April 9, 2025 • 55 mins
Women are not taught to understand our bodies - and that’s a problem.
In this episode of Unapologetically Yours, Ashley sits down with Dr. Rishma Walji — Naturopathic Doctor, PhD, TEDx speaker, and host of the XO Conversations Podcast — to talk about the massive gaps in women’s healthcare and education… and the emotional cost of filling in the blanks ourselves.
From fertility to perimenopause, pregnancy to postpartum, women are often left to navigate some of life’s most important decisions without the full picture. No roadmap. No real answers.
Dr. Rishma has spent over 20 years helping women make complex choices about their health, hormones, and families. In this conversation, she and Ashley unpack what it really means to advocate for your own care, trust your body, and grieve the losses — even the ones you chose — along the way.
If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed, under-informed, or completely alone in a major life decision about your body, this episode is a must-listen.
In this episode, you’ll hear about:
✨ The emotional labor of navigating women’s healthcare
✨ The invisible grief of “chosen loss” (and how to hold it)
✨ Why miscarriage and birth trauma are still taboo
✨ How we’ve been taught to ignore our bodies—and how to start listening again
✨ The messy middle of perimenopause, motherhood, and identity
✨ What it means to mother ourselves (and each other)
✨ How to feel confident in your choices—even when the world questions them
Whether you’re making a major decision or just trying to make sense of your own needs, this conversation is a reminder: your body knows. And you don’t have to go it alone.
Connect with Dr. Rishma:
YouTube @livingxo
Instagram @livingxo
Connect with Ashley:
Instagram @ashleydlogan
Website https://ashleydlogan.com/
Resources mentioned in the episode:
Have a topic or guest you’d love to see featured on the Unapologetically Yours podcast? Send us an email: podcast@unapologeticallyyours.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Everything I learned about being a woman, I learned from a man.
This is one of the reasons I felt so passionate about my career because I'm like, why isit the case that someone at 40 could come to me and say that she doesn't understand her
period?
It's because we learned it in school at 12 years old and then nobody mentions it again.
(00:21):
Hello and welcome to the latest episode of the Unapologetically Yours podcast.
I'm your host Ashley Logan and I'm so happy to have you here today.
Unapologetically Yours is a place where we go deep on everything from spirituality torelationship and connection to business and the belief systems.
Because in a world when we've been taught to play by the rules, it's time to liveunapologetically.
(00:44):
And I am so happy to have
guest here today.
We met in the fall at a Gateless Writing retreat and instantly I was like, is my sister.
Love this woman.
I knew that there would be lots of opportunity for us to collaborate in the future andinviting her here is a dream.
(01:05):
I want to introduce to you Dr.
Rishma Walji.
Thank you.
I'm so excited to be here with you, Ashley.
This is going to be great.
So tell us a little bit about your
background and expertise because you've got so much to share beyond being a naturopathicdoctor, PhD, years in clinical practice.
You are a whole ass woman, a mother.
(01:26):
have so much wisdom to share.
tell us who you are.
Thank you.
I definitely do have the science background, but also I'm a woman and I'm a human and I'ma mom and I
I have stress and I worry about my kids.
just like, I think everyone else out there, we sort of try to figure it out.
But I think in the background of my healthcare journey, being in healthcare for over 20years, I spent a lot of time helping people make very complex decisions about hormones,
(01:52):
about health, about life.
And I loved it.
I loved working with patients.
I loved my job.
I really loved being an advocate for women.
But as time went on, I realized that, especially as I took on more complex cases,
I realized that it was really hard because as women go through many things as we do,hormonal changes or pregnancy or fertility and things that I used to focus on in practice,
(02:15):
the people who were coming in were getting kind of pushed against a wall.
They were having less time, less options, the things that were being made available tothem because we have all of these changes in our bodies.
And it started feeling like options that were given to them were not.
options at all.
They were not actual true decisions that they could make.
And that was really frustrating to me because I would hear, you know, I wish I met you 10,15, 20 years ago.
(02:39):
And I was like, how can I sort of get earlier on in the journey and even bring it beyondhealthcare and not just in the clinical space, but also in life?
Like, how can we start making decisions in a more intentional way?
And I think the biggest thing that I found that really is inadequate, I think, is the waythat people get advice about decisions.
(03:00):
and the decisions that they have.
Because a lot of it is like, logic, you have to be productive, you have to be efficient,and that's inadequate because we have so many decisions that are emotional.
I mean, in 20 plus years working with women, Ashley, I don't recall very many decisionsthat were not full of emotion, right?
Like we're not talking about what to have for dinner.
(03:20):
We're talking about, do I have another child?
We're talking about, do I leave my family so I can move somewhere and be with the personthat I love?
We're talking about, do I take a promotion?
and then possibly leave my kids behind at home and not spend time with them?
Or do I leave my career, this ambition and this identity that I have in order to take careof my kids?
Like everything is emotional.
There's so much emotion.
(03:42):
my gosh.
And like the thing that is so on my mind right now is like, gosh, we tend to treat policy,healthcare, so many things as black and white.
And it is just not the case because there are so many factors.
I mean, even if you look at like trying to figure out like an elimination diet, likethat's an easy one.
It's like,
Okay, so you eliminate some foods to try to figure out your allergy, then yet factoring inthe fact that you're taking XYZ medication or getting zero sleep or smoking cigarettes
(04:10):
behind your garage or whatever other things that can impact a person on a daily basis,deep trauma, stress, the whole spectrum.
And it's just, it's not a one size fit all.
And when you think about healthcare decisions that people are making about their bodies,it goes so much beyond.
a just simple, this is your option and go decide because we're forgetting about the humanand all of the factors that play into being human.
(04:40):
And the other thing that really, I think I noticed in practice and I think it really, I'mtrying to advocate for is for people to understand that decisions are not a moment in
time.
Like we think I have to make this decision.
Is it right or is it wrong?
And so often there's gray, but also it's a process.
It's not a pivot point.
Like there are so many things that come after that decision.
even when you make it, you have to deal with all of the emotional fallout, the sacrifice,the change that happens after making that decision.
(05:07):
And especially for women, when we have a biological clock and we have kids and we don'thave time to handle our own perspectives, we just kind of keep going.
You're laughing because I'm sure you've gone through this as we all have.
Of course, of course.
And it's that intersection between reality and truth and trust.
(05:28):
and all of the things that play into our day-to-day lives and then desire.
Like most people just, they end up doing whatever the fuck they want to do at the end ofthe day, but it's giving them the informed information and the choices and then the trust
to go out into the world and live the life that.
that they're going to live.
Yeah, it's funny that you bring up trust because I feel like, especially for women, I'msure it happens to men too, but definitely more so for women because we go through so many
(05:55):
changes in life and because we have hormones and because we go through puberty, we haveperimenopause.
And also if you've had kids, you go through pregnancy, you go through, like there's somany different changes that we go through.
And I feel like this trust piece is really, really hard, one, to trust our bodies, butalso we're sort of told what to do.
We're sort of told, you know, this is how you should feel.
This is how you should show up.
(06:15):
This is how you should behave.
And so we stop trusting ourselves.
We start questioning, did I do this right?
I must have made a mistake.
now I feel guilty.
I should have done that.
You know, and we sort of get clouded with all of these other feelings and expectations ofourselves.
And that really impacts how we
look at the future of our lives and our future decisions.
(06:37):
my gosh, that feels so true to me.
And it's like, well, especially for women, like, let's break it down for a second.
One, we have won the societal expectations.
And that's one thing, all of the should statements, the pressure that is absolutely...
can be crushing.
so I actually like started to ask myself recently, I like kind of had this epiphany thateverything I learned about being a woman, I learned from a man.
(07:04):
So let's like think about that and, and, and examine it.
So we look at even growing up at the time when, when you and I were growing up, all of theTV shows,
were written by men, so how they were portraying women.
The advertising was written by men to help women feel a certain way.
The medical research conducted was by men for men.
(07:27):
And then we think about our mothers and the societal expectations that came from men toteach them.
how to mother, how to show up in the workplace, how to be polite, to not be angry, to makepeace in the world without that full representation of the spectrum of what it means to be
a woman.
And as I chewed on that for a little bit, I was like, well, fuck, that's a big thing thatwe have to unravel.
(07:54):
So like, what's the main characteristic that defines womanhood?
And I think that's intuition.
But when that is so...
clouded or I guess I could say feminine energy is that that intuition those inner thatinner voice that inner knowing but when that voice is so clouded by noise by expectation
by the full plates that so many of us have it becomes really hard to know what's mine thisperson Ashley what's yours and what's coming from someone else
(08:25):
Yeah, for sure.
This happens all the time.
This is one of the reasons I felt so passionate about my career because I'm like, ofcourse, you know, why is it the case that someone at 40 could come to me and say that she
doesn't understand her period?
It's because we learned it in school at 12 years old and then nobody mentions it again andwe don't ask questions and we're not allowed to talk about it and we don't get any
(08:45):
information.
And I'm like,
You have a right to this information.
This is your body.
You should understand what's going on in your body.
We should be allowed to talk about it.
We should be allowed to ask questions and we don't.
And it's a very taboo topic, especially, I mean, I think everywhere, but especially incertain cultures, you we don't talk about these kinds of things.
And of course we're not going to trust ourselves.
We don't understand ourselves.
(09:06):
We think that what's happening in our bodies or what's happening in our minds is abnormal.
most of the time.
we're not, you know, even if you just think about work, right?
Like, or going to the gym, you know, you have your period or something and it's like, Istill have to perform at my best.
Nobody even knows.
I was actually listening to one of your podcast episodes when you talked about yourhistory with miscarriage.
Can I just say, first of all, was such a powerful episode and I'm so sorry you had to gothrough that, but I was listening to you talk and I was like, this happens all the time.
(09:34):
You will be sitting across the table from somebody and you will be going through somethingdevastating, something traumatic.
and that person will have no clue what you're going through.
And this happens to women countless, countless times.
my gosh, that is, well, first of all, thank you so much.
And it's actually interesting because the anniversary of my most recent miscarriage istomorrow.
(09:56):
And so I've been reflecting on it quite a bit.
And the interesting thing to me is like even coming down to periods.
So let's talk about that for a second.
I was this many years old.
the like late 30s, early 40s, when I started to understand the phases of the cycle, like,does it mean to be in the ovulation phase?
And what does that do for my energy and how I show up in the world?
(10:18):
And what does it when I'm in the luteal phase, what that does for me and like, andfiguring out like, once I started to track that, like, women are a 28 day cycle of change,
and that what is happening to us during our own cycles or the phases of the moon,depending on if you're post menopause.
It's really, really interesting in terms of how we view ourselves, how we respond tothings, our energy.
(10:43):
And noting that like I, myself loathing during like my Ludo phase is just like, started toknow that.
And then I could be like, that's that little voice talking to me.
And maybe I shouldn't make a big decision right now, or trying to schedule importantmeetings or things around like being in the opulation phase where I'm showing up a little
bit fucking cuter and happier.
(11:03):
And it's like, how are we not?
teaching this to our kids and also don't get me started on like hiding tampons up yoursleeve to go to the bathroom when it's more than 50 % of the population.
Yeah, yeah.
I have to say I am very strong about this in my family.
(11:25):
I have two teenage daughters and I talk about this stuff all the time.
My poor younger daughter, I was having a conversation with her the other day about
you know, sex and periods and all this stuff.
And we were talking, she was very uncomfortable, right?
And we're talking about it.
And I just like use all the words and I talk about everything very, very openly.
And she's like, do we have to talk about this?
Very uncomfortable.
(11:45):
My older daughter who's been through it all, she's listening from the other room, she's onher computer.
And she looks over and she calls out to us, well, calls out to her sister, you better getused to it.
She's not gonna stop.
And I'm like, you're right.
I'm not gonna stop because this is a conversation.
that needs to be had and needs to be had often and frequently.
And you need to know that the door is open for you to ask any sort of question.
(12:09):
And my husband bless him was like, I'm a father of daughters.
Like tell me what I need to know.
Tell me what I should say.
And I was like, yes, thank you.
know, because this conversation has to be had.
It's just so true.
I think about like, okay, so our responsibility as women who are waking up to all of thethings that were again, taught to us that were learned by men, like that.
(12:31):
is that's our culture.
It's a reality.
And by the way, I met faulting the women who came before us.
They did exactly what they needed to do.
And they didn't know.
They didn't know.
Yeah.
Or didn't know.
But we are where we are.
Now we have access to more information, more understanding.
And as women, we have the chance to change the way that we're teaching our daughters.
I mean, even coming down to like bullshit things like that boy's mean to you because helikes you.
(12:55):
Fuck that.
Those things, that's not where we should, that's not what we should teach our daughters toaccept.
And the same thing when it comes to knowing and understanding our bodies.
And I think that that's amazing.
You're an amazing mom.
Hopefully my kids will realize that at some point when I'm embarrassing them.
It was funny because my mom and I had this like tremendously open relationship and I was awildly curious child and said whatever came to mind and asked her tons of questions about.
(13:25):
periods and sex and other things and I did I got the information that she was capable ofsharing not going down to phases and all of those things and the shame that we carry and
yada yada but the information that and that she could share and then I went on to educateeveryone all of the seventh grade girls learned about Period sex everything for me and
that was my role and so my mom's girlfriends can thank her because they didn't have tohave those big conversations with their daughters because they had me but
(13:53):
A 13 year old girl is not the best educator about all the things that are happening andwill happen to a woman's body.
And like you said, like we're changing.
We change like going from starting your first periods to going into pregnancy and all thehormonal changes that happen there, then going through birth and then postpartum, then
(14:16):
carrying that, riding that wave into paramenopause, which is a whole nother thing and, andinto menopause.
Yeah, and it's the Wild West.
We don't talk about it enough.
And also, this is the other thing I think we don't talk a lot about.
And this is what I'm really interested in with my writing now with decision making.
We have a lot of, how should I describe this?
You know, there's a word for when something happens to you and you didn't want it, likesomething bad happened, someone dies, there's grief.
(14:44):
There's a word for this, right?
We experience grief.
We don't maybe in society know how to handle it.
We maybe don't talk about it enough.
But there's a word for it.
People understand that you've been through it.
And then you go through, you know, being a woman, let's say you've had a miscarriage andnobody knows.
And that's another very difficult thing to have a word, but not really know how todescribe it, not really know how to express it as something that I used to coach women on
(15:05):
a lot.
There's another really special kind of pain that no one talks about and no one has a wordfor.
And this is something that I'm really fascinated about and trying to give a word for inthe book eventually that comes out.
And that is the kind of loss that we choose because we make choices in our lives.
And in order to do something that is important to us, we also have to sacrifice somethingelse.
(15:27):
And so I'm at the moment calling it chosen loss.
And we don't really have a way to grieve that.
We don't really have a way to express that because we feel guilty.
know, like I chose to have kids and I would never change that choice.
I love my children.
I wanted my children.
I desperately tried to have them and still I gave up a lot and I would do it again.
(15:51):
But that doesn't mean I don't miss that independence, that ambition, that privacysometimes.
There are things that we go through.
I think more so as women because of the nurturing aspect, because of the hormonal changes,because of our body changes.
I'm not as productive when I'm pregnant.
Of course, I'm building an actual human in my body.
(16:12):
Why do I think I can be?
you know, quote unquote productive, right?
But it changes not just how our life unfolds, but also who we are.
We change along that process.
And that's the piece that I think we don't, not only don't talk about, but we don'tacknowledge, you know, instead we just feel bad about it.
I shouldn't feel this way.
Oh my gosh, that's so interesting.
(16:34):
like, so as you're describing that, I mean, so many things are going through my head.
Like for example, I mean, people saying things like,
Well, you chose it.
You chose to have three kids in rapid firing.
It's like, okay, yeah, I did, of course.
And I love my children, all of those things.
And I needed to take a walk.
And that need doesn't take away from that.
I wanted to be a mother.
(16:55):
and it's one of those things too, that when we have so much, again, like coming down tothat societal pressure and those expectations about how we should be and how we should
show up, that it doesn't create a lot of that space for the truth.
the radical honesty and authenticity.
really, like maybe let's look at like how we sugar coat things.
okay, pregnancy, we look at, okay, this is this wonderful magical time, you're growing ahuman, you've got the glow.
(17:22):
And then there's all of this redirecting towards building the perfect nursery and theperfect registry and all of those things.
But we are not talking about all of the ways that it all of that you completely lose whoyou are and have to rebuild that.
that you can do that with choice and intention, but when we bypass the truth aboutwomanhood, when we bypass the truth about motherhood, when we bypass the truth about our
(17:46):
whole selves, then we're missing the chance to grow together because through that truth wefind alignment, build trust with other people, and we can advance the conversation about
what our
actual needs are as a society, as women.
Yeah, and the actual needs is so important.
I call this the void.
Like I used to see this in practice a lot.
(18:07):
I still see it now, but I'll give you an example.
I used to work with fertility patients and they would of course be going through a lot inorder to have kids, right?
They would be trying for years and they would be poked and prodded and there's all sortsof things that happen in the fertility world that really don't get acknowledged.
Like this woman might be working and going to appointments every other day.
You know, like it's just so intense.
And so I would have these women who would get pregnant and then have their baby.
(18:31):
And then they would come in, say their baby's two months, a year or two years, whatever itis.
And they would be struggling with something, sleep deprivation, know, stress, all thethings that moms go through that are normal.
And they would all come and say to me the same thing.
I am so grateful that I have this child.
I don't want to complain.
And I would say, you have this child, yes.
(18:55):
and you're grateful, yes, and you worked hard to get here, yes.
And that still doesn't take away the fact that you feel this challenge, this pain, thismissing of your independence, this change of your body, this sleep deprivation, the things
that you've given up in order to get here.
That's what I call the void.
And it happens almost in every emotional complex, difficult decision.
(19:17):
I have someone who left her family and went across to a different country to marry someoneshe loves.
And she's like,
I love this guy, but also I miss my family.
And I'm like, both of those things can be true.
You chose one thing and then you feel something that you miss.
This is what I call the void where you fall into this almost like a well of like, I don'twant to call it depression because it's not medical depression, but it's almost like you
(19:42):
feel a little bit lost, a little bit.
unappreciated, a little bit untethered in this sort of void of a valley.
And you realize, I miss all of these things.
And what's really devastating to me is a lot of people will then look back and say, did Ido this wrong?
Did I make a mistake?
Did I choose the right person?
Should I have lived over there instead?
Should I have tried harder?
I should have done this instead of what I did.
(20:04):
And really what we need to do is climb out of the void on the other side and emerge intothe person that
made those choices, made those sacrifices, but acknowledges the pain and then fills thatvoid or climbs out of that void because we all feel it.
You know, even for people who choose something that they would, I have some patients whochose not to have kids, but then they see someone else who has a kid and it's, they made
(20:28):
the choice, but they also see this other person and they kind of feel bad because they'relike,
this person's sort of shoving it in my face or whatever.
There's all these emotions and they go into this void.
Did I make the right choice?
Are people judging me?
All of these things.
it's like, those emotions are valid.
Those emotions are real and we don't want to get stuck there.
And it's not just about being grateful.
It's not just about gratitude.
(20:49):
It's not just about comparison.
You're feeling emotions that are complex and opposite and that's okay.
And now how do we become a person that can experience all of those things, but also keep
connected to the vision that we had in the first place.
my gosh, there's so much there.
When I think about too, like even just the, I allowed to feel this way?
(21:11):
Am I allowed to ask for more?
Am I allowed to ask for something different?
And thinking about like even like marriage, for example, it's like, okay, so you've got,you're maybe not in an abusive relationship.
You've got kids, you've got money, you've got the things, you check the boxes.
and also realizing that it's not what you need.
as an individual person, and is it better than maybe someone else who's in a could beshittier situation, abuse, poverty, all of those things.
(21:40):
So we tend to say like, how dare I ask for more?
How dare I ask for different?
And I think that keeps a lot of people stuck, stuck in not listening to their own innerwisdom about what will work for them and what the path forward is to
joy, happiness, being on the other side of that void.
And I think I love the word.
(22:02):
I love the void.
I love the void.
Thank you.
I look at my life right now, like recently, you know, in the middle of a divorce and it'sdeeply painful and difficult.
And there's so many things that I'm grieving right now.
What could have been, why this is so hard.
How dare I, missing time with my children who I adore.
(22:25):
while simultaneously being like, wow, okay, I can take care of my needs.
I can do the things I need to do in the time when they're gone.
can dream a little bigger.
can dream differently.
I can do the things.
I can carve the life that I want to.
I'm climbing out of the void, but there is, you know, many people who are like, well, areyou sure?
(22:46):
Or other people who are like, yeah, it doesn't matter the nuance, but you know, at the endof the day, when we're looking at
women and our own expectations, we are allowed to choose different.
We are allowed to choose alignment and whatever that might look like.
You know, it's interesting when you talk about comparison or even advice that people giveyou.
(23:06):
It's very interesting because everyone's life is different.
First of all, we are allowed to choose whatever we want.
We get to play this game of life according to our own roles.
And I call this the outside problem because if I'm very
determined about what I want in my life.
And then all of sudden I go inside my house.
like, I know this is the right decision for me.
I am connected to myself.
(23:26):
I know exactly what's going on.
I feel all these emotions, but I'm clear that this is what I want and outside and peoplegive me their opinions and they tell me what they think.
And it's out of context because it's their life, their perspective, their opinions andtheir good advice.
All of a sudden becomes very bad advice for me because it is not my context.
And then I think, okay, how do I
(23:48):
say, how do I stay secure in me, trusting me and my choices when I go into the world,right?
Because that's when you see the comparison, that's when you hear people's judgments, whenyou hear people's opinions, and it's like, how do I, first of all, get aligned with
myself, which is making the intentional choice, and then how do I stay there when I getout into the world?
(24:12):
And I think that is the piece that we need more support in that area.
That's the piece that I'm interested in.
I love this.
And you have so much background and experience working firsthand with women through allphases of major transition.
So now, as you think about intentional decision making and what you're focused on now,what are the key tenets of that intentional decision making?
(24:37):
Yeah, there's actually a few.
The first one is really getting clear on what you want.
A lot of people don't know what they want.
And most of the time it's because we
are thinking about what we should want, what other people want for us, what is okay towant.
And sometimes we even pre-determine what we can have based on what our life context is,what our life circumstances.
(25:00):
And so I have this process that I use at home and we have this big white board, my husbandand I, draw all over this white board and I call it decision boarding.
And not like a vision board, but we actually create this board of like, this is all thethings we want, this vision board.
have a whole process of
like pressure testing it?
Like, is this what I want or is this what somebody else wants for me?
Is this what I want or yes, is this what I want or is this what I think I should have?
(25:26):
Is this what I want or is this what my ego is telling me that I need?
Because I want to make decisions based on the things that I actually, and sometimes it'sthe ego, right?
Like I did all my degrees because my parents, you know, they were
in a different country and they got everything taken from them and they had to move andthey're like, education, nobody can take that from you.
And so I had a certain belief about my education and that's okay.
(25:48):
And I recognized that I had that belief and it was important to me.
And also I wanted a little bit of, know, I want people to listen to me.
I want people to know that I know what I'm talking about.
But now when I don't, I left my practice and now I'm like, that part is not important tome anymore.
I don't want to make decisions based on whether people are going to listen to me or not.
I don't want to, I know I have something of value.
I don't want to make decisions based on
(26:09):
scarcity mindset.
I know that my parents went through a lot, but I'm in a different place than they are.
have privilege that they didn't have, you know?
And so you make these choices along the way and then you get to update your perspective.
And so we have this whole process of figuring out what we want, pressure testing it, andthen working as a team.
Because if you're in a partnership or in a family, you can't always do it alone.
(26:31):
Like I can't just decide this is what I want and not have my partner on board, right?
Like we have to be there for each other.
So it's process.
But I feel like that is the key, really understanding what we want, why we want it, andthen really moving forward.
So I love this so much.
so I'm very big in things like breathwork, sound, meditation, trying to tune in andlisten.
(26:55):
But where I get the most information is through my body response.
so trying to teach myself things like, okay, what feels like a yes and what feels like ano?
Does it stir up?
turn on excitement.
Whoo, like sure there might be nerves, but like, is this a yes?
Is this a yes?
And then comparatively, does it inspire dread, doubt?
(27:18):
Like you can feel the difference of like that positive and negative energy in your bodywhen you kind of clear out and turn, turn off those cute busy brains that we so often have
and, really trust.
But like being radically honest, radically authentic with yourself to determine like, am Ilying to myself?
What are the other factors?
(27:38):
And so do you have any tips to like, how people get into the real like, is this true?
Yes.
Well, first I'm going to say that you are unique in that not everyone knows how to listento their body.
everyone- a journey.
did not.
Yeah.
I made so many decisions out of fear, scarcity, misalignment.
And then when I showed up to my life and was like, my gosh, everything is not where Iwanted to be.
(28:03):
And then I had to un-
tangle every part of my life over the last several years.
then I would ask you, and I have some tips too, but I would ask you like, how did youstart listening to your body?
How did you learn to do that?
Because I don't think it's easy.
This is such a good question.
I think for me, just a little bit of background.
I had all the things.
(28:23):
I had started my own business.
was multi seven figure business and had, was married, had three little kids.
lived in a great community.
But for me, what I started to realize, I call it like my Jumanji drum.
It was just this constant feeling that something's not right, something's off.
And so I did a few things like I stopped drinking alcohol.
(28:45):
And that was one way to like, kind of carry my threads from one day to the next aboutinterruption.
And that allowed me to feel my feelings and notice, okay, how do I feel around certainpeople?
Are they making me feel good?
Are they making me feel like the ick?
And then I could stop doubting, is this me?
Am I the problem?
Did I say something?
Did I do something?
Cause I was never losing track of where I was in situation.
(29:09):
Also writing.
So gateless writing.
So another more context, Dr.
Rishma and I met on a gateless writing facilitator training in Connecticut in the fall.
And gateless writing is just creating a space where you can be radically authentic withoutjudgment.
And that
your inner voice and whatever is coming out on the page is actually separate from you.
(29:33):
It's art.
So that you can examine the things that come to mind and write them out freely withoutworry of the judgment or the critic so that you can start unlock radical truths about
yourself is one avenue.
And I use that as I was writing, I was realizing like all these spots where I didn't feelloved, where I didn't feel supported, where I didn't feel like I was in alignment with my
(29:55):
truth from my business to marriage to even
kind of coming down to how like, was I raising my kids in a way that felt truly authenticto me?
So I asked myself some hard questions and then learning to trust my body was the next partof it through yoga.
Like I couldn't have a busy brain and do a tree pose.
And so learning to kind of silence my body, but then tuning into like, okay, what was abody?
(30:19):
Yes.
Starting with little things.
Do I want pizza?
And I couldn't always answer.
It was like, I want pizza because I know they want pizza.
So be like, what?
No.
I want pizza.
What do I want on pizza?
Not because what I know that they want on pizza.
So anyway, starting to get just like radically authentic with the tiny things and thenusing those tools and those emotions to crack into the bigger things.
(30:41):
But you're bringing up so much here because I find so many women that I work with willsay, I know what everybody around me wants.
I know what every single other person around me wants because I take care of all of them,but I don't always know what I want.
And so everything you said, I think is it's a journey for all of us.
Even I had to go through this journey too.
The first tip I usually give people is to pay attention.
Pay attention to your body, pay attention to your reactions, pay attention to yourpatterns.
(31:05):
Just pay attention and do it in a way that is not judgy, that is not just be curious aboutyourself.
It's really hard sometimes.
It's really hard.
know, like when I yell at my kids, I'm like,
I shouldn't have done that.
And then you start beating yourself up and you start thinking all these negative things.
But really I'm like, why did I do that?
What bothered me about that interaction?
Like just pay attention that, I seem to always react in this kind of situation.
(31:28):
Or what I used to tell my patients, pay attention to your body.
You know, when your body is usually trying to tell you something, we just don't understandthe language that it speaks.
Like if you think about just your kids or, you know, a partner or a friend.
We all speak the same language.
Like we're speaking English.
Like my husband and I will argue sometimes and I'm like, we're both speaking English.
We just don't understand what the other person's trying to say.
And we're so busy saying what we want to say.
(31:49):
Your body has a language and we don't speak the language of our bodies, right?
So I usually say pay attention to your body and learn the language that it is trying totell you.
And this, is it a yes or is it a no?
This full body, a lot of people talk about this with intuition.
And I, for a long time, had a really hard time with this.
because sometimes my yeses and nos, and I've seen it in a lot of patients, especiallypeople who are like me, very like type A, you know, we have to do this, we have to do
(32:16):
this.
Sometimes it's like an expectation or a fear, or it's like, oh, I don't want to do thatbecause that makes me uncomfortable.
Does that mean it's a no?
Or does that mean actually I should pay attention to this?
So I always dial it back, especially if you're not a person who yet can do this and reallyunderstand herself.
I usually start with just paying attention without judgment, just notice, just be curious.
(32:37):
And then I ask myself, well, where is it coming from?
When does it happen?
What are the patterns?
Because then you can start to unpack.
Did I always get a headache at the beginning of my cycle or oh, do I always yell when mykids are rude to me?
Why do I think that that's being rude?
Maybe they're thinking something out.
Like it's sort of a curiosity of like, where did this come from?
(32:58):
Why is this a pattern?
Because this is something else that I think is super fascinating about the brain.
90 % of our decisions are subconscious.
90%, we don't even realize that we've made a decision, but our brain has already figuredit out.
And so being intentional with your choices, and we think we have conscious choice, butreally a lot of it is patterns and habits and past beliefs and things like this.
(33:20):
And so just asking yourself these questions, where did it come from?
Am I thinking, no, I don't wanna do this because it's a boundary issue, in which case Ishouldn't do it, or is it because I'm afraid?
You know, just asking yourself those questions and really sitting with it, being quiet,which was really hard for me.
Yoga is a really great way.
For me, I struggled for many years, but now I'm finally meditating.
It took me many, many years to get on.
(33:41):
get in touch with myself enough and quiet my brain enough to get there.
In fact, it was such a hard thing for me that I actually did a whole podcast episode onmeditation for people who can't meditate because I was like, I am struggling and I cannot
do this.
relate that in the show notes for sure because it's the same and so many people feel that.
Such a hard thing to do.
And then the last piece, and I think I already touched on it, but
(34:04):
is self-compassion, right?
And this is another thing that's really hard for many of us and myself included is justnot to judge myself and not to feel bad about anger, fear, know, any kind of emotion that
I'm feeling, not to feel bad about it.
And just to say, I'm feeling this for a reason.
Where is it coming from?
What is my body trying to say?
What have I experienced that is making me go through this reaction in this moment?
(34:28):
And just really feeling compassion for that.
And I feel like if we can get to a place where we can understand our body, our minds, andjust have a little bit of quiet and space, which we don't, we'd never take time for that,
then I think we can really get into, tap into that self-knowing, that self-confidence.
Okay, so here's my question for you.
I agree with everything that you're saying.
(34:49):
It is so important to...
Be gentle with ourselves.
We don't do that.
Like we're so in our critic and so stuck in judgment and expectations and all of thosethings.
then, but what I'm wondering about is in a time when, especially for working parents andtalking mostly about women now, when our plates are so full, managing everything from kids
(35:12):
to careers, to those expectations, how do you create the space?
to be gentle, to listen.
This is such a good question, such a good question.
And I don't know if I have a good answer for it, but I'm going to tell you what I do.
I look at my coping strategies because there are things that I do when I'm feelingstressed that probably are just helping me manage my stress.
(35:34):
And some of them are good for me and some of them are not good.
And so usually what I do is I start by asking myself, what do I need right now?
Not necessarily what do I want, but what do I need right now?
Do I need to be scrolling on my phone?
Do I need to take a nap?
Do I need a walk?
And sometimes I listen and I do what I need and sometimes I do what I want, right?
Like sometimes I'll just, you know, have the chocolate or whatever else that's a copingstrategy for me that has helped me manage stress.
(35:59):
But I spend a lot of time really building coping strategies that fill my cup, so to speak.
And I don't just mean self-care, take time for yourself in that superficial way, but like,what do I actually need?
And sometimes,
You know, for a long time it was sleep and I refused it.
I felt like I was going to jail.
I was like, I want time alone.
(36:20):
My kids are finally asleep.
I mean, now they're teenagers and they stay up later than I do.
But sometimes when they were young, I was like, I need this time to myself.
And it felt like I was going to jail.
But I recognized that for me, sleep was the thing I needed.
And it was what I call a domino effect where everything would go to shit if I didn'tsleep.
Like everything would just fall apart.
(36:42):
I would eat.
poorly, I would yell at people, I was grumpy.
Everything just fell apart.
I wouldn't want to exercise.
Where for my husband, for example, exercises his domino thing, right?
Like if he exercises, he sleeps well, he eats better.
And so we have to find the thing that helps us build capacity, build energy, build thespace, the time, the ability to handle all of the stuff that happens around us.
(37:07):
So when people tell me, you have to fill your cup, you have to put your mask on before youput everybody else's, and I was like, you know, it's so hard to hear that because my kid's
up at three in the morning.
I'm not going to be like, sorry, I need sleep.
Like, I'm getting up.
getting up with my kid, you know?
So it's not easy to do that.
But then that morning when I wake up super tired, then I would say, what do I need today?
(37:30):
And then if I am able to answer, not every day, can I answer that question well or can Ilisten to myself?
But if I'm able to listen to myself, I can say, it's okay if I'm not productive today.
It's okay if I lie down.
It's okay if I leave the dishes in the sink because what do I need today?
I need rest.
And so that's how I'm creating space.
It's not easy.
don't
I'm not perfect at it.
(37:51):
I'm getting better as I move into sort of perimenopausal years, I'm realizing I have lessoption.
Like I have, I cannot do it unless I'm listening to myself because this is like, it's thewild west.
It is no joke.
Your body takes over and all sorts of things are happening.
And I'm like, I don't have a choice.
I need to listen to myself now.
And so it's kind of empowering to say, this is what I need.
(38:12):
And I feel so much better when I do it.
Wow.
I love that.
That, I mean, that's such good insight in itself.
And then
and trying to be honest with yourself about the need versus the want.
And that's something that I'm going to definitely take with me just to try to figure outlike, can I create a little bit more space?
How can I give myself just a break?
And that's just a break in terms of like sitting on the couch or taking a nap, but justrecognizing that there it's okay to not be fully productive.
(38:40):
It's okay.
And gosh, women are so hard on, we're so hard on ourselves thinking about that endlessto-do list and the things that are left.
on it instead of focusing on the things that you did do.
We tend to think about the things we didn't do, but when you think about what you need, itreally changes the conversation because it makes it about your whole self.
Yes.
(39:00):
Creates that space and creates that ease.
So that's amazing.
So I read this recently and I want to share it with you that there are three species onearth that go through menopause, elephants, killer whales and humans.
And the reason for that is that the
Women then who are done being baby makers can then lead, guide, and teach.
(39:24):
And elephants, for example, they pass down their pathways and where they're walking todifferent watering holes and finding their way through the Sahara.
They pass down that knowledge through the generations.
And same goes with killer whales and their hunting strategies.
And I don't know if you've ever watched the nature shows about
(39:46):
killer whales and how they hunt, it's like, they're mean, they're fierce, and they'refucking effective.
And they teach each other how to do that.
And then I started to think about women and how we have, over the course of time, stoppedvaluing the crone, stopped valuing the woman once she's not super young and prime baby
making years and noting that like women in their 40s, women in their 50s, like one, likehow much wisdom that they have and then going into the...
(40:15):
grandmothers and the older women and how much we're not leaning into that knowledge andthose resources and that truth.
Well, I'm going to stop and let you react to that.
have so much to say about this.
my gosh.
You know, I come from a culture where we revere the expertise and wisdom of age.
And I don't think that that's the case in many cultures.
(40:37):
And I do agree that a lot of society right now, you know, we definitely stop valuing.
the wisdom that comes with age and expertise.
But if you look at traditional cultures, like even if you just take the birth example,when women go through birthing, breastfeeding, they're going through, labor, delivery,
when you look at traditional cultures, traditional history, women are surrounded by otherwomen.
(41:00):
They're surrounded by grandmothers.
They're surrounded by their aunts.
They're surrounded by their sisters.
And it's a community effort.
to bring a child into the world.
It's a community effort to feed this child, to take care of this, to raise the child,right?
They say it takes a village because it definitely takes a village.
And then you move into sort of, you know, North American society where we're so isolatedand we have to do everything on our own.
(41:25):
And I have to say, this is not how we were meant to be at all.
And so I feel like this is something that
I had the privilege of attending many, many births because of this, the fertilityexpertise that I had, and it was a doula for many women.
And it is such a powerful experience to see what women can go through in that period oftime.
(41:45):
But it's also interesting to see that over the years and over time, as we become moreisolated, women have stopped learning how to believe in themselves, how to trust
themselves.
They get scared.
They don't believe that their bodies can do it.
And I've seen women go through
incredible things in the middle of labor.
Like we have a strength that we don't even realize is there.
(42:06):
But when you have other women there who are supporting you, who are telling you, you cando this, like, you know, generations of women have done this and you can also do this.
You have that support that is so needed when we feel those doubts.
Everyone feels doubts, right?
So this is sort of a, I'm so glad you brought this up because I think it's such animportant piece.
I also noticed
(42:27):
that there is a transition that's happening as women start to have kids older.
And we go through this sort of fertility jar.
A lot of my patients would be in their late 30s, early 40s.
And so they were going through this period of time where they were delivering and havingbabies, but also then approaching perimenopausal changes in years.
And it is such a hard transition that I think no one really recognizes.
(42:48):
Like historically you have your kid in the teenagers or 20 years old, and then you become40 and you are...
wise and you have your health and you have, mean, life expectancy was different, but youhave a different sort of role in society.
And now we're at this other place where, you know, you're 43 and you have a toddlerrunning around.
It is not easy to be going through.
(43:10):
I tell my teenagers all the time, have you seen that movie Inside Out?
You know how they talk about how you're under construction in puberty?
And I tell my daughter, I'm like, you're going through, you're under construction forpuberty and I'm under construction on the other side.
Yes.
a new system being built.
Yeah.
my god, I think that like one of the most I'm going to go like real, real authentic rightnow.
(43:32):
So one of the most disappointing things about the birth of my first child was looking ather dad who didn't know what to do or how to support me.
And I was like, this is what we've created in society, like, and it was a really traumaticbirth.
And it's this is nothing to him.
This is about this.
(43:53):
isolation, where it's like, okay, you got go to your birth class, and that's going toequip you for how to deliver a baby.
And then in my case, I went into labor, and my water broke and was act of labor and somuch pain.
And he didn't know that body experienced how to support me.
And so then go through the epidural labor slows down all of those things ended up having ashoulder dystocia birth.
(44:18):
And what that means is, you know, like the
time to push.
It was time to push because I was, you know, fully dilated, but didn't feel any pressure,wasn't, didn't feel ready and had been laying down all night and all of those things.
And what started as a very fast, after my water broke, everything was moving fast until Igot the epidural.
I didn't ask for Pitocin.
I was given Pitocin without my consent.
(44:38):
I actually didn't want Pitocin.
They gave it to me anyway.
And then, so we're in a situation where my body is not ready.
They're telling me to push.
And then they used a vacuum.
to get the baby out.
So I don't know exactly what a vacuum looks like, but basically they're trying to pull itout of the body.
Yeah.
Suction.
And then in that process, after three hours of pushing when I'm completely drained, haveno support, he doesn't know how to be supportive, her head comes out and her shoulders get
(45:08):
stuck.
And so I remember this nurse jumping on top of me and pushing down on me and she's lookingat me and she's like, you need to push.
And she's on me.
So anyway, they got her out and held her up and she's gray and all of the things came withthe help.
(45:29):
My body was impacted.
She was fine, luckily.
But I had, this was the situation for me.
I didn't know from my provider until I got pregnant with my second what happened duringthat birth where I knew the word shoulder dystocia.
And then I joined like a shoulder dissociation support group online and then could seeeveryone else's experiences and their shared grief and loss and fear and all the things
(45:53):
that happened to varying degrees of outcomes.
And I think about how much different that birth experience would have been if I had had mysister or my best friend or someone behind me with their legs around me at a very female
centric experience where it could have been just
(46:13):
better, better than my daughter.
And maybe she still would have gotten stuck, but I don't think so.
It's so interesting because I don't know all the stats in the US, I'm in Canada, but inthe US especially, but even here, births are so medicalized now.
And talk about having a hard time trusting yourself when you're told you have to dosomething for the health of your baby, for the safety of your pregnancy, you do it.
(46:36):
I think doctors are well intended, but they don't often attend natural births.
They don't often labor women the way that they, you we used to labor women back in the dayor the way I would if I was a doula.
And I've seen so many births.
And I feel like there is a process that maybe we try to avoid the pain.
We try to avoid the length of time because it takes time.
(46:58):
And as soon as you enter the hospital, like that clock has started and they're like, yougot to get out of here.
You know, it's a very different model.
of birthing and even just laying down, putting your feet in stirrups.
Like this is not the right, this is not the best position for the mother.
It's the best position for the doctor, but it's not the best position for the mother.
And so when you think about how we labor, of course we need interventions.
(47:23):
Of course we need C-sections in emergency situations.
Of course we need all of these things when something happens.
But a lot of women don't understand the process before they've had a delivery and theirhealth providers, I think also
whether they're not educated, whether they're not experienced in going through this theway that women's bodies were meant to do it, there's vast, vast differences in how a woman
(47:46):
labors when you're going through a natural birth.
So for example, I had my babies at home and I had to do, I mean, I was in healthcare, so Iknew a lot about this, but I was also terrified because my mom had a very similar
experience to you.
She was given a lot of intervention.
And so I was terrified knowing what had happened to her.
But also with my medical knowledge, I was like, I want to do this.
(48:07):
And of course, if there's an emergency, we can get to the hospital.
had very qualified midwives.
I had very qualified doulas.
And so I was very confident in how my labor was progressing.
But everybody, everybody had a comment about how I should do it, why I was crazy to do itthis way, and how long it was going to take.
My labor was 40 hours.
(48:28):
If I was in the hospital, somebody would have intervened.
I knew it was going to be long.
It was long.
She wasn't super well positioned, but I was thankfully lucky to have that opportunity tolabor the way that I was meant to labor.
We had two very safe spurts.
I know this could be very controversial because I'm not saying anything bad abouthealthcare or healthcare providers.
(48:49):
I think they just don't learn or don't experience a natural labor in that same way thatsay a midwife would.
And so many times we think that it's an emergency, it might not be.
And there's all this risk associated, right?
So everyone wants to cover their themselves.
What if something happens?
to.
mean, so we structured the health care and it makes sense.
(49:09):
It makes sense.
But also the US has a lot of negative stats, know, like really bad stats.
you think about it, like there's got to be something that we can do differently about thiswhole process.
And no wonder we don't trust ourselves.
No wonder we don't know.
how to do this and how to understand our bodies because we're not taught, we're notexposed.
(49:30):
This is why actually when I used to do law, I used to do a labor and delivery course fordads because I was like, okay, you should have women there, yes, but also the dads want to
be involved and I wanted my husband there and I'm like, you should know what to do.
You should follow my lead because it's not your body.
you should do what I say, but also you should know what to do.
And so during my labor, he was filling up the tub and he was holding me from behindbecause my arms were so tired.
(49:54):
I was gonna, I couldn't hold my baby.
And he was like literally holding me up because he had learned all of the things my bodywas gonna go through.
And I used to do a whole course just for dad.
This is how you can support the mother through labor.
And a lot of them nowadays really want to be involved.
My dad's generation, they weren't even in the room, but now they really want to beinvolved.
(50:15):
And they think, well, I'm not really useful.
It should be another woman.
What am I going to do?
And I'm like, actually, you're the person that your wife is looking to or your partner islooking to because she doesn't know any of the doctors in the room.
She needs to look at your eyes and just be like, I have someone here in my corner.
And that is an emotional piece, an emotional security that is really hard to get in thatlabor situation.
(50:39):
So yes, we should be surrounded by women.
But if you have a good partnership and that partner wants to be involved,
He should learn what you're gonna go through so that you can do it together.
I love that.
That's such a good perspective.
And it's just interesting to me to think overall about like what sort of Western societyhas created in terms of leaning on interventions and how that takes away from us leaning
(51:00):
on ourselves.
And that doesn't just translate to the birth process.
That's everything.
And now as women are sort of coming to terms with this, I think that we have thisinformation generation.
have Gen X.
is they're on social media, they're sharing information and they are seeing the lack ofresources and information that they have available to them for things like paramenopause.
(51:22):
It makes it so that as we're addressing that issue around paramenopause, menopause andresources, that then we look back to how our lack of support in birth, pregnancy,
postpartum.
so that we can as a collective say, no, this is not the right way.
This is not the best thing for our bodies.
This is not the best thing for trusting ourselves.
(51:43):
And I think that the paradigm will shift eventually, but it requires advocacy, support,sharing information, and starts with ourselves and our own ability to trust ourselves.
Ask those questions.
Is this true?
Is this not true?
What are my motivations?
Is this out of fear?
Do I have the right information?
And then...
making the choices from.
And I do think things are changing.
(52:04):
I have seen a lot more research on women.
I'm definitely not even close to how much we need, but it's changing.
are strong voices out there that are advocating.
And now with internet, social media, you have so much more access to information that wenever had years and years ago.
So I do hope that it'll change.
And I do hope that
the experience for my daughters will be different than it was for me.
(52:25):
for me, it was different than it was for my mom, but it needs voices.
It needs people to speak up for themselves and to ask questions.
Yeah.
We need to be the grandmothers that we were designed to be.
that the way, just like the killer whales, the orcas, just like the elephants, that we getto now choose the path that we forge for our daughters.
(52:48):
And that's a really beautiful and empowering.
Yeah, absolutely.
It all starts with us.
No pressure.
No pressure.
I am so glad that we had the chance to connect today.
Our conversation took us in to the depths, into the void and out the other side.
(53:10):
And I feel so hopeful knowing that you're in the world, doing the work that you're doing,raising the daughters that you're raising and that you're my friend.
Thank you.
It's so always so lovely to talk to you.
Thank you so much.
I loved this conversation.
how can people, okay, wait, actually two more questions.
There's one question that I ask every person that comes on the show and that is, what areyou doing to show up unapologetically?
(53:33):
Ooh, I love this question.
Well, I'm really taking care of myself lately.
I am really trying to make space and time to take care of myself.
I've been more consistent at the gym.
I've been trying to love my body and love my mental health.
and really just spend that time recognizing what I need and listening to myself instead ofignoring.
I'm trying to walk the talk is what I'm doing.
(53:55):
And it is really exciting and powerful and it feels luxurious, but also it feels reallyempowering.
I love that.
Let me know how it goes.
I will then walk the talk too.
How can people find and connect with you?
and listen to your podcast and your Ted Talk and all of the things that you brought intothe world.
Tell us everything.
(54:15):
Thank you.
My website is probably the best place, livingxo.com.
There's links to my podcast, my Ted Talk, I have free downloads, everything, livingxo.com.
Thank you so much for being here today.
This has been just an incredible experience.
So for those of you tuning in, please...
Smash that follow button, leave a review.
(54:36):
can contact us anytime at hello at unapologeticallyyours.com.
Want to hear from you, want your feedback and thank you so much for tuning in.
I'm Ashley Logan.
This is Dr.
Rishma and we are unapologetically yours.
Everything I learned about being a woman, I learned from a man.
This is one of the reasons I felt so passionate about my career because I'm like, why isit the case that someone at 40 could come to me and say that she doesn't understand her
period?
It's because we learned it in school at 12 years old and then nobody mentions it again.
(00:21):
Hello and welcome to the latest episode of the Unapologetically Yours podcast.
I'm your host Ashley Logan and I'm so happy to have you here today.
Unapologetically Yours is a place where we go deep on everything from spirituality torelationship and connection to business and the belief systems.
Because in a world when we've been taught to play by the rules, it's time to liveunapologetically.
(00:44):
And I am so happy to have
guest here today.
We met in the fall at a Gateless Writing retreat and instantly I was like, is my sister.
Love this woman.
I knew that there would be lots of opportunity for us to collaborate in the future andinviting her here is a dream.
(01:05):
I want to introduce to you Dr.
Rishma Walji.
Thank you.
I'm so excited to be here with you, Ashley.
This is going to be great.
So tell us a little bit about your
background and expertise because you've got so much to share beyond being a naturopathicdoctor, PhD, years in clinical practice.
You are a whole ass woman, a mother.
(01:26):
have so much wisdom to share.
tell us who you are.
Thank you.
I definitely do have the science background, but also I'm a woman and I'm a human and I'ma mom and I
I have stress and I worry about my kids.
just like, I think everyone else out there, we sort of try to figure it out.
But I think in the background of my healthcare journey, being in healthcare for over 20years, I spent a lot of time helping people make very complex decisions about hormones,
(01:52):
about health, about life.
And I loved it.
I loved working with patients.
I loved my job.
I really loved being an advocate for women.
But as time went on, I realized that, especially as I took on more complex cases,
I realized that it was really hard because as women go through many things as we do,hormonal changes or pregnancy or fertility and things that I used to focus on in practice,
(02:15):
the people who were coming in were getting kind of pushed against a wall.
They were having less time, less options, the things that were being made available tothem because we have all of these changes in our bodies.
And it started feeling like options that were given to them were not.
options at all.
They were not actual true decisions that they could make.
And that was really frustrating to me because I would hear, you know, I wish I met you 10,15, 20 years ago.
(02:39):
And I was like, how can I sort of get earlier on in the journey and even bring it beyondhealthcare and not just in the clinical space, but also in life?
Like, how can we start making decisions in a more intentional way?
And I think the biggest thing that I found that really is inadequate, I think, is the waythat people get advice about decisions.
(03:00):
and the decisions that they have.
Because a lot of it is like, logic, you have to be productive, you have to be efficient,and that's inadequate because we have so many decisions that are emotional.
I mean, in 20 plus years working with women, Ashley, I don't recall very many decisionsthat were not full of emotion, right?
Like we're not talking about what to have for dinner.
(03:20):
We're talking about, do I have another child?
We're talking about, do I leave my family so I can move somewhere and be with the personthat I love?
We're talking about, do I take a promotion?
and then possibly leave my kids behind at home and not spend time with them?
Or do I leave my career, this ambition and this identity that I have in order to take careof my kids?
Like everything is emotional.
There's so much emotion.
(03:42):
my gosh.
And like the thing that is so on my mind right now is like, gosh, we tend to treat policy,healthcare, so many things as black and white.
And it is just not the case because there are so many factors.
I mean, even if you look at like trying to figure out like an elimination diet, likethat's an easy one.
It's like,
Okay, so you eliminate some foods to try to figure out your allergy, then yet factoring inthe fact that you're taking XYZ medication or getting zero sleep or smoking cigarettes
(04:10):
behind your garage or whatever other things that can impact a person on a daily basis,deep trauma, stress, the whole spectrum.
And it's just, it's not a one size fit all.
And when you think about healthcare decisions that people are making about their bodies,it goes so much beyond.
a just simple, this is your option and go decide because we're forgetting about the humanand all of the factors that play into being human.
(04:40):
And the other thing that really, I think I noticed in practice and I think it really, I'mtrying to advocate for is for people to understand that decisions are not a moment in
time.
Like we think I have to make this decision.
Is it right or is it wrong?
And so often there's gray, but also it's a process.
It's not a pivot point.
Like there are so many things that come after that decision.
even when you make it, you have to deal with all of the emotional fallout, the sacrifice,the change that happens after making that decision.
(05:07):
And especially for women, when we have a biological clock and we have kids and we don'thave time to handle our own perspectives, we just kind of keep going.
You're laughing because I'm sure you've gone through this as we all have.
Of course, of course.
And it's that intersection between reality and truth and trust.
(05:28):
and all of the things that play into our day-to-day lives and then desire.
Like most people just, they end up doing whatever the fuck they want to do at the end ofthe day, but it's giving them the informed information and the choices and then the trust
to go out into the world and live the life that.
that they're going to live.
Yeah, it's funny that you bring up trust because I feel like, especially for women, I'msure it happens to men too, but definitely more so for women because we go through so many
(05:55):
changes in life and because we have hormones and because we go through puberty, we haveperimenopause.
And also if you've had kids, you go through pregnancy, you go through, like there's somany different changes that we go through.
And I feel like this trust piece is really, really hard, one, to trust our bodies, butalso we're sort of told what to do.
We're sort of told, you know, this is how you should feel.
This is how you should show up.
(06:15):
This is how you should behave.
And so we stop trusting ourselves.
We start questioning, did I do this right?
I must have made a mistake.
now I feel guilty.
I should have done that.
You know, and we sort of get clouded with all of these other feelings and expectations ofourselves.
And that really impacts how we
look at the future of our lives and our future decisions.
(06:37):
my gosh, that feels so true to me.
And it's like, well, especially for women, like, let's break it down for a second.
One, we have won the societal expectations.
And that's one thing, all of the should statements, the pressure that is absolutely...
can be crushing.
so I actually like started to ask myself recently, I like kind of had this epiphany thateverything I learned about being a woman, I learned from a man.
(07:04):
So let's like think about that and, and, and examine it.
So we look at even growing up at the time when, when you and I were growing up, all of theTV shows,
were written by men, so how they were portraying women.
The advertising was written by men to help women feel a certain way.
The medical research conducted was by men for men.
(07:27):
And then we think about our mothers and the societal expectations that came from men toteach them.
how to mother, how to show up in the workplace, how to be polite, to not be angry, to makepeace in the world without that full representation of the spectrum of what it means to be
a woman.
And as I chewed on that for a little bit, I was like, well, fuck, that's a big thing thatwe have to unravel.
(07:54):
So like, what's the main characteristic that defines womanhood?
And I think that's intuition.
But when that is so...
clouded or I guess I could say feminine energy is that that intuition those inner thatinner voice that inner knowing but when that voice is so clouded by noise by expectation
by the full plates that so many of us have it becomes really hard to know what's mine thisperson Ashley what's yours and what's coming from someone else
(08:25):
Yeah, for sure.
This happens all the time.
This is one of the reasons I felt so passionate about my career because I'm like, ofcourse, you know, why is it the case that someone at 40 could come to me and say that she
doesn't understand her period?
It's because we learned it in school at 12 years old and then nobody mentions it again andwe don't ask questions and we're not allowed to talk about it and we don't get any
(08:45):
information.
And I'm like,
You have a right to this information.
This is your body.
You should understand what's going on in your body.
We should be allowed to talk about it.
We should be allowed to ask questions and we don't.
And it's a very taboo topic, especially, I mean, I think everywhere, but especially incertain cultures, you we don't talk about these kinds of things.
And of course we're not going to trust ourselves.
We don't understand ourselves.
(09:06):
We think that what's happening in our bodies or what's happening in our minds is abnormal.
most of the time.
we're not, you know, even if you just think about work, right?
Like, or going to the gym, you know, you have your period or something and it's like, Istill have to perform at my best.
Nobody even knows.
I was actually listening to one of your podcast episodes when you talked about yourhistory with miscarriage.
Can I just say, first of all, was such a powerful episode and I'm so sorry you had to gothrough that, but I was listening to you talk and I was like, this happens all the time.
(09:34):
You will be sitting across the table from somebody and you will be going through somethingdevastating, something traumatic.
and that person will have no clue what you're going through.
And this happens to women countless, countless times.
my gosh, that is, well, first of all, thank you so much.
And it's actually interesting because the anniversary of my most recent miscarriage istomorrow.
(09:56):
And so I've been reflecting on it quite a bit.
And the interesting thing to me is like even coming down to periods.
So let's talk about that for a second.
I was this many years old.
the like late 30s, early 40s, when I started to understand the phases of the cycle, like,does it mean to be in the ovulation phase?
And what does that do for my energy and how I show up in the world?
(10:18):
And what does it when I'm in the luteal phase, what that does for me and like, andfiguring out like, once I started to track that, like, women are a 28 day cycle of change,
and that what is happening to us during our own cycles or the phases of the moon,depending on if you're post menopause.
It's really, really interesting in terms of how we view ourselves, how we respond tothings, our energy.
(10:43):
And noting that like I, myself loathing during like my Ludo phase is just like, started toknow that.
And then I could be like, that's that little voice talking to me.
And maybe I shouldn't make a big decision right now, or trying to schedule importantmeetings or things around like being in the opulation phase where I'm showing up a little
bit fucking cuter and happier.
(11:03):
And it's like, how are we not?
teaching this to our kids and also don't get me started on like hiding tampons up yoursleeve to go to the bathroom when it's more than 50 % of the population.
Yeah, yeah.
I have to say I am very strong about this in my family.
(11:25):
I have two teenage daughters and I talk about this stuff all the time.
My poor younger daughter, I was having a conversation with her the other day about
you know, sex and periods and all this stuff.
And we were talking, she was very uncomfortable, right?
And we're talking about it.
And I just like use all the words and I talk about everything very, very openly.
And she's like, do we have to talk about this?
Very uncomfortable.
(11:45):
My older daughter who's been through it all, she's listening from the other room, she's onher computer.
And she looks over and she calls out to us, well, calls out to her sister, you better getused to it.
She's not gonna stop.
And I'm like, you're right.
I'm not gonna stop because this is a conversation.
that needs to be had and needs to be had often and frequently.
And you need to know that the door is open for you to ask any sort of question.
(12:09):
And my husband bless him was like, I'm a father of daughters.
Like tell me what I need to know.
Tell me what I should say.
And I was like, yes, thank you.
know, because this conversation has to be had.
It's just so true.
I think about like, okay, so our responsibility as women who are waking up to all of thethings that were again, taught to us that were learned by men, like that.
(12:31):
is that's our culture.
It's a reality.
And by the way, I met faulting the women who came before us.
They did exactly what they needed to do.
And they didn't know.
They didn't know.
Yeah.
Or didn't know.
But we are where we are.
Now we have access to more information, more understanding.
And as women, we have the chance to change the way that we're teaching our daughters.
I mean, even coming down to like bullshit things like that boy's mean to you because helikes you.
(12:55):
Fuck that.
Those things, that's not where we should, that's not what we should teach our daughters toaccept.
And the same thing when it comes to knowing and understanding our bodies.
And I think that that's amazing.
You're an amazing mom.
Hopefully my kids will realize that at some point when I'm embarrassing them.
It was funny because my mom and I had this like tremendously open relationship and I was awildly curious child and said whatever came to mind and asked her tons of questions about.
(13:25):
periods and sex and other things and I did I got the information that she was capable ofsharing not going down to phases and all of those things and the shame that we carry and
yada yada but the information that and that she could share and then I went on to educateeveryone all of the seventh grade girls learned about Period sex everything for me and
that was my role and so my mom's girlfriends can thank her because they didn't have tohave those big conversations with their daughters because they had me but
(13:53):
A 13 year old girl is not the best educator about all the things that are happening andwill happen to a woman's body.
And like you said, like we're changing.
We change like going from starting your first periods to going into pregnancy and all thehormonal changes that happen there, then going through birth and then postpartum, then
(14:16):
carrying that, riding that wave into paramenopause, which is a whole nother thing and, andinto menopause.
Yeah, and it's the Wild West.
We don't talk about it enough.
And also, this is the other thing I think we don't talk a lot about.
And this is what I'm really interested in with my writing now with decision making.
We have a lot of, how should I describe this?
You know, there's a word for when something happens to you and you didn't want it, likesomething bad happened, someone dies, there's grief.
(14:44):
There's a word for this, right?
We experience grief.
We don't maybe in society know how to handle it.
We maybe don't talk about it enough.
But there's a word for it.
People understand that you've been through it.
And then you go through, you know, being a woman, let's say you've had a miscarriage andnobody knows.
And that's another very difficult thing to have a word, but not really know how todescribe it, not really know how to express it as something that I used to coach women on
(15:05):
a lot.
There's another really special kind of pain that no one talks about and no one has a wordfor.
And this is something that I'm really fascinated about and trying to give a word for inthe book eventually that comes out.
And that is the kind of loss that we choose because we make choices in our lives.
And in order to do something that is important to us, we also have to sacrifice somethingelse.
(15:27):
And so I'm at the moment calling it chosen loss.
And we don't really have a way to grieve that.
We don't really have a way to express that because we feel guilty.
know, like I chose to have kids and I would never change that choice.
I love my children.
I wanted my children.
I desperately tried to have them and still I gave up a lot and I would do it again.
(15:51):
But that doesn't mean I don't miss that independence, that ambition, that privacysometimes.
There are things that we go through.
I think more so as women because of the nurturing aspect, because of the hormonal changes,because of our body changes.
I'm not as productive when I'm pregnant.
Of course, I'm building an actual human in my body.
(16:12):
Why do I think I can be?
you know, quote unquote productive, right?
But it changes not just how our life unfolds, but also who we are.
We change along that process.
And that's the piece that I think we don't, not only don't talk about, but we don'tacknowledge, you know, instead we just feel bad about it.
I shouldn't feel this way.
Oh my gosh, that's so interesting.
(16:34):
like, so as you're describing that, I mean, so many things are going through my head.
Like for example, I mean, people saying things like,
Well, you chose it.
You chose to have three kids in rapid firing.
It's like, okay, yeah, I did, of course.
And I love my children, all of those things.
And I needed to take a walk.
And that need doesn't take away from that.
I wanted to be a mother.
(16:55):
and it's one of those things too, that when we have so much, again, like coming down tothat societal pressure and those expectations about how we should be and how we should
show up, that it doesn't create a lot of that space for the truth.
the radical honesty and authenticity.
really, like maybe let's look at like how we sugar coat things.
okay, pregnancy, we look at, okay, this is this wonderful magical time, you're growing ahuman, you've got the glow.
(17:22):
And then there's all of this redirecting towards building the perfect nursery and theperfect registry and all of those things.
But we are not talking about all of the ways that it all of that you completely lose whoyou are and have to rebuild that.
that you can do that with choice and intention, but when we bypass the truth aboutwomanhood, when we bypass the truth about motherhood, when we bypass the truth about our
(17:46):
whole selves, then we're missing the chance to grow together because through that truth wefind alignment, build trust with other people, and we can advance the conversation about
what our
actual needs are as a society, as women.
Yeah, and the actual needs is so important.
I call this the void.
Like I used to see this in practice a lot.
(18:07):
I still see it now, but I'll give you an example.
I used to work with fertility patients and they would of course be going through a lot inorder to have kids, right?
They would be trying for years and they would be poked and prodded and there's all sortsof things that happen in the fertility world that really don't get acknowledged.
Like this woman might be working and going to appointments every other day.
You know, like it's just so intense.
And so I would have these women who would get pregnant and then have their baby.
(18:31):
And then they would come in, say their baby's two months, a year or two years, whatever itis.
And they would be struggling with something, sleep deprivation, know, stress, all thethings that moms go through that are normal.
And they would all come and say to me the same thing.
I am so grateful that I have this child.
I don't want to complain.
And I would say, you have this child, yes.
(18:55):
and you're grateful, yes, and you worked hard to get here, yes.
And that still doesn't take away the fact that you feel this challenge, this pain, thismissing of your independence, this change of your body, this sleep deprivation, the things
that you've given up in order to get here.
That's what I call the void.
And it happens almost in every emotional complex, difficult decision.
(19:17):
I have someone who left her family and went across to a different country to marry someoneshe loves.
And she's like,
I love this guy, but also I miss my family.
And I'm like, both of those things can be true.
You chose one thing and then you feel something that you miss.
This is what I call the void where you fall into this almost like a well of like, I don'twant to call it depression because it's not medical depression, but it's almost like you
(19:42):
feel a little bit lost, a little bit.
unappreciated, a little bit untethered in this sort of void of a valley.
And you realize, I miss all of these things.
And what's really devastating to me is a lot of people will then look back and say, did Ido this wrong?
Did I make a mistake?
Did I choose the right person?
Should I have lived over there instead?
Should I have tried harder?
I should have done this instead of what I did.
(20:04):
And really what we need to do is climb out of the void on the other side and emerge intothe person that
made those choices, made those sacrifices, but acknowledges the pain and then fills thatvoid or climbs out of that void because we all feel it.
You know, even for people who choose something that they would, I have some patients whochose not to have kids, but then they see someone else who has a kid and it's, they made
(20:28):
the choice, but they also see this other person and they kind of feel bad because they'relike,
this person's sort of shoving it in my face or whatever.
There's all these emotions and they go into this void.
Did I make the right choice?
Are people judging me?
All of these things.
it's like, those emotions are valid.
Those emotions are real and we don't want to get stuck there.
And it's not just about being grateful.
It's not just about gratitude.
(20:49):
It's not just about comparison.
You're feeling emotions that are complex and opposite and that's okay.
And now how do we become a person that can experience all of those things, but also keep
connected to the vision that we had in the first place.
my gosh, there's so much there.
When I think about too, like even just the, I allowed to feel this way?
(21:11):
Am I allowed to ask for more?
Am I allowed to ask for something different?
And thinking about like even like marriage, for example, it's like, okay, so you've got,you're maybe not in an abusive relationship.
You've got kids, you've got money, you've got the things, you check the boxes.
and also realizing that it's not what you need.
as an individual person, and is it better than maybe someone else who's in a could beshittier situation, abuse, poverty, all of those things.
(21:40):
So we tend to say like, how dare I ask for more?
How dare I ask for different?
And I think that keeps a lot of people stuck, stuck in not listening to their own innerwisdom about what will work for them and what the path forward is to
joy, happiness, being on the other side of that void.
And I think I love the word.
(22:02):
I love the void.
I love the void.
Thank you.
I look at my life right now, like recently, you know, in the middle of a divorce and it'sdeeply painful and difficult.
And there's so many things that I'm grieving right now.
What could have been, why this is so hard.
How dare I, missing time with my children who I adore.
(22:25):
while simultaneously being like, wow, okay, I can take care of my needs.
I can do the things I need to do in the time when they're gone.
can dream a little bigger.
can dream differently.
I can do the things.
I can carve the life that I want to.
I'm climbing out of the void, but there is, you know, many people who are like, well, areyou sure?
(22:46):
Or other people who are like, yeah, it doesn't matter the nuance, but you know, at the endof the day, when we're looking at
women and our own expectations, we are allowed to choose different.
We are allowed to choose alignment and whatever that might look like.
You know, it's interesting when you talk about comparison or even advice that people giveyou.
(23:06):
It's very interesting because everyone's life is different.
First of all, we are allowed to choose whatever we want.
We get to play this game of life according to our own roles.
And I call this the outside problem because if I'm very
determined about what I want in my life.
And then all of sudden I go inside my house.
like, I know this is the right decision for me.
I am connected to myself.
(23:26):
I know exactly what's going on.
I feel all these emotions, but I'm clear that this is what I want and outside and peoplegive me their opinions and they tell me what they think.
And it's out of context because it's their life, their perspective, their opinions andtheir good advice.
All of a sudden becomes very bad advice for me because it is not my context.
And then I think, okay, how do I
(23:48):
say, how do I stay secure in me, trusting me and my choices when I go into the world,right?
Because that's when you see the comparison, that's when you hear people's judgments, whenyou hear people's opinions, and it's like, how do I, first of all, get aligned with
myself, which is making the intentional choice, and then how do I stay there when I getout into the world?
(24:12):
And I think that is the piece that we need more support in that area.
That's the piece that I'm interested in.
I love this.
And you have so much background and experience working firsthand with women through allphases of major transition.
So now, as you think about intentional decision making and what you're focused on now,what are the key tenets of that intentional decision making?
(24:37):
Yeah, there's actually a few.
The first one is really getting clear on what you want.
A lot of people don't know what they want.
And most of the time it's because we
are thinking about what we should want, what other people want for us, what is okay towant.
And sometimes we even pre-determine what we can have based on what our life context is,what our life circumstances.
(25:00):
And so I have this process that I use at home and we have this big white board, my husbandand I, draw all over this white board and I call it decision boarding.
And not like a vision board, but we actually create this board of like, this is all thethings we want, this vision board.
have a whole process of
like pressure testing it?
Like, is this what I want or is this what somebody else wants for me?
Is this what I want or yes, is this what I want or is this what I think I should have?
(25:26):
Is this what I want or is this what my ego is telling me that I need?
Because I want to make decisions based on the things that I actually, and sometimes it'sthe ego, right?
Like I did all my degrees because my parents, you know, they were
in a different country and they got everything taken from them and they had to move andthey're like, education, nobody can take that from you.
And so I had a certain belief about my education and that's okay.
(25:48):
And I recognized that I had that belief and it was important to me.
And also I wanted a little bit of, know, I want people to listen to me.
I want people to know that I know what I'm talking about.
But now when I don't, I left my practice and now I'm like, that part is not important tome anymore.
I don't want to make decisions based on whether people are going to listen to me or not.
I don't want to, I know I have something of value.
I don't want to make decisions based on
(26:09):
scarcity mindset.
I know that my parents went through a lot, but I'm in a different place than they are.
have privilege that they didn't have, you know?
And so you make these choices along the way and then you get to update your perspective.
And so we have this whole process of figuring out what we want, pressure testing it, andthen working as a team.
Because if you're in a partnership or in a family, you can't always do it alone.
(26:31):
Like I can't just decide this is what I want and not have my partner on board, right?
Like we have to be there for each other.
So it's process.
But I feel like that is the key, really understanding what we want, why we want it, andthen really moving forward.
So I love this so much.
so I'm very big in things like breathwork, sound, meditation, trying to tune in andlisten.
(26:55):
But where I get the most information is through my body response.
so trying to teach myself things like, okay, what feels like a yes and what feels like ano?
Does it stir up?
turn on excitement.
Whoo, like sure there might be nerves, but like, is this a yes?
Is this a yes?
And then comparatively, does it inspire dread, doubt?
(27:18):
Like you can feel the difference of like that positive and negative energy in your bodywhen you kind of clear out and turn, turn off those cute busy brains that we so often have
and, really trust.
But like being radically honest, radically authentic with yourself to determine like, am Ilying to myself?
What are the other factors?
(27:38):
And so do you have any tips to like, how people get into the real like, is this true?
Yes.
Well, first I'm going to say that you are unique in that not everyone knows how to listento their body.
everyone- a journey.
did not.
Yeah.
I made so many decisions out of fear, scarcity, misalignment.
And then when I showed up to my life and was like, my gosh, everything is not where Iwanted to be.
(28:03):
And then I had to un-
tangle every part of my life over the last several years.
then I would ask you, and I have some tips too, but I would ask you like, how did youstart listening to your body?
How did you learn to do that?
Because I don't think it's easy.
This is such a good question.
I think for me, just a little bit of background.
I had all the things.
(28:23):
I had started my own business.
was multi seven figure business and had, was married, had three little kids.
lived in a great community.
But for me, what I started to realize, I call it like my Jumanji drum.
It was just this constant feeling that something's not right, something's off.
And so I did a few things like I stopped drinking alcohol.
(28:45):
And that was one way to like, kind of carry my threads from one day to the next aboutinterruption.
And that allowed me to feel my feelings and notice, okay, how do I feel around certainpeople?
Are they making me feel good?
Are they making me feel like the ick?
And then I could stop doubting, is this me?
Am I the problem?
Did I say something?
Did I do something?
Cause I was never losing track of where I was in situation.
(29:09):
Also writing.
So gateless writing.
So another more context, Dr.
Rishma and I met on a gateless writing facilitator training in Connecticut in the fall.
And gateless writing is just creating a space where you can be radically authentic withoutjudgment.
And that
your inner voice and whatever is coming out on the page is actually separate from you.
(29:33):
It's art.
So that you can examine the things that come to mind and write them out freely withoutworry of the judgment or the critic so that you can start unlock radical truths about
yourself is one avenue.
And I use that as I was writing, I was realizing like all these spots where I didn't feelloved, where I didn't feel supported, where I didn't feel like I was in alignment with my
(29:55):
truth from my business to marriage to even
kind of coming down to how like, was I raising my kids in a way that felt truly authenticto me?
So I asked myself some hard questions and then learning to trust my body was the next partof it through yoga.
Like I couldn't have a busy brain and do a tree pose.
And so learning to kind of silence my body, but then tuning into like, okay, what was abody?
(30:19):
Yes.
Starting with little things.
Do I want pizza?
And I couldn't always answer.
It was like, I want pizza because I know they want pizza.
So be like, what?
No.
I want pizza.
What do I want on pizza?
Not because what I know that they want on pizza.
So anyway, starting to get just like radically authentic with the tiny things and thenusing those tools and those emotions to crack into the bigger things.
(30:41):
But you're bringing up so much here because I find so many women that I work with willsay, I know what everybody around me wants.
I know what every single other person around me wants because I take care of all of them,but I don't always know what I want.
And so everything you said, I think is it's a journey for all of us.
Even I had to go through this journey too.
The first tip I usually give people is to pay attention.
Pay attention to your body, pay attention to your reactions, pay attention to yourpatterns.
(31:05):
Just pay attention and do it in a way that is not judgy, that is not just be curious aboutyourself.
It's really hard sometimes.
It's really hard.
know, like when I yell at my kids, I'm like,
I shouldn't have done that.
And then you start beating yourself up and you start thinking all these negative things.
But really I'm like, why did I do that?
What bothered me about that interaction?
Like just pay attention that, I seem to always react in this kind of situation.
(31:28):
Or what I used to tell my patients, pay attention to your body.
You know, when your body is usually trying to tell you something, we just don't understandthe language that it speaks.
Like if you think about just your kids or, you know, a partner or a friend.
We all speak the same language.
Like we're speaking English.
Like my husband and I will argue sometimes and I'm like, we're both speaking English.
We just don't understand what the other person's trying to say.
And we're so busy saying what we want to say.
(31:49):
Your body has a language and we don't speak the language of our bodies, right?
So I usually say pay attention to your body and learn the language that it is trying totell you.
And this, is it a yes or is it a no?
This full body, a lot of people talk about this with intuition.
And I, for a long time, had a really hard time with this.
because sometimes my yeses and nos, and I've seen it in a lot of patients, especiallypeople who are like me, very like type A, you know, we have to do this, we have to do
(32:16):
this.
Sometimes it's like an expectation or a fear, or it's like, oh, I don't want to do thatbecause that makes me uncomfortable.
Does that mean it's a no?
Or does that mean actually I should pay attention to this?
So I always dial it back, especially if you're not a person who yet can do this and reallyunderstand herself.
I usually start with just paying attention without judgment, just notice, just be curious.
(32:37):
And then I ask myself, well, where is it coming from?
When does it happen?
What are the patterns?
Because then you can start to unpack.
Did I always get a headache at the beginning of my cycle or oh, do I always yell when mykids are rude to me?
Why do I think that that's being rude?
Maybe they're thinking something out.
Like it's sort of a curiosity of like, where did this come from?
(32:58):
Why is this a pattern?
Because this is something else that I think is super fascinating about the brain.
90 % of our decisions are subconscious.
90%, we don't even realize that we've made a decision, but our brain has already figuredit out.
And so being intentional with your choices, and we think we have conscious choice, butreally a lot of it is patterns and habits and past beliefs and things like this.
(33:20):
And so just asking yourself these questions, where did it come from?
Am I thinking, no, I don't wanna do this because it's a boundary issue, in which case Ishouldn't do it, or is it because I'm afraid?
You know, just asking yourself those questions and really sitting with it, being quiet,which was really hard for me.
Yoga is a really great way.
For me, I struggled for many years, but now I'm finally meditating.
It took me many, many years to get on.
(33:41):
get in touch with myself enough and quiet my brain enough to get there.
In fact, it was such a hard thing for me that I actually did a whole podcast episode onmeditation for people who can't meditate because I was like, I am struggling and I cannot
do this.
relate that in the show notes for sure because it's the same and so many people feel that.
Such a hard thing to do.
And then the last piece, and I think I already touched on it, but
(34:04):
is self-compassion, right?
And this is another thing that's really hard for many of us and myself included is justnot to judge myself and not to feel bad about anger, fear, know, any kind of emotion that
I'm feeling, not to feel bad about it.
And just to say, I'm feeling this for a reason.
Where is it coming from?
What is my body trying to say?
What have I experienced that is making me go through this reaction in this moment?
(34:28):
And just really feeling compassion for that.
And I feel like if we can get to a place where we can understand our body, our minds, andjust have a little bit of quiet and space, which we don't, we'd never take time for that,
then I think we can really get into, tap into that self-knowing, that self-confidence.
Okay, so here's my question for you.
I agree with everything that you're saying.
(34:49):
It is so important to...
Be gentle with ourselves.
We don't do that.
Like we're so in our critic and so stuck in judgment and expectations and all of thosethings.
then, but what I'm wondering about is in a time when, especially for working parents andtalking mostly about women now, when our plates are so full, managing everything from kids
(35:12):
to careers, to those expectations, how do you create the space?
to be gentle, to listen.
This is such a good question, such a good question.
And I don't know if I have a good answer for it, but I'm going to tell you what I do.
I look at my coping strategies because there are things that I do when I'm feelingstressed that probably are just helping me manage my stress.
(35:34):
And some of them are good for me and some of them are not good.
And so usually what I do is I start by asking myself, what do I need right now?
Not necessarily what do I want, but what do I need right now?
Do I need to be scrolling on my phone?
Do I need to take a nap?
Do I need a walk?
And sometimes I listen and I do what I need and sometimes I do what I want, right?
Like sometimes I'll just, you know, have the chocolate or whatever else that's a copingstrategy for me that has helped me manage stress.
(35:59):
But I spend a lot of time really building coping strategies that fill my cup, so to speak.
And I don't just mean self-care, take time for yourself in that superficial way, but like,what do I actually need?
And sometimes,
You know, for a long time it was sleep and I refused it.
I felt like I was going to jail.
I was like, I want time alone.
(36:20):
My kids are finally asleep.
I mean, now they're teenagers and they stay up later than I do.
But sometimes when they were young, I was like, I need this time to myself.
And it felt like I was going to jail.
But I recognized that for me, sleep was the thing I needed.
And it was what I call a domino effect where everything would go to shit if I didn'tsleep.
Like everything would just fall apart.
(36:42):
I would eat.
poorly, I would yell at people, I was grumpy.
Everything just fell apart.
I wouldn't want to exercise.
Where for my husband, for example, exercises his domino thing, right?
Like if he exercises, he sleeps well, he eats better.
And so we have to find the thing that helps us build capacity, build energy, build thespace, the time, the ability to handle all of the stuff that happens around us.
(37:07):
So when people tell me, you have to fill your cup, you have to put your mask on before youput everybody else's, and I was like, you know, it's so hard to hear that because my kid's
up at three in the morning.
I'm not going to be like, sorry, I need sleep.
Like, I'm getting up.
getting up with my kid, you know?
So it's not easy to do that.
But then that morning when I wake up super tired, then I would say, what do I need today?
(37:30):
And then if I am able to answer, not every day, can I answer that question well or can Ilisten to myself?
But if I'm able to listen to myself, I can say, it's okay if I'm not productive today.
It's okay if I lie down.
It's okay if I leave the dishes in the sink because what do I need today?
I need rest.
And so that's how I'm creating space.
It's not easy.
don't
I'm not perfect at it.
(37:51):
I'm getting better as I move into sort of perimenopausal years, I'm realizing I have lessoption.
Like I have, I cannot do it unless I'm listening to myself because this is like, it's thewild west.
It is no joke.
Your body takes over and all sorts of things are happening.
And I'm like, I don't have a choice.
I need to listen to myself now.
And so it's kind of empowering to say, this is what I need.
(38:12):
And I feel so much better when I do it.
Wow.
I love that.
That, I mean, that's such good insight in itself.
And then
and trying to be honest with yourself about the need versus the want.
And that's something that I'm going to definitely take with me just to try to figure outlike, can I create a little bit more space?
How can I give myself just a break?
And that's just a break in terms of like sitting on the couch or taking a nap, but justrecognizing that there it's okay to not be fully productive.
(38:40):
It's okay.
And gosh, women are so hard on, we're so hard on ourselves thinking about that endlessto-do list and the things that are left.
on it instead of focusing on the things that you did do.
We tend to think about the things we didn't do, but when you think about what you need, itreally changes the conversation because it makes it about your whole self.
Yes.
(39:00):
Creates that space and creates that ease.
So that's amazing.
So I read this recently and I want to share it with you that there are three species onearth that go through menopause, elephants, killer whales and humans.
And the reason for that is that the
Women then who are done being baby makers can then lead, guide, and teach.
(39:24):
And elephants, for example, they pass down their pathways and where they're walking todifferent watering holes and finding their way through the Sahara.
They pass down that knowledge through the generations.
And same goes with killer whales and their hunting strategies.
And I don't know if you've ever watched the nature shows about
(39:46):
killer whales and how they hunt, it's like, they're mean, they're fierce, and they'refucking effective.
And they teach each other how to do that.
And then I started to think about women and how we have, over the course of time, stoppedvaluing the crone, stopped valuing the woman once she's not super young and prime baby
making years and noting that like women in their 40s, women in their 50s, like one, likehow much wisdom that they have and then going into the...
(40:15):
grandmothers and the older women and how much we're not leaning into that knowledge andthose resources and that truth.
Well, I'm going to stop and let you react to that.
have so much to say about this.
my gosh.
You know, I come from a culture where we revere the expertise and wisdom of age.
And I don't think that that's the case in many cultures.
(40:37):
And I do agree that a lot of society right now, you know, we definitely stop valuing.
the wisdom that comes with age and expertise.
But if you look at traditional cultures, like even if you just take the birth example,when women go through birthing, breastfeeding, they're going through, labor, delivery,
when you look at traditional cultures, traditional history, women are surrounded by otherwomen.
(41:00):
They're surrounded by grandmothers.
They're surrounded by their aunts.
They're surrounded by their sisters.
And it's a community effort.
to bring a child into the world.
It's a community effort to feed this child, to take care of this, to raise the child,right?
They say it takes a village because it definitely takes a village.
And then you move into sort of, you know, North American society where we're so isolatedand we have to do everything on our own.
(41:25):
And I have to say, this is not how we were meant to be at all.
And so I feel like this is something that
I had the privilege of attending many, many births because of this, the fertilityexpertise that I had, and it was a doula for many women.
And it is such a powerful experience to see what women can go through in that period oftime.
(41:45):
But it's also interesting to see that over the years and over time, as we become moreisolated, women have stopped learning how to believe in themselves, how to trust
themselves.
They get scared.
They don't believe that their bodies can do it.
And I've seen women go through
incredible things in the middle of labor.
Like we have a strength that we don't even realize is there.
(42:06):
But when you have other women there who are supporting you, who are telling you, you cando this, like, you know, generations of women have done this and you can also do this.
You have that support that is so needed when we feel those doubts.
Everyone feels doubts, right?
So this is sort of a, I'm so glad you brought this up because I think it's such animportant piece.
I also noticed
(42:27):
that there is a transition that's happening as women start to have kids older.
And we go through this sort of fertility jar.
A lot of my patients would be in their late 30s, early 40s.
And so they were going through this period of time where they were delivering and havingbabies, but also then approaching perimenopausal changes in years.
And it is such a hard transition that I think no one really recognizes.
(42:48):
Like historically you have your kid in the teenagers or 20 years old, and then you become40 and you are...
wise and you have your health and you have, mean, life expectancy was different, but youhave a different sort of role in society.
And now we're at this other place where, you know, you're 43 and you have a toddlerrunning around.
It is not easy to be going through.
(43:10):
I tell my teenagers all the time, have you seen that movie Inside Out?
You know how they talk about how you're under construction in puberty?
And I tell my daughter, I'm like, you're going through, you're under construction forpuberty and I'm under construction on the other side.
Yes.
a new system being built.
Yeah.
my god, I think that like one of the most I'm going to go like real, real authentic rightnow.
(43:32):
So one of the most disappointing things about the birth of my first child was looking ather dad who didn't know what to do or how to support me.
And I was like, this is what we've created in society, like, and it was a really traumaticbirth.
And it's this is nothing to him.
This is about this.
(43:53):
isolation, where it's like, okay, you got go to your birth class, and that's going toequip you for how to deliver a baby.
And then in my case, I went into labor, and my water broke and was act of labor and somuch pain.
And he didn't know that body experienced how to support me.
And so then go through the epidural labor slows down all of those things ended up having ashoulder dystocia birth.
(44:18):
And what that means is, you know, like the
time to push.
It was time to push because I was, you know, fully dilated, but didn't feel any pressure,wasn't, didn't feel ready and had been laying down all night and all of those things.
And what started as a very fast, after my water broke, everything was moving fast until Igot the epidural.
I didn't ask for Pitocin.
I was given Pitocin without my consent.
(44:38):
I actually didn't want Pitocin.
They gave it to me anyway.
And then, so we're in a situation where my body is not ready.
They're telling me to push.
And then they used a vacuum.
to get the baby out.
So I don't know exactly what a vacuum looks like, but basically they're trying to pull itout of the body.
Yeah.
Suction.
And then in that process, after three hours of pushing when I'm completely drained, haveno support, he doesn't know how to be supportive, her head comes out and her shoulders get
(45:08):
stuck.
And so I remember this nurse jumping on top of me and pushing down on me and she's lookingat me and she's like, you need to push.
And she's on me.
So anyway, they got her out and held her up and she's gray and all of the things came withthe help.
(45:29):
My body was impacted.
She was fine, luckily.
But I had, this was the situation for me.
I didn't know from my provider until I got pregnant with my second what happened duringthat birth where I knew the word shoulder dystocia.
And then I joined like a shoulder dissociation support group online and then could seeeveryone else's experiences and their shared grief and loss and fear and all the things
(45:53):
that happened to varying degrees of outcomes.
And I think about how much different that birth experience would have been if I had had mysister or my best friend or someone behind me with their legs around me at a very female
centric experience where it could have been just
(46:13):
better, better than my daughter.
And maybe she still would have gotten stuck, but I don't think so.
It's so interesting because I don't know all the stats in the US, I'm in Canada, but inthe US especially, but even here, births are so medicalized now.
And talk about having a hard time trusting yourself when you're told you have to dosomething for the health of your baby, for the safety of your pregnancy, you do it.
(46:36):
I think doctors are well intended, but they don't often attend natural births.
They don't often labor women the way that they, you we used to labor women back in the dayor the way I would if I was a doula.
And I've seen so many births.
And I feel like there is a process that maybe we try to avoid the pain.
We try to avoid the length of time because it takes time.
(46:58):
And as soon as you enter the hospital, like that clock has started and they're like, yougot to get out of here.
You know, it's a very different model.
of birthing and even just laying down, putting your feet in stirrups.
Like this is not the right, this is not the best position for the mother.
It's the best position for the doctor, but it's not the best position for the mother.
And so when you think about how we labor, of course we need interventions.
(47:23):
Of course we need C-sections in emergency situations.
Of course we need all of these things when something happens.
But a lot of women don't understand the process before they've had a delivery and theirhealth providers, I think also
whether they're not educated, whether they're not experienced in going through this theway that women's bodies were meant to do it, there's vast, vast differences in how a woman
(47:46):
labors when you're going through a natural birth.
So for example, I had my babies at home and I had to do, I mean, I was in healthcare, so Iknew a lot about this, but I was also terrified because my mom had a very similar
experience to you.
She was given a lot of intervention.
And so I was terrified knowing what had happened to her.
But also with my medical knowledge, I was like, I want to do this.
(48:07):
And of course, if there's an emergency, we can get to the hospital.
had very qualified midwives.
I had very qualified doulas.
And so I was very confident in how my labor was progressing.
But everybody, everybody had a comment about how I should do it, why I was crazy to do itthis way, and how long it was going to take.
My labor was 40 hours.
(48:28):
If I was in the hospital, somebody would have intervened.
I knew it was going to be long.
It was long.
She wasn't super well positioned, but I was thankfully lucky to have that opportunity tolabor the way that I was meant to labor.
We had two very safe spurts.
I know this could be very controversial because I'm not saying anything bad abouthealthcare or healthcare providers.
(48:49):
I think they just don't learn or don't experience a natural labor in that same way thatsay a midwife would.
And so many times we think that it's an emergency, it might not be.
And there's all this risk associated, right?
So everyone wants to cover their themselves.
What if something happens?
to.
mean, so we structured the health care and it makes sense.
(49:09):
It makes sense.
But also the US has a lot of negative stats, know, like really bad stats.
you think about it, like there's got to be something that we can do differently about thiswhole process.
And no wonder we don't trust ourselves.
No wonder we don't know.
how to do this and how to understand our bodies because we're not taught, we're notexposed.
(49:30):
This is why actually when I used to do law, I used to do a labor and delivery course fordads because I was like, okay, you should have women there, yes, but also the dads want to
be involved and I wanted my husband there and I'm like, you should know what to do.
You should follow my lead because it's not your body.
you should do what I say, but also you should know what to do.
And so during my labor, he was filling up the tub and he was holding me from behindbecause my arms were so tired.
(49:54):
I was gonna, I couldn't hold my baby.
And he was like literally holding me up because he had learned all of the things my bodywas gonna go through.
And I used to do a whole course just for dad.
This is how you can support the mother through labor.
And a lot of them nowadays really want to be involved.
My dad's generation, they weren't even in the room, but now they really want to beinvolved.
(50:15):
And they think, well, I'm not really useful.
It should be another woman.
What am I going to do?
And I'm like, actually, you're the person that your wife is looking to or your partner islooking to because she doesn't know any of the doctors in the room.
She needs to look at your eyes and just be like, I have someone here in my corner.
And that is an emotional piece, an emotional security that is really hard to get in thatlabor situation.
(50:39):
So yes, we should be surrounded by women.
But if you have a good partnership and that partner wants to be involved,
He should learn what you're gonna go through so that you can do it together.
I love that.
That's such a good perspective.
And it's just interesting to me to think overall about like what sort of Western societyhas created in terms of leaning on interventions and how that takes away from us leaning
(51:00):
on ourselves.
And that doesn't just translate to the birth process.
That's everything.
And now as women are sort of coming to terms with this, I think that we have thisinformation generation.
have Gen X.
is they're on social media, they're sharing information and they are seeing the lack ofresources and information that they have available to them for things like paramenopause.
(51:22):
It makes it so that as we're addressing that issue around paramenopause, menopause andresources, that then we look back to how our lack of support in birth, pregnancy,
postpartum.
so that we can as a collective say, no, this is not the right way.
This is not the best thing for our bodies.
This is not the best thing for trusting ourselves.
(51:43):
And I think that the paradigm will shift eventually, but it requires advocacy, support,sharing information, and starts with ourselves and our own ability to trust ourselves.
Ask those questions.
Is this true?
Is this not true?
What are my motivations?
Is this out of fear?
Do I have the right information?
And then...
making the choices from.
And I do think things are changing.
(52:04):
I have seen a lot more research on women.
I'm definitely not even close to how much we need, but it's changing.
are strong voices out there that are advocating.
And now with internet, social media, you have so much more access to information that wenever had years and years ago.
So I do hope that it'll change.
And I do hope that
the experience for my daughters will be different than it was for me.
(52:25):
for me, it was different than it was for my mom, but it needs voices.
It needs people to speak up for themselves and to ask questions.
Yeah.
We need to be the grandmothers that we were designed to be.
that the way, just like the killer whales, the orcas, just like the elephants, that we getto now choose the path that we forge for our daughters.
(52:48):
And that's a really beautiful and empowering.
Yeah, absolutely.
It all starts with us.
No pressure.
No pressure.
I am so glad that we had the chance to connect today.
Our conversation took us in to the depths, into the void and out the other side.
(53:10):
And I feel so hopeful knowing that you're in the world, doing the work that you're doing,raising the daughters that you're raising and that you're my friend.
Thank you.
It's so always so lovely to talk to you.
Thank you so much.
I loved this conversation.
how can people, okay, wait, actually two more questions.
There's one question that I ask every person that comes on the show and that is, what areyou doing to show up unapologetically?
(53:33):
Ooh, I love this question.
Well, I'm really taking care of myself lately.
I am really trying to make space and time to take care of myself.
I've been more consistent at the gym.
I've been trying to love my body and love my mental health.
and really just spend that time recognizing what I need and listening to myself instead ofignoring.
I'm trying to walk the talk is what I'm doing.
(53:55):
And it is really exciting and powerful and it feels luxurious, but also it feels reallyempowering.
I love that.
Let me know how it goes.
I will then walk the talk too.
How can people find and connect with you?
and listen to your podcast and your Ted Talk and all of the things that you brought intothe world.
Tell us everything.
(54:15):
Thank you.
My website is probably the best place, livingxo.com.
There's links to my podcast, my Ted Talk, I have free downloads, everything, livingxo.com.
Thank you so much for being here today.
This has been just an incredible experience.
So for those of you tuning in, please...
Smash that follow button, leave a review.
(54:36):
can contact us anytime at hello at unapologeticallyyours.com.
Want to hear from you, want your feedback and thank you so much for tuning in.
I'm Ashley Logan.
This is Dr.
Rishma and we are unapologetically yours.
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.