June 1, 2025 • 68 mins
Living in NYC during Covid 19 was a unique experience that author Dr. Anna Bounds wrote about in her recent book, "Urban Preppers and The Pandemic in New York City." Listen to her insight on the urban prepping subculture, the effect of the pandemic on the different residents, and why she chose not to abandon the city she loves when she could have.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) Living in New York City during COVID-19
was a unique experience that author Dr. Anna
Bounds wrote about in a recent book.
Listen for her insight on the urban prepping
subculture, the effect of the pandemic on the
different residents, and why she chose not to
abandon the city she loves when she could
have.
This is the urban lady prepper and I
would like to welcome a very special guest,
(00:22):
Dr. Anna Bounds, and she is going to
discuss her books with us and I'm very
pleased to have her on.
And just to give you some background, Anna
Maria Bounds is an associate professor of sociology
at Queens College and City University of New
York, teaching courses on urban sociology and social
science research methods.
Her research interests focus on urban ethnography, city
(00:44):
subcultures, city tourism, and public space.
Her first book, Bracing for the Apocalypse, an
Ethnographic Study of New York's Prepper Subculture, is
a book that explores the rise of urban
preppers in her city.
Her current book is Urban Preppers and the
Pandemic in New York City, Class, Resilience, and
Sheltering in Place.
She holds a PhD in urban and public
(01:05):
policy from the New School and earned an
MA in writing from Old Dominion University.
Her books shattered a perception that most preppers
are lone wolves and dispels the trope of
the prepper as the isolated rural white male
obsessed with firearms.
So she shows the difference between these different
preppers.
Those standard stereotypical preppers worry about what the
government has in store for them, while urban
(01:27):
preppers, on the other hand, worry that the
government has nothing in store for them.
This perspective gets to the heart of what
and why I do what I do.
So it's an absolute pleasure to have her
on and provide her take on prepping and
share her lived experience at Ground Zero for
the pandemic, which inspired her book.
So Dr. Bounds, thank you very much for
being on the show.
(01:48):
I enjoyed your book and as someone who
was not in her native New York when
the pandemic happened, it was a fantastic insight
into what life was like in New York
where I have friends and family.
Well, thank you very much for having me.
It's a real pleasure to be here.
And when I say pleasure, I think that,
you know, I'm delighted that we've talked previously.
You know, I'm delighted to have a conversation
(02:08):
with you.
You have a lot of really meaningful points,
themes to add to, you know, the discussion
of prepping.
But I'm also glad to be here because
we need to mark the moment.
One of the things about the pandemic is
it was very traumatic for people.
And I'm worried that we're going to, just
like with other pandemics, you know, that we're
(02:28):
going to be so busy trying to get
out of that moment to forget that we're
not going to be able to pass along
meaningful information to help people and future pandemics,
which is certainly going to happen.
I mean, take a look at New York.
We're an international gateway city.
You know, the world is much more global
(02:48):
now than it has been at any moment
in history.
So unfortunately, we're going to be, you know,
dealing with epidemics.
So thanks so much for having me.
Yes.
Yes.
And I think that's a very important perspective
to have because I think that now folks
are, that haven't thought about prepping, may have
started to get interested in it now because
(03:10):
I think there's this, I don't know if
I want to call it a renaissance, but
there appears to be this whole, oh, you
know what?
Maybe those crazy peppers were right all along.
And we kind of were.
And the things that we're doing and the
message that we're trying to get out here
is more relevant than ever considering all the
things that are going on now.
Different peppers have their take on what the
(03:30):
end of the world is going to look
like.
And right now we're looking at a whole
bunch of them coalescing together.
So it really kind of is anybody's guess
at what will happen next, but is a
good possibility that it could be a couple
of them at once, just starting with all
the crazy weather that we're having and the
various financial situations that are happening and whatnot.
So I think it's the whole pepper culture
(03:53):
might be getting a second look from those
who might've thought we were chicken littles.
So to give folks a little more background,
please define the word ethnography for those who
aren't familiar with the term.
Sure.
Well, sociology is the business of studying people
and organizations, social groups, and trying to figure
out what makes them tick.
(04:14):
And being an ethnographer means that I do
qualitative research.
I go out into the field and interact
with individuals directly in their social groups and
work as a participant observer to try to
figure out the how and why.
So for me, when it came to prepping,
I was interested in trying to figure out
why people are prepping and how people are
(04:36):
prepping.
But to compound that, New York is becoming
an increasingly riskier place to live.
So I'd been through September 11th, I'd been
through Hurricane Sandy, several terrorist attacks, all sorts
of things.
And so for me, I saw that the
(04:57):
nature of city life was changing and that
being a New Yorker wasn't just about street
smarts, it was about survival smarts as well.
So this is very much a professional interest
that has really intersected with my personal life
because I discovered in too many disasters, I
was coming up short.
I was the person, like I have often
(05:18):
teased about, the person with the flashlight, but
no batteries, the person with the peanut butter,
but no bread, the person with $50 instead
of gold money or whatever the case may
be.
No can openers.
That's right.
That's right.
That's right.
And one of the preppers interviewed insurance, that's
something really interesting.
We were talking about the idea that with
(05:40):
the pandemic, so many more people, just like
you said, had become interested in prepping.
And so I asked her, I wanted to
hear it in her own voice, how do
you distinguish people who store food and try
to look out for their families versus people
who are really living the lifestyle of prepping?
And she said, well, you have to think
about it this way.
(06:01):
When you are a prepper, you're someone who
really is prepared.
You have a plan B, but not just
a plan B, you have a plan C.
So what if you're a regular person and
you have all this canned food and you
have a can opener and it breaks?
Well, then who are you?
You're just a person with a bunch of
cans.
And I thought, well, that's a really effective
way of thinking about it.
(06:22):
Yeah.
And there was, I know I'm going to
completely butcher it, but there was an expression.
If you have two, you're good.
If you have one, you have none.
One is none.
Right.
Okay.
Right.
And Marlon Smith from Urban Outdoor Survival has
said that more than once.
And he said, I believe that his grandfather
(06:43):
or his father instilled that to him and
it's also in him.
And it's also very much a military phrase
that you certainly need to be prepared.
And unfortunately, a lot of us saw that
when we had some supplies during the pandemic,
but not enough.
And that could be everything from prescriptions that
you were unable to get to losing a
(07:07):
pair of eyeglasses and only having one pair
and then misplacing those.
I don't know how many stories I heard
from regular people about just simple things like
that.
You choose birth control for women.
And I was like, yep, I'm totally ready
to go.
And then I break my glasses.
All sorts of things.
And I talk about that in the book.
(07:28):
It's pretty funny because I'm wearing glasses right
now, but they're mainly for reading.
But the funny thing is, I already had
a prepping closet since I had been studying
preppers.
Actually, when my book came out was in
2020, right when the pandemic started.
So you see to God that I had
worked with preppers and that they had training
properly to have stores at home and also
(07:52):
to have a bug out bag, because that
meant that I had the personal equipment ready.
We had masks, we had a sanitizer, we
have rings, everything that we needed.
So we didn't have to worry.
And so we, just like a lot of
the preppers that I talk about in the
book at New York, when the pandemic, when
things really started to shift in late February,
early March, we were able to help other
(08:13):
people and serve as information resources.
Well, it was fascinating that I saw a
lot of people, you know, serving as information
resources for their neighborhood, for their family members,
and trying to help people because they were
already prepared, trying to share the information that
they had really wanted to share for so
long.
And in some ways, you know, it's sad
(08:35):
because the first part of that story is,
like you said, kind of a vindication.
Not that, you know, you wanted something bad
to happen, but I heard from, you know,
more than one prepper, a statement that, like
I said, we weren't glad that this happened,
but, you know, we're glad that we're prepared
and we're glad that we could share our
knowledge with other people.
(08:56):
I think Marlon said something that was really
interesting.
He said, yeah, you know, neighbors who knew
I was a prepper and thought I was
a weirdo for five years, suddenly were texting
me and asking for my information.
So asking for, you know, me to share
my knowledge.
And I received, you know, calls, you know,
several calls, too.
Everyone did who had some, you know, who
(09:16):
had some knowledge.
Well, and I have a question about that,
too, because I know that the first book,
the prior book, Bracing for the Apocalypse, that
came out before the pandemic, if I'm not
mistaken.
Did you contact some of these preppers post
-pandemic?
My book came out in 2020.
Okay, I'm thinking summer 2020, the pandemic hit
(09:41):
March 2020.
I stayed in contact with everyone.
So the people that I talked about in
the book, the people that I interviewed with,
you know, in the first book, it's a
continuation in the second book.
The distinction is in the first book, it's
people practicing their skills in the event of
an emergency, whether it's, you know, bugging in
or bugging out.
(10:02):
And then with the second book, it's taking
a look at their success, what skills that
they spent so much time learning to the
test, which was pretty fascinating, terrifying, but, you
know, fascinating as a research project, for sure.
Yeah.
And now, one, you have a lot of
facts and figures in there, which I really
appreciate.
And I think that because there was so
(10:23):
much misinformation and disinformation about what the statistics
were, and, you know, there was folks out
there like, oh, those numbers aren't true, those
numbers can't be real.
So I really liked the fact that you
got into the weeds with that.
You intertwined the experiences of the people, but
with the facts and figures that back up
what was going on in the city.
But one of the things that you focused
(10:44):
on that I thought was interesting was how
the folks that had money or the folks
that were wealthy, when it became clear that
we were probably going to be on lockdown,
that they got out of New York.
And of course, with them left, well, I
mean, the pandemic, nobody was really making any
money because everyone was locked down.
But you have a good portion of the
population and tax base that have moved out,
(11:07):
not moved out, but got out of the
area.
And some of them never did come back.
So I'm just curious, how do you think
that the pandemic would have been different if
everyone stayed?
That's interesting that because it's something that comes
up a lot in conversations, and it's a
really important question.
I think one of the things to keep
in mind is the good news is that
(11:29):
most of those people have returned.
But certainly, I think that the first important
thing is that these weren't terrible people who
left.
That's not the argument that I'm making at
all.
I live in an affluent neighborhood.
At the time, I lived in Greenwich Village,
an area by Manhattan with a very high
(11:50):
income average.
And on my floor, I think we had
15 apartments, and there were only three apartments
occupied by, I want to say, the beginning
of April.
And we were one of those apartments.
People left.
And it's important to keep in mind that
it shows, when I say people, that that
significant amount of people leaving the city showed
(12:13):
the stark contrast between classes, right?
That some people could be affluent enough to
say, oh, wait a minute, something's happening.
I can leave immediately and go to my
second home.
Or I can go and buy a place
in cash, because there were people who were
able to do that.
Or I can go and find a place
to rent for a while.
And that's terrific that they could do that,
(12:35):
but not everyone could.
So we need to think about, in terms
of services to the city, there were concerns
about being able to generate at that time
enough tax revenue.
Because, of course, having wealth in the city
means that you can help those people who
are less fortunate through our social service net.
So there was definitely a concern about the
drain to the economy.
There was also a concern about tax revenue.
(12:57):
And there was also a concern about businesses,
local businesses, like small restaurants and things, that
would provide delivery closed in these neighborhoods.
And so we can talk about on the
economic level, but there's also an important social
level to consider.
When you have neighborhoods emptied out, and they're
(13:17):
not 24 hours, they're not well populated, that
causes the neighborhood to change.
Now, when you take a look at the
crime rates in New York, you could argue
that the crime rates were lower.
But in some areas, the tenor of the
neighborhood definitely changed.
Like, for example, walking to the grocery store,
for me, before the pandemic, wasn't an issue.
(13:39):
Walking to the grocery store during the pandemic,
because there wasn't the presence of people, was
very scary, because there were certain portions that
I had to walk through, where you had
people just sitting on the street in the
middle of the day, shooting up heroin.
And the area that I'm talking about is
a very well-to-do area.
(14:00):
I'm talking about the area of, you know,
basically leaving Mercer, walking through the village to
the Flatiron.
Okay, you had different homeless camps, and you
had individuals who had been released from a
mental health facility.
So there was a lot of aggression on
(14:20):
the street that people didn't talk about.
You know, there were certain areas, you know,
of course, we were all in lockdown.
But unfortunately, sometimes you couldn't get deliveries in
all the time, so you had to go
places.
And then people had to work.
There were certain essential workers.
And essential workers had to work.
The subway was different.
You know, the streets were different.
And a lot of that had to do
(14:41):
with people not being there.
It's only now, where we've gotten on the
subway, where we've gotten much closer to the
amount of people, to subway ridership than before
the pandemic.
It's still dramatically, you know, lower.
But, you know, the city became less safe.
And so I think a lot about this,
(15:02):
because then people say, well, what could they
have done?
Well, there were a lot of people who,
you know, did things like since their food
banks weren't working, you know, there was a
labor issue.
People who would make food for elderly people
who they knew in their apartment building, or
in their neighborhood somewhere, and place the food
outside their door.
You know, there were people who would contribute,
(15:24):
you know, to food, community food banks, you
know, literally refrigerators, and areas where people would
leave groceries that popped up.
So the idea is that if you were
more fluent person, you would be more able
to do that.
And then also, you know, serve as the
presence, the neighborhood to help increase safety and
(15:45):
to help businesses, and also to win morale.
I mean, to be someone who wanted to
leave but couldn't, that was it.
For some people, I'm a bitter pill.
And I had people stay in touch with
a lot of people, elite preppers as well,
who were gone late February, early February, mid
-February.
I mean, as soon as things hit, they
said, we're not, we're not coming back.
(16:05):
And they didn't.
Yeah, because I was curious.
It's because on one hand, you figure, okay,
there's going to be a lot less people
doing the, doing the work, doing the jobs,
being out.
I just wonder if there's any sort of
offset, because with so many people leaving, and,
you know, fewer people in the hospitals, or
police, or restaurants, or delivery, those kind of
services, that having less of a population, do
(16:26):
you think that made it easier?
Or the people, if they had stayed, it
would have made things better from a financial
perspective?
Well, in terms of when I talk about
the people leaving, I talk about it's not
finance, it's social, it's morale, it's safety, it's
all sorts of things bundled up.
And it's also, too, how you define yourself
as a citizen.
(16:47):
I'm a researcher, I'm objective.
But it was interesting to see, you know,
the real dismay about people leaving.
Like, for example, there was one individual that
I interview in my book, who basically labeled
everyone who left, you know, they're not real
New Yorkers.
Well, sure, they are.
Sure, they are, you know.
But it's also important to understand that when
(17:09):
New Yorkers that left the city, they went
to places, and there was concern that they
were going to tax the hospitals, because a
lot of places that they went to were
essentially seasonal towns.
You know, people went and visited them in
the summer, right, like the Hamptons.
And what do we see with the Hamptons?
We see that homes in the Hamptons have
skyrocketed even more, even areas surrounding the very
(17:32):
exclusive section, they had an overcrowding of schools,
right, and they had concerns about their facilities.
But it wasn't just the Hamptons, that happened
in all the places that they went, you
know, because they faced a tremendous amount of
pressure.
Yeah, and also the culture clash.
You have folks that are just coming to
New York, and now they're going into these
rural areas, and it's a whole thing.
(17:54):
And I was just curious, it's like, okay,
well, if we have less services available, maybe
having less people wasn't the worst thing, because
maybe it would put less of a strain
on the folks that had to do, you
know, the work, like the essential workers, so.
That's really interesting.
Here's the response that I have.
You could say, yes, essential workers had, that
(18:15):
may have lessened the burden, but I would
argue that these people who were particularly affluent
were not people who needed the subways to
be cleaned.
When you take a look at these areas,
a lot of people who could walk to
work, or they could take private transportation, so
it was a different game for them.
And a lot of them had access at
that point to telehealth, so they didn't need
(18:36):
to go to the ER, right?
So these were people who, you know, unless
it was a really critical situation, wouldn't have
to be going to the hospital, right?
You know, these people, you know, these are,
yeah, and so that's an interesting thing.
For example, when we take a look at
the education system, these were people, wherever they
were, could afford access to high-speed internet
(19:00):
and had technology at home for their children
to continue with their education.
Whereas, you know, people who made less money,
definitely that was a significant hardship for them.
It was a significant hardship because school provides
daycare, right?
You know, and then also being it, so
(19:22):
if you were a central worker, that was
particularly, you know, problematic.
And then also, you know, not having access
to technology, it was tremendous in terms of
the high speed, you know, the proper computers
to take it home, and also being familiar
and comfortable with how to use the technology.
It's not something that you, you know, all
(19:43):
of a sudden you're the teacher.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, it was, all of
a sudden they're just going to do online
learning, and I'm like, yeah, because they're so
used to doing this on top of everything
else that they, they're overburdened with in general.
Now they have to figure out how to
teach a class online.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and here was the interesting
thing that, that, about preppers.
(20:03):
A lot of preppers thought that, you know,
when a disaster would strike, that they would
have to, they were still prepared, you know,
but the thinking was, you know, I know
how to shelter in place, but the likelihood,
if something happens, we're going to have to
leave the city.
So there wasn't, and we won't have access
to, you know, electricity, you know, we won't
have to worry about the internet, there'll be
(20:24):
no internet.
So, so people really didn't think, okay, I
need to make sure that I have this
high tech, so in a bug in situation,
my child will be able to attend school.
So that was a big surprise, because people
were always thinking, you know, they weren't thinking
about this gradual sheltering in place thing.
They were thinking, you know, kind of all
or nothing, which is a big lesson for
(20:45):
preppers and for everybody.
Yeah, oh yeah, I even put in one
of my videos, there's no such thing as
a perfect prepper.
Nothing ever go exactly to plan, and there's
always weak spots, you know, there's always, I
shouldn't say a weak spot, but there's always
areas that someone is stronger than another, you
know, they might be great at this, but
not so great, it's, yeah, it just comes
with the, with being a prepper, you sometimes
(21:06):
have to like, you're focusing on a couple
of things, but you're always going to have
that weak spot, and you have to kind
of hope that whatever happens doesn't hit you
there, as opposed to what you're.
Right, right, yes, I agree with you, one
of the things that really worked out well
for some of the preppers that I interviewed,
they lost their job, and they were able
to rely on their go money to help
(21:27):
them, even before the subsidy started, you know,
so that was good, because you know, they
had their regular savings, and then they also
had go money, plus, you know, stores, so
they were able to rely on those, whereas
people who didn't prep had their savings, and
that was it, they didn't have their extra,
you know, money that they could rely on.
Right, as far as how people view preppers,
(21:51):
and I do love the show Doomsday's Preppers,
but I think that people saw that, and
just got the wrong idea that, you know,
folks are just prepping for like a nuclear
war, or these things that, you know, could
very well happen, but seemed improbable, and the
focus wasn't enough on just anything that could
happen, losing a job, having a blackout, you
know, you have a power outage that lasts
(22:12):
a week, you know, a blizzard, or some
sort of other weather events that keeps you
stuck in the house, and something as basic
as that, because I was in a position
where I had lost my job for a
minute, and I didn't have to go to
the store, I had everything, I had extra,
so to ride it through, and I had
(22:32):
a pipe burst, the guy was like, I
won't be able to come back for a
week, I'm like, okay, and he was like,
oh, you took that a lot better than
I thought you would.
Yeah, yeah.
I was, you know, prepared for that, so
I think that the focus for preppers has
always been like, oh, they're waiting for this
big event, and it's like, no, there are
(22:53):
small disasters that can impact you greatly, so
you need to prepare for things that are
closer to home, like that blackout, like that
blizzard, like that burst pipe, like losing that
job, and you really can't afford to go
to the store, if you have a stockpile,
then you worry a little bit less about
that kind of thing.
Right, right.
Annette, one of the preppers that I interviewed,
(23:14):
she is terrific, and she said, you know,
she said something that has always stuck with
me, you know, when I, you know, talked
about how I was going to be writing
a book, and she said, what do you
want people to know, what do you want
readers to know about preppers, and she said,
I want them to know that we're not
preparing for doomsday, we're preparing for tomorrow, and
that has always stuck with me, because it's
true, it's true, you know, I mean, where,
(23:36):
you know, I would have been scrambling, just
like everyone else, if I wouldn't have had,
you know, the, you know, the math and,
and other essentials, you know, it gave me
a moment to slow down and say, okay,
let me calm, you know, let me make
sure that my parents have everything, let me,
let me talk with my neighbors, let me,
you know, I, I had that, that security,
(23:57):
however temporary.
Right, and then also, I think we kind
of had, had a heads up a little
bit as soon as someone said, okay, this
looks like this is going to turn into
a thing, a lot of people wait until
it turns into a thing, whereas preppers are
like, even if it's not a thing, I'm
going to act like it's going to be,
and if it's not great, and if it
does, okay, I'm not quite out there.
I think one of the early banners that
(24:19):
I had on my website says, you never
know when the day before is the day
before.
Cool.
So, Linda, you brought up an important point.
One of the things, you know, at the
start of the pandemic, when, you know, people
were rushing to the store and, you know,
and, you know, buying up any and everything
they could, someone sent me a meeting, two
people fighting at, I think, a Costco in
New Jersey, and their cars were stuffed, you
(24:40):
know, crammed with all kinds of stuff.
You know, someone said, oh, look, Anna, it's
the preppers.
And I said, no, it's not.
They're whole.
They're whole.
You know, these individuals who have bought things,
and when they did, they thought carefully about
what they were purchasing.
They bought things on sale.
They're ready.
They're just now thinking about little things, you
know, trying to figure out, you know, what
(25:01):
else, you know, they might need to take
care of.
I said, those aren't them.
Well, the people that you saw fighting over
the toilet paper were not preppers at all.
And it became very clear who was and
who wasn't.
But yeah, I think that that's important for
folks to realize.
You just don't know when it's going to
happen, and you don't want to put yourself
in a situation like that where people are
(25:23):
fighting over stuff.
I mean, people will throw down on Black
Friday over a toy.
So, you have to keep in mind what
they'll do if there's a disaster and there's
no food or there's very little food, and
they're going to fight to feed their kids.
Now, do you really want to put yourself
in that position?
If you could just be a little more
prepared and do a little bit every day
or a little bit every week when you
(25:45):
can, so you don't have to put yourself
in that kind of position, especially as women.
I mean, if things get desperate, men are
not going to think anything about knocking you
down and taking what you have if it'll
feed their family.
Prepping is not just about having, it's also
about keeping yourself safe.
You don't have to put yourself in situations
like that.
And actually, I do have a question, speaking
of disasters, because, I mean, I had to
(26:05):
think about it.
When I read the book, I was like,
if I had the ability to leave, would
I have left?
And I still don't know if I would
have.
Now, obviously, you know, if there's an earthquake
or something like that where everything's devastated and
it's unlivable, that's one thing.
But is there any disaster other than the
city collapsing, like, totally collapsing like an earthquake
(26:27):
scenario that would make you leave New York?
We, with the pandemic, we did have the
ability to leave at the start, and we
didn't.
We waited several months, and then we went
and stayed with my father.
So in other words, for the initial first
wave, the real crisis, we stayed in the
city.
And I think it wasn't, I want to
(26:47):
say until sometime in 21 that we left.
And I could see, you know, my dad
was, you know, he lived alone, and he
was struggling a bit, and it was time.
And, you know, and so we, of course,
quarantined, and, you know, spent time with him.
But yeah, so, but it wasn't even like
a consideration, like with the pandemic.
(27:11):
It was, we're New Yorkers, we're here.
Yeah.
Well, you know, that's there.
It's like, I have friends and family here.
Where am I?
Yeah, I'm like, no, I'm here.
We're here.
There is a portion in the book where
I talk about when my cousin from Texas
called me, and we had a conversation.
And, you know, I told him that we
were staying in New York, and he asked
(27:32):
me, and this was before they had closed
everything, everybody was kind of racing for the
storm.
And he said, well, what we can do
is we can meet halfway, and I'll have,
you know, things and, you know, I'll have
stuff in my trunk that I think you're
going to need.
You know, you just take it to me
and you go back to New York.
And we all know he was talking, you
(27:52):
know, what he was talking about, you know,
we were talking about guns.
And, and I, you know, absolutely not, you
know, didn't want to, you know, didn't want
to go that route.
So I was definitely staying for the pandemic.
But with September 11, we did leave when
the city was shut down, I think, for
(28:12):
that night.
And I think the next day, maybe two
days, I don't exactly remember.
We did leave when we went to Philadelphia,
because our apartment had started to fill with
a very, like, funny, smoky, plastic-y, fumy
smell.
And the outside was like that.
(28:34):
And so we knew that there was no
point in us.
It was, you know, it was dangerous.
So we did leave.
We did leave.
That's understandable, because especially at that point, we
were, everyone was sensitive to everything.
If there was a fire, if there was,
you know, anything.
Yeah, it smelled dangerous.
It wasn't like, okay, this happened once, it
obviously could happen again.
We went back a few days later.
We didn't want to stay away when we
(28:56):
thought it was safe to go back to
the apartment.
So I guess to answer your question, I
guess it's when I have to leave, when
I don't have a choice.
You know, that was when we, you know,
that was when we left.
We didn't, you know, lose any of our
family or friends, but I feel for my
students.
Some of them, you know, lost their entire
(29:16):
family, you know.
So that was, you know, really challenging.
And seeing how important, and the college has
definitely made strides, all colleges have, but understanding
that college students during disasters look to the
school for support.
And I don't really think that that's something
that people had really ever thought about, I
(29:37):
think, which is another.
And I touch upon this at the end
of my book.
And one of the things that Queens College
did that I thought was really terrific was
that they started a food pantry, a mobile
food pantry to deliver groceries to students.
They also increased the number of online and
telephone counselors that they had because
(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) Living in New York City during COVID-19
was a unique experience that author Dr. Anna
Bounds wrote about in a recent book.
Listen for her insight on the urban prepping
subculture, the effect of the pandemic on the
different residents, and why she chose not to
abandon the city she loves when she could
have.
This is the urban lady prepper and I
would like to welcome a very special guest,
(00:22):
Dr. Anna Bounds, and she is going to
discuss her books with us and I'm very
pleased to have her on.
And just to give you some background, Anna
Maria Bounds is an associate professor of sociology
at Queens College and City University of New
York, teaching courses on urban sociology and social
science research methods.
Her research interests focus on urban ethnography, city
(00:44):
subcultures, city tourism, and public space.
Her first book, Bracing for the Apocalypse, an
Ethnographic Study of New York's Prepper Subculture, is
a book that explores the rise of urban
preppers in her city.
Her current book is Urban Preppers and the
Pandemic in New York City, Class, Resilience, and
Sheltering in Place.
She holds a PhD in urban and public
(01:05):
policy from the New School and earned an
MA in writing from Old Dominion University.
Her books shattered a perception that most preppers
are lone wolves and dispels the trope of
the prepper as the isolated rural white male
obsessed with firearms.
So she shows the difference between these different
preppers.
Those standard stereotypical preppers worry about what the
government has in store for them, while urban
(01:27):
preppers, on the other hand, worry that the
government has nothing in store for them.
This perspective gets to the heart of what
and why I do what I do.
So it's an absolute pleasure to have her
on and provide her take on prepping and
share her lived experience at Ground Zero for
the pandemic, which inspired her book.
So Dr. Bounds, thank you very much for
being on the show.
(01:48):
I enjoyed your book and as someone who
was not in her native New York when
the pandemic happened, it was a fantastic insight
into what life was like in New York
where I have friends and family.
Well, thank you very much for having me.
It's a real pleasure to be here.
And when I say pleasure, I think that,
you know, I'm delighted that we've talked previously.
You know, I'm delighted to have a conversation
(02:08):
with you.
You have a lot of really meaningful points,
themes to add to, you know, the discussion
of prepping.
But I'm also glad to be here because
we need to mark the moment.
One of the things about the pandemic is
it was very traumatic for people.
And I'm worried that we're going to, just
like with other pandemics, you know, that we're
(02:28):
going to be so busy trying to get
out of that moment to forget that we're
not going to be able to pass along
meaningful information to help people and future pandemics,
which is certainly going to happen.
I mean, take a look at New York.
We're an international gateway city.
You know, the world is much more global
(02:48):
now than it has been at any moment
in history.
So unfortunately, we're going to be, you know,
dealing with epidemics.
So thanks so much for having me.
Yes.
Yes.
And I think that's a very important perspective
to have because I think that now folks
are, that haven't thought about prepping, may have
started to get interested in it now because
(03:10):
I think there's this, I don't know if
I want to call it a renaissance, but
there appears to be this whole, oh, you
know what?
Maybe those crazy peppers were right all along.
And we kind of were.
And the things that we're doing and the
message that we're trying to get out here
is more relevant than ever considering all the
things that are going on now.
Different peppers have their take on what the
(03:30):
end of the world is going to look
like.
And right now we're looking at a whole
bunch of them coalescing together.
So it really kind of is anybody's guess
at what will happen next, but is a
good possibility that it could be a couple
of them at once, just starting with all
the crazy weather that we're having and the
various financial situations that are happening and whatnot.
So I think it's the whole pepper culture
(03:53):
might be getting a second look from those
who might've thought we were chicken littles.
So to give folks a little more background,
please define the word ethnography for those who
aren't familiar with the term.
Sure.
Well, sociology is the business of studying people
and organizations, social groups, and trying to figure
out what makes them tick.
(04:14):
And being an ethnographer means that I do
qualitative research.
I go out into the field and interact
with individuals directly in their social groups and
work as a participant observer to try to
figure out the how and why.
So for me, when it came to prepping,
I was interested in trying to figure out
why people are prepping and how people are
(04:36):
prepping.
But to compound that, New York is becoming
an increasingly riskier place to live.
So I'd been through September 11th, I'd been
through Hurricane Sandy, several terrorist attacks, all sorts
of things.
And so for me, I saw that the
(04:57):
nature of city life was changing and that
being a New Yorker wasn't just about street
smarts, it was about survival smarts as well.
So this is very much a professional interest
that has really intersected with my personal life
because I discovered in too many disasters, I
was coming up short.
I was the person, like I have often
(05:18):
teased about, the person with the flashlight, but
no batteries, the person with the peanut butter,
but no bread, the person with $50 instead
of gold money or whatever the case may
be.
No can openers.
That's right.
That's right.
That's right.
And one of the preppers interviewed insurance, that's
something really interesting.
We were talking about the idea that with
(05:40):
the pandemic, so many more people, just like
you said, had become interested in prepping.
And so I asked her, I wanted to
hear it in her own voice, how do
you distinguish people who store food and try
to look out for their families versus people
who are really living the lifestyle of prepping?
And she said, well, you have to think
about it this way.
(06:01):
When you are a prepper, you're someone who
really is prepared.
You have a plan B, but not just
a plan B, you have a plan C.
So what if you're a regular person and
you have all this canned food and you
have a can opener and it breaks?
Well, then who are you?
You're just a person with a bunch of
cans.
And I thought, well, that's a really effective
way of thinking about it.
(06:22):
Yeah.
And there was, I know I'm going to
completely butcher it, but there was an expression.
If you have two, you're good.
If you have one, you have none.
One is none.
Right.
Okay.
Right.
And Marlon Smith from Urban Outdoor Survival has
said that more than once.
And he said, I believe that his grandfather
(06:43):
or his father instilled that to him and
it's also in him.
And it's also very much a military phrase
that you certainly need to be prepared.
And unfortunately, a lot of us saw that
when we had some supplies during the pandemic,
but not enough.
And that could be everything from prescriptions that
you were unable to get to losing a
(07:07):
pair of eyeglasses and only having one pair
and then misplacing those.
I don't know how many stories I heard
from regular people about just simple things like
that.
You choose birth control for women.
And I was like, yep, I'm totally ready
to go.
And then I break my glasses.
All sorts of things.
And I talk about that in the book.
(07:28):
It's pretty funny because I'm wearing glasses right
now, but they're mainly for reading.
But the funny thing is, I already had
a prepping closet since I had been studying
preppers.
Actually, when my book came out was in
2020, right when the pandemic started.
So you see to God that I had
worked with preppers and that they had training
properly to have stores at home and also
(07:52):
to have a bug out bag, because that
meant that I had the personal equipment ready.
We had masks, we had a sanitizer, we
have rings, everything that we needed.
So we didn't have to worry.
And so we, just like a lot of
the preppers that I talk about in the
book at New York, when the pandemic, when
things really started to shift in late February,
early March, we were able to help other
(08:13):
people and serve as information resources.
Well, it was fascinating that I saw a
lot of people, you know, serving as information
resources for their neighborhood, for their family members,
and trying to help people because they were
already prepared, trying to share the information that
they had really wanted to share for so
long.
And in some ways, you know, it's sad
(08:35):
because the first part of that story is,
like you said, kind of a vindication.
Not that, you know, you wanted something bad
to happen, but I heard from, you know,
more than one prepper, a statement that, like
I said, we weren't glad that this happened,
but, you know, we're glad that we're prepared
and we're glad that we could share our
knowledge with other people.
(08:56):
I think Marlon said something that was really
interesting.
He said, yeah, you know, neighbors who knew
I was a prepper and thought I was
a weirdo for five years, suddenly were texting
me and asking for my information.
So asking for, you know, me to share
my knowledge.
And I received, you know, calls, you know,
several calls, too.
Everyone did who had some, you know, who
(09:16):
had some knowledge.
Well, and I have a question about that,
too, because I know that the first book,
the prior book, Bracing for the Apocalypse, that
came out before the pandemic, if I'm not
mistaken.
Did you contact some of these preppers post
-pandemic?
My book came out in 2020.
Okay, I'm thinking summer 2020, the pandemic hit
(09:41):
March 2020.
I stayed in contact with everyone.
So the people that I talked about in
the book, the people that I interviewed with,
you know, in the first book, it's a
continuation in the second book.
The distinction is in the first book, it's
people practicing their skills in the event of
an emergency, whether it's, you know, bugging in
or bugging out.
(10:02):
And then with the second book, it's taking
a look at their success, what skills that
they spent so much time learning to the
test, which was pretty fascinating, terrifying, but, you
know, fascinating as a research project, for sure.
Yeah.
And now, one, you have a lot of
facts and figures in there, which I really
appreciate.
And I think that because there was so
(10:23):
much misinformation and disinformation about what the statistics
were, and, you know, there was folks out
there like, oh, those numbers aren't true, those
numbers can't be real.
So I really liked the fact that you
got into the weeds with that.
You intertwined the experiences of the people, but
with the facts and figures that back up
what was going on in the city.
But one of the things that you focused
(10:44):
on that I thought was interesting was how
the folks that had money or the folks
that were wealthy, when it became clear that
we were probably going to be on lockdown,
that they got out of New York.
And of course, with them left, well, I
mean, the pandemic, nobody was really making any
money because everyone was locked down.
But you have a good portion of the
population and tax base that have moved out,
(11:07):
not moved out, but got out of the
area.
And some of them never did come back.
So I'm just curious, how do you think
that the pandemic would have been different if
everyone stayed?
That's interesting that because it's something that comes
up a lot in conversations, and it's a
really important question.
I think one of the things to keep
in mind is the good news is that
(11:29):
most of those people have returned.
But certainly, I think that the first important
thing is that these weren't terrible people who
left.
That's not the argument that I'm making at
all.
I live in an affluent neighborhood.
At the time, I lived in Greenwich Village,
an area by Manhattan with a very high
(11:50):
income average.
And on my floor, I think we had
15 apartments, and there were only three apartments
occupied by, I want to say, the beginning
of April.
And we were one of those apartments.
People left.
And it's important to keep in mind that
it shows, when I say people, that that
significant amount of people leaving the city showed
(12:13):
the stark contrast between classes, right?
That some people could be affluent enough to
say, oh, wait a minute, something's happening.
I can leave immediately and go to my
second home.
Or I can go and buy a place
in cash, because there were people who were
able to do that.
Or I can go and find a place
to rent for a while.
And that's terrific that they could do that,
(12:35):
but not everyone could.
So we need to think about, in terms
of services to the city, there were concerns
about being able to generate at that time
enough tax revenue.
Because, of course, having wealth in the city
means that you can help those people who
are less fortunate through our social service net.
So there was definitely a concern about the
drain to the economy.
There was also a concern about tax revenue.
(12:57):
And there was also a concern about businesses,
local businesses, like small restaurants and things, that
would provide delivery closed in these neighborhoods.
And so we can talk about on the
economic level, but there's also an important social
level to consider.
When you have neighborhoods emptied out, and they're
(13:17):
not 24 hours, they're not well populated, that
causes the neighborhood to change.
Now, when you take a look at the
crime rates in New York, you could argue
that the crime rates were lower.
But in some areas, the tenor of the
neighborhood definitely changed.
Like, for example, walking to the grocery store,
for me, before the pandemic, wasn't an issue.
(13:39):
Walking to the grocery store during the pandemic,
because there wasn't the presence of people, was
very scary, because there were certain portions that
I had to walk through, where you had
people just sitting on the street in the
middle of the day, shooting up heroin.
And the area that I'm talking about is
a very well-to-do area.
(14:00):
I'm talking about the area of, you know,
basically leaving Mercer, walking through the village to
the Flatiron.
Okay, you had different homeless camps, and you
had individuals who had been released from a
mental health facility.
So there was a lot of aggression on
(14:20):
the street that people didn't talk about.
You know, there were certain areas, you know,
of course, we were all in lockdown.
But unfortunately, sometimes you couldn't get deliveries in
all the time, so you had to go
places.
And then people had to work.
There were certain essential workers.
And essential workers had to work.
The subway was different.
You know, the streets were different.
And a lot of that had to do
(14:41):
with people not being there.
It's only now, where we've gotten on the
subway, where we've gotten much closer to the
amount of people, to subway ridership than before
the pandemic.
It's still dramatically, you know, lower.
But, you know, the city became less safe.
And so I think a lot about this,
(15:02):
because then people say, well, what could they
have done?
Well, there were a lot of people who,
you know, did things like since their food
banks weren't working, you know, there was a
labor issue.
People who would make food for elderly people
who they knew in their apartment building, or
in their neighborhood somewhere, and place the food
outside their door.
You know, there were people who would contribute,
(15:24):
you know, to food, community food banks, you
know, literally refrigerators, and areas where people would
leave groceries that popped up.
So the idea is that if you were
more fluent person, you would be more able
to do that.
And then also, you know, serve as the
presence, the neighborhood to help increase safety and
(15:45):
to help businesses, and also to win morale.
I mean, to be someone who wanted to
leave but couldn't, that was it.
For some people, I'm a bitter pill.
And I had people stay in touch with
a lot of people, elite preppers as well,
who were gone late February, early February, mid
-February.
I mean, as soon as things hit, they
said, we're not, we're not coming back.
(16:05):
And they didn't.
Yeah, because I was curious.
It's because on one hand, you figure, okay,
there's going to be a lot less people
doing the, doing the work, doing the jobs,
being out.
I just wonder if there's any sort of
offset, because with so many people leaving, and,
you know, fewer people in the hospitals, or
police, or restaurants, or delivery, those kind of
services, that having less of a population, do
(16:26):
you think that made it easier?
Or the people, if they had stayed, it
would have made things better from a financial
perspective?
Well, in terms of when I talk about
the people leaving, I talk about it's not
finance, it's social, it's morale, it's safety, it's
all sorts of things bundled up.
And it's also, too, how you define yourself
as a citizen.
(16:47):
I'm a researcher, I'm objective.
But it was interesting to see, you know,
the real dismay about people leaving.
Like, for example, there was one individual that
I interview in my book, who basically labeled
everyone who left, you know, they're not real
New Yorkers.
Well, sure, they are.
Sure, they are, you know.
But it's also important to understand that when
(17:09):
New Yorkers that left the city, they went
to places, and there was concern that they
were going to tax the hospitals, because a
lot of places that they went to were
essentially seasonal towns.
You know, people went and visited them in
the summer, right, like the Hamptons.
And what do we see with the Hamptons?
We see that homes in the Hamptons have
skyrocketed even more, even areas surrounding the very
(17:32):
exclusive section, they had an overcrowding of schools,
right, and they had concerns about their facilities.
But it wasn't just the Hamptons, that happened
in all the places that they went, you
know, because they faced a tremendous amount of
pressure.
Yeah, and also the culture clash.
You have folks that are just coming to
New York, and now they're going into these
rural areas, and it's a whole thing.
(17:54):
And I was just curious, it's like, okay,
well, if we have less services available, maybe
having less people wasn't the worst thing, because
maybe it would put less of a strain
on the folks that had to do, you
know, the work, like the essential workers, so.
That's really interesting.
Here's the response that I have.
You could say, yes, essential workers had, that
(18:15):
may have lessened the burden, but I would
argue that these people who were particularly affluent
were not people who needed the subways to
be cleaned.
When you take a look at these areas,
a lot of people who could walk to
work, or they could take private transportation, so
it was a different game for them.
And a lot of them had access at
that point to telehealth, so they didn't need
(18:36):
to go to the ER, right?
So these were people who, you know, unless
it was a really critical situation, wouldn't have
to be going to the hospital, right?
You know, these people, you know, these are,
yeah, and so that's an interesting thing.
For example, when we take a look at
the education system, these were people, wherever they
were, could afford access to high-speed internet
(19:00):
and had technology at home for their children
to continue with their education.
Whereas, you know, people who made less money,
definitely that was a significant hardship for them.
It was a significant hardship because school provides
daycare, right?
You know, and then also being it, so
(19:22):
if you were a central worker, that was
particularly, you know, problematic.
And then also, you know, not having access
to technology, it was tremendous in terms of
the high speed, you know, the proper computers
to take it home, and also being familiar
and comfortable with how to use the technology.
It's not something that you, you know, all
(19:43):
of a sudden you're the teacher.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, it was, all of
a sudden they're just going to do online
learning, and I'm like, yeah, because they're so
used to doing this on top of everything
else that they, they're overburdened with in general.
Now they have to figure out how to
teach a class online.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and here was the interesting
thing that, that, about preppers.
(20:03):
A lot of preppers thought that, you know,
when a disaster would strike, that they would
have to, they were still prepared, you know,
but the thinking was, you know, I know
how to shelter in place, but the likelihood,
if something happens, we're going to have to
leave the city.
So there wasn't, and we won't have access
to, you know, electricity, you know, we won't
have to worry about the internet, there'll be
(20:24):
no internet.
So, so people really didn't think, okay, I
need to make sure that I have this
high tech, so in a bug in situation,
my child will be able to attend school.
So that was a big surprise, because people
were always thinking, you know, they weren't thinking
about this gradual sheltering in place thing.
They were thinking, you know, kind of all
or nothing, which is a big lesson for
(20:45):
preppers and for everybody.
Yeah, oh yeah, I even put in one
of my videos, there's no such thing as
a perfect prepper.
Nothing ever go exactly to plan, and there's
always weak spots, you know, there's always, I
shouldn't say a weak spot, but there's always
areas that someone is stronger than another, you
know, they might be great at this, but
not so great, it's, yeah, it just comes
with the, with being a prepper, you sometimes
(21:06):
have to like, you're focusing on a couple
of things, but you're always going to have
that weak spot, and you have to kind
of hope that whatever happens doesn't hit you
there, as opposed to what you're.
Right, right, yes, I agree with you, one
of the things that really worked out well
for some of the preppers that I interviewed,
they lost their job, and they were able
to rely on their go money to help
(21:27):
them, even before the subsidy started, you know,
so that was good, because you know, they
had their regular savings, and then they also
had go money, plus, you know, stores, so
they were able to rely on those, whereas
people who didn't prep had their savings, and
that was it, they didn't have their extra,
you know, money that they could rely on.
Right, as far as how people view preppers,
(21:51):
and I do love the show Doomsday's Preppers,
but I think that people saw that, and
just got the wrong idea that, you know,
folks are just prepping for like a nuclear
war, or these things that, you know, could
very well happen, but seemed improbable, and the
focus wasn't enough on just anything that could
happen, losing a job, having a blackout, you
know, you have a power outage that lasts
(22:12):
a week, you know, a blizzard, or some
sort of other weather events that keeps you
stuck in the house, and something as basic
as that, because I was in a position
where I had lost my job for a
minute, and I didn't have to go to
the store, I had everything, I had extra,
so to ride it through, and I had
(22:32):
a pipe burst, the guy was like, I
won't be able to come back for a
week, I'm like, okay, and he was like,
oh, you took that a lot better than
I thought you would.
Yeah, yeah.
I was, you know, prepared for that, so
I think that the focus for preppers has
always been like, oh, they're waiting for this
big event, and it's like, no, there are
(22:53):
small disasters that can impact you greatly, so
you need to prepare for things that are
closer to home, like that blackout, like that
blizzard, like that burst pipe, like losing that
job, and you really can't afford to go
to the store, if you have a stockpile,
then you worry a little bit less about
that kind of thing.
Right, right.
Annette, one of the preppers that I interviewed,
(23:14):
she is terrific, and she said, you know,
she said something that has always stuck with
me, you know, when I, you know, talked
about how I was going to be writing
a book, and she said, what do you
want people to know, what do you want
readers to know about preppers, and she said,
I want them to know that we're not
preparing for doomsday, we're preparing for tomorrow, and
that has always stuck with me, because it's
true, it's true, you know, I mean, where,
(23:36):
you know, I would have been scrambling, just
like everyone else, if I wouldn't have had,
you know, the, you know, the math and,
and other essentials, you know, it gave me
a moment to slow down and say, okay,
let me calm, you know, let me make
sure that my parents have everything, let me,
let me talk with my neighbors, let me,
you know, I, I had that, that security,
(23:57):
however temporary.
Right, and then also, I think we kind
of had, had a heads up a little
bit as soon as someone said, okay, this
looks like this is going to turn into
a thing, a lot of people wait until
it turns into a thing, whereas preppers are
like, even if it's not a thing, I'm
going to act like it's going to be,
and if it's not great, and if it
does, okay, I'm not quite out there.
I think one of the early banners that
(24:19):
I had on my website says, you never
know when the day before is the day
before.
Cool.
So, Linda, you brought up an important point.
One of the things, you know, at the
start of the pandemic, when, you know, people
were rushing to the store and, you know,
and, you know, buying up any and everything
they could, someone sent me a meeting, two
people fighting at, I think, a Costco in
New Jersey, and their cars were stuffed, you
(24:40):
know, crammed with all kinds of stuff.
You know, someone said, oh, look, Anna, it's
the preppers.
And I said, no, it's not.
They're whole.
They're whole.
You know, these individuals who have bought things,
and when they did, they thought carefully about
what they were purchasing.
They bought things on sale.
They're ready.
They're just now thinking about little things, you
know, trying to figure out, you know, what
(25:01):
else, you know, they might need to take
care of.
I said, those aren't them.
Well, the people that you saw fighting over
the toilet paper were not preppers at all.
And it became very clear who was and
who wasn't.
But yeah, I think that that's important for
folks to realize.
You just don't know when it's going to
happen, and you don't want to put yourself
in a situation like that where people are
(25:23):
fighting over stuff.
I mean, people will throw down on Black
Friday over a toy.
So, you have to keep in mind what
they'll do if there's a disaster and there's
no food or there's very little food, and
they're going to fight to feed their kids.
Now, do you really want to put yourself
in that position?
If you could just be a little more
prepared and do a little bit every day
or a little bit every week when you
(25:45):
can, so you don't have to put yourself
in that kind of position, especially as women.
I mean, if things get desperate, men are
not going to think anything about knocking you
down and taking what you have if it'll
feed their family.
Prepping is not just about having, it's also
about keeping yourself safe.
You don't have to put yourself in situations
like that.
And actually, I do have a question, speaking
of disasters, because, I mean, I had to
(26:05):
think about it.
When I read the book, I was like,
if I had the ability to leave, would
I have left?
And I still don't know if I would
have.
Now, obviously, you know, if there's an earthquake
or something like that where everything's devastated and
it's unlivable, that's one thing.
But is there any disaster other than the
city collapsing, like, totally collapsing like an earthquake
(26:27):
scenario that would make you leave New York?
We, with the pandemic, we did have the
ability to leave at the start, and we
didn't.
We waited several months, and then we went
and stayed with my father.
So in other words, for the initial first
wave, the real crisis, we stayed in the
city.
And I think it wasn't, I want to
(26:47):
say until sometime in 21 that we left.
And I could see, you know, my dad
was, you know, he lived alone, and he
was struggling a bit, and it was time.
And, you know, and so we, of course,
quarantined, and, you know, spent time with him.
But yeah, so, but it wasn't even like
a consideration, like with the pandemic.
(27:11):
It was, we're New Yorkers, we're here.
Yeah.
Well, you know, that's there.
It's like, I have friends and family here.
Where am I?
Yeah, I'm like, no, I'm here.
We're here.
There is a portion in the book where
I talk about when my cousin from Texas
called me, and we had a conversation.
And, you know, I told him that we
were staying in New York, and he asked
(27:32):
me, and this was before they had closed
everything, everybody was kind of racing for the
storm.
And he said, well, what we can do
is we can meet halfway, and I'll have,
you know, things and, you know, I'll have
stuff in my trunk that I think you're
going to need.
You know, you just take it to me
and you go back to New York.
And we all know he was talking, you
(27:52):
know, what he was talking about, you know,
we were talking about guns.
And, and I, you know, absolutely not, you
know, didn't want to, you know, didn't want
to go that route.
So I was definitely staying for the pandemic.
But with September 11, we did leave when
the city was shut down, I think, for
(28:12):
that night.
And I think the next day, maybe two
days, I don't exactly remember.
We did leave when we went to Philadelphia,
because our apartment had started to fill with
a very, like, funny, smoky, plastic-y, fumy
smell.
And the outside was like that.
(28:34):
And so we knew that there was no
point in us.
It was, you know, it was dangerous.
So we did leave.
We did leave.
That's understandable, because especially at that point, we
were, everyone was sensitive to everything.
If there was a fire, if there was,
you know, anything.
Yeah, it smelled dangerous.
It wasn't like, okay, this happened once, it
obviously could happen again.
We went back a few days later.
We didn't want to stay away when we
(28:56):
thought it was safe to go back to
the apartment.
So I guess to answer your question, I
guess it's when I have to leave, when
I don't have a choice.
You know, that was when we, you know,
that was when we left.
We didn't, you know, lose any of our
family or friends, but I feel for my
students.
Some of them, you know, lost their entire
(29:16):
family, you know.
So that was, you know, really challenging.
And seeing how important, and the college has
definitely made strides, all colleges have, but understanding
that college students during disasters look to the
school for support.
And I don't really think that that's something
that people had really ever thought about, I
(29:37):
think, which is another.
And I touch upon this at the end
of my book.
And one of the things that Queens College
did that I thought was really terrific was
that they started a food pantry, a mobile
food pantry to deliver groceries to students.
They also increased the number of online and
telephone counselors that they had because
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