March 20, 2024 • 73 mins
The captivating life-story of Buba Galadima, one of Nigeria's prominent political figures since 1978 unfolds in this intense interview. As a founding member of the CPC, a chieftain of NNPP, a spokesperson for the Atiku 2019 Presidential Campaign and a former Director General of the Nigerian Maritime Authority, Galadima's political career is marked with diversity and longevity.
This episode parses through Galadima's intriguing journey, his battles in and out of the office, his fears, triumphs, and his distinctive relationships with significant figures of Nigeria's military and political circles. Notably, his bond with General Sani Abacha, his face-offs with key politicians like General Buhari and Senator Hope Uzodinma stand out.
Tracing the course from military tribunals to holding positions of influence, Galadima reveals shocking, behind-the-scenes happenings and information leaks which led to his detainment 38 times. His experience and advocacy against corruption in the political system has primed him with the knowledge that Nigeria's true issues are not sectarian or ethnic but deeply entrenched in the political class's vested interests.
Discussing about the transient nature of power and status, the guest provides a unique look into President Buhari's term and the trajectory of Nigerian politics. He believes power or position does not equate to authority or respect, emphasizing that his influence extends beyond formal politics to his interactions with everyday Nigerians who consider him with love and respect.
Piercing the Veil: Inside the All Progressives Congress (APC)
In this episode, the guest shares a powerful discussion on the inherent politics within the All Progressives Congress (APC), the unfolding economic challenges, and surfacing societal matters in Nigeria. Opening about his sidelining by two key figures within the APC—Buhari and El-Rufai, he condemns the unjust practices and the blatant disregard for the party's constitution.
The discussion takes a poignant turn as the guest reveals the impact of these elite players' actions in erasing his influence. However, this isn't just a personal narrative, but a glimpse into APC’s political machinations and Nigeria's systemic corruption. He advocates for reformation and justice, aiming to fuel listeners to question the political status quo and seek change.
This gripping episode dives into an in-depth conversation with a seasoned political veteran about the convoluted world of Nigerian politics.
He emphasizes the need for hard work and patience and critiques the impatience of today's youth. He gives an honest opinion about religion, wealth, and their influence in politics, and reflects passionately upon his time serving under late leader Sani Abacha, whom he regards as the ideal Nigerian president.
Offering a different perspective on the controversy of Abacha's suspected loots, he stands firm on his defense for Abacha. The concluding part of the conversation discusses the current political climate, remarking the current government as a reflection of the Abacha regime due to the prevalent appointees that served under Abacha.
This eye-opening episode promises a perspective-shifting narrative, unveiling insightful tales from Nigerian politics, both past and present.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Music.
(00:07):
Good afternoon, sir. Good afternoon. My name is Adesua Kiwa Osake.
And good afternoon, everyone. Today, I am here with Buba Galadima.
He is one of the founding members of the CPC, currently a chieftain of the ANPP,
(00:29):
one-time spokesman for the PDP and former Director General of the Nigerian Maritime
Authority, which is now NIMASA. Is that correct?
Yes. But I feel like I've missed a lot in between there because you're also
a part of the Constitutional Conference and you have been involved in politics in Nigeria since when?
(00:54):
1978. Since 1978.
Okay, that's a very long time. so would you
please like tell us a little bit about yourself you
were born in uva right what year
because you told me once there's a bit of a discrepancy of birth dates well
thank you very much for inviting me onto this program highly delighted to sit
(01:20):
and discuss with professionals like you in the media.
About myself, I had gone through many rough roads in life, but I would want to say that I felt good.
I have not done badly. I'm one of those God-chosen and favored people.
(01:44):
I was three times nominated and elected to be a member of the Constituent Assembly in 1987.
I was elected to be a member of the Constitutional Conference in 1994.
I was also part of the 2004 National Conference that was convened by Jonathan.
(02:06):
I held several positions in life, one of which was I was director of Federal Polytechnic Mubi.
I was chairman of Nigeria Ranchers Limited, a joint project of about 500 million
US dollars between Nigeria and Brazil to develop the cattle ranching in Nigeria.
(02:28):
I was also a director of Delta Steel Company for two years. I was a director
of a jacuta steel company for two years. I had been director of two banks.
I was also a director of an insurance company, general assurance,
what do you call it, company for about seven years.
(02:50):
Of course, you also said and confirmed that I was director general of the National
Maritime Authority. One thing, I was one of the most investigated public servant in this country.
When I left, when Abacha died.
(03:10):
And Abdus Salam came in, I had a problem, which was a subject of discussion at the OPUTA panel.
You know how Uzo Dima now, the present governor of Imo State,
single-handedly removed me as director general of the National Maritime Authority.
Single-handedly. Because of reasons that I would want journalists to ask him
(03:34):
so that when he says, I will come back on the stream to reply him.
So you want Hopu Zonema to answer why he single-handedly removed you as the
DG of the Nigerian Maritime Authority.
Yes, and this issue was an issue before the Opota panel, discussed by General
(03:55):
Sabo, the Director of Military Intelligence, and Hamza al-Mustafa,
the Chief Security Officer to General Sani Abacha.
But to cut a long story short, even after I left, there was nothing Kema Chukwe,
as Minister of Transport,
did not do on earth, falsehood, truth, to nail me, such that courageous and
(04:25):
honest people like me will never hold public office.
I was investigated eight times by the Obasanjo government.
Eight times. What would pay to the whole investigation was when a gentleman.
One of the very few elder statesmen of this country, Dr.
(04:46):
Christopher Kwalade, was asked to investigate certain situations during Obasanjo's
government. and in his submission he's alive he's alive,
get the documents from him for posterity, he wrote that I should be reinstated,
(05:07):
even though Obasanjo personally wanted me nailed because of my proximity to General Abacha.
How did you become proximate to General Abacha?
Because Abacha knew me. We were the three musketeers, northerners in Port Harcourt.
General Zamani Lecourt was the military governor of River State.
(05:28):
General Sanya Abacha was the brigand commander. Then in River State,
throughout those years that I was there, and I was the man that controlled the.
Hold the cow's horn for people to milk.
Because that time, there was no agency of government in the whole of River State
(05:50):
or ministry that has got the kind of funds under their control,
as I did. And I was investigated.
I was set up severely by government, and they never found me wanted.
So when the position of the Director General of the National Maritime Authority
became vacant, Abacha said he was looking for an honest, upright, hardworking person.
(06:14):
And he could not look farther than myself.
And this is why I had a torturous tenure because I was hated by the minister
who wanted to do certain things that I will never do and wrote secret memos
to General Abacha to remove me. Abacha still refused.
(06:37):
It's a long story that will take me years to narrate.
I had guns on my head. After all, you should know that Obasanjo put me underground
four floors in Park Lane No. 1 Lagos, Frank Omenka's dungeon.
You went to Frank Omenka's dungeon?
I was the prefect there.
(06:58):
What year was this? Chained me, 2004, because I organized...
What do you call stolen mandate against the 2003 election?
And there I invited, I was the chairman of the organizing committee.
I invited General Buhari. I invited Chukwumeka Odumegu Ojuku.
(07:23):
I invited Chukwumeka Olofalae. We invited Lajib Alarebe Musa.
We invited Dr. Tunji Breathwaite. and a host of progressive leaders,
not progressive by name, by our own assessment that time, we were leaders of
the opposition and they were all in town.
So they just speak to me that night.
(07:46):
The present senator representing Ilorian Central, Mustafa Saliu,
will tell you better when you invite, when you speak to him.
Was he there when they picked you? He was there. He was there.
Yeah, he was there when the SSS picked me.
And they locked me up in Kwamele Kado.
(08:08):
And in the guest house they kept me, there were over 50 armed plainclothes policemen.
And they chained me.
Look, when they interrogated me for 72 hours without a break.
You will be wondering how can a human being
(08:30):
be interrogated for 72 hours i will
tell you they had three teams of investigators
three teams these ones will come for eight hours i will be dozing they will
be asking questions immediately they finish their eight hours as if they are
going and i i should be allowed to rest as they were going other people were
(08:53):
coming in and And they will continue for 72 hours.
They didn't give me a sleep just to break my resolve.
Unfortunately for them, they were not able to do that.
And they now said, because they asked me one question inadvertently or deliberately.
They asked me, then Al-Mustafa was being tried for treason, that he was organizing
(09:18):
a coup from the prison. So they asked me whether I knew al-Mustafa.
Being the honest person I am, forthright, I said yes. We are from the same place.
Because he comes from Unguru, while I come from Joshua.
Only 65 kilometers separate us. And we see ourselves as the same people.
(09:43):
I said, okay, since I know al-Mustafa.
A party to that coup. So myself, General Adeka, and several military people, 39 of us were arrested.
38 of the 39 were all northerners.
That's how I got myself into that Framco-Mekas dengue.
(10:07):
And the world should know how I left that cell.
The Germans, the Germans, And the EU put a pressure on Obasanjo's government
and said, I am a political prisoner.
That what they were doing to me is political vendetta.
(10:29):
And they put that pressure.
But I would remember the last time I met the military tribunal,
they set up a tribunal of 10 generals and two other members.
Late, Labaraburno was DIG. and I don't know whether Dabo Galadima is still alive from Plato.
(10:49):
He was director of businesses in Lagos. They were members of the panel.
When they brought me in chains and put me in front of them.
I started looking at them because they had the U shape like this.
So I started looking at Labarang Murno, who was a DIG. I put my eyes straight on him.
(11:15):
After some few seconds, he had to put off his head because I thought in his
mind, because I knew him,
we knew each other, we stayed in the same area in Meduguri when he was inspector of police, 1978.
So you were friendly. So he just did like this because he thought that I will
(11:39):
call his name. I didn't, but I was using psychology.
So I look at everyone, each of them, I look at you straight into your eye. You have to blink.
You have to blink, including the major general who was chairman of that tribunal,
somebody from Benden. What year was this?
2004. 2004. So, 19 years.
(12:03):
So I followed this all. All by that look alone, I knew that I have disarmed them.
So, but the last time, which I would want to say.
No, I have to go back to something. Each time they bring me from the dengue inside,
because I wouldn't know the day or night or which day, Sunday,
(12:28):
Friday, I wouldn't know.
It's blank. And they give me a bottle to urinate inside.
They give me some pop to pass if I want to go to toilet.
And nobody is allowed to say a word to me. for all the time that I stayed in
that hall. The solitary?
More than solitary confinement. You remember that four floors down.
(12:52):
This is in Ikui. Ikui number one park lane. It's there up to now.
That's where they carry people they don't want.
Up to now. A lot of people died there without notice.
I believe Abbas Sanjou was also held there during Abacha's era.
No, Abbas Sanjou was taken to Gashua, my place. He was eating fish.
No, before then they held him they did they
(13:14):
did so is it
turn by turn is that why you guys was it
you know you know you know you know this one
of the one of when i see people in power yes they do certain things i just laugh
i just laugh right because they don't know that no condition is permanent what
(13:37):
they are doing to to others now when they are in power. Will happen to them.
Will definitely. I tell you, we've told Buhari people. We've told Jonathan people.
We've told Abasajo people. Where are they?
So if you find yourself in a position of authority, try to do what is right.
So look at me. I was never a minister, even a counselor. I was never.
(14:03):
I never held public office to amass wealth. Look at when you want to do this interview.
We don't even know where to improvise.
I live in a two-bedroom house for the last 30-something years.
You don't even know whether I rent it. Even the uncle said it's my own.
I said, no, it's not my own. Belongs to my friend. We are still in court.
(14:25):
Even when the courts gave the owners the house, they still don't believe it. We don't have.
Because I didn't steal. Whatever is the case, let me land on that issue.
The last day we sat was, I was brought in nine o'clock in the morning and I
was under interrogation. Not interrogation.
(14:47):
Trial by the military tribunal up to nine o'clock in the night, 12 good hours.
We had only one hour break.
I keep wondering, even now they arrest me and put me in such a situation as
an old man, I would want to go in peace.
That time I can stay for 12 hours without feeling anything.
(15:11):
But now I keep on imagining that I'm still an activist. If I find myself in
such a situation, How do I manage?
So when they finished, I raised my two hands because I have to do like this.
I'm chained like this, chained like this with crossbar.
And I sat on a chair, single chair like this. So I said, I want to speak.
(15:36):
The president of the tribunal, one military officer from Bendel,
very useless, unintelligent person.
You don't recall his name? No. No, I know, let him listen to me.
I dealt with some of them. Parbeni, we had a skirmish with him, FBI Parbeni.
(15:56):
He went and stole a lot of money. He gave a lady and the lady ran away to America.
He married the little girl and said that he infected her with gonorrhea. He can't go to US.
He had his own problem now.
This is poor Benny from Bayosa. Bayosa. A very corrupt person.
(16:16):
He was the one that, together with the, what do you call him?
Together with the Hupuzo Dima wanted, removed me.
Hupuzo Dima removed you in what capacity? As a businessman. He was a businessman.
Acting on behalf of others. I see. And he removed you from...
Because I refused to give him money. 5.7 billion.
(16:39):
I said, let them write a letter. authorizing
me to do i refused is there
this was the 96 no 98 98
98 yes so that's an
addition let me go back to that i asked the military the the the president of
(17:01):
the tribunal asked me so okay mr galadim how do you want to say i said sir you
know all this you are doing you wanted to link me to this school.
And you also wanted to find out whether General Buhari was the one that was instigating me.
From the SSS investigation up to this tribunal. All of them grabbed attention.
(17:28):
You cannot find any of the two. I don't do anything on the instance of another person.
Whatever I do, I do it because I'm convinced that what I am doing is correct and right.
So Buhari, take him, if you want to arrest him for coup, go and find other sources.
(17:48):
Buhari had nothing to do with that coup.
I thought Jaffa claims it was a phantom coup. No, listen.
The second is that you wanted to find out whether I was part of this coup that has been investigated.
I am not. Since I am not, there is nothing you can do for the three days that you are trying me.
(18:10):
You've not found a grain of evidence that I'll spot a parcel of it.
So you are under obligation.
To release me. Under obligation to release me. There is nothing we can do.
And did they release you? They released you? Listen.
(18:30):
So the man said, he just banged the table. He said, look, we are not here for
politics. We are not this. We are not that.
Then General Lemu, of blessed memory, cut in and said, look,
sir, this is a life and death matter.
The man should be allowed to speak his mind. Then there was a clash. within the tribunal.
(18:54):
There were four southerners. I mean, there were five southerners and seven northerners.
So it became a north and south issue.
I was shocked. In a tribunal that was set up by government.
That is how, I don't know what happened. One day, I was just inside.
(19:16):
So General A.T. Gibran, the man in charge of the military, Dangion, he's still around.
In fact, I learned he was supposed to be made a minister. I don't know what transpired now.
Very fine, handsome, military, intelligent military officer.
He's an inter-officer. From where?
(19:38):
Well, originally from Kano, but he was born and brought up in Plato.
Okay. So, if the man wanted to help me, What he will do is that when he comes
in the morning, he will ask them to pull me out of the dengion and bring me to his office and I sit.
When he's going home, they carry me and put inside the pit and he goes home.
(20:01):
At least I will never forget this. I've been looking for him since I left that place to thank him.
I had not seen him. And one thing again that Nigerians need to know,
the issue about us is not religion, it's not tribe.
There were two young officers who come to pick me every morning.
(20:25):
And I can say this because I'm sure they left the army by now.
Young officers, two of them.
There is Land Rover full of soldiers in front, 505 in the middle,
and two pickups full of soldiers.
And with siren, they take me like governor to the tribunal venue.
(20:49):
Each time they bring me out, they will ask all the soldiers,
rank and file, to move away.
And they tell me, sir, they have not yet found anything against you.
They are trying to use you to give yourself up. So be strong.
(21:10):
Keep on to what is right. We know that they are only doing this for political reasons.
Those two young officers captains, two of them none of them is a Muslim.
And they had they had that passion of patriotism and justice in them so when
(21:33):
you sit down in the office and giving instructions, you wouldn't know what happens,
outside with those that give the instruction, if I tell you that if I want to
know anything that is happening in the villa, I will know I had done that since.
That's why when I speak, those in power who knew what I was talking about,
(21:53):
they are shivering. How did I know?
But that's why SSS has picked you up multiple times. 38 times.
SSS has picked you up 38 times. Yes. I thought it was multiple times, but 38 times.
Yes. SSS, police, they interrogate me, they question me, they do this.
38 times. so this is life I've gone through it and it is important for you young people.
(22:25):
To understand something, that no condition is permanent.
And you should not be in a hurry. At this age, if you like, you can call me, I'm 71.
If you don't want, you can say I'm 75 when you add those four years. It doesn't matter what.
I am still healthier than all my classmates that held the public position,
(22:52):
made a lot of money, in life.
They don't have the kind of peace that I have. This is your second time of coming to this house.
You've seen how still people revere me, how they come in and go out.
There is no house in the whole of Abuja where people drive in and out like this
(23:15):
house. And I have nothing to give.
Sometimes I hardly feed. But you give people free food. People in there that
just... God brings the free food.
Like you, now if you are going, you have to drop.
You think I'll just talk like this and you go away. No.
So this life is very easy. And people should take it easy.
(23:38):
Oh, we will take away this man's victory by force because we are in power.
I just laugh when I hear it. You can do it.
But that is temporary. like what is happening with our neighbors here in niger
i just pray for this government,
that if they start the war which they want to do by all means they are forced
(24:02):
they are forced to do this war should not last more than three days if the war
lasts three days and extends to one month,
Hollywood knows either a mutiny happens in the army or a revolt will happen within Nigeria.
So if they want to be swift, 30 days is the maximum time they will stay.
(24:26):
Once they don't do that, but they should ask themselves, how did the overthrown
government itself come to power?
Did they remember that the Buhari government forced this government on the people
of Niger, Niger, went out of seven, six, eight regions in Niger,
the man overthrown, won only in one region.
(24:48):
And then when this was happening, the day this government was announced they've
won election, I said on BBC,
Radio France International, and Deutsche Welle, that this government will not
last because they will come the way, they will go the way they came.
And I gave them two and a half years.
(25:09):
I'm afraid to talk sometimes because 99% of what I politically say had been correct.
So I want to ask about your relationship with Mama Dubari.
We are the best of friends now. You are still the best of friends. Of course, why not?
He thought I would die. He thought maybe I would die if I didn't get positioned.
(25:34):
I'm looking healthier than him. and I have more respect than him.
If anybody denies the respect I have, let's attend a public function with a
public officer and me, a proletariat, a common person,
and see who do people gather around and joke with and talk without me giving a penny.
(25:57):
Without them knowing what I have to give.
You said that Buhari set Nigeria back a hundred years.
This was somebody who was your best friend.
You were picked up at least, you were picked up multiple times because you were
supporting him both publicly and in your personal capacity.
(26:19):
And then, as you said, no condition is permanent because if I remember,
you switched to the PDP, joined the Atiku team and in 2019, Buhari's SSS.
I didn't. You didn't switch? No. But they picked you up?
Yeah, they wanted to pick me
up. They didn't pick you up? They didn't get me. It was misreported? No.
(26:40):
Because you know, there was a... There's a difference between picking me,
detaining me, or having me.
Okay. You must have made an attempt, but you didn't see me or you didn't get
me. So what about in 2019?
No, because I saw their moves and I was alerted. So I left the house, leaving all my phones.
Because if I have my phones on me, and people should know that if you commit an offense, fence.
(27:04):
Don't go with the known telephone on your body because they will zero on you
wherever you are. So I left.
And I saw the movement. I know when they want to pick me each time. I know what they do.
So I'm an experienced person in that. An experienced political detainee.
Well, so now the article story.
(27:29):
You know, we formed a splinter group.
We left the APC and formed a splinter group called Reformed APC.
R-A-P-C. and I was made the chairman.
That group included Senate President, that group included Speaker of the House,
(27:50):
Saraki, Tamwul, Konkoso, and about five governors also.
Yes. We formed the RAPC and this wisdom came when elections was getting there, we had to align.
Do we still work for RAPC or we work for PDP?
And we entered into an agreement an alliance with the PDP.
(28:16):
So they found it expedient to give me a role. And the role is to present their face.
If I become a spokesman, it will be the face of the RAPC. That is how we fought the election.
And we fought that election and up to now, I believed that Atiku won that election.
(28:36):
It was denied him. And you can never tell.
Atiku should also search himself why he's always been denied victory.
He needs to, seriously.
He should remember what he did to other people in 2003. and 2003.
They should go and ask Mohamed Lawan of Quara.
(28:59):
They should ask Abu Bakr Aoudou of Kogi. They should ask Abu Bakr Hashidu of Gombe.
They should ask the person who contested with Senator Jibreel Aminu.
He did certain things that is
haunting him. This is why when you are doing certain things, be careful.
You may have to pay yourself or your children or grandchildren may pay.
(29:21):
You know, astaghfirullah, God does not wait now for us to go to heaven before they judge you.
So, me, you know, that is why I don't want, I don't contest election,
not because I can't win or I'm not popular.
I am the most popular. All political office, I mean, party offices that I held,
(29:44):
I won by popular vote and almost 90% out of 10 candidates whenever I contest.
But I can't contest general election because in Nigeria, they can bribe your
father to vote against you. I'm sure nobody likes you more than your father or your mom.
So people now can take spaghetti and indomie to vote.
(30:06):
So they are now eating their spaghetti. They will eat their spaghetti for four
or eight years that they collected.
So that was how the issue of PDP came in. I was never a member of the PDP.
That's fair. And I kept on correcting this. You press men and journalists kept
on... Putting it on you. Yes.
(30:27):
No, I'm glad you're able to correct it here. No, tomorrow someone will come
and ask you the same question.
But you are a member of the CPC, and you are a founding member of the APC.
Yes? I was number four signatory. Of the six signatories that...
Nine. Of the nine signatories that create APC, you are the number four.
(30:49):
Yes. So you're a significant, significant name in the Nigerian political space
and in Nigerian political history, especially in the fourth Republic,
but you live a very quiet life.
I'm not, you say I'm quiet? Huh? Well, you're not quiet in the news,
but I mean, you live a, a very humble life.
(31:09):
Like when I first met you, you described it as being something that the Sardana
of Sokoto, Sardana of Sokoto was like a very humble, no big houses that you
do it because of religion.
Am I correct in saying that? Well, thank you for the accolades.
(31:33):
It's your judgment. Yes. But I would want to say that one doesn't need to show off.
Let other people tell you that you are this.
You don't need to say it. Let your actions, deeds, and demeanor make people
acknowledge you as a leader.
I am a leader. I consider myself president.
(31:57):
You know why? No. It's because the people believe that I am an honest person,
that I'm a leader to be associated with.
Even those that do not come to me because they are looking for something from governments.
In a subtle way, whenever I see them try to confide in me that don't blame us for not coming.
(32:24):
So don't worry. Humility is the art of good living.
You know, do you think like, because I feel like this is how your best friend,
Buhari, also presented himself and said that this is also why he was going to
curb corruption because he was honest and he was humble and he only,
(32:48):
you know... You know, that is why I like the Tinipu government. Why?
From the campaign. Yes. Up to now, have you ever had anybody in the Tinbu camp
that talked about fighting corruption? They are honest.
You may not like it. Oh, you had any of them? Who?
(33:11):
Not that I can recall. They never pretended they are going to fight corruption.
They even never pretended they are going to be Democrats. That's why some of
them are thinking of taking over states from those that won.
They never pretended.
So, you know, you cannot read the man's mind from the construction of his face. But me, I did on Wuhan.
(33:40):
And I have witnesses. Witnesses. First witness is Sule Hama,
our leader, the Director General of the Buhari Organization.
From 2002 to 2015, I kept on telling him to be careful because this man,
this is what he will do. Go and interview him.
(34:04):
He will confirm this. But he kept on.
He is the most intelligent human being that I had worked with in my life. Sule Yahya Hama.
He was the secretary to government of Kano state from 1979 to 83.
How old were you? I was not existent. I was not born. He was Abacha's political
(34:27):
advisor and he held several positions in life. Very intelligent man.
Unassuming. Whenever Buhari commits a blunder, I come to him and say, son, look at this man.
How, look at what he did. I complain, I complain. Then he will calm me down.
(34:49):
And this is where my weakness also came. He calms me down.
Buba, I say, yes, in our culture, when the king commits an offense.
Those people around him take the blame.
Such that if the king survives, even though they fall, he will now raise them up.
(35:16):
So we should continue to take Buhari's inadequacies and shoulder them for him.
We know that he doesn't have at all, nothing.
That is why. Two, Buba, why are you shouting? Leave him.
After all, when he forms government, We are going to run the government.
(35:40):
Who does he have to run the government?
I said, no, no, no, no. He said, no, no, no. How?
I said, no, this man is just waiting to get rid of us.
Suleyama didn't believe me. But he kept on because the way he will explain any
situation, you can't believe it.
It doesn't matter how intelligent you are, you must be carried away. away.
(36:02):
So, the day Muharrem was announced president, he came to the national headquarters of the.
ANPP to do his acceptance speech to Nigerians. We were in the front row.
I was number one, Selahama was number two, and others lined up like this.
(36:23):
So, when he finished, he came to us.
He came to us and started greeting me. He gave me a hand like this,
took took off his head and called me Bubba.
He gave his hand to Sule, took off his head. I was watching him because I'm
very observant. He shook him and said, Sule.
(36:43):
So when we left at about after 5 a.m., everybody drove to Buhari's house.
Sule Hama wanted us to drive there. I said, no. He said, why? I said, no, sir.
Didn't you see that we are out?
He said, why should you say that? I said, yes. Yes.
Now, how does, what the, for the last 30 years that we've been in trenches with
(37:07):
Buhari, what's the name he called me with?
He said, he calls me engineer. Today, he called me by my first name, Buba.
Well, how does he call you? It's now down on him that Buhari always calls him Dokaji.
It's a title given to him by the Sultan of Sokoto.
(37:29):
Today, he called you slave. He has stripped us of all those titles we have.
That means we are out. He didn't believe me.
Are we not out? Why are we not out?
And this is not even because of me the board of trustees of the APC never sat,
(37:50):
since 2015 up to date they never sat?
Board of trustees of the APC you should ask me now, because of me why?
You have to explain that because Buhari didn't like my face didn't like my guts
But we went one day for a meeting of caucus of the APC,
(38:15):
of which I was a statutory member by my position as a signatory to the formation of the party.
And he saw me. He was so upset. The moment he saw me, he changed face.
So everybody, they are sitting on a high table. So those of us,
I don't know, common people sitting, in the hall like this.
(38:38):
So everybody, we lined up to come and greet him, president.
When it came to my turn, he gave me a hand and he did like this.
And I passed. I came and reported to my boss, he wasn't a signatory.
Reported to Tony Momo.
Then we came for another meeting. There, he saw me again.
(39:00):
He caused a committee to be set up under the present president.
Under Tinubu. Under Tinubu.
With the directives that that part of the constitution, which authorizes the
signatories to the formation of the APC, should be expelled from the constitution,
(39:23):
such that he doesn't see me anymore.
As I speak to you, Tinbu has never submitted that report.
So he's still my friend, right? Who? Buhari or Tinbu?
Buhari. He's still your friend. It's okay, since you say so. No, I'm not.
When I'm going to see him. Because we intend to go and greet him.
(39:44):
In Dharia? Yes, and tell him, sir, we thank God for bringing you out of that hell alive.
We'll go and tell him. We know that when we go there, he will not allow us.
So we'll carry you to report. From there, I will speak.
(40:04):
That's a very... I mean, so would you say there are no friends in politics?
Interest. They're only interests. I hear that a lot from politicians and people
in our political system.
Unfortunately, some people don't even know their interest.
To even define your interest and live by it needs an ingenuity.
(40:26):
I don't think Buhari knew his interest. That is why when he was coming,
every Nigerian was clapping that Nigeria is going to be an El Dorado.
When he was going, everybody was clapping. hoping that, thank God,
he's leaving us in one piece, except for those who passed away during his time.
Everybody was clapping that Buhari was going. Now, you know my problem now?
(40:50):
I will be most disappointed if there is any government that will come after
Buhari and Nigerians start saying it is better Buhari.
Because of the kind of things I said about Buhari, I will not be able to walk
on the streets of Nigeria.
If they compare and say Buhari is better, that's my problem.
(41:11):
Because you don't think there can be a government worse.
That's what I said before. You don't think there can be a government worse than
Buhari's government? Yes, that's what I said publicly.
So if one becomes worse than him, may God save my soul.
Buhari doesn't think at all.
I don't want to say much, but if he thinks,
(41:32):
he wouldn't have given a blanket paper and sign his signature and give error file,
he went, the party sat down and decided on who should be members of the interim
APC National Executive Committee, which was agreed by us.
Like Errafai, you know, all things.
(41:54):
You know, I told you on Aitipu that people have been hunted by their own shadow in their past.
These things that happened to Errafai, he has not seen anything from what he
did to other people but biting them.
And there are still people like Errafai, people like Ganduji.
Tinimu doesn't understand. He will soon understand.
(42:17):
The tiger doesn't change his stripes. Well, it's okay. Okay,
but when you put your hand inside fire, you will know. What about Gandu Jay's fire?
Hmm? What about Gandu Jay's fire? Gandu Jay? Yes. And? Yeah,
you know, what has he done?
He's okay. You will see his handwriting very soon. I'm sure you guys,
(42:38):
I'm sure you have a relationship because you have a relationship with Kwankwaso,
Gandu Jay and Kwankwaso. Kwankwaso person? Yeah.
And I don't shift the ground when I follow him because I'm not following him
because of money. I follow you because of what I think you can do or who you are.
And if I promise you I will follow you, God do us part.
(42:59):
So I've promised to conquer Saul. I'm going to support him.
Even if he does not help, without a counselor, we were together. We fought together.
Even now, as they are rumoring they want to take Kano away from him,
even if they take, we will continue together.
Let them tell they don't know that they are only adding to his popularity,
(43:25):
so if and that's what Denduja is working on he has compromised everybody around
the president to create that picture,
I learned that even the president is not personally disposed to that but they
want to force it on him one advice I will give through him to the president
okay and he should know this is the wisdom of our ancestors,
(43:47):
that But if you are a chief or a king, when everybody clubs the same quarrel,
you are in trouble because they are isolating you.
So the best way to move forward is that all those close to you should never have one view always.
Let them disagree. That is what the Oiboman calls divide and rule.
(44:09):
If they are all tagging together, it means there is something they are doing
behind you. whether individually they come or they come as a group.
And that is what every ruler, president, governor, or chairman should be careful of.
So Dan DeJay wants to take Kano back, as you say.
(44:31):
Through the back door. Because there is nothing that they presented in court
that can even remove a councillor, let alone a governor.
They went to court and said Abba Kabir Yusuf was not a member of the NNPP.
What's their concern? That's a pre-election matter.
(44:51):
And no other party can question that except an NNP-interested, NNPP person.
And it's pre-election. They went to court and they said there was violence in
over 1,296 police units.
In Kano, they presented 32 witnesses.
And for every police unit, for you to prove that, you have to present,
(45:16):
what do you call it? You have to present a witness.
And all the witnesses, 32 of them that they presented, None of them was uploaded
before going to the tribunal when the tribunal closed accepting petitions.
But even if there are proper witnesses, what is the quantum of those 32 witnesses?
Less than 20,000 votes.
(45:40):
If you remove it from 128, we still have an edge of over 100,000.
So how? And if they now, some people believe that, look, Konkoso should not be allowed to breathe.
Is this the appointment who said the poor should breathe? It's Tinobu that said
(46:01):
it. Let the poor breathe. Don't suffocate them.
Let the poor breathe.
Don't suffocate them.
Why can't they allow us to breathe? Can't they take lesson?
Why do we politicians and people in authority don't understand?
(46:21):
2019, this same Abba Kabir Yusuf won the governorship election in Kano.
You don't know? With 28,000 votes.
They took it away. They said, once you take it away, Kongosor is finished.
Kongosor came with a bank. He won, according to them, with 128,000.
100, enough to win a governorship election in some states.
(46:42):
Without a councillor, without a chairman, without a member of assembly,
without a senator, without a governor.
Only our brain.
So what stops Konkoso if they take away the governorship from Kano? What? Out of sympathy.
After all, they suppressed our votes over 600,000.
(47:03):
If the authorities don't know, I'm telling them this now.
And their own votes of 800,000 is less than 200,000.
After all, if they were in government and Kongoso was able to defeat them like
this, how can they go to tell the president that, look, Kongoso didn't win the election?
(47:24):
They were in government, oh, where we had nothing. And with all the money Ghanouja
stole, if he says he's not a thief, let him allow investigation to go on.
Now he's using federal agencies to stop his being investigated in Kano,
as if nobody, no intelligent person in Nigeria can understand what they are doing.
(47:46):
Look, I'm sorry.
I'm sorry that I have come to the inevitable conclusion that I may not see the
Nigeria of my dream in my lifetime.
That's a very, very sad thing. I may not see. that's why I'm keeping quiet have you lost hope?
(48:07):
Completely not because of those that are in power or seize the power but because of your people,
there is nothing under the sun that I have not seen before this election Nigerians
decided to take Indomie 200 Naira and voted for rocks across the country,
(48:27):
BBC Voice of America America, Dechambele, Al Jazeera, CNN, they had requested to interview me, TRG.
I said, no. All the things I needed to say, I said to them before the election.
I have nothing new to say. People are hungry. Let them die. It's their fault.
(48:49):
Not earlier? This thing they put grain and do like this to remove the dirt.
You know that one? Anybody that buys that one knows that if you put water,
the water will fall down.
It cannot sustain the water. So what is the problem?
I'm supporting Telugu 100%. You're supporting Telugu? 100%. To deal with Nigerians.
(49:15):
People like you. So that when the next election comes, I will now see whether
when people bring money, you will vote for them or you will do your conscience.
I want to say that I think most, a lot of people vote their conscience,
regardless of if there's money involved or not.
Even if I'm talking about my demographic, even young people in Lagos did not vote for Tenro.
(49:39):
They were the closest to him and he did not win the election there.
It's true. I live in Lagos. I don't know anybody who is my age who voted for
Tinugu who's not related to him.
But I'll blame... What are you laughing at? I blame... No, it's true.
I don't think it's fair to blame us.
(50:01):
You guys have the power. You have the money. You have the knowledge.
They said power belongs to...
Those who take it? Huh? Those who take it? Power belongs to the people.
So what are you doing? If you're coerced and compromised, which means you've
supported what had happened. You've supported evil.
(50:23):
Supported evil? Yes. Because rigging election is evil.
This life, for how long are you going to live? You are what age?
I'm 30. 30. Can you live for 30 times 30? No.
Shemi will die one day. If you don't die today, you may die one day,
even if it's 200 years. Yes. So, what's the issue?
(50:47):
Look, there will be time to talk. Let them finish.
I want to ask because, you know, you say you're not in it for the money and
you're not in it for the power. Hmm?
So, you're not in politics for the money and you're not in politics for the power. Hmm.
So, why have you been actively involved in politics since 1978?
(51:12):
Justice. I want justice for my country, for every citizen of my country.
I have about eight children, your age and above, who have read books from one cover to the other.
Master's degrees, medical doctors, IT experts, and what not.
(51:37):
None of them could get a job. I live, I rent a two-bedroom house for 30-something years.
If I needed money, I was director of Delta Steel Company. I was director of
a Japanese steel company.
I was director general of the then NIMASA.
I was project engineer, secretary, schools building committee in reverse.
(52:01):
Over 500 million naira, then, which is over 500 million US dollars.
I was chairman of Nigerian branches with the paid up capital of over 500 million US dollars.
I was director of two banks I was director of an insurance company if it is
(52:23):
the money that I had wanted,
I could have soiled my hands and I wouldn't be able to look at you straight
into the face and talk to you because I would be afraid of my past,
is there anything more than freedom rest of mind.
If people like us it's shameful that at my age whether 71 or 75 I'm still in
(52:46):
trenches fighting for the good of this country,
if you make me minister for example or CBM governor what is it that I will do
which I have not done what is it marry young girls like you or drink beer or wine,
or take pepper soup even the food I eat now I have to do it with caution food,
(53:10):
if my children take drugs and
I'm always on the way to rehab centers or I always keep an eye on them.
It's not good for me. That's why we have to fight to make sure that the society
is cleansed and there should be justice.
Just because we don't have money, you will have no access to good things of
(53:33):
life or because we have no parents that are placed in strategic position.
Don't you think that this can breed revolution?
Do you know the kind of revolution that is taking place in West Africa,
Guinea, Mali, Burkina, Niger?
For the coup in Niger, could you have known that the French take,
(53:57):
take, take, take uranium from France,
I mean from Niger, and almost for free, and that if they are paid the exact
amount that they sell that uranium in world market, Niger would have been a Dubai?
Our eyes open by day, and we speak because we had experience, we know.
(54:21):
So we tell you, If we don't tell you the history of this country,
what are you going to fall back on when we are no longer here?
And we will not be here one day. Very soon, maybe.
What do you feel particularly sad about the, you know, drug usage in the north
and the insecurity that's going on in northern Nigeria right now,
(54:45):
especially under Buhari?
There seems to be a deterioration. The truth of the matter is that nobody wants
to tackle the insecurity. So, let's leave it.
I wrote a paper I can bring you. 2011.
Delivered a lecture at NIPS, Nigerian Institute for Policy and Strategic Studies.
NIPS just delivered a lecture.
(55:07):
There were over 50 retired and serving generals.
There were over 50 police commissioners retired and serving and above.
There were intellectuals. I received a standing ovation.
And everything I have said in that paper has come to pass.
Let me tell you, if I look at you straight into the eye and say,
(55:29):
look, if you are not careful, so-and-so will happen to you.
Just pray to God very, that it does not.
So the truth of the matter is that no government is serious in doing that. And you see our clergy.
Than the illiterates, our clergy. The religious clergy? Yes.
(55:52):
They are only after money. And these are people who will tell you that,
look, don't vote for Mr. So-so-so because he doesn't have money.
Is that money that qualifies you to be a good leader?
No, I don't have money. Can any of those who have money talk to you the way I'm talking?
Is there anything you can say that can give hope or motivation to the younger ones?
(56:14):
Not necessarily about revolution but about how we engage the political system.
Should we join political parties? Should we start our own?
Should we, you know, do we need funding? Like what can young people do?
Because I feel that we can't all just jackpot. We can't all run away.
(56:37):
Well, I told you that I joined the politics under 30. And by 1979,
I was 27, I was nominated as minister from my state.
So, but we have a difference. When I was in school, then, I was also assisting my parents.
(56:57):
When my parents passed away, I started assisting myself.
Now I have children.
They don't expect me to still look after them, instead of them looking after me.
That is how the society has degenerated.
If you want to make an impact, you shouldn't be in a hurry to make money or
(57:22):
to be in power just with like a flash of lightning.
You have to work hard for it, such that in trying to work hard for it,
you can gather experience.
You will not depict faults.
(57:43):
You will not the plus and minuses of situation.
You children of nowadays don't have that patience. and it is that patience that
is needed to catapult you to whatever position you want to be.
Forming a party on your own and starting from your own level doesn't assist you.
(58:06):
You have to join existing political parties and you land on the job.
That does not stop you from aspiring to the highest position in the land or
the political party can provide. wide.
But do you feel like these places are so rotten that if you go there,
instead of you being good in the system, the system will make you worse? No.
(58:27):
That means you didn't come with the principles.
If you have your principles, which you have nurtured and concretized,
it doesn't matter where you enter. It will not change you, like me.
Anybody that knew me when I was monitor in 1959 in primary school,
(58:48):
And when I was monitor, 1966, in secondary school,
when I was chairman of the Basic Studies Students Union and chairman of ICSA Hall in ABU,
knew that Buba the Ladima has not changed all these years.
I've not changed. My yes is yes. My no, even at the point of death, is no.
(59:15):
The military knew that. the SSS knew that the police knew that so you have to
have certain principles if you are dying die for a cause.
Ask, you know, do you have regrets of being part of the Abacha administration?
(59:38):
Uh-uh. I had several answers to this question.
For me, Abacha was the best president that Nigeria ever had because he held this country like this.
And Abacha, I will tell you, this secretary, your federal secretary, who built it?
National Assembly. Who built it?
(01:00:01):
Who completed the villa? So he did well with infrastructure projects.
Infrastructure. Throughout a batch of four years plus, the dollar was 84 naira.
How much was four? It never changed. You can plan for your business.
Who among all these leaders can beat his chest to say he kept the dollar at
(01:00:24):
a certain amount of money without changing for six months?
But at that point in time, you know, dollars should have gone down with our oil sales.
So keeping it the same is only an achievement because of what has come afterwards.
Do you know that he was under sanction?
Yeah. Do you know that the oil was being sold for $15 under a butcher? You forgot?
(01:00:50):
I didn't forget he was under sanction. Maybe you are too young to know.
Yes. And he was under sanction. No one is taking our oil. They were still taking the oil. No.
Maybe stealing. And you can't attempt to steal during Abacha.
There was sanity in the country.
Can they take your hand back on the street during Abacha? Yes.
(01:01:16):
Abacha? Yes. Well, you didn't know, please. You said you were 30.
Yeah. When did Abacha...
When did he become president? 1993. From 93 to date, how many years?
30. 30 what? 30 exactly. 30 exactly.
30? Exactly. Which means you were just born. And you were just born,
(01:01:38):
you knew what was happening.
No, I didn't. Okay, let me ask you like a specific question.
Franco Menka, the torturous dungeon who you were in, he came up under Al-Mustafa.
That's part of the Abacha regime. Yes. so the people who were empowered later became your torturers.
(01:02:03):
Let me tell you something you may not understand. Okay.
You see, it's your intention that drives what you do.
Abacha had a vision for this country, integrate this country,
formed a constitution where nobody wanted to promulgate a constitution,
where no section would feel oppressed, suppressed.
(01:02:27):
That was Abacha. This is why he adopted a modified French system.
That you have a head of government, you have a prime minister,
such that at every point in time, when the president comes from the north,
for example, the prime minister comes from the south,
the prime minister manages the government by law, by law,
(01:02:52):
and the president only manages the currency, the defense, and the economy.
That's power sharing. That's what you're thinking. I may not agree with him, but he has his vision.
Which of the presidents has any vision? Now I ask you, tell me.
I don't want to do comparative.
(01:03:15):
You can't compare because you didn't know about his regime, you are told.
No, I studied it. You studied it from the point of view of his enemies. Not just of his enemies.
Did you study it from my point of view? Huh? Did you study it from my point of view?
I also studied it from the point of view. Did you study it from my point of view that supports you?
(01:03:35):
No. But you are an abacha or a pointee? Yes.
You are a deity. The Saradona of Sokoto said something. Okay.
Before you were born. Okay.
He established the new Nigerian newspaper and the radio television kaduna.
He said he has to establish his own trumpet so that he blows his own.
(01:04:00):
Because the other people are too busy blowing their own such that they will
have no time to say what he's doing.
So for you to now get anything about Abacha, you have to go to Abacha people
who believe in him or in the alternative,
bring those who are writing against Abacha and bring to me and pay us on a television
(01:04:23):
debate and let them say what they had done better than Abacha.
And I will tell them why Abacha is better than each and every one of them.
The mere fact that he stepped on toes does not mean that he was a bad man.
I think like human rights abuses is not the same as stepping on toes.
(01:04:43):
But did Abacha tell you that he was voted in by you?
Did he tell you that he was voted by you? What do you mean? Voted into power by you? No.
Who voted him? He took power. By? Of course.
A mandated power. Barrel of the gun? Yes. So he never pretended that he was a Democrat.
These people who are pretending to be Democrats are worse than Abacha.
(01:05:06):
Abacha didn't take anybody's election. But he did take lives and liberty. Of who?
Of who? tell me now no accusation tell me.
Okay we can talk about the ones that were no no
no no no now we are we are getting
we are getting closer to the facts okay who's life Okwita panel attempts on
(01:05:28):
Alex Ibru Abraham Adesanya Kuria Tabiola Liberty of even someone like Bayo Oshinowo
who's not well known but spoke at the panel this he was accused or he was it
was confirmed found that he did it.
Well, it was an accusation because he lost his life. So you have no point now
(01:05:49):
since it's an accusation.
You must have tried him even in absentia to establish that.
Because these are his enemies. That's why I'm telling you that you heard from
the other side of the coin. You didn't ask the other side.
I'm asking the other side now. So I'm telling you the other side that is known.
If they have any evidence, we need it. Abacha can be tried posthumously and
(01:06:15):
how about Abacha loots you know I had spoken about this several times Abacha didn't loot any pen,
You are too young to understand. He was storing the money. He was storing the money abroad.
(01:06:36):
Why don't we go full hog to probe all governments, including Abacha's own?
Those who call Abacha thief, they are worse thieves.
I don't mind. And let me tell you why Abacha. I was a member of that government,
Not sitting in government as minister, but I was part of that government.
(01:06:57):
And I knew how much I left in the coffers of the NMA, which was wiped out in two months.
Stolen. I'm not calling names.
Wiped out in two months. And I want to ask you, do you know what is sanction?
What is it? What do you understand by sanction? I understand that because Nigeria
(01:07:22):
was not a democracy, the West and international community put sanctions on Nigeria,
trading with Nigeria, doing business with Nigeria, buying Nigerian oil,
or even in terms of sending donations to Nigeria.
So the sanction essentially means that there's a reduction in inflow of money into Nigeria, right?
(01:07:43):
It's okay. You don't even understand what it is. Let me tell you what it is. Okay.
Sanction is stopping people from getting what they need for their daily life.
That is what the Tinobu government had done against Niger. You didn't know that? That is only one paper.
As I speak to you, I know some people that are Nigerians who are carrying food
(01:08:06):
and everything to Niger. He can't stop it. He doesn't know.
He doesn't know. No, you mean that towns that are divided by just a street,
the other side of Nigeria cannot eat food or cannot sell commodities.
They will pass it to their brothers or in-laws across the other side.
(01:08:31):
So we are just fooling ourselves. Let me explain to you the so-called Abacha loot.
Abacha was appropriately advised by Saddam Hussein because he was a veteran
of sanctions by the West plus Gaddafi.
They told him that whatever you will do since they are putting sanctions on
(01:08:55):
you establish dummy companies across the world not linked to you and gather
as much money as you can that can last to your country's import for at least six months.
Are the monies that were deposited into certain accounts.
Every country of the world, including the U.S., does it.
(01:09:18):
If they want to do a clandestine activity in Nigeria, they don't bring money through the bank.
They have some established contacts that can give money here and take there.
That is what had happened.
And that time, they could not trace those funds that Nigeria was using to survive.
(01:09:40):
And to maintain our currency at 84 naira per dollar.
And people, because they hate Abacha, they say Abacha loot.
Let anybody come and debate with me.
And those countries did not like Abacha because they stood against him.
That is why they are fighting the Nigerian military.
So, for example, like the money that was kept in Lichtenstein and Luxembourg,
(01:10:05):
350 million, 250 million.
Was it in Abacha's name? I mean, Mohamed Abacha fought for...
Nothing in Mohamed Abacha's name.
No account was traced to Abacha's family.
Mohamed, he put the account in the funder. Never.
He petitioned the court for them to not release the money, claiming ownership to the funds. Never.
(01:10:29):
Do you know about Gudu? I do know about Gudu, yes. You know him,
eh? Yes. When you finish interviewing me, when you interview him, he will tell you better.
He's your minister. He's a minister. He's a butcher man. Yes. Can he deny a butcher?
No, he can't. So he's so good that you make him minister of budget and planning.
Thank you. No, I didn't agree.
(01:10:52):
I didn't agree that I was good minister. Did you write a petition to the Senate
not to confirm him? Huh? Because he was a butcher man.
Did I write a petition? Did you write to the Senate not to confirm him?
They weren't asking them any questions. I didn't think there was a point. So you agreed?
No. Okay, I see what you're saying. I see what you're saying.
I actually agree with you, yes. If I'm not active, then I am...
(01:11:13):
Passive agreement. You know, in my culture,
when somebody is dating a young girl and you as parent want to find out her
consent, you sit her down and ask her whether she loves that man.
If she doesn't speak, that is consent. Really?
(01:11:35):
Maybe you ask my friends here. My own culture is different.
You don't need to speak. if she doesn't like she will say no but if she keeps
quiet the father will go ahead to consummate that marriage,
so so this government for example this Tinipu government is also an abetcha
(01:11:58):
government I see that now yes is it not apart from how many ministers,
apart from Bakutu who else,
go and do your research you are a journalist list.
The Tinubu government is an Abacha government. I don't know.
I say so is an Abacha government.
(01:12:19):
If they can accept Abacha people, it means they share something in common.
And they need to get Abacha people.
Because how Abacha maintained peace is a big school for studies.
Well, I'm going to talk next to Abacha's former chief security officer.
(01:12:41):
El Mustafa. Yes. Ask him when he knows before the Lajima.
Okay. Thank you so much, sir, for sitting with me. I think I've taken a lot of your time. Thank you.
Music.
Music.
(00:07):
Good afternoon, sir. Good afternoon. My name is Adesua Kiwa Osake.
And good afternoon, everyone. Today, I am here with Buba Galadima.
He is one of the founding members of the CPC, currently a chieftain of the ANPP,
(00:29):
one-time spokesman for the PDP and former Director General of the Nigerian Maritime
Authority, which is now NIMASA. Is that correct?
Yes. But I feel like I've missed a lot in between there because you're also
a part of the Constitutional Conference and you have been involved in politics in Nigeria since when?
(00:54):
1978. Since 1978.
Okay, that's a very long time. so would you
please like tell us a little bit about yourself you
were born in uva right what year
because you told me once there's a bit of a discrepancy of birth dates well
thank you very much for inviting me onto this program highly delighted to sit
(01:20):
and discuss with professionals like you in the media.
About myself, I had gone through many rough roads in life, but I would want to say that I felt good.
I have not done badly. I'm one of those God-chosen and favored people.
(01:44):
I was three times nominated and elected to be a member of the Constituent Assembly in 1987.
I was elected to be a member of the Constitutional Conference in 1994.
I was also part of the 2004 National Conference that was convened by Jonathan.
(02:06):
I held several positions in life, one of which was I was director of Federal Polytechnic Mubi.
I was chairman of Nigeria Ranchers Limited, a joint project of about 500 million
US dollars between Nigeria and Brazil to develop the cattle ranching in Nigeria.
(02:28):
I was also a director of Delta Steel Company for two years. I was a director
of a jacuta steel company for two years. I had been director of two banks.
I was also a director of an insurance company, general assurance,
what do you call it, company for about seven years.
(02:50):
Of course, you also said and confirmed that I was director general of the National
Maritime Authority. One thing, I was one of the most investigated public servant in this country.
When I left, when Abacha died.
(03:10):
And Abdus Salam came in, I had a problem, which was a subject of discussion at the OPUTA panel.
You know how Uzo Dima now, the present governor of Imo State,
single-handedly removed me as director general of the National Maritime Authority.
Single-handedly. Because of reasons that I would want journalists to ask him
(03:34):
so that when he says, I will come back on the stream to reply him.
So you want Hopu Zonema to answer why he single-handedly removed you as the
DG of the Nigerian Maritime Authority.
Yes, and this issue was an issue before the Opota panel, discussed by General
(03:55):
Sabo, the Director of Military Intelligence, and Hamza al-Mustafa,
the Chief Security Officer to General Sani Abacha.
But to cut a long story short, even after I left, there was nothing Kema Chukwe,
as Minister of Transport,
did not do on earth, falsehood, truth, to nail me, such that courageous and
(04:25):
honest people like me will never hold public office.
I was investigated eight times by the Obasanjo government.
Eight times. What would pay to the whole investigation was when a gentleman.
One of the very few elder statesmen of this country, Dr.
(04:46):
Christopher Kwalade, was asked to investigate certain situations during Obasanjo's
government. and in his submission he's alive he's alive,
get the documents from him for posterity, he wrote that I should be reinstated,
(05:07):
even though Obasanjo personally wanted me nailed because of my proximity to General Abacha.
How did you become proximate to General Abacha?
Because Abacha knew me. We were the three musketeers, northerners in Port Harcourt.
General Zamani Lecourt was the military governor of River State.
(05:28):
General Sanya Abacha was the brigand commander. Then in River State,
throughout those years that I was there, and I was the man that controlled the.
Hold the cow's horn for people to milk.
Because that time, there was no agency of government in the whole of River State
(05:50):
or ministry that has got the kind of funds under their control,
as I did. And I was investigated.
I was set up severely by government, and they never found me wanted.
So when the position of the Director General of the National Maritime Authority
became vacant, Abacha said he was looking for an honest, upright, hardworking person.
(06:14):
And he could not look farther than myself.
And this is why I had a torturous tenure because I was hated by the minister
who wanted to do certain things that I will never do and wrote secret memos
to General Abacha to remove me. Abacha still refused.
(06:37):
It's a long story that will take me years to narrate.
I had guns on my head. After all, you should know that Obasanjo put me underground
four floors in Park Lane No. 1 Lagos, Frank Omenka's dungeon.
You went to Frank Omenka's dungeon?
I was the prefect there.
(06:58):
What year was this? Chained me, 2004, because I organized...
What do you call stolen mandate against the 2003 election?
And there I invited, I was the chairman of the organizing committee.
I invited General Buhari. I invited Chukwumeka Odumegu Ojuku.
(07:23):
I invited Chukwumeka Olofalae. We invited Lajib Alarebe Musa.
We invited Dr. Tunji Breathwaite. and a host of progressive leaders,
not progressive by name, by our own assessment that time, we were leaders of
the opposition and they were all in town.
So they just speak to me that night.
(07:46):
The present senator representing Ilorian Central, Mustafa Saliu,
will tell you better when you invite, when you speak to him.
Was he there when they picked you? He was there. He was there.
Yeah, he was there when the SSS picked me.
And they locked me up in Kwamele Kado.
(08:08):
And in the guest house they kept me, there were over 50 armed plainclothes policemen.
And they chained me.
Look, when they interrogated me for 72 hours without a break.
You will be wondering how can a human being
(08:30):
be interrogated for 72 hours i will
tell you they had three teams of investigators
three teams these ones will come for eight hours i will be dozing they will
be asking questions immediately they finish their eight hours as if they are
going and i i should be allowed to rest as they were going other people were
(08:53):
coming in and And they will continue for 72 hours.
They didn't give me a sleep just to break my resolve.
Unfortunately for them, they were not able to do that.
And they now said, because they asked me one question inadvertently or deliberately.
They asked me, then Al-Mustafa was being tried for treason, that he was organizing
(09:18):
a coup from the prison. So they asked me whether I knew al-Mustafa.
Being the honest person I am, forthright, I said yes. We are from the same place.
Because he comes from Unguru, while I come from Joshua.
Only 65 kilometers separate us. And we see ourselves as the same people.
(09:43):
I said, okay, since I know al-Mustafa.
A party to that coup. So myself, General Adeka, and several military people, 39 of us were arrested.
38 of the 39 were all northerners.
That's how I got myself into that Framco-Mekas dengue.
(10:07):
And the world should know how I left that cell.
The Germans, the Germans, And the EU put a pressure on Obasanjo's government
and said, I am a political prisoner.
That what they were doing to me is political vendetta.
(10:29):
And they put that pressure.
But I would remember the last time I met the military tribunal,
they set up a tribunal of 10 generals and two other members.
Late, Labaraburno was DIG. and I don't know whether Dabo Galadima is still alive from Plato.
(10:49):
He was director of businesses in Lagos. They were members of the panel.
When they brought me in chains and put me in front of them.
I started looking at them because they had the U shape like this.
So I started looking at Labarang Murno, who was a DIG. I put my eyes straight on him.
(11:15):
After some few seconds, he had to put off his head because I thought in his
mind, because I knew him,
we knew each other, we stayed in the same area in Meduguri when he was inspector of police, 1978.
So you were friendly. So he just did like this because he thought that I will
(11:39):
call his name. I didn't, but I was using psychology.
So I look at everyone, each of them, I look at you straight into your eye. You have to blink.
You have to blink, including the major general who was chairman of that tribunal,
somebody from Benden. What year was this?
2004. 2004. So, 19 years.
(12:03):
So I followed this all. All by that look alone, I knew that I have disarmed them.
So, but the last time, which I would want to say.
No, I have to go back to something. Each time they bring me from the dengue inside,
because I wouldn't know the day or night or which day, Sunday,
(12:28):
Friday, I wouldn't know.
It's blank. And they give me a bottle to urinate inside.
They give me some pop to pass if I want to go to toilet.
And nobody is allowed to say a word to me. for all the time that I stayed in
that hall. The solitary?
More than solitary confinement. You remember that four floors down.
(12:52):
This is in Ikui. Ikui number one park lane. It's there up to now.
That's where they carry people they don't want.
Up to now. A lot of people died there without notice.
I believe Abbas Sanjou was also held there during Abacha's era.
No, Abbas Sanjou was taken to Gashua, my place. He was eating fish.
No, before then they held him they did they
(13:14):
did so is it
turn by turn is that why you guys was it
you know you know you know you know this one
of the one of when i see people in power yes they do certain things i just laugh
i just laugh right because they don't know that no condition is permanent what
(13:37):
they are doing to to others now when they are in power. Will happen to them.
Will definitely. I tell you, we've told Buhari people. We've told Jonathan people.
We've told Abasajo people. Where are they?
So if you find yourself in a position of authority, try to do what is right.
So look at me. I was never a minister, even a counselor. I was never.
(14:03):
I never held public office to amass wealth. Look at when you want to do this interview.
We don't even know where to improvise.
I live in a two-bedroom house for the last 30-something years.
You don't even know whether I rent it. Even the uncle said it's my own.
I said, no, it's not my own. Belongs to my friend. We are still in court.
(14:25):
Even when the courts gave the owners the house, they still don't believe it. We don't have.
Because I didn't steal. Whatever is the case, let me land on that issue.
The last day we sat was, I was brought in nine o'clock in the morning and I
was under interrogation. Not interrogation.
(14:47):
Trial by the military tribunal up to nine o'clock in the night, 12 good hours.
We had only one hour break.
I keep wondering, even now they arrest me and put me in such a situation as
an old man, I would want to go in peace.
That time I can stay for 12 hours without feeling anything.
(15:11):
But now I keep on imagining that I'm still an activist. If I find myself in
such a situation, How do I manage?
So when they finished, I raised my two hands because I have to do like this.
I'm chained like this, chained like this with crossbar.
And I sat on a chair, single chair like this. So I said, I want to speak.
(15:36):
The president of the tribunal, one military officer from Bendel,
very useless, unintelligent person.
You don't recall his name? No. No, I know, let him listen to me.
I dealt with some of them. Parbeni, we had a skirmish with him, FBI Parbeni.
(15:56):
He went and stole a lot of money. He gave a lady and the lady ran away to America.
He married the little girl and said that he infected her with gonorrhea. He can't go to US.
He had his own problem now.
This is poor Benny from Bayosa. Bayosa. A very corrupt person.
(16:16):
He was the one that, together with the, what do you call him?
Together with the Hupuzo Dima wanted, removed me.
Hupuzo Dima removed you in what capacity? As a businessman. He was a businessman.
Acting on behalf of others. I see. And he removed you from...
Because I refused to give him money. 5.7 billion.
(16:39):
I said, let them write a letter. authorizing
me to do i refused is there
this was the 96 no 98 98
98 yes so that's an
addition let me go back to that i asked the military the the the president of
(17:01):
the tribunal asked me so okay mr galadim how do you want to say i said sir you
know all this you are doing you wanted to link me to this school.
And you also wanted to find out whether General Buhari was the one that was instigating me.
From the SSS investigation up to this tribunal. All of them grabbed attention.
(17:28):
You cannot find any of the two. I don't do anything on the instance of another person.
Whatever I do, I do it because I'm convinced that what I am doing is correct and right.
So Buhari, take him, if you want to arrest him for coup, go and find other sources.
(17:48):
Buhari had nothing to do with that coup.
I thought Jaffa claims it was a phantom coup. No, listen.
The second is that you wanted to find out whether I was part of this coup that has been investigated.
I am not. Since I am not, there is nothing you can do for the three days that you are trying me.
(18:10):
You've not found a grain of evidence that I'll spot a parcel of it.
So you are under obligation.
To release me. Under obligation to release me. There is nothing we can do.
And did they release you? They released you? Listen.
(18:30):
So the man said, he just banged the table. He said, look, we are not here for
politics. We are not this. We are not that.
Then General Lemu, of blessed memory, cut in and said, look,
sir, this is a life and death matter.
The man should be allowed to speak his mind. Then there was a clash. within the tribunal.
(18:54):
There were four southerners. I mean, there were five southerners and seven northerners.
So it became a north and south issue.
I was shocked. In a tribunal that was set up by government.
That is how, I don't know what happened. One day, I was just inside.
(19:16):
So General A.T. Gibran, the man in charge of the military, Dangion, he's still around.
In fact, I learned he was supposed to be made a minister. I don't know what transpired now.
Very fine, handsome, military, intelligent military officer.
He's an inter-officer. From where?
(19:38):
Well, originally from Kano, but he was born and brought up in Plato.
Okay. So, if the man wanted to help me, What he will do is that when he comes
in the morning, he will ask them to pull me out of the dengion and bring me to his office and I sit.
When he's going home, they carry me and put inside the pit and he goes home.
(20:01):
At least I will never forget this. I've been looking for him since I left that place to thank him.
I had not seen him. And one thing again that Nigerians need to know,
the issue about us is not religion, it's not tribe.
There were two young officers who come to pick me every morning.
(20:25):
And I can say this because I'm sure they left the army by now.
Young officers, two of them.
There is Land Rover full of soldiers in front, 505 in the middle,
and two pickups full of soldiers.
And with siren, they take me like governor to the tribunal venue.
(20:49):
Each time they bring me out, they will ask all the soldiers,
rank and file, to move away.
And they tell me, sir, they have not yet found anything against you.
They are trying to use you to give yourself up. So be strong.
(21:10):
Keep on to what is right. We know that they are only doing this for political reasons.
Those two young officers captains, two of them none of them is a Muslim.
And they had they had that passion of patriotism and justice in them so when
(21:33):
you sit down in the office and giving instructions, you wouldn't know what happens,
outside with those that give the instruction, if I tell you that if I want to
know anything that is happening in the villa, I will know I had done that since.
That's why when I speak, those in power who knew what I was talking about,
(21:53):
they are shivering. How did I know?
But that's why SSS has picked you up multiple times. 38 times.
SSS has picked you up 38 times. Yes. I thought it was multiple times, but 38 times.
Yes. SSS, police, they interrogate me, they question me, they do this.
38 times. so this is life I've gone through it and it is important for you young people.
(22:25):
To understand something, that no condition is permanent.
And you should not be in a hurry. At this age, if you like, you can call me, I'm 71.
If you don't want, you can say I'm 75 when you add those four years. It doesn't matter what.
I am still healthier than all my classmates that held the public position,
(22:52):
made a lot of money, in life.
They don't have the kind of peace that I have. This is your second time of coming to this house.
You've seen how still people revere me, how they come in and go out.
There is no house in the whole of Abuja where people drive in and out like this
(23:15):
house. And I have nothing to give.
Sometimes I hardly feed. But you give people free food. People in there that
just... God brings the free food.
Like you, now if you are going, you have to drop.
You think I'll just talk like this and you go away. No.
So this life is very easy. And people should take it easy.
(23:38):
Oh, we will take away this man's victory by force because we are in power.
I just laugh when I hear it. You can do it.
But that is temporary. like what is happening with our neighbors here in niger
i just pray for this government,
that if they start the war which they want to do by all means they are forced
(24:02):
they are forced to do this war should not last more than three days if the war
lasts three days and extends to one month,
Hollywood knows either a mutiny happens in the army or a revolt will happen within Nigeria.
So if they want to be swift, 30 days is the maximum time they will stay.
(24:26):
Once they don't do that, but they should ask themselves, how did the overthrown
government itself come to power?
Did they remember that the Buhari government forced this government on the people
of Niger, Niger, went out of seven, six, eight regions in Niger,
the man overthrown, won only in one region.
(24:48):
And then when this was happening, the day this government was announced they've
won election, I said on BBC,
Radio France International, and Deutsche Welle, that this government will not
last because they will come the way, they will go the way they came.
And I gave them two and a half years.
(25:09):
I'm afraid to talk sometimes because 99% of what I politically say had been correct.
So I want to ask about your relationship with Mama Dubari.
We are the best of friends now. You are still the best of friends. Of course, why not?
He thought I would die. He thought maybe I would die if I didn't get positioned.
(25:34):
I'm looking healthier than him. and I have more respect than him.
If anybody denies the respect I have, let's attend a public function with a
public officer and me, a proletariat, a common person,
and see who do people gather around and joke with and talk without me giving a penny.
(25:57):
Without them knowing what I have to give.
You said that Buhari set Nigeria back a hundred years.
This was somebody who was your best friend.
You were picked up at least, you were picked up multiple times because you were
supporting him both publicly and in your personal capacity.
(26:19):
And then, as you said, no condition is permanent because if I remember,
you switched to the PDP, joined the Atiku team and in 2019, Buhari's SSS.
I didn't. You didn't switch? No. But they picked you up?
Yeah, they wanted to pick me
up. They didn't pick you up? They didn't get me. It was misreported? No.
(26:40):
Because you know, there was a... There's a difference between picking me,
detaining me, or having me.
Okay. You must have made an attempt, but you didn't see me or you didn't get
me. So what about in 2019?
No, because I saw their moves and I was alerted. So I left the house, leaving all my phones.
Because if I have my phones on me, and people should know that if you commit an offense, fence.
(27:04):
Don't go with the known telephone on your body because they will zero on you
wherever you are. So I left.
And I saw the movement. I know when they want to pick me each time. I know what they do.
So I'm an experienced person in that. An experienced political detainee.
Well, so now the article story.
(27:29):
You know, we formed a splinter group.
We left the APC and formed a splinter group called Reformed APC.
R-A-P-C. and I was made the chairman.
That group included Senate President, that group included Speaker of the House,
(27:50):
Saraki, Tamwul, Konkoso, and about five governors also.
Yes. We formed the RAPC and this wisdom came when elections was getting there, we had to align.
Do we still work for RAPC or we work for PDP?
And we entered into an agreement an alliance with the PDP.
(28:16):
So they found it expedient to give me a role. And the role is to present their face.
If I become a spokesman, it will be the face of the RAPC. That is how we fought the election.
And we fought that election and up to now, I believed that Atiku won that election.
(28:36):
It was denied him. And you can never tell.
Atiku should also search himself why he's always been denied victory.
He needs to, seriously.
He should remember what he did to other people in 2003. and 2003.
They should go and ask Mohamed Lawan of Quara.
(28:59):
They should ask Abu Bakr Aoudou of Kogi. They should ask Abu Bakr Hashidu of Gombe.
They should ask the person who contested with Senator Jibreel Aminu.
He did certain things that is
haunting him. This is why when you are doing certain things, be careful.
You may have to pay yourself or your children or grandchildren may pay.
(29:21):
You know, astaghfirullah, God does not wait now for us to go to heaven before they judge you.
So, me, you know, that is why I don't want, I don't contest election,
not because I can't win or I'm not popular.
I am the most popular. All political office, I mean, party offices that I held,
(29:44):
I won by popular vote and almost 90% out of 10 candidates whenever I contest.
But I can't contest general election because in Nigeria, they can bribe your
father to vote against you. I'm sure nobody likes you more than your father or your mom.
So people now can take spaghetti and indomie to vote.
(30:06):
So they are now eating their spaghetti. They will eat their spaghetti for four
or eight years that they collected.
So that was how the issue of PDP came in. I was never a member of the PDP.
That's fair. And I kept on correcting this. You press men and journalists kept
on... Putting it on you. Yes.
(30:27):
No, I'm glad you're able to correct it here. No, tomorrow someone will come
and ask you the same question.
But you are a member of the CPC, and you are a founding member of the APC.
Yes? I was number four signatory. Of the six signatories that...
Nine. Of the nine signatories that create APC, you are the number four.
(30:49):
Yes. So you're a significant, significant name in the Nigerian political space
and in Nigerian political history, especially in the fourth Republic,
but you live a very quiet life.
I'm not, you say I'm quiet? Huh? Well, you're not quiet in the news,
but I mean, you live a, a very humble life.
(31:09):
Like when I first met you, you described it as being something that the Sardana
of Sokoto, Sardana of Sokoto was like a very humble, no big houses that you
do it because of religion.
Am I correct in saying that? Well, thank you for the accolades.
(31:33):
It's your judgment. Yes. But I would want to say that one doesn't need to show off.
Let other people tell you that you are this.
You don't need to say it. Let your actions, deeds, and demeanor make people
acknowledge you as a leader.
I am a leader. I consider myself president.
(31:57):
You know why? No. It's because the people believe that I am an honest person,
that I'm a leader to be associated with.
Even those that do not come to me because they are looking for something from governments.
In a subtle way, whenever I see them try to confide in me that don't blame us for not coming.
(32:24):
So don't worry. Humility is the art of good living.
You know, do you think like, because I feel like this is how your best friend,
Buhari, also presented himself and said that this is also why he was going to
curb corruption because he was honest and he was humble and he only,
(32:48):
you know... You know, that is why I like the Tinipu government. Why?
From the campaign. Yes. Up to now, have you ever had anybody in the Tinbu camp
that talked about fighting corruption? They are honest.
You may not like it. Oh, you had any of them? Who?
(33:11):
Not that I can recall. They never pretended they are going to fight corruption.
They even never pretended they are going to be Democrats. That's why some of
them are thinking of taking over states from those that won.
They never pretended.
So, you know, you cannot read the man's mind from the construction of his face. But me, I did on Wuhan.
(33:40):
And I have witnesses. Witnesses. First witness is Sule Hama,
our leader, the Director General of the Buhari Organization.
From 2002 to 2015, I kept on telling him to be careful because this man,
this is what he will do. Go and interview him.
(34:04):
He will confirm this. But he kept on.
He is the most intelligent human being that I had worked with in my life. Sule Yahya Hama.
He was the secretary to government of Kano state from 1979 to 83.
How old were you? I was not existent. I was not born. He was Abacha's political
(34:27):
advisor and he held several positions in life. Very intelligent man.
Unassuming. Whenever Buhari commits a blunder, I come to him and say, son, look at this man.
How, look at what he did. I complain, I complain. Then he will calm me down.
(34:49):
And this is where my weakness also came. He calms me down.
Buba, I say, yes, in our culture, when the king commits an offense.
Those people around him take the blame.
Such that if the king survives, even though they fall, he will now raise them up.
(35:16):
So we should continue to take Buhari's inadequacies and shoulder them for him.
We know that he doesn't have at all, nothing.
That is why. Two, Buba, why are you shouting? Leave him.
After all, when he forms government, We are going to run the government.
(35:40):
Who does he have to run the government?
I said, no, no, no, no. He said, no, no, no. How?
I said, no, this man is just waiting to get rid of us.
Suleyama didn't believe me. But he kept on because the way he will explain any
situation, you can't believe it.
It doesn't matter how intelligent you are, you must be carried away. away.
(36:02):
So, the day Muharrem was announced president, he came to the national headquarters of the.
ANPP to do his acceptance speech to Nigerians. We were in the front row.
I was number one, Selahama was number two, and others lined up like this.
(36:23):
So, when he finished, he came to us.
He came to us and started greeting me. He gave me a hand like this,
took took off his head and called me Bubba.
He gave his hand to Sule, took off his head. I was watching him because I'm
very observant. He shook him and said, Sule.
(36:43):
So when we left at about after 5 a.m., everybody drove to Buhari's house.
Sule Hama wanted us to drive there. I said, no. He said, why? I said, no, sir.
Didn't you see that we are out?
He said, why should you say that? I said, yes. Yes.
Now, how does, what the, for the last 30 years that we've been in trenches with
(37:07):
Buhari, what's the name he called me with?
He said, he calls me engineer. Today, he called me by my first name, Buba.
Well, how does he call you? It's now down on him that Buhari always calls him Dokaji.
It's a title given to him by the Sultan of Sokoto.
(37:29):
Today, he called you slave. He has stripped us of all those titles we have.
That means we are out. He didn't believe me.
Are we not out? Why are we not out?
And this is not even because of me the board of trustees of the APC never sat,
(37:50):
since 2015 up to date they never sat?
Board of trustees of the APC you should ask me now, because of me why?
You have to explain that because Buhari didn't like my face didn't like my guts
But we went one day for a meeting of caucus of the APC,
(38:15):
of which I was a statutory member by my position as a signatory to the formation of the party.
And he saw me. He was so upset. The moment he saw me, he changed face.
So everybody, they are sitting on a high table. So those of us,
I don't know, common people sitting, in the hall like this.
(38:38):
So everybody, we lined up to come and greet him, president.
When it came to my turn, he gave me a hand and he did like this.
And I passed. I came and reported to my boss, he wasn't a signatory.
Reported to Tony Momo.
Then we came for another meeting. There, he saw me again.
(39:00):
He caused a committee to be set up under the present president.
Under Tinubu. Under Tinubu.
With the directives that that part of the constitution, which authorizes the
signatories to the formation of the APC, should be expelled from the constitution,
(39:23):
such that he doesn't see me anymore.
As I speak to you, Tinbu has never submitted that report.
So he's still my friend, right? Who? Buhari or Tinbu?
Buhari. He's still your friend. It's okay, since you say so. No, I'm not.
When I'm going to see him. Because we intend to go and greet him.
(39:44):
In Dharia? Yes, and tell him, sir, we thank God for bringing you out of that hell alive.
We'll go and tell him. We know that when we go there, he will not allow us.
So we'll carry you to report. From there, I will speak.
(40:04):
That's a very... I mean, so would you say there are no friends in politics?
Interest. They're only interests. I hear that a lot from politicians and people
in our political system.
Unfortunately, some people don't even know their interest.
To even define your interest and live by it needs an ingenuity.
(40:26):
I don't think Buhari knew his interest. That is why when he was coming,
every Nigerian was clapping that Nigeria is going to be an El Dorado.
When he was going, everybody was clapping. hoping that, thank God,
he's leaving us in one piece, except for those who passed away during his time.
Everybody was clapping that Buhari was going. Now, you know my problem now?
(40:50):
I will be most disappointed if there is any government that will come after
Buhari and Nigerians start saying it is better Buhari.
Because of the kind of things I said about Buhari, I will not be able to walk
on the streets of Nigeria.
If they compare and say Buhari is better, that's my problem.
(41:11):
Because you don't think there can be a government worse.
That's what I said before. You don't think there can be a government worse than
Buhari's government? Yes, that's what I said publicly.
So if one becomes worse than him, may God save my soul.
Buhari doesn't think at all.
I don't want to say much, but if he thinks,
(41:32):
he wouldn't have given a blanket paper and sign his signature and give error file,
he went, the party sat down and decided on who should be members of the interim
APC National Executive Committee, which was agreed by us.
Like Errafai, you know, all things.
(41:54):
You know, I told you on Aitipu that people have been hunted by their own shadow in their past.
These things that happened to Errafai, he has not seen anything from what he
did to other people but biting them.
And there are still people like Errafai, people like Ganduji.
Tinimu doesn't understand. He will soon understand.
(42:17):
The tiger doesn't change his stripes. Well, it's okay. Okay,
but when you put your hand inside fire, you will know. What about Gandu Jay's fire?
Hmm? What about Gandu Jay's fire? Gandu Jay? Yes. And? Yeah,
you know, what has he done?
He's okay. You will see his handwriting very soon. I'm sure you guys,
(42:38):
I'm sure you have a relationship because you have a relationship with Kwankwaso,
Gandu Jay and Kwankwaso. Kwankwaso person? Yeah.
And I don't shift the ground when I follow him because I'm not following him
because of money. I follow you because of what I think you can do or who you are.
And if I promise you I will follow you, God do us part.
(42:59):
So I've promised to conquer Saul. I'm going to support him.
Even if he does not help, without a counselor, we were together. We fought together.
Even now, as they are rumoring they want to take Kano away from him,
even if they take, we will continue together.
Let them tell they don't know that they are only adding to his popularity,
(43:25):
so if and that's what Denduja is working on he has compromised everybody around
the president to create that picture,
I learned that even the president is not personally disposed to that but they
want to force it on him one advice I will give through him to the president
okay and he should know this is the wisdom of our ancestors,
(43:47):
that But if you are a chief or a king, when everybody clubs the same quarrel,
you are in trouble because they are isolating you.
So the best way to move forward is that all those close to you should never have one view always.
Let them disagree. That is what the Oiboman calls divide and rule.
(44:09):
If they are all tagging together, it means there is something they are doing
behind you. whether individually they come or they come as a group.
And that is what every ruler, president, governor, or chairman should be careful of.
So Dan DeJay wants to take Kano back, as you say.
(44:31):
Through the back door. Because there is nothing that they presented in court
that can even remove a councillor, let alone a governor.
They went to court and said Abba Kabir Yusuf was not a member of the NNPP.
What's their concern? That's a pre-election matter.
(44:51):
And no other party can question that except an NNP-interested, NNPP person.
And it's pre-election. They went to court and they said there was violence in
over 1,296 police units.
In Kano, they presented 32 witnesses.
And for every police unit, for you to prove that, you have to present,
(45:16):
what do you call it? You have to present a witness.
And all the witnesses, 32 of them that they presented, None of them was uploaded
before going to the tribunal when the tribunal closed accepting petitions.
But even if there are proper witnesses, what is the quantum of those 32 witnesses?
Less than 20,000 votes.
(45:40):
If you remove it from 128, we still have an edge of over 100,000.
So how? And if they now, some people believe that, look, Konkoso should not be allowed to breathe.
Is this the appointment who said the poor should breathe? It's Tinobu that said
(46:01):
it. Let the poor breathe. Don't suffocate them.
Let the poor breathe.
Don't suffocate them.
Why can't they allow us to breathe? Can't they take lesson?
Why do we politicians and people in authority don't understand?
(46:21):
2019, this same Abba Kabir Yusuf won the governorship election in Kano.
You don't know? With 28,000 votes.
They took it away. They said, once you take it away, Kongosor is finished.
Kongosor came with a bank. He won, according to them, with 128,000.
100, enough to win a governorship election in some states.
(46:42):
Without a councillor, without a chairman, without a member of assembly,
without a senator, without a governor.
Only our brain.
So what stops Konkoso if they take away the governorship from Kano? What? Out of sympathy.
After all, they suppressed our votes over 600,000.
(47:03):
If the authorities don't know, I'm telling them this now.
And their own votes of 800,000 is less than 200,000.
After all, if they were in government and Kongoso was able to defeat them like
this, how can they go to tell the president that, look, Kongoso didn't win the election?
(47:24):
They were in government, oh, where we had nothing. And with all the money Ghanouja
stole, if he says he's not a thief, let him allow investigation to go on.
Now he's using federal agencies to stop his being investigated in Kano,
as if nobody, no intelligent person in Nigeria can understand what they are doing.
(47:46):
Look, I'm sorry.
I'm sorry that I have come to the inevitable conclusion that I may not see the
Nigeria of my dream in my lifetime.
That's a very, very sad thing. I may not see. that's why I'm keeping quiet have you lost hope?
(48:07):
Completely not because of those that are in power or seize the power but because of your people,
there is nothing under the sun that I have not seen before this election Nigerians
decided to take Indomie 200 Naira and voted for rocks across the country,
(48:27):
BBC Voice of America America, Dechambele, Al Jazeera, CNN, they had requested to interview me, TRG.
I said, no. All the things I needed to say, I said to them before the election.
I have nothing new to say. People are hungry. Let them die. It's their fault.
(48:49):
Not earlier? This thing they put grain and do like this to remove the dirt.
You know that one? Anybody that buys that one knows that if you put water,
the water will fall down.
It cannot sustain the water. So what is the problem?
I'm supporting Telugu 100%. You're supporting Telugu? 100%. To deal with Nigerians.
(49:15):
People like you. So that when the next election comes, I will now see whether
when people bring money, you will vote for them or you will do your conscience.
I want to say that I think most, a lot of people vote their conscience,
regardless of if there's money involved or not.
Even if I'm talking about my demographic, even young people in Lagos did not vote for Tenro.
(49:39):
They were the closest to him and he did not win the election there.
It's true. I live in Lagos. I don't know anybody who is my age who voted for
Tinugu who's not related to him.
But I'll blame... What are you laughing at? I blame... No, it's true.
I don't think it's fair to blame us.
(50:01):
You guys have the power. You have the money. You have the knowledge.
They said power belongs to...
Those who take it? Huh? Those who take it? Power belongs to the people.
So what are you doing? If you're coerced and compromised, which means you've
supported what had happened. You've supported evil.
(50:23):
Supported evil? Yes. Because rigging election is evil.
This life, for how long are you going to live? You are what age?
I'm 30. 30. Can you live for 30 times 30? No.
Shemi will die one day. If you don't die today, you may die one day,
even if it's 200 years. Yes. So, what's the issue?
(50:47):
Look, there will be time to talk. Let them finish.
I want to ask because, you know, you say you're not in it for the money and
you're not in it for the power. Hmm?
So, you're not in politics for the money and you're not in politics for the power. Hmm.
So, why have you been actively involved in politics since 1978?
(51:12):
Justice. I want justice for my country, for every citizen of my country.
I have about eight children, your age and above, who have read books from one cover to the other.
Master's degrees, medical doctors, IT experts, and what not.
(51:37):
None of them could get a job. I live, I rent a two-bedroom house for 30-something years.
If I needed money, I was director of Delta Steel Company. I was director of
a Japanese steel company.
I was director general of the then NIMASA.
I was project engineer, secretary, schools building committee in reverse.
(52:01):
Over 500 million naira, then, which is over 500 million US dollars.
I was chairman of Nigerian branches with the paid up capital of over 500 million US dollars.
I was director of two banks I was director of an insurance company if it is
(52:23):
the money that I had wanted,
I could have soiled my hands and I wouldn't be able to look at you straight
into the face and talk to you because I would be afraid of my past,
is there anything more than freedom rest of mind.
If people like us it's shameful that at my age whether 71 or 75 I'm still in
(52:46):
trenches fighting for the good of this country,
if you make me minister for example or CBM governor what is it that I will do
which I have not done what is it marry young girls like you or drink beer or wine,
or take pepper soup even the food I eat now I have to do it with caution food,
(53:10):
if my children take drugs and
I'm always on the way to rehab centers or I always keep an eye on them.
It's not good for me. That's why we have to fight to make sure that the society
is cleansed and there should be justice.
Just because we don't have money, you will have no access to good things of
(53:33):
life or because we have no parents that are placed in strategic position.
Don't you think that this can breed revolution?
Do you know the kind of revolution that is taking place in West Africa,
Guinea, Mali, Burkina, Niger?
For the coup in Niger, could you have known that the French take,
(53:57):
take, take, take uranium from France,
I mean from Niger, and almost for free, and that if they are paid the exact
amount that they sell that uranium in world market, Niger would have been a Dubai?
Our eyes open by day, and we speak because we had experience, we know.
(54:21):
So we tell you, If we don't tell you the history of this country,
what are you going to fall back on when we are no longer here?
And we will not be here one day. Very soon, maybe.
What do you feel particularly sad about the, you know, drug usage in the north
and the insecurity that's going on in northern Nigeria right now,
(54:45):
especially under Buhari?
There seems to be a deterioration. The truth of the matter is that nobody wants
to tackle the insecurity. So, let's leave it.
I wrote a paper I can bring you. 2011.
Delivered a lecture at NIPS, Nigerian Institute for Policy and Strategic Studies.
NIPS just delivered a lecture.
(55:07):
There were over 50 retired and serving generals.
There were over 50 police commissioners retired and serving and above.
There were intellectuals. I received a standing ovation.
And everything I have said in that paper has come to pass.
Let me tell you, if I look at you straight into the eye and say,
(55:29):
look, if you are not careful, so-and-so will happen to you.
Just pray to God very, that it does not.
So the truth of the matter is that no government is serious in doing that. And you see our clergy.
Than the illiterates, our clergy. The religious clergy? Yes.
(55:52):
They are only after money. And these are people who will tell you that,
look, don't vote for Mr. So-so-so because he doesn't have money.
Is that money that qualifies you to be a good leader?
No, I don't have money. Can any of those who have money talk to you the way I'm talking?
Is there anything you can say that can give hope or motivation to the younger ones?
(56:14):
Not necessarily about revolution but about how we engage the political system.
Should we join political parties? Should we start our own?
Should we, you know, do we need funding? Like what can young people do?
Because I feel that we can't all just jackpot. We can't all run away.
(56:37):
Well, I told you that I joined the politics under 30. And by 1979,
I was 27, I was nominated as minister from my state.
So, but we have a difference. When I was in school, then, I was also assisting my parents.
(56:57):
When my parents passed away, I started assisting myself.
Now I have children.
They don't expect me to still look after them, instead of them looking after me.
That is how the society has degenerated.
If you want to make an impact, you shouldn't be in a hurry to make money or
(57:22):
to be in power just with like a flash of lightning.
You have to work hard for it, such that in trying to work hard for it,
you can gather experience.
You will not depict faults.
(57:43):
You will not the plus and minuses of situation.
You children of nowadays don't have that patience. and it is that patience that
is needed to catapult you to whatever position you want to be.
Forming a party on your own and starting from your own level doesn't assist you.
(58:06):
You have to join existing political parties and you land on the job.
That does not stop you from aspiring to the highest position in the land or
the political party can provide. wide.
But do you feel like these places are so rotten that if you go there,
instead of you being good in the system, the system will make you worse? No.
(58:27):
That means you didn't come with the principles.
If you have your principles, which you have nurtured and concretized,
it doesn't matter where you enter. It will not change you, like me.
Anybody that knew me when I was monitor in 1959 in primary school,
(58:48):
And when I was monitor, 1966, in secondary school,
when I was chairman of the Basic Studies Students Union and chairman of ICSA Hall in ABU,
knew that Buba the Ladima has not changed all these years.
I've not changed. My yes is yes. My no, even at the point of death, is no.
(59:15):
The military knew that. the SSS knew that the police knew that so you have to
have certain principles if you are dying die for a cause.
Ask, you know, do you have regrets of being part of the Abacha administration?
(59:38):
Uh-uh. I had several answers to this question.
For me, Abacha was the best president that Nigeria ever had because he held this country like this.
And Abacha, I will tell you, this secretary, your federal secretary, who built it?
National Assembly. Who built it?
(01:00:01):
Who completed the villa? So he did well with infrastructure projects.
Infrastructure. Throughout a batch of four years plus, the dollar was 84 naira.
How much was four? It never changed. You can plan for your business.
Who among all these leaders can beat his chest to say he kept the dollar at
(01:00:24):
a certain amount of money without changing for six months?
But at that point in time, you know, dollars should have gone down with our oil sales.
So keeping it the same is only an achievement because of what has come afterwards.
Do you know that he was under sanction?
Yeah. Do you know that the oil was being sold for $15 under a butcher? You forgot?
(01:00:50):
I didn't forget he was under sanction. Maybe you are too young to know.
Yes. And he was under sanction. No one is taking our oil. They were still taking the oil. No.
Maybe stealing. And you can't attempt to steal during Abacha.
There was sanity in the country.
Can they take your hand back on the street during Abacha? Yes.
(01:01:16):
Abacha? Yes. Well, you didn't know, please. You said you were 30.
Yeah. When did Abacha...
When did he become president? 1993. From 93 to date, how many years?
30. 30 what? 30 exactly. 30 exactly.
30? Exactly. Which means you were just born. And you were just born,
(01:01:38):
you knew what was happening.
No, I didn't. Okay, let me ask you like a specific question.
Franco Menka, the torturous dungeon who you were in, he came up under Al-Mustafa.
That's part of the Abacha regime. Yes. so the people who were empowered later became your torturers.
(01:02:03):
Let me tell you something you may not understand. Okay.
You see, it's your intention that drives what you do.
Abacha had a vision for this country, integrate this country,
formed a constitution where nobody wanted to promulgate a constitution,
where no section would feel oppressed, suppressed.
(01:02:27):
That was Abacha. This is why he adopted a modified French system.
That you have a head of government, you have a prime minister,
such that at every point in time, when the president comes from the north,
for example, the prime minister comes from the south,
the prime minister manages the government by law, by law,
(01:02:52):
and the president only manages the currency, the defense, and the economy.
That's power sharing. That's what you're thinking. I may not agree with him, but he has his vision.
Which of the presidents has any vision? Now I ask you, tell me.
I don't want to do comparative.
(01:03:15):
You can't compare because you didn't know about his regime, you are told.
No, I studied it. You studied it from the point of view of his enemies. Not just of his enemies.
Did you study it from my point of view? Huh? Did you study it from my point of view?
I also studied it from the point of view. Did you study it from my point of view that supports you?
(01:03:35):
No. But you are an abacha or a pointee? Yes.
You are a deity. The Saradona of Sokoto said something. Okay.
Before you were born. Okay.
He established the new Nigerian newspaper and the radio television kaduna.
He said he has to establish his own trumpet so that he blows his own.
(01:04:00):
Because the other people are too busy blowing their own such that they will
have no time to say what he's doing.
So for you to now get anything about Abacha, you have to go to Abacha people
who believe in him or in the alternative,
bring those who are writing against Abacha and bring to me and pay us on a television
(01:04:23):
debate and let them say what they had done better than Abacha.
And I will tell them why Abacha is better than each and every one of them.
The mere fact that he stepped on toes does not mean that he was a bad man.
I think like human rights abuses is not the same as stepping on toes.
(01:04:43):
But did Abacha tell you that he was voted in by you?
Did he tell you that he was voted by you? What do you mean? Voted into power by you? No.
Who voted him? He took power. By? Of course.
A mandated power. Barrel of the gun? Yes. So he never pretended that he was a Democrat.
These people who are pretending to be Democrats are worse than Abacha.
(01:05:06):
Abacha didn't take anybody's election. But he did take lives and liberty. Of who?
Of who? tell me now no accusation tell me.
Okay we can talk about the ones that were no no
no no no now we are we are getting
we are getting closer to the facts okay who's life Okwita panel attempts on
(01:05:28):
Alex Ibru Abraham Adesanya Kuria Tabiola Liberty of even someone like Bayo Oshinowo
who's not well known but spoke at the panel this he was accused or he was it
was confirmed found that he did it.
Well, it was an accusation because he lost his life. So you have no point now
(01:05:49):
since it's an accusation.
You must have tried him even in absentia to establish that.
Because these are his enemies. That's why I'm telling you that you heard from
the other side of the coin. You didn't ask the other side.
I'm asking the other side now. So I'm telling you the other side that is known.
If they have any evidence, we need it. Abacha can be tried posthumously and
(01:06:15):
how about Abacha loots you know I had spoken about this several times Abacha didn't loot any pen,
You are too young to understand. He was storing the money. He was storing the money abroad.
(01:06:36):
Why don't we go full hog to probe all governments, including Abacha's own?
Those who call Abacha thief, they are worse thieves.
I don't mind. And let me tell you why Abacha. I was a member of that government,
Not sitting in government as minister, but I was part of that government.
(01:06:57):
And I knew how much I left in the coffers of the NMA, which was wiped out in two months.
Stolen. I'm not calling names.
Wiped out in two months. And I want to ask you, do you know what is sanction?
What is it? What do you understand by sanction? I understand that because Nigeria
(01:07:22):
was not a democracy, the West and international community put sanctions on Nigeria,
trading with Nigeria, doing business with Nigeria, buying Nigerian oil,
or even in terms of sending donations to Nigeria.
So the sanction essentially means that there's a reduction in inflow of money into Nigeria, right?
(01:07:43):
It's okay. You don't even understand what it is. Let me tell you what it is. Okay.
Sanction is stopping people from getting what they need for their daily life.
That is what the Tinobu government had done against Niger. You didn't know that? That is only one paper.
As I speak to you, I know some people that are Nigerians who are carrying food
(01:08:06):
and everything to Niger. He can't stop it. He doesn't know.
He doesn't know. No, you mean that towns that are divided by just a street,
the other side of Nigeria cannot eat food or cannot sell commodities.
They will pass it to their brothers or in-laws across the other side.
(01:08:31):
So we are just fooling ourselves. Let me explain to you the so-called Abacha loot.
Abacha was appropriately advised by Saddam Hussein because he was a veteran
of sanctions by the West plus Gaddafi.
They told him that whatever you will do since they are putting sanctions on
(01:08:55):
you establish dummy companies across the world not linked to you and gather
as much money as you can that can last to your country's import for at least six months.
Are the monies that were deposited into certain accounts.
Every country of the world, including the U.S., does it.
(01:09:18):
If they want to do a clandestine activity in Nigeria, they don't bring money through the bank.
They have some established contacts that can give money here and take there.
That is what had happened.
And that time, they could not trace those funds that Nigeria was using to survive.
(01:09:40):
And to maintain our currency at 84 naira per dollar.
And people, because they hate Abacha, they say Abacha loot.
Let anybody come and debate with me.
And those countries did not like Abacha because they stood against him.
That is why they are fighting the Nigerian military.
So, for example, like the money that was kept in Lichtenstein and Luxembourg,
(01:10:05):
350 million, 250 million.
Was it in Abacha's name? I mean, Mohamed Abacha fought for...
Nothing in Mohamed Abacha's name.
No account was traced to Abacha's family.
Mohamed, he put the account in the funder. Never.
He petitioned the court for them to not release the money, claiming ownership to the funds. Never.
(01:10:29):
Do you know about Gudu? I do know about Gudu, yes. You know him,
eh? Yes. When you finish interviewing me, when you interview him, he will tell you better.
He's your minister. He's a minister. He's a butcher man. Yes. Can he deny a butcher?
No, he can't. So he's so good that you make him minister of budget and planning.
Thank you. No, I didn't agree.
(01:10:52):
I didn't agree that I was good minister. Did you write a petition to the Senate
not to confirm him? Huh? Because he was a butcher man.
Did I write a petition? Did you write to the Senate not to confirm him?
They weren't asking them any questions. I didn't think there was a point. So you agreed?
No. Okay, I see what you're saying. I see what you're saying.
I actually agree with you, yes. If I'm not active, then I am...
(01:11:13):
Passive agreement. You know, in my culture,
when somebody is dating a young girl and you as parent want to find out her
consent, you sit her down and ask her whether she loves that man.
If she doesn't speak, that is consent. Really?
(01:11:35):
Maybe you ask my friends here. My own culture is different.
You don't need to speak. if she doesn't like she will say no but if she keeps
quiet the father will go ahead to consummate that marriage,
so so this government for example this Tinipu government is also an abetcha
(01:11:58):
government I see that now yes is it not apart from how many ministers,
apart from Bakutu who else,
go and do your research you are a journalist list.
The Tinubu government is an Abacha government. I don't know.
I say so is an Abacha government.
(01:12:19):
If they can accept Abacha people, it means they share something in common.
And they need to get Abacha people.
Because how Abacha maintained peace is a big school for studies.
Well, I'm going to talk next to Abacha's former chief security officer.
(01:12:41):
El Mustafa. Yes. Ask him when he knows before the Lajima.
Okay. Thank you so much, sir, for sitting with me. I think I've taken a lot of your time. Thank you.
Music.
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