In this engaging and entertaining conversation, I interview Derek Haynes, the Chocolate Botanist, who shares his passion for botany and the importance of understanding the historical and cultural significance of plants. We discuss ethnobotany, the integration of history into botany, and the significance of storytelling in preserving knowledge. He emphasizes the importance of accurate information in gardening, so he makes videos debunking popular creators' tips.
The conversation also touches on race, perception, why we can't grow certain things we love in the U.S., and the role of local extension offices in providing reliable gardening information. We explore various aspects of urban gardening, from the curiosity that drives individuals to grow their own food to the historical context of foraging laws. We discuss the joy of nurturing plants and the transformation of lawns into productive gardens. The conversation also touches on food safety concerns, particularly regarding the use of Apeel, a new coating sprayed on produce, and emphasizes the need for self-reliance in food production. Throughout, we share some personal anecdotes and practical advice for aspiring gardeners.
You can find Derek @thechocolatebotanist on social media.
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(00:02):
I wanted to wish Happy Mother's Day to all the moms out there, especially my mom.
Hi mom, love you.
I wish all of you a day of relaxation full of love.
If you think gardening is boring, you haven't been following the chocolate botanist Derrick Haynes.
This was a fun interview about debunking videos from other creators and where history and plants collide.
(00:23):
Want to smell good during the apocalypse?
Like random Michael Jackson references and eating good when others are fighting in the parking lot?
We got you.
Hi, it's the Urban Lady Prepper and I have a very special episode right now and it is with the chocolate botanist, Mr. Derek Haynes, and I am so happy that he's able to do this episode with me because he's a busy guy.
(00:46):
If you've been following him on Instagram and the other socials, which I know you are, he makes awesome commentary on plant life and botany and dispelling a lot of crazy stuff that you hear going around on the internet letting us know whether or not it's not true.
So he has a wealth of knowledge to share with people, more people growing their own food and being curious about what's being put in the food that we're eating.
(01:10):
I just felt that it would be great to have him on, so I'm very honored that he is taking some time out to hang with us.
Just to give a little bit of background for those who don't know, he's following in the footsteps of notable Black plant scientists like George Washington Carver and Percy Julian, and it's no easy task, but Derrick Haynes, otherwise known as the chocolate botanist, is more than up to the challenge.
(01:32):
With a background in botany and working in vaccine and therapeutics development using non-traditional plant-based technologies, Derrick certainly practices what he preaches.
His earnest passion has landed him features in The Guardian, Lifehacker, and he's been a guest on renowned podcasts like Black in the Garden and In Defense of Plants.
He has also worked with the North Carolina Botanical Gardens in developing educational workshops on botany and plant science.
(01:57):
So, thanks for joining us.
I'm glad to have you here.
I am glad to be here, Lynn.
It's always good to be here.
I'm curious.
I know that you have, in your bio, it explains your education and where you've been and what you've done, but if you'd like to just speak on that a little bit and just let us know what really got you going as far as getting into botany and what are the favorite aspects of it?
(02:23):
What does being a botanist mean to you?
What drives you?
That's a very good series of questions.
So, plant biology, I'm going to start backwards.
Plant biology is the science and the history behind the plant.
So, it's literally the biological sciences and the historic uses of these plants, right?
(02:45):
So, anything as far as, like, plants have a cell wall.
That is something there.
It covers mycology.
It covers plant hormones.
It covers genetic modification, and it covers history like cornflakes being made because somebody didn't want people to be horny anymore.
So, they ended up accidentally making cornflakes.
So, Tony the Tiger doesn't want you to be participating in that month of November, but it's that.
(03:11):
And when we think about me becoming a plant biologist, I've always had a passion for plants, a love and a zeal, if you will, of them, and I just followed it.
I went along with it.
I did it, and from there, I just was overjoyed to be a person that could truly follow my passion with plants to get to a level of this scientific communication thing that I'm doing now.
(03:36):
So, it all wraps up from me being a child, playing with plants, loving plants, and loving information and sharing it with other people, sometimes to their dismay.
To me being now, the guy that's, like, online, sharing information, much to their dismay.
So, yeah.
I think that that's great.
I was a science nerd when I was younger.
(03:57):
So, anything about science and plants is super fascinating to me.
Anytime I get to speak to someone who's really into the science of things, I find it fascinating, especially with so much misinformation and disinformation that's out there and people just trying to snatch information on the go.
It's good to connect with people that actually know what they're talking about.
(04:18):
One of the interviews that I read from you, you talked about ethnobotany and it was the study of plants and how society interacts, how we work with plants, how the plants work with us.
So, could you give us a little more information about that?
Like, what does it mean to you?
What does it mean?
So, ethnobotany is, when people think about it and we think of that definition, I like this.
(04:41):
There is a reason why cotton is the fabric of our lives.
There is a reason why we as a people can say that a majority of our clothing, and I'm not pulling statistics, I'm just pulling a wild guess.
The majority of our clothing is made from cotton, right?
Some cotton went somewhere into a process and because of that, that plant became profitable to the Americas.
(05:09):
And because of that plant, 11 and a half million enslaved African people were snatched from their country and brought here.
So, that one plant didn't do that itself, didn't rip its roots out of the ground and start whipping Negroes and saying, go on and work now, right?
It didn't make America racist.
(05:29):
Howsoever, in the events around all of that is inspired and led by the plant.
So, when we think of ethnobotany, we're thinking of that.
We're thinking of what does this plant mean on a historical level and what does this plant mean to you?
All of us have started blowing dandelions to make wishes.
Why?
Who started that?
(05:50):
Who told you this, right?
Somebody told it to me.
I'm sure somebody told it to you.
Somebody told it to somebody else.
We all knew that four-leaf clovers were lucky for some reason.
And we would sit, and years ago, for those who were born after 97, y'all didn't do this, but for years, we would sit and find four-leaf clovers or drink the nectar from honeysuckles.
(06:15):
So, those historic rituals or methods or practices and all of the above were shared with people.
So, that's where ethnobotany is to me.
It is literally our connection and our love letter and sometimes our disdain for plants and how we have influenced them and how they have influenced us.
(06:37):
And that's an offshoot, influencing them, they influencing us, of Michael Pollan from the Botany of Bizarre, his definition of ethnobotany.
Well, cool.
I mean, it's a lot.
And as you've said, I think we had a point where we were super connected to the land and then we got up to the point where we're not connected at all.
(06:59):
And of course, we have a close history to that because we were out in the fields and doing these different things and just learning from whatever we took from the motherland to here and then integrating, I guess, whatever was growing here and we found our way to make things work.
So, how have you integrated that into what you do every day?
How do you integrate that history combined with modern botany?
(07:22):
That's a very good question.
So, I say history and speak of history regardless of how offended someone may be.
When we talk about history, history isn't a thing that you can just jump upset at, right?
It may be upsetting, but you should not be offended.
So, if what I say offends you, if you find yourself offended, then you have to do some soul searching and see what's wrong with you.
(07:47):
I do a class on the ethnobotany of Vanilla called Vanilla So Black.
And in that, I talk about Edmund Alvius, who is the botanist, the horticulturalist, and the reason that we have vanilla in such plentiful amounts as we do today.
An enslaved child who was 12, figured out the technique that you use by hand.
(08:13):
You have to pollinate vanilla orchids by hand.
He figured out that technique, and that technique is still used to this day.
This is from the 1800s to now.
We use the same technique by hand.
Him dying in poverty isn't just because, oh, he didn't pivot himself right.
(08:33):
It's racist.
There are some things we just can't wipe away.
There are some things we just can't excuse away to make somebody feel good.
We can't keep playing tiddlywinks with a coffee pot and a tea kettle because some people get upset.
So, that is how I integrate it in.
I start off with a quote in most of my lectures from a Black person.
In most.
(08:54):
There's one I do it from a green person because I do care about the frog, but outside of that, it's a Black person that I do in most of them.
I will find a way to throw in historical facts about plants in.
And even when I'm doing my social media talking, there are certain moments where I will be like, hey, if you're just upset that a Black person said this and a Black person is a scientist, just tell me that versus giving me a bunch of, you know, him and an arm.
(09:19):
So, I just try to be myself.
I try to be legitimate, and I try to be unapologetically me, unapologetically Black, unapologetically botanical, while also recognizing what that means and what I need to do to walk into this space.
I hope that answers your question.
Yeah, and just to give folks an idea exactly of what your point of reference is and how you teach and the history that comes along with it, because that's going to be important.
(09:49):
Speaking frankly, the way that they're scrubbing history off of everything and scrubbing history out of American history, because our history is American history, I think that's a very important thing to do, to constantly keep the stories going, because we don't need someone else to hold our stories.
We always need to keep telling our stories.
(10:09):
The way you're doing it is great, because you're not just teaching history, you're showing how it relates to daily life as things get more and more interesting.
And as I said, it's people growing their own food, not really, you know, not really knowing where to turn for information.
So, it's great to have sources that are active and know what they're talking about.
So, we can go to this person and say, okay, I heard this crazy thing, does this thing work?
(10:33):
But speaking of planting things, I noticed that you are a flower guy.
What is your favorite flower?
I know you mentioned you like lilies, but lilies is my favorite flower.
What is yours?
I love lilies and day lilies.
Asiatic lilies, which are Lilyaceae in that family and Hemerocallis are day lilies.
(10:54):
I also love spider lilies or Lycoris.
I cannot remember what family they are in.
I think they're in the Emerald family, but I love those flowers as well.
Lycoris radiata, beautiful red flowers.
Those of you who are anime lovers, you watch the anime, and I'm not talking about Tina Turner, you will love a beautiful Lycoris because you've seen it in some of your favorite anime shows.
(11:16):
Outside of roses, which I think are just the queen of flowers, those are my favorite.
Everywhere I've been, I've always ended up with lilies in the yard without even planning them.
I don't know if that's just a me thing or if it's just the universe speaking to me, but it's always great when I went there.
This place has the pink ones, which of course I don't know the names, that have the spots on it.
(11:40):
Last place I was at had the big orange day lilies, and they were tall and just gorgeous and the smell, yeah.
Do you have any other favorites?
Well, they're common, so that's where you'll see them a lot in the yard.
I think a lot of people will try to treat them basic and common.
They're something that's showy.
People just love them, and they may not know what they are, but for me, they're just beautiful because there's such a diversity there.
(12:05):
Between day lilies and Asiatic lilies, you have those that have fragrance and those that don't.
You have different colors, different flower shapes, different flower duration, some that return and flower twice, some that are just looking all types of ways, some that grow like tiger lilies.
They grow these little black bubbles, these little black circles that grow on the stems, which you can propagate and make more.
(12:28):
There's just such a diversity.
That's where I like them, but those are my favorite, I should say, perennials, and I love sunflowers.
Sunflowers are my favorite annuals, and then the borderline between perennial Jerusalem artichokes, I love those.
Yeah, one of those people with the artichokes is, I know people eat them, and a couple of times I've had it, I didn't get it.
(12:53):
I'm like, there's really not much here.
Are you talking about regular artichokes or Jerusalem artichokes?
Uh-oh.
So, okay.
See, I'm already showing I'm not so smart with certain things.
Yeah, don't say that.
But yeah, the one where you take the edible and you're supposed to scrape it with your teeth, and I'm like, how is anyone supposed to live off of this?
That's, this is not...
(13:13):
So, that artichoke is different than a Jerusalem artichoke.
So, a Jerusalem artichoke, number one, look, you don't have to be smart at nothing, right?
We all got our good skills, so don't talk about yourself that way, my sister.
All right, I can't, I gotta stand with that.
Number two, when it comes to Jerusalem artichokes, they are in the sunflower family, Elianthus, right?
(13:37):
You may have seen them if you go to your local Lowe's, your Whole Foods, sometimes they're in your Harris Teeter, if you got them in your area.
Some of y'all got the K-Rogers still in your area, go there.
But anywhere where you get some decent grocery food, you go to the vegetation section, they are unassuming little tubers.
(13:58):
They look similar to like small potatoes, almost like a thicker turmeric, but it's different.
And it's like a little tuber, it's starchy, not as starchy as a potato, but it has kind of a nutty quality to it as well.
And these tubers, you can grow in your garden.
You could take a couple of inches and get a lot because they can be, depending on how you set up and how your garden is set up, they can be a little invasive, but they are natives to the Americas.
(14:27):
And they grow these gigantic, 10 or so foot tall, weedy looking sunflowers.
So they're just beautiful to me, thick stems.
They could just put on biomass like nobody's business.
You dig them up, you eat a bunch of them, save a couple, and you just start it over again.
So you could literally prepare them almost like anything you could do with a potato to a certain extent.
(14:52):
Okay.
I'm huge on substitution and with food scarcity and food insecurity and all that, just encouraging people to try different things, to start expanding your palate, because even when things get more difficult or more scarce, people are still going to gravitate to what they know until they can't have that anymore.
(15:12):
I've always been an advocate for expanding your palate, try different grains, try different foods that you don't normally eat, even if you don't love it.
Because if people are making a run of the store, you're able to go to the stuff that people aren't fighting over.
So that sounds like a good substitute for someone who maybe can't get potatoes or wants some alternatives to that would be a good substitute for a regular potato.
(15:36):
I imagine so.
It's a decent substitute, I would say.
So as far as like culinarily, I haven't tried it in a lot of other things.
I've chopped them up, I've roasted them, but I'm not going to say it's a perfect thing because I'm Eastern Carolinian.
So when it comes to like, you can substitute cauliflower and get cauliflower rice, I'm like, nope, because it's not rice.
(15:56):
And you can do whatever you want to that cauliflower and still cauliflower.
It's just going to be, oh, this is good.
I wanted rice, but I still had cauliflower.
For me, that substitution magic doesn't work.
For those of you who are like, I want to grow these and get a nice flower, a decent flower, I say grow it.
(16:16):
So it does actually flower other than just being a food.
It's actually a flower.
What does it look like as a flower?
Sunflower.
It's not like this typical sunflower.
I feel like the heads are a little smaller.
So then you would use the seeds.
Do they have the heads like the sunflower?
So you'd be using the seeds out of that.
(16:38):
But again, you can eat the seeds, I'm sure.
But the biggest part is that tuber, that rhizome, I should say, underneath the ground.
So it's these little nubs and you just pull them off.
And again, like if you're growing ginger, those of you who try to grow ginger or turmeric, you pull up a lot of them, you leave one or two, you can't eat them all, unless you're just going to buy some more for the next year.
(16:59):
You leave one or two, and then from there, you just plant those one or two next year and you just start all over.
Yeah, I definitely would like to try that.
Again, it's just a matter of having variety and substitution.
And then if we get back to the age of bartering, which I believe will be a thing, and it's probably starting to be a thing among some of us, it's good to have something, even if you don't particularly eat it, someone else might like it.
(17:25):
Because at some point, I believe food will become currency.
So the more varied you are in what you can grow and having knowledge of diverse types of food, I think would be to everyone's advantage.
So I appreciate that.
I have to go look for that.
Jumping back, now you were speaking when we were talking about ethnobotany, you have those that wonder, as Black people, you have those that wonder why we bring up race so much during conversations.
(17:51):
And I was reading one of your interviews, and I love your take on being treated differently as a Black person is no different than how someone would treat different plants.
And I thought that was a brilliant way to make others understand how we may unconsciously treat others differently.
When you've said that, what has been the response?
I don't even remember saying that.
(18:12):
Where did I say that?
Go ahead with the rest of your questions.
I don't remember.
Well, just getting some more background, because trying to not ask the same old questions, and that hit me pretty, I thought that was a very different thing to say.
So yeah, but you had said that would help us understand how we may unconsciously treat others differently.
(18:37):
And I'm like, man, I wonder how people reacted when he said that to them, because that made me immediately go, oh, wow.
So I'm going to tell you like this.
There's a lot of people, I say a lot of stuff.
I'll say this because I do not remember saying that.
It sounds familiar.
It sounds like something I would say.
(18:57):
It does sound like me.
It sounds like my voice.
But I don't remember saying that.
But what typically happens is in the moment when I am just going and talking, and God just shoots me some metaphors, simile, or whatever, the people are in love with it.
And it is rare that a person will hear that and come to me in my face and be like, oh, yeah, they're meant to be a little sensitive.
(19:24):
But they rarely do that.
Now, on the internet, the keyboard Klansmen, as I've been calling them recently, will come up and call me everything, all types of N-words.
I should have been in slavery, should still be going.
We should have never gave these Africans degrees and all this other stuff.
(19:44):
These are like actual quotes.
They gave me my plantation date to go out to the plantation.
And all this other stuff happened.
But I think the biggest thing is when I run into those foolish people, number one, a majority of them are cowards because though keyboard Klansmen will never have a profile, I should say rare have a profile.
(20:06):
It's bot or a person who you made a troll account, you don't post your face, and you don't post anything.
I told some of those people, like, if you want to really impress me, show your face.
Put your first and last name, your real first and last name up there.
(20:26):
Show your government.
Let me see who you is.
But you don't because you're afraid and you know what repercussions will be.
So you just, you go in the closet and do that.
And while Michael Jackson said, keep it in the closet, I say, look, if you ain't going to be living off the wall, then I can't rock with you.
(20:47):
So with that being said, it is human nature for us to be able to run into racism.
It is human nature with that.
But when I run into those foolish people, I just told them and I just can't stop until I get enough.
So at that point, I hope they look at the man or the woman in the mirror and try to do better.
(21:10):
But usually they think they're invincible and they just don't.
So with that being said, they usually don't again come to me in any way crazy in person, but people typically love those conversations when I have.
And there are some well-meaning white people who I will have those conversations with to be able to showcase to them why I do the things I do and I say the things I say when they do ask me and they're coming from a place of sincerity.
(21:39):
Yeah.
And I think conversation is great and it's definitely the approach is everything.
We are in extremely sensitive times at this point.
There's a whole lot of distrust and not understanding where we stand as white people with the whole thing, even though we kind of made it plain.
So yeah, I love all the Michael Jackson references, but yeah, it's definitely a good conversation to have.
(22:01):
And I think that particular quote, because I know I say things all the time and someone will come back to me later and say, well, you had said this so and so a few years ago and I never forgot it.
And I'm like, I did?
Okay, cool.
I mean, if it impacted you, I think that that's great.
Words are powerful and sometimes you don't remember.
I think we remember when people say awful things to us and we don't remember enough of when someone says something really profound and giving credit where that to do.
(22:27):
So I thank you for that because that really made me think about it.
I said, you know what?
I think he's a hundred percent correct.
Someone might walk up to a lily and treat it differently than they would treat a rose and not really know why.
So I think that would be a good opportunity for some self-reflection as well as just sounding really cool.
I appreciate that.
Yeah.
And speaking of more plants, I am a huge coffee person.
(22:51):
As I've gotten older, I can tolerate less of it, but I love my coffee.
And I know that because it's not something that I think we can grow here, maybe we can get into that.
But some of the substitutes, like this mushroom coffee, those are two words that don't go together for me.
Like mushrooms are mushrooms, love them.
Coffee's coffee.
(23:11):
I can't with that.
And the other substitute is dandelion coffee.
And you figure, okay, well, they're pretty much everywhere.
However, have you tried it or know anyone who's tried it and says, you know what?
This kind of tastes like coffee.
I can get with this, but I have not tried it.
And considering that I think coffee is going to become a luxury item, I might have to make some adaptations.
(23:34):
So what's your opinion on that?
So I've seen this one mushroom coffee that's been all over the internet.
The luxuries have been touting about it.
They hit me up and was like, we want you to do stuff, which number one, any company hits me up.
And I'm going to say this here.
I think this is an announcement.
(23:55):
You may be the one capturing this for the first time.
If you as a company decide to hit me up because you want me to promote your project or your product, I want you to listen and slavery ended officially around 1863.
I think they had one enslaved working woman still working in the 19th because they didn't tell her she was free, but I know that I'm free.
(24:17):
So because of that, I don't work for free because I am free.
So you're going to have to give me some money and not a product.
It's like $30.
And you hope that I'm just going to be like happy with that because I've seen a lot of these, these companies try to sell you on marketing.
And it's like, yeah, no, if I have a good rapport with you, if I'm already using your product, that's one thing.
(24:39):
But if you reach out to me, open up your pocketbook, get out to check book and go from there.
So mushroom coffee, I have tried that one product.
I'm not going to miss them by name.
It was terrible to me.
It did not help me to really get a, uh, an up in my day.
And it was just not, not it for me.
(25:00):
And I'm not really a coffee person.
I was going to ask you, are you a coffee drinker?
So if I drink coffee, it's with a lot of cream and sugar.
So that's already one thing.
And when I was trying to like jazz it up, I was like, Hmm, this isn't really like, there's something in this that I don't want to taste up.
And I don't know what it is.
And I've actually, you know what they sent me the product.
They said, you don't have to.
(25:20):
And then they asked, so they try to do that where it's central product.
And now that you got it, do you mind making it?
No, I do mind.
I'm not going to do it.
Leave me alone.
So that was them.
I've not tried dandelion coffee.
Um, I have had your upon tea from a good company in the triangle whose name is escaping me.
(25:40):
And I wish I could remember that name cause they're good people, but, um, that's supposed to have some caffeine in it, but I can't remember their name.
But when it comes to these substitutes, like I mentioned earlier, when you get a substitute in mind for me, especially being an Eastern Carolinian, I have to keep in mind, there are some things where you can substitute and it tastes just like the substitution.
(26:01):
And one thing I might be able to think of is like sumac.
I think sumac is supposed to be a citrus taste.
So when you use sumac, it tastes like citrus.
I've made lemonade before using lemongrass and because lemongrass has such a beautiful lemon taste, it doesn't have an acidic bite of it, but it has a lemon taste.
It's like, Oh, okay, great.
This is great.
(26:22):
I've got like, you know, a thing going here.
That's how I fell in love with lemon balm because it had the lemon without the bitter.
Yeah.
It's like, okay, this is great.
And it works because you say I want a lemon taste.
It has a lemon taste.
It's a one for one matchup.
There are some things where people just want me to pretend.
They want me to go in the world of make-believe like I'm on Mr. Rogers neighborhood and I don't know King Friday, so I'm not allowed there.
(26:50):
So because of that, I'm just going to have to go in and just not drink this thing.
So that's how I feel with it.
When it comes to some of these things, I always tell people, try it.
But when they say dandelion coffee, mushroom coffee, and I still got to tell myself this, don't have your mouth ready for the same coffee you get from a coffee chain from Seattle, any of your local coffee chains or your couple folders in the morning.
(27:17):
It's going to be different.
And then from there, you have to decide if you like it.
Okay.
Now, I'm willing to try anything once.
This is probably a botany question that I probably should know and don't.
I love chicory coffee.
And of course, I tried that when I visited New Orleans and I'm like, you know what?
This is really good.
(27:37):
What?
Now, isn't chicory a wood or a root?
What is chicory exactly?
That's a very good question.
And I love to be able to tell people that I don't know stuff.
I have no clue.
I believe that when I say this, I know some of the people who will be ready for me to fail and falter, being ready to throw some Ds on my name.
(27:59):
But I do sometimes slip and I fall.
So I don't know everything.
And I wish I did.
Oh God, I wish I did.
But I'm not going to lie to you on this internet.
I feel like chicory is an herb and is a root.
But I would have to open my computer and Google real quick.
(28:19):
Yeah, I just thought about that.
Talking about substitutes.
And I'm like, yeah, what is chicory exactly?
My computer has been not acting crazy.
I was just opened up and look real quick.
But now would be the time where it would be like, hey, Derek, I'm not going to work at all.
And I'm going to embarrass you on the internet.
And I'm not going to have that happen.
Oh, no, that's something to look up then, because it's like, OK, maybe I could just go from regular coffee beans and just drink chicory.
(28:45):
Maybe I can, you know, that I can get away with and kind of like you said, lie to yourself and say, OK, this is pretty much it.
I can get with this as opposed to these other.
It was good to you.
Like, definitely give me time to see if you can find it locally.
If you can source it locally or if you can support a small, especially a small black business or a white business in general, let's see if they can ship it this way.
(29:06):
Yeah, I would love to.
Now I have seen coffee plants for sale.
Like you have some online nurseries that will actually sell coffee plants.
And just my basic understanding of it, it takes a lot.
And I don't think people realize how hard coffee is to grow and how much work it is to harvest and just get it to coffee as we know it.
(29:27):
It's difficult.
And you've got to pick a lot of stuff to get a lot of a lot of coffee to get any amount of coffee.
Can we as Americans grow it here?
What would it take?
And is it worth doing or is it just too much work because we just there's a reason we get our coffee from somewhere else?
So like if you were a person that's just in your yard and you said, I want to grow a coffee plant, you would have to be in the right place for it.
(29:50):
And I feel like this is just off a memory.
When it comes to coffee, coffee is a radical.
Coffee comes from warmer climates.
And I can't.