Thirty Years of Listening, From the Clinic to the Page

(from 2024) | Lili Pazos is a writer and psychologist who has lived around the world. We talk about the intersection of psychology and writing, her experiences working in psychiatric hospitals, and what she learned along the way. She discusses her childhood curiosity about madness, her deep dive into art therapy, and her current ventures in writing.

 

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Music credits: “Limit 70,” licensed by Kevin MacLeod “Meditation” by Jules Massenet, from the Library of Congress Jukebox

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
It's so interesting when there's something going on, that time changes, that completely changes.

(00:06):
So then I was ready.
It's like, okay, maybe I, I don't know where.
Where I want to be, you know, and, uh, uh, I don't know.
This city is fascinating.
Uh, you, well, you know already, but you have like, uh, people from everywhere.
You listen to 10 different languages just in, you know, in, uh, in, in one train. 8 00:00:26,234.999 --> 00:00:39,835 And, uh, uh, so, uh, the, the, the multicultural, uh, Approach is for me is very important because keeps you awake, keeps you open, keeps you meeting different people all the time.

(00:40):
And then there's a lot of nature in Berlin.
For being a big city, it's like there's so much nature.
.999So it's that combination, you know, it's like nature and people from everywhere. 12 00:00:51,575.099 --> 00:00:55,355 So it's like having a tiny piece of, you know, the culture of the countries. 13 00:00:55,727.806066186 --> 00:00:56,297.806066186 okay. 14 00:00:56,517.806066186 --> 00:00:59,797.806066186 I think it's one of the top three B cities in the world. 15 00:00:59,997.806066186 --> 00:01:05,427.806066186 I think of Barcelona, Buenos Aires, and Berlin on a similar category. 16 00:01:06,477.806066186 --> 00:01:26,242.805066186 you you strike me as a mosaic of sorts, um, not just because of the tattoos that I see on your body, which are really striking and beautiful, But also because of all the cities you've named, all the different influences, how do you introduce yourself to new people? I imagine you must meet new people often as an expat, you know, in different cities. 17 00:01:26,242.806066186 --> 00:01:31,863.875952525 How do you introduce yourself? yeah, as Argentinian, no doubt, you know, that that's for sure. 18 00:01:31,893.876952525 --> 00:01:49,613.87695253 It's like, uh, it's, uh, I don't know that that's, that's, uh, I don't know, embedded in the DNA, you know, and, uh, Were you born with that? That's, uh, because I've been reading some of, uh, articles and, uh, I watched this short video of you. 19 00:01:49,643.87695253 --> 00:01:52,793.87695253 It was, just the video was enough to have the perception. 20 00:01:52,863.87695253 --> 00:01:55,193.87695253 Oh, no, you know, we're going to have a beautiful conversation. 21 00:01:55,203.87595253 --> 00:01:57,683.87595253 This guy is like, you're so kind. 22 00:01:57,703.87795253 --> 00:02:05,948.87695253 You strike to me so kind and so Open minded and so, and wanted to, wanted to be good. 23 00:02:06,158.87695253 --> 00:02:07,478.87695253 That's what I would say about you. 24 00:02:07,478.87695253 --> 00:02:09,638.87695253 It's like, you want to do the right, right things. 25 00:02:09,638.87695253 --> 00:02:19,718.87695253 And, uh, so no, I mean, I'm not surprised that you're going deeper and deeper into people and their minds and their, because I don't know, it's like you, you're a people person for sure. 26 00:02:19,748.87595253 --> 00:02:21,538.87695253 But, uh, I don't know. 27 00:02:21,538.87695253 --> 00:02:24,688.87695253 So I was just like, I'm so happy about, you know, doing this and meeting him. 28 00:02:25,378.87695253 --> 00:02:28,728.87695253 And, uh, but I don't know if you were born in Buenos Aires or in the States. 29 00:02:28,907.80606619 --> 00:02:30,167.80606619 So I was born in Buenos Aires. 30 00:02:30,167.80606619 --> 00:02:30,637.80606619 Yes. 31 00:02:31,18.87695253 --> 00:02:31,883.87695253 Ah, ah, okay. 32 00:02:31,913.87695253 --> 00:02:32,273.87695253 Okay. 33 00:02:32,637.80606619 --> 00:02:39,7.80606619 I had the same feeling about you, uh, reading, reading your work, reading your work and reading about the history of your life. 34 00:02:39,227.80606619 --> 00:02:46,167.80506619 The places you've been starting with psychiatric hospitals, but also burrasco, burrasco, I think is the pronunciation. 35 00:02:46,427.80506619 --> 00:02:49,337.80606619 Um, just seeing that, bursaco, bursaco, thank you. 36 00:02:49,717.80606619 --> 00:02:58,93.87695253 Um, just seeing the trajectory you've taken and then the, Semi exit from psychology, because you're coming Yeah. 37 00:02:58,93.87695253 --> 00:02:58,693.87695253 It's semi. 38 00:02:58,693.87695253 --> 00:02:59,53.87695253 Yeah. 39 00:02:59,463.87695253 --> 00:03:07,292.80606619 Yeah, coming into writing with a very important psychological imprint too, so I was equally excited to speak to you. 40 00:03:07,292.80606619 --> 00:03:13,402.80606619 Today's also a very rainy morning, which was excellent weather for reading your novel in verse. 41 00:03:15,422.80606619 --> 00:03:17,672.80606619 So yeah, no, the admiration is mutual. 42 00:03:26,729.98466446 --> 00:03:36,149.98466446 You are listening to Therapy for the World, an interview series with kind thought-provoking people working along the spectrum of self-care and world care. 43 00:03:36,899.98466446 --> 00:03:46,529.98466446 I'm Dan, a writing therapist and teacher, and this is my conversation with Lili Basos, a writer and psychologist who has lived around the world. 44 00:03:47,339.98466446 --> 00:03:53,669.98466446 We recorded this conversation in early 2024, so it's a bit outdated, but hopefully still fresh. 45 00:03:54,179.98466446 --> 00:03:55,19.98466446 Happy listening. 46 00:04:06,3.91282891 --> 00:04:11,753.91282891 I do see some words in your writing that are very German like. 47 00:04:11,783.91182891 --> 00:04:17,833.81182891 Of course, they're in Spanish, but they're Oh, like what? Debajo del mundo. 48 00:04:17,833.91182891 --> 00:04:18,323.91182891 Pensamiento actor protagonista. 49 00:04:19,373.91282891 --> 00:04:20,228.81282891 Mujer libre. 50 00:04:20,284.98371525 --> 00:04:25,464.98371525 I, oh my, I, I just love, I love you saying that. 51 00:04:25,474.98371525 --> 00:04:28,84.98271525 Thanks, actually, just thanks for saying it. 52 00:04:28,94.98371525 --> 00:04:33,614.98271525 Because before coming here, I didn't know a word of German, really. 53 00:04:33,614.98371525 --> 00:05:08,749.98371525 Like, it was those languages that is like a, I don't even know when the, the, a word ends and when another one starts and have no idea like what you know with all the latin languages if you have a little bit of a good ear you can catch up everything or a lot or at least a little bit you know always but with this language it was like oh okay i have no clue whatsoever so i started i started doing courses you know I still don't speak, I mean, I can, I finished B1, but I consider myself absolutely a beginner, you know, I say, I need to assimilate, you know, all the information I have, because it's a lot. 54 00:05:09,459.98371525 --> 00:05:22,494.98371525 Uh, but I'm kind of fascinated about this, you know, Lego language and, uh, It's, it's so hard, but at the same time, I think it's so beautiful and so, it's so interesting. 55 00:05:23,54.98371525 --> 00:05:25,204.98371525 I never thought about what you're saying. 56 00:05:25,204.98371525 --> 00:05:29,394.98271525 It's like, uh, but it's true that I had that in my mind already. 57 00:05:29,394.98371525 --> 00:05:32,884.98371525 I was like, uh, yeah, anticipating it. 58 00:05:32,914.98271525 --> 00:05:34,244.98371525 That's so interesting. 59 00:05:34,454.98371525 --> 00:05:35,324.98371525 I love words. 60 00:05:35,718.91282891 --> 00:05:37,8.91282891 does a lot of beautiful things. 61 00:05:37,8.91282891 --> 00:05:47,438.91282891 The German language, one of, one of the ones that we're, I guess, appreciating right now is the, the composite words that like combine an infinite number of words sometimes into one word with no spaces. 62 00:05:47,738.91282891 --> 00:05:47,979.91282891 Um, and. 63 00:05:48,609.98371525 --> 00:05:49,9.98371525 Yeah. 64 00:05:49,53.91282891 --> 00:06:05,893.91382891 And another thing that's also beautiful is the use of prepositions in German, and you're right, even if one does not stick to German as their language, you know, English and Spanish are also important languages for you, it kind of like follows you into the other languages, this desire to bring things, to moshposh a lot of different words together. 65 00:06:06,189.98371525 --> 00:06:14,239.98371525 no, yeah, no, but it's so interesting because, uh, I mean, uh, I always have this idea and I've heard other people saying the same thing. 66 00:06:14,249.98271525 --> 00:06:24,459.98371525 I don't know, because you're properly bilingual, you know, I, I just, I became fluent in English, just traveling, you know, but I never lived in a country where English is the, the official language or anything like it. 67 00:06:25,109.98371525 --> 00:06:30,29.98371525 Uh, just the one I used to be able to communicate, but you're probably, I mean, you're a proper bilingual. 68 00:06:30,619.98371525 --> 00:06:47,174.98371525 But I absolutely agree with the idea that you a little bit kind of change when you're using a different language and uh, the kinds of things, a couple of things even regarding to personality that they are, I don't know, Uh, stronger with one language or the other one. 69 00:06:47,344.98371525 --> 00:06:49,384.98371525 Although I'm moving a lot of my hands now. 70 00:06:49,385.08371525 --> 00:06:50,814.98371525 It's like all I'm saying. 71 00:06:51,964.98371525 --> 00:06:57,464.98371525 Uh, but yeah, there's something about probably the words you choose, you know. 72 00:06:57,464.98371525 --> 00:06:58,524.98321525 There's something about it. 73 00:06:58,524.98321525 --> 00:06:59,504.98271525 It's different, you know. 74 00:06:59,504.98371525 --> 00:07:13,929.98371525 It's uh, there's something that it's uh, Related to, well, to the language, you know, and even if you're, well, when you're talking to someone that is also bilingual, sometimes you use words that are more effective in the other language, so you start mixing them. 75 00:07:14,589.98371525 --> 00:07:23,509.98371525 And, uh, but, but it's absolutely true that Every language opens a different door inside. 76 00:07:24,79.98371525 --> 00:07:31,919.98371525 So when that door is open, you can start, you know, using or catching up, you know, what you see in there. 77 00:07:32,739.98371525 --> 00:07:34,989.98371525 It's interesting, but I just, I love words. 78 00:07:35,269.98371525 --> 00:07:39,439.98371525 It's just something about, well the symbols you know, I love words. 79 00:07:39,439.98371525 --> 00:07:43,689.98371525 So although, you know, the gram, I don't love grammar, let me tell you. 80 00:07:43,739.98371525 --> 00:07:57,209.98371525 I don't like, I don't love it, but I love, of course, being able to communicate, but I love the words, I love like, you know, they're like, uh, Not just a symbol, like they are almost objects, you know, it's like everything that comes with a word. 81 00:07:57,599.98371525 --> 00:08:17,788.91282891 So in that sense, you know, like being a psychologist, studying psychology, reading, writing, it's that there's words everywhere, like, uh, words are like, uh, yeah, I'm going to read something that you wrote about words, and we're going to do a little bit of live translation because it's in Spanish. 82 00:08:18,778.91282891 --> 00:08:26,288.91182891 The word as a tool to announce truths in such a way that you can look them in the eyes and sustain the gaze. 83 00:08:26,978.91282891 --> 00:08:36,618.91282891 Right? That's something that occurs when you write something down on a page, as opposed to saying it where it kind of just filters on by like the wind. 84 00:08:37,709.98271525 --> 00:08:42,418.91282891 yeah, yeah, So, writing is something you, you came to. 85 00:08:42,438.91282891 --> 00:09:07,34.98271525 At what point in your, in your trajectory did you start writing? Uh, Well, I studied probably like every writer, like when you're a teenager and you're, I don't know, depressed in a way, or in a, in a teenage way, you know, like, it's like you're, you're feeling, I don't know, the angst, you're feeling something that is like, okay, oh, this is the world, but nothing serious, you know, back then. 86 00:09:07,724.98271525 --> 00:09:15,164.98371525 And then it's funny because, uh, when I never had any doubts about the psychology as my career. 87 00:09:15,704.98371525 --> 00:09:31,385.03371525 Although I've always been interested in arts, I've been, uh, I know I'm also a photographer and I've been doing a couple of things regarding arts, uh, but I just love, every time I need to do something related to any paper I need to write in college, I loved it. 88 00:09:31,385.03371525 --> 00:09:35,924.98271525 It was like, oh yeah, this, you know, I have to write this and it's like, I was like too excited. 89 00:09:36,714.98271525 --> 00:09:45,709.98371525 Um, And then, but yeah, after years of finishing college, I started like, okay, no, I just, I, I need this channel. 90 00:09:45,939.98371525 --> 00:10:15,154.98371525 I need this channel to, to communicate like, but I, I need this channel to become wider, not just for myself or for my thoughts, you know? And I don't know, I think it was, uh, 30 something, uh, but yeah, 30 something, uh, that I started like writing But then remain there, you know, like, uh, for another couple of years, you know, so it's like a long, for me, it was a very long process. 91 00:10:15,594.98371525 --> 00:10:26,354.98371525 Uh, I think, um, yeah, every once in a while there, there will be something that changed the, the sort of the status, you know, of the situation. 92 00:10:26,364.98371525 --> 00:10:30,164.98371525 It's like, uh, and it became more and more serious, you know, let's say. 93 00:10:30,164.98371525 --> 00:10:32,614.98371525 And, uh, when I decided to. 94 00:10:33,64.98371525 --> 00:10:53,984.98371525 To finish all the, everything related to the, you know, to psychotherapy, uh, probably end up doing something related to social stuff, you know, because I'm very interested in, I don't know, whatever, immigration or refugees, uh, very, this is a city where, you know, where you can do something interesting regarding that, and that I will probably end up doing something like that. 95 00:10:54,264.98371525 --> 00:11:00,524.98371525 I actually had my, I already have my degree validated, uh, for Germany. 96 00:11:00,554.98371525 --> 00:11:01,808.91182891 So That's huge. 97 00:11:01,968.91282891 --> 00:11:03,478.91182891 That's really, really important. 98 00:11:04,459.98371525 --> 00:11:24,19.88371525 Yeah, uh, but there was a time that I thought, okay, uh, and I, I, I truly love my patients, you know, I, as I'm, I'm so grateful with all the people I met along the, along the way, you know, and it's been, but I'm not sure if it's this year, no, next year. 99 00:11:24,319.98371525 --> 00:11:31,39.98371525 It would be like, uh, 30 years, uh, that I finished, you know, university. 100 00:11:31,39.98371525 --> 00:11:33,619.98371525 So it's like, it's a good time to, to shift. 101 00:11:33,669.98271525 --> 00:11:45,824.98371525 And, uh, this year I'm doing this shift and, uh, I started to have this very strong feeling that It was a time, uh, you know, for, for my, for my stories. 102 00:11:45,844.98371525 --> 00:12:01,624.98271525 It's like, okay, I've been listening to many stories and I love, uh, it was, uh, I'm telling you again, I could have been more grateful, but it's like, uh, now I'm, I have this urge of telling my stories and I have to do it, you know, because I, this is very, very strong. 103 00:12:02,294.98271525 --> 00:12:05,504.98371525 And then, well, the series of the essays is going to keep going now. 104 00:12:05,574.98371525 --> 00:12:09,514.98271525 I finished one, it's about control and that's about, uh, all the. 105 00:12:11,239.98371525 --> 00:12:12,939.98371525 The other one was, yeah, the psychiatric hospital. 106 00:12:12,949.98371525 --> 00:12:27,289.98371525 And now it's going to be more about, uh, yeah, the, the, the, the, uh, all the psychotherapy I've been doing, you know, and, uh, it's as well, uh, stories about trips and personal stories. 107 00:12:27,469.98271525 --> 00:12:32,639.98371525 And, and, and then that psychology, like, uh, uh, the, the psychology. 108 00:12:32,989.98371525 --> 00:12:34,299.98371525 I as well, you know, is there. 109 00:12:34,779.98371525 --> 00:12:38,989.98371525 Uh, so the essays are going to keep coming, but it's like, yeah, I have to do that so strongly. 110 00:12:39,579.98371525 --> 00:12:43,29.98371525 And when you write, you can reach people you don't know as well. 111 00:12:43,859.98371525 --> 00:12:49,769.98321525 And you can reach, uh, I don't want to say more people because it's not about the quantity, but, but you can, I don't know. 112 00:12:49,769.98321525 --> 00:12:56,929.98371525 There's a, there's something that goes through a different, you know, with patients is so strong. 113 00:12:56,929.98371525 --> 00:12:57,609.98371525 It's so strong. 114 00:12:57,619.98371525 --> 00:13:03,264.98371525 The connection is so, uh, It's two people, you know, and it's very, very, very strong. 115 00:13:03,724.98371525 --> 00:13:21,384.98271525 But with writing it's, uh, I don't know, uh, I don't know, uh, I don't want to say it's a bigger door, because it's completely different, but there's something about, uh, being able to cross other bridges, sort of. 116 00:13:21,524.98371525 --> 00:13:35,64.98371525 Uh, um, yeah, I would say something like that, like, uh, And, uh, well, of course, everything we do is embedded with our own history and what we need and what we learn about ourselves. 117 00:13:35,64.98371525 --> 00:13:41,664.98371525 And so, but, uh, but I think it's great like being over 50 and okay, shifting my whole career. 118 00:13:41,924.98371525 --> 00:13:48,834.98371525 It's like, it's crazy, but I'm loving it at the same time, you know, but it's like, it's, it's now. 119 00:13:48,864.98371525 --> 00:13:49,884.98371525 I mean, I have to do it now. 120 00:13:49,934.98371525 --> 00:13:53,674.98371525 It's, it's very, it's a very strong feeling that it's like, I have to do it now. 121 00:13:53,818.91282891 --> 00:14:04,209.98371525 was it zero to a hundred that you stopped seeing patients from one day to another or do you still hold on to a couple patients? Yeah Yeah slowly. 122 00:14:04,289.98371525 --> 00:14:12,69.98371525 Uh, I, like maybe two, two, three years ago, I had a, I had lot, like lots of patients. 123 00:14:12,99.98271525 --> 00:14:20,809.98271525 And, uh, because of all the years I've been working, I had many patients that they would do one session or a couple of sessions that they finish, will finish already years ago. 124 00:14:20,809.98271525 --> 00:14:23,159.98371525 And it's like, Oh, I want to treat something very specific. 125 00:14:23,159.98371525 --> 00:14:26,629.98371525 And you kind of do something with a new one, but with someone that. 126 00:14:27,79.98371525 --> 00:14:28,79.98371525 That knows the process. 127 00:14:28,79.98371525 --> 00:14:35,939.98371525 You can totally do a couple of sessions, you know, so I stopped taking new patients, uh, already living in Bali. 128 00:14:35,939.98371525 --> 00:14:40,179.98371525 It's like, uh, I'm not going to take any, uh, anyone new because I know I can risk. 129 00:14:40,784.98371525 --> 00:14:57,434.98271525 I mean, there are long processes, you know, so, um, and then, um, I, March last year, everyone knew that, okay, I'm not taking any new ones, you know, because, uh, they would ask me, I went to really, it's like, no, I'm just not taking a new one. 130 00:14:58,144.98371525 --> 00:15:07,474.98371525 And March last year, I told the, the ones that, that were, I was still working with, uh, at the end of the year, I will finish every. 131 00:15:07,879.98371525 --> 00:15:10,669.98371525 Every process that is, uh, you know, ongoing. 132 00:15:11,369.98371525 --> 00:15:21,229.98371525 So I did it very slowly, very, you know, it, it, it was, uh, I, I thought it was the, the most responsible way, you know, uh, slowly. 133 00:15:21,229.98371525 --> 00:15:23,49.98371525 And, uh, yeah. 134 00:15:23,49.98371525 --> 00:15:26,619.98371525 So I, I, I told everyone like almost a year in advance. 135 00:15:26,619.98371525 --> 00:15:28,299.98371525 It's like, this is gonna be the last year. 136 00:15:28,899.98371525 --> 00:15:32,589.98371525 And December was crazy because it was, uh, it was beautiful. 137 00:15:32,589.98371525 --> 00:15:33,699.98371525 It was very touching. 138 00:15:34,269.98371525 --> 00:16:04,474.98371525 And it was very strong, you know, it's like, okay, so I started January with so weird not to have any Not being worried about, you know, it's like it was so strange, but it's uh, I don't know, uh, because I knew I mean to be totally honest like I knew that if I would Last year I thought, okay, if, if I keep doing this, uh, because many people ask, but why don't you, you know, just, you don't have to put a, you don't have, you don't need a deadline or anything. 139 00:16:04,484.98371525 --> 00:16:05,344.98271525 It's like, no, yeah, I do. 140 00:16:05,354.98371525 --> 00:16:12,864.98371525 Because, uh, now I know I can still put my hundred percent, you know, my, my, my, my soul is in, it's in every session. 141 00:16:12,864.98371525 --> 00:16:14,724.98371525 If not, uh, I don't want to do it. 142 00:16:15,34.98371525 --> 00:16:20,944.98371525 And if I keep doing it, because I really want to go with, now I'm writing a novel that, you know, it's going to happen in Berlin. 143 00:16:20,954.98371525 --> 00:16:23,874.98371525 And I did a lot of time, you know, not just. 144 00:16:24,384.98371525 --> 00:16:26,994.98371525 Real time, but I need inner time for that. 145 00:16:27,644.98371525 --> 00:16:36,304.98321525 And I thought I had actually a couple of patients that they ask, Oh, you know, they were like, Oh, but you know, you like, uh, they were a little bit worried. 146 00:16:36,304.98321525 --> 00:16:42,564.9837152 They said, well, but what if I need you? What is like, and my answer was, I mean, you don't know me, but you know me, you know how it work. 147 00:16:43,174.9837152 --> 00:16:46,564.9837152 And, uh, if I keep doing this next year, I'm not going to be able to put. 148 00:16:47,939.9837152 --> 00:16:49,539.9837152 And I don't want to do it a hundred percent. 149 00:16:49,539.9837152 --> 00:16:51,659.9837152 I said, Oh, just, yeah, say no more. 150 00:16:51,669.9837152 --> 00:16:53,19.9837152 I mean, I, I totally get that. 151 00:16:53,19.9837152 --> 00:16:54,789.8837152 I know the way you are, the way you work. 152 00:16:54,789.9837152 --> 00:16:56,339.9837152 I feel you put a hundred percent. 153 00:16:56,949.9837152 --> 00:17:10,419.9837152 So it's, uh, so it was so clear because I was, although I was so honest, you know, I was really honest and it's like, I need to do this and, uh, and I need to make the shift because if not, it's not. 154 00:17:10,420.0837152 --> 00:17:11,455.0334652 Yeah. 155 00:17:11,455.0334652 --> 00:17:12,489.9832152 Yeah. 156 00:17:12,548.9128289 --> 00:17:35,513.9128289 how what was your stance on self disclosure as a therapist during your practice? I suppose I asked because you're you've entered a stage of self disclosure, right? Writing is burying your soul And your writing is very, it's, it's beautiful because it's, one of the reasons it's beautiful is because it shares so intimately about what you experienced and see and, and, and saw. 157 00:17:35,823.9128289 --> 00:17:52,673.9128289 Um, it's, it's, it's a very intimate view, you know, in a way that feels crude and, and that opens one, one up as well, you know, and, and, and encourages one to also reveal, you know, reveal because there's no, there's, there's no alternative to revealing. 158 00:17:53,43.9128289 --> 00:17:56,113.9128289 So what was your, what was your take on that as a? Therapist. 159 00:17:56,113.9128289 --> 00:18:06,244.9837152 And is it much different now that you're bearing it all? Yeah, no, well, thanks for your words, your beautiful words, and I really appreciate it because that that's the intention, really. 160 00:18:06,924.9837152 --> 00:18:19,314.9827152 Uh, I mean, of course, uh, I would share, I would share, uh, things that were related to what the other one was talking about. 161 00:18:19,324.9827152 --> 00:18:28,134.9827152 And when, if I could transform something about my experience or an anecdote or whatever. 162 00:18:28,544.9837152 --> 00:19:03,814.9837152 into knowledge that would help the other one, I would use it, no doubts, even, even really personal stuff, you know, because, uh, because you, um, I mean, this was, I didn't think it rationally when I started doing this, but if I can totally, I'm pretty sure about what I'm going to answer is like, when you are so, I mean, when you put it there, like when you, it's like, you know, And you share something that happened to you that is very private, and, uh, you compel the other one to do something about it. 163 00:19:03,814.9837152 --> 00:19:08,294.9837152 It's like, uh, it's more, it's easier to expect responsibility. 164 00:19:08,934.9837152 --> 00:19:14,374.9837152 And, uh, and the, and the, and the one that is listening takes it that way. 165 00:19:14,554.9827152 --> 00:19:23,264.9837152 Like, for example, um, I was planning this trip for, uh, you know, around, uh, east, um, Southeast Asia. 166 00:19:23,594.9837152 --> 00:19:30,354.9837152 I thought it was gonna be a trip, and then I started adding so much stuff, you know, it's like, oh, but I would love to finish the poem. 167 00:19:30,354.9837152 --> 00:19:31,164.9837152 I would love to. 168 00:19:31,164.9837152 --> 00:19:39,714.9837152 It's like, this is, and it was gonna be a month and a half, which is a lot for the, for a holiday, you know, but it's like, it was not gonna be enough for everything I wanted. 169 00:19:40,184.9837152 --> 00:19:43,264.9837152 So I realized, okay, no, uh, it's, it's not gonna be. 170 00:19:44,114.9837152 --> 00:19:44,654.9837152 State trip. 171 00:19:44,684.9837152 --> 00:19:49,914.9837152 It's gonna be, uh, a sort of trip just to find a place to stay and live. 172 00:19:49,944.9837152 --> 00:19:52,764.9837152 You know, that, that's gonna be the, the experience actually. 173 00:19:53,414.9837152 --> 00:19:54,854.9837152 So I did that. 174 00:19:55,574.9837152 --> 00:20:00,554.9837152 I, I, you know, so well that, that, that trip was amazing. 175 00:20:00,554.9837152 --> 00:20:01,334.9837152 Ended up choosing b. 176 00:20:02,449.9837152 --> 00:20:06,619.9837152 So, uh, I went back to Buenos Aires to organize stuff and talk to my patients. 177 00:20:06,619.9837152 --> 00:20:08,659.9837152 And it's like, okay, paint my house rented. 178 00:20:08,669.9837152 --> 00:20:11,19.9837152 You know, it's like, okay, put everything in order to leave. 179 00:20:11,609.9837152 --> 00:20:23,759.9837152 And, uh, I wrote, um, this email to my patients saying, uh, well, you know, something general, you know, and then it's like, uh, I need to share this with you. 180 00:20:23,899.9837152 --> 00:20:26,849.9837152 I have this, this very strong desire. 181 00:20:28,754.9837152 --> 00:20:30,154.9837152 I really want to live in Asia. 182 00:20:30,194.9837152 --> 00:20:39,684.9837152 It's something I, I always wanted to and I'm now I'm realizing it's like I have to do it because now it's pretty common but in in 2017 it was not coming. 183 00:20:39,704.9837152 --> 00:20:41,964.9837152 It was like, what? Working? It's like you're working online. 184 00:20:41,964.9837152 --> 00:20:49,864.9837152 It was like weird, you know So I told them, uh, I I really want to do this, you know, i'm dreaming about this. 185 00:20:49,904.9837152 --> 00:21:01,989.9837152 I really want to do it So if you want to keep working with me, we need to figure it out how it's going to be some sort of you know video call or something and uh, if you're not comfortable with uh, You know, with a format. 186 00:21:01,989.9837152 --> 00:21:03,49.9837152 Well, we'll talk about it. 187 00:21:03,49.9837152 --> 00:21:26,449.9837152 I will help you find another therapist, you know, just, but I, I needed to give you a heads up on this, you know, and, uh, some of the, the answers were on the line of, wow, you know, like, uh, uh, you know, oh, you know, well, this is a big news and it's like, well, you're working with me, uh, one of the things you're working with me is. 188 00:21:26,859.9837152 --> 00:21:35,269.9837152 For me to acknowledge my desire or for me to do, you know, like be responsible with what I really want to do and you're doing it. 189 00:21:35,269.9837152 --> 00:21:45,49.9827152 So although I'm worried about the format or I'm worried about, you know, missing you or whatever, it's like, uh, you're sort of, you know, being the example on this. 190 00:21:45,129.9837152 --> 00:21:49,999.9827152 And, uh, so I had, uh, many answers like that. 191 00:21:50,89.9827152 --> 00:21:56,314.9837152 And, uh, That was also so touching, you know, like very moving and it's like, Oh yeah, of course I will follow you wherever. 192 00:21:56,544.9837152 --> 00:21:57,494.9837152 So it was beautiful. 193 00:21:57,524.9837152 --> 00:22:09,74.9837152 So it was very nice because I could keep working until I think it was one, no, it was one patient that said, well, you know, I'm not, not that comfortable with what that everybody started doing. 194 00:22:09,74.9837152 --> 00:22:14,964.9837152 That is like, okay, hi, I'm here again because, you know, I didn't want to, but yep, but just one. 195 00:22:15,44.9837152 --> 00:22:18,623.9128289 And, uh, that it was, of course I understood, Yeah. 196 00:22:19,24.9837152 --> 00:22:21,514.9837152 Probably that's a good example about what I was saying before. 197 00:22:21,514.9837152 --> 00:22:31,574.9837152 It's like, uh, when you are, okay, yeah, I want to do this, you know, uh, I really want to do this and I'm asking you, uh, just go for it. 198 00:22:31,574.9837152 --> 00:22:33,34.9837152 I mean, you really want to do that. 199 00:22:33,534.9837152 --> 00:22:34,274.9837152 Go for it. 200 00:22:34,924.9837152 --> 00:22:40,714.9837152 Uh, because I'm a hundred percent sure that this is for everyone. 201 00:22:41,564.9837152 --> 00:22:46,714.9837152 I mean, you perceive when the other one is telling you The truth or not. 202 00:22:47,804.9837152 --> 00:22:49,244.9837152 And this is not even about the truth. 203 00:22:49,664.9837152 --> 00:23:11,694.9837152 You can totally perceive, although maybe can, maybe it's not in the conscious level, but when someone's, when your therapist is, is, uh, telling you that you have to confront a situation, There's going to be a pattern in your body, or in your brain, or in the stomach, or wherever you're, whatever you want to, you know, but somewhere. 204 00:23:13,724.9837152 --> 00:23:16,144.9837152 For many people it's the stomach, you know, like sort of feeling. 205 00:23:17,574.9827152 --> 00:23:27,404.9837152 You're going to, or it cannot even be, you cannot even be aware, but you'll know if the other one is, can confront or not. 206 00:23:27,989.9837152 --> 00:23:31,929.9837152 Because, I mean, of course, we therapists, I mean, well, you know that. 207 00:23:31,979.9837152 --> 00:23:35,389.9837152 I mean, we can, we all have issues, we all have things we have to solve. 208 00:23:35,639.9837152 --> 00:23:39,209.9837152 We all have, of course, we all have our darkness and, of course. 209 00:23:40,89.9837152 --> 00:23:47,409.9837152 But one thing is having things to work, you know, with, uh, or things that you need to work in or to be better or whatever. 210 00:23:48,159.9827152 --> 00:23:59,104.9837152 But another one is not, not being, uh, Not being responsible with this or I would actually this is a challenge for you. 211 00:23:59,154.9837152 --> 00:24:03,583.9128289 How would you translate? Okay, that's a beautiful phrase. 212 00:24:03,893.9128289 --> 00:24:05,413.9128289 Uh, playing stupid. 213 00:24:07,524.9837152 --> 00:24:09,584.9837152 know when you're so one thing is okay. 214 00:24:09,584.9837152 --> 00:24:14,424.9837152 Yeah, of course I need to work On this and this and that, but I'm not playing stupid. 215 00:24:14,494.9837152 --> 00:24:16,544.9837152 You know, I will never play that. 216 00:24:16,904.9837152 --> 00:24:17,864.9837152 I will never play stupid. 217 00:24:17,884.9837152 --> 00:24:21,144.9837152 And the people know it's the same on the other. 218 00:24:21,484.9837152 --> 00:24:24,194.9837152 Oh, I, I saw your speech at the university. 219 00:24:24,204.9837152 --> 00:24:25,554.9837152 That was, I loved it. 220 00:24:26,104.9837152 --> 00:24:29,304.9837152 And, uh, and I can tell that you really believe those words. 221 00:24:29,844.9827152 --> 00:24:30,774.9837152 I can tell that. 222 00:24:30,854.9827152 --> 00:24:38,704.9837152 I mean, if you're just saying, if you're saying that and the other one, I mean, doesn't the worst, they don't arrive to the same place. 223 00:24:39,594.9837152 --> 00:24:40,84.9837152 They don't. 224 00:24:40,603.9128289 --> 00:24:42,34.8837152 I It's like, what, when you. 225 00:24:42,574.9837152 --> 00:24:47,4.9837152 You know, uh, so and, and we can, I don't know, I can give you so many examples. 226 00:24:47,214.9837152 --> 00:24:58,574.9837152 If you believe in someone, if you truly believe, uh, the person will have an extra, yeah, sort of extra energy that's going to come from your, your belief in them. 227 00:24:59,554.9837152 --> 00:25:01,914.9827152 And it's, it's going to be more powerful. 228 00:25:02,304.9837152 --> 00:25:03,424.9837152 And that's no bullshit. 229 00:25:03,434.9837152 --> 00:25:06,904.9837152 I mean, that's, I know a hundred percent for sure that really works. 230 00:25:07,284.9837152 --> 00:25:07,894.9837152 That really works. 231 00:25:07,944.9837152 --> 00:25:12,434.9837152 It works, of course, with a parent and a child, and it works with a therapist and a patient. 232 00:25:13,74.9837152 --> 00:25:21,714.9837152 You know, like when you, when you truly believe in, in what you are suggesting the other one you do, whatever to confront, to do, to just go for it. 233 00:25:22,104.9837152 --> 00:25:32,264.9837152 But when you are trusting the other one can make that leap of, I don't know, it can be a leap of faith, or it can be a just, or it can be, I don't know, whatever, whatever turn, you know. 234 00:25:32,774.9837152 --> 00:25:34,854.9837152 Uh, but it's about that. 235 00:25:34,854.9837152 --> 00:25:53,434.9837153 So, when you are, Honest about something you're sharing and the purpose is to give the other one some, uh, I don't know, a little bit more strength or a little bit more whatever belief or it's so powerful. 236 00:25:53,454.9827153 --> 00:26:15,529.9837153 So I think it can be very useful because it's not the same if I tell you my own story that if I tell, oh, you know, of course you can also use, you know, oh, you know, I had a patient once, Or you know, I know someone, of course, but if I'm looking you into the eyes and I tell you, you know, uh In I don't know in that situation. 237 00:26:15,559.9837153 --> 00:26:16,669.9827153 I was scared. 238 00:26:17,49.9837153 --> 00:26:21,609.9837153 I was scared because it's it's way more powerful It's way more powerful. 239 00:26:22,79.9827153 --> 00:26:35,799.9837153 And if I say, you know, and uh, I don't know whatever the situation but when you're yeah, like uh, um Suggesting even suggesting, you know, because people are Many times it's interpretation. 240 00:26:35,799.9837153 --> 00:26:37,459.9837153 Many times it's just connecting dots. 241 00:26:37,459.9837153 --> 00:26:47,379.9827153 Many times, but many times you can also suggest, you know, when the, when the suggestion comes from, comes from a place that is, uh, that is, uh, authentic. 242 00:26:48,59.9827153 --> 00:26:55,183.9128289 It, it is stronger, you know, of, lots of truth, lots of truth in what you're sharing. 243 00:26:55,463.9128289 --> 00:27:04,773.9128289 Uh, it's also true that reading your work is a therapeutic experience insofar as it speaks to parts of one that one then feels as well. 244 00:27:04,993.9128289 --> 00:27:07,703.8128289 You speak a lot about darkness and depth within, within the work. 245 00:27:07,883.9128289 --> 00:27:08,603.9128289 Within one. 246 00:27:08,903.9128289 --> 00:27:24,193.9128289 Uh, and, and, and, and the mere naming of it on your behalf activates it in a way also in one, you know, or, or visceral experiences in the body, in, in the making of love or in in fear, in in childhood experiences that the wake things up in one as well. 247 00:27:24,223.9128289 --> 00:27:24,433.9128289 Right. 248 00:27:24,433.9128289 --> 00:27:30,849.9827153 I think that's partly what, what you're suggesting, that when one names something, it res, it resonates in another, absolutely. 249 00:27:31,79.9827153 --> 00:27:31,399.9827153 Yeah. 250 00:27:31,399.9827153 --> 00:27:32,449.9827153 Oh, that's a, that's a great word. 251 00:27:32,449.9827153 --> 00:27:32,679.9827153 Yeah. 252 00:27:32,749.9827153 --> 00:27:33,959.9827153 Uh, yeah, absolutely. 253 00:27:34,9.9827153 --> 00:27:35,209.9827153 Yeah, absolutely. 254 00:27:35,998.9128289 --> 00:27:38,768.9128289 So, uh, a lot of places we could go with this. 255 00:27:38,768.9128289 --> 00:27:41,78.9128289 You mentioned bridges and doors. 256 00:27:41,288.9128289 --> 00:27:43,228.9128289 There's so many doors I'd like to open. 257 00:27:43,568.9128289 --> 00:27:55,404.9837153 One place I wouldn't want to leave without talking about with you is El Gorda, which is A psychiatric hospital here in Buenos Aires, uh, The biggest one in Buenos Aires, yeah. 258 00:27:55,603.9128289 --> 00:27:56,43.9128289 biggest one. 259 00:27:56,53.9128289 --> 00:27:57,773.9128289 I'd love for you to tell me about it. 260 00:27:57,803.9128289 --> 00:28:01,103.9118289 I I've been hearing about El Borda since I was a child. 261 00:28:01,123.9128289 --> 00:28:07,413.9118289 My mom once also did, uh, some sort of internship or experience there as a musical therapist. 262 00:28:07,573.9118289 --> 00:28:12,733.9128289 And I know that a lot of, a lot of different professionals, especially mental health professionals have. 263 00:28:13,33.9128289 --> 00:28:26,873.9128289 have gone through El Borda, and it's a, it's an institute that almost extends its physical reach beyond its walls because it's so, it's just so spoken about in certain, in a certain segment of society. 264 00:28:26,893.9128289 --> 00:28:37,993.9128289 How did you end up there? What was your impression of it? And what do you understand by El Borda? Which you then took your experience from that to write your essay on madness, a really troubling, beautiful essay. 265 00:28:39,824.9837153 --> 00:28:52,504.9837153 Um, well, I had this, uh, encounter with, uh, you know, with Madness being a child, like I tell in the essay with, with this uncle, uh, that was, I, I had a beautiful relationship with him. 266 00:28:52,514.9837153 --> 00:28:52,844.9837153 Mm hmm. 267 00:28:53,144.9837153 --> 00:28:55,454.9837153 For me, it was like, uh, I wasn't afraid. 268 00:28:55,494.9837153 --> 00:28:57,324.9837153 It was great thing that I wasn't afraid. 269 00:28:57,324.9837153 --> 00:28:58,564.9837153 I write the opposite. 270 00:28:58,564.9837153 --> 00:28:59,844.9837153 It's like, it wasn't his own words. 271 00:28:59,844.9837153 --> 00:29:00,754.9837153 I could be my own. 272 00:29:00,754.9837153 --> 00:29:26,859.9837153 So, uh, so, um, the, the interested, uh, the, yeah, the interest in, uh, in madness came, you know, being like really a child and I, I actually, I've been to, uh, The, uh, Borda when I was very little, but I couldn't get inside because, uh, there you, you have to be older to get in, not in other places, but there you have to be like, yeah, you have to be older. 273 00:29:28,9.9827153 --> 00:29:35,884.9837153 So, you know, Madness was always You know, I was like fascinated in, uh, in the whole career because it was, I was so curious about that. 274 00:29:36,354.9837153 --> 00:29:39,754.9837153 And for me, it was like obvious, Oh, everybody's going to be interested about this. 275 00:29:39,764.9827153 --> 00:30:07,939.9827153 And I couldn't be, you know, for that, that's really further from the truth because many people say I would never work on that field, you know? So, um, during the, the, the career, there was this, yeah, it was a sort of, uh, Practice that you could choose and like Borda is the palace of madness in Buenos that's a It's, it is the palace of madness. 276 00:30:07,949.9837153 --> 00:30:15,869.9837153 So of course I chose a place and because you know, uh, not everybody was You know, wishing to go there. 277 00:30:16,889.9837153 --> 00:30:19,699.9837153 So I, I, you know, I got really easy. 278 00:30:20,299.9837153 --> 00:30:23,149.9837153 Uh, so I started like, yeah, doing this practice. 279 00:30:23,149.9837153 --> 00:30:26,109.9837153 And then in the second, the second time I chose it again. 280 00:30:26,119.9837153 --> 00:30:28,149.9837153 And then the third time is like, no, you chose it already twice. 281 00:30:28,159.9837153 --> 00:30:28,859.9827153 So you need to change. 282 00:30:28,859.9837153 --> 00:30:29,939.9837153 It's like, oh, okay. 283 00:30:29,939.9837153 --> 00:30:32,989.9837153 So I went to another one, but I wanted to keep going there. 284 00:30:33,529.9837153 --> 00:30:38,299.9837153 And, uh, and, uh, from day one, I thought it was fascinating. 285 00:30:38,299.9837153 --> 00:30:48,224.9837153 The first, first of all, because have you been there? No, No, because, uh, because of, uh, the year was built, it's like a sort of a mini city. 286 00:30:48,254.9837153 --> 00:30:50,414.9837153 You know, you have like, uh, everything there. 287 00:30:50,414.9837153 --> 00:31:02,524.9837153 You have a, well, you actually, this, I'm not sure if it's still like open or I don't know if it's uh, if it's working now, but even a jail, there's a jail inside the hospital. 288 00:31:02,524.9837153 --> 00:31:04,24.9837153 So there's a jail, there's a. 289 00:31:04,409.9837153 --> 00:31:09,789.9837153 You know, medical service like beyond, you know, madness and everything related psychology and psychiatrists. 290 00:31:10,309.9837153 --> 00:31:30,649.9837153 You have a, I don't know, a bar, you have a, you know, a bakery, you have a, there's some, and you have this huge garden, you have streets, you have, it's like, because it's like a tiny city, And what do you, what do you attribute that to? Why, why was a city built there? because, uh, to protect, uh, society from. 291 00:31:30,720.0837153 --> 00:31:42,679.9837153 Uh, and, uh, and it's, it's incredible because, um, of course, when I started, so when I finished university, I thought, okay, I really want to go there. 292 00:31:42,679.9837153 --> 00:31:46,699.9837153 And I started working, you know, for free because it's, there was no other way. 293 00:31:47,369.9837153 --> 00:32:04,224.9837153 Uh, and, um, Instead of going to the, because nowadays there are some, some of the, I mean, some of the areas that there are, you know, lots of professionals and they are very effective, you know, with the work they do and they're great professionals and everything. 294 00:32:05,24.9837153 --> 00:32:08,894.9837153 But I really wanted to go into the, the heart of the thing. 295 00:32:08,904.9827153 --> 00:32:15,494.9837153 So I started in a, In a, in a place that was like with patients that they've been there for, for decades. 296 00:32:16,794.9837153 --> 00:32:27,134.9837153 Because, you know, the psychiatric, you know, uh, psychiatric patients, they, they, they, they have a really long history of torture, basically. 297 00:32:27,174.9837153 --> 00:32:38,273.9118289 You know, because they, they didn't understand what was going on and they were just, you know, trying stuff like They were sub, infrahumans, and we didn't understand either, what was going on. 298 00:32:38,543.9118289 --> 00:32:40,3.9128289 No one understood what was going on. 299 00:32:40,979.9837153 --> 00:32:41,659.9837153 Exactly. 300 00:32:41,979.9837153 --> 00:32:47,409.9837153 And, uh, even nowadays, to be, to be honest, you know, but, but a couple of decades ago, it was even worse. 301 00:32:47,439.9837153 --> 00:32:50,709.9837153 And, uh, so, uh, it was crazy. 302 00:32:50,719.9837153 --> 00:32:53,619.9827153 Even the, the, the, the electroshock. 303 00:32:54,149.9837153 --> 00:32:56,439.9837153 You know, like, uh, that, okay. 304 00:32:56,439.9837153 --> 00:32:56,669.9837153 Yeah. 305 00:32:56,669.9837153 --> 00:33:03,799.9827153 You can say, well, there are a couple of diagnosis that even nowadays people will say, okay, yeah, it's valid for this. 306 00:33:03,799.9837153 --> 00:33:05,589.9837153 I mean, if you're risking death of, yeah. 307 00:33:05,589.9837153 --> 00:33:05,969.9837153 Okay. 308 00:33:06,819.9837153 --> 00:33:11,969.9837153 Let's better do this, you know, but the truth is that nobody knows what's called, I mean, what they're doing. 309 00:33:11,999.9827153 --> 00:33:15,349.9837153 They just, you know, discharging electricity in your brain. 310 00:33:15,929.9837153 --> 00:33:21,889.9837153 And, uh, of course, decades ago, they used to, uh, punish patients with this. 311 00:33:22,269.9837153 --> 00:33:23,289.9827153 So if you were a little bit. 312 00:33:23,914.9837153 --> 00:33:53,804.9837153 Rebel, if you were a little bit, I would say if you were a little bit alive in the mental hospital, you would be punished because you were supposed to be sedated and just don't bother anyone, you know, and uh, it was really, truly horrible to see, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, The, the, the histories, uh, Oh, I don't know the, I don't know this word in English, like the, you know, the, the records, the, the patient records, las historias clínicas, patient records. 313 00:33:54,274.9837153 --> 00:34:03,514.9837153 So at the clinical records, so you would, I would be tired of just passing through another electroshock, another electroshock. 314 00:34:03,633.9128289 --> 00:34:04,63.9128289 Uh huh. 315 00:34:04,894.9837153 --> 00:34:05,384.9837153 Oh my God. 316 00:34:05,424.9837153 --> 00:34:07,484.9837153 Like, uh, it was horrifying. 317 00:34:07,524.9837153 --> 00:34:10,314.9837153 Like, uh, and, uh, I remember. 318 00:34:10,794.9837153 --> 00:34:17,984.9837153 One of these patients that he survived, you know, he survived his family, you know, friends, of course, he didn't have any visit. 319 00:34:18,454.9837153 --> 00:34:23,294.9837153 Because he's been there for like, I don't know, had been there for like 30 something years. 320 00:34:23,954.9837153 --> 00:34:56,929.9837153 And, uh, and he would remember it's like, yeah, I have a, it's a little bit blurry, but I do remember the days of the electroshocks and, and they were so horrible, you know, and basically very slowly they, they, I don't know, they just fry a little bit of his brain, you know, and, uh, so, uh, one of the things that for me is fascinating is, In general, whatever people, humans don't understand, they are afraid of. 321 00:34:57,874.9837153 --> 00:35:06,394.9837153 It can be, you know, someone talking, you know, to the sky, or it can be a person with a different dress and different color of the skin. 322 00:35:06,684.9837153 --> 00:35:23,314.9837153 Whatever you don't understand, it's like, okay, just in case, you know, and it's both horrible, Uh, and also so interesting, because it's like, what's going on for you two? It's like, uh, and what's different is so interesting for me. 323 00:35:23,814.9837153 --> 00:35:25,744.9827153 I behave the exact opposite. 324 00:35:25,744.9837153 --> 00:35:27,144.9827153 It's like, this is so interesting. 325 00:35:27,334.9837153 --> 00:35:28,324.9837153 I want to know more. 326 00:35:28,544.9837153 --> 00:35:29,374.9837153 Probably you are the same. 327 00:35:30,74.9827153 --> 00:35:33,504.9827153 And, uh, so I was, uh, I don't know. 328 00:35:33,504.9837153 --> 00:36:05,204.9837153 And it was so nice to be able to, to be there and to, You know, to try to really listen and, uh, and after a couple of years, I thought, okay, well, like, I think I've done everything I, I could do here for these people, but I, I want to, I want to remain here, but I want to do something that is a little bit more, I don't know, that, that you have more chances to, to work with, you know, because, uh, so, uh, I had the, the, the feeling that, okay, like, uh, it was two, three years I've been at this. 329 00:36:05,759.9837153 --> 00:36:06,819.9837153 Specific of the hospital. 330 00:36:06,819.9837153 --> 00:36:28,39.9837153 So I would see the patients I could go and visit, you know, so I did it very slowly, uh, and I've heard about this, uh, this group, you know, like the, the, it was, uh, this group of, uh, art workshops and, uh, what art is a language on its own, you know? So I thought, okay, this is very interesting. 331 00:36:28,639.9837153 --> 00:36:36,389.9837153 And, uh, so yeah, I just approached the place and very soon I was, uh, I studied in theater in the. 332 00:36:37,34.9837153 --> 00:36:49,744.9837153 And then I, I, I was in charge of the, of a magazine, which was so interesting because, for example, the, that magazine was, there were a couple of psychologists that were in charge of the, of the magazine. 333 00:36:49,744.9837153 --> 00:36:51,874.9837153 That was the only. 334 00:36:53,419.9837153 --> 00:37:07,969.9837153 the only uh, yeah, the, it was like actually, um, like the channel for patients to be related to the outside world, you know, and there were a couple of psychologists doing it. 335 00:37:08,339.9837153 --> 00:37:18,239.9837153 So I remember at one of the meetings where we were all, you know, psychologists and patients and, And one person said, you know, I really think that the magazine should be done by us, you know, written by us. 336 00:37:18,489.9837153 --> 00:37:19,999.9837153 And I said, I totally agree. 337 00:37:20,29.9837153 --> 00:37:22,289.9837153 Like, it's like, it's actually ridiculous. 338 00:37:22,289.9837153 --> 00:37:24,389.9837153 It's not happening, you know, until now. 339 00:37:24,979.9837153 --> 00:37:30,599.9827153 So it's like, well, we need to find, because I mean, there's never money available for this, of course. 340 00:37:30,599.9827153 --> 00:37:33,579.9837153 So we need to find someone that can Run a magazine again. 341 00:37:33,859.9837153 --> 00:37:35,39.9837153 Of course, we didn't find anyone. 342 00:37:35,89.9837153 --> 00:37:39,309.9837153 So I thought, okay, I can start, I mean, I can start the group. 343 00:37:39,409.9837153 --> 00:37:54,719.9827153 Uh, we can start thinking about what we want to do, what we want to say, what we want to, uh, the, the name, you know, and, uh, everything would just, and then, well, I will hand up, you know, I will, uh, with everything more, you know, uh, ready, you know, we can. 344 00:37:55,289.9837153 --> 00:37:56,619.9837153 But of course, no one appears. 345 00:37:56,619.9837153 --> 00:38:00,849.9837153 So afterwards, okay, I'm going to do a magazine even though I cannot keep waiting. 346 00:38:01,449.9837153 --> 00:38:04,709.9837153 So, uh, the name, uh, I love the name. 347 00:38:05,169.9837153 --> 00:38:10,439.9827153 Everything came from the patient's, you know, so the name of the magazine, uh, was Mura shock. 348 00:38:11,519.9837153 --> 00:38:26,779.9837153 So, uh, so, you know, the, The, the, the wall and the shock that from the electro shocks, but from the, the, the surprise, you know, like, uh, so yeah, the, the, the name was, was perfect. 349 00:38:27,69.9837153 --> 00:38:34,809.9837153 So we published a couple of magazines and, uh, and well, so just going there, I started to meet, you know, the. 350 00:38:35,359.9837153 --> 00:38:41,599.9837153 The pa there, there were patients that they were living in the hospital and patients that they were, you know, just going to a, a consult. 351 00:38:41,599.9837153 --> 00:38:52,699.9837153 You know, that they were, but the problem with, with that kind of hospital is that of course nowadays they're, they are disappearing because you shouldn't, I mean, no one should be in a iatric hospital. 352 00:38:53,59.9837153 --> 00:38:54,19.9837153 Yeah, exactly. 353 00:38:54,79.9837153 --> 00:38:54,499.9837153 Exactly. 354 00:38:54,499.9837153 --> 00:39:01,959.9837153 So you have patients that, they've been there, they, they've been so mistreated that that's why they're still there, like this guy. 355 00:39:02,769.9837153 --> 00:39:07,259.9837153 You know, that had, you know, there's so many lecture shows. 356 00:39:07,849.9837153 --> 00:39:14,633.9128289 And, uh, Well the point of those places wasn't necessarily to heal people, it was to isolate them, right? To silo them. 357 00:39:15,554.9837153 --> 00:39:16,204.9837153 Absolutely. 358 00:39:16,204.9837153 --> 00:39:18,404.9837153 It's like, it just shut up, you know, just stay here. 359 00:39:18,934.9837153 --> 00:39:25,184.9827153 Now we have a different problem in Argentina and it's like, uh, there are many patients that they go there for the emergency. 360 00:39:25,184.9837153 --> 00:39:29,184.9837153 They are fine to go back, but then they don't, they don't have a place to live. 361 00:39:29,794.9837153 --> 00:39:32,854.9837153 So they remain longer because of a social issue. 362 00:39:32,854.9837153 --> 00:39:35,894.9837153 So it's, it's, it's very complex. 363 00:39:37,574.9837153 --> 00:40:24,784.9837153 But besides that, uh, there are so many things in the hospital because, uh, and, but of course there are different approaches because if you're in the, I don't know, there are some approaches that, uh, they are part of the, the interpretation and, uh, they, they, they never stop being a patient, you know, it's very interesting what, when you can, you know, Workshop can be a workshop for people, you know, it doesn't matter if you live in a hospital or, or not, you know, like, uh, and, uh, one of the main active, one of the main ideological, uh, you know, um, uh, central points of this organization was, You know, so if we had a play, we would play it outside the hospital. 364 00:40:25,84.9837153 --> 00:40:26,904.9837153 So we have, that's where the magazine was important. 365 00:40:26,904.9837153 --> 00:40:54,499.9837153 So if we have, okay, uh, if there's a, you know, we play music, but outside that, so we have to go out because we need to fight this idea that you need to be committed, you know, and, uh, and to also to, uh, Uh, for people that are outside the hospital and they've never been and they don't have any clue, so they could meet people that they are in a psychiatric hospital and just, oh, it's just, just another people. 366 00:40:54,499.9837153 --> 00:40:55,419.9837153 I mean, just someone else. 367 00:40:55,423.9128289 --> 00:41:05,233.9128289 one of the themes, one of the themes in your work is that that that encounter between madness and sanity, if you will, which is a completely fabricated distinction. 368 00:41:05,903.9128289 --> 00:41:08,743.9128289 There's something that's something important happens there. 369 00:41:09,43.9128289 --> 00:41:12,733.9128289 I wonder what it was like for you working at a psychiatric hospital, but then. 370 00:41:13,418.9128289 --> 00:41:22,498.9128289 Later on, as I understand it, your career did not focus on people with that type of madness, right? With the type of madness that would be institutionalized. 371 00:41:23,419.9837153 --> 00:41:23,729.9837153 Yeah. 372 00:41:23,729.9837153 --> 00:41:24,259.9837153 That's true. 373 00:41:24,299.9837153 --> 00:41:29,59.9837153 Uh, and I, I, I asked myself that question more than once. 374 00:41:29,419.9837153 --> 00:41:29,719.9837153 Okay. 375 00:41:29,739.9837153 --> 00:41:39,529.9837153 One thing is, uh, someone that has, uh, someone that ends up in a psychiatric hospital, usually they, they need a team. 376 00:41:39,589.9837153 --> 00:41:41,379.9837153 At least you need psychology psychiatrist. 377 00:41:42,169.9837153 --> 00:41:44,369.9837153 And, uh, I like working on my own. 378 00:41:44,779.9837153 --> 00:42:06,229.9837153 And, uh, To do that work in a proper way, you need to work with a team, you know, it's, uh, even in the, because I remember being in one of the creepiest places inside the hospital and going back home and thinking, well, that, I mean, it's, they're, I mean, okay, yeah, they're, they're not, uh, enough nurses, not enough doctors. 379 00:42:06,229.9837153 --> 00:42:06,589.9837153 Okay. 380 00:42:06,959.9837153 --> 00:42:11,839.9837153 But there are responsible people here, you know, so you, you could go home. 381 00:42:12,249.9837153 --> 00:42:20,499.9837153 Although we would joke with, with the people from the, from the Fred Thea, we would joke, we could totally make a movie about, you know, the terror. 382 00:42:20,499.9837153 --> 00:42:22,689.9837153 It could be we, we can make a really creepy movie. 383 00:42:22,689.9837153 --> 00:42:22,869.9837153 Yeah. 384 00:42:22,869.9837153 --> 00:42:30,629.9837153 We just, we just need to, you know, touch, play and we can just film like a horror movie here because, uh, it, it was horrible. 385 00:42:30,989.9837153 --> 00:42:34,38.9118289 Uh, I mean the, the, the walls, the, you know, Yeah. 386 00:42:34,288.9128289 --> 00:42:38,868.9128289 But that's one lens, right? You could have also filmed a love story in there or a poem. 387 00:42:41,214.9837153 --> 00:42:41,774.9837153 Absolutely. 388 00:42:41,774.9837153 --> 00:42:44,394.9837153 Because everything happens, you know, everything happens. 389 00:42:45,4.9837153 --> 00:43:07,914.9837153 And uh, well, and, and people that are in a secondary hospital, they need also to be listened as, yeah, like having an issue with my partner, you know, besides partners or whatever, like, because we all do have those, you know? So, uh, but, but yeah, but when someone is in an, in a crisis or an emergency, they need to, I don't know, it's a, it's a different approach and, uh, I want you to. 390 00:43:08,324.9837153 --> 00:43:10,64.9837153 You know, to be able to sleep at night. 391 00:43:10,604.9837153 --> 00:43:21,684.9827153 It's like I knew so, uh, and I, I did not sleep at night always if I was worried about a patient, you know, that was going through something. 392 00:43:22,494.9827153 --> 00:43:29,594.9837153 Um, but usually it's going to be a team or usually it's going to be a center. 393 00:43:30,74.9837153 --> 00:43:32,334.9837153 And I think it's the best way of approaching. 394 00:43:32,344.9837153 --> 00:43:42,349.9837153 That's why I did not do that in the private practice, you know, Because it's like, uh, uh, if you want to work on your own and just, you can refer a patient to a psychiatrist. 395 00:43:42,929.9837153 --> 00:43:48,99.9837153 But, but I think that the best way, the, the, the best way is to, yeah, to work as a, as a team. 396 00:43:48,423.9128289 --> 00:43:56,363.9128289 I think it's a it's a beautiful and rare acknowledgement that the folks we interact with do weigh on us in, in, in, in totally acceptable ways. 397 00:43:56,363.9128289 --> 00:44:01,63.9123289 I mean, the stories we share with each other, don't just sit lightly on our skin, like butterflies. 398 00:44:01,63.9123289 --> 00:44:02,53.9128289 They, they weigh on us. 399 00:44:02,53.9128289 --> 00:44:04,763.9118289 They, they, they, they become impregnated in our skin. 400 00:44:04,883.9128289 --> 00:44:08,683.9128289 Whether it's just a friend telling us about something deep and dark that they went through. 401 00:44:08,933.9128289 --> 00:44:16,863.9128289 And then at night we noticed that we are having a hard time sleeping or eating, or, or that our digestion was a little bit messed up over the last day. 402 00:44:16,863.9128289 --> 00:44:19,638.9128289 You know? That we are, we are susceptible. 403 00:44:19,928.9128289 --> 00:44:23,638.9128289 We are, uh, Oh yeah, porous in that sense. 404 00:44:23,799.9837153 --> 00:44:25,549.9837153 And no, absolutely. 405 00:44:25,589.9837153 --> 00:44:31,819.9837153 And uh, that's one of the big challenges for being a therapist, you know, because like I call it a filter. 406 00:44:31,819.9837153 --> 00:44:39,329.9827153 I mean, you have to, you have to build a filter because if not, you're, you kind of end up crying every day, you know, it can, it can be tough. 407 00:44:39,589.9837153 --> 00:44:40,359.9827153 No, it can be tough. 408 00:44:40,819.9827153 --> 00:44:46,779.9837153 So you, you cannot end up, you know, uh, feeling the other one's pain as you, as your own. 409 00:44:47,589.9837153 --> 00:44:51,809.9837153 So you have to build a sort of filter, but I think you have to feel the other one. 410 00:44:52,484.9837153 --> 00:45:00,574.9837153 If you, if you, if you, uh, and that you see that a lot of people in the psychiatric hospital that they avoid that. 411 00:45:00,574.9837153 --> 00:45:08,684.9837153 It's like they just, they just, they shut down and they, well, yeah, that's the easy way, but it is a horrible way because you're not gonna help the other one the same way. 412 00:45:09,829.9837153 --> 00:45:18,119.9837153 Because, and this, this, uh, specific, uh, theme connects other things we've been talking today. 413 00:45:18,119.9837153 --> 00:45:38,309.9837153 Like, uh, like right before, like, uh, if you don't put a little bit of yourself on the table, it's not the same, you know, and, uh, um, because it's just not the same, uh, And, uh, to connect with, uh, with, uh, specifically with, uh, sharing your own. 414 00:45:38,844.9837153 --> 00:45:39,674.9837153 experiences. 415 00:45:39,714.9837153 --> 00:45:54,424.9837153 For example, it happened a few times that, uh, I, for example, uh, one time there was this patient that she had this, uh, horrible fight with her family, really, really horrible, uh, very violent. 416 00:45:54,464.9837153 --> 00:45:57,104.9837153 And, uh, and there was a lot of screaming. 417 00:45:57,734.9837153 --> 00:46:02,94.9837153 So that day, I lost my own voice when I finished working. 418 00:46:02,164.9837153 --> 00:46:02,974.9837153 I lost my own voice. 419 00:46:03,4.9837153 --> 00:46:07,494.9837153 It was like, like, okay, I need to work a little bit better my filter and blah, blah, blah. 420 00:46:07,974.9837153 --> 00:46:17,24.9837153 But of course, I couldn't share that with her because if you share that kind of stuff, the other one will end up being worried about you. 421 00:46:18,499.9837153 --> 00:46:22,239.9837153 No, no, we are a team that are being worried about you, not the other way around. 422 00:46:22,619.9837153 --> 00:46:36,379.8837153 So when you share something, it can be very private, but it's always going to be about if it's, uh, sort of beautiful for the other one, if it's, if it's, uh, if it fits that status of, okay, this is going to help you. 423 00:46:36,939.9837153 --> 00:46:39,589.9837153 You know, going deeper or understanding. 424 00:46:39,589.9837153 --> 00:46:50,569.9837153 So, uh, yeah, I think the, so yeah, it's, uh, um, it is about that because, yeah, it's about that. 425 00:46:50,878.9128289 --> 00:46:54,338.9128289 It's an intentional or purposeful self disclosure, we could call it. 426 00:46:54,778.9128289 --> 00:46:58,598.9128289 I want to appreciate, appreciate one more thing. 427 00:46:58,878.9128289 --> 00:47:06,648.9118289 Well, we've talked mostly today about your essay on madness, which is called Resistance to Weeping, Thou Shalt Fear. 428 00:47:07,148.9118289 --> 00:47:12,798.9118289 We also have two other texts out in the world right now, and I anticipate many more over the next few years. 429 00:47:13,98.9118289 --> 00:47:14,858.9118289 Walking Cats and Dogs is a Fable. 430 00:47:16,598.9128289 --> 00:47:20,378.9128289 Intended for a different type of audience, but equally entertaining for adults. 431 00:47:20,408.9128289 --> 00:47:25,638.9128289 And The Heart's Sad Joy, which is a poem, a long one. 432 00:47:25,678.9128289 --> 00:47:30,208.9128289 And it's my favorite style of writing when it's a novel in verse. 433 00:47:30,588.9118289 --> 00:47:35,48.9128289 I love when you can read a hundred pages of half lines. 434 00:47:35,78.9118289 --> 00:47:51,933.9128289 It keeps the attention really, really, uh, Uh, one of the things I wanted to appreciate about Resistance to Weaving is that you start and end like two, like two bookends with metaphors or images that help us connect a little bit more with the idea of madness. 435 00:47:51,943.9128289 --> 00:47:53,473.9118289 The first image is silver. 436 00:47:54,318.9128289 --> 00:48:03,348.9128289 You start with this idea of silver as something that needs another element within it in order to be silver. 437 00:48:03,378.9128289 --> 00:48:11,128.9128289 So, uh, what makes possible, this is, these are your words, what, what, what makes possible, or the Spanish word, posibilidad, which is a beautiful one. 438 00:48:11,398.9128289 --> 00:48:16,778.9128289 What makes possible silver jewels is silver together with another metal. 439 00:48:17,188.9128289 --> 00:48:21,268.9128289 But we never name the other medal, even if it's seven or eight or more percent. 440 00:48:21,328.9128289 --> 00:48:24,528.9128289 And the, the, the image at the end of the book is one of the appendix. 441 00:48:24,988.9128289 --> 00:48:26,768.9128289 Um, I loved that one. 442 00:48:26,778.9128289 --> 00:48:31,578.9128289 Could you, and it's so, it's a bizarre way to end the book because it's not clear what you mean. 443 00:48:34,959.9827153 --> 00:48:35,989.9827153 That was the intention. 444 00:48:35,989.9827153 --> 00:48:36,269.9827153 Yeah. 445 00:48:36,309.9827153 --> 00:48:37,969.9827153 Because we don't understand really. 446 00:48:39,758.9118289 --> 00:48:40,118.9118289 Totally. 447 00:48:41,3.9128289 --> 00:48:42,443.9128289 And then reminding us that you, yeah. 448 00:48:42,443.9128289 --> 00:48:45,533.9128289 Sometimes when we don't understand it, we just, you know, slice it off the body. 449 00:48:46,869.9827153 --> 00:48:48,269.9827153 And yeah, exactly. 450 00:48:48,270.0827153 --> 00:48:48,424.8837153 Exactly. 451 00:48:48,804.9837153 --> 00:48:49,414.9837153 Exactly. 452 00:48:49,834.9837153 --> 00:49:00,544.9837153 And the people in the psychiatrist hospital, they, they, they intended to do that with them, you know, or be just silver, you know, or the other, the other part of that you, you, it's like, I don't know what's going on. 453 00:49:00,554.9837153 --> 00:49:09,844.9827153 You're not ready to incorporate, you know, what do you understand? You're not, this is such a big issue because it's about madness, but it's also about, you know, immigration. 454 00:49:09,844.9827153 --> 00:49:16,589.8837153 It's about a lot of stuff like, uh, what's different, you know, what you, and there are so many people that they believe they need. 455 00:49:17,429.9837153 --> 00:49:19,959.9837153 They can just keep what's different on the other side. 456 00:49:20,449.9837153 --> 00:49:25,399.9837153 And that's just impossible because you, on your own, you're not just one thing. 457 00:49:25,400.0837153 --> 00:49:29,939.9837153 It's like, because it would be ridiculous, you know, boring and it would be, I don't know. 458 00:49:30,319.9827153 --> 00:49:53,704.9837153 But it's like, uh, it's, it's, it's, I mean, uh, health is about, you know, the things that they mix and the, when you can dance with a different situation and, uh, individuals or, you know, You can take this, uh, I think it's, it's about, uh, uh, the, the, the most basic cell until, you know, you can take it up to society. 459 00:49:53,734.9837153 --> 00:49:56,974.9837153 I mean, like, uh, it's not about, I mean, it's not about one thing. 460 00:49:57,44.9827153 --> 00:49:59,114.9837153 It's not about one thing that is more clear. 461 00:49:59,114.9837153 --> 00:50:02,84.9827153 And it's like, yeah, but it's like, life is messy. 462 00:50:02,444.9837153 --> 00:50:05,414.9837153 You know, it has to be, it has to be. 463 00:50:07,363.9128289 --> 00:50:09,283.9128289 you dance with difference. 464 00:50:09,313.9128289 --> 00:50:22,193.9128289 Also, when you were being assaulted, you know, on the street one day, you, you confronted this person with, uh, with connection, with connecting with whatever it was That was infuriating them. 465 00:50:23,94.9837153 --> 00:50:24,4.9837153 That was so crazy. 466 00:50:24,73.9128289 --> 00:50:54,574.9837153 Could you tell, could you tell that in that anecdote? Uh, of course it's told in a much more, much more beautiful way in the book, but just for for the sake of no, yeah, yeah, of course, of course, uh, I was coming back, uh, from, uh, I, I actually, it actually can be a little bit, uh, different, uh, how I can, uh, add details or leave out some others because the, well, you know, like the stories are so, uh, Like very short, you know, to make a, to make a point. 467 00:50:54,574.9837153 --> 00:50:54,714.9837153 Yeah. 468 00:50:54,715.0837153 --> 00:50:55,324.8837153 Yeah. 469 00:50:55,904.9837153 --> 00:50:58,984.9837153 Uh, that day I was coming back very late, later than usual. 470 00:50:59,44.9837153 --> 00:51:09,754.9827153 And, uh, that day, I don't remember if this is in the book, that day I've seen my grandmother that was, that was in hospital and after that I've been working in the Borda hospital. 471 00:51:09,764.9837153 --> 00:51:14,194.9837153 So it was like a day of, you know, suffering and yeah, complicated day. 472 00:51:14,724.9837153 --> 00:51:21,319.9837153 And, uh, It was around midnight and, uh, it was just five blocks from the train station to my house. 473 00:51:21,969.9837153 --> 00:51:25,879.9837153 I was living with my parents back then, uh, studying, uh, psychology. 474 00:51:26,319.9827153 --> 00:51:31,829.9827153 And, uh, um, or just finished, or, no, just finished, yeah. 475 00:51:32,349.9827153 --> 00:51:34,189.9837153 And, uh, I was in my own world. 476 00:51:34,199.9827153 --> 00:51:38,769.9837153 Usually there are some places that you pay attention, especially being a woman back then. 477 00:51:38,959.9837153 --> 00:51:48,49.9837153 You would be like, you know, Like, just with a glance you would know where, you know, uh, who's on the street and everything, but I wasn't doing that, uh, at all. 478 00:51:48,79.9837153 --> 00:51:53,553.9128289 I was just in my own world, you know, like really focus on worriness and that day. 479 00:51:53,553.9128289 --> 00:51:53,983.9128289 Yeah. 480 00:51:54,59.9837153 --> 00:51:57,479.8837153 yeah, I was just trying to digest that and do, do, do. 481 00:51:57,759.9837153 --> 00:52:02,599.9837153 So I didn't even realize that there was this guy very close walking, uh, behind me. 482 00:52:03,374.9837153 --> 00:52:12,494.9827153 So, uh, so everything was in a second, everything changed because I, I felt an arm like, uh, like this in my, my neck. 483 00:52:12,624.9837153 --> 00:52:15,404.9837153 So it was like, suddenly I had this arm surrounding my neck. 484 00:52:15,404.9837153 --> 00:52:19,64.9837153 It was like, and I felt something pointy on my, my waist. 485 00:52:19,959.9837153 --> 00:52:30,449.9837153 And this voice that was, uh, uh, I think I will never forget the voice, like, uh, you know, just do whatever I say and, uh, I'm not going to hurt you. 486 00:52:31,209.9837153 --> 00:52:35,679.9837153 And, uh, I was so, so in shock. 487 00:52:35,759.9837153 --> 00:53:03,254.9837153 Like, I think it was the only time that I was, uh, I've lived few situations where you could end up being in shock, but I, I, I can always, you know, think, you know, it's like, okay, what this happened later, you know, did the same situation, but usually it's like, okay, I can, that a second can last a minute for me and I can think, um, okay, but that was the, for the first time it was like, I couldn't, I couldn't cope with it, you know, really couldn't cope. 488 00:53:03,254.9837153 --> 00:53:09,384.9837153 So my mind was like, uh, like a record going like, uh, this cannot be true. 489 00:53:09,424.9837153 --> 00:53:11,184.9837153 I mean, this, this is not real. 490 00:53:11,184.9837153 --> 00:53:12,14.9837153 This cannot be true. 491 00:53:12,74.9837153 --> 00:53:12,964.9827153 Like, this is not real. 492 00:53:12,974.9837153 --> 00:53:16,944.9837153 Like, uh, I, it was like, uh, like cannot be happening. 493 00:53:17,54.9837153 --> 00:53:18,584.9837153 Like, uh, Horrible. 494 00:53:19,264.9837153 --> 00:53:28,344.9837153 And, uh, so, um, since, uh, because I know the first thing I saw was this club. 495 00:53:28,554.9837153 --> 00:53:30,814.9827153 So I remember the, the door of the place. 496 00:53:31,244.9837153 --> 00:53:37,64.9837153 So from that place to the, to the corner is less, I don't know, maybe 50 meters, 40, 50 meters. 497 00:53:37,854.9837153 --> 00:53:41,664.9837153 So, uh, I was thinking that, you know, this cannot be happening. 498 00:53:41,674.9837153 --> 00:53:42,734.9837153 This cannot be true. 499 00:53:43,344.9837153 --> 00:53:49,544.9837153 And the guy kept repeating, or at least I thought he kept repeating, you know, like, uh, just do whatever I say. 500 00:53:49,544.9837153 --> 00:53:50,514.9837153 And I'm not going to hurt you. 501 00:53:50,514.9837153 --> 00:53:51,594.9827153 Just do whatever I say. 502 00:53:52,424.9837153 --> 00:54:01,484.9837153 So when we reached the corner there, I could just, I could like, I could go back, back to my body and my mind. 503 00:54:01,924.9837153 --> 00:54:10,899.9837153 And I saw this, uh, in the, this house at the corner and, uh, I could grab a bar of the, of the, of the gate. 504 00:54:10,929.9837153 --> 00:54:14,559.9837153 So it was, uh, but it was like two movements at the same time. 505 00:54:15,129.9837153 --> 00:54:22,419.9837153 And like, I, while I was grabbing the, the gate with this hand, because I was like, Like a victim, you know, I just I couldn't do anything. 506 00:54:22,789.9837153 --> 00:54:43,784.9837153 So while I was grabbing the bar from the gate I Made this very with all the strength I have like that because the guy was at the back so I did this and I tried to push him away from me and I It was that second where I could, okay, I, I need to like rescue myself or something there. 507 00:54:43,814.9837153 --> 00:54:51,794.9837153 I could like, I could go inside the time and I could think what I was doing, you know, like really, it wasn't just, this is going to be happening. 508 00:54:52,4.9827153 --> 00:54:56,64.9832153 This is happening and I need to do something about, you know? Yeah, exactly. 509 00:54:56,64.9832153 --> 00:55:05,894.9837153 So while I was grabbing this, I was pushing him and that was It was this moment that was incredible, that was crazy, that was like, that really saved me. 510 00:55:06,504.9837153 --> 00:55:13,414.9837153 While pushing him, I realized he had, he, his heart was going so, he was running so, so fast. 511 00:55:14,144.9837153 --> 00:55:14,784.9837153 So fast. 512 00:55:15,24.9837153 --> 00:55:22,264.9837153 Uh, it, it was incredible, you know? And, uh, so there it was just, yeah, just, it's like, yeah, of course. 513 00:55:22,294.9837153 --> 00:55:28,689.9837153 I mean, this guy, I don't know if he's going to, you know, Rape me or rape me or kill me, but there were no other choices. 514 00:55:28,689.9837153 --> 00:55:42,174.9837153 It was just one or the other one or both, you know, it was like, uh, uh, And that street, I remember, that was one of the famous, you know, Oh, be careful with that street because it's like, uh, You know, like very careful, just very dark. 515 00:55:42,174.9837153 --> 00:55:45,374.9837153 So we were almost entering, you know, the dark street. 516 00:55:46,94.9837153 --> 00:55:53,804.9837153 So, uh, when I realized this about his heart, it was like, okay, this is, this is my, I mean, I, I, I can handle this, you know, it was a second. 517 00:55:53,804.9837153 --> 00:56:06,134.9837153 It's like, okay, so, and I swear to God, I started talking like if he was a puppy, really? So, and, uh, so I just, I, I, you know, I, I in a, I don't know, one second, two seconds. 518 00:56:06,134.9837153 --> 00:56:06,584.9837153 I don't know. 519 00:56:07,144.9837153 --> 00:56:10,774.9837153 I, I, I really calmed down and of without. 520 00:56:11,279.9837153 --> 00:56:15,579.9837153 You know, uh, still holding to the, to the gate and still holding him. 521 00:56:15,599.9837153 --> 00:56:16,829.9837153 He was like, I was in the middle. 522 00:56:17,309.9837153 --> 00:56:18,599.9837153 I started talking to him. 523 00:56:18,729.9837153 --> 00:56:26,929.9827153 Uh, what I remember for sure is like I said, you know, uh, um, if you hurt me, you're going to be, trust me. 524 00:56:26,979.9827153 --> 00:56:29,479.9837153 If you hurt me, you're going to, you're going to feel horrible. 525 00:56:29,909.9837153 --> 00:56:31,949.9837153 Like, please listen to me. 526 00:56:32,479.9837153 --> 00:56:33,609.9837153 Look me into the eyes. 527 00:56:33,665.0837153 --> 00:56:54,804.9837153 Look me in the eyes, and I kept repeating that, look me in the eyes, because I realized, I mean, if you connect with me, like, uh, yeah, it's not that easy to hurt someone, really, like, uh, I think that I need to keep thinking that, you know, and, uh, So that was one aspect. 528 00:56:54,814.9837153 --> 00:57:08,204.9837153 And the other one, because this aspect I actually realized later, but what was clear, it was, yeah, of course, his heart is racing because, I mean, what, what, because of what he's going to do. 529 00:57:08,244.9837153 --> 00:57:24,474.9837153 And if I keep playing the, the role I'm supposed to, you know, if I'm the victim in the situation, if I resist this, if, and it was, uh, it's like, I cannot fight this guy because You know, I'm not, I'm not going to lose, you know, I know I'm going to lose for sure. 530 00:57:25,44.9837153 --> 00:57:28,274.9837153 So I need to use my mind because I know I can win there. 531 00:57:28,879.9837153 --> 00:57:40,999.9837153 And, uh, um, and so it was realizing that and realizing that if I was calm, I was out of the game he was suggesting to play. 532 00:57:41,68.9128289 --> 00:57:41,908.9128289 Mm. 533 00:57:42,199.9837153 --> 00:57:54,399.9837153 So it's like, it's like I took a step aside, holding the gate, of course, no, but like psychologically it's like I took a step aside and, and he remained like, uh, like, uh, totally in shock. 534 00:57:55,189.9837153 --> 00:58:00,499.9837153 And so when I the narrative Yeah, no, yeah, so exactly. 535 00:58:00,529.9837153 --> 00:58:15,589.9837153 So when he was like, when I realized he was in shock, I, I, I was aware of it and he said, I don't know if this is in the story, he said, next time I will kill you and he left. 536 00:58:15,639.9827153 --> 00:58:16,669.9827153 I didn't turn around. 537 00:58:16,669.9837153 --> 00:58:20,189.9837153 I didn't, didn't know where he, so I just, I kept walking. 538 00:58:20,619.9837153 --> 00:58:56,284.8827153 Slowly at the beginning and then after half a block I started running like as I never ran in my life before And arrived home like, you know, like with the stretches of breath and everything is like Just happened but when I could uh understand the situation it was So truly amazing, you know, so, so of course I was lucky because I mean, I, I'm aware that I was very lucky because I could tell he was not on drugs, for example, and he could have been in a state of mind that I couldn't have done anything that I'm aware of that. 539 00:58:56,664.9827153 --> 00:59:17,459.9837153 Uh, but I was very lucky that he was not, you know, and, uh, and that situation was incredible because it was a hand, you know, in the heart and realizing, wow, he is like a, an, Then when I thought about it, uh, that it was like so, so crazy, like realizing that I connected with this guy, but that's why I could turn it around. 540 00:59:17,829.9837153 --> 00:59:23,449.9837153 And it was like, you know, like, uh, uh, it was a crazy situation. 541 00:59:23,538.9128289 --> 00:59:28,218.9128289 and that story is in your essay about madness pretty early on as well. 542 00:59:28,278.9128289 --> 00:59:34,998.9128289 It's, it's, it's as though there's a lesson there as well for relationships with others and in dances that go different ways. 543 00:59:34,998.9128289 --> 00:59:35,268.9128289 Right. 544 00:59:35,568.9128289 --> 01:00:04,694.9827153 Uh, in that case, he, he was proposing a certain move for you and a dance in a very sinister, cynical way, and you were like, Nope, that's not something I would like Yeah, and you know what? I realized about the layers afterwards, but I wanted to add that story, especially because, uh, all the, I mean, um, all the ideas people have about like madness and, you know, what are supposed to be crazy people. 545 01:00:04,694.9837153 --> 01:00:14,677.4837153 It's like, oh, it's like, uh, uh, and this guy, it was a regular guy, a regular height, a regular everything, the most regular guy Yeah. 546 01:00:14,677.4837153 --> 01:00:14,739.8837153 Yeah. 547 01:00:14,989.9837153 --> 01:00:31,134.9837153 You could see on the streets, like the most, it's like, uh, you could see that guy in a coffee and I could have talked to him, you know, like, uh, so I decided to add that sort of, because of that, at the beginning, it's like, uh, You, you judge, uh, you judge what's different so easily. 548 01:00:31,154.9837153 --> 01:00:35,574.9827153 It's like, oh, that guy, whatever, is dirty because he's living on, because he's homeless. 549 01:00:35,574.9837153 --> 01:00:41,144.9837153 Or that, that person is, I don't know, is too big or too, oh, kick and hurt me. 550 01:00:41,144.9837153 --> 01:00:45,104.9837153 You know, like, it's so easy to judge according to appearances. 551 01:00:45,124.9827153 --> 01:00:49,244.9837153 And this was the most regular guy you could see. 552 01:00:49,544.9837153 --> 01:00:56,544.9837153 So that's why I say, oh, I need to add the story because, and then I realized, oh no, there are many other layers here, you know, about. 553 01:00:58,439.9837153 --> 01:01:06,619.9827153 So, so yeah, that's why it was like, no, no, this has to be here and it's about fear and madness is about fear as well. 554 01:01:06,649.9827153 --> 01:01:07,129.9837153 So, yeah. 555 01:01:07,968.9128289 --> 01:01:09,518.9128289 thanks for retelling that. 556 01:01:09,588.9128289 --> 01:01:13,528.9128289 It's a really, it's a story that stays with you, for sure. 557 01:01:14,158.9128289 --> 01:01:29,569.9837153 Is there anything I haven't asked you, Lili, or anything else you'd like to say? Oh, uh, I think we could talk for hours and we could keep talking, you know? So, uh, no, uh, no, no, no. 558 01:01:30,19.9837153 --> 01:01:34,879.9837153 I mean, there's nothing specific, you know, like I would say, oh, I have to tell this. 559 01:01:34,889.9837153 --> 01:01:36,689.9837153 It's like, I don't know. 560 01:01:36,849.9837153 --> 01:01:39,674.9837153 Uh, No, no, there's nothing really. 561 01:01:39,674.9837153 --> 01:01:42,834.9837153 Everything is moving and, uh, it will keep moving. 562 01:01:42,884.9837153 --> 01:01:50,624.9837153 And, uh, I, I just want to, to go deeper into the words and, uh, I want to keep writing, I don't know. 563 01:01:51,438.9128289 --> 01:01:53,808.9118289 I like that line, everything's moving and keeps moving. 564 01:01:53,878.9118289 --> 01:01:57,138.9128289 That was not the answer I was expecting, but it works perfectly as a response. 565 01:01:57,238.9128289 --> 01:02:00,618.9128289 I have some lightning round questions for you. 566 01:02:00,948.9128289 --> 01:02:02,678.9128289 before we, before we sign off. 567 01:02:03,218.9128289 --> 01:02:07,88.9128289 Um, although we can, we can stay in, we can stay in debrief a little bit after we sign off. 568 01:02:07,658.9128289 --> 01:02:12,554.9837153 Uh, a skill you're currently working on? German. 569 01:02:13,88.9128289 --> 01:02:14,968.9128289 German yes. 570 01:02:15,468.9128289 --> 01:02:17,981.2837153 Favorite way to relax? bath. 571 01:02:17,981.2837153 --> 01:02:18,872.8337153 Meditation. 572 01:02:18,872.8337153 --> 01:02:21,547.4837153 More than one. 573 01:02:21,547.4837153 --> 01:02:26,896.7837153 But I want to give context. 574 01:02:26,896.7837153 --> 01:02:28,108.9128289 I too. 575 01:02:28,158.9128289 --> 01:02:28,478.9128289 Okay. 576 01:02:28,808.9128289 --> 01:02:48,789.9837153 An unpopular opinion that you hold? We spent decades working on opening. 577 01:02:49,49.9837153 --> 01:03:09,44.9837153 One of the best things that happened in the last decades I think is being able to open a little bit the mind, the structure, the the idea of you know sexuality and and now I think there are things that they are supposed to be in the way of opening but I think it's Actually, they are closing because they are judging so soon. 578 01:03:10,314.9837153 --> 01:03:10,704.9837153 Thanks. 579 01:03:10,704.9837153 --> 01:03:14,854.9837153 And there are people are not staying in the, with the, with the door open. 580 01:03:14,854.9837153 --> 01:03:17,954.9827153 They're saying, Oh no, you know, I'm this because of just one thing. 581 01:03:17,964.9827153 --> 01:03:19,764.9837153 And it's like, uh, let it be, man. 582 01:03:19,824.9837153 --> 01:03:22,344.9827153 I'll say, let it be open. 583 01:03:22,404.9837153 --> 01:03:29,608.9128289 Sorry, but I cannot, because it's risky to, to leave that, you know, with one sentence, but it's like, know. 584 01:03:30,584.9837153 --> 01:03:36,718.9128289 but you know what I mean? I think that you're, you're encouraging, uh, the non use of labels. 585 01:03:37,208.9128289 --> 01:03:39,573.9128289 Even if they're Alternative labels. 586 01:03:39,643.9128289 --> 01:03:41,573.9128289 Even alternative labels can constrict. 587 01:03:42,489.9837153 --> 01:03:45,943.9128289 absolutely, because they, you'll end up being caught in Sure. 588 01:03:46,633.9128289 --> 01:03:50,893.9128289 Uh, one more topic for, for the future, for our next conversation. 589 01:03:50,913.9128289 --> 01:03:55,899.9837153 Uh, something you're grateful for, Oh, so many things. 590 01:03:59,19.9837153 --> 01:03:59,849.9837153 Being healthy. 591 01:04:01,959.9837153 --> 01:04:05,629.9837153 Being the people I met in my life. 592 01:04:05,630.0837153 --> 01:04:07,384.9832153 Believing. 593 01:04:07,384.9832153 --> 01:04:14,109.9827153 Yeah, including the person who, including the person who brought us together, Alejandra, who absolutely. 594 01:04:14,459.9827153 --> 01:04:15,739.9837153 Oh my god. 595 01:04:16,579.9837153 --> 01:04:17,449.9837153 Yeah, absolutely. 596 01:04:18,19.9837153 --> 01:04:18,399.9837153 Yeah. 597 01:04:18,469.9837153 --> 01:04:19,289.9837153 Huge one. 598 01:04:19,309.9837153 --> 01:04:19,999.9837153 She's in the South. 599 01:04:19,999.9837153 --> 01:04:23,249.9837153 She's traveling with my, my goddaughter right now. 600 01:04:23,709.9837153 --> 01:04:25,59.9832153 Yeah, absolutely. 601 01:04:25,59.9832153 --> 01:04:25,329.9827153 Yeah. 602 01:04:25,329.9837153 --> 01:04:28,239.9837153 I'm grateful about the people I met in the road. 603 01:04:28,379.9837153 --> 01:04:36,479.9837153 Let's say that's number one, you know, health, because I had this issue short time ago, but, but it's like, it's, it's people I met along the way. 604 01:04:37,159.9837153 --> 01:04:37,789.9837153 Hands down. 605 01:04:37,849.9837153 --> 01:04:38,119.9837153 Yeah. 606 01:04:38,698.9128289 --> 01:04:39,528.9128289 The last one. 607 01:04:39,938.9128289 --> 01:04:41,828.9128289 A song or album you would recommend. 608 01:04:45,349.9837153 --> 01:04:46,819.9837153 You're going to laugh about this one. 609 01:04:46,879.9837153 --> 01:04:48,49.9837153 I love Metallica. 610 01:04:48,598.9128289 --> 01:04:49,58.9128289 Okay. 611 01:04:49,859.9837153 --> 01:04:51,729.9837153 Uh, the first show they did in Buenos Aires. 612 01:04:53,34.9837153 --> 01:04:56,484.9837153 It was the best show I've seen in the world. 613 01:04:57,374.9837153 --> 01:05:04,194.9837153 Redonditos Ricotta, also really good. 614 01:05:04,638.9128289 --> 01:05:08,564.9837153 Is that a group? Yeah, Argentinian group. 615 01:05:08,565.0837153 --> 01:05:16,318.9128289 Yeah, yeah, of ricotta cheese. 616 01:05:16,378.9118289 --> 01:05:21,444.9837153 Is that right? something like that. 617 01:05:21,504.9827153 --> 01:05:24,174.9837153 And, uh, Oh, let me think. 618 01:05:24,204.9837153 --> 01:05:37,934.9837153 Oh, hmm, hmm. 619 01:05:42,324.9837153 --> 01:05:43,344.9837153 I cannot choose one. 620 01:05:43,964.9837153 --> 01:05:44,354.9837153 I love it. 621 01:05:44,354.9837153 --> 01:05:53,974.9837153 You know, like, yeah, like, uh, eighties, nineties, you know, rock heavy metal bands. 622 01:05:54,34.9837153 --> 01:05:58,464.9837153 Uh, but I love techno music as well, you know, but I wouldn't, I don't know. 623 01:05:58,494.9837153 --> 01:06:01,434.9837153 I cannot choose, you know, uh, one album. 624 01:06:02,28.9128289 --> 01:06:05,348.8128289 I think that it's accurately translated. 625 01:06:06,98.9128289 --> 01:06:09,818.9128289 Surprising you were correct that I was not expecting you to, to say hard metal. 626 01:06:10,348.9128289 --> 01:06:12,478.9128289 It's been such a lovely time talking to you. 627 01:06:12,538.9128289 --> 01:06:18,103.9128289 Uh, so many topics left to left to discover, but I'm, I'm really happy to have been able to pick your mind. 628 01:06:19,854.9837153 --> 01:06:23,214.9837153 I'm, I'm so honored, uh, about this conversation. 629 01:06:23,214.9837153 --> 01:06:23,514.9837153 Uh. 630 01:06:23,575.0837153 --> 01:06:30,234.9837153 I mean, you really, you were listening and, uh, and, uh, it was a pleasure. 631 01:06:30,304.9837153 --> 01:06:32,4.9837153 It was a pleasure to, to talk to you. 632 01:06:32,14.9837153 --> 01:06:34,264.9837153 Really grateful about this, this space. 633 01:06:38,922.8265076 --> 01:06:39,972.8265076 Thanks for being here. 634 01:06:40,542.8265076 --> 01:06:48,72.8265076 If this conversation resonated with you, consider reviewing therapy for the world or sharing the link with someone who might appreciate it. 635 01:06:48,732.8265076 --> 01:06:52,182.8265076 Until next time, speak with care and listen deeply.