July 22, 2025 • 67 mins
Sol Reiman is a geographer, climate activist, and internationally recognized environmental educator. We talk about the challenges and possibilities of climate work in the Global South, how personal history shapes political commitment, and what it means to communicate climate issues with both empathy and strategy. Sol reflects on her early leadership roles in government and nonprofits, the lessons she learned about community from her Jewish upbringing, and the playful spirit she carries into professional settings. We explore the tension between systemic change and individual action, the role of storytelling in climate organizing, and the importance of local knowledge in shaping global solutions. Support the project: patreon.com/TherapyfortheWorld Music credits: “Limit 70,” licensed by Kevin MacLeod “Meditation” by Jules Massenet, from the Library of Congress Jukebox
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
.9999999994if you, um, erased Formula One, uh, so to, to stop their emissions. 2 00:00:08,789.9999999995 --> 00:00:13,469.999999999 That is really tiny compared to, I don't know, the images in China.
(00:14):
Um, and of course if we make everything relat new, then nothing is important, and every change is important, but we, I think we, we need to find balance. 4 00:00:24,989.999999999 --> 00:00:41,670 Uh, and that's the activity, perfecto, uh, doing what's possible, and also trying to think in a systemic way, uh, to try to, to motivate others and not only keeping with our own small contribution. 5 00:00:50,959.5 --> 00:00:58,459.5 Welcome to Therapy for the World, an interview series with people working across the spectrum of self-care and world care. 6 00:00:59,179.5 --> 00:01:11,569.5 I'm Dan Sikorski, a writing teacher and therapist, and the other voice you hear is so Reman, a geographer, climate activist, an internationally recognized environmental educator. 7 00:01:12,289.5 --> 00:01:16,879.5 We recorded this on July 16th at half past two in the afternoon. 8 00:01:17,359.5 --> 00:01:18,354.5 Here's our conversation. 9 00:01:31,919.5 --> 00:01:38,609.5 I don't know how, um, how do you say, like the hero path, how do you say it in English? Yeah, exactly. 10 00:01:38,609.5 --> 00:01:50,399.5 I think there is something about that related to climate advocacy, maybe because, uh, you have, you find a lot of challenges along the way and, and you have to find. 11 00:01:51,719.5 --> 00:01:59,129.5 I don't know, make alliances and find ways to, to sort out the challenges in order to keep going. 12 00:01:59,579.5 --> 00:02:22,379.5 So I think maybe something about that, that it's just now that I'm making the connection and also I, I think empathy, that was something that we were briefly like mentioning before, like the ability to understand because you read stories of people from all around the world, a little bit more about how other people work through the world.
(02:23):
.5I love the piece about hero's journey First, I, I also love the piece about empathy, but thinking about the climate struggle as like the most epic hero's journey that I'm not quite sure how it's gonna end, will it end with Total failure? Will it be an epic tale? I don't know. 14 00:02:47,534.5 --> 00:02:54,314.5 I am, I, you are lucky that just yesterday I had, I had a coffee with someone who is more optimistic than me. 15 00:02:54,764.5 --> 00:03:00,104.5 So I, uh, come today with more optimism that I have days ago. 16 00:03:00,554.5 --> 00:03:19,289.5 But I don't know, it's a challenging time, but I choose to believe my friend who was very sure that we will be okay and that, um, we have to adapt like there's no other way and, and that we will So we're, we're gonna touch on, mm-hmm.
(03:20):
.5now, but I do, I do need to ask you what, what is your general state of being then, if not optimism and like how, how were you feeling before this conversation and what was said during it over coffee that brought you to the other side? Um, it is, I, I know what we have to do because the solutions are out there and, and we know the, the, the challenge that we have ahead, and we know that we need every sector on board. 18 00:03:52,574.5 --> 00:04:00,884.5 And, well, particularly now, it's a really challenging time to see every sector getting on board. 19 00:04:01,124.5 --> 00:04:21,284.5 And we are actually, eh, like watching, um, the, I don't know, like the tendencies to turning around under a lot of enterprises that are, um, um, like minimizing their environmental action and, and their. 20 00:04:21,974.5 --> 00:04:44,624.5 Eh, carbon on neutral objectives and so on, eh, so I was feeling quite disappointed on the one hand, um, like septic of the possibility of actually getting to, to avoid disaster. 21 00:04:44,919.5 --> 00:04:52,574.5 At the same time, I know that it's not that one day we're going to wake up and there will be an apocalypse or something like that. 22 00:04:52,574.5 --> 00:04:58,514.5 It will be gradually and we are already going to the consequences of the climate crisis. 23 00:04:58,814.5 --> 00:05:18,404.5 But it's true what my friend says, that because we're living these consequences, uh, it is more easy to, to show, uh, decision makers that if they don't, um, make changes to the way we are going through all these reality now. 24 00:05:19,49.5 --> 00:05:25,139.5 They are the ones who are going to lose money and I don't know, political favors. 25 00:05:25,264.5 --> 00:05:29,699.5 And, um, it's not the next generation anymore. 26 00:05:30,299.5 --> 00:05:33,329.5 So that's something to be us. 27 00:05:33,329.5 --> 00:05:40,349.5 Hope we must change now and everyone will be, um, exposed to the consequences.
(05:42):
.5I don't wanna Um.
hope from you.
So I'm, I'm gonna limit my response, but I, no, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm kidding.
And I'm not, I, because I, I tend to exist on a little bit of a, of a more pessimistic side of things too.
At the same time, we wouldn't be having this conversation if we didn't think it matters, um, and that it mattered.
(06:02):
So we can leave that there and come back to it.
I want to start at the beginning.
.5Where did your interest in working in this field come from? I really don't know. 36 00:06:16,394.5 --> 00:06:18,629.5 Uh, I ask myself that a lot. 37 00:06:20,24.5 --> 00:06:24,194.5 Uh, when did it start? And it's funny because, um. 38 00:06:26,234.5 --> 00:06:57,479.5 Um, when I watch, like, look back and I'm find, I don't know, some paperwork that I did in primary school or secondary school, I find like, like, uh, how do you say, um, like if there res that something was going okay, like to that di direction, like I found, uh, I don't, um, something that I made like in third grade about recycling and so on, and I was really passionate about that. 39 00:06:58,499.5 --> 00:07:12,419.5 Um, but because I was really curious about everything, um, also in secondary school I was, um, the only one interested in the geography, uh, course. 40 00:07:13,439.5 --> 00:07:17,579.5 Um, really interested when all of my friends were not. 41 00:07:18,659.5 --> 00:07:29,549.5 Uh, but I didn't pay much attention to that, and I really, um, found it, uh, challenging to, to choose, uh, what to study in university. 42 00:07:30,569.5 --> 00:07:40,529.5 Uh, but in that process I understood that there was something about the intersection between the social issues and the environment. 43 00:07:41,159.5 --> 00:07:46,859.5 Um, and, and starting to understand that was the first step. 44 00:07:47,249.5 --> 00:07:56,849.5 And that's how I started geography looking for those answers and to deep, like, dive deep into that universe of environmental issues. 45 00:07:56,849.5 --> 00:08:06,959.5 Um, and then I was lucky enough to start working in the climate change area of the government, of the city of Buenos Aires. 46 00:08:07,994.5 --> 00:08:16,454.5 And from the huge universe of environmental issues, uh, I found climate change and the adaptation agenda. 47 00:08:16,844.5 --> 00:08:24,284.5 And at the same time, I was joining a youth led, um, advocacy group of climate action. 48 00:08:25,334.5 --> 00:08:29,204.5 Um, that was also like I was all the time learning by doing. 49 00:08:29,204.5 --> 00:08:33,14.5 And in that process, understanding what I was more passionate about. 50 00:08:33,524.5 --> 00:08:48,284.5 In that process, I understood that what drives me the most is the adaptation and resilience agenda, because in the end it gathers together everything that I was looking for when I chose what to study. 51 00:08:48,284.5 --> 00:08:58,784.5 That is the social aspect and the environmental aspect at the same time, because resilience is strengthening, uh, those who are most exposed to the effects of the climate crisis. 52 00:08:59,474.5 --> 00:09:01,544.5 So it does make sense.
(09:01):
it does make sense and, and it also bypasses the question we were asking earlier about whether it's an optimistic or pessimistic outlook, because the most realistic.
Thing to notice is that people are going to be suffering.
People are suffering now.
So in a way, it almost doesn't entertain that question about whether things are getting better or worse. 57 00:09:24,599.5 --> 00:09:24,929.5 Yeah. 58 00:09:25,404.5 --> 00:09:25,624.5 Yes. 59 00:09:25,654.5 --> 00:09:28,744.5 It's just like, let's take action and, and keep going.
(09:29):
Totally.
.5In geography, were you alone in being interested in working climate change or was it a field that also brought in folks who were interested in that, in that, Um, in that I, when I started studying, I felt like I was the more, the more interested, the most interested in between my peers in the climate agenda. 62 00:09:51,734.5 --> 00:09:59,834.5 Um, they were all interested, but I was like passionate about it and wanting to, I knew that was my field. 63 00:10:00,434.5 --> 00:10:12,614.5 Um, and there were not as many courses with the climate perspective, but then, uh, more like the first, the topic became more and more important in the agenda. 64 00:10:12,974.5 --> 00:10:25,214.5 And because of that, I, I also believe, uh, more people started joining the, the, the degree, uh, because of that perspective. 65 00:10:25,574.5 --> 00:10:32,924.5 So now there are more environmentalists in the studying geography than when I started.
(10:34):
.5Did you consider as your interest in environmentalism bloomed? Did you consider shifting over to another degree or another field? No, but well, here in, in Buenos Aires at least, um. 67 00:10:49,844.5 --> 00:10:59,84.5 When I chose, uh, to sell geography, there were not, uh, so many options, uh, like besides geography. 68 00:10:59,84.5 --> 00:11:10,604.5 There was, um, like environmental science, uh, but there, it, it was not what I was looking for because it was science and I, I wanted like the intersection with society. 69 00:11:10,934.5 --> 00:11:23,714.5 And also because it was in the faculty of, um, I don't know how you translate it, but I like, uh, I don't know, Mia, like field studies or something like that. 70 00:11:24,44.5 --> 00:11:34,34.5 So it was really focused on the, uh, everything like the countryside and how do you grow, uh, fields and crops and so on. 71 00:11:35,714.5 --> 00:11:39,404.5 Um, and I, I knew that, that that was not what I was looking for. 72 00:11:39,404.5 --> 00:11:48,524.5 And then you have some, um, careers in private universities that I, I didn't wanted to go, I wanted to go to the University of Buenos Aires. 73 00:11:49,4.5 --> 00:11:55,304.5 Now there are more opportunities and maybe I had more options if I started my career today. 74 00:11:55,724.5 --> 00:12:04,364.5 What I also knew from the first moment was that I would have to create my own path because it was very specific. 75 00:12:04,604.5 --> 00:12:11,864.5 Um, and that I knew where I wanted to to go, but I didn't know how I would get there. 76 00:12:12,404.5 --> 00:12:23,654.5 And I knew that yeah, I would have to keep, um, finding courses besides university and opportunities to keep learning what I was looking for.
(12:25):
I know it's an, uh, an unpopular, which is a bad word.
Let's go with not a very common pursuit here.
Uh, geography.
I know it's a small department.
I think it is.
I mean, honestly, I haven't met anyone in the states who studied geography as their major.
You get people who studied, um, you know, GIS and specific like applications of geography, especially in courses.
(12:49):
I don't.
No, if I have a full grasp of what it is, geography.
I mean, I, I also kind of stayed with my middle school geography class understanding of we learn the capitals of the different countries and the different ways that the tic tectonic plates, um, assemble to form mountains or earthquakes or, and so on.
But what, what it clearly, it's more than that.
(13:10):
.5What, what is the field of geography at the university level? Um, well, I was lucky enough to have a similar approach with geography in secondary school, so it was not. 89 00:13:24,899.5 --> 00:13:31,889.5 Uh, it was really aligned, but to sum it up, it will be like the relationship between societies and their territories. 90 00:13:32,639.5 --> 00:13:36,509.5 So you would analyze, it's really abstract. 91 00:13:36,569.5 --> 00:13:50,579.5 I don't know, but, but, uh, it's some type in that because, uh, and so you have urban geography and you study cities that related with the societies that inhabit the cities and rural geography. 92 00:13:50,579.5 --> 00:14:01,649.5 And you study how, uh, societies relate with, uh, the, the rural spaces and how do we organize them and what can we do about it. 93 00:14:02,9.5 --> 00:14:03,359.5 Um, I don't know. 94 00:14:03,704.5 --> 00:14:20,489.5 Um, I also studied, um, courses related to ecosystems or also related to maps and how do we represent, uh, territories and, and also, um, information in the like territorial approach. 95 00:14:20,594.5 --> 00:14:21,524.5 It's really interesting. 96 00:14:21,629.5 --> 00:14:23,579.5 It's like, um, sociology. 97 00:14:23,969.5 --> 00:14:27,389.5 But with a really grounded approach. 98 00:14:28,409.5 --> 00:14:33,644.5 Um, so yes, it's, it's, it's quite specific.
(14:35):
You sold me on it with the phrase a society's relationship to its territory.
That does feel super broad and super.
Um.
Like that, it touches so many different fields and ways of understanding daily life from like transportation means to architecture, to even like materials that are used on a daily basis.
(15:05):
And, and I'm, I'm wondering, I imagine that there's also a segment of the, of the, of the field that studies society's broken relationship with its territory or like it, the ignored relationship with the territory.
I feel like so many places are ungrounded right now.
They could be existing anywhere. 106 00:15:23,69.5 --> 00:15:24,809.5 Yeah, that's really interesting. 107 00:15:25,589.5 --> 00:15:27,124.5 And it's, uh, it has a lot to do with geography. 108 00:15:27,584.5 --> 00:15:32,729.5 Uh, I was actually thinking about that with friends the other day. 109 00:15:33,329.5 --> 00:15:58,19.5 Uh, this concept of like in Spanish EZ or like non places that are these places where time and and place are just the same anywhere you are in the world, like, uh, malls or airports, supermarkets, of course if you pay attention to the specific, you will find different, uh, things to buy, but you could be anywhere. 110 00:15:58,529.5 --> 00:16:04,169.5 Um, and it's really interesting because where is the, the culture of the place and so on. 111 00:16:04,169.5 --> 00:16:11,789.5 Casinos so and so, um, yeah, that's something that is really, um, that we study in geography.
(16:12):
There's no marker in that place of where it, even, where it is.
It could be.
I like the way you said that it could be anywhere.
.5You mentioned earlier that you had, um, explicitly chosen to study at the public university at the, when you were, say Buenos Aires, Mm-hmm.
not to go to a private one.
.5What was behind that? Decision Uh, I knew the University of Buenos Aires was one of the most prestigious universities here in Buenos Aires. 118 00:16:39,519.5 --> 00:16:42,554.5 Uh, I really wanted to go through that experience. 119 00:16:42,854.5 --> 00:16:54,614.5 Uh, in particular the options that I was looking for, uh, related to environment and societies, uh, were not available in prestigious and university at the time. 120 00:16:54,824.5 --> 00:16:59,954.5 Um, so the most important one will be that one. 121 00:17:00,584.5 --> 00:17:11,114.5 And I also wanted to, uh, pop out a little, um, my Jewish institution's bubble that I had growing up. 122 00:17:11,114.5 --> 00:17:15,824.5 So that was also something I was really looking forward to.
(17:16):
until what point, uh, did you be, were you very involved with those, with that Jewish bubble? 'cause you popped out of it, but like you still stayed inside of it, uh, to the extent that you wanted to.
.5So at what, uh, uh, you know, what were, what was your involvement with that bubble? What were you doing in Jewish organizations? Um, well, I, I went to primary and secondary Jewish private schools on the one hand, and also, and I think you are referring to that other part, um, every weekend I spent it on a Jewish country club. 125 00:17:50,369.5 --> 00:18:09,209.5 Um, and since I was 17, I spent it in charge of groups of kids and teenagers from different ages, um, with activities and with non-formal education and in charge of planning their camps and so on. 126 00:18:09,569.5 --> 00:18:16,19.5 So it was like all the time being around people with the same values and the same background. 127 00:18:16,44.5 --> 00:18:19,19.5 And, um, I don't know. 128 00:18:19,19.5 --> 00:18:21,989.5 I wanted to meet other views of the world.
(18:24):
.5Something I hear often from people who did have I.
involvement with the Jewish camp groups and Jewish, um, groups of being in charge of them Also, like, teenagers in charge of younger kids.
I did the same thing.
I hear often from folks who've had that experience that the lessons learned there and almost like the mentality that goes into that work stays with you.
(18:53):
In many ways it like pops up in strange new places.
I was watching an old at, um, a being like a leader of these groups at a bonfire in a very, like, particularly Jewish setting the other day.
And just like, you know, gathering the group in songs and um, and like playing games and stuff.
(19:16):
.5wonder where you've seen that, that part of you, that energy come up since then? Yeah, I think it's a huge part of my personality and of my leadership today. 137 00:19:30,509.5 --> 00:19:32,969.5 It has shaped me completely. 138 00:19:33,419.5 --> 00:19:48,389.5 I spent six years in charge of groups of different ages and also, eh, and almost as important as that, working with teams of, uh, with people that were my age. 139 00:19:48,389.5 --> 00:19:56,129.5 Um, and in that, in those cases, I was also like the environmentalist of, of the team. 140 00:19:56,519.5 --> 00:20:04,589.5 And I was keen on every kid to actually pick up their, their waste and throwing them, um, so on. 141 00:20:04,949.5 --> 00:20:10,469.5 But what actually stayed with me was, on the one hand, like. 142 00:20:10,534.5 --> 00:20:22,294.5 The knowledge on planning of activities and projects, um, and I, and also the innovative style. 143 00:20:23,224.5 --> 00:20:34,894.5 Uh, you have to plan with creativity and with innovation, and that led me to create projects that are really different from everything that I knew, uh, in as a professional. 144 00:20:35,914.5 --> 00:20:45,729.5 Um, so I, I think the way I work today as a professional has a lot to do with everything that I learned until that, until when I was America. 145 00:20:46,749.5 --> 00:21:04,234.5 Um, and also, and also playing while you work, like, um, the, the value of, of playing with others, um, I think it's really important and something that we forget growing up.
(21:05):
When you first started entering, almost said like business spaces, but spaces like of Buenos Aires.
I'm not sure it was a bus.
Maybe it is a business space.
I wonder what you found when you got there.
.5Were you, were you feeling like there was room for this type of playful energy, or did it ask something else of you? Um, well, when I started as a professional, uh, I had a simultaneous, uh, start, eh, I started on the one hand on the government of the city of Enos Aires. 151 00:21:42,244.5 --> 00:21:47,984.5 Uh, uh, we were two of us, me and my impostor syndrome together, uh, hand in hand. 152 00:21:48,164.5 --> 00:21:55,139.5 And I was like feeling really, uh, tiny and like looking up to the ones that were, uh, there before me. 153 00:21:55,139.5 --> 00:21:56,279.5 And it was in the pandemic. 154 00:21:56,279.5 --> 00:22:01,559.5 So it was in a, from home, uh, really challenging. 155 00:22:01,604.5 --> 00:22:06,749.5 And, um, I felt like I couldn't, um. 156 00:22:07,849.5 --> 00:22:10,879.5 Be a hundred percent myself at the beginning. 157 00:22:10,909.5 --> 00:22:17,179.5 So I would just try to understand how everyone else was behaving and trying to adapt to those ways. 158 00:22:18,229.5 --> 00:22:46,730.5 Um, but at the same time, I was joining the leadership advocacy group, um, also in the pandemic and also, um, not virtual, but eh, it was a more horizontal space where I was able to actually plan eh activities to get to know each other, try to advocate for in-person meetings and many things that I. 159 00:22:47,384.5 --> 00:22:52,94.5 Knew they were important because of my leadership, um, experiences. 160 00:22:53,24.5 --> 00:22:59,54.5 And, um, it was essential for shaping the team the way it did. 161 00:22:59,759.5 --> 00:23:06,699.5 Uh, and then also, uh, the government of the city of Bueno State was my first professional experience. 162 00:23:06,999.5 --> 00:23:22,94.5 And then when I was almost finishing my process there, eh, someone new, eh, joined the team and she was able to create a more, a friendlier environment. 163 00:23:22,124.5 --> 00:23:30,299.5 Um, and I also learned from her that it was possible at work to actually be yourself and play. 164 00:23:30,479.5 --> 00:23:35,819.5 And I don't know, uh, have a dynamic that I was more comfortable with. 165 00:23:36,39.5 --> 00:23:45,979.5 And since then, in the rest of my professional experiences, I was also able to, I don't know, um, put the, the importance of the. 166 00:23:47,239.5 --> 00:24:03,979.5 The bonds with the team in the center and to try to, to actually make friends and to, um, to pay attention and, and, and give time to, to bonding with, uh, and to presenting yourself and. 167 00:24:05,429.5 --> 00:24:25,739.5 Um, like, I don't know, getting to know each other conversations in lunchtime, uh, playing and having fun and I don't know, looking really what, like looking what the other needs and, and also understanding what I needed in order to be my, to give my best. 168 00:24:26,549.5 --> 00:24:49,709.5 Um, yeah, those are are some things that I started learning, eh, as a also, and maybe at the beginning I was a little shy as a professional to actually bring them with me, but then my imposter syndrome stayed back and I was able to keep going and opening doors with all my toolkit of.
(24:55):
I love the examples you cited of ways in which that playful energy actually looks on the ground asking for people's stories.
It's almost like bringing the person aside from the skillset into the team, the, the nuance and the idiosyncrasy of each individual.
That's part of it.
In you over the course of, of the years that you've worked in, in climate work, you've worked not just with a couple different types of issues.
(25:23):
We, we were talking about, about climate resilience work earlier, but you've also done advocacy.
You have also worked in like different types of settings.
We've, we've mentioned government, you've mentioned advocacy.
You've also been a bit in the private sector too, from what I've gathered.
.5What, what has been your as you've navigated these different settings? Are there limitations to working in one versus the other? Um, I, in my, the closest I worked in the, like, private sector was first as a consultant with different, um, I don't know, teams, uh, and then also in the multilateral sector in a, in a multilateral development bank. 178 00:26:12,974.5 --> 00:26:17,504.5 Um, um, let me think. 179 00:26:17,804.5 --> 00:26:26,174.5 Um, I think there are similarities and there are differences of course. 180 00:26:26,504.5 --> 00:26:31,904.5 Eh, some has to do, have to do with the, with the scope of each. 181 00:26:33,74.5 --> 00:26:35,534.5 Um, it's not the same making decisions for. 182 00:26:36,419.5 --> 00:26:54,689.5 The whole population of a city or population of different cities or countries or the, the impact that a specific enterprise or, or sector has, uh, and related to the scope or the bureaucracy that is behind. 183 00:26:55,559.5 --> 00:27:05,39.5 And of course that also implies, um, a dependency at least until now. 184 00:27:05,39.5 --> 00:27:22,504 And that's how I see it, um, of having someone that is convinced that this agenda is a priority that opens you add more or less or, um, did, where did you have that more so, um, someone who's prior, who had the priority of climate work.
(27:24):
I. 186 00:27:25,444.5 --> 00:27:31,109.5 and it also depends on how do you see that priority, um. 187 00:27:32,84.5 --> 00:27:40,4.5 Like reflected because I don't know, in, in many opportunities. 188 00:27:40,64.5 --> 00:27:44,144.5 Um, and yes, that has, I found it many times. 189 00:27:45,44.5 --> 00:27:54,794.5 You work with people that understand that it is, this is urgent, it is a priority and you have to move everything that you can in order to, to put the climate agenda as a priority. 190 00:27:54,794.5 --> 00:27:58,844.5 But that does not reflect on the budget that they give you. 191 00:27:59,624.5 --> 00:28:08,54.5 So you have to be knocking doors and, and see whose empathy do you, um, get to. 192 00:28:08,504.5 --> 00:28:11,834.5 Yeah, so that's a challenge. 193 00:28:11,834.5 --> 00:28:14,504.5 Um, I think. 194 00:28:16,379.5 --> 00:28:20,189.5 For not having worked as much in the private sector. 195 00:28:20,189.5 --> 00:28:29,999.5 I think in the private sector, I don't know if there's more willingness, but there's less bureaucracy in order to become this entire reality. 196 00:28:29,999.5 --> 00:28:38,969.5 So if it's a, if it's something that's related to the business and will not make you lose money, I think it's easier. 197 00:28:39,899.5 --> 00:28:42,899.5 Um, I don't know. 198 00:28:42,989.5 --> 00:28:57,509.5 It's challenging to actually, um, become something that, or turn something that you know, that you have to, to, to, to make a reality, to actually turn it into something concrete.
(28:58):
You alluded earlier to people having varying degrees of a sense of urgency around climate work and on the, know, uh, most extreme, lowest end of that spectrum is a, is a complete climate negation denial.
(29:18):
is a kind way of putting it.
How do you understand that there are people out there who believe that this is not case? I mean, I, I thought as the years have gone by, I'm continuously more surprised that there are people who still believe that way.
It's, it's denigrating of me.
It's a, it's a judgmental way of seeing perspectives.
(29:41):
I take that, I admit it.
wonder how you understand that there are people who believe that this is not an urgency. 206 00:29:51,59.5 --> 00:29:58,589.5 Um, I think that has to do with, uh, the way that we now consume information. 207 00:29:59,159.5 --> 00:30:28,349.5 So each will believe what they want to believe, and it's really hard to fight that if they're not willing to listen to views that oppose their, um, I, I came to the decision, at least myself, to avoid fighting or wasting energy in people who ies the existence of climate change. 208 00:30:28,889.5 --> 00:30:38,39.5 And I think there's, there is possible dialogue, but I prefer, uh, investing my energy in those that already. 209 00:30:38,744.5 --> 00:30:48,344.5 Agree that this is a, a challenge and then to discuss what we can do about it if they should not be the, the more committed or anything. 210 00:30:48,764.5 --> 00:30:52,274.5 But, um, I don't know. 211 00:30:52,274.5 --> 00:30:55,694.5 I think it's energy better spent.
(30:58):
We were talking off the air about, you're, you're talking about climate messaging, right? On a, on a, in a broad way.
We were talking off the air about a study that showed how communicating to populations, in quotes, the six key truths about climate change leads to better attitudes and behaviors around this issue and.
(31:27):
Kind of going with what you were saying, the first of those, only, the first of those key truths is climate change is real, right? Climate change is happening.
The other five key truths on that first one.
other five are, it's us, right? It's human caused experts agree.
So there's a scientific consensus.
(31:49):
It's bad, meaning this is not good for us others care, meaning I'm not alone in, in feeling this way.
It's a generalized sentiment.
And the last one is, there's hope.
So there's something we can do.
I thought it was a, a lovely way to summarize the different types of messaging that could be communicated around this issue.
(32:13):
.5Which of those is one that you're feeling that you have been working on recently? Um, I am thinking because there is something about the tone that I think shapes everything. 224 00:32:35,519.5 --> 00:32:53,939.5 Uh, I don't, for example, if we pick the responsible responsibility I can of all these six points, it's like we can say it in a catastrophical way or we can say it in a hopeful, hopeful way or in a, I don't know. 225 00:32:53,939.5 --> 00:32:55,589.5 And that changes everything. 226 00:32:56,39.5 --> 00:32:58,829.5 Um, I think. 227 00:32:59,534.5 --> 00:33:17,144.5 And, and it's a, at least here in, in Argentina, there, there is a, a spectrum of how does people, um, or which strategies do each group or yeah, group or sector choose to communicate. 228 00:33:17,144.5 --> 00:33:23,294.5 And there is the more, this is a crisis and, uh, the system is collapsing and so on. 229 00:33:23,624.5 --> 00:33:34,664.5 And it's really interesting, I think also to talk to you about this because there is something about the words that are chosen to, to speak about this that changed everything. 230 00:33:35,504.5 --> 00:33:40,724.5 Um, so the collapse and, and gives a sense of there's nothing you can do about it. 231 00:33:41,809.5 --> 00:33:45,14.5 Uh, and that can lead to many parts. 232 00:33:45,104.5 --> 00:33:51,109.5 But one is like, okay, so I just keep on living my own life until we die and that's it. 233 00:33:51,974.5 --> 00:33:53,864.5 And so it leads to inaction. 234 00:33:55,184.5 --> 00:33:56,349.5 Uh, but at the same time, if there is. 235 00:33:56,999.5 --> 00:34:00,59.5 A lot of hope that also leads to an action. 236 00:34:01,184.5 --> 00:34:16,589.5 Um, so if, if it's like we are on time and it's not our responsibility, that is something that I could say, like it's the responsibility of the 1% richest of the world, so let them fix the this mess. 237 00:34:17,639.5 --> 00:34:26,819.5 Um, but it's not enough if we just keep quiet waiting for others to fix the mess that we didn't cost. 238 00:34:27,509.5 --> 00:34:52,499.5 Um, so what do I do? I think it's unfortunately, um, um, I don't know if it's one of the items in concrete, uh, but, or maybe it's the one that there is hope, but there is hope if we do something about it. 239 00:34:52,499.5 --> 00:34:52,559.5 So. 240 00:34:54,14.5 --> 00:34:55,934.5 Everyone should have these climate lenses. 241 00:34:55,934.5 --> 00:35:06,914.5 And not only that 1% that we were mentioning before, even though they are the ones that should fix it, it's like the, the bottom up approach. 242 00:35:07,364.5 --> 00:35:24,584.5 Uh, we should be also trying to switch tendencies considering that we're limited and that, I don't know what we were talking of the year about vegetarianism and how much our small actions actually shaped the reality or not. 243 00:35:25,64.5 --> 00:35:28,4.5 And I think that's the, the conclusion. 244 00:35:28,4.5 --> 00:35:40,634.5 It's like it's not because we are having meat for lunch and, uh, domingos, asal in a Sunday, a kind of way that will change the world. 245 00:35:40,634.5 --> 00:35:46,994.5 But actually if we can with our choices slowly but steadily, keep changing the tendencies.
(35:48):
I love what you're mentioning I'm struck by the thought that different messages also work for different people.
.5I think some people Sure.
word collapse and like run into that building to try to save it, whereas others will flee from the scene.
.5will stay and watch in a sort Mm-hmm.
voyeuristic way.
(36:08):
So it's like the way we react upon different words is also a a problem.
It almost feels like we need to have fine tuned messaging to each listener. 253 00:36:17,549.5 --> 00:36:17,839.5 Sure. 254 00:36:18,79.5 --> 00:36:20,564.5 I actually, uh, you made me remember that.
I. 256 00:36:21,119.5 --> 00:36:36,389.5 I used to compare, uh, this spectrum of messages and of sectors in the environmental, uh, environment, um, with the Jewish community, uh, that there is also like a different type of Jewish for everyone. 257 00:36:36,629.5 --> 00:36:49,109.5 And there's, there are the ones who keep all the values and everything at an extreme, and they're the ones that maybe are a little more flexible and they are also, and they all keep like the Jewish play mal. 258 00:36:50,39.5 --> 00:36:53,219.5 And I think there's like the same thing with the. 259 00:36:55,34.5 --> 00:37:19,484.5 The environmental advocacy world, there are the ones that are focusing on our small actions and the ones that are focusing on, uh, policymaking at the international scale, and the ones that are waking everyone up with the dramatic words and the ones that are, uh, willing to discuss with enterprises and even with oil companies, and try to see from the inside what are they willing to change.
(37:20):
One big debate in in climate action has been whether or not we should blame individual people for climate catastrophe.
The opposite of that being to blame corporations and the 1% in the richest countries.
Um.
There was a tendency for a long time to blame the vic, to blame the victim, which is true.
(37:40):
But to blame the, the average person and to say, you know, you need to recycle.
You need to eat vegetarian.
You need, and, and it was a bit of a fallacy and, and almost like a cruel act on the, on be on behalf of these corporations who just kind of stuck around doing what they always did while the blame was shifted to the people that said, I think we're trying to, we moved completely to, to the opposite end of that, I think over the last few years and said, it's only the corporation, it's only the government.
(38:05):
It's only richest countries there.
I still, I still focus a lot more, at least, you know, we're saying that we're all in different levels of action.
If, if mine would be, have a name, I think I'd be focused more so on.
Like, people action.
Um, what, those of us, not in government, not incorporations, those of us just kind of like living our lives, doing our lives in a, in a, on a, in a daily way.
(38:29):
The ways in which we are complicit or.
Participative.
To put it more kindly climate catastrophe, one thing I am always interested in is consumption.
I think that until consumption declines dramatically, there will be no solution.
(38:52):
There will be no betterment of this emergency.
.5there behaviors bother you on a people, on a people level? Yeah, but I think it's a systemic crisis and it's kind of easy to blame the system and to wash my hands. 278 00:39:12,584.5 --> 00:39:21,974.5 But there is something about this because I agree with you and there is, we have this consumerism behavior that, that is really worrying. 279 00:39:22,304.5 --> 00:39:41,684.5 But at the same time, what can I do if I, the only clothing that I can afford are, uh, items that actually will, uh, become, I don't know, like they will actually become waste in two years. 280 00:39:41,744.5 --> 00:39:51,44.5 And it's like something that is really hard to get out of because, uh, if you want to buy good quality products, they're really expensive. 281 00:39:51,44.5 --> 00:39:57,914.5 And sometimes they, uh, feel, uh, run, I don't know how to say like, they. 282 00:39:58,499.5 --> 00:40:01,739.5 Um, It ah, exactly. 283 00:40:02,189.5 --> 00:40:11,639.5 Even if you think you're buying like a, an ethic, uh, brand, they can still, I don't know, last only three years sometimes. 284 00:40:11,849.5 --> 00:40:26,69.5 So it's very hard to fight that systemic, um, like behavior like they, this the system that forces us to keep buying and keep buying. 285 00:40:26,339.5 --> 00:40:33,869.5 Of course, we can't fight a lot of that, but it's really, really hard when we are the only one citing it. 286 00:40:33,869.5 --> 00:40:48,899.5 Uh, so I think there is something, um, about that, like we cannot do it only by ourselves and also because we live in a, in a system that. 287 00:40:50,24.5 --> 00:41:15,584.5 Makes us really hard, not only because of the, the consumerism, like because of the trends, uh, but also because, um, we work so many hours outside home and I, there's many people who buy, uh, delivery for lunch every day, and that means a lot of packages that are disposable, thrown out every day. 288 00:41:16,59.5 --> 00:41:26,864.5 Uh, and it's not us to blame that we didn't do meal prep on Sunday, uh, but there's something that is updated about the system. 289 00:41:27,14.5 --> 00:41:34,79.5 We could be working less hours and cooking more for ourselves with intelligent, um, artificial intelligence, for example. 290 00:41:35,264.5 --> 00:41:47,384.5 Um, like why are we working the same, the same time as before if we have a super machine that, uh, could be helping us? So, um. 291 00:41:48,809.5 --> 00:42:05,724.5 I try to not feel guilty about, uh, I don't know, the waste that I make all the time and to there is this term that I really like that I think I mentioned you once that is like imperfect, eh, advocacy in Spanish activity when Perfecto. 292 00:42:06,544.5 --> 00:42:31,919.5 Um, when I found that concept, it was a relief for me because I used to feel guilty at each thing that when I started like understanding the impact of, of reaction, it was very hard for me, eh, at the beginning I tried to do one July without plastic in 2017 or something like that, and I felt so guilty, uh, when I had to throw. 293 00:42:31,949.5 --> 00:42:42,689.5 That made me like, it was, it made me click and, and open my eyes and understand how much waste I was provoking and that you can feel really, um. 294 00:42:44,639.5 --> 00:42:45,539.5 Really guilty. 295 00:42:45,749.5 --> 00:42:56,339.5 If you, if you feel like that one thing that you are throwing away each day, uh, is the cause of the systemic crisis that it is. 296 00:42:56,339.5 --> 00:43:20,159.5 But at the same time, you have a huge corporation throwing loads and loads and providing, I don't know, for example, um, airlines providing each one of the passengers every day a disposable, uh, ly they could, with one decision, they could be preventing so many, uh, forks to be thrown away each day. 297 00:43:20,789.5 --> 00:43:25,199.5 So it's like, that's why I say it's like a complimentary approach. 298 00:43:25,709.5 --> 00:43:33,539.5 Bottom up is important, but because we set trends and not because we'll make a huge difference, we'll feel better with ourselves. 299 00:43:34,504.5 --> 00:43:39,89.5 But if we, if, if we keep throwing away. 300 00:43:40,499.5 --> 00:43:48,359.5 Every day for the rest of our lives, we wouldn't be making many difference in the numbers of emissions. 301 00:43:48,929.5 --> 00:44:16,979.5 Um, I was talking about that with an envi, um, environmental manager the other day because, uh, my brother is a huge fan of Formula One and I was, uh, talking about the, the environmental impact because they fly, uh, the cars around the world without any criteria, like from one country in one continent, they went to another in the completely opposite to go again to the same other continent. 302 00:44:17,369.5 --> 00:44:25,829.5 And I was, uh, mentioning him like, uh, they slide the cars, the teams in the, the drivers in first. 303 00:44:25,889.5 --> 00:44:34,529.5 Uh, he could tell me like if you, um, erased Formula One, uh, so to, to stop their emissions. 304 00:44:35,639.5 --> 00:44:40,319.5 That is really tiny compared to, I don't know, the images in China. 305 00:44:41,369.5 --> 00:44:50,669.5 Um, and of course if we make everything relat new, then nothing is important, and every change is important, but we, I think we, we need to find balance. 306 00:44:51,839.5 --> 00:45:08,519.5 Uh, and that's the activity, perfecto, uh, doing what's possible, and also trying to think in a systemic way, uh, to try to, to motivate others and not only keeping with our own small contribution.
(45:09):
That's real.
I wanna respond to one part of you were saying, the piece about how so many of our climate change contributing actions like ordering delivery or like buying clothes that only lasts for two years.
(45:30):
appreciate.
And I think it's very generous from a social justice lens to shift blame away from person who takes those decisions because they just truly did not have time to, to prepare their food because they also had to take care of their children or because they also had to work for jobs, for example, or the fast fashion that that's just all that they could afford.
(45:52):
I appreciate that and I think it's harder to do so with those actions, but we gotta blame ourselves for something is my thought, is what I find myself thinking.
While, while I hear that, maybe not those, but I can't square, for example, the fact that water bottles still exist, that plastic water bottles still exist.
(46:12):
I have been a user of reusable water, plastic water bottles for at least, at least 10 years, and I find my life is so much better because of it.
a, on a selfish level, pretend, let's pretend it didn't even make climate change better.
It does, but I just like the fact that I've got my own water bottle.
I never have to spend a dime on water anywhere.
(46:33):
Anywhere I go, I'm bringing water with me.
It's almost like a, like an another appendage to me right now, my water bottle.
I think Americans get, like, us Americans get mocked for that sometimes.
Um, and rightly so.
But it's true.
It's true.
So I can't not blame people for that, or even taking plastic bags to the grocery store.
Um, I've, I lived in enough places where that was where they were, they were, they cost money.
(46:57):
Uh, I lived in enough places where they cost money.
That that also motivated me to just have my own cloth bags, which I also just think look really nice and aesthetic, and I use them to go do my groceries.
So I, I feel like we've gotta blame ourselves for something.
Even just now or before this call, I told you, we were talking about, um, shadow out about like the, the tea leaves from our beverages.
(47:19):
And how you did not change yours out from this morning.
Whereas I did change out my tea leaves from this morning.
Could I have, could I have just used the same ones from this morning? Absolutely.
No doubt about it.
I could have used the same ones from this morning.
Should I feel bad about that? I think I should feel bad about that.
don't want to, but I think I sh I think someone should tell me then that's not right.
(47:42):
Someone has to, someone has to tell me that. 337 00:47:45,74.5 --> 00:47:55,274.5 Um, when people throw away, um, reuse all those things in front of me, they, uh, ask me like they say they are sorry for me. 338 00:47:55,274.5 --> 00:47:55,694.5 Like, sorry. 339 00:47:56,264.5 --> 00:47:57,74.5 So throw them out. 340 00:47:57,314.5 --> 00:48:01,514.5 And it's like, don't, don't ask for my permission or my blessing. 341 00:48:01,994.5 --> 00:48:15,824.5 And I, I, um, I think there is, so, like we are ones of, of the small portion of the population who actually feels guilty for not reusing the Sheva. 342 00:48:15,824.5 --> 00:48:17,924.5 Uh, and it's like. 343 00:48:18,614.5 --> 00:48:25,904.5 I started feeling in one moment, like the, uh, and there's no translation. 344 00:48:25,904.5 --> 00:48:43,454.5 I like the silly one who actually feels guilty for every single, uh, silly thing that she throws away when the rest of of people who surround me only only feel guilty when they see me throwing them, throwing out, um, like, like when they throw out their things. 345 00:48:43,904.5 --> 00:48:47,24.5 So, um, I think there's something about that. 346 00:48:47,84.5 --> 00:48:56,474.5 I think there are people who actually could make more effort, um, in, in reducing their impact. 347 00:48:57,104.5 --> 00:49:07,424.5 But at the same time, we that have already like a conscience and a, and a perspective should be not like, uh, blaming our ourselves all the time. 348 00:49:07,424.5 --> 00:49:09,674.5 And also starting, starting to. 349 00:49:10,514.5 --> 00:49:17,954.5 Think strategies that are more systemic to address these things, like the bottle that you mentioned. 350 00:49:17,954.5 --> 00:49:25,94.5 Uh, why some people still not using, um, I don't know, the reusable bottle all the time. 351 00:49:25,874.5 --> 00:49:26,564.5 Uh, I do it. 352 00:49:26,564.5 --> 00:49:33,74.5 I, it's also something that I like, almost like a pet that I carry with me all the time, but I have to buy. 353 00:49:33,394.5 --> 00:49:36,844.5 A valve that actually fit my bottles in. 354 00:49:37,324.5 --> 00:49:45,424.5 So of course I understand that my friends that are more fashion items, that, that more fashion, fashion speak, I know than myself. 355 00:49:46,444.5 --> 00:49:48,874.5 Um, they choose the tiny vs. 356 00:49:48,874.5 --> 00:50:11,554.5 And there's also, but there are more systemic strategies that we could still develop to actually reduce the, the use of water bottles, like, uh, installing, uh, places to, to drink water in the city, or, uh, enabling or forcing restaurants to give you top water for free. 357 00:50:11,554.5 --> 00:50:13,759.5 That is something that here in does not happen. 358 00:50:14,829.5 --> 00:50:16,359.5 Um, at all. 359 00:50:17,79.5 --> 00:50:19,449.5 So I think it's like a combination. 360 00:50:19,569.5 --> 00:50:28,929.5 Uh, and definitely, uh, I know a lot of people that could make more effort and keep, uh, more effort and separate their waste, for example. 361 00:50:29,979.5 --> 00:50:40,959.5 Um, and we should be trying to wake up more people in that context and we shouldn't give up, uh, because that, it's true that every action counts. 362 00:50:41,439.5 --> 00:51:10,584.5 But at the same time, I think, um, the most important is to, to, uh, aim higher and to try to, to develop, I don't know, startups and businesses and, and projects from governments that enable us to address these small decisions that we make every day that make us, um, have a higher impact, that the impact that we want to have.
(51:12):
I'm especially on board with the idea of forcing restaurants to refill water bottles.
I have had to perfect my own pitch for Yeah, to please, please fill up my water bottle.
I think I have a pretty good success ratio at this point.
And it, it's all about the empathy.
It's all about getting the, the right tone in your question.
(51:34):
Other and, and like them feel like it's obvious that they have to fill it up. 369 00:51:40,339.5 --> 00:51:41,144.5 the new one. 370 00:51:41,144.5 --> 00:51:43,34.5 I want that strategy now. 371 00:51:43,34.5 --> 00:51:52,454.5 And for example, when I started composting, um, I learned that in New York in that time, I think that's not the case anymore. 372 00:51:52,454.5 --> 00:51:57,854.5 But, uh, there were, uh, many, um, like community, uh. 373 00:51:58,679.5 --> 00:52:03,299.5 Places where people actually took their compost, and that was that. 374 00:52:03,599.5 --> 00:52:34,889.5 And here I had to buy my own at home compost maker and to, I don't know, um, to make myself dirty or to, and something that I heard an entrepreneur sell say about, um, how to reduce, um, each one of the citizen's impact was like, you have to try to make the consumer or the citizen or whatever, the less uncomfortable as possible. 375 00:52:36,599.5 --> 00:52:39,239.5 Uh, like it shouldn't bother them as much. 376 00:52:39,419.5 --> 00:52:49,949.5 So for example, he had developed, um, a machine, uh, that you dispose your organic waste and it turned it into, um, um. 377 00:52:51,779.5 --> 00:53:02,400.5 Like food for, for cattle and animals, and they actually took care of, um, picking up that, uh, product. 378 00:53:02,699.5 --> 00:53:18,809.5 So you didn't have to do almost anything different and your life could still be the same and you were, uh, reducing in a half your environmental footprint because waste, uh, a half of our waste is, is organic. 379 00:53:19,889.5 --> 00:53:31,829.5 Um, so I think it's a way to, to see things in order to actually be able to develop strategies to, to drive change.
(53:32):
Yeah, I, I'm, I'm thinking back to the six key truths while we're talking.
First, I was thinking about your friends who, uh, who say, sorry.
So when they throw something out.
I think that the two key truths that are, um, missing there, ironically, the one that the truth about it's bad missing there.
(53:53):
'cause it's like there, before we even talk about that, it's us.
It's like this is a problem, right? It's like almost like it's a you thing, like change is something sword cares about.
.5Um, and it's a, it's sort of personal Yeah.
Um, and I am sorry so that I'm not helping you with that.
I think that there's the, it's us is clear maybe that it's bad's not, and then with the solution around, um, cattle feed that they come pick up your organic waste from your house.
(54:22):
There.
I feel like it's, again, it sort of goes past all of these.
.5If bypasses all of Mm-hmm.
.5it doesn't Yeah.
if you care about climate change.
At all Maybe.
Maybe it does.
It definitely motivates you a little bit to participate in this program, but you don't have to think it's real or it's us, or it's bad, or there's hope that it almost doesn't matter.
You just do something beyond the fact of climate change. 398 00:54:46,934.5 --> 00:55:01,334.5 I think there is something, um, I was thinking while listening to you that sometimes those who actually tell me, sorry, I'm still generating impact when I know I could avoid this. 399 00:55:02,84.5 --> 00:55:03,104.5 Um. 400 00:55:04,709.5 --> 00:55:20,579.5 They don't really feel that this, it's val uh, reality or truth will actually affect them because, uh, we are very privileged and I put myself into that, uh, package also. 401 00:55:21,359.5 --> 00:55:32,519.5 So whenever, uh, I don't know a flow comes, I'm supposed to have a roof that I can, uh, be under and survive that flow. 402 00:55:32,729.5 --> 00:55:45,299.5 Or when there is a heat wave, I have a, a swimming pool, not mine, that I have friends who have, and I could go there or turn on the air conditioning and I could survive with not much travel. 403 00:55:45,299.5 --> 00:55:49,349.5 And I think one challenge that we still have is to actually, um. 404 00:55:52,19.5 --> 00:56:03,989.5 Wake up people and make them understand that, I don't know, energy will be, uh, more and more expensive because we all will be turning on our conditionings. 405 00:56:03,989.5 --> 00:56:13,349.5 And here in Montes Aires, we have a lot of energy shortcuts, um, that the floods, uh, will make disasters and the economy will be affected. 406 00:56:13,349.5 --> 00:56:25,739.5 And like we have to make these connections in order to this, uh, will actually, um, in Spanish is like, I don't know the translation, but I like that word.
(56:25):
.5that you'll Yeah, touched you'll feel it personal. 408 00:56:29,309.5 --> 00:56:29,639.5 Yeah. 409 00:56:29,714.5 --> 00:56:33,359.5 Or that it'll impact you also and not just the world. 410 00:56:33,389.5 --> 00:56:38,579.5 Like something that is not, that has not to do with you.
On that theme of climate messaging, one of the initiatives that's been in place recently by certain climate organizations is to encourage the media to draw that connection with climate change.
(56:50):
Whenever there is a natural disaster, which I've noticed, an increasing, I've noticed as an increasing trend.
You know, whenever there is a flood or where there is a hurricane or so on, on occasion, you see that connection explicitly stated.
Um, which then leads to the media organizations being criticized certainly, but feels like a piece of that puzzle.
(57:11):
Uh, before we, we, we close out for today, there, there's just one or two more things I wanted to ask you about.
is the nuance of working in the global south, the way, the way that which is the most of the way you have been working with cities, networks, uh, often centered in this area, and you're also soon to go up to the global north, uh, taking maybe some of these lessons or some of these nuances with you.
(57:39):
Uh, I don't know if you're familiar with this, but I was recently, um, educated by, um, an anthropologist about how global south is a term to be retired and the be the better one to use is global majority. 418 00:57:54,14.5 --> 00:57:54,794.5 I like that.
I like that too.
I like that too.
Well, I'm wondering what, what have been some of the specific.
(58:01):
Opportunities and challenges of working in the global south for you? I. 423 00:58:06,169.5 --> 00:58:06,459.5 Okay. 424 00:58:07,124.5 --> 00:58:12,224.5 Um, there's a lot, uh, we were talking, uh, before we started about. 425 00:58:13,244.5 --> 00:58:22,904.5 How the climate agenda is something that has to do with geopolitics and that behind climate negotiations, each country is fighting for their own interest. 426 00:58:23,474.5 --> 00:58:53,929.5 And it's really interesting because you see like, um, fights between including or we era, some different words that enable, I don't know, a country to actually, uh, produce more, um, of something that is not organic certified, for example, or I don't know, um, emit certain kind of emission, like it has to do with a lot of things, things related to commerce and production and, and. 427 00:58:55,784.5 --> 00:59:20,204.5 I don't know how much do they want to change the status quo? Uh, and something that is still less popular in the climate agenda is the adaptation agenda, which is the one that the global majority or the South should be focusing on because, um, we do not have, uh, systems that are prepared for the effects of the climate crisis. 428 00:59:20,504.5 --> 00:59:34,994.5 And so the effects of them, of, of the floods, of the intensive heat or whatever that increases with the region we are in, um, will be very hard to recover, uh, from. 429 00:59:36,74.5 --> 00:59:48,974.5 Um, and that is, uh, something that is urgent and, and that is really now like the more popular agenda is the mediation and is, uh, like trying to reducing the carbon footprint. 430 00:59:49,34.5 --> 00:59:52,184.5 It's also something that it's really like. 431 00:59:53,744.5 --> 01:00:01,304.5 It looked nice because you plant some trees and you put a nice number on some advertising place. 432 01:00:01,994.5 --> 01:00:04,604.5 You are carbon neutral by 2030. 433 01:00:04,694.5 --> 01:00:05,444.5 Amazing. 434 01:00:05,654.5 --> 01:00:17,714.5 And maybe like preventing, um, an impact of the climate crisis to happen is less, um, um, yeah, yeah. 435 01:00:19,79.5 --> 01:00:27,554.5 But, but it's really important and it's, it has to do with the specifics, uh, ways of living in the, in the. 436 01:00:28,169.5 --> 01:00:32,129.5 I will keep saying global out for a little more, but because it comes easier. 437 01:00:32,699.5 --> 01:00:43,829.5 Uh, but for example, the informal settlements, uh, we've discussed this a lot, um, are very little prepared for the heat. 438 01:00:43,874.5 --> 01:00:45,59.5 For the rain. 439 01:00:45,59.5 --> 01:00:52,709.5 Uh, they do not have, um, materials that actually absorb, uh, water from the rain. 440 01:00:52,709.5 --> 01:00:58,739.5 They do not have a stable electricity to fight the heat or the, or the. 441 01:01:00,359.5 --> 01:01:03,389.5 The lower temperatures. 442 01:01:03,864.5 --> 01:01:14,909.5 Uh, so it's, um, and that impacts the ability of the low income workers that are essentially in any city to actually work each day. 443 01:01:15,184.5 --> 01:01:18,44.5 And so that has impacts with the health system. 444 01:01:18,329.5 --> 01:01:26,459.5 And that's when you start connecting everything and, and realizing that it, it, the, the, the truth that it's valid. 445 01:01:26,459.5 --> 01:01:30,209.5 It's not only valid for others, but for everyone I.
(01:01:32):
That feels like a lesson to be had in this hemisphere. 447 01:01:35,249.5 --> 01:01:35,609.5 Yeah. 448 01:01:35,699.5 --> 01:02:06,689.5 Uh, and at the same time you asked me about like opportunities and I think, and that's a nice way of seeing it, and another need being pessimistic about it, is well before saying, using the term global south, we used to say, uh, developing countries and we are still developing and we have still opportunities of designing our cities and our ecosystems in a way that is more friendly to the crisis that we're addressing. 449 01:02:07,769.5 --> 01:02:23,519.5 Um, it's a challenge at the same time because that sometimes may mean, I don't know, choosing the different material that is a little bit more expensive, but in the long term it'll be cheaper because you will not have to reveal that place, uh, and so on.
(01:02:24):
.5Like the system is still so, um, it's still taking shape, Mm-hmm.
is true of everywhere, but especially maybe true of places that are still reaching their pinnacle of growth. 452 01:02:35,264.5 --> 01:02:35,684.5 Mm-hmm.
What has been one of the ways that you've built networks and communities around climate work? It's one of the things that's most fascinating to me about the way that you operate in this space.
(01:02:47):
That you seem to know many people, uh, you've connected me, the people, uh, I've heard people talk about you, you know, I feel like you're very, you have like a fabric of community around this.
.5How have you built that? Um, it's a nice question and thank you for asking it. 456 01:03:06,824.5 --> 01:03:19,574.5 Um, I believe it's a way of, of, um, actually getting to fulfill, uh, any objective that I set myself to. 457 01:03:20,144.5 --> 01:03:29,924.5 Uh, it's at the same time a little bit revolutionary because there as any environment, there is a lot of egos around and people that. 458 01:03:30,239.5 --> 01:03:33,629.5 I want to be like the most important ones. 459 01:03:35,9.5 --> 01:03:42,659.5 Um, but I found that making synergy was always a way to open more doors. 460 01:03:43,139.5 --> 01:04:00,359.5 So I tried to, um, in the projects that I knew to, to take time, to take care of these bonds that I start creating and, um, to give space to different organizations. 461 01:04:00,359.5 --> 01:04:11,69.5 Um, and of course it's sometimes it's harder because it means, I don't know, sharing, decision making or sharing the spotlight or anything. 462 01:04:11,219.5 --> 01:04:17,729.5 But at the same time, I think it's, it's maybe a slower way of growing, but at the same time, steadier, because you have this. 463 01:04:18,329.5 --> 01:04:20,969.5 Support of different places. 464 01:04:21,359.5 --> 01:04:35,969.5 And at the same time in the international sphere, um, I found it convenient to just be myself because I was one of the few Argentinians or even people from South America that was in those places. 465 01:04:36,419.5 --> 01:04:41,129.5 And of course that's a huge responsibility, but at the same time, it's not as hard to be unique. 466 01:04:41,219.5 --> 01:04:46,844.5 I just have to make, uh, everyone try mate and they will remember me. 467 01:04:47,304.5 --> 01:05:00,689.5 Uh, but there is something about connecting genuinely with people and not only going there to shake hands and give man my card that I think has, is, is key for solid relationships.
(01:05:01):
.5Yeah, the bonding and presenting ourselves that Mm-hmm.
about earlier.
.5And just Yeah.
.5to close, a question that you wish people asked more often climate conversations? Hmm. 472 01:05:15,254.5 --> 01:05:15,474.5 Um. 473 01:05:18,944.5 --> 01:05:38,564.5 I think, um, sometimes we are so focused on, I don't know, strategies or making decisions or this evil thing that we were just mentioning that we forget the human that we have in front of. 474 01:05:39,374.5 --> 01:05:58,724.5 Um, so I really like to ask, and I would love to, to listen more to the question on like, how do you see the effects of climate change in your city and what could be done to prevent that or what are you already doing? Because it's a way of getting to know a place and the people. 475 01:05:58,724.5 --> 01:06:07,514.5 Um, and of course behind that there is, there are a lot of, of stories of people who lose their houses or, I don't know, it's. 476 01:06:08,279.5 --> 01:06:17,729.5 But at the same time of, of people, uh, are like hopeful stories because in, in the ecosystem there's a lot of, of people doing amazing things. 477 01:06:18,119.5 --> 01:06:29,579.5 So they, they tell you about the education project they're doing, um, that changed the life of people and the legislation that they just launched. 478 01:06:29,579.5 --> 01:06:34,709.5 Like, there's so many positive stories to hear after that question as well.
(01:06:36):
This has been lovely.
Thank you so much. 481 01:06:39,929.5 --> 01:06:41,369.5 Thanks for the invitation. 482 01:06:46,650.8928627 --> 01:06:47,700.8928627 Thanks for being here. 483 01:06:48,270.8928627 --> 01:06:55,800.8928627 If this conversation resonated with you, consider reviewing therapy for the world or sharing the link with someone who might appreciate it. 484 01:06:56,460.8928627 --> 01:06:59,910.8928627 Until next time, speak with care and listen deeply.
.9999999994if you, um, erased Formula One, uh, so to, to stop their emissions. 2 00:00:08,789.9999999995 --> 00:00:13,469.999999999 That is really tiny compared to, I don't know, the images in China.
(00:14):
Um, and of course if we make everything relat new, then nothing is important, and every change is important, but we, I think we, we need to find balance. 4 00:00:24,989.999999999 --> 00:00:41,670 Uh, and that's the activity, perfecto, uh, doing what's possible, and also trying to think in a systemic way, uh, to try to, to motivate others and not only keeping with our own small contribution. 5 00:00:50,959.5 --> 00:00:58,459.5 Welcome to Therapy for the World, an interview series with people working across the spectrum of self-care and world care. 6 00:00:59,179.5 --> 00:01:11,569.5 I'm Dan Sikorski, a writing teacher and therapist, and the other voice you hear is so Reman, a geographer, climate activist, an internationally recognized environmental educator. 7 00:01:12,289.5 --> 00:01:16,879.5 We recorded this on July 16th at half past two in the afternoon. 8 00:01:17,359.5 --> 00:01:18,354.5 Here's our conversation. 9 00:01:31,919.5 --> 00:01:38,609.5 I don't know how, um, how do you say, like the hero path, how do you say it in English? Yeah, exactly. 10 00:01:38,609.5 --> 00:01:50,399.5 I think there is something about that related to climate advocacy, maybe because, uh, you have, you find a lot of challenges along the way and, and you have to find. 11 00:01:51,719.5 --> 00:01:59,129.5 I don't know, make alliances and find ways to, to sort out the challenges in order to keep going. 12 00:01:59,579.5 --> 00:02:22,379.5 So I think maybe something about that, that it's just now that I'm making the connection and also I, I think empathy, that was something that we were briefly like mentioning before, like the ability to understand because you read stories of people from all around the world, a little bit more about how other people work through the world.
(02:23):
.5I love the piece about hero's journey First, I, I also love the piece about empathy, but thinking about the climate struggle as like the most epic hero's journey that I'm not quite sure how it's gonna end, will it end with Total failure? Will it be an epic tale? I don't know. 14 00:02:47,534.5 --> 00:02:54,314.5 I am, I, you are lucky that just yesterday I had, I had a coffee with someone who is more optimistic than me. 15 00:02:54,764.5 --> 00:03:00,104.5 So I, uh, come today with more optimism that I have days ago. 16 00:03:00,554.5 --> 00:03:19,289.5 But I don't know, it's a challenging time, but I choose to believe my friend who was very sure that we will be okay and that, um, we have to adapt like there's no other way and, and that we will So we're, we're gonna touch on, mm-hmm.
(03:20):
.5now, but I do, I do need to ask you what, what is your general state of being then, if not optimism and like how, how were you feeling before this conversation and what was said during it over coffee that brought you to the other side? Um, it is, I, I know what we have to do because the solutions are out there and, and we know the, the, the challenge that we have ahead, and we know that we need every sector on board. 18 00:03:52,574.5 --> 00:04:00,884.5 And, well, particularly now, it's a really challenging time to see every sector getting on board. 19 00:04:01,124.5 --> 00:04:21,284.5 And we are actually, eh, like watching, um, the, I don't know, like the tendencies to turning around under a lot of enterprises that are, um, um, like minimizing their environmental action and, and their. 20 00:04:21,974.5 --> 00:04:44,624.5 Eh, carbon on neutral objectives and so on, eh, so I was feeling quite disappointed on the one hand, um, like septic of the possibility of actually getting to, to avoid disaster. 21 00:04:44,919.5 --> 00:04:52,574.5 At the same time, I know that it's not that one day we're going to wake up and there will be an apocalypse or something like that. 22 00:04:52,574.5 --> 00:04:58,514.5 It will be gradually and we are already going to the consequences of the climate crisis. 23 00:04:58,814.5 --> 00:05:18,404.5 But it's true what my friend says, that because we're living these consequences, uh, it is more easy to, to show, uh, decision makers that if they don't, um, make changes to the way we are going through all these reality now. 24 00:05:19,49.5 --> 00:05:25,139.5 They are the ones who are going to lose money and I don't know, political favors. 25 00:05:25,264.5 --> 00:05:29,699.5 And, um, it's not the next generation anymore. 26 00:05:30,299.5 --> 00:05:33,329.5 So that's something to be us. 27 00:05:33,329.5 --> 00:05:40,349.5 Hope we must change now and everyone will be, um, exposed to the consequences.
(05:42):
.5I don't wanna Um.
hope from you.
So I'm, I'm gonna limit my response, but I, no, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm kidding.
And I'm not, I, because I, I tend to exist on a little bit of a, of a more pessimistic side of things too.
At the same time, we wouldn't be having this conversation if we didn't think it matters, um, and that it mattered.
(06:02):
So we can leave that there and come back to it.
I want to start at the beginning.
.5Where did your interest in working in this field come from? I really don't know. 36 00:06:16,394.5 --> 00:06:18,629.5 Uh, I ask myself that a lot. 37 00:06:20,24.5 --> 00:06:24,194.5 Uh, when did it start? And it's funny because, um. 38 00:06:26,234.5 --> 00:06:57,479.5 Um, when I watch, like, look back and I'm find, I don't know, some paperwork that I did in primary school or secondary school, I find like, like, uh, how do you say, um, like if there res that something was going okay, like to that di direction, like I found, uh, I don't, um, something that I made like in third grade about recycling and so on, and I was really passionate about that. 39 00:06:58,499.5 --> 00:07:12,419.5 Um, but because I was really curious about everything, um, also in secondary school I was, um, the only one interested in the geography, uh, course. 40 00:07:13,439.5 --> 00:07:17,579.5 Um, really interested when all of my friends were not. 41 00:07:18,659.5 --> 00:07:29,549.5 Uh, but I didn't pay much attention to that, and I really, um, found it, uh, challenging to, to choose, uh, what to study in university. 42 00:07:30,569.5 --> 00:07:40,529.5 Uh, but in that process I understood that there was something about the intersection between the social issues and the environment. 43 00:07:41,159.5 --> 00:07:46,859.5 Um, and, and starting to understand that was the first step. 44 00:07:47,249.5 --> 00:07:56,849.5 And that's how I started geography looking for those answers and to deep, like, dive deep into that universe of environmental issues. 45 00:07:56,849.5 --> 00:08:06,959.5 Um, and then I was lucky enough to start working in the climate change area of the government, of the city of Buenos Aires. 46 00:08:07,994.5 --> 00:08:16,454.5 And from the huge universe of environmental issues, uh, I found climate change and the adaptation agenda. 47 00:08:16,844.5 --> 00:08:24,284.5 And at the same time, I was joining a youth led, um, advocacy group of climate action. 48 00:08:25,334.5 --> 00:08:29,204.5 Um, that was also like I was all the time learning by doing. 49 00:08:29,204.5 --> 00:08:33,14.5 And in that process, understanding what I was more passionate about. 50 00:08:33,524.5 --> 00:08:48,284.5 In that process, I understood that what drives me the most is the adaptation and resilience agenda, because in the end it gathers together everything that I was looking for when I chose what to study. 51 00:08:48,284.5 --> 00:08:58,784.5 That is the social aspect and the environmental aspect at the same time, because resilience is strengthening, uh, those who are most exposed to the effects of the climate crisis. 52 00:08:59,474.5 --> 00:09:01,544.5 So it does make sense.
(09:01):
it does make sense and, and it also bypasses the question we were asking earlier about whether it's an optimistic or pessimistic outlook, because the most realistic.
Thing to notice is that people are going to be suffering.
People are suffering now.
So in a way, it almost doesn't entertain that question about whether things are getting better or worse. 57 00:09:24,599.5 --> 00:09:24,929.5 Yeah. 58 00:09:25,404.5 --> 00:09:25,624.5 Yes. 59 00:09:25,654.5 --> 00:09:28,744.5 It's just like, let's take action and, and keep going.
(09:29):
Totally.
.5In geography, were you alone in being interested in working climate change or was it a field that also brought in folks who were interested in that, in that, Um, in that I, when I started studying, I felt like I was the more, the more interested, the most interested in between my peers in the climate agenda. 62 00:09:51,734.5 --> 00:09:59,834.5 Um, they were all interested, but I was like passionate about it and wanting to, I knew that was my field. 63 00:10:00,434.5 --> 00:10:12,614.5 Um, and there were not as many courses with the climate perspective, but then, uh, more like the first, the topic became more and more important in the agenda. 64 00:10:12,974.5 --> 00:10:25,214.5 And because of that, I, I also believe, uh, more people started joining the, the, the degree, uh, because of that perspective. 65 00:10:25,574.5 --> 00:10:32,924.5 So now there are more environmentalists in the studying geography than when I started.
(10:34):
.5Did you consider as your interest in environmentalism bloomed? Did you consider shifting over to another degree or another field? No, but well, here in, in Buenos Aires at least, um. 67 00:10:49,844.5 --> 00:10:59,84.5 When I chose, uh, to sell geography, there were not, uh, so many options, uh, like besides geography. 68 00:10:59,84.5 --> 00:11:10,604.5 There was, um, like environmental science, uh, but there, it, it was not what I was looking for because it was science and I, I wanted like the intersection with society. 69 00:11:10,934.5 --> 00:11:23,714.5 And also because it was in the faculty of, um, I don't know how you translate it, but I like, uh, I don't know, Mia, like field studies or something like that. 70 00:11:24,44.5 --> 00:11:34,34.5 So it was really focused on the, uh, everything like the countryside and how do you grow, uh, fields and crops and so on. 71 00:11:35,714.5 --> 00:11:39,404.5 Um, and I, I knew that, that that was not what I was looking for. 72 00:11:39,404.5 --> 00:11:48,524.5 And then you have some, um, careers in private universities that I, I didn't wanted to go, I wanted to go to the University of Buenos Aires. 73 00:11:49,4.5 --> 00:11:55,304.5 Now there are more opportunities and maybe I had more options if I started my career today. 74 00:11:55,724.5 --> 00:12:04,364.5 What I also knew from the first moment was that I would have to create my own path because it was very specific. 75 00:12:04,604.5 --> 00:12:11,864.5 Um, and that I knew where I wanted to to go, but I didn't know how I would get there. 76 00:12:12,404.5 --> 00:12:23,654.5 And I knew that yeah, I would have to keep, um, finding courses besides university and opportunities to keep learning what I was looking for.
(12:25):
I know it's an, uh, an unpopular, which is a bad word.
Let's go with not a very common pursuit here.
Uh, geography.
I know it's a small department.
I think it is.
I mean, honestly, I haven't met anyone in the states who studied geography as their major.
You get people who studied, um, you know, GIS and specific like applications of geography, especially in courses.
(12:49):
I don't.
No, if I have a full grasp of what it is, geography.
I mean, I, I also kind of stayed with my middle school geography class understanding of we learn the capitals of the different countries and the different ways that the tic tectonic plates, um, assemble to form mountains or earthquakes or, and so on.
But what, what it clearly, it's more than that.
(13:10):
.5What, what is the field of geography at the university level? Um, well, I was lucky enough to have a similar approach with geography in secondary school, so it was not. 89 00:13:24,899.5 --> 00:13:31,889.5 Uh, it was really aligned, but to sum it up, it will be like the relationship between societies and their territories. 90 00:13:32,639.5 --> 00:13:36,509.5 So you would analyze, it's really abstract. 91 00:13:36,569.5 --> 00:13:50,579.5 I don't know, but, but, uh, it's some type in that because, uh, and so you have urban geography and you study cities that related with the societies that inhabit the cities and rural geography. 92 00:13:50,579.5 --> 00:14:01,649.5 And you study how, uh, societies relate with, uh, the, the rural spaces and how do we organize them and what can we do about it. 93 00:14:02,9.5 --> 00:14:03,359.5 Um, I don't know. 94 00:14:03,704.5 --> 00:14:20,489.5 Um, I also studied, um, courses related to ecosystems or also related to maps and how do we represent, uh, territories and, and also, um, information in the like territorial approach. 95 00:14:20,594.5 --> 00:14:21,524.5 It's really interesting. 96 00:14:21,629.5 --> 00:14:23,579.5 It's like, um, sociology. 97 00:14:23,969.5 --> 00:14:27,389.5 But with a really grounded approach. 98 00:14:28,409.5 --> 00:14:33,644.5 Um, so yes, it's, it's, it's quite specific.
(14:35):
You sold me on it with the phrase a society's relationship to its territory.
That does feel super broad and super.
Um.
Like that, it touches so many different fields and ways of understanding daily life from like transportation means to architecture, to even like materials that are used on a daily basis.
(15:05):
And, and I'm, I'm wondering, I imagine that there's also a segment of the, of the, of the field that studies society's broken relationship with its territory or like it, the ignored relationship with the territory.
I feel like so many places are ungrounded right now.
They could be existing anywhere. 106 00:15:23,69.5 --> 00:15:24,809.5 Yeah, that's really interesting. 107 00:15:25,589.5 --> 00:15:27,124.5 And it's, uh, it has a lot to do with geography. 108 00:15:27,584.5 --> 00:15:32,729.5 Uh, I was actually thinking about that with friends the other day. 109 00:15:33,329.5 --> 00:15:58,19.5 Uh, this concept of like in Spanish EZ or like non places that are these places where time and and place are just the same anywhere you are in the world, like, uh, malls or airports, supermarkets, of course if you pay attention to the specific, you will find different, uh, things to buy, but you could be anywhere. 110 00:15:58,529.5 --> 00:16:04,169.5 Um, and it's really interesting because where is the, the culture of the place and so on. 111 00:16:04,169.5 --> 00:16:11,789.5 Casinos so and so, um, yeah, that's something that is really, um, that we study in geography.
(16:12):
There's no marker in that place of where it, even, where it is.
It could be.
I like the way you said that it could be anywhere.
.5You mentioned earlier that you had, um, explicitly chosen to study at the public university at the, when you were, say Buenos Aires, Mm-hmm.
not to go to a private one.
.5What was behind that? Decision Uh, I knew the University of Buenos Aires was one of the most prestigious universities here in Buenos Aires. 118 00:16:39,519.5 --> 00:16:42,554.5 Uh, I really wanted to go through that experience. 119 00:16:42,854.5 --> 00:16:54,614.5 Uh, in particular the options that I was looking for, uh, related to environment and societies, uh, were not available in prestigious and university at the time. 120 00:16:54,824.5 --> 00:16:59,954.5 Um, so the most important one will be that one. 121 00:17:00,584.5 --> 00:17:11,114.5 And I also wanted to, uh, pop out a little, um, my Jewish institution's bubble that I had growing up. 122 00:17:11,114.5 --> 00:17:15,824.5 So that was also something I was really looking forward to.
(17:16):
until what point, uh, did you be, were you very involved with those, with that Jewish bubble? 'cause you popped out of it, but like you still stayed inside of it, uh, to the extent that you wanted to.
.5So at what, uh, uh, you know, what were, what was your involvement with that bubble? What were you doing in Jewish organizations? Um, well, I, I went to primary and secondary Jewish private schools on the one hand, and also, and I think you are referring to that other part, um, every weekend I spent it on a Jewish country club. 125 00:17:50,369.5 --> 00:18:09,209.5 Um, and since I was 17, I spent it in charge of groups of kids and teenagers from different ages, um, with activities and with non-formal education and in charge of planning their camps and so on. 126 00:18:09,569.5 --> 00:18:16,19.5 So it was like all the time being around people with the same values and the same background. 127 00:18:16,44.5 --> 00:18:19,19.5 And, um, I don't know. 128 00:18:19,19.5 --> 00:18:21,989.5 I wanted to meet other views of the world.
(18:24):
.5Something I hear often from people who did have I.
involvement with the Jewish camp groups and Jewish, um, groups of being in charge of them Also, like, teenagers in charge of younger kids.
I did the same thing.
I hear often from folks who've had that experience that the lessons learned there and almost like the mentality that goes into that work stays with you.
(18:53):
In many ways it like pops up in strange new places.
I was watching an old at, um, a being like a leader of these groups at a bonfire in a very, like, particularly Jewish setting the other day.
And just like, you know, gathering the group in songs and um, and like playing games and stuff.
(19:16):
.5wonder where you've seen that, that part of you, that energy come up since then? Yeah, I think it's a huge part of my personality and of my leadership today. 137 00:19:30,509.5 --> 00:19:32,969.5 It has shaped me completely. 138 00:19:33,419.5 --> 00:19:48,389.5 I spent six years in charge of groups of different ages and also, eh, and almost as important as that, working with teams of, uh, with people that were my age. 139 00:19:48,389.5 --> 00:19:56,129.5 Um, and in that, in those cases, I was also like the environmentalist of, of the team. 140 00:19:56,519.5 --> 00:20:04,589.5 And I was keen on every kid to actually pick up their, their waste and throwing them, um, so on. 141 00:20:04,949.5 --> 00:20:10,469.5 But what actually stayed with me was, on the one hand, like. 142 00:20:10,534.5 --> 00:20:22,294.5 The knowledge on planning of activities and projects, um, and I, and also the innovative style. 143 00:20:23,224.5 --> 00:20:34,894.5 Uh, you have to plan with creativity and with innovation, and that led me to create projects that are really different from everything that I knew, uh, in as a professional. 144 00:20:35,914.5 --> 00:20:45,729.5 Um, so I, I think the way I work today as a professional has a lot to do with everything that I learned until that, until when I was America. 145 00:20:46,749.5 --> 00:21:04,234.5 Um, and also, and also playing while you work, like, um, the, the value of, of playing with others, um, I think it's really important and something that we forget growing up.
(21:05):
When you first started entering, almost said like business spaces, but spaces like of Buenos Aires.
I'm not sure it was a bus.
Maybe it is a business space.
I wonder what you found when you got there.
.5Were you, were you feeling like there was room for this type of playful energy, or did it ask something else of you? Um, well, when I started as a professional, uh, I had a simultaneous, uh, start, eh, I started on the one hand on the government of the city of Enos Aires. 151 00:21:42,244.5 --> 00:21:47,984.5 Uh, uh, we were two of us, me and my impostor syndrome together, uh, hand in hand. 152 00:21:48,164.5 --> 00:21:55,139.5 And I was like feeling really, uh, tiny and like looking up to the ones that were, uh, there before me. 153 00:21:55,139.5 --> 00:21:56,279.5 And it was in the pandemic. 154 00:21:56,279.5 --> 00:22:01,559.5 So it was in a, from home, uh, really challenging. 155 00:22:01,604.5 --> 00:22:06,749.5 And, um, I felt like I couldn't, um. 156 00:22:07,849.5 --> 00:22:10,879.5 Be a hundred percent myself at the beginning. 157 00:22:10,909.5 --> 00:22:17,179.5 So I would just try to understand how everyone else was behaving and trying to adapt to those ways. 158 00:22:18,229.5 --> 00:22:46,730.5 Um, but at the same time, I was joining the leadership advocacy group, um, also in the pandemic and also, um, not virtual, but eh, it was a more horizontal space where I was able to actually plan eh activities to get to know each other, try to advocate for in-person meetings and many things that I. 159 00:22:47,384.5 --> 00:22:52,94.5 Knew they were important because of my leadership, um, experiences. 160 00:22:53,24.5 --> 00:22:59,54.5 And, um, it was essential for shaping the team the way it did. 161 00:22:59,759.5 --> 00:23:06,699.5 Uh, and then also, uh, the government of the city of Bueno State was my first professional experience. 162 00:23:06,999.5 --> 00:23:22,94.5 And then when I was almost finishing my process there, eh, someone new, eh, joined the team and she was able to create a more, a friendlier environment. 163 00:23:22,124.5 --> 00:23:30,299.5 Um, and I also learned from her that it was possible at work to actually be yourself and play. 164 00:23:30,479.5 --> 00:23:35,819.5 And I don't know, uh, have a dynamic that I was more comfortable with. 165 00:23:36,39.5 --> 00:23:45,979.5 And since then, in the rest of my professional experiences, I was also able to, I don't know, um, put the, the importance of the. 166 00:23:47,239.5 --> 00:24:03,979.5 The bonds with the team in the center and to try to, to actually make friends and to, um, to pay attention and, and, and give time to, to bonding with, uh, and to presenting yourself and. 167 00:24:05,429.5 --> 00:24:25,739.5 Um, like, I don't know, getting to know each other conversations in lunchtime, uh, playing and having fun and I don't know, looking really what, like looking what the other needs and, and also understanding what I needed in order to be my, to give my best. 168 00:24:26,549.5 --> 00:24:49,709.5 Um, yeah, those are are some things that I started learning, eh, as a also, and maybe at the beginning I was a little shy as a professional to actually bring them with me, but then my imposter syndrome stayed back and I was able to keep going and opening doors with all my toolkit of.
(24:55):
I love the examples you cited of ways in which that playful energy actually looks on the ground asking for people's stories.
It's almost like bringing the person aside from the skillset into the team, the, the nuance and the idiosyncrasy of each individual.
That's part of it.
In you over the course of, of the years that you've worked in, in climate work, you've worked not just with a couple different types of issues.
(25:23):
We, we were talking about, about climate resilience work earlier, but you've also done advocacy.
You have also worked in like different types of settings.
We've, we've mentioned government, you've mentioned advocacy.
You've also been a bit in the private sector too, from what I've gathered.
.5What, what has been your as you've navigated these different settings? Are there limitations to working in one versus the other? Um, I, in my, the closest I worked in the, like, private sector was first as a consultant with different, um, I don't know, teams, uh, and then also in the multilateral sector in a, in a multilateral development bank. 178 00:26:12,974.5 --> 00:26:17,504.5 Um, um, let me think. 179 00:26:17,804.5 --> 00:26:26,174.5 Um, I think there are similarities and there are differences of course. 180 00:26:26,504.5 --> 00:26:31,904.5 Eh, some has to do, have to do with the, with the scope of each. 181 00:26:33,74.5 --> 00:26:35,534.5 Um, it's not the same making decisions for. 182 00:26:36,419.5 --> 00:26:54,689.5 The whole population of a city or population of different cities or countries or the, the impact that a specific enterprise or, or sector has, uh, and related to the scope or the bureaucracy that is behind. 183 00:26:55,559.5 --> 00:27:05,39.5 And of course that also implies, um, a dependency at least until now. 184 00:27:05,39.5 --> 00:27:22,504 And that's how I see it, um, of having someone that is convinced that this agenda is a priority that opens you add more or less or, um, did, where did you have that more so, um, someone who's prior, who had the priority of climate work.
(27:24):
I. 186 00:27:25,444.5 --> 00:27:31,109.5 and it also depends on how do you see that priority, um. 187 00:27:32,84.5 --> 00:27:40,4.5 Like reflected because I don't know, in, in many opportunities. 188 00:27:40,64.5 --> 00:27:44,144.5 Um, and yes, that has, I found it many times. 189 00:27:45,44.5 --> 00:27:54,794.5 You work with people that understand that it is, this is urgent, it is a priority and you have to move everything that you can in order to, to put the climate agenda as a priority. 190 00:27:54,794.5 --> 00:27:58,844.5 But that does not reflect on the budget that they give you. 191 00:27:59,624.5 --> 00:28:08,54.5 So you have to be knocking doors and, and see whose empathy do you, um, get to. 192 00:28:08,504.5 --> 00:28:11,834.5 Yeah, so that's a challenge. 193 00:28:11,834.5 --> 00:28:14,504.5 Um, I think. 194 00:28:16,379.5 --> 00:28:20,189.5 For not having worked as much in the private sector. 195 00:28:20,189.5 --> 00:28:29,999.5 I think in the private sector, I don't know if there's more willingness, but there's less bureaucracy in order to become this entire reality. 196 00:28:29,999.5 --> 00:28:38,969.5 So if it's a, if it's something that's related to the business and will not make you lose money, I think it's easier. 197 00:28:39,899.5 --> 00:28:42,899.5 Um, I don't know. 198 00:28:42,989.5 --> 00:28:57,509.5 It's challenging to actually, um, become something that, or turn something that you know, that you have to, to, to, to make a reality, to actually turn it into something concrete.
(28:58):
You alluded earlier to people having varying degrees of a sense of urgency around climate work and on the, know, uh, most extreme, lowest end of that spectrum is a, is a complete climate negation denial.
(29:18):
is a kind way of putting it.
How do you understand that there are people out there who believe that this is not case? I mean, I, I thought as the years have gone by, I'm continuously more surprised that there are people who still believe that way.
It's, it's denigrating of me.
It's a, it's a judgmental way of seeing perspectives.
(29:41):
I take that, I admit it.
wonder how you understand that there are people who believe that this is not an urgency. 206 00:29:51,59.5 --> 00:29:58,589.5 Um, I think that has to do with, uh, the way that we now consume information. 207 00:29:59,159.5 --> 00:30:28,349.5 So each will believe what they want to believe, and it's really hard to fight that if they're not willing to listen to views that oppose their, um, I, I came to the decision, at least myself, to avoid fighting or wasting energy in people who ies the existence of climate change. 208 00:30:28,889.5 --> 00:30:38,39.5 And I think there's, there is possible dialogue, but I prefer, uh, investing my energy in those that already. 209 00:30:38,744.5 --> 00:30:48,344.5 Agree that this is a, a challenge and then to discuss what we can do about it if they should not be the, the more committed or anything. 210 00:30:48,764.5 --> 00:30:52,274.5 But, um, I don't know. 211 00:30:52,274.5 --> 00:30:55,694.5 I think it's energy better spent.
(30:58):
We were talking off the air about, you're, you're talking about climate messaging, right? On a, on a, in a broad way.
We were talking off the air about a study that showed how communicating to populations, in quotes, the six key truths about climate change leads to better attitudes and behaviors around this issue and.
(31:27):
Kind of going with what you were saying, the first of those, only, the first of those key truths is climate change is real, right? Climate change is happening.
The other five key truths on that first one.
other five are, it's us, right? It's human caused experts agree.
So there's a scientific consensus.
(31:49):
It's bad, meaning this is not good for us others care, meaning I'm not alone in, in feeling this way.
It's a generalized sentiment.
And the last one is, there's hope.
So there's something we can do.
I thought it was a, a lovely way to summarize the different types of messaging that could be communicated around this issue.
(32:13):
.5Which of those is one that you're feeling that you have been working on recently? Um, I am thinking because there is something about the tone that I think shapes everything. 224 00:32:35,519.5 --> 00:32:53,939.5 Uh, I don't, for example, if we pick the responsible responsibility I can of all these six points, it's like we can say it in a catastrophical way or we can say it in a hopeful, hopeful way or in a, I don't know. 225 00:32:53,939.5 --> 00:32:55,589.5 And that changes everything. 226 00:32:56,39.5 --> 00:32:58,829.5 Um, I think. 227 00:32:59,534.5 --> 00:33:17,144.5 And, and it's a, at least here in, in Argentina, there, there is a, a spectrum of how does people, um, or which strategies do each group or yeah, group or sector choose to communicate. 228 00:33:17,144.5 --> 00:33:23,294.5 And there is the more, this is a crisis and, uh, the system is collapsing and so on. 229 00:33:23,624.5 --> 00:33:34,664.5 And it's really interesting, I think also to talk to you about this because there is something about the words that are chosen to, to speak about this that changed everything. 230 00:33:35,504.5 --> 00:33:40,724.5 Um, so the collapse and, and gives a sense of there's nothing you can do about it. 231 00:33:41,809.5 --> 00:33:45,14.5 Uh, and that can lead to many parts. 232 00:33:45,104.5 --> 00:33:51,109.5 But one is like, okay, so I just keep on living my own life until we die and that's it. 233 00:33:51,974.5 --> 00:33:53,864.5 And so it leads to inaction. 234 00:33:55,184.5 --> 00:33:56,349.5 Uh, but at the same time, if there is. 235 00:33:56,999.5 --> 00:34:00,59.5 A lot of hope that also leads to an action. 236 00:34:01,184.5 --> 00:34:16,589.5 Um, so if, if it's like we are on time and it's not our responsibility, that is something that I could say, like it's the responsibility of the 1% richest of the world, so let them fix the this mess. 237 00:34:17,639.5 --> 00:34:26,819.5 Um, but it's not enough if we just keep quiet waiting for others to fix the mess that we didn't cost. 238 00:34:27,509.5 --> 00:34:52,499.5 Um, so what do I do? I think it's unfortunately, um, um, I don't know if it's one of the items in concrete, uh, but, or maybe it's the one that there is hope, but there is hope if we do something about it. 239 00:34:52,499.5 --> 00:34:52,559.5 So. 240 00:34:54,14.5 --> 00:34:55,934.5 Everyone should have these climate lenses. 241 00:34:55,934.5 --> 00:35:06,914.5 And not only that 1% that we were mentioning before, even though they are the ones that should fix it, it's like the, the bottom up approach. 242 00:35:07,364.5 --> 00:35:24,584.5 Uh, we should be also trying to switch tendencies considering that we're limited and that, I don't know what we were talking of the year about vegetarianism and how much our small actions actually shaped the reality or not. 243 00:35:25,64.5 --> 00:35:28,4.5 And I think that's the, the conclusion. 244 00:35:28,4.5 --> 00:35:40,634.5 It's like it's not because we are having meat for lunch and, uh, domingos, asal in a Sunday, a kind of way that will change the world. 245 00:35:40,634.5 --> 00:35:46,994.5 But actually if we can with our choices slowly but steadily, keep changing the tendencies.
(35:48):
I love what you're mentioning I'm struck by the thought that different messages also work for different people.
.5I think some people Sure.
word collapse and like run into that building to try to save it, whereas others will flee from the scene.
.5will stay and watch in a sort Mm-hmm.
voyeuristic way.
(36:08):
So it's like the way we react upon different words is also a a problem.
It almost feels like we need to have fine tuned messaging to each listener. 253 00:36:17,549.5 --> 00:36:17,839.5 Sure. 254 00:36:18,79.5 --> 00:36:20,564.5 I actually, uh, you made me remember that.
I. 256 00:36:21,119.5 --> 00:36:36,389.5 I used to compare, uh, this spectrum of messages and of sectors in the environmental, uh, environment, um, with the Jewish community, uh, that there is also like a different type of Jewish for everyone. 257 00:36:36,629.5 --> 00:36:49,109.5 And there's, there are the ones who keep all the values and everything at an extreme, and they're the ones that maybe are a little more flexible and they are also, and they all keep like the Jewish play mal. 258 00:36:50,39.5 --> 00:36:53,219.5 And I think there's like the same thing with the. 259 00:36:55,34.5 --> 00:37:19,484.5 The environmental advocacy world, there are the ones that are focusing on our small actions and the ones that are focusing on, uh, policymaking at the international scale, and the ones that are waking everyone up with the dramatic words and the ones that are, uh, willing to discuss with enterprises and even with oil companies, and try to see from the inside what are they willing to change.
(37:20):
One big debate in in climate action has been whether or not we should blame individual people for climate catastrophe.
The opposite of that being to blame corporations and the 1% in the richest countries.
Um.
There was a tendency for a long time to blame the vic, to blame the victim, which is true.
(37:40):
But to blame the, the average person and to say, you know, you need to recycle.
You need to eat vegetarian.
You need, and, and it was a bit of a fallacy and, and almost like a cruel act on the, on be on behalf of these corporations who just kind of stuck around doing what they always did while the blame was shifted to the people that said, I think we're trying to, we moved completely to, to the opposite end of that, I think over the last few years and said, it's only the corporation, it's only the government.
(38:05):
It's only richest countries there.
I still, I still focus a lot more, at least, you know, we're saying that we're all in different levels of action.
If, if mine would be, have a name, I think I'd be focused more so on.
Like, people action.
Um, what, those of us, not in government, not incorporations, those of us just kind of like living our lives, doing our lives in a, in a, on a, in a daily way.
(38:29):
The ways in which we are complicit or.
Participative.
To put it more kindly climate catastrophe, one thing I am always interested in is consumption.
I think that until consumption declines dramatically, there will be no solution.
(38:52):
There will be no betterment of this emergency.
.5there behaviors bother you on a people, on a people level? Yeah, but I think it's a systemic crisis and it's kind of easy to blame the system and to wash my hands. 278 00:39:12,584.5 --> 00:39:21,974.5 But there is something about this because I agree with you and there is, we have this consumerism behavior that, that is really worrying. 279 00:39:22,304.5 --> 00:39:41,684.5 But at the same time, what can I do if I, the only clothing that I can afford are, uh, items that actually will, uh, become, I don't know, like they will actually become waste in two years. 280 00:39:41,744.5 --> 00:39:51,44.5 And it's like something that is really hard to get out of because, uh, if you want to buy good quality products, they're really expensive. 281 00:39:51,44.5 --> 00:39:57,914.5 And sometimes they, uh, feel, uh, run, I don't know how to say like, they. 282 00:39:58,499.5 --> 00:40:01,739.5 Um, It ah, exactly. 283 00:40:02,189.5 --> 00:40:11,639.5 Even if you think you're buying like a, an ethic, uh, brand, they can still, I don't know, last only three years sometimes. 284 00:40:11,849.5 --> 00:40:26,69.5 So it's very hard to fight that systemic, um, like behavior like they, this the system that forces us to keep buying and keep buying. 285 00:40:26,339.5 --> 00:40:33,869.5 Of course, we can't fight a lot of that, but it's really, really hard when we are the only one citing it. 286 00:40:33,869.5 --> 00:40:48,899.5 Uh, so I think there is something, um, about that, like we cannot do it only by ourselves and also because we live in a, in a system that. 287 00:40:50,24.5 --> 00:41:15,584.5 Makes us really hard, not only because of the, the consumerism, like because of the trends, uh, but also because, um, we work so many hours outside home and I, there's many people who buy, uh, delivery for lunch every day, and that means a lot of packages that are disposable, thrown out every day. 288 00:41:16,59.5 --> 00:41:26,864.5 Uh, and it's not us to blame that we didn't do meal prep on Sunday, uh, but there's something that is updated about the system. 289 00:41:27,14.5 --> 00:41:34,79.5 We could be working less hours and cooking more for ourselves with intelligent, um, artificial intelligence, for example. 290 00:41:35,264.5 --> 00:41:47,384.5 Um, like why are we working the same, the same time as before if we have a super machine that, uh, could be helping us? So, um. 291 00:41:48,809.5 --> 00:42:05,724.5 I try to not feel guilty about, uh, I don't know, the waste that I make all the time and to there is this term that I really like that I think I mentioned you once that is like imperfect, eh, advocacy in Spanish activity when Perfecto. 292 00:42:06,544.5 --> 00:42:31,919.5 Um, when I found that concept, it was a relief for me because I used to feel guilty at each thing that when I started like understanding the impact of, of reaction, it was very hard for me, eh, at the beginning I tried to do one July without plastic in 2017 or something like that, and I felt so guilty, uh, when I had to throw. 293 00:42:31,949.5 --> 00:42:42,689.5 That made me like, it was, it made me click and, and open my eyes and understand how much waste I was provoking and that you can feel really, um. 294 00:42:44,639.5 --> 00:42:45,539.5 Really guilty. 295 00:42:45,749.5 --> 00:42:56,339.5 If you, if you feel like that one thing that you are throwing away each day, uh, is the cause of the systemic crisis that it is. 296 00:42:56,339.5 --> 00:43:20,159.5 But at the same time, you have a huge corporation throwing loads and loads and providing, I don't know, for example, um, airlines providing each one of the passengers every day a disposable, uh, ly they could, with one decision, they could be preventing so many, uh, forks to be thrown away each day. 297 00:43:20,789.5 --> 00:43:25,199.5 So it's like, that's why I say it's like a complimentary approach. 298 00:43:25,709.5 --> 00:43:33,539.5 Bottom up is important, but because we set trends and not because we'll make a huge difference, we'll feel better with ourselves. 299 00:43:34,504.5 --> 00:43:39,89.5 But if we, if, if we keep throwing away. 300 00:43:40,499.5 --> 00:43:48,359.5 Every day for the rest of our lives, we wouldn't be making many difference in the numbers of emissions. 301 00:43:48,929.5 --> 00:44:16,979.5 Um, I was talking about that with an envi, um, environmental manager the other day because, uh, my brother is a huge fan of Formula One and I was, uh, talking about the, the environmental impact because they fly, uh, the cars around the world without any criteria, like from one country in one continent, they went to another in the completely opposite to go again to the same other continent. 302 00:44:17,369.5 --> 00:44:25,829.5 And I was, uh, mentioning him like, uh, they slide the cars, the teams in the, the drivers in first. 303 00:44:25,889.5 --> 00:44:34,529.5 Uh, he could tell me like if you, um, erased Formula One, uh, so to, to stop their emissions. 304 00:44:35,639.5 --> 00:44:40,319.5 That is really tiny compared to, I don't know, the images in China. 305 00:44:41,369.5 --> 00:44:50,669.5 Um, and of course if we make everything relat new, then nothing is important, and every change is important, but we, I think we, we need to find balance. 306 00:44:51,839.5 --> 00:45:08,519.5 Uh, and that's the activity, perfecto, uh, doing what's possible, and also trying to think in a systemic way, uh, to try to, to motivate others and not only keeping with our own small contribution.
(45:09):
That's real.
I wanna respond to one part of you were saying, the piece about how so many of our climate change contributing actions like ordering delivery or like buying clothes that only lasts for two years.
(45:30):
appreciate.
And I think it's very generous from a social justice lens to shift blame away from person who takes those decisions because they just truly did not have time to, to prepare their food because they also had to take care of their children or because they also had to work for jobs, for example, or the fast fashion that that's just all that they could afford.
(45:52):
I appreciate that and I think it's harder to do so with those actions, but we gotta blame ourselves for something is my thought, is what I find myself thinking.
While, while I hear that, maybe not those, but I can't square, for example, the fact that water bottles still exist, that plastic water bottles still exist.
(46:12):
I have been a user of reusable water, plastic water bottles for at least, at least 10 years, and I find my life is so much better because of it.
a, on a selfish level, pretend, let's pretend it didn't even make climate change better.
It does, but I just like the fact that I've got my own water bottle.
I never have to spend a dime on water anywhere.
(46:33):
Anywhere I go, I'm bringing water with me.
It's almost like a, like an another appendage to me right now, my water bottle.
I think Americans get, like, us Americans get mocked for that sometimes.
Um, and rightly so.
But it's true.
It's true.
So I can't not blame people for that, or even taking plastic bags to the grocery store.
Um, I've, I lived in enough places where that was where they were, they were, they cost money.
(46:57):
Uh, I lived in enough places where they cost money.
That that also motivated me to just have my own cloth bags, which I also just think look really nice and aesthetic, and I use them to go do my groceries.
So I, I feel like we've gotta blame ourselves for something.
Even just now or before this call, I told you, we were talking about, um, shadow out about like the, the tea leaves from our beverages.
(47:19):
And how you did not change yours out from this morning.
Whereas I did change out my tea leaves from this morning.
Could I have, could I have just used the same ones from this morning? Absolutely.
No doubt about it.
I could have used the same ones from this morning.
Should I feel bad about that? I think I should feel bad about that.
don't want to, but I think I sh I think someone should tell me then that's not right.
(47:42):
Someone has to, someone has to tell me that. 337 00:47:45,74.5 --> 00:47:55,274.5 Um, when people throw away, um, reuse all those things in front of me, they, uh, ask me like they say they are sorry for me. 338 00:47:55,274.5 --> 00:47:55,694.5 Like, sorry. 339 00:47:56,264.5 --> 00:47:57,74.5 So throw them out. 340 00:47:57,314.5 --> 00:48:01,514.5 And it's like, don't, don't ask for my permission or my blessing. 341 00:48:01,994.5 --> 00:48:15,824.5 And I, I, um, I think there is, so, like we are ones of, of the small portion of the population who actually feels guilty for not reusing the Sheva. 342 00:48:15,824.5 --> 00:48:17,924.5 Uh, and it's like. 343 00:48:18,614.5 --> 00:48:25,904.5 I started feeling in one moment, like the, uh, and there's no translation. 344 00:48:25,904.5 --> 00:48:43,454.5 I like the silly one who actually feels guilty for every single, uh, silly thing that she throws away when the rest of of people who surround me only only feel guilty when they see me throwing them, throwing out, um, like, like when they throw out their things. 345 00:48:43,904.5 --> 00:48:47,24.5 So, um, I think there's something about that. 346 00:48:47,84.5 --> 00:48:56,474.5 I think there are people who actually could make more effort, um, in, in reducing their impact. 347 00:48:57,104.5 --> 00:49:07,424.5 But at the same time, we that have already like a conscience and a, and a perspective should be not like, uh, blaming our ourselves all the time. 348 00:49:07,424.5 --> 00:49:09,674.5 And also starting, starting to. 349 00:49:10,514.5 --> 00:49:17,954.5 Think strategies that are more systemic to address these things, like the bottle that you mentioned. 350 00:49:17,954.5 --> 00:49:25,94.5 Uh, why some people still not using, um, I don't know, the reusable bottle all the time. 351 00:49:25,874.5 --> 00:49:26,564.5 Uh, I do it. 352 00:49:26,564.5 --> 00:49:33,74.5 I, it's also something that I like, almost like a pet that I carry with me all the time, but I have to buy. 353 00:49:33,394.5 --> 00:49:36,844.5 A valve that actually fit my bottles in. 354 00:49:37,324.5 --> 00:49:45,424.5 So of course I understand that my friends that are more fashion items, that, that more fashion, fashion speak, I know than myself. 355 00:49:46,444.5 --> 00:49:48,874.5 Um, they choose the tiny vs. 356 00:49:48,874.5 --> 00:50:11,554.5 And there's also, but there are more systemic strategies that we could still develop to actually reduce the, the use of water bottles, like, uh, installing, uh, places to, to drink water in the city, or, uh, enabling or forcing restaurants to give you top water for free. 357 00:50:11,554.5 --> 00:50:13,759.5 That is something that here in does not happen. 358 00:50:14,829.5 --> 00:50:16,359.5 Um, at all. 359 00:50:17,79.5 --> 00:50:19,449.5 So I think it's like a combination. 360 00:50:19,569.5 --> 00:50:28,929.5 Uh, and definitely, uh, I know a lot of people that could make more effort and keep, uh, more effort and separate their waste, for example. 361 00:50:29,979.5 --> 00:50:40,959.5 Um, and we should be trying to wake up more people in that context and we shouldn't give up, uh, because that, it's true that every action counts. 362 00:50:41,439.5 --> 00:51:10,584.5 But at the same time, I think, um, the most important is to, to, uh, aim higher and to try to, to develop, I don't know, startups and businesses and, and projects from governments that enable us to address these small decisions that we make every day that make us, um, have a higher impact, that the impact that we want to have.
(51:12):
I'm especially on board with the idea of forcing restaurants to refill water bottles.
I have had to perfect my own pitch for Yeah, to please, please fill up my water bottle.
I think I have a pretty good success ratio at this point.
And it, it's all about the empathy.
It's all about getting the, the right tone in your question.
(51:34):
Other and, and like them feel like it's obvious that they have to fill it up. 369 00:51:40,339.5 --> 00:51:41,144.5 the new one. 370 00:51:41,144.5 --> 00:51:43,34.5 I want that strategy now. 371 00:51:43,34.5 --> 00:51:52,454.5 And for example, when I started composting, um, I learned that in New York in that time, I think that's not the case anymore. 372 00:51:52,454.5 --> 00:51:57,854.5 But, uh, there were, uh, many, um, like community, uh. 373 00:51:58,679.5 --> 00:52:03,299.5 Places where people actually took their compost, and that was that. 374 00:52:03,599.5 --> 00:52:34,889.5 And here I had to buy my own at home compost maker and to, I don't know, um, to make myself dirty or to, and something that I heard an entrepreneur sell say about, um, how to reduce, um, each one of the citizen's impact was like, you have to try to make the consumer or the citizen or whatever, the less uncomfortable as possible. 375 00:52:36,599.5 --> 00:52:39,239.5 Uh, like it shouldn't bother them as much. 376 00:52:39,419.5 --> 00:52:49,949.5 So for example, he had developed, um, a machine, uh, that you dispose your organic waste and it turned it into, um, um. 377 00:52:51,779.5 --> 00:53:02,400.5 Like food for, for cattle and animals, and they actually took care of, um, picking up that, uh, product. 378 00:53:02,699.5 --> 00:53:18,809.5 So you didn't have to do almost anything different and your life could still be the same and you were, uh, reducing in a half your environmental footprint because waste, uh, a half of our waste is, is organic. 379 00:53:19,889.5 --> 00:53:31,829.5 Um, so I think it's a way to, to see things in order to actually be able to develop strategies to, to drive change.
(53:32):
Yeah, I, I'm, I'm thinking back to the six key truths while we're talking.
First, I was thinking about your friends who, uh, who say, sorry.
So when they throw something out.
I think that the two key truths that are, um, missing there, ironically, the one that the truth about it's bad missing there.
(53:53):
'cause it's like there, before we even talk about that, it's us.
It's like this is a problem, right? It's like almost like it's a you thing, like change is something sword cares about.
.5Um, and it's a, it's sort of personal Yeah.
Um, and I am sorry so that I'm not helping you with that.
I think that there's the, it's us is clear maybe that it's bad's not, and then with the solution around, um, cattle feed that they come pick up your organic waste from your house.
(54:22):
There.
I feel like it's, again, it sort of goes past all of these.
.5If bypasses all of Mm-hmm.
.5it doesn't Yeah.
if you care about climate change.
At all Maybe.
Maybe it does.
It definitely motivates you a little bit to participate in this program, but you don't have to think it's real or it's us, or it's bad, or there's hope that it almost doesn't matter.
You just do something beyond the fact of climate change. 398 00:54:46,934.5 --> 00:55:01,334.5 I think there is something, um, I was thinking while listening to you that sometimes those who actually tell me, sorry, I'm still generating impact when I know I could avoid this. 399 00:55:02,84.5 --> 00:55:03,104.5 Um. 400 00:55:04,709.5 --> 00:55:20,579.5 They don't really feel that this, it's val uh, reality or truth will actually affect them because, uh, we are very privileged and I put myself into that, uh, package also. 401 00:55:21,359.5 --> 00:55:32,519.5 So whenever, uh, I don't know a flow comes, I'm supposed to have a roof that I can, uh, be under and survive that flow. 402 00:55:32,729.5 --> 00:55:45,299.5 Or when there is a heat wave, I have a, a swimming pool, not mine, that I have friends who have, and I could go there or turn on the air conditioning and I could survive with not much travel. 403 00:55:45,299.5 --> 00:55:49,349.5 And I think one challenge that we still have is to actually, um. 404 00:55:52,19.5 --> 00:56:03,989.5 Wake up people and make them understand that, I don't know, energy will be, uh, more and more expensive because we all will be turning on our conditionings. 405 00:56:03,989.5 --> 00:56:13,349.5 And here in Montes Aires, we have a lot of energy shortcuts, um, that the floods, uh, will make disasters and the economy will be affected. 406 00:56:13,349.5 --> 00:56:25,739.5 And like we have to make these connections in order to this, uh, will actually, um, in Spanish is like, I don't know the translation, but I like that word.
(56:25):
.5that you'll Yeah, touched you'll feel it personal. 408 00:56:29,309.5 --> 00:56:29,639.5 Yeah. 409 00:56:29,714.5 --> 00:56:33,359.5 Or that it'll impact you also and not just the world. 410 00:56:33,389.5 --> 00:56:38,579.5 Like something that is not, that has not to do with you.
On that theme of climate messaging, one of the initiatives that's been in place recently by certain climate organizations is to encourage the media to draw that connection with climate change.
(56:50):
Whenever there is a natural disaster, which I've noticed, an increasing, I've noticed as an increasing trend.
You know, whenever there is a flood or where there is a hurricane or so on, on occasion, you see that connection explicitly stated.
Um, which then leads to the media organizations being criticized certainly, but feels like a piece of that puzzle.
(57:11):
Uh, before we, we, we close out for today, there, there's just one or two more things I wanted to ask you about.
is the nuance of working in the global south, the way, the way that which is the most of the way you have been working with cities, networks, uh, often centered in this area, and you're also soon to go up to the global north, uh, taking maybe some of these lessons or some of these nuances with you.
(57:39):
Uh, I don't know if you're familiar with this, but I was recently, um, educated by, um, an anthropologist about how global south is a term to be retired and the be the better one to use is global majority. 418 00:57:54,14.5 --> 00:57:54,794.5 I like that.
I like that too.
I like that too.
Well, I'm wondering what, what have been some of the specific.
(58:01):
Opportunities and challenges of working in the global south for you? I. 423 00:58:06,169.5 --> 00:58:06,459.5 Okay. 424 00:58:07,124.5 --> 00:58:12,224.5 Um, there's a lot, uh, we were talking, uh, before we started about. 425 00:58:13,244.5 --> 00:58:22,904.5 How the climate agenda is something that has to do with geopolitics and that behind climate negotiations, each country is fighting for their own interest. 426 00:58:23,474.5 --> 00:58:53,929.5 And it's really interesting because you see like, um, fights between including or we era, some different words that enable, I don't know, a country to actually, uh, produce more, um, of something that is not organic certified, for example, or I don't know, um, emit certain kind of emission, like it has to do with a lot of things, things related to commerce and production and, and. 427 00:58:55,784.5 --> 00:59:20,204.5 I don't know how much do they want to change the status quo? Uh, and something that is still less popular in the climate agenda is the adaptation agenda, which is the one that the global majority or the South should be focusing on because, um, we do not have, uh, systems that are prepared for the effects of the climate crisis. 428 00:59:20,504.5 --> 00:59:34,994.5 And so the effects of them, of, of the floods, of the intensive heat or whatever that increases with the region we are in, um, will be very hard to recover, uh, from. 429 00:59:36,74.5 --> 00:59:48,974.5 Um, and that is, uh, something that is urgent and, and that is really now like the more popular agenda is the mediation and is, uh, like trying to reducing the carbon footprint. 430 00:59:49,34.5 --> 00:59:52,184.5 It's also something that it's really like. 431 00:59:53,744.5 --> 01:00:01,304.5 It looked nice because you plant some trees and you put a nice number on some advertising place. 432 01:00:01,994.5 --> 01:00:04,604.5 You are carbon neutral by 2030. 433 01:00:04,694.5 --> 01:00:05,444.5 Amazing. 434 01:00:05,654.5 --> 01:00:17,714.5 And maybe like preventing, um, an impact of the climate crisis to happen is less, um, um, yeah, yeah. 435 01:00:19,79.5 --> 01:00:27,554.5 But, but it's really important and it's, it has to do with the specifics, uh, ways of living in the, in the. 436 01:00:28,169.5 --> 01:00:32,129.5 I will keep saying global out for a little more, but because it comes easier. 437 01:00:32,699.5 --> 01:00:43,829.5 Uh, but for example, the informal settlements, uh, we've discussed this a lot, um, are very little prepared for the heat. 438 01:00:43,874.5 --> 01:00:45,59.5 For the rain. 439 01:00:45,59.5 --> 01:00:52,709.5 Uh, they do not have, um, materials that actually absorb, uh, water from the rain. 440 01:00:52,709.5 --> 01:00:58,739.5 They do not have a stable electricity to fight the heat or the, or the. 441 01:01:00,359.5 --> 01:01:03,389.5 The lower temperatures. 442 01:01:03,864.5 --> 01:01:14,909.5 Uh, so it's, um, and that impacts the ability of the low income workers that are essentially in any city to actually work each day. 443 01:01:15,184.5 --> 01:01:18,44.5 And so that has impacts with the health system. 444 01:01:18,329.5 --> 01:01:26,459.5 And that's when you start connecting everything and, and realizing that it, it, the, the, the truth that it's valid. 445 01:01:26,459.5 --> 01:01:30,209.5 It's not only valid for others, but for everyone I.
(01:01:32):
That feels like a lesson to be had in this hemisphere. 447 01:01:35,249.5 --> 01:01:35,609.5 Yeah. 448 01:01:35,699.5 --> 01:02:06,689.5 Uh, and at the same time you asked me about like opportunities and I think, and that's a nice way of seeing it, and another need being pessimistic about it, is well before saying, using the term global south, we used to say, uh, developing countries and we are still developing and we have still opportunities of designing our cities and our ecosystems in a way that is more friendly to the crisis that we're addressing. 449 01:02:07,769.5 --> 01:02:23,519.5 Um, it's a challenge at the same time because that sometimes may mean, I don't know, choosing the different material that is a little bit more expensive, but in the long term it'll be cheaper because you will not have to reveal that place, uh, and so on.
(01:02:24):
.5Like the system is still so, um, it's still taking shape, Mm-hmm.
is true of everywhere, but especially maybe true of places that are still reaching their pinnacle of growth. 452 01:02:35,264.5 --> 01:02:35,684.5 Mm-hmm.
What has been one of the ways that you've built networks and communities around climate work? It's one of the things that's most fascinating to me about the way that you operate in this space.
(01:02:47):
That you seem to know many people, uh, you've connected me, the people, uh, I've heard people talk about you, you know, I feel like you're very, you have like a fabric of community around this.
.5How have you built that? Um, it's a nice question and thank you for asking it. 456 01:03:06,824.5 --> 01:03:19,574.5 Um, I believe it's a way of, of, um, actually getting to fulfill, uh, any objective that I set myself to. 457 01:03:20,144.5 --> 01:03:29,924.5 Uh, it's at the same time a little bit revolutionary because there as any environment, there is a lot of egos around and people that. 458 01:03:30,239.5 --> 01:03:33,629.5 I want to be like the most important ones. 459 01:03:35,9.5 --> 01:03:42,659.5 Um, but I found that making synergy was always a way to open more doors. 460 01:03:43,139.5 --> 01:04:00,359.5 So I tried to, um, in the projects that I knew to, to take time, to take care of these bonds that I start creating and, um, to give space to different organizations. 461 01:04:00,359.5 --> 01:04:11,69.5 Um, and of course it's sometimes it's harder because it means, I don't know, sharing, decision making or sharing the spotlight or anything. 462 01:04:11,219.5 --> 01:04:17,729.5 But at the same time, I think it's, it's maybe a slower way of growing, but at the same time, steadier, because you have this. 463 01:04:18,329.5 --> 01:04:20,969.5 Support of different places. 464 01:04:21,359.5 --> 01:04:35,969.5 And at the same time in the international sphere, um, I found it convenient to just be myself because I was one of the few Argentinians or even people from South America that was in those places. 465 01:04:36,419.5 --> 01:04:41,129.5 And of course that's a huge responsibility, but at the same time, it's not as hard to be unique. 466 01:04:41,219.5 --> 01:04:46,844.5 I just have to make, uh, everyone try mate and they will remember me. 467 01:04:47,304.5 --> 01:05:00,689.5 Uh, but there is something about connecting genuinely with people and not only going there to shake hands and give man my card that I think has, is, is key for solid relationships.
(01:05:01):
.5Yeah, the bonding and presenting ourselves that Mm-hmm.
about earlier.
.5And just Yeah.
.5to close, a question that you wish people asked more often climate conversations? Hmm. 472 01:05:15,254.5 --> 01:05:15,474.5 Um. 473 01:05:18,944.5 --> 01:05:38,564.5 I think, um, sometimes we are so focused on, I don't know, strategies or making decisions or this evil thing that we were just mentioning that we forget the human that we have in front of. 474 01:05:39,374.5 --> 01:05:58,724.5 Um, so I really like to ask, and I would love to, to listen more to the question on like, how do you see the effects of climate change in your city and what could be done to prevent that or what are you already doing? Because it's a way of getting to know a place and the people. 475 01:05:58,724.5 --> 01:06:07,514.5 Um, and of course behind that there is, there are a lot of, of stories of people who lose their houses or, I don't know, it's. 476 01:06:08,279.5 --> 01:06:17,729.5 But at the same time of, of people, uh, are like hopeful stories because in, in the ecosystem there's a lot of, of people doing amazing things. 477 01:06:18,119.5 --> 01:06:29,579.5 So they, they tell you about the education project they're doing, um, that changed the life of people and the legislation that they just launched. 478 01:06:29,579.5 --> 01:06:34,709.5 Like, there's so many positive stories to hear after that question as well.
(01:06:36):
This has been lovely.
Thank you so much. 481 01:06:39,929.5 --> 01:06:41,369.5 Thanks for the invitation. 482 01:06:46,650.8928627 --> 01:06:47,700.8928627 Thanks for being here. 483 01:06:48,270.8928627 --> 01:06:55,800.8928627 If this conversation resonated with you, consider reviewing therapy for the world or sharing the link with someone who might appreciate it. 484 01:06:56,460.8928627 --> 01:06:59,910.8928627 Until next time, speak with care and listen deeply.
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