Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, welcome to
Trauma Talks.
My name is Russ Tellup.
I am your host.
Today we are talking to NatJovanovic.
Nat is a trauma therapist andthe owner of
BrightHorizonsTherapiescom.
Let me correct that it'sBrightHorizonTherapiescom.
She is also the host of TraumaDemystified, a podcast all about
trauma.
She works in EMDR parts work,polyvagal systemic constellation
(00:22):
man, you name it, and she'sinto it.
So let's get right into it andwe'll see you guys after.
Thanks, welcome to Trauma Talks.
My name is Russ.
I'm the host.
Today we have Nat Jovanovic.
Is it my spelling?
(00:42):
Am I pronouncing that correctly?
It's Jovanovic, but it's okayJovanovic.
Is it my spelling?
Am I pronouncing that correctly?
It's Jovanovic, but it's okay,jovanovic.
Okay, cool, she is the owner ofBright Horizons Therapies and
she is a trauma therapist.
Nat, why don't you tell us yourstory, kind of how you got into
the space and take it away?
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Sure, I became a
trauma therapist mainly due to
my own recovery journey fromchildhood abuse.
I have experienced all forms ofchildhood abuse so I started a
very intense healing journeywhen I was in my mid thirties
and so at this stage of my lifeI was living in Spain, so I'm
originally German creation and Inow live in Canada.
(01:21):
So I really went into like howcan I heal from it and how can I
become healthy?
I think my main motivation washow can I create healthy
relationships?
And like I had symptoms likeself-injury.
It was really like when theconflict got too intense I would
dissociate so many elementswhere I was fairly functional
(01:42):
and there were elements where Ireally had all the symptoms of
trauma, like a dysregulatednervous system, like my nervous
system tended to go far more inhypoarousal and it's still my
preferred state.
So on my healing journey Ireally learned the different
tools and I was lucky enough atone stage to really find
trauma-focused professionalswhich and this was in Spain like
(02:04):
I was always skeptical abouttherapy, mainly because in my
family it was really stigmatized, like you're crazy if you go to
therapy, and also, on the otherhand, there were parts of me
that really didn't believe thathealing was possible and I had
no framework how my healinglooked like.
So because I was so used todifferent forms of abuse so it
(02:25):
was hard to imagine how does ahealthy work look like?
And so this kind of influencedme and it took a while for me
until I had the courage to startmy healing and I had a couple
of therapists who were reallypathologizing and it didn't work
for me and at one stage I foundthose who were really helpful,
who were aware how to navigatetheir power and also not
(02:46):
pathologizing my symptoms butreally also seeing my strength
and helping me to find healthier, adjusted skills to go through
conflict.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Sure, now, when you
say there was some stigma around
therapy, was that you said youwere German descent.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Was that a cultural
thing, or is that more just
within your family?
Speaker 2 (03:08):
I don't know.
I think to some degree.
I think it's still cultural.
I would say even here in canadathere are certain cultural
aspects.
In my own experience at thisstage, this was more my family,
so like there was a lot ofstigma around it and my parents.
They both lived through thesecond world war so they had
their own trauma that theydidn't look at.
So there was like things goingon that at this stage I didn't
(03:31):
fully understand.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
But my primarily
influence was my family and I
assume, their own fear to lookat what has happened to them
right, and you grew up in spain,or you grew up in Spain, or you
grew up in Germany and thenmoved to Spain later.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
I grew up in Germany.
My father has Croatian roots.
My mother was fully German, myfamily dynamics were really
complicated, like my parentsseparated, but they were really
united in hatred.
My mother was discriminativeagainst my father and so he was
(04:07):
violent with her, so my fatherhad really violent behavior.
My mother was more onsubmissive, not doing anything,
and she later remarried and thismy stepfather was physically
violent, mainly with my sibling,but for me it was a constant
threat of physical violence andso I had.
My coping skill was to freeze.
My sibling's coping skill wasto go into a fight response, I
(04:29):
think.
Like to some degree I think itwas helpful for me to freeze
because there was less trouble,but later on in life it got
really complicated becauselearning to stand up and be
assertive was a journey sure.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
So when you were
going through your, your
different healing modalities, asyou were kind of tackling these
things, what did you findhelped you most?
Speaker 2 (04:50):
I did a lot of the
combination of parts work
therapy, like with a somaticapproach.
Like when I speak from partswork therapy, it always needs to
integrate the body.
So I worked with a mortalitywhich is called systemic
constellation in Spain.
So I worked with a mortalitywhich is called systemic
constellation in Spain.
I now can see elements of IFS.
You know, now that I learnedabout IFS, I can see that there
(05:12):
are similarities and differences.
So constellation work goesreally deep down into your body
and it's like you can work withthese dynamics and really
process the emotions.
Then I did a lot of thingsaround coaching.
I found coaching helpfulbecause it was less
pathologizing than traditionaltalk therapy.
Yeah, so things likeassertiveness, my values,
(05:36):
setting healthy boundaries Ireally got it from a more
coaching style, though I alsoneed to say coaching for me was
a lot of around doing parts work, though I also need to say
coaching for me was a lot ofaround doing parts work, and so
I think for me mainly it wasparts work, working with my
emotions, but also skillbuilding.
How can I be assertive, how canI be in my body when somebody
is in conflict with me?
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
How long ago did you
start your healing journey?
Speaker 1 (06:09):
If I look back now,
let me check, I think probably
about 18 years ago.
Okay, and how long have youbeen coaching and a therapist
yourself?
Speaker 2 (06:16):
11 years ago, like I
now do this type of work since
11 years.
Okay.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
So that's a great
segue, because it sounds like
you do quite a bit of stuff.
Emdr, parts work, polyvagal.
Can you speak to some of thedifferent modalities that you've
learned over the course of thelast 10 years or so and what you
value from each?
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Yes, okay, here's the
thing.
I think we need to be mindfulthat working with trauma is a
bit different than generic talktherapy.
So the first phase of traumatreatment is stabilization and
inner safety, and so, dependingon the modalities, so I find, in
this stage, parts work therapyand polyvagal approach really
useful, because people need tolearn on, recognize the states
(07:00):
of the nervous system and findtools on how they can go back
into their window of tolerance.
And I find that parts work andputting out the different parts
can really help us to connectwith our inner self.
And so when we go throughtrauma, what can happen is that
we feel more fragmented indifferent parts.
So I was really fragmented andso for me, the concept of parts
(07:21):
made a lot of sense.
And so being able to talk toparts is now what I do with
clients in the stabilization andsafety phase and it's really to
some degree it may also look atthe relationships in their
lives.
What is the level of health intheir relationships Like, for
example, we don't do intensetrauma work in general, if
somebody is right now in anunsafe situation because
(07:44):
bringing all that up wouldn't besafe for them, so first step is
really, I would say, workingwith the nervous system, working
with the connection with one'sbody, but also start to connect
with one's inner parts andunderstand oneself better and
understand when maybe one goesinto a trauma response, but also
understand what might be copingskills to work with that.
(08:06):
And then I use EMDR on atrauma-informed model.
So it really aligns a lot withparts work because you need to
have a preparation phase.
But I mainly use the iMovementpart of EMDR to integrate
traumatic experiences and inthis stage the individual needs
to have a certain degree ofawareness of the state of the
(08:26):
nervous system and the capacityto go back into their window of
tolerance if they dysregulate.
So, for example, if somebodyhas experienced an accident, it
might be far quicker to workwith EMDR if they have already
the capacity to be in theirwindow of tolerance.
If somebody has a lot ofsymptoms of dissociations, we
(08:48):
first need to work with theparts that dissociate and
understand them better before wecan move forward into memory
integration with EMDR.
I also use EMDR and parts forcombined so we can work with a
part that has intense emotions.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
We don't need to go
to the past okay, so you will
access the part and then do emdrwith the part.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Yes, oh, okay, that's
very interesting yes, so it may
not fully resolve all theimpact of the memory, but it may
, in the moment, give a lot ofrelief for the part, so that the
part can release anger, thatthe part can release sadness.
However, we can only do it ifthe client is in dual awareness,
(09:32):
so they need to be connected intheir body and in the present
moment to be able to get thepart and work with it.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
So for those because
I'm sure there's going to be a
lot of people listening thataren't familiar with parts work
or EMDR, could you just, at ahigh level, explain what EMDR is
, how that works and then how itrelates to the parts work?
Piece.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Yes, okay, emdr is
known for the bilateral eye
movements to integrate traumaticmemory.
So in the end, we would workwith the memory directly.
I think what is not very oftentalked about.
Even EMDR has a preparationphase, and so this is a bit like
where I think parts work andEMDR connects.
And so in an EMDR session Iwould ask a client, like we
(10:19):
would have a list of the worstthings that happened to them and
we would then start workingwith the memories.
We would install them, like wewould install the memory and the
negative, the beliefs they havelearned about themselves.
We look, would look for apositive belief, and then we
would really allow the personthe space to integrate the
memory, go through their bodysensations while we do the
(10:40):
different EMDR sets.
So an EMDR set is that theclient focus on the memory and
what comes up for them and Imove my fingers and they follow
my fingers with their eyes, andso there is no right or wrong
way to do it, and I thinksometimes clients get a bit
scared because whatever shows upis right.
What needs to show up for themin the moment, however, it's
(11:03):
really very individual, and then, like we would work with that
until the emotional intensity iszero, and then we would install
the positive belief, and thenwe would just do a final body
scan to see whether everythingis integrated and so you're
doing a little bit of uh neurolinguistic programming in there
as well like the standard emDRprocess.
(11:24):
Yes, like in EMDR you alwayshave in a final phase where you
install the positive belief onthe memory that has happened to
the individual.
Like, for example, if I'velearned I'm unlovable, like the
belief needs to resonate withthe client, but like I could
install a belief like I'mlovable, I'm worthy, I'm okay as
I am, and like personally andmaybe that's easy like I used a
(11:45):
lot of EMDR to work onexperiences of systemic violence
, and so the belief that came upfor me was just like I'm OK as
I am, and that gave me a lot offreedom to just do my own like
live my own life.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Now you mentioned
systemic consolation.
Can you, can you explain alittle bit what that means?
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Yes, systemic consol
constellation is something that
was introduced by a Germanperson who's called Bert
Hellinger.
It is a little bit of acombination between parts work.
It's based on some pseudopractices.
So you can do systemicconstellation and individual
counseling with just the person.
(12:26):
So it's a bit like externalizethe different parts and go into
the position of the differentparts and feel how it feels in
your body.
And you can do systemicconstellation in a huge group
setting where you userepresentative to represent
different aspects of your family, different aspects of your
inner world, and so a lot ofwhat comes up in systemic
(12:47):
constellation is related to in achild's work.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
So when I did my
systemic constellation we also
did a lot of inner child workokay, okay, and it sounds like
all of this kind of ties intopolyvagal theory as well yes,
like it is all about how tocreate safety and connection.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
a lot of I think of
about recovery, which is part of
parts work, which is part ofemdr, is also using our
imagination to really createmore safety, um, to really
create also positive pictures,because if you have experienced
trauma, our mind tends to go toworst case scenarios and and
worst case pictures and so wecan retrain us on.
(13:29):
How can we maybe give us abreak and, for a couple of
seconds, look at a positivepicture?
Does this make sense?
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Yeah, it does, so I'm
just going to try to recap.
So, when it comes to parts work, essentially what we're talking
about is when someoneexperiences a trauma whether
that be a childhood trauma or anaccident, like you say there's
a fragment right, the true selfbecomes fragmented, and then we
(13:56):
have an exile wound that is overhere that you're trying to
protect your true self from, andthat's where these parts come
in as firefighters and protectorparts.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Yes, true self from,
and that's where these parts
come in as firefighters andprotector parts.
Yes, like I think, when traumahappens, what usually what
happens is that we maydisconnect from our core self
and then the parts take over.
So in general, we haveprotective parts and we have
wounded parts, and what oftenhappens is that we put the
wounded parts, or the exiles andifs, behind a wall and so they
stay there and we have thesevery rational parts that just
want to move forward with lifeand just cope with life and they
want to avoid the trauma.
(14:33):
Right, and so part of healingreally is on.
How can we create arelationship with all of the
different parts?
Because we can.
We cannot be our true self ifparts are excised and then over
time it's also like how can were-establish the connection with
the core self so that the selfcan have a relationship with the
parts?
Speaker 1 (14:55):
yeah, and then, and
another big big part of it is
that, no matter what those partsare doing, there is no such
thing as a bad part, rightthey're, they're all parts of us
, they're all trying to do a joband they're doing the best they
can with what they have right.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Yes, like I sometimes
tell clients because they may
have parts that go into a fightresponse, so they may have
behavior that is socially notaccepted, and so I say clients,
like, can you please like removethe intention of the part from
their behavior?
Because the intention of thepart is to protect the clients
from something that is aboundary violation, from
something that is a really hugeconflict.
(15:32):
And so this really helps us tohave a more gentle or
compassionate view on the partand really understanding what
was the intention of the partand having a conversation with
the part like what can we dodifferently or how can I protect
you better?
Like, if I have an angryquestion is okay.
What do you want to tell me,what boundaries violated for you
(15:53):
and how can I take care of thisboundary?
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Yeah, kind of almost
relieving them of of the duty
that they've been holding downfor so long, right.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
And then when you
work EMDR in in there,
essentially you've got bilateraleye movement, so you're moving
eyes back and forth, accessingtraumatic memories, and then
time stamping those memoriesright so that, so that the mind
can realize that they're in thepast and no longer a threat yes,
okay, and it's time stamping,but I but I think it helps us to
(16:27):
release the emotions that arestuck in our body.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
So if trauma happens,
some emotions are unprocessed
and stuck in our body and sowith EMDR a person can really
process the emotions that theyweren't able to express in the
moment timeline.
So they may see for example,some clients have experienced
sexual abuse when they wereyoung but they also see how has
(16:50):
it impacted throughout theirlifetime and they can make more
sense out of their story.
So it's not necessarily onlyworking with the one specific
memory, it's more like thememory and the impact it had on
them, on their lifetime.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
I was doing lifetime
I was doing I gotta be careful
of how I described this Cause itwas with a client.
I won't obviously say theirname, but I was working with a
client who had a protector partthat was addicted to sugar.
It was this part that was justjust needed constant sugar.
So when we were talking to thisperson, um, she identified this
(17:29):
part as a dark figure.
Um, a figure that was kind ofmaleficent, kind of kind of uh,
negative, negative and kind offrightening and scary.
Um, and essentially all we didwas she identified the part, she
thanked the part for all thework that they had been doing
and then asked the part if theyknew how old she was, and, and
(17:53):
the part said yes, and thenasked if they would mind if they
took over, and, and when theydid that, the part step, step
back and then her child, herinner child, was there and she
got to interact with her little,with her little little self and
her inner child, and it was oneof the most impactful, most
(18:13):
powerful coaching sessions I'veever witnessed.
It was amazing, absolutelyamazing.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Yeah, like it is
amazing and it like I find parts
were very effective and also Ithink it is a very respectful
way to work with our past, butalso very respectful because in
the end, the client has thepower.
Like for me, if there is a partthat is protective, it's really
how can we talk to it and finda way that it steps down but
(18:38):
really respect their concerns,respect what comes up and
respect their pacing.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's one of those majorlytransformational modalities
that if if you guys have everconsidered working in parts work
, it is.
It is something else.
Now you've got quite a bit ofexperience in polyvagal theory
and somatic coaching as well.
Could you talk about that alittle bit?
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Yes, okay, I use it a
lot to explain people on how
trauma affects our autonomicnervous system.
So in polyvagal theory it'slike a letter.
So are either in the state ofsafety and connection, or we are
in the state of mobilization,which is fight and flight, or we
are in the state ofimmobilization, where we are in
freeze, or we are in the stateof immobilization where we are
(19:27):
in freeze, fawn or fault, and sothe thing what we need to
understand is if there is aqueue of danger, we first go
into fight and flight, and if wecan't sustain it, we go into
immobilization.
And every person is different,so we may have very different
responses.
What's important to understandwe need to if you go the letter
down, we also need to go it up.
(19:48):
So I often tell my clients ifyou are in immobilization, you
need a little bit of fight andflight to get out of it, because
otherwise it's hard to get outof it.
And so sometimes I'm reallyalso noticing that those extreme
fight parts that are often verymuch judged they help the
client to get out ofimmobilization, and so I use
this model to create awarenesswithin the client about their
(20:10):
state, so I really guide themthrough an experience where they
can notice oh, this is how itfeels in me, oh, this is how
this one feels in me.
And then safety and connectionoh, they now know how it feels
in their bodies, and this helpsus to just recognize the
different parts, like I still, Isee the different states then
again as parts so that we canwork with them.
But first a person needs torecognize in the body what state
(20:34):
they're in, otherwise we can'twork with it, and so it is
usually when I work withpolyvagal informed therapy, it's
more like creating awarenessabout the state but then also
finding practices.
And how can they get back tosafety and connection, and I'm
aware that people haveexperienced complex trauma.
Safety and connection may be astate that is hardly ever
(20:55):
accessible.
So really, how can we increasethe experiences of safety and
connection?
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Yeah, one of the
things I do with clients when
we're doing kind of ourdiscovery and when we're getting
to know each other and gettingto know ourselves frankly right
is I'll have them do a nervoussystem mapping, so they'll sit
down and they'll start writingout what triggers will trigger
them into a fight or flight,what triggers will trigger them
even further down into a freezemode or freeze state, and then,
(21:24):
with some positive psychologyeducation, we kind of go through
all that stuff and we getreally get to know our nervous
system a lot better.
And when you know how thosestates feel you, it makes it
makes things make sense a lotmore and and you're able to be a
lot more compassionate withyourself.
I think too.
And you know, when you're stuckin that free state you can't
(21:44):
get off the couch and every timeyou want to go work out, you
freak out because the last thingyou want to do is get that
sympathetic energy up because itjust doesn't feel safe.
But one of the parts of thatmapping is they'll identify,
based on a percentage, how muchof their life they're spending
in each of those states.
And the first time that I didit I was blown away because I
(22:06):
was like 60% of the time infreeze, like 30% of the time in
fight flight and like 10% of thetime in a safe, connected space
, and it's amazing how much timewe don't spend safe, connected
and present.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
No, I agree.
Like I was very much inimmobilized state for a long,
long time and safety andconnection was hardly ever
accessible, and so it is ajourney to get there.
Like I really want us invitepeople to have patience with it.
I think, if you understand whatstate we are in, it's less
crazy making because I thinkimmobilization can feel.
(22:43):
So crazy making because nothingseems to happen.
But like now I just normalizedto myself okay, just a state,
and honestly the last thing Iwant to do is to move.
But I also know the mosteffective thing for myself to
get out of it is dancing.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
So it's really yeah
pushing me out.
Answer.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
I'm not a dancer.
I'm very awkward just using andsaying just enjoy dancing yes,
like, I'm like, I enjoy it.
I'm not, I'm really awkward,like, but on the other hand, I
know it's.
It's really so good to get meout of immobilization yeah, and
I really like, and then it'swhen I push me gently, okay, you
know what's best for you.
You know you don't want to doit but just like motivate
(23:23):
yourself to do a bit of it.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Well being polyvagal
informed.
I'm sure that you're aware ofhow humming or vibrations in the
throat can really pull you intothat connected space.
I'm the lead singer of a band,so that's one of the benefits
for me is, every time I'mrehearsing and practicing I'm
tonal, I'm vaguing, I am toningmy vagal nerve right Every time
(23:45):
I'm doing that.
So music is a huge, huge outletfor me and definitely keeps me
connected and present.
So do you have any go-topolyvagal kind of exercises that
you do with your clients tohelp them move through these
different states?
Speaker 2 (24:05):
I have certain
exercises where we really create
a list of what are activitiesthat bring you back to safety
and connection, what are peoplewho bring you back to safety and
connection, what are placesthat bring you back then, what
are memories?
So I sometimes use emdr toinstall those, those memories
that bring people back to safetyand connection, so that they
(24:26):
can really fully connect withthem.
Like I use a lot around, likealso memories that brought you
resilience, that can help you togo back to safety and
connection, and so you can usethe eye movement also to
increase the intensity of thesepositive memories.
So I often use this in Polyvegatheory.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Yeah, yeah, when
you're working with a client
from, let's say, start to finish, and obviously it's different
for everybody.
But how long is your typicaltime that you're spending with a
client from, let's say, startto finish, and obviously it's
different for everybody, but howlong is your typical time that
you're spending with a client,like hour-long sessions?
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Oh yes, like, my
sessions are normally like 60
minutes long, 55 to 60 minutes.
It may depend on what we do,also what's going on for the
client.
So I have some clients who haveexperienced complex trauma
where we may spend maybe 20minutes for more intense work
but then also a little bit oftime for more gentle work with
them, like like really findingthe right balance, like how much
(25:27):
of the time can we use for moreintense work and how much do we
maybe use also to organizedaily living?
And for some clients it's easyto have 60 minutes and do the
intense work.
So I like it's, there's noright or wrong way to do it.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
It's really about how
to be adjusted to the needs of
the client yeah, um, do youtypically work with clients for
long periods of time, multiplesessions, obviously, but I mean,
do you find yours, find thatyou're working with clients for
like years and years and years,or is this something where
they're seeing benefits prettyquickly?
Speaker 2 (26:00):
okay, here's the
thing.
Um, it really depends on whathas happened to the client,
since trauma comes in a lot ofintensity, like I sometimes work
with clients who have, who havethe idea I work with clients
who have really profound, severeum trauma lists.
So with these clients it may bea year long process, like it
may be longer, like two years,three years or even longer.
(26:23):
It may also end like, if aclient in the present is in a
situation where they are notfully safe, it's really
difficult to start doing thetrauma work.
They just do the work on howcan we get you in a safer
situation.
I have, for example, a clientwho had experienced a very toxic
workplace and trauma due to avery toxic workplace.
We had a process that was aboutfive months, so we did
(26:46):
stabilization and then we didthe EMDR and then it was
resolved and they later on toldme also they met the person who
had perpetuated the abusetowards them and and they didn't
have any emotional response atall and it was really easy for
them to be around them and theynever imagined that it would
ever be possible.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
Yeah, wow, yeah, and
that's something else to point
out is trauma.
I mean a lot of people whenthey think of trauma or
childhood trauma, they'rethinking of trauma from their
parents, but that could betrauma from school, trauma from
religion, trauma from otherfamily members, trauma from
people who aren't part of yourfamily, and then obviously
(27:29):
there's trauma as adults too,right?
Traumatic toxic relationships,work environments, all kinds of
different things that and youmentioned complex trauma a
couple of times some likecomplex PTSD.
Could you talk about whatcomplex PTSD versus just PTSD is
?
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Yeah, I give a high
level overview and I'm also like
, for me, complex trauma likethe diagnosis of PTSD is a
little bit different thancomplex trauma, like just
because diagnosing mean you fitin the diagnostic criteria.
For me, complex trauma hasusually an additional complexity
because it is related torelational trauma because or
developmental trauma, so tosomebody you trusted in and
(28:11):
betrayed you very deeply.
So it can be domestic violence,it can be childhood abuse, it
can be toxic workplaces, and soit is usually there is a part of
us that really lost trust inour relationships, that may also
lost a more global trust on,you know, in humanity in a way.
And so I think for me there isjust the aspect we need to work
(28:35):
with attachment and we need toalso be really mindful and
respect those parts where theboundaries have been so
extremely violated.
And so, yeah, like for me,complex trauma always means we
have a different level ofseverity just because we have
the impact of society on us.
Like complex trauma can happenalso when people live through
war, because they're just so ina yes on how we are affected by
(28:57):
it yeah, and, and something elseto note is trauma.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
You know you hear a
lot about big t, little t and in
my opinion there is no big t,little t.
Trauma is trauma is trauma.
You know it's.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
Whether your trauma
is from a car accident or going
to war, it's still trauma yes,and we need to be mindful like
we have trauma due to events andwe have trauma due to enduring
conditions, and I think enduringconditions erode us more over
time, like emotional abuse maynot be as identifiable as sexual
abuse, where it just erodes oursense of safety and our trust
(29:34):
in humanity over time and we areliving in a traumatic
environment.
So and this is a bit likecomplex trauma is usually if you
are part of a traumaticenvironment or violent
environment.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Yeah, I grew up in a
pretty violent home.
My father was pretty violentand other family members that
were pretty violent and abusiveabusive.
So I can definitely relate tothe complexity of of emotional
and and physical and sexual andI mean just about every type of
abuse you can think of, and itjust piles on and piles on, and
(30:08):
piles on and adds a lot ofdifferent layers yeah, like the
one thing I want to say.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Like trauma means
that it overwhelms our capacity
to integrate the emotionalexperience, and so it can happen
.
And this is a big t and small t.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
So trauma is really
what has happened to you and how
has it affected you, and itdoesn't matter what the event it
is really about, like how youexperienced it yeah, the somatic
experience, right, and yourinability to to cope with the
somatic experience, and it kindof leaves that imprint on us, on
your body and on your nervoussystem.
(30:42):
Yeah, yeah, uh, nat.
If they wanted to work with you, how would they reach you to to
work with you?
Do you have a website?
Speaker 2 (30:51):
sure.
I have a website which isbright horizon therapiescom so
they can reach me through mywebsite.
They can also email me at notat Bright Horizon Therapies dot
com If they're interested in.
I have a podcast which iscalled Trauma Demystified, where
I share more of my insightsabout trauma.
I give some psychoeducation.
I also give some tools that Ihope help people to do their
(31:14):
recovery.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
Awesome, and I'll
include those in the show notes
so people can check that out.
And you said it's trauma,trauma, demystified.
Yes, awesome.
Would you mind, after the show,sending me an email with some
links to that so I can includethem in the show notes, so
people can reach you and checkout that podcast?
Sure, cool.
Is there anything else you'dlike to share with the audience?
(31:37):
Anything else that pops out inyour head?
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Well, it pops out in
my head.
I know that it's sometimesreally difficult to believe that
healing is possible when peoplehave experienced trauma.
The one thing I say it is ajourney, but I also believe it's
possible.
So I would really invite peopleto look at themselves and find
some support that can help themto do.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Yeah, I would agree.
And, and you know, if you go toone person and it just you just
don't feel it, don't give up,try someone else.
You know, I am living proofthat that it can change your
life and it is possible.
If you met me two years ago,you'd be like what in the world
is wrong with this guy?
So it's, it's definitelypossible.
(32:24):
It's critical the world we livein.
There's trauma around everycorner and we're just about all
dealing with trauma at somepoint at some level.
So yeah, I would.
I would definitely agree.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Get there and and do
what you can to to heal I agree,
like I believe for myself, myrecovery was worth it oh, 100.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
Yeah, my, my quality
of life today, compared to two
years ago, is night and day.
Yeah well, thank you for comingon, nat.
I really appreciate it.
Uh, not nat jovenich Jovanichor Jovanich Jovanich Jovanich,
okay.
So it's very nice to meet you.
Thank you so much for coming onand sharing your expertise.
(33:06):
If you want to check out Nat,you can go to
brighthorizontherapiescom orcheck out her podcast, trauma
Demystified, and we'll put linksto both of those in the show
notes.
And then her email address isjust natnat A T at bright
horizon therapiescom and I'msure she's got some plenty of
information on her website thatyou guys can go check out and
(33:28):
get some more information on herand the different things that
she's doing in the trauma space.
So thanks again for coming on.
That I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
Thank you for having
me, Russ.
I appreciated our conversation.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
My pleasure.
We'll talk soon.
Thank you, guys Once again, ifyou're interested in working
with Nat, you can check her outat brighthorizontherapiescom or
on her podcast, traumademystified, or you can email
her at Nat atbrighthorizontherapiescom.
And Nat, that's bright horizonwith no S, correct?
Speaker 2 (33:59):
therapiescom and Nat.
That's bright horizon with no S, correct?
Let me check that Brighthorizon therapies gets without
an S.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
Okay, so bright
horizon therapiescom.
Nat at bright horizontherapiescom.
Thanks again, nat reallyappreciate it.
Guys, thanks so much forjoining us and we'll see you
next week.
Thank you Enjoyed that as muchas I did.
Nat is is brilliant when itcomes to trauma and how it
affects us on a daily basis, andif you guys are interested in
working with Nat, you can checkher out at
(34:26):
brighthorizontherapiescom.
If you guys are interested inworking with me, you can reach
out to me on brainspottingcscomor you can just go to Facebook,
send me a message there and I'llreach back out to you.
We offer everything fromone-on-one coaching to workshops
, parenting classes, all kindsof stuff, so we'd love to chat
with you about what your needsare.
(34:47):
Anyway, thanks for joining usthis week.
Next week we will see you.