Seeing the World Through the Lens of Insects and Phenomenology

Hyun-Yong is an entomologist and PhD candidate at Cornell’s College of Agriculture and Life Sciences. I reached out to him because when I met him a few years back, I appreciated his thoughtfulness and his quirkiness. He's someone who doesn't fit neatly into categories—a person who might be described as contrarian or sui generis, someone of his own kind. In his work as an entomologist, Hyun-Yong also draws from his training in environmental philosophy, especially the phenomenological tradition, which centers on observing the world, its things, and its occurrences neutrally—with curiosity and wonder. From the beginning, his work has explored the blurred boundaries between “nature” and “artificiality,” asking how biodiversity can flourish in spaces shaped by both humanity and ecology. That includes hybrid landscapes such as solar fields in the Northeastern U.S., or the Demilitarized Zone between North Korea and South Korea, where Hyun-Yong is originally from. In this conversation, we trace Hyun-Yong’s journey from his childhood fascination with insects to his current projects as a doctorate student. We talk about ADHD as both a challenge and a source of focus for him, and his use of poetry to describe nature exactly as it is.  Support the project: patreon.com/TherapyfortheWorld Music credits: “Limit 70,” licensed by Kevin MacLeod “Meditation” by Jules Massenet, from the Library of Congress Jukebox

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
What, what question I I'm asking is why we want to divide nature and artifact itself even before we said.

(00:11):
And, uh, is this boundary is a real thing? You mean the, my hand? of the microorganisms keep living in my hand, but I want to believe this hand is mine.
Not their, not their territory or something, the my hand is also nature.
Maybe some, I don't wanna believe it, but maybe some parasite living here.

(00:35):
Oh, I don't know.
But maybe some germ and microbiome and some virus and many other things still live in this hand.
But, uh, with, with current per perspective a culture, we erase them from hand.
I believe my hand is mine and nobody can occupy this. 9 00:03:05,373.14688784 --> 00:03:16,173.14688784 It is been about two or three years since we spoke for the last time, and I feel all the freshness of those earlier times being with you. 10 00:03:16,378.14688784 --> 00:03:19,768.14688784 Again, now in both of us in different countries. 11 00:03:19,828.14688784 --> 00:03:23,788.14688784 I was in Spain when we talked last, and now I'm in Argentina. 12 00:03:24,118.14688784 --> 00:03:26,968.14688784 You were in Korea, and now you're in the United States. 13 00:03:26,968.14688784 --> 00:03:29,98.14688784 It feels like we're playing worldwide. 14 00:03:29,188.14688784 --> 00:03:29,788.14688784 Tag. 15 00:03:30,693.14688784 --> 00:03:49,803.14688784 I would love to start off this conversation, uh, as we tend to by asking you if you can point to an experienced person, something, anything in your early childhood that you feel shaped the person you are today. 16 00:03:52,728.14688784 --> 00:03:57,723.14688784 Actually, I don't know reason why, but, uh, I. 17 00:03:58,608.14688784 --> 00:04:02,718.14688784 Was really young, like three or two years old. 18 00:04:02,928.14688784 --> 00:04:08,598.14688784 My parents still remember that I'm playing with dead bugs, body. 19 00:04:10,98.14688784 --> 00:04:12,888.14688784 I, I can't remember, but they told me that. 20 00:04:13,728.14688784 --> 00:04:24,108.14688784 I think the, the interest toward nature is kind of naturally bloomed in myself. 21 00:04:24,468.14688784 --> 00:04:26,983.14688784 So, and, uh, but, uh, with that. 22 00:04:27,948.14688784 --> 00:04:28,638.14688784 Interest. 23 00:04:28,698.14688784 --> 00:04:35,118.14688784 How I live right now is structured by the, some experience in my childhood. 24 00:04:35,568.14688784 --> 00:04:50,118.14688784 Like, uh, I feel like I read textbook in school, I sometimes found that human, how human distance themselves from nature. 25 00:04:51,78.14688784 --> 00:04:55,278.14688784 some is right, but uh, I feel a little bit. 26 00:04:55,893.14688784 --> 00:05:00,603.14688784 I need, I want to pursue more explanation about the statements. 27 00:05:01,413.14688784 --> 00:05:12,243.14688784 true or is it false? But at the time, I have no one to ask be because teacher told me that, uh, this is truth. 28 00:05:12,303.14688784 --> 00:05:17,283.14688784 You should take it as a natural law. 29 00:05:17,948.14688784 --> 00:05:24,303.14688784 But, uh, I keep asking about that question when I grown up until high school. 30 00:05:25,803.14688784 --> 00:05:36,603.14688784 And then, as you know, I drove off high school because I could, I believe that I couldn't find answer about that from textbook anymore. 31 00:05:37,533.14688784 --> 00:05:51,693.14688784 I drove off the high school and I instead, and then I get into DMG Research Institute follow them few years and then they. 32 00:05:52,593.14688784 --> 00:05:54,33.14688784 Adopt me as a member. 33 00:05:54,33.14688784 --> 00:06:18,488.14688784 Finally, then that's the start of my as your ecologist and said, uh, and then I get to Korean education and said biological engineering as my major when I was undergraduate student. 34 00:06:20,523.14688784 --> 00:06:27,393.14688784 At and at that time I realized that the science studying science itself still can't resolve. 35 00:06:27,573.14688784 --> 00:06:44,43.14688784 I still can't answer about the question I should study social science and philosophy and literature because I realized that the, the answer I am pursu pursuing right now is very. 36 00:06:46,323.14688784 --> 00:06:50,373.14688784 It's kind of, it's, it's, it's not very sharp back itself. 37 00:06:50,553.14688784 --> 00:06:56,763.14688784 It should be by culturally are the experience, experience of humans. 38 00:06:57,93.14688784 --> 00:07:09,243.14688784 And the question is, change it to why people want to believe that, why they, it is so important to believe that the human is different from other form of natures. 39 00:07:10,203.14688784 --> 00:07:14,193.14688784 So that's the point when I'm studying philosophy. 40 00:07:15,273.14688784 --> 00:07:22,383.14688784 what I'm saying right now is ask, I ask the same question different method. 41 00:07:24,153.14688784 --> 00:07:28,893.14688784 method like science, our philosophy and liter literature point, many other things. 42 00:07:29,763.14688784 --> 00:07:32,523.14688784 So, and uh, yeah. 43 00:07:32,523.14688784 --> 00:07:40,83.14688784 And in addition to that, we, as I told you, two years ago or three years ago, I had an A DHD. 44 00:07:40,288.14688784 --> 00:07:41,493.14688784 A DHD is sometimes. 45 00:07:42,483.14688784 --> 00:07:49,563.14688784 Helpful to pursue something, ideally, no matter what, the result will come. 46 00:07:50,373.14688784 --> 00:07:56,403.14688784 You know what I mean? I, when I focus on something, I don't care about else. 47 00:07:57,213.14688784 --> 00:07:58,953.14688784 So that's the motivation. 48 00:07:58,953.14688784 --> 00:08:03,453.14688784 How I can pursue, I, how I can keep, pursue. 49 00:08:03,453.14688784 --> 00:08:09,123.14688784 The question I really concerned about, without concerned about how my. 50 00:08:10,38.14688784 --> 00:08:11,778.14688784 Percent like career looks like. 51 00:08:13,8.14688784 --> 00:08:15,78.14688784 So I keep changing the major. 52 00:08:15,408.14688784 --> 00:08:22,38.14688784 Maybe people think I, I change the major too much or I am concerned about too. 53 00:08:22,128.14688784 --> 00:08:31,98.14688784 I, I am percent, I studied too many different things at once, but I, in myself, it might hurt. 54 00:08:31,128.14688784 --> 00:08:36,873.14688784 It's all connected, so it is Hmm, Pursue what I'd want to pursue. 55 00:08:36,993.14688784 --> 00:08:41,823.14688784 So is that, that right answer? I think it's a little bit abstract. 56 00:08:42,678.14688784 --> 00:08:44,928.14688784 it's a right and abstract answer. 57 00:08:45,168.14688784 --> 00:08:47,508.14688784 Abstract answers can also be right answers. 58 00:08:49,8.14688784 --> 00:08:50,928.14688784 I like the question you pose. 59 00:08:51,228.14688784 --> 00:08:54,888.14688784 I would phrase it this way and let me know if I'm understanding it correctly. 60 00:08:55,368.14688784 --> 00:09:01,578.14688784 Why are humans so insisting? On differentiating themselves from other animals. 61 00:09:03,283.14688784 --> 00:09:08,268.14688784 Other animals, other organisms, for example. 62 00:09:08,568.14688784 --> 00:09:09,198.14688784 Um. 63 00:09:12,753.14688784 --> 00:09:14,88.14688784 I mean the, yeah, for example. 64 00:09:15,318.14688784 --> 00:09:29,448.14688784 why, why existing is better than absence, kind of why existing as a human is better than existing, as other form of nature. 65 00:09:31,728.14688784 --> 00:09:36,498.14688784 Maybe it, we, we can find some answer, but, uh, I believe that it's. 66 00:09:39,363.14688784 --> 00:09:51,393.14688784 It's not the statement given by nature, it is given by ourselves, sometimes we confuse some statements as a nature role or something. 67 00:09:53,433.14688784 --> 00:10:04,988.14688784 You know what I mean? So you were saying earlier that you felt you were, your experience was shaped by your A DHD as well. 68 00:10:05,303.14688784 --> 00:10:05,633.14688784 Yeah. 69 00:10:05,738.14688784 --> 00:10:16,718.14688784 Generally, that leads to some distraction from a subject when would like to be more concentrated in. 70 00:10:16,718.14688784 --> 00:10:16,958.14688784 Right. 71 00:10:16,958.14688784 --> 00:10:21,38.14688784 It leads to more, um, to being a little bit more absent maybe. 72 00:10:21,248.14688784 --> 00:10:21,788.14688784 But you're. 73 00:10:22,208.14688784 --> 00:10:26,378.14688784 Almost explaining that your A DHD anchored you or organized you. 74 00:10:26,378.14688784 --> 00:10:27,398.14688784 How is that? So. 75 00:10:28,658.14688784 --> 00:10:30,113.14688784 Uh, yeah. 76 00:10:30,113.14688784 --> 00:10:30,473.14688784 Uh. 77 00:10:31,703.14688784 --> 00:10:37,853.14688784 I, I not, I don't know about the what that I, I don't know differently about the medical perspective. 78 00:10:38,63.14688784 --> 00:10:40,313.14688784 Just can describe what I experienced. 79 00:10:40,343.14688784 --> 00:10:56,123.14688784 So, uh, I believe my nature, who ha as a person who has a DHD Good thing is I think that this distracted. 80 00:10:57,293.14688784 --> 00:11:04,283.14688784 Hardship when I try to focus is a very minor things, characters derived from A DHD. 81 00:11:06,503.14688784 --> 00:11:12,293.14688784 I feel the A DHD helped me to don't see others. 82 00:11:12,623.14688784 --> 00:11:13,433.14688784 I don't care. 83 00:11:14,633.14688784 --> 00:11:20,843.14688784 I don't, when I try to do something, I don't care about the other result. 84 00:11:21,833.14688784 --> 00:11:24,143.14688784 For example, the career or my grade, or. 85 00:11:25,508.14688784 --> 00:11:42,158.14688784 My future job or something, just keep focusing on what I really concern and sometimes people may hard to understand why I am so obsessed to something this. 86 00:11:42,158.14688784 --> 00:11:53,768.14688784 Little question is, why is this so important to you or is it worthy than the some job? It can give you more money, but. 87 00:11:55,268.14688784 --> 00:11:55,718.14688784 I am. 88 00:11:55,718.14688784 --> 00:11:56,528.14688784 That's who I am. 89 00:11:56,528.14688784 --> 00:12:01,508.14688784 I don't care about the money and future job, just pursuing them. 90 00:12:02,318.14688784 --> 00:12:05,558.14688784 I believe this is one characteristic of A DHD. 91 00:12:05,708.14688784 --> 00:12:21,338.14688784 And the other thing is a D as a, I believe my A DHD helped me to become a person who have brave ment, encouragement, courage, who has courage. 92 00:12:22,823.14688784 --> 00:12:31,853.14688784 To explore many other things like philosophy, science, literature, poem, many other things. 93 00:12:33,203.14688784 --> 00:12:52,493.14688784 So yeah, some, I, I read a medical book that state that the a DG person has, uh, not good that imaging future The future outcome. 94 00:12:53,783.14688784 --> 00:13:18,293.14688784 For example, the mam melow, you ever heard about the mam Melow experiment? That there's an experiment that, uh, a per a child who at marshmallow first get, what's that lower income than a child who keep the marshmallow for future use? But thankfully. 95 00:13:19,88.14688784 --> 00:13:20,708.14688784 I'm a first, first child. 96 00:13:20,708.14688784 --> 00:13:27,248.14688784 I described first kid at the who eat marshmallow right now. 97 00:13:29,198.14688784 --> 00:13:40,503.14688784 That helped me to jump into something I really interested every time, so I think that helped me to pursue what I'm doing right now. 98 00:13:42,953.14688784 --> 00:13:50,368.14688784 It sounds like a deficit of attention on anything besides or beyond that which interests you, which is. 99 00:13:51,293.14688784 --> 00:13:59,63.14688784 A way to both redeem the experience of A DHD and also the marshmallow's first child. 100 00:13:59,453.14688784 --> 00:14:08,123.14688784 Um, the one who doesn't wait for the researcher to come back so that they might get another marshmallow as a reward, right? You're like, I want this now. 101 00:14:08,123.14688784 --> 00:14:10,493.14688784 I want the experience immediately. 102 00:14:10,498.14688784 --> 00:14:10,698.14688784 Uh. 103 00:14:11,78.14688784 --> 00:14:12,218.14688784 I, I hear that. 104 00:14:12,548.14688784 --> 00:14:13,178.14688784 I see that. 105 00:14:13,328.14688784 --> 00:14:15,188.14688784 I like the redeeming quality in that. 106 00:14:15,878.14688784 --> 00:14:23,678.14688784 You talked a little bit about the DMZ Ecology Research Institute, where you went, uh, after you dropped out of high school. 107 00:14:24,368.14688784 --> 00:14:26,378.14688784 I would love us to linger there for a little bit. 108 00:14:27,38.14688784 --> 00:14:35,528.14688784 Uh, what is, what is the DMZ for those who haven't heard of it or maybe don't recognize the acronym? And also did they, were they, um, very. 109 00:14:36,548.14688784 --> 00:14:50,583.14688784 Opening, were they very open to you coming on despite not having a high school degree? How did that, you know, how was that not a, an impediment? Actually, DNZ is a standardized. 110 00:14:51,968.14688784 --> 00:15:00,638.14688784 Zone between North Korea and South Korea because the actually the war is still going on. 111 00:15:01,28.14688784 --> 00:15:07,928.14688784 So that's the boundary where the very thin piece stay there. 112 00:15:08,588.14688784 --> 00:15:15,578.14688784 So DMZ is A-P-D-M-Z is a place where most people can't get in. 113 00:15:15,908.14688784 --> 00:15:20,948.14688784 Only military forces can get entered to this boundary sections. 114 00:15:22,823.14688784 --> 00:15:30,653.14688784 And there's some widely why wide belief as a culture in Korea. 115 00:15:31,283.14688784 --> 00:15:44,993.14688784 Maybe some other who live in other country that the DNZ is prestig prestigious wilderness because people can't go in there very often. 116 00:15:46,313.14688784 --> 00:16:05,63.14688784 And this DNZ Ecological Research Institute study, the DNZI just described, they got, was that some special permission to access to get in there by military forces and then Yeah. 117 00:16:05,303.14688784 --> 00:16:13,943.14688784 When I drop off high school and I knocked the door, the very first time they, they said they. 118 00:16:14,708.14688784 --> 00:16:26,348.14688784 Have some program for youth who, the, the place, the program where the youth can learn about research and what is ecology and many other things about the DMZ. 119 00:16:26,768.14688784 --> 00:16:30,638.14688784 And, but at the time, I want something more. 120 00:16:31,88.14688784 --> 00:16:39,548.14688784 I, I want to face the DMZ as a person, not as a high school student or something. 121 00:16:41,468.1468878 --> 00:16:41,813.1468878 I just. 122 00:16:43,58.1468878 --> 00:16:45,158.1468878 Follow them for one year. 123 00:16:45,278.1468878 --> 00:16:48,788.1468878 Just what they are doing in there and what they concern about it. 124 00:16:48,878.1468878 --> 00:16:58,478.1468878 What's their interest and what's their dream and vision and what kind of feature they are dream about by keep doing their research. 125 00:16:59,828.1468878 --> 00:17:04,928.1468878 And after one year of following, adopt me. 126 00:17:05,108.1468878 --> 00:17:08,558.1468878 They give me very small research job. 127 00:17:09,833.1468878 --> 00:17:15,653.1468878 But the, they realized that I'm very high, I'm very interested in insects. 128 00:17:15,893.1468878 --> 00:17:22,283.1468878 And at the time there were, there was no insect researcher in that organization. 129 00:17:23,273.1468878 --> 00:17:35,333.1468878 So yeah, I am doing the res insects research in the institution and they satisfy what I wrote. 130 00:17:36,863.1468878 --> 00:17:37,458.1468878 And then. 131 00:17:38,288.1468878 --> 00:17:38,648.1468878 Yeah. 132 00:17:38,828.1468878 --> 00:17:44,828.1468878 Finally they gave me the official title after one year and a half later. 133 00:17:46,308.1468878 --> 00:17:50,863.1468878 What drew you to insects? It is really tough question. 134 00:17:50,863.1468878 --> 00:18:06,703.1468878 You know, I even thought I am doing PhD in entomology department, but the why I'm doing this is because, but the reason I guess, I, I can only make a, some, a guess about it. 135 00:18:08,383.1468878 --> 00:18:09,283.1468878 They looks cool. 136 00:18:10,513.1468878 --> 00:18:12,913.1468878 they looks cool and they are everywhere. 137 00:18:13,603.1468878 --> 00:18:17,743.1468878 I mean, the bird, I cannot watch birds, but, but birds are very fast. 138 00:18:17,803.1468878 --> 00:18:18,913.1468878 They are flying away. 139 00:18:19,3.1468878 --> 00:18:29,473.1468878 But the insects time and their space is really different from ours, even though we are in the same space. 140 00:18:30,343.1468878 --> 00:18:36,823.1468878 So sometimes incept doesn't care about human so. 141 00:18:38,398.1468878 --> 00:18:46,73.1468878 I feel like they reveal their true behavior though staying Right, right. 142 00:18:46,138.1468878 --> 00:18:54,28.1468878 Left to there you know what I mean? The bird is hard to do that because they are flying away even very far distance. 143 00:18:56,278.1468878 --> 00:19:05,608.1468878 So yeah, I think the insect is easy to observe and they looks, they live, they, they stay there as they are so. 144 00:19:06,718.1468878 --> 00:19:16,738.1468878 I think that's the point I admired and, and I was kid, I, I, I must feel, uh, I must feel that, uh, they are cool. 145 00:19:17,963.1468878 --> 00:19:18,773.1468878 They look cool. 146 00:19:19,443.1468878 --> 00:19:19,733.1468878 Yeah. 147 00:19:21,173.1468878 --> 00:19:31,673.1468878 You talked a little bit also, or about how there was this idea in Korea that the DMZ, uh, de the demilitarized zone was up. 148 00:19:32,233.1468878 --> 00:19:40,693.1468878 Very nature, abundant, untouched wonder, you know, of, of the natural world. 149 00:19:41,53.1468878 --> 00:19:51,223.1468878 And I got the sense when we were speaking earlier that that myth was sort of toppled when you actually got there. 150 00:19:51,223.1468878 --> 00:19:59,428.1468878 What did you find instead? Instead of it being a pristine wonder? What I saw there was A DMZ. 151 00:19:59,818.1468878 --> 00:20:17,128.1468878 People want to believe that DMZ, actually, DMZ is itself as outside from human touch, the, there's a zone called CCZ, which is the era of the actual DMZ, but buffer error. 152 00:20:17,128.1468878 --> 00:20:20,398.1468878 Also highly unaccessible too. 153 00:20:22,723.1468878 --> 00:20:31,363.1468878 No more civilization people who have been lived there for a very, very long time. 154 00:20:31,423.1468878 --> 00:20:32,473.1468878 From ancestor. 155 00:20:33,283.1468878 --> 00:20:39,523.1468878 They can, they can have some land in there, but they also can't stay there. 156 00:20:39,583.1468878 --> 00:20:43,303.1468878 They need to go back to outside of the boundary went sundown. 157 00:20:44,23.1468878 --> 00:20:49,303.1468878 anyway, what I found found from my research is. 158 00:20:50,218.1468878 --> 00:21:11,38.1468878 What people, this very, the people, the small number of people who do farming in the CCG is the key factor of the biodiversity of DMZ because, uh, there's some concept of, you know, the Koreans grow a lot of rice. 159 00:21:12,223.1468878 --> 00:21:31,33.1468878 People in there, people who do farming in CCZ, they still use the traditional array because there's, they can't do any construction in CCZ, so they still dig a hole and, uh, what's that? Store water in this mud hole. 160 00:21:31,843.1468878 --> 00:21:36,823.1468878 they use this water to provide some, uh, for irrigation purpose. 161 00:21:38,803.1468878 --> 00:21:53,323.1468878 And, uh, my research revealed that, uh, with this traditional model hall, the rice padfield and nearby wetlands show higher diversity just the wetland. 162 00:21:53,443.1468878 --> 00:21:54,853.1468878 Leave it as this is. 163 00:21:56,113.1468878 --> 00:22:07,63.1468878 So my, what I realize is actually this kind of human touch, why people want to erase this contribution given by human. 164 00:22:08,233.1468878 --> 00:22:16,603.1468878 Why people want to believe that DMZ has a prestigious wilderness and that's the reason why the that high. 165 00:22:16,933.1468878 --> 00:22:20,293.1468878 That's the only reason of the high diversity of the DMZ. 166 00:22:21,133.1468878 --> 00:22:27,223.1468878 People still keep using, even scientists, scientists research paper refer this term. 167 00:22:27,613.1468878 --> 00:22:28,693.1468878 They start like this. 168 00:22:28,903.1468878 --> 00:22:35,623.1468878 DMG is one of the most prestigious wilderness in art, kind of so. 169 00:22:36,178.1468878 --> 00:22:38,98.1468878 Why even scientists want to believe that. 170 00:22:38,398.1468878 --> 00:22:51,958.1468878 So that's the moment when I have interest in anthropology because what I believe is the disbelief is derived from culture or historical background. 171 00:22:52,888.1468878 --> 00:22:59,68.1468878 And my conclusion was that we still want to keep our dream that. 172 00:23:00,88.1468878 --> 00:23:01,48.1468878 In somewhere. 173 00:23:01,198.1468878 --> 00:23:12,538.1468878 There's some true nature, even though the outside of the, that area will lose almost every nature, but there must be some idle nature still there somewhere. 174 00:23:13,858.1468878 --> 00:23:17,368.1468878 People choose DMZ as that idle nature belief. 175 00:23:18,838.1468878 --> 00:23:23,503.1468878 That's what I think so, but yeah. 176 00:23:24,763.1468878 --> 00:23:40,303.1468878 So there's, and this kind of miscon actually triggers some issues because there's a western side of the DNG, uh, CCG and eastern side of CCG Eastern side is very mountain hills, so there's no farming there. 177 00:23:40,633.1468878 --> 00:23:44,263.1468878 So Governmenting this western side of CCG. 178 00:23:44,938.1468878 --> 00:23:49,528.1468878 Is touched by human relatably more often than east side. 179 00:23:49,768.1468878 --> 00:23:53,548.1468878 So west side value is lower than east. 180 00:23:53,608.1468878 --> 00:24:14,98.1468878 So they try, they have plan of highway, they actually do construct, try to construct some building and very highways on western side of DMZ because they think it's not true nature, but it's not true because of the human touch. 181 00:24:14,518.1468878 --> 00:24:18,688.1468878 The Western side of the DMG show higher diversity than eastern side of the DMG. 182 00:24:19,798.1468878 --> 00:24:39,748.1468878 So I what? Yeah, I want to break this kind of miscon miscommunication and misbelief, because other issues in conservation science and biological sector also has this kind of biased so, and. 183 00:24:40,458.1468878 --> 00:24:48,168.1468878 Yeah, it sounds like you're doing a lot of myth busting and a lot of, um, disruption of binary thinking. 184 00:24:48,228.1468878 --> 00:24:53,28.1468878 I can think of at least two binaries that you've been sort of circling around. 185 00:24:53,718.1468878 --> 00:25:04,488.1468878 The first more connected to the question that's animated youth since those early days, and that's human animal, right? Like or human, non-human. 186 00:25:04,788.1468878 --> 00:25:19,168.1468878 What is so? What is so special about that binary or does it even exist? That's one and then another, I hear you speaking about now around DMZ and I think also around your current research, which I'd love to ask you about is. 187 00:25:19,768.1468878 --> 00:25:22,738.1468878 Nature, artificial, right? Like nature and nonna. 188 00:25:23,938.1468878 --> 00:25:33,958.1468878 Uh, where, where are you? How and where are you studying that now? Uh, it was really hard for us to get together today because you are on the fields every day. 189 00:25:34,228.1468878 --> 00:25:38,458.1468878 Uh, and you wrote to me that you were on insect time. 190 00:25:38,848.1468878 --> 00:25:46,408.1468878 Uh, so what does that mean? And also what are you working on these days? Yeah. 191 00:25:46,408.1468878 --> 00:25:49,168.1468878 These days I'm working on the solar field. 192 00:25:50,158.1468878 --> 00:25:57,238.1468878 I mean the, What are those? What are solar fields? yeah, solar field a very. 193 00:25:58,393.1468878 --> 00:26:05,53.1468878 Wide area, which is covered by the solar panel generate some electricity. 194 00:26:07,873.1468878 --> 00:26:20,323.1468878 And the it, my, including myself, the first impression is I don't like at the, when first hold about the solar field, I don't like that. 195 00:26:20,323.1468878 --> 00:26:26,118.1468878 Uh, solar field is very artificial and sound scary because it generate electricity so. 196 00:26:26,953.1468878 --> 00:26:45,463.1468878 It must be harmful to nature, nature itself, but the, when I actually do some research in solar field, I realize that there are still abundance of biodiversity and flourishing lives in there. 197 00:26:46,753.1468878 --> 00:26:54,433.1468878 The key was that the solar field, the peop people don't care about the vegetation in solar field. 198 00:26:56,488.1468878 --> 00:27:00,838.1468878 Uh, if they can, let's say, keep their panels in there. 199 00:27:02,518.1468878 --> 00:27:08,818.1468878 the biodiversity and the composition of species is not that different from natural vegetation. 200 00:27:09,298.1468878 --> 00:27:14,278.1468878 Sometimes is better because solar field creates some shade these days. 201 00:27:14,333.1468878 --> 00:27:17,878.1468878 The, the summer where the temperature is higher and higher. 202 00:27:18,598.1468878 --> 00:27:20,338.1468878 So actually. 203 00:27:21,628.1468878 --> 00:27:25,258.1468878 And pollinators use benefit of this cooling effect. 204 00:27:25,258.1468878 --> 00:27:36,328.1468878 I, I, I can actually see the bomber v take a rest under the panel, like 2:00 PM or something when the is too, too hot. 205 00:27:37,408.1468878 --> 00:27:41,38.1468878 Anyway, so I'm keep this discussion. 206 00:27:41,98.1468878 --> 00:27:56,83.1468878 What's, what's the, what's the boundary between artificial and nature? Why you, I, I myself want, want, wanted to consider this place as an artifact area, which can damage in nature. 207 00:27:56,563.1468878 --> 00:28:04,363.1468878 I mean, that this is not the concept about the human can contribute biodiversity or something. 208 00:28:04,573.1468878 --> 00:28:15,103.1468878 What, what question I I'm asking is why we want to divide nature and artifact itself even before we said. 209 00:28:16,258.1468878 --> 00:28:28,108.1468878 And, uh, is this boundary is a real thing? You mean the, my hand? of the microorganisms keep living in my hand, but I want to believe this hand is mine. 210 00:28:28,168.1468878 --> 00:28:34,528.1468878 Not their, not their territory or something, the my hand is also nature. 211 00:28:35,383.1468878 --> 00:28:40,33.1468878 Maybe some, I don't wanna believe it, but maybe some parasite living here. 212 00:28:40,333.1468878 --> 00:28:40,663.1468878 Oh, I don't know. 213 00:28:40,933.1468878 --> 00:28:47,443.1468878 But maybe some germ and microbiome and some virus and many other things still live in this hand. 214 00:28:47,443.1468878 --> 00:28:58,963.1468878 But, uh, with, with current per perspective a culture, we erase them from hand. 215 00:28:59,653.1468878 --> 00:29:03,553.1468878 I believe my hand is mine and nobody can occupy this. 216 00:29:05,128.1468878 --> 00:29:11,698.1468878 So I think this is the same question about this, the same understanding about this solar field. 217 00:29:13,438.1468878 --> 00:29:24,358.1468878 So for example, we believe this indoor condition as a human territory, but we still find a lot of bugs. 218 00:29:24,388.1468878 --> 00:29:27,418.1468878 Even in my home, I dunno where they came from. 219 00:29:27,508.1468878 --> 00:29:30,73.1468878 Maybe they live there forever, but the. 220 00:29:31,828.1468878 --> 00:29:47,938.1468878 My home itself is still occupied by many other bugs, but we think then should we this bug, what? How? How should we consider this bug? Why they live there. 221 00:29:48,148.1468878 --> 00:29:53,188.1468878 It's not nature, but once they live is nature. 222 00:29:53,308.1468878 --> 00:29:57,28.1468878 They like this place and they adopt to this place. 223 00:29:57,388.1468878 --> 00:30:03,673.1468878 And how can they divide this place from their life? That's the question right from solar field. 224 00:30:05,603.1468878 --> 00:30:05,893.1468878 It's. 225 00:30:06,238.1468878 --> 00:30:11,848.1468878 To hear you talk so many different tangents open up that I'd like to explore together. 226 00:30:11,968.1468878 --> 00:30:16,378.1468878 Um, I'll just mention two things before I ask you something related to this. 227 00:30:16,558.1468878 --> 00:30:25,288.1468878 One is that around me right now, if I look up into the corners of my living room, there are at least 15 spiders. 228 00:30:25,888.1468878 --> 00:30:30,898.1468878 Um, I have drawn some. 229 00:30:32,533.1468878 --> 00:30:36,803.1468878 Uh, disapproving glances from some visitors to my home who've said like. 230 00:30:37,468.1468878 --> 00:30:50,548.1468878 Why are there spiders in your house and why are there spider webs just on the ceiling? And of course, we like, think of that as like a sign of how your space is not being protected or you're not, um, you're not cleaning your, your home. 231 00:30:50,548.1468878 --> 00:30:52,138.1468878 I clean my house every weekend. 232 00:30:52,618.1468878 --> 00:30:53,758.1468878 I clean my house all the time. 233 00:30:54,28.1468878 --> 00:30:56,308.1468878 But I love those spider webs there. 234 00:30:56,518.1468878 --> 00:31:08,908.1468878 So I wanted to mention that to, to say that I'm with you on the, on the, on the disturb, on the, on the interest in disturbing that idea that a home is not also an ecosystem. 235 00:31:08,908.1468878 --> 00:31:14,878.1468878 It can be like, I, I live here with 15 spiders and a cat, you know, plus probably a lot of different organisms that I can't see. 236 00:31:15,778.1468878 --> 00:31:26,608.1468878 Um, and I also wanted to share on in that vein that I stayed in an Airbnb in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, uh, about a month ago. 237 00:31:27,478.1468878 --> 00:31:36,688.1468878 And, um, uh, I was with my mother and she saw a, a bug in her room and was a little bit. 238 00:31:37,303.1468878 --> 00:31:37,903.1468878 Panicked. 239 00:31:38,413.1468878 --> 00:31:43,153.1468878 Uh, we were staying, the Airbnb was like on the side of a mountain, so there was a mountain right next door. 240 00:31:43,483.1468878 --> 00:31:49,723.1468878 Um, so I guess it was a, a, a sign that like a lot of, you know, nature could enter. 241 00:31:50,263.1468878 --> 00:31:52,843.1468878 And she got scared and she's like, I don't wanna know what you do with it. 242 00:31:52,843.1468878 --> 00:31:54,433.1468878 Just do, please do something about this. 243 00:31:54,433.1468878 --> 00:31:58,33.1468878 And I went to the kitchen and I grabbed a cup and I grabbed the cutting board and I, you know. 244 00:31:58,558.1468878 --> 00:32:14,938.1468878 Trapped the bug there and I brought it to the window and it left to the house, and I was so glad to see that's not the, that's not, that would, that would be an irrelevant story if it weren't for what happened next, which is that the following morning while I was just having my coffee on the couch, I noticed behind the couch that the Airbnb owner had left. 245 00:32:15,553.1468878 --> 00:32:24,643.1468878 A, a, a a section, a sign that said in Portuguese, I think it's like Salva insect, which is like, save insects. 246 00:32:25,33.1468878 --> 00:32:28,663.1468878 And it was like a, a, a piece of, of, of like laminated paper. 247 00:32:28,663.1468878 --> 00:32:37,813.1468878 So a sturdy piece of paper plus a big Tupperware that you used for that same purpose that I had gone into the kitchen, right, to find the cup and a cutting board. 248 00:32:37,933.1468878 --> 00:32:39,523.1468878 But she had set one aside for. 249 00:32:40,113.1468878 --> 00:32:46,653.1468878 Airbnb guests to use for that purpose, which I thought was so noble and I never seen something like that before. 250 00:32:47,223.1468878 --> 00:32:49,113.1468878 Um, yeah. 251 00:32:51,713.1468878 --> 00:32:52,383.1468878 Experience. 252 00:32:53,303.1468878 --> 00:32:54,283.1468878 Totally admirable. 253 00:32:54,403.1468878 --> 00:32:54,673.1468878 Yeah. 254 00:32:54,673.1468878 --> 00:33:07,543.1468878 I wanted to ask you, um, you know, connected to all of this, you, you were, you've said that you find that there's a modern essence inherent in conservation biology and that you like to think of alternate, alternate biology. 255 00:33:08,353.1468878 --> 00:33:17,578.1468878 What is that all about? Before we jump into that, uh, Explanation. 256 00:33:17,638.1468878 --> 00:33:22,528.1468878 Uh, let me talk to you about the one episode conservation project in Korea. 257 00:33:23,818.1468878 --> 00:33:41,638.1468878 Don Bele, who eating Don and rolling down, you know, and, uh, uh, Don Bele, uh, has totally gone from Korean Peninsula 50 years ago, extinct right now regionally, and, but the. 258 00:33:43,393.1468878 --> 00:33:43,693.1468878 There. 259 00:33:43,693.1468878 --> 00:33:58,993.1468878 There are several reasons why they go extinct or went extinct because the people use a lot of medicine for cow right now, and Don Bele can consume that kind of dongs. 260 00:33:59,803.1468878 --> 00:34:10,723.1468878 And the other thing is the Don Bele live in very muddy and dusty road or something, but these days all the roads are covered by concrete. 261 00:34:11,893.1468878 --> 00:34:17,773.1468878 they can, can't make home, they, they, they're whole to dwell or something. 262 00:34:18,73.1468878 --> 00:34:28,213.1468878 And the other region is Don Viter require a lot of large space to support their population. 263 00:34:28,423.1468878 --> 00:34:39,943.1468878 But, uh, there's no many patches remains in Korean Peninsula and the, are called about the few years ago Korean environmental. 264 00:34:40,918.1468878 --> 00:34:41,668.1468878 Government. 265 00:34:42,358.1468878 --> 00:35:07,918.1468878 They set a plan for restoring Don Be project, they do test of the DNA of the Korean extinct Korean, DNA, uh, Don Beal specimen seven years ago on, and they extract some DNA and, uh, compare the DNA with the, which population in this world are the most, is the most closed one from what we. 266 00:35:08,413.1468878 --> 00:35:17,953.1468878 What this peninsula had before, they find that Mongolian Dong Beetles, DNA is highly matched with the Korean dong beetles. 267 00:35:18,13.1468878 --> 00:35:22,273.1468878 So they bout dong beetles from Mongolia. 268 00:35:22,423.1468878 --> 00:35:23,383.1468878 They, I heard that. 269 00:35:23,383.1468878 --> 00:35:32,953.1468878 That they pay 500 each individuals of beetles and anyway, yeah, they bought a lot of Don Beetles from. 270 00:35:33,598.1468878 --> 00:35:38,188.1468878 Mongolia and they released this Don Beto some island. 271 00:35:38,908.1468878 --> 00:35:40,618.1468878 Island, nobody living there. 272 00:35:40,978.1468878 --> 00:35:49,318.1468878 And then as I described these days, how it differently so their don can be consumed by Don Beto. 273 00:35:50,548.1468878 --> 00:36:01,738.1468878 And there was a issue occurred that these Mongo and Don Beto, no matter what their DNA is, they it but in Korean peninsula. 274 00:36:02,443.1468878 --> 00:36:05,173.1468878 horse never been native before. 275 00:36:05,533.1468878 --> 00:36:07,63.1468878 It's brought by human use. 276 00:36:08,53.1468878 --> 00:36:19,63.1468878 uh, they also bring some horse from some air put, uh, said, release this horse to the island. 277 00:36:20,383.1468878 --> 00:36:30,103.1468878 And, but, and I saw the interview that the scientist who take a charge for this project, he mentioned that don't be too. 278 00:36:30,838.1468878 --> 00:36:35,938.1468878 very valuable because they, they are decomposer in nature. 279 00:36:36,238.1468878 --> 00:36:42,868.1468878 So these days the human was that the ecosystem lost a lot of decomposer. 280 00:36:42,898.1468878 --> 00:36:48,28.1468878 So we need to revive them who can serve as a decomposer in nature. 281 00:36:48,748.1468878 --> 00:36:51,508.1468878 But make this straight. 282 00:36:51,688.1468878 --> 00:36:57,688.1468878 The island who have never lived, which means the cow have cow have never lived in this island. 283 00:36:58,78.1468878 --> 00:36:59,998.1468878 And the the Don Korean. 284 00:37:00,388.1468878 --> 00:37:17,728.1468878 Name of Don Beto is Kung Beto because in Korea they always rely on Kung, but now they eat ung and so what I see right now, this don be tool leaving some male new eating something new. 285 00:37:18,598.1468878 --> 00:37:27,478.1468878 Only DNA is same, but scientists under scientific perspective, people believe that this is successful. 286 00:37:28,123.1468878 --> 00:37:38,683.1468878 Revive of Korean, don't Beto, because the DNA is saying, so what I'm saying right now is why this is conservation. 287 00:37:38,983.1468878 --> 00:37:40,3.1468878 This is something new. 288 00:37:41,203.1468878 --> 00:37:50,863.1468878 Grow something new and place them to something new and let them go some new direction why they want to call it conservation. 289 00:37:51,853.1468878 --> 00:37:56,473.1468878 think there's no reason of science, uh, science can't explain this. 290 00:37:56,563.1468878 --> 00:38:13,3.1468878 What I can, what I'm thinking is only culture region and historical region and why people want to restore this don be tool and what they believe and what they hope can explain why they are doing this. 291 00:38:14,53.1468878 --> 00:38:17,743.1468878 And, uh, think about, don't think this. 292 00:38:18,148.1468878 --> 00:38:23,368.1468878 So-called revived conserva, conserved dong. 293 00:38:23,368.1468878 --> 00:38:32,518.1468878 Vito can do any decomposing behavior in nature because they still rely on human giving. 294 00:38:32,878.1468878 --> 00:38:34,888.1468878 Dongs brought by Mongolia. 295 00:38:36,598.1468878 --> 00:38:37,978.1468878 Imported from Mongolia. 296 00:38:38,158.1468878 --> 00:38:40,108.1468878 Actually, scientists import some kind. 297 00:38:40,228.1468878 --> 00:38:46,883.1468878 Was it Horse stone from Mongolia? And still give it as a, as a feed to. 298 00:38:48,613.1468878 --> 00:38:49,123.1468878 Beetles. 299 00:38:49,453.1468878 --> 00:39:01,363.1468878 So organism who 100% rely on what human give to them, how they do work, as how they do act as a decomposer in nature. 300 00:39:02,983.1468878 --> 00:39:15,43.1468878 but under human, uh, under scientific, uh, scientists perspective in makes sense because they have same DNA from the Korean don beat with Korean Don Beat two and they are. 301 00:39:17,428.1468878 --> 00:39:29,98.1468878 Don't be tool should work as a decomposer no matter what context is, because the point of science is every fact can be abstract and can be repeated no matter where you are. 302 00:39:30,628.1468878 --> 00:39:41,278.1468878 But as a phenomenologist, I believe what I see right now, there's nothing, there's no de composure in this island and nothing revived. 303 00:39:42,358.1468878 --> 00:39:43,258.1468878 That's that's the point. 304 00:39:43,708.1468878 --> 00:39:43,888.1468878 So. 305 00:39:46,393.1468878 --> 00:39:55,423.1468878 What I, I, what I'm thinking is the modern boundaries between human and nature, DNA and environment and species concept itself. 306 00:39:55,513.1468878 --> 00:39:59,563.1468878 Even the species concept itself is sometimes ambiguous like this. 307 00:40:00,463.1468878 --> 00:40:06,103.1468878 Don be tool their DNA is same, but they work differently. 308 00:40:06,973.1468878 --> 00:40:13,783.1468878 So what is space species here? Can we define the species as in several characters like de Composure or DNA or. 309 00:40:14,173.1468878 --> 00:40:21,883.1468878 Body shape, or I think those kind of things are not enough to define species itself as we see right now. 310 00:40:21,883.1468878 --> 00:40:36,853.1468878 So I think this, the belief, the tendency we have right now is we can differentiate this from that and we, we know what is difference. 311 00:40:37,213.1468878 --> 00:40:42,703.1468878 But think when I, I'm studying more about the biology. 312 00:40:43,648.1468878 --> 00:40:54,448.1468878 I realize that these boundaries are derived from human imagination are the way how we experience the world and what we want to believe. 313 00:40:54,598.1468878 --> 00:40:57,478.1468878 So that's the essence. 314 00:40:57,478.1468878 --> 00:40:59,788.1468878 I'd like to change it. 315 00:41:01,348.1468878 --> 00:41:02,963.1468878 So, yeah. 316 00:41:03,423.1468878 --> 00:41:23,488.1468878 And The alternative biology means the, I think too, when I realized these issues, I can approach two different way, the first way is, or just the current ecology in current ecological ways. 317 00:41:23,818.1468878 --> 00:41:29,878.1468878 The other way is how about the device, some. 318 00:41:31,93.1468878 --> 00:41:32,593.1468878 New, not new. 319 00:41:32,713.1468878 --> 00:41:39,103.1468878 Alternative biology, which can also cover these kind of issues. 320 00:41:40,38.1468878 --> 00:41:53,893.1468878 The, the theory that can explain these kind of issues, which is integrated into culture are philoso speaker many other domains, knowledge because sometimes scientists, scientists believe that. 321 00:41:54,793.1468878 --> 00:42:03,343.1468878 Not, maybe not all scientists, but the, the scientists noticed believe that they are independent from what they are doing right now. 322 00:42:03,733.1468878 --> 00:42:16,453.1468878 Because what they are doing right now is the law of universe, not of human, that's the power of science, but the, they believe they are independent from what they're doing right now. 323 00:42:16,458.1468878 --> 00:42:16,688.1468878 But, uh. 324 00:42:17,563.1468878 --> 00:42:32,353.1468878 For now what I see is they are highly integrated into what they are doing right now, and they, what they are doing is also shaped by they think and how they behave and the way how they experience things. 325 00:42:32,653.1468878 --> 00:42:41,743.1468878 So I think humans should agile, observer, human should be integrated into biology and that makes much more sense. 326 00:42:44,443.1468878 --> 00:42:57,13.1468878 We were talking about this earlier in the context of poetry also, right? Like, uh, erasing the, the, the boundary of like observing something, erasing the. 327 00:42:58,843.1468878 --> 00:43:11,603.1468878 Conception that one is observing something and instead being that thing or observing the world through the eyes of that thing instead, uh, I think, I think this is related to a word that you used earlier, earlier. 328 00:43:12,518.1468878 --> 00:43:22,303.1468878 Uh, phenomenology, you know, you identify as a phenomenologist and I'm wondering what that perspective means for you and what it brings to the table. 329 00:43:24,818.1468878 --> 00:43:25,358.1468878 Yes. 330 00:43:27,308.1468878 --> 00:43:46,688.1468878 As I described the question about the boundaries, it started from the very, very early of mind, and I find that there's some philoso trend can cover this kind of blurred boundaries. 331 00:43:48,811.3227038 --> 00:43:51,426.3227038 is they don't try to. 332 00:43:52,716.3227038 --> 00:43:58,356.3227038 Set of boundary between emotion logic between body and soul. 333 00:43:59,196.3227038 --> 00:44:04,956.3227038 They start from what they witness right now without any understanding and interpretation. 334 00:44:05,346.3227038 --> 00:44:13,686.3227038 They try their best to just start from here, and they accept the boundary. 335 00:44:13,776.3227038 --> 00:44:16,386.3227038 The blood boundary is the true nature itself. 336 00:44:17,536.3227038 --> 00:44:31,761.3227038 And this, with this what? That the fundamental, which is in front of me, it exists first and then try to experience this or explain this. 337 00:44:32,1.3227038 --> 00:44:39,291.3227038 We overlap our concept, our our way on our way of think on the phenomenon. 338 00:44:40,41.3227038 --> 00:44:45,891.3227038 And this explain the, what's that? my critics on science. 339 00:44:46,656.3227038 --> 00:44:56,916.3227038 Like Don Restoration project and my, what's that way of writing poem? I try to be the fan. 340 00:44:57,306.3227038 --> 00:45:07,776.3227038 I try to write about the feminine itself and yeah, it's also, give me some, how we should be different as a ecologist in the future. 341 00:45:07,896.3227038 --> 00:45:11,166.3227038 Because these days many boundaries are blurred, like. 342 00:45:11,601.3227038 --> 00:45:23,1.3227038 Gender or human or non-human or cyborg or, I think this is a better way to understand the word. 343 00:45:23,151.3227038 --> 00:45:39,21.3227038 Right? So that's the reason why I called the current science as modern science, which is everything is so simple to divide this and that, but I think the future is more. 344 00:45:40,821.3227038 --> 00:45:44,841.3227038 Mixture in mixture and entanglement of many other things. 345 00:45:46,311.3227038 --> 00:45:54,906.3227038 So yeah, that's the point of ology I try to pursue Taking, equality. 346 00:45:56,676.3227038 --> 00:45:58,656.3227038 taking things as they are. 347 00:45:58,956.3227038 --> 00:46:04,296.3227038 Uh, you know, I said, you said what they witness right now, which are lovely principles. 348 00:46:04,296.3227038 --> 00:46:09,426.3227038 I, I, I'm drawn to other examples of this worldview. 349 00:46:10,206.3227038 --> 00:46:12,276.3227038 In my field psychology. 350 00:46:12,276.3227038 --> 00:46:26,706.3227038 I, you know, it's, I, I really respect the phenomenological psychology tradition because it does that as well, right? It says, let's look at this as though it hasn't already been. 351 00:46:27,921.3227038 --> 00:46:30,351.3227038 Understood prior to the observation. 352 00:46:30,711.3227038 --> 00:46:43,11.3227038 I think of that sometimes when I'm, when I, like I meet a new patient at the hospital, I have their case files on hand if I'd like to read about what others have said about them and what diagnoses they have, for example. 353 00:46:43,401.3227038 --> 00:46:51,951.3227038 But I'm, I've been encouraged to, and I've gladly chosen the path of meeting the person first. 354 00:46:52,251.3227038 --> 00:46:56,871.3227038 Right? Meeting the person first, seeing what you see in front of you, who this person. 355 00:46:58,116.3227038 --> 00:47:09,936.3227038 Appears to you to be perhaps then later you might compliment that perspective, that original witnessing with some case file, right? And uh, to use a more mundane example. 356 00:47:10,641.3227038 --> 00:47:16,911.3227038 I don't know about you, but when I go see a movie, I do not wanna know what other people have said about it or what they've said. 357 00:47:16,911.3227038 --> 00:47:21,861.3227038 It's about, even, even like the, the one sentence synopsis of a series on Netflix. 358 00:47:22,71.3227038 --> 00:47:28,41.3227038 I try to not read it because it conditions you, it tells you this is going to be about this. 359 00:47:28,221.3227038 --> 00:47:29,631.3227038 For instance, this is gonna be. 360 00:47:29,916.3227038 --> 00:47:31,56.3227038 About conservation. 361 00:47:31,86.3227038 --> 00:47:45,36.3227038 And so you decide to look at the dung beetle through a conservation lens when it's so far from that, right? It's like, because you use, because that word is used, it frames the whole discussion around dunk beetles when perhaps it's a discussion that belongs somewhere else. 362 00:47:45,216.3227038 --> 00:47:49,446.3227038 It belongs in GMO research, you know, it belongs in something else entirely. 363 00:47:50,106.3227038 --> 00:47:52,386.3227038 So, um, really, really fascinating. 364 00:47:53,226.3227038 --> 00:48:08,196.3227038 Another, um, another term that you've used is the tu lucine, which is taken as a different way, as a step beyond the Anthropocene, which some of us are familiar with. 365 00:48:08,196.3227038 --> 00:48:10,746.3227038 But I, I wonder if you might speak to that a little bit. 366 00:48:10,986.3227038 --> 00:48:17,586.3227038 What is the lucine, how is the, and what is the Anthropocene as well, since it's not a, a term everyone's familiar with. 367 00:48:18,36.3227038 --> 00:48:18,876.3227038 Um, yeah. 368 00:48:18,876.3227038 --> 00:48:24,411.3227038 What, why do you, why do you hold those terms essential in the work you do? Yes. 369 00:48:25,71.3227038 --> 00:48:27,201.3227038 Uh, thank you for asking that question. 370 00:48:27,291.3227038 --> 00:48:29,901.3227038 And uh, actually, uh, before we talk about the. 371 00:48:31,101.3227038 --> 00:48:42,231.3227038 I should that clearly that, uh, this kullu is different from, from the old God the novel written by the Lovecraft. 372 00:48:42,531.3227038 --> 00:48:56,871.3227038 This kullu is came from very old God of native people in America, and the this concept is borrowed from the donor Haraway's recent works. 373 00:48:57,456.3227038 --> 00:49:20,921.3227038 She's an anthropology, anthropologist, and also a very pioneer to blur everything what we believe and this, so there is some movement in anthropology and philosophy some science scientists that, uh, we should rethink about. 374 00:49:22,146.3227038 --> 00:49:34,146.3227038 The way we try, we, the way we use to understand the word and the, this they proposed, the donor harway proposed tuin instead of Anthropocene. 375 00:49:34,296.3227038 --> 00:49:42,6.3227038 Because even in this stage, we still want to center ourself to define the word. 376 00:49:43,551.3227038 --> 00:49:44,721.3227038 Means human rights. 377 00:49:44,721.3227038 --> 00:49:50,61.3227038 So of course this, Anthropocene is a good word to express. 378 00:49:50,61.3227038 --> 00:50:01,341.3227038 The how human history, the modern human history trigger some issues in word scale, but the they, they want to criticize. 379 00:50:02,211.3227038 --> 00:50:10,881.3227038 How about chicken sin? You know what chicken sin is? Because this is a joke thrown by the donor, Harry, that the. 380 00:50:12,111.3227038 --> 00:50:22,341.3227038 Chicken bones uh, if the alien digger dig digger land and they will find a lot of chicken bone in our area area. 381 00:50:22,401.3227038 --> 00:50:34,851.3227038 But we still want to present human as a representative term define this word We regret what we have done with. 382 00:50:35,736.3227038 --> 00:50:39,786.3227038 So that's that it, yeah, that's the attitude use. 383 00:50:39,906.3227038 --> 00:50:46,386.3227038 The reason why I use the Tuin and the Klu is a kind of God to care. 384 00:50:46,386.3227038 --> 00:50:48,696.3227038 Everything about came from Earth. 385 00:50:49,596.3227038 --> 00:50:55,596.3227038 I mean the soil, it doesn't differentiate it, this and that. 386 00:50:56,586.3227038 --> 00:51:01,506.3227038 It just let them be flourish and care about them. 387 00:51:02,706.3227038 --> 00:51:02,946.3227038 So. 388 00:51:04,446.3227038 --> 00:51:14,586.3227038 The alternative term they present of Yeah, the, this movement scholar scholars movement present as alternative term. 389 00:51:15,711.3227038 --> 00:51:24,666.3227038 Why are you drawn to this term? Because I think I also, I myself also don't like use Anthropocene. 390 00:51:24,756.3227038 --> 00:51:28,206.3227038 I second child of enter anymore. 391 00:51:29,166.3227038 --> 00:51:29,916.3227038 You know, human. 392 00:51:30,366.3227038 --> 00:51:30,966.3227038 Human thing. 393 00:51:30,966.3227038 --> 00:51:31,506.3227038 Human death. 394 00:51:32,496.3227038 --> 00:51:36,66.3227038 Anyway, the anthropology, uh, Anthropocene. 395 00:51:36,246.3227038 --> 00:51:50,226.3227038 So I tried to find the alternative and I already read about the donor Harris works, and I liked her works, and she proposed some nice alternative. 396 00:51:50,466.3227038 --> 00:51:55,551.3227038 So I adopted, and as, as you know, the boundary itself is the. 397 00:51:56,766.3227038 --> 00:51:59,376.3227038 The key issue to myself. 398 00:51:59,556.3227038 --> 00:52:09,246.3227038 So the way how this ktu native God the boundary is I love it. 399 00:52:10,566.3227038 --> 00:52:12,396.3227038 That's the reason why I choose this time. 400 00:52:12,576.3227038 --> 00:52:20,81.3227038 Maybe chicken, chicken balancing be, but the, I have no guts to use that. 401 00:52:25,161.3227038 --> 00:52:33,231.3227038 This question of, um, of blurring the boundary is one, as you've said, that has animated your research through different fields. 402 00:52:33,231.3227038 --> 00:52:44,901.3227038 You know, you said you've, you say and show, and I think this conversation has also shown that you've sought answers in, in philosophy, in science, in observation, right. 403 00:52:45,441.3227038 --> 00:52:45,891.3227038 And. 404 00:52:46,671.3227038 --> 00:52:51,381.3227038 Another, and in and in childhood play with, um, with bugs. 405 00:52:51,561.3227038 --> 00:52:59,511.3227038 But one, one sphere that you've also alluded to earlier that we haven't talked a lot about is writing literature, poetry. 406 00:52:59,511.3227038 --> 00:53:03,771.3227038 Specifically in your case, I know you've recently started writing again. 407 00:53:04,431.3227038 --> 00:53:29,181.3227038 What, how is that an approach to blurring the boundary? How do you go about writing poetry? Well, in what ways is it a tool for you to engage in this process of blurring the boundary? Uh, the way these days, the, writing way I try to is. 408 00:53:30,921.3227038 --> 00:53:33,501.3227038 Just describe what I see right now. 409 00:53:33,801.3227038 --> 00:53:40,611.3227038 Just describe as they are, don't overwhelm my emotion and my feeling, or something on this object. 410 00:53:40,881.3227038 --> 00:53:48,411.3227038 Just describe what they are doing and just describe what I can from this landscape right now. 411 00:53:48,831.3227038 --> 00:53:49,491.3227038 No order. 412 00:53:51,351.3227038 --> 00:53:52,251.3227038 Just describe it. 413 00:53:52,281.3227038 --> 00:53:56,91.3227038 Of course, this is poetry, so it shouldn't be so random. 414 00:53:56,151.3227038 --> 00:54:14,961.3227038 I should also pursue the aesthetic value them, at least the very first structure is deriving from this very bare witness of landscape and yeah, just. 415 00:54:16,191.3227038 --> 00:54:19,911.3227038 That's the way how I approach about the poem right now. 416 00:54:20,241.3227038 --> 00:54:29,541.3227038 And this is also equal to my as a pathologist because we are so familiar to overlap something. 417 00:54:29,721.3227038 --> 00:54:31,341.3227038 But poem is mine. 418 00:54:31,341.3227038 --> 00:54:37,821.3227038 This poem is mine, so I can control everything this short writing. 419 00:54:38,301.3227038 --> 00:54:39,891.3227038 So I try to. 420 00:54:41,706.3227038 --> 00:54:48,156.3227038 Pursue what I want to, so as a pathologist, I just don't want to understand them. 421 00:54:48,216.3227038 --> 00:54:54,1.3227038 Just describe it as it is, and you know what I mean? S. 422 00:54:54,661.3227038 --> 00:55:01,332.8114641 Totally you mentioned objects that you would write about certain objects. 423 00:55:02,352.8114641 --> 00:55:08,187.8114641 What objects draw your attention? Oh yeah. 424 00:55:08,187.8114641 --> 00:55:13,587.8114641 It's also mostly derived from ecological objects like, uh. 425 00:55:15,807.8114641 --> 00:55:38,787.8114641 My, the most recent poetry poem is about the Frisbee and the dog chasing the fris, chasing the Frisbee, and the, was it the shark? I heard that in Florida that many sharks make some circles and die, uh, because of the, climate change. 426 00:55:39,807.8114641 --> 00:55:43,347.8114641 I, I encountered the news anyway, this Frisbee and. 427 00:55:43,842.8114641 --> 00:56:00,402.8114641 Dog chasing the Frisbee and this shark who makes some weird round, and I myself also make a circle on earth to not to die or something. 428 00:56:00,522.8114641 --> 00:56:00,912.8114641 Anyway. 429 00:56:01,152.8114641 --> 00:56:12,282.8114641 And this, this circulation also overlap to videotape, which can be go forward and backward and those kind of. 430 00:56:12,957.8114641 --> 00:56:18,807.8114641 The series of image which can link together and just describe it. 431 00:56:19,800.481596 --> 00:56:37,0.481596 In this circle as we close out today in this circle, what has been your working answer, your working response to the question that you've been posing since high school? Working sir. 432 00:56:39,555.481596 --> 00:56:56,25.481596 Uh, yeah, the working answer is truth and belief is different and, but truth is not always valuable than belief. 433 00:56:57,975.481596 --> 00:57:03,975.481596 I appreciate the effort of conservation scientists, including the DONG V two researcher. 434 00:57:05,490.481596 --> 00:57:09,180.481596 Because I value their hope and I know it's beautiful thing. 435 00:57:11,430.481596 --> 00:57:17,310.481596 I don't criticize their effort, but treat them fair. 436 00:57:19,110.481596 --> 00:57:20,10.481596 No hiding. 437 00:57:20,280.481596 --> 00:57:21,480.481596 No hiding something. 438 00:57:21,840.481596 --> 00:57:25,140.481596 No, no cheating on something. 439 00:57:25,290.481596 --> 00:57:28,740.481596 Just make it fair as a, as a as it is. 440 00:57:29,100.481596 --> 00:57:31,830.481596 And then let's discuss again. 441 00:57:32,955.481596 --> 00:57:35,535.481596 With this clear picture, that's what I pursue. 442 00:57:36,255.481596 --> 00:57:43,935.481596 So yeah, many things derive from belief, uh, but the belief also can be valuable than truth itself. 443 00:57:44,145.481596 --> 00:57:46,575.481596 That's the attitude I'm having right now. 444 00:57:49,380.481596 --> 00:57:50,760.481596 It's a wonderful working answer. 445 00:57:51,180.481596 --> 00:57:52,140.481596 Thanks for sharing it. 446 00:57:52,500.481596 --> 00:57:57,570.481596 Thanks for connecting today and thanks for the work you're doing. 447 00:57:57,720.481596 --> 00:58:03,270.481596 I find that you are troubling truths and also beliefs. 448 00:58:03,945.481596 --> 00:58:08,535.481596 Questioning them, blurring them, and it's, it's refreshing and also deeply calming. 449 00:58:08,625.481596 --> 00:58:12,195.481596 I feel very calm talking to you, so thank you so much. 450 00:58:13,440.481596 --> 00:58:18,435.481596 Thank you for asking me this wonderful interview and. 451 00:58:19,755.481596 --> 00:58:24,675.481596 Well, it's always pleasure to having conversation with you. 452 00:58:29,713.4718846 --> 00:58:30,763.4718846 Thanks for being here. 453 00:58:31,333.4718846 --> 00:58:38,863.4718846 If this conversation resonated with you, consider reviewing therapy for the world or sharing the link with someone who might appreciate it. 454 00:58:39,523.4718846 --> 00:58:42,973.4718846 Until next time, speak with care and listen deeply.