you know, and or we'd be in a cafe and they'd be like, watching everybody zoom. 574 00:58:37,743.79513 --> 00:58:41,793.79513 We're there together right there, you know? And I look for the person. 575 00:58:41,793.79513 --> 00:58:49,623.79513 Some of it's intuitive, you know, I'm, as I say, I'm not a therapist, but I suspect that's a lot of what therapists also do is they, they're, they're looking for the story behind the story. 576 00:58:50,43.79513 --> 00:58:55,653.79513 You know, like people come in to a therapist with a reason, you know, oh, I'm here because I'm going through a divorce. 577 00:58:55,653.79513 --> 00:58:58,443.79513 Well, it turns out it's not really about the divorce, it's about it. 578 00:58:58,443.79513 --> 00:59:00,3.79513 Whole host of other things. 579 00:59:00,3.79513 --> 00:59:06,753.79513 And that's the lovely journey of going through therapy is that you realize, oh yeah, that's just the tip of the iceberg there. 580 00:59:06,813.79513 --> 00:59:09,303.79513 And I feel like that's a little bit true with kids. 581 00:59:10,203.79513 --> 00:59:32,163.79513 know, not that it's trouble or, or anything like that, but there's the tip, you know, the thing they come to the table with is often the tip of like, well, what does that really mean? And, you know, what does that climbing trees mean to you? You know, or what does that, you know, um, it is that, that they, they come to the table with, you know? And that's, that is definitely c G's approach too. 582 00:59:32,223.79513 --> 00:59:40,293.79513 It's not, I mean, they never talk about, you know, getting behind the person, but that is definitely the, you know, they talk about it in a more formal way of value, skills, blah, blah, blah. 583 00:59:40,623.79513 --> 00:59:50,373.79513 For me, it's more like getting, getting to know the person, who is this person, what, what matters to them, and finding whatever it is and noticing it in a positive way with them. 584 00:59:50,373.79513 --> 00:59:51,663.79513 Like the kid, with the sense of humor. 585 00:59:51,663.79513 --> 00:59:54,333.79513 I go, I just love your, I always say I love your sense of humor. 586 00:59:54,333.79513 --> 00:59:55,323.79513 This cracks me up. 587 00:59:55,353.79513 --> 01:00:07,83.79513 Or, um, I have learned with 'cause I've had plenty of them, who are perfectionist, finally when I feel like they're, trust me, I'll say, I, I kind of think you're a little bit of a perfectionist and they like just. 588 01:00:08,223.79513 --> 01:00:10,863.79513 am, you know, and it's really hard. 589 01:00:10,863.79513 --> 01:00:16,143.79513 And then I read the great Annie Lamont quote about perfectionism and how it's the great oppressor and stuff. 590 01:00:16,173.79513 --> 01:00:45,153.79513 And they're like, really? Oh, that's so, you know, like they feel relieved both to be seen, but also to realize I don't, I, I will still be this way, but I don't have to hold onto it, you know? And really it's no different than the way one works with another human being, you know? It really is just finding the kernels of who they are, what matters to them, you know? And then also reflecting back to them what I'm, the positive things that I'm seeing. 591 01:00:45,633.79513 --> 01:00:56,613.79513 Um, and not in any forced way, you know, and not in any, you know, 'cause I know that some of the self-help things nowadays and you know, they tend to have a little bit of, um. 592 01:00:58,98.79513 --> 01:01:05,988.79513 They feel pat to me, you know, like, uh, uh, like so I learned just to respond on a human level, you know, as opposed to a, a line. 593 01:01:06,48.79513 --> 01:01:09,318.79513 You know what I hear you saying is I don't do that. 594 01:01:09,648.79513 --> 01:01:11,748.79513 Sometimes I will, but very rarely. 595 01:01:11,748.79513 --> 01:01:16,338.79513 You know, I try to just beam me them, you know, human to human. 596 01:01:16,835.5801053 --> 01:01:19,490.5801053 I feel like I wanna put so many asterisks on what you've said. 597 01:01:19,520.5801053 --> 01:01:21,560.5801053 Uh, by asterisk, I mean a big star. 598 01:01:21,560.5801053 --> 01:01:22,100.5801053 Like, yes. 599 01:01:22,100.5801053 --> 01:01:24,770.5801053 Like listen to this, this is great, this is important. 600 01:01:25,70.5801053 --> 01:01:30,200.5801053 Um, and I, instead of doing that, I'll just invoke a line from a meditation I attended. 601 01:01:30,530.5801053 --> 01:01:47,750.5801053 Exactly a week ago, so 24 times seven, so exactly a week ago, last Friday near me, where at the end of that meditation, the guide, an old woman who with a quavering voice said and, and she said it in Spanish. 602 01:01:47,750.5801053 --> 01:01:51,590.5801053 I'll say it in Spanish because it has a nicer ring to it, and then I'll translate it. 603 01:01:57,560.5801053 --> 01:02:03,290.5801053 The sense is not in the content, it's in the presence. 604 01:02:04,220.5801053 --> 01:02:11,870.5801053 I want to cite that because of what you said about how it's not about the stories being told in the text itself. 605 01:02:12,110.5801053 --> 01:02:16,250.5801053 You could be be telling a story about how you would walk around the school telling lies about the fish you caught. 606 01:02:16,580.5801053 --> 01:02:20,990.5801053 And maybe that's where the sense of you, your presence is that that is where the sense of you is. 607 01:02:20,990.5801053 --> 01:02:25,550.5801053 And of course, probably some other story after that one to not make it seem like, oh, that's all you've done the rest of your life. 608 01:02:26,420.5801053 --> 01:02:29,360.5801053 But I, I, I, I, I love, I love what you've shared. 609 01:02:29,390.5801053 --> 01:02:34,760.5801053 I don't wanna let you go without asking you, uh, about another shared passion, which is swimming. 610 01:02:34,820.5801053 --> 01:02:38,180.5801053 And I would just like to ask you why you love swimming so much. 611 01:02:41,178.79513 --> 01:02:50,508.79513 asked and, and what I realized about swimming is it's meditative and it is now in my life. 612 01:02:50,508.79513 --> 01:02:51,408.79513 It's meditative. 613 01:02:51,498.79513 --> 01:03:00,528.79513 Um, it is that 45 minutes every morning, no phone, no podcast, no computer, no nothing. 614 01:03:00,978.79513 --> 01:03:04,68.79513 You know, like people always say, I gotta get offline, I gotta get for me. 615 01:03:04,968.79513 --> 01:03:07,608.79513 not, it's not like, oh, I have to get, this is getting me offline. 616 01:03:07,608.79513 --> 01:03:19,188.79513 But it is that moment where it's quiet and it's also a place where I do some of, I think my greatest thoughts or I think what I think, and you know, when I'm swimming, I also work out things that are causing anxiety or issues. 617 01:03:19,608.79513 --> 01:03:25,908.79513 But I have also always loved swimming because I really love the way it. 618 01:03:26,328.79513 --> 01:03:30,858.79513 Feels the way my body feels, whether it's in an open water situation. 619 01:03:30,918.79513 --> 01:03:32,628.79513 I actually love swimming in open water. 620 01:03:32,628.79513 --> 01:03:34,98.79513 I don't do enough of it right now. 621 01:03:34,548.79513 --> 01:03:37,128.79513 Um, because I love the idea of being in the elements. 622 01:03:37,243.79513 --> 01:03:38,598.79513 I, I grew up in the ocean. 623 01:03:38,658.79513 --> 01:03:39,648.79513 I loved the ocean. 624 01:03:39,648.79513 --> 01:03:40,848.79513 I grew up body surfing. 625 01:03:40,848.79513 --> 01:03:48,468.79513 It was, you know, or we didn't have boogie boards back then, but riding rafts and body, I learned how to body surf and playing in the ocean. 626 01:03:48,468.79513 --> 01:03:49,728.79513 I love water. 627 01:03:49,908.79513 --> 01:03:52,608.79513 You know, I just, it, it's elemental to me. 628 01:03:53,28.79513 --> 01:03:57,558.79513 Um, I also love just being by the ocean and being by the water. 629 01:03:57,558.79513 --> 01:04:04,758.79513 But on the daily, in a pool is more the meditative because in a, in the ocean you kind of have to have your heads up. 630 01:04:05,158.79513 --> 01:04:06,388.79513 Yeah, you gotta have your wits about you. 631 01:04:06,418.79513 --> 01:04:09,328.79513 And even in open water swimming, I have to have my wits. 632 01:04:09,388.79513 --> 01:04:21,208.79513 'cause there's always a seal that will pop up or, you know, seaweed or something that's going, you know, it's a different form that's less meditative for me, that's more sort of like, Ooh, this is I'm out in this cold day. 633 01:04:21,298.79513 --> 01:04:25,948.79513 Um, but in general right now, it's really the meditative quality of it for me. 634 01:04:26,158.79513 --> 01:04:39,598.79513 It also makes me, you know, like I'm, I, I, I'm going, my mother's turning 99 and I'm going up for a day and an evening to Portland to see my family, and I'm not gonna get to swim for two days. 635 01:04:39,598.79513 --> 01:04:50,75.5801053 And I'm feeling, I'm already feeling like is like, I can't, I don't know how I'm gonna do this, but, um, but what do you love about swimming? I like about swimming. 636 01:04:50,465.5801053 --> 01:04:54,245.5801053 I also like that I can't listen to music or to my podcasts. 637 01:04:57,185.5801053 --> 01:05:08,315.5801053 I like the first moment when I enter the pool is my favorite, which is when I dunk in and I like to slide in from the, you know, from the, the little edge of the pool. 638 01:05:08,405.5801053 --> 01:05:09,905.5801053 Not, I never use the ladders. 639 01:05:10,505.5801053 --> 01:05:17,405.5801053 I like to slide in and immediately I'll just dunk my whole body in and just swim some, some, essentially some breast strokes. 640 01:05:17,405.5801053 --> 01:05:19,925.5801053 But I like to think of myself as some sort of aquatic animal. 641 01:05:20,225.5801053 --> 01:05:25,355.5801053 Um, some, some of that as the longest stretch I can of the pool before coming up for air. 642 01:05:25,985.5801053 --> 01:05:33,185.5801053 That's my favorite part because there's a silence It, it's, it's unlike any other side. 643 01:05:33,275.5801053 --> 01:05:36,35.5801053 I think you have to go to a cave in Iceland to feel that type of silence. 644 01:05:36,275.5801053 --> 01:05:45,65.5801053 Otherwise, and even when the pool is full of third graders who have come to, to swim in the middle of their school day, even then just dunking underwater, you hear nothing. 645 01:05:45,95.5801053 --> 01:05:45,875.5801053 I love that. 646 01:05:46,475.5801053 --> 01:05:49,445.5801053 And, and I like also the way it makes me, I. 647 01:05:50,105.5801053 --> 01:05:52,175.5801053 I understand the movements of my body. 648 01:05:52,205.5801053 --> 01:05:56,135.5801053 Ev it's true that every part of you needs to move together in a way underwater. 649 01:05:56,285.5801053 --> 01:06:00,425.5801053 It's also a completely different logic to the one that you use, uh, on land. 650 01:06:00,695.5801053 --> 01:06:11,585.5801053 Although I love the way I walk after I swim because I'm encouraged to use all of my body while I walk as well, which is not a, as, as obvious maybe in that, in that, um, type of movement. 651 01:06:12,185.5801053 --> 01:06:13,325.5801053 Um, yeah. 652 01:06:13,325.5801053 --> 01:06:14,315.5801053 But thank you for asking. 653 01:06:14,495.5801053 --> 01:06:23,195.5801053 I I'm so thankful for this chance to put all of the questions I've had for you and about you into one, uh, list and into one hour together. 654 01:06:23,465.5801053 --> 01:06:29,465.5801053 Uh, thank you so much for, for what you've shared and for the, for the nuggets of wisdom that have come up. 655 01:06:33,408.79513 --> 01:06:34,818.79513 in what I have to say. 656 01:06:35,78.79513 --> 01:06:39,498.79513 And, but thank you for, for always for our conversations. 657 01:06:39,498.79513 --> 01:06:41,28.79513 I always enjoy them. 658 01:06:41,208.79513 --> 01:06:47,388.79513 I mean, they are really delightful and I learned so much from you as well. 659 01:06:47,568.79513 --> 01:06:48,288.79513 Um, and. 660 01:06:50,123.79513 --> 01:07:04,128.79513 I, I feel very honored to be asked and to be, have been a part of it, but I really do enjoy our conversations and I hope they will continue, not just through the course of our college essay work, but through the course of our travels and journeys. 661 01:07:04,488.79513 --> 01:07:05,688.79513 So thank you. 662 01:07:12,144.6977923 --> 01:07:13,194.6977923 Thanks for being here. 663 01:07:13,764.6977923 --> 01:07:21,294.6977923 If this conversation resonated with you, consider reviewing therapy for the world or sharing the link with someone who might appreciate it. 664 01:07:21,954.6977923 --> 01:07:25,404.6977923 Until next time, speak with care and listen deeply.

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