March 31, 2025 • 19 mins
Introduction Rev. Dr. Justin Sabia-Tanis is the Associate Professor of Christian Ethics and Social Transformation Supported by the McVay Endowment, Program Director for Social Transformation. He is an amazing theologian, scholar, pastor, and so much more. You will find a link to his landmark book Transgender below, too.
Get ready to discover about how The Good Samaritan parable can be read from a trans lens.
Links and Goodies (Amazon affiliate links are ahead)
Follow Justin on Facebook, Instagram, and BlueSky.
You can check out Justin’s book Transgender: Theology, Ministry, and Communities of Faith here.
You can get your copy of Trans Biblical directly from the publisher right here. To use the 40% discount (for those in the USA), enter the code TRANSBIBLICAL40. If you live outside the United States, just email the customer service department at customer_service@wjkbooks.com, and they will honor the discount.
Finally, if you'd like to leave a tip to help support this podcast, it is much appreciated! The tip jar can be found here. Suggested amounts so you don't have to struggle: - $1 if you're worried about your personal well being right now (stay safe y'all -- you're the priority) - $5 if you're feeling inspired by the content - $10 if you're inspired and learning a lot, and not personally struggling!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to Trans Biblical,
a podcast where we talk about
how gender variation is as
ancient as stories about
creation. In fact,
that's the very first sentence
in the new book, Trans Biblical.
My name is Katy E.
Valentine.
This is a limited series podcast
and I'm going to bring you
authors and friends of the book
to talk a lot about gender
identities like transgender,
(00:21):
non, binary, and so much more,
all in conversation with the
Bible and other ancient texts.
We do have a special discount on
the book right now for 40% off
through the publisher,
Westminster John Knox that you
can find below in the show notes
through May 10, 2025.
Let's get started.
This is the very first full
(00:42):
length episode of Trans
Biblical. And today,
I am so pleased and honored
to welcome Reverend Dr.
Justin Sabia- Tanis. Hey, Justin.
How are you?
Good. How are you, Katy?
I'm great.
Justin is a contributor to the
book and Justin and I have
known each other for a long time
now. Yeah. And so it's such a,
it's such a delight and pleasure
(01:03):
to be able to read your work in
this way and to collaborate
on the book.
So why don't you just start off
with telling us who you
are and what you do,
the kind of scholarship
that you work on.
Sure.
I am an associate professor of
Christian Ethics and Social
transformation at United
Theological Seminary in the Twin
Cities in Minnesota in the
United States. And I work,
(01:23):
teach classes mostly on social
change the environment and queer
and trans theologies.
I've been a minister, a scholar,
an activist.
I've worked in public,
public policy work on behalf
of,
of LGBTQ people for,
for a long time as well as
pastoring primarily
lgbtq churches.
(01:44):
I'm now a pastor with the
United Church of Christ.
And
yeah I'm delighted to be in a
place where I can bring all
of those pieces together.
So I really come to this writing
as really thinking about
this from a pastoral lens
as well as an activist,
activist lens.
And I also wrote about trans
theology a long time ago,
(02:05):
almost 25, 25 years ago.
So I've been,
have been writing and thinking
in this area for,
for a little bit now.
Yeah.
So, Justin, you have a
landmark book called now called
Transgender that was republished
about six years ago or so and
that was the original
publication date was
about 25 years ago.
Is that
I think it was 2000.
(02:26):
okay? So 20 something years ago.
So if you haven't read that
book, I highly recommend it.
And you were really one of the
first people to write an entire
chapter on the Bible
in that book,
which was really helpful for me
when I first started diving into
this about, about 10 years ago.
And I've talked to so many
(02:46):
people who told me that that
book literally saved
their lives.
So if it's not on
your bookshelf,
get it on your bookshelf.
Thank you. Thank you. Yeah,
I've been really humbled at the
impact that it's had on people
and what people have shared
with me about,
about how it influenced their
journey. So. Yeah,
Yeah, so it's it's, it's,
it's a standard.
But I think it's also continues
to be so relevant just given
(03:07):
everything that's happening
in the world right now.
So. Yeah.
I think we have a good hint,
but tell us why,
why say yes to this project,
to being
a contributor
to Trans Biblical?
Yeah a couple of reasons.
1,
I think that
the time has really
come to explore
how trans people are
(03:29):
contributing to,
to the religious conversation.
And so I think the time
is right for you know,
really trans focused volume on,
on issues of the Bible.
I also am really motivated by
the fact that readings of the
Bible around gender identity are
so incorrect in the popular
imagination. Right.
That it is just so vastly
inaccurate that people have
(03:49):
taken so sort of social
prejudices against trans people
and kind of impose those on the
Bible in a way that's very
inaccurate. Right.
The Bible has so many positive
things actually to say about
about gender differences or,
or just including characters
figures in the Bible who,
who do have a variety
of genders that the,
(04:12):
the sort of anti trans reading
of the Bible just,
just isn't accurate.
And so I felt really,
felt it really important both
for sort of the sense of
biblical accuracy to,
to talk about those issues,
but also for trans people
ourselves and for our families
to see that,
that what people are saying is
in the Bible is not accurate to
what is actually there and that
(04:32):
it could actually be a resource
for us. You know, I think with,
for sexual orientation the Bible
is more complicated,
but for gender identity there's
that it's actually
does not have,
it actually does have a very
positive inclusive message.
And so
it was one of those things that
as a scholar, as a preacher,
as a pastor,
it really irks me that people
(04:53):
were reading it inaccurately and
failing to see the real riches
that were there around gender
identity that might inform how
we live our lives
as trans people,
but also for other people to
think about how to include trans
people in communities.
What are one of the passages
that people really kind
of impose their.
(05:13):
Incorrect viewpoints on
that comes to mind.
One that comes to my mind
is like Genesis 1:27-28.
It's so interesting that that's
held up by really variant
communities as either inclusion
or exclusive.
Right I mean,
I think the idea that
(05:35):
theGenesis somehow imposes that
there's only a binary and
there's no in between spaces
just doesn't seem even remotely
accurate to our experiences
of the world. You know,
it doesn't switch from
day to night
with a light. Right.
Right?
I mean that every one of those
categories from the plants and
(05:55):
animals to land and sea
to air and sky,
It
like all of these things have
liminal intermediate zones in
which there's blending.
So there,
every one of them is a spectrum.
Any even those, those spaces,
those in between spaces like
dusk and dawn are some of the
things that we value most.
(06:16):
So why would sudden.
Why would that be true of
all of those categories?
And suddenly for,
for gender it's it.
Or for you know, biological sex,
somehow that's different than
the whole rest of the passage.
That seems,
that defies logic to me.
And so it's a very simplistic
Yeah.
(06:36):
reading that fails to see the
sort of the goodness of
creation itself.
And even God's inclusion of
God's self as both male and
female I think is modeled
right there.
That
there's.
That there's more richness
to the story. And so Yes,
that imposition of a
simplistic reading.
(06:59):
Yeah, that, yeah, that's,
that's one, you know, we,
we hear all the time.
So readers, you can,
you can look at our volume and
practically anywhere that talks
about gender identity
in the Bible. We'll,
we'll talk about that. And,
and there's some helpful,
lots of different helpful
ways to look. Yeah.
Look at Genesis 1 in particular,
plus others. So well your,
your chapter in this book is on
the Good Samaritan, which is,
you know,
it's such a fan favorite and I
(07:19):
just love what you did with it.
So brief overview of some major
takeaways that people might have
after they read your chapter.
Yeah I think one thing that's
really important is to think
about what the role of
Samaritans was at that time.
And in this particular story in
Luke that Jesus actually was
trying to go to Samaria.
And he sends his disciples ahead
(07:42):
to sort of as an advanced team
to get ready for that.
And they throw them out.
And so, you know,
there's this call for fire
and brimstone to rain.
There's this very negative
interaction that Jesus is
basically rejected by the
people of Samaria.
And
instead of going along with
these calls to you know,
denounce them or you know,
(08:04):
any of these things
Jesus tells a story about the
people who just rejected
him as the neighbor.
And I think that's so
such an important.
Like that there's the content
of the story which we're
all familiar with,
but this context of the story
is also so important.
Because it says when we are
rejected by someone Jesus is
(08:24):
living out that acceptance
of the enemy. That's the,
and the lifting up of
this hated others,
this rejecting other category
of people as this spiritual
exemplar of,
of one of the most important
commandments. Right?
One of the two most important
Its
commandments is lived out by
this person who is
seen as other.
And in a world in which there
(08:45):
continues to be rampant
discrimination,
fear hatred against transgender
and non binary people, to say,
we can be, we,
we fit that example we are
this rejected other.
And yet Jesus can lift us up as
an exemplar of what does
it mean to show mercy,
(09:05):
what does it mean to
be a neighbor?
And I think that's a real
challenge for, for all of us.
In the chapter, not only though,
do I put this trans person
as the, as that person,
but also what would it mean for
a trans person to experience
someone we see as the reject as
the rejecting other to be
the Samaritan as well.
(09:26):
Because I think
these stories are spiritual
resources for all of us.
And so queer and trans people
still should get the benefit
of the challenge of
Jesus's teaching.
Like we still get to
the right to be the
beneficiaries of that.
And so that also means expanding
our minds to say,
how might we see the humanity or
the neighborliness in those
(09:46):
who oppress us?
Just as Jesus was
doing with the,
with his experience with
the Samaritans there.
And so I think this passage is,
yeah,
it's a story we learned in
Sunday school, or we learn,
you know, we learn as children.
And yet it's radical.
Yeah
And in, you know,
the time when you wrote this,
we were in a very different
(10:07):
administration than
we are right now.
And so that lesson seems tougher
Oh yeah.
right now than it did, you know,
a couple of years ago when round
one was completed.
When I was absolutely,
I mean one of the things that I
was reflecting on in preparation
for this conversation was
thinking, oh my gosh,
like the situation is so
(10:29):
much worse than when,
when I was....
Yeah
So much more dangerous.
The the codification into law of
explicit discrimination
against trans people,
the systemic exclusion of trans
people from public spaces is
far worse. And so the,
our need to
(10:52):
learn from stories like this to
learn what does it mean
to show mercy,
what does it mean to
show kindness,
what does it mean to embody the
neighbor is far more urgent than
it was when I wrote
the story and so
wrote the chapter.
And so I was kind of I'd say I
was kind of floored by just how
(11:15):
just that difference in a couple
of years how that has impacted
us in our communities.
And I think it speaks to the
timelessness of the
Good Samaritan.
It is a story that continues to
be unfortunately so
relevant and,
and the so the timelessness
of the Good Samaritan,
but also the very specific
(11:35):
context where we can reinterpret
it and experience it. So I,
I love it that that's the story
that called to you
for this project.
Yeah, yeah,
Yeah.
Well this is so everyone
can grab the book.
If you haven't read the chapter
it,
And this is,
this is also,
I think it's great for scholars
and I think this is also
a great chapter for
(11:55):
really curious adult Sunday
school classes and readers too.
And so that it'd be.
It make a great two or
three Sunday session.
For those who are,
who are curious about that.
So we talked about
it a little bit,
but let's get into it
even a little more.
This is very relevant right now.
Maybe just continue to talk to
us a couple of reasons about
(12:17):
yourcommitment and your reasons
and passions for, you know,
doing this work and continuing
to do this work.
yeah. I mean, I think,
I think one thing that's really
important is that we
Constantly need to rehumanize
people who are othered in
(12:37):
society or who are demonized
in society.
We have to continually recognize
that these are human beings
we're talking about.
And it's one of the most
important tactics against
authoritarianism,
against politically motivated,
socially motivated violence.
And so in reading these
characters and sort of creating
characters of modern equivalents
(12:58):
Its
to play out in the
Samaritan story,
that was one thing that was
really important to me is how do
we see the other as a human
being worthy of care?
And I think recognizing that
trans people are sacred
that are,
we are part of the
sacred story we,
we matter in the sacred story is
(13:19):
one way to push back against
forces of oppression and
discrimination and even violence
that people see us that way.
And so recognizing the parts
of the biblical story,
including the blessings to
eunuchs and Isaiah the,
the baptism of the Ethiopian
eunuch like that, all,
all the different ways we can
see trancestors, see our
(13:41):
antecedents in the
biblical story,
recognize that we're part
of the sacred story.
Thats one way I think that's
that's really important as part
of this process of what we're
facing right now and also
holding ourselves accountable.
I talk,
talk in the chapter about
holding ourselves accountable
to the specific, you know,
trans people and non binary
people who are facing the worst
(14:01):
of the discrimination and
violence in our society.
That biblical scholarship
to my mind as an activist and as
a preacher is not about simply
playing the text for its own
sake but saying how do these
positively impact people
in the world right now?
(14:22):
And I would say,
I guess another motivation
for me is
you know I've been very out and
I'm going to continue to be out
and be unafraid and speak out
about the blessedness of our
communities, about the,
about the humanity,
about
the joy in our lives,
all of these things.
(14:42):
Speaking positively as a trans
scholar and speaking positively
about the Bible
and scholarship around the Bible
these are really important to me
as a way to resist the forces in
our society, society right now.
Its necessary that we, we take,
we have courage and we speak.
(15:05):
One of the things I love about
your chapter is that the Good
Samaritan is not obviously
about gender identity.
Right. Or about, you know,
I don't know,
it's obviously about gender,
I guess at all.
And so I love it that you've
taken the story and you've read
that from a very particular
perspective
that talk about
that lend themselves more to
(15:27):
this kind of conversation and
that you're able to bring the,
your perspective into a story
that's such a golden story
Yeah, well,
for us.
yeah.
And I think this is because,
because you know,
queer and trans and non
binary like folks,
we all deserve the spiritual
benefits of the teachings
of the Bible. If,
if we want to access those,
(15:48):
not everyone does. But,
but for those who want to,
to learn from this story of
Jesus, it is still our story.
It is still, we have a,
we have a spiritual right to
to,
to access these texts and
understand what they might speak
to us and how we might learn
from them. And so that's,
that's one reason it's important
to me to bring these,
to bring these,
to bring these stories into
(16:11):
a modern context is so that we
can continue to benefit from,
from reading them for,
for our sake as well as.
You know, it's very easy to say,
oh, those other people,
they don't get what the Good
Samaritan is, but I do.
Yeah
Right. But I think it, you know,
it's a story that should,
should come 360 degrees
and help us see. Yes,
(16:32):
that's true about others,
but it's also true for ourselves
and what we might learn from it.
How do I continually challenge
myself to be that kind
of neighbor?
I love it.
Its so exciting.
So tell us.
Yeah,
tell us what else you might
be working on and where,
where people can find
you and find your.
yeah.
So a lot of my work right
(16:53):
now is my teaching.
I'm very excited right now to be
teaching classes on social
transformation, on eco justice,
on queer and trans theology.
As a,
I mentioned working with
incredible students here at
United Theological Seminary
of the Twin Cities.
The other projects
I'm working on,
I'm finishing up some work
on queer artists.
(17:14):
A book that was part of my
dissertation and sort of a spin
off from that and looking at the
ways in which we can learn about
spirituality that exists outside
of religious institutions by
examining the work of queer
artists art as a lens into,
into communities that may not
have always been included in our
theology or our scholarship.
(17:35):
And so I'm very excited about
that project which I'm
just wrapping up.
And I'm also started work on
a volume on queer and
trans ethics.
Thinking about ethics in a broad
perspective because so,
so much of the ethical
conversations have been about
sexual ethics or the ethics of
gender transition.
And these are important
questions.
But there's so much more about
(17:56):
how we create families,
how we look, live in the world,
how we understand ourselves
as ethical beings.
And so there's a little flurry
of writing on queer again,
lesbian ethics in the 90s and
some very specific
volumes recently.
But I'm really interested in how
do we look holistically at those
questions that really rises out
(18:17):
of questions my students
have asked in classes.
So I'm starting work on that.
Awesome
Great.
If people want to follow you,
are you on any particular social
media channels that are
your favorites?
I'm on Facebook and,
and Instagram and I'm just
got started on Blue sky.
Okay,
we'll put all your handles.
(18:38):
Handles underneath there.
I'm just barely on blue sky,
too, so let's like each other,
and
Yeah.
So I don't have any fancy
type fancy handles, but
that's fine. Yeah,
we'll put all those. So awesome.
Well, thank you so much.
Thank you for everything
you've done,
and this is such a pleasure,
from beginning to end.
Oh wonderful to talk to you,
Katy.
(18:59):
Thank you so much for listening
to this first full length
episode of transbiblical.
It is our pleasure to bring it
to you if you are wanting to
dive deeper into this topic.
Of course,
the link to buy the book is
below and you have your
40% off discount.
That's good through May 10,
2025.
If you'd like to support the
podcast in other ways,
there's a little link to buy a
(19:19):
cup of coffee for the creators.
It just helps offset some of
and the time that goes into
producing this. Most of all,
we want you to live your most
authentic full life.
If you are gender variant,
gender diverse,
trans non binary,
know that you are supported and
this podcast is one small way
that we are offering
some support.
(19:40):
Let us hear from you and see
you in the next episode.
Welcome to Trans Biblical,
a podcast where we talk about
how gender variation is as
ancient as stories about
creation. In fact,
that's the very first sentence
in the new book, Trans Biblical.
My name is Katy E.
Valentine.
This is a limited series podcast
and I'm going to bring you
authors and friends of the book
to talk a lot about gender
identities like transgender,
(00:21):
non, binary, and so much more,
all in conversation with the
Bible and other ancient texts.
We do have a special discount on
the book right now for 40% off
through the publisher,
Westminster John Knox that you
can find below in the show notes
through May 10, 2025.
Let's get started.
This is the very first full
(00:42):
length episode of Trans
Biblical. And today,
I am so pleased and honored
to welcome Reverend Dr.
Justin Sabia- Tanis. Hey, Justin.
How are you?
Good. How are you, Katy?
I'm great.
Justin is a contributor to the
book and Justin and I have
known each other for a long time
now. Yeah. And so it's such a,
it's such a delight and pleasure
(01:03):
to be able to read your work in
this way and to collaborate
on the book.
So why don't you just start off
with telling us who you
are and what you do,
the kind of scholarship
that you work on.
Sure.
I am an associate professor of
Christian Ethics and Social
transformation at United
Theological Seminary in the Twin
Cities in Minnesota in the
United States. And I work,
(01:23):
teach classes mostly on social
change the environment and queer
and trans theologies.
I've been a minister, a scholar,
an activist.
I've worked in public,
public policy work on behalf
of,
of LGBTQ people for,
for a long time as well as
pastoring primarily
lgbtq churches.
(01:44):
I'm now a pastor with the
United Church of Christ.
And
yeah I'm delighted to be in a
place where I can bring all
of those pieces together.
So I really come to this writing
as really thinking about
this from a pastoral lens
as well as an activist,
activist lens.
And I also wrote about trans
theology a long time ago,
(02:05):
almost 25, 25 years ago.
So I've been,
have been writing and thinking
in this area for,
for a little bit now.
Yeah.
So, Justin, you have a
landmark book called now called
Transgender that was republished
about six years ago or so and
that was the original
publication date was
about 25 years ago.
Is that
I think it was 2000.
(02:26):
okay? So 20 something years ago.
So if you haven't read that
book, I highly recommend it.
And you were really one of the
first people to write an entire
chapter on the Bible
in that book,
which was really helpful for me
when I first started diving into
this about, about 10 years ago.
And I've talked to so many
(02:46):
people who told me that that
book literally saved
their lives.
So if it's not on
your bookshelf,
get it on your bookshelf.
Thank you. Thank you. Yeah,
I've been really humbled at the
impact that it's had on people
and what people have shared
with me about,
about how it influenced their
journey. So. Yeah,
Yeah, so it's it's, it's,
it's a standard.
But I think it's also continues
to be so relevant just given
(03:07):
everything that's happening
in the world right now.
So. Yeah.
I think we have a good hint,
but tell us why,
why say yes to this project,
to being
a contributor
to Trans Biblical?
Yeah a couple of reasons.
1,
I think that
the time has really
come to explore
how trans people are
(03:29):
contributing to,
to the religious conversation.
And so I think the time
is right for you know,
really trans focused volume on,
on issues of the Bible.
I also am really motivated by
the fact that readings of the
Bible around gender identity are
so incorrect in the popular
imagination. Right.
That it is just so vastly
inaccurate that people have
(03:49):
taken so sort of social
prejudices against trans people
and kind of impose those on the
Bible in a way that's very
inaccurate. Right.
The Bible has so many positive
things actually to say about
about gender differences or,
or just including characters
figures in the Bible who,
who do have a variety
of genders that the,
(04:12):
the sort of anti trans reading
of the Bible just,
just isn't accurate.
And so I felt really,
felt it really important both
for sort of the sense of
biblical accuracy to,
to talk about those issues,
but also for trans people
ourselves and for our families
to see that,
that what people are saying is
in the Bible is not accurate to
what is actually there and that
(04:32):
it could actually be a resource
for us. You know, I think with,
for sexual orientation the Bible
is more complicated,
but for gender identity there's
that it's actually
does not have,
it actually does have a very
positive inclusive message.
And so
it was one of those things that
as a scholar, as a preacher,
as a pastor,
it really irks me that people
(04:53):
were reading it inaccurately and
failing to see the real riches
that were there around gender
identity that might inform how
we live our lives
as trans people,
but also for other people to
think about how to include trans
people in communities.
What are one of the passages
that people really kind
of impose their.
(05:13):
Incorrect viewpoints on
that comes to mind.
One that comes to my mind
is like Genesis 1:27-28.
It's so interesting that that's
held up by really variant
communities as either inclusion
or exclusive.
Right I mean,
I think the idea that
(05:35):
theGenesis somehow imposes that
there's only a binary and
there's no in between spaces
just doesn't seem even remotely
accurate to our experiences
of the world. You know,
it doesn't switch from
day to night
with a light. Right.
Right?
I mean that every one of those
categories from the plants and
(05:55):
animals to land and sea
to air and sky,
It
like all of these things have
liminal intermediate zones in
which there's blending.
So there,
every one of them is a spectrum.
Any even those, those spaces,
those in between spaces like
dusk and dawn are some of the
things that we value most.
(06:16):
So why would sudden.
Why would that be true of
all of those categories?
And suddenly for,
for gender it's it.
Or for you know, biological sex,
somehow that's different than
the whole rest of the passage.
That seems,
that defies logic to me.
And so it's a very simplistic
Yeah.
(06:36):
reading that fails to see the
sort of the goodness of
creation itself.
And even God's inclusion of
God's self as both male and
female I think is modeled
right there.
That
there's.
That there's more richness
to the story. And so Yes,
that imposition of a
simplistic reading.
(06:59):
Yeah, that, yeah, that's,
that's one, you know, we,
we hear all the time.
So readers, you can,
you can look at our volume and
practically anywhere that talks
about gender identity
in the Bible. We'll,
we'll talk about that. And,
and there's some helpful,
lots of different helpful
ways to look. Yeah.
Look at Genesis 1 in particular,
plus others. So well your,
your chapter in this book is on
the Good Samaritan, which is,
you know,
it's such a fan favorite and I
(07:19):
just love what you did with it.
So brief overview of some major
takeaways that people might have
after they read your chapter.
Yeah I think one thing that's
really important is to think
about what the role of
Samaritans was at that time.
And in this particular story in
Luke that Jesus actually was
trying to go to Samaria.
And he sends his disciples ahead
(07:42):
to sort of as an advanced team
to get ready for that.
And they throw them out.
And so, you know,
there's this call for fire
and brimstone to rain.
There's this very negative
interaction that Jesus is
basically rejected by the
people of Samaria.
And
instead of going along with
these calls to you know,
denounce them or you know,
(08:04):
any of these things
Jesus tells a story about the
people who just rejected
him as the neighbor.
And I think that's so
such an important.
Like that there's the content
of the story which we're
all familiar with,
but this context of the story
is also so important.
Because it says when we are
rejected by someone Jesus is
(08:24):
living out that acceptance
of the enemy. That's the,
and the lifting up of
this hated others,
this rejecting other category
of people as this spiritual
exemplar of,
of one of the most important
commandments. Right?
One of the two most important
Its
commandments is lived out by
this person who is
seen as other.
And in a world in which there
(08:45):
continues to be rampant
discrimination,
fear hatred against transgender
and non binary people, to say,
we can be, we,
we fit that example we are
this rejected other.
And yet Jesus can lift us up as
an exemplar of what does
it mean to show mercy,
(09:05):
what does it mean to
be a neighbor?
And I think that's a real
challenge for, for all of us.
In the chapter, not only though,
do I put this trans person
as the, as that person,
but also what would it mean for
a trans person to experience
someone we see as the reject as
the rejecting other to be
the Samaritan as well.
(09:26):
Because I think
these stories are spiritual
resources for all of us.
And so queer and trans people
still should get the benefit
of the challenge of
Jesus's teaching.
Like we still get to
the right to be the
beneficiaries of that.
And so that also means expanding
our minds to say,
how might we see the humanity or
the neighborliness in those
(09:46):
who oppress us?
Just as Jesus was
doing with the,
with his experience with
the Samaritans there.
And so I think this passage is,
yeah,
it's a story we learned in
Sunday school, or we learn,
you know, we learn as children.
And yet it's radical.
Yeah
And in, you know,
the time when you wrote this,
we were in a very different
(10:07):
administration than
we are right now.
And so that lesson seems tougher
Oh yeah.
right now than it did, you know,
a couple of years ago when round
one was completed.
When I was absolutely,
I mean one of the things that I
was reflecting on in preparation
for this conversation was
thinking, oh my gosh,
like the situation is so
(10:29):
much worse than when,
when I was....
Yeah
So much more dangerous.
The the codification into law of
explicit discrimination
against trans people,
the systemic exclusion of trans
people from public spaces is
far worse. And so the,
our need to
(10:52):
learn from stories like this to
learn what does it mean
to show mercy,
what does it mean to
show kindness,
what does it mean to embody the
neighbor is far more urgent than
it was when I wrote
the story and so
wrote the chapter.
And so I was kind of I'd say I
was kind of floored by just how
(11:15):
just that difference in a couple
of years how that has impacted
us in our communities.
And I think it speaks to the
timelessness of the
Good Samaritan.
It is a story that continues to
be unfortunately so
relevant and,
and the so the timelessness
of the Good Samaritan,
but also the very specific
(11:35):
context where we can reinterpret
it and experience it. So I,
I love it that that's the story
that called to you
for this project.
Yeah, yeah,
Yeah.
Well this is so everyone
can grab the book.
If you haven't read the chapter
it,
And this is,
this is also,
I think it's great for scholars
and I think this is also
a great chapter for
(11:55):
really curious adult Sunday
school classes and readers too.
And so that it'd be.
It make a great two or
three Sunday session.
For those who are,
who are curious about that.
So we talked about
it a little bit,
but let's get into it
even a little more.
This is very relevant right now.
Maybe just continue to talk to
us a couple of reasons about
(12:17):
yourcommitment and your reasons
and passions for, you know,
doing this work and continuing
to do this work.
yeah. I mean, I think,
I think one thing that's really
important is that we
Constantly need to rehumanize
people who are othered in
(12:37):
society or who are demonized
in society.
We have to continually recognize
that these are human beings
we're talking about.
And it's one of the most
important tactics against
authoritarianism,
against politically motivated,
socially motivated violence.
And so in reading these
characters and sort of creating
characters of modern equivalents
(12:58):
Its
to play out in the
Samaritan story,
that was one thing that was
really important to me is how do
we see the other as a human
being worthy of care?
And I think recognizing that
trans people are sacred
that are,
we are part of the
sacred story we,
we matter in the sacred story is
(13:19):
one way to push back against
forces of oppression and
discrimination and even violence
that people see us that way.
And so recognizing the parts
of the biblical story,
including the blessings to
eunuchs and Isaiah the,
the baptism of the Ethiopian
eunuch like that, all,
all the different ways we can
see trancestors, see our
(13:41):
antecedents in the
biblical story,
recognize that we're part
of the sacred story.
Thats one way I think that's
that's really important as part
of this process of what we're
facing right now and also
holding ourselves accountable.
I talk,
talk in the chapter about
holding ourselves accountable
to the specific, you know,
trans people and non binary
people who are facing the worst
(14:01):
of the discrimination and
violence in our society.
That biblical scholarship
to my mind as an activist and as
a preacher is not about simply
playing the text for its own
sake but saying how do these
positively impact people
in the world right now?
(14:22):
And I would say,
I guess another motivation
for me is
you know I've been very out and
I'm going to continue to be out
and be unafraid and speak out
about the blessedness of our
communities, about the,
about the humanity,
about
the joy in our lives,
all of these things.
(14:42):
Speaking positively as a trans
scholar and speaking positively
about the Bible
and scholarship around the Bible
these are really important to me
as a way to resist the forces in
our society, society right now.
Its necessary that we, we take,
we have courage and we speak.
(15:05):
One of the things I love about
your chapter is that the Good
Samaritan is not obviously
about gender identity.
Right. Or about, you know,
I don't know,
it's obviously about gender,
I guess at all.
And so I love it that you've
taken the story and you've read
that from a very particular
perspective
that talk about
that lend themselves more to
(15:27):
this kind of conversation and
that you're able to bring the,
your perspective into a story
that's such a golden story
Yeah, well,
for us.
yeah.
And I think this is because,
because you know,
queer and trans and non
binary like folks,
we all deserve the spiritual
benefits of the teachings
of the Bible. If,
if we want to access those,
(15:48):
not everyone does. But,
but for those who want to,
to learn from this story of
Jesus, it is still our story.
It is still, we have a,
we have a spiritual right to
to,
to access these texts and
understand what they might speak
to us and how we might learn
from them. And so that's,
that's one reason it's important
to me to bring these,
to bring these,
to bring these stories into
(16:11):
a modern context is so that we
can continue to benefit from,
from reading them for,
for our sake as well as.
You know, it's very easy to say,
oh, those other people,
they don't get what the Good
Samaritan is, but I do.
Yeah
Right. But I think it, you know,
it's a story that should,
should come 360 degrees
and help us see. Yes,
(16:32):
that's true about others,
but it's also true for ourselves
and what we might learn from it.
How do I continually challenge
myself to be that kind
of neighbor?
I love it.
Its so exciting.
So tell us.
Yeah,
tell us what else you might
be working on and where,
where people can find
you and find your.
yeah.
So a lot of my work right
(16:53):
now is my teaching.
I'm very excited right now to be
teaching classes on social
transformation, on eco justice,
on queer and trans theology.
As a,
I mentioned working with
incredible students here at
United Theological Seminary
of the Twin Cities.
The other projects
I'm working on,
I'm finishing up some work
on queer artists.
(17:14):
A book that was part of my
dissertation and sort of a spin
off from that and looking at the
ways in which we can learn about
spirituality that exists outside
of religious institutions by
examining the work of queer
artists art as a lens into,
into communities that may not
have always been included in our
theology or our scholarship.
(17:35):
And so I'm very excited about
that project which I'm
just wrapping up.
And I'm also started work on
a volume on queer and
trans ethics.
Thinking about ethics in a broad
perspective because so,
so much of the ethical
conversations have been about
sexual ethics or the ethics of
gender transition.
And these are important
questions.
But there's so much more about
(17:56):
how we create families,
how we look, live in the world,
how we understand ourselves
as ethical beings.
And so there's a little flurry
of writing on queer again,
lesbian ethics in the 90s and
some very specific
volumes recently.
But I'm really interested in how
do we look holistically at those
questions that really rises out
(18:17):
of questions my students
have asked in classes.
So I'm starting work on that.
Awesome
Great.
If people want to follow you,
are you on any particular social
media channels that are
your favorites?
I'm on Facebook and,
and Instagram and I'm just
got started on Blue sky.
Okay,
we'll put all your handles.
(18:38):
Handles underneath there.
I'm just barely on blue sky,
too, so let's like each other,
and
Yeah.
So I don't have any fancy
type fancy handles, but
that's fine. Yeah,
we'll put all those. So awesome.
Well, thank you so much.
Thank you for everything
you've done,
and this is such a pleasure,
from beginning to end.
Oh wonderful to talk to you,
Katy.
(18:59):
Thank you so much for listening
to this first full length
episode of transbiblical.
It is our pleasure to bring it
to you if you are wanting to
dive deeper into this topic.
Of course,
the link to buy the book is
below and you have your
40% off discount.
That's good through May 10,
2025.
If you'd like to support the
podcast in other ways,
there's a little link to buy a
(19:19):
cup of coffee for the creators.
It just helps offset some of
and the time that goes into
producing this. Most of all,
we want you to live your most
authentic full life.
If you are gender variant,
gender diverse,
trans non binary,
know that you are supported and
this podcast is one small way
that we are offering
some support.
(19:40):
Let us hear from you and see
you in the next episode.
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