David Jenyns

Rachel and David Jenyns talk about the importance of systemising your business so it can run like clockwork even when you're not there to run it!

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hi there, this is Rachel Stone
introducing transform your
leadership, all elements of
leadership, but especially
transformational leadership,
which includes learning to be
a coach when you're a leader.
All coaches are leaders, but
not all leaders are coaches.
And my mission is
to help solve that.
I hope you enjoy.
Thank you very much indeed

(00:20):
for joining me, David.
You're a serial entrepreneur
and you've been an
expert in the franchising
world for over 20 years.
Could you tell us what it is that
you've done and how you've helped
so many other businesses to get
the system driving the business.
After my last business, which
was a digital agency where I
got trapped into the day-to-day
operations for probably about the
better part of 10 years before

(00:41):
I really stepped out of it,
systemized it, and got a leadership
team in place to really run it.
So going through that process
is when I realized, hey,
I'm onto something here.
I've got a little bit of a
process and I'd fallen out
of love with my previous
business, the digital agency.
And when I stepped away from
the business, I thought,
what do I really want to do?
And that's when I rediscovered

(01:02):
my passion for systems and
processes and sharing that
with other business owners.
So that's what I stepped into
and captured and developed
a method called systemology,
a process taking someone.
From not having any systems
or a systems culture, in place
to a point where the business
runs smoothly, it's systems
driven, and the team reaches a

(01:23):
point where they just say, Hey,
this is how we do things here.
I think you've been quite modest
there because you've spent quite
a bit of time working with the
fantastic Michael Gerber and
in his work the E Myth, which
all very successful business
owners will be familiar with.
And if anybody out there has not
actually read that book and hasn't
read David's book, then please
do get on board with driving
your business through systems.

(01:43):
So tell us a little
bit about that as well.
'cause that must have
been so powerful for you.
Yeah, it was a fantastic
moment in time for me.
It was just towards the end
of that digital agency and
I was thinking about what
I was gonna work on next.
I had a completely fortuitous
series of events that led me
to Michael Gerber and his wife
reached out to me and asked me
if I could work on a project with

(02:04):
him, which I was only too happy to.
Fortunately at that point I'd got
my business to the point where
I was able to step away from it.
So I took three months out
and really devoted some time
into helping Michael launch
the last book in his E-Myth
series called Beyond the E-Myth.
And it was just a great opportunity
to work quite closely with him.
Obviously his work had already
very heavily influenced mine

(02:26):
and the way that I think about
business and run business, and it
was just a little bit of magical
dream experience where I got to
work with him and learned a lot of
valuable lessons going through that
process around what does it take
to build a business that really
touches the lives and hearts of
business owners around the world.
And I took a lot of that and
rolled it into Systemology.

(02:46):
In many ways see Systemology as
the how to guide for the E-Myth.
I think the E-Myth talks a
lot about why systems are
important and gets a lot of
that foundation in place, helps
business owners find their dream,
vision, purpose, and mission.
That's a big part
of Michael's work.
A lot of business owners
and where I had felt like I
got stuck for a little while
was but how do I do it?

(03:07):
Where do I start?
What are the first few
systems I document?
Where do I store that?
How do I get the team on board?
All those types of questions
I didn't feel I had the
answer to when I got started.
So I really wrote the book
that I wish I had when
I was getting started.
I absolutely love that because
when I read your book, it felt like
somebody had pulled the curtains
across from where I was sitting in

(03:28):
a room with the curtains closed.
And I'd worked with a lot
of businesses at this point
and I'd understood that the
systems were really important.
But what I didn't have
was a thing I could go to.
And as I was reading your book and
then I listened to it on audio,
it felt like ah, this is exactly.
What we need in order to do
what we know we need to do.
And it's also such a great read.
It's quite funny in places.

(03:49):
It's really good fun, but
it's so accessible and
that's what I love about it.
I had it recommended to me and
I recommended it to many people.
And we've been through the
process several times and
it's been such a great journey
because if you get stuck, you
know exactly where to look,
and it's structured so easily.
And I think obviously that's how
your mind works, that you've got
a systems driven mind that, we go

(04:10):
from A to B and what I've often
noticed in businesses they, know
that they want to change things and
they try to do AC this is where we
are, this is where we need to be.
But actually you can't do that.
And what comes out very clearly
in your book is we start here.
We document what's actually
happening and then look to
try to make that better.

(04:31):
And I think the hardest thing when
I'm coaching on this is to explain
to people that you have to have
that messy bit first, the hard,
horrible bit at the beginning
where you do examine exactly what
is happening in your business and
then you look to improving it.
So would you mind just telling
us in a nutshell, where is
the best place to start with
systemizing your business?
Yes.
You've hit on a few real key

(04:52):
points there around capturing
what you're currently doing,
not what you'd like to be doing.
Because the reality is a lot
of small business can get
tremendous wins just by taking
what they're currently doing
and making it repeatable.
A lot of small business just simply
isn't repeatable in that it is
very heavily key person dependent.
And if the business owner isn't

(05:12):
there, or maybe a key team
member isn't there, then the
business isn't able to deliver
that task or that function.
So with that in mind, just
capturing what you're currently
doing and making it repeatable.
Making that the baseline from
which we work on gets a huge win.
To answer the question where
do you actually get started?
What do your document first?
I think what is the
business here to do?

(05:33):
The business needs to deliver
value to the client, we get
rewarded for delivering value.
So we focus first there.
We think about how does the
business attract in new clients
into their business, how do
they handle those inquiries?
How do they convert those
inquiries into sales and close
them and get them to purchase?
How do they onboard that

(05:54):
client into the business and
deliver the product or service?
And then how do we
hand it back to them?
And make sure that the
client's happy and then they
look to refer and repeat.
It's that linear journey.
I call it the critical client flow,
and it's about first capturing and
identifying that linear journey,
just like you talked about with
Systemology, feeling like it

(06:14):
was a system and an approach.
That's just the way that I
look at business as well.
I think the business is here
to deliver value, so what is
the linear journey it has to go
through to deliver that value?
And if we can capture that
and make that repeatable,
you can go the step further.
Because sometimes what we
went through there can uncover
a whole handful of systems.
The next question to ask sometime
is where within that critical

(06:36):
client flow is the pain, as
in where is something that
you avoid or that you know is
broken intuitively, or if we
got 10 clients tomorrow, this
is the first thing that breaks.
We can't handle the
incoming inquiry.
We can't handle the onboarding.
And sometimes by using that
method, you're able to narrow
in further on really what

(06:57):
is the biggest constraint
for the business right now.
And you go to work on
that piece first by just
capturing what you're doing.
I.
It's interesting because
quite often businesses go
for coaching and they're
in urgent to grow sales.
And actually that can sometimes
be the worst thing that happens.
You can't grow a broken thing.
And if there are these cracks
inside the systems and processes.

(07:19):
By having more customers
only to disappoint them then
damages your reputation.
So I think it's really important to
capture what's actually happening
and then making sure that is robust
and that could experience growth.
So I really understand what
you've just said there.
Opening a can of worms, I
mean, pulling the curtains
out and having a look in.
I remember once, a long time
ago, back in 2012, I just started

(07:39):
my first coaching business,
and I went to buy a sign to
stick on the side of my car.
As I was driving around, I thought,
oh, I could advertise on there.
I went into pick it up and pay,
and the guy said, oh, you can't
pay because she's not here.
The girl that does the
invoicing is not here.
I said, oh, do I get
it for free then?
But it just illustrates that point.
If a key person is not there,
how can the business function?

(07:59):
And I laughed to myself 'cause
I thought I can't pay for it.
I might as well have it for free.
But he does illustrate that.
So you identify this critical
path of the flow for the customer,
starting with the customer first.
So we put the customer at
the heart of the business.
How do you manage that, because
obviously there's a lot of people
involved, so in the book you
talk about the product champion,

(08:19):
the champion of the systems.
Can you tell me a bit about that?
The business owner, generally
speaking, is busy and they're
wearing many hats and they
recognize that systems are
important, but there are a lot
of other things that are more
urgent or seemingly more urgent.
So systems very rarely for the
small business owner is a high
priority, and because there's

(08:41):
an infinite number of things
the business owner can be doing.
It always just remains on the
to-do list and it never gets done.
And that's a big part of why
the business owner gets trapped
and they need someone to really
support them through this.
The business owner still needs
to lead this, but we have a role
we call the systems' champion.
When the systems' champion's role.
Is to keep systems front and

(09:02):
center to continuously move this
forward, to work with team members,
knowledgeable workers who know
how to do parts of the business to
capture what they're doing because
not only is the business owner
busy, depending on the size of the
team, generally, all of your best
team members are busy as well.
And trying to pull them away from
their day-to-day tasks to try and

(09:24):
get them to document process again.
They have the same problem that
the business owner has, which
is I'll put it on my to-do
list, but they never get to it.
So the systems champion is that
real key linchpin to try and
build up enough momentum and
stick with this long enough,
because that's the other thing:
the efforts that you put into
systemization, the payoff isn't

(09:45):
immediate in that sometimes it
takes time and it's when you
stack the little wins, you save
a little bit of time there, you
reduce some errors here, you start
to get that compounding benefit
that comes from systemization
and it might not get felt until
6, 9, 12 months down the track.
And if a business owner just

(10:05):
tries for a week or a month
and goes, oh yes, we tried to
systemize and it didn't really
work for us, now we're just back
to the way that things were.
The systems champion becomes
a way to overcome that because
it's part of their role, it's
part of their responsibility.
They help to build the
system's culture, they talk
about it on team meetings.
They share it in your

(10:25):
project management platform.
They celebrate when someone
creates or follows a system, and
they start to plant some early
evidence inside the organization
that systems are important and
this is how we do things here.
So 98% off the successful
businesses that we work with
identify a systems champion.

(10:45):
I think there's very rare
exception where the business
owner really drives it forward,
but generally speaking, they've
got that systems champion role.
I can speak from experience
there because I was coaching a
customer new to Systemology at
the time, and I made myself that
person within their business
whilst I was coaching them.
And I know the experience
that they go through and that

(11:06):
really pushed their business
forward once everything was
settled in and embedded in.
Now they've appointed
somebody and it's a constant
focus for the business.
Can we do this more effectively.
And also is everybody on board,
in terms of how we do things here.
I really love that phrase and
I always like to think, very
famous quote, the system drives
a business, but it's the people
that drive the system and it's

(11:26):
about getting the people on board
and any system is only as good
as the people that are using it.
So therefore you've gotta have
that culture where there's
an appointed person who is
responsible for the overall
culture of driving this business
through systems and it does work.
I've absolutely seen So I
really am a big advocate.
And the reason I really wanted
to talk to you is because I see

(11:46):
this very much in alignment with
leadership because, if we've
got this system that drives the
business, then trundling along
in parallel is how do we build
a culture in leadership to have
the people driving the system,
they've got to believe in it
in order for it to work well.
and I can imagine, back in the day,
in the eighties, we would've called
people who liked to do things
their own way, who were resistant

(12:07):
to change and who didn't want to
get on board with something new.
We would've called them dinosaurs.
This is how I do it.
And some people have 25 years.
Experience and some people
have one year, 25 times.
Now what we need in a systems
culture is people who are prepared
to grow, iterate, build, evolve,
enhance all of those things.
Now, how do you see the role

(12:27):
of a leader with getting
people on board with this?
What have you seen work in
organizations that you know of?
I love the way that you are really
involving the leadership team here.
That was something Michael
Gerber had said to me after
I wrote the Systemology book.
He said, Dave, my only
bit of advice for you on
this book is don't let the
business owner off the hook.
You make the process sound like

(12:49):
it's the systems champion's
job and the business owner
does nothing when really.
The business owner first needs
to fall in love with the idea and
realize that this is the only way
to build a profitable, scalable
business that grows beyond them.
So once they have that
insight, then it makes it
easier for them to lead it.
They need to
demonstrate by example.

(13:09):
They need to put
resources behind this.
By hiring a systems champion,
you are sending a clear message
to the team that this is
important, we value it, we're
gonna put time and resources
behind it to make it happen.
We are going to devote time on
team meetings to talk about it.
And the business owner,
when they're working within
the business, shouldn't
operate above the law.

(13:29):
Sometimes if they're off to
the side and, maybe they're
working with their executive
assistant or they've got some
dedicated team members that work
off the side on new projects.
They can operate in whatever method
that they want, but when working
within the business in engaging
other team members, there needs to
be following a certain structure.

(13:50):
Which again, I learned that
one from Michael Gerber, who
many see as the godfather
small business systems, but
he's a very creative mind.
He's surrounded himself with
systems driven thinkers that have
a process and that follow things.
I found it enlightening and
refreshing to know that's not
necessarily how he always operates.
There's a level of, when he's

(14:11):
working on projects, there's
that disorganized, creative,
let the brain run wild.
And then depending on when
he is engaging with the team,
there's different process on
the way that things are handled.
Just something to keep in
mind, just because the business
owner might not think that
they are a systems person, that
doesn't mean that they can't
own a systems driven business.

(14:32):
And quite often, the founder
is a creative visionary.
And it's not necessarily
a strong suit for them.
That's quite common.
Ideally when recruiting, you don't
want too many visionaries in a
business because there's too much
dreaming and not enough doing . The
business owner can be that way,
but when it comes to the leadership
team, you want to be finding
organized, structured thinking,

(14:53):
project managers or department
heads who can really champion
this inside their teams as well.
Having them.
Be involved in systems creation
and thinking and helping to teach
team members that this is how
you move up in the organization.
The way you move up is to capture
what you're doing, systemize it and
delegate it down to typically less

(15:13):
skilled, lower cost team members
to free up the higher skilled team
members to work on the highest
value tasks, which typically
don't have process yet in place.
Your best team members should be
working on the tasks that don't
yet have process, because they
need to make up the process and
invent the process as they go.
I also hear you on that because
I think the most important

(15:34):
thing a really excellent worker
when they're not there, does
everything fall down a bit like
the lady with the invoicing
and I couldn't pay for my sign.
Building, the mindset that the
business is only robust when
those key people are there.
It's a bit like that famous story,
and I can't remember who told it,
where the orchestra was playing.
The conductor was all well
lit. It was in a theater,

(15:54):
very prestigious event.
The lights went out, but
actually when the lights went
out, the orchestra carried on
playing because they've got
this well rehearsed process
for creating the sound.
And they didn't need to
see the conductor even
though he was pivotal.
So they just carried on performing
at their peak, even though
the conductor wasn't visible.
And I see that in a business
that you build the culture

(16:15):
around valuing that.
when you are not there,
how will this get done?
It can't be reliant on me.
And people who are new to
leadership often think, I
can give you the answer.
In actual fact, a much better mark
of how good you are as a leader is
what happens when you aren't there.
Can people function?
It's about progression planning,
it's about autonomy and
giving people that expertise

(16:35):
that they can step up.
And I think systems leads
nicely to developing people
because you, automate the things
that are routine and you make
everything exceptional that
is not able to be systemized.
So you've got your exceptional
people and your robust
systems and building it into
the way that people think
takes great leadership.
So you've got your great
systems and you've got your

(16:56):
great leaders, and I see that
there's a perfect marriage
there of how things get done.
And also ultimately, some
people's end goal is to step
away from their business,
pass it onto a family member,
or to sell it or to copy it.
And you can only do that and grow
that way if it doesn't rely on you.
I think you hit the
nail on the head there,
that's a hundred percent.
And a lot of business owners,

(17:17):
myself included, they're helpers
and they love to get in there
and solve people's problems.
And sometimes that ends up holding
them in the business and it ends
up being a little bit of a trap
because while that often helps them
get the business off the ground
and up and running because they're
servicing clients and they've got
a particular standard which they

(17:38):
want to uphold, and they hold
their team to it, and when it's not
upheld, they'll step in and do it.
But the only issue is that ends
up becoming the trap because you
are forever stuck in it and you're
training your team to come to you
whenever they've got a problem.
And you'll be the knight in
shining armor who solves it.
And you train clients to come to
you when they've got a problem

(17:58):
and you end up being the center
cog and bottleneck when really,
as you rightly said, the key here
is to train up team members that
can problem solve themselves.
And they have a default way
in which they solve a problem.
They first go to where your
systems and your processes
are stored, and they try and
solve their own problem first.

(18:18):
And they see is it
covered in the systems?
Can I get the answer
from there first?
That's really what
you want to train.
And then beyond that, some
critical thinking, as you
said, with great team members.
Then it's okay, maybe we have
a process for the way that we
debug situations or when things
don't follow the process exactly.
Generally speaking, we say the
system and the process doesn't

(18:39):
capture every possible variation.
Generally it captures the most
likely, the most probable.
That's where you start first,
and then exceptions are handled
by the great team members.
And then everything else gets
handled by the junior team members
when they can follow the process.
I think people sometimes like
to feel a bit indispensable

(18:59):
because they attach their
worth to that, and I don't
think that's a healthy culture.
It's nice to have a helpful
member of staff, but not to have
a member of staff that thinks that
everything must come to them and
it makes them feel a sense of self
importance that they'll come to
me with their problems as much as
it's lovely to have helpful people.
What we don't want is to
build up a little empire.
Where, oh, we can't do that.

(19:20):
'cause Brendan's not in today.
It's not a healthy culture.
Rachel can't pay for her sign
because Sally's not here that's
just not a way to grow a business.
I'm really drawn to this
because I think I've got quite
a systematic way of thinking.
And then I think at the end of that
is that at the cost of creativity,
and I think you've covered that
quite quietly, but I can hear in
the back of my mind people saying,
all systems stifle creativity.

(19:42):
And what would you say to that?
I say that it releases creativity.
You hinted at it a little bit
earlier in the interview, but the
whole idea is if we systemize the
routine things that must happen.
There are certain parts of
business that need to happen.
You will need to generate leads.
You will need to
convert those leads.
You will need to invoice and

(20:03):
onboard and deliver, and there
might be recruitment processes to
hire new staff and get them into
the system management and finance.
There are certain things in
business that just need to
happen and they need to happen
on a certain cadence every
two weeks you will have to
pay your staff and it needs
to happen in a particular way.
Okay.
So we have a process for the

(20:24):
way that wages are done, letting
the systems take care of those
scenarios ends up creating
the space then for your team
members to be creative when
they need to be creative.
Because to be creative, your
brain needs room to move.
And if it's caught up and thinking
about all the little things that
it needs to be on top of, because

(20:44):
the system's not handling it, it
leaves no space for creativity.
If we systemize the routine
that creates the space and then
allows your best team members
to do some of their best work.
That's been fantastic, thank
you so much for taking time
to come out to talk to me.
I'm a huge fan and I would
urge anybody who's looking
to grow their business to
think about systems first.

(21:04):
Always look to your system
first, and then the people.
Can we correct the system?
And from a leadership
point of view, do your
staff need to be developed?
Thank you.
An absolute pleasure.
Thank you.