Harnessing Connections: From Technology to Horsepower

Episode Transcript
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Fresh King Benjamin (00:13):
I'm just kind of always amazed at how easily frustrated
we get with Magical technology.
Like you're thousands of milesaway from me, Callie, right?
Like you're, I don't even, I've neverdone the math, but it's probably upwards
of 2000 miles away from where I am.
And from Utah, do you think?

Callie King (00:35):
Yeah.
From Utah, I'm probably, I'mgoing to go for 2, 400 miles.
So I'm in Oaxaca, Mexicoon the Pacific coast.
So 2,

400 miles away.
For most of human history, that would havetaken the conversation that we're about
to have would never have happened becauseI wouldn't even know that you're a real
thing and you would have no conception.
I would have been one of those wildwhite barbarians from the north that
you heard legends about you neveractually had a conversation with.

(01:04):
And so we're, it's amazing.
It's amazing technology that we have.
That we get to talk, kind oftalk instantly and we can get
really frustrated with it.
Like today, trying to get you logged in.
It took a couple of tries.
Like we had to kind of, we had to, weweren't really sure and maybe it was
going to happen and maybe it wasn't.
But you're here now and I'mexcited to have you here.
So welcome on the podcast.

Thank you.
I am really excited to be hereand also grateful for technology.
Kind of funny that we're going tobe talking about the apocalypse
as we're here with our, ourlittle tech fails connecting.
Right,

exactly.
Like we're, this is easily the mostcush apocalypse that we could imagine.
Cause we're like, I mean,I'm indoors right now.
It just snowed, but I have like.
Central heating.
So I'm not cold.
I'm wearing a t shirt.
So, let's, let's kindof jump into this then.
So, welcome everyone to today'sedition of Vibing the Apocalypse.
This is your host the Fresh King Benjamin.

(01:59):
I'm here with my good friend, Callie King.
And We're going to just talk aboutthe apocalypse a little bit today.
We'll see where it goes.
Callie, do you want to just maybetell us a little bit about you?
And you can take that however you want.
Like, why, why do you feel qualified,I guess, to come on to a show about
the apocalypse and talk about it?
What are your uniqueapocalyptic qualifications?

Oh, I, I love that question and I hadn't given it much
thought until this very moment,because I'll, I'll be honest.
I don't give the apocalypse muchthought, which makes me actually
really excited to talk to you today.
But what I think makes me qualified totalk about this is I I find that I live.

(02:43):
A little bit between worlds, meaningjust half an hour ago, I was back on
a dirt road in a rural Mexican field.
And there were farmers that had walkedseveral miles to go back there and
to work on their, their watermelonfields and their corn, feed their cows.
And I was back there riding my horse.

(03:04):
And then I come out of there.
So I, you know, ride out of thereGet on my motorcycle to come here to
my house, open my fancy laptop, andI'm talking to you 2, 400 miles away.
Yeah.
So I think, I think just the uniquelifestyle that I've been able to live
being in a lot of really rural places, andI work with horses, I'm a horse trainer.

(03:27):
And a writing instructor by profession.
And I teach that on the internet, whichis a bit of a dichotomy in and of itself.
Yeah.

Yeah.
And what I'm interested to, what, whatthat kind of sparked in me is I think,
I think that you kind of have thisreally interesting ability maybe to sort
of bridge the world of kind of rural,Sort of old human, like old human,
like humans have been riding horses forhundreds of thousands of years, like,

(03:58):
that's like, probably deep in our bones.
We're like, that's a, that's aninterest that whole world that
you described of like a rural, Youwalk for miles to get anywhere.
It's sort of like a, it'ssort of a slowed down world.
It's kind of like a, what you can walkon your feet or on someone else's feet.
And then you also can kind of step intothis really fast paced, very virtual,

(04:20):
very, and your ability to kind ofbridge both of those worlds, I think
is, is interesting for the apocalypsebecause I, I sort of think that we are
in a little bit of a transition of kindof going back to more of a world like
the world that you first described.
I think we're sort of, I think we kindof got to this heyday of technology.

(04:41):
And some things about that werereally cool and other things were
problematic, like the way that wekind of trashed the environment.
And, and so I think that for a lot ofpeople, it's becoming more and more
important to sort of slow down and finddifferent ways to sort of go back to that.
Older lifestyle.

Yes.
Yeah, I, I see that so much andI hear that so much in the riders
that I coach is so with horses.
Horses and humans have gone through thisunique history of, it was actually kind
of recent, I think that they don't knowfor sure, but they think it was around.
15, 000 years ago, maybe that we firststarted riding horses a little bit.

(05:29):
Little,

Fresh King Benjamin: little disclaimer guys. (05:29):
undefined
Remember I did not go topublic elementary school.
I've only known that the earth wasmore than 6, 000 years old for like.
About 10 years, so I'm still gettingused to the numbers, but so 15, 000
years ago, we, we looked at horses andwe were like, yeah, we could ride that.

Yeah.
Yeah.
How it started.
No one knows, but they firstthat, that date goes to when
they found horse head skulls.
They found horse skulls andthey had bit marks on the jaw.
So that was when we were using bits.
We might have been using, ridingbefore then, but we don't,

(06:10):
we don't have evidence of it.
But that's the first evidencethat people were riding, putting
bits in the horse's mouth.

Yeah, because arguably, like a bit, does a bit
need to be metal or, or are the, werethese bits made of something else?

That's a great question.

We have to kind of get into like, we're, we're working with
metal before we get evidence of that.
Cause it seems like we probablywould have had, I mean, I, I'm,
I'm not, I'm not super horsey.
I had, I actually, at some point weshould talk about this today because
I had a number of kind of scaryexperiences with horses as a small kid.
And so now I don't like them.

(06:49):
But I would imagine that we probablywere riding for a lot longer before
we started using things like bitsor saddles that we, that in more of
our, but what do you, what's yourtake as the, as the horse expert?

I, I suspect that as well, but.
Even more interestingly, before horseswere used for riding or for any kind of
transportation, they were used for meat.
So when we first domesticated horses,they, they were a cow, basically.
Like, they were used for meat and milk.
And there's places in theworld, so I went to Mongolia.

(07:29):
Two years ago.
And they, one of my favorite conversations

for a moment.
And just tell, tell the people why,cause you just didn't go to Mongolia.
You didn't just like,like you went to Mongolia.
Tell, tell the listenershow you went to Mongolia.

So it.
had been a dream of mine, a like,newspaper clipping pasted on the
wall, bucket list item, to goand ride in the Mongol Derby.
And the Mongol Derby is thelongest horse race in the world.
So it is, as the crow flies,it's a thousand kilometers.
I ended up doing 1, 270.
I went a little off track.
Yeah.

(08:07):
And You, you do this race in thestyle of, think of like Pony Express
because it actually follows theirold mail route system that was
set up in the era of Genghis Khanand preluded our Pony Express.
Our U.
S.
Pony Express was based on that.
So, you switch horses every 35to 40 kilometers, and you ride

(08:31):
all day long, and it's a race.
So it's whoever, whoever can keep up thatpace and play with lady luck and get their
fastest wins, and they have really goodregulations to take care of the horses.
You know, the horses are well takencare of and not overridden during
this event, but that's why I went.

Okay.
So, so you went to Mongolia.
That's by the way, guys, that's howCallie does things is when that's so
like, you went to Mongolia and obviouslyran the world's longest horse race.
And while you're in Mongolia, you learnedthat we, that you were saying that, cause
we started out by eating horses, which Ithink is hilarious that, cause that means

(09:11):
that at some point during our evolutionaryhistory, there was a conversation
where there was like a new hip.
Probably liberal caveman and likea super conservative caveman.
And the liberal caveman was like,dad, I just want to ride this horse.
Like it just, I just want to get on.
And you're like, we don't ride this horse.
We eat.

(09:31):
Horses are for eating.

Well, they, maybe this conversation happened first on the
steps of Mongolia and is still playingout today because one of the days
after the race, I had the opportunity.
To speak to, there were threeherders there, and that was the
name of what they called peoplethat had large herds of horses.
And I had a translator with me, soI had the opportunity, I was like,
can I go up, like translate, I wantto talk to these guys and learn more

(09:58):
about their horses, their lifestyle.
So the first thing I asked, I was,how many horses do you each have?
And one was like, I've got 100,I've got 120, I've got 275.
Wow, a lot of horses.
And then I said, well, what do you,what do you do with the horses?
Obviously you're not riding them all.
Do you milk them?
What's the use?

(10:18):
We eat them.
Okay, so, so then, next question,because my mind goes to, you
know, agriculture in the U.
S., for example, beef cattle,typically they will raise, you know,
they, they raise a a steer, andthen there's a certain age where
they're normally Butchering and yeah,yeah slaughtering the the steer.

(10:39):
So I thought did they dothe same thing with horses?
So I asked, when do you eat them?
When we feel like it.

So

good.
Essentially, I got out of a littlebit more of the conversation that
they, you know, they pick the onesthat they're drawn to, to ride.
Those become their riding horses.
When they're no longer usefulas a riding horse, they, They
slaughter them and they eat them.
They use the mares a lot for milk,but also will, will eat them and they
just, As they need them, they use them.

(11:13):
And you know, as a person, obviously Ilove horses, but at the same time, I,
I really respect that lifestyle becausethey're, they're honoring the horse.
The horse is a huge part of their life.
The horse has a hard life, but alsoa ton of freedom compared to the
horses that we have in the U S thatsoft life, very little freedom.

Yeah.
And it's interesting too, to me, becausethe, there's, there's something kind of
beautiful about the total consumption.
Cause it's, it's almost like, it'salmost like these little, these little
herds are sort of self contained.
So it's like, we're going to, like,we're going, there's, it seems
like there's very little waste.

(11:56):
Like in America, we have so, we,we, we, There's so much waste that's
put off of everything that we do.
And so I kind of love, there'ssomething almost, there's a way
that I can kind of see that.
It's sort of very beautiful thatthese horses are sort of, they get
their life, they're kind of ridden.
The ones that are likefun to ride get ridden.
The ones that They get, someof them get milked, right?

(12:18):
And then as they sort of outlive, theyget to a point where it's not really
easy for them to be of use in that way.
Then they sort of get consumed andput their, it's sort of, it all seems
like it's part of the same system,which I think is really kind of lovely.

Yes, it is.
It is.
And it's just as you said, there's,there's a lot less waste because
there's not room for waste.
You know, these families areliving out there and they, they
have what they need to survive.
They're definitely not living in excess.
And there, to me, there'sa beauty in that as well.

Yeah, I think that there's something about like humans, we
can, we can exist on far less than we.
Think that we need like, we can, wecan survive like our, our standard of
living, especially in the West is soabsurdly high and we don't need like,
you don't need all of the junk food.

(13:16):
You don't need all ofthe, you don't need cars.
You don't need air conditioning.
You don't need, you don'treally even need houses.
Although houses are nice.
There's so much, there's so much less thatyou can kind of have and, and actually
live a pretty fulfilling and maybe even.
Arguably, like, maybe even a morefulfilling life because you're less
sort of stuck in the trappings ofthe world that you have to kind

(13:41):
of Live and support in order tohave all of those things, right?
There is something kind of like, Ihave no idea what horse milk tastes
like, but I'll bet it's not reallyany different than like cow's milk.
Like you just get used to it.
And so there's something kind of lovelyabout the idea of having, I mean, I'm

(14:02):
just imagining this lifestyle now andit's like really getting to me because
you're basically just like on the steps.
With your little yurt and your hundredsof horses and you just kind of travel
around and eat the horses and ridethe horses and milk the horses.
And that's your life.
And that sounds pretty fucking cool.

Yeah.
Well, you mentioned, we started down thistrack of talking about horses because
you mentioned how you, you've noticed,and I've noticed as well, that a lot of
people are looking for a return to thiskind of more, you know, feet in the dirt
Working hands kind of lifestyle, and Ithink it's really interesting because

(14:44):
I, I had to go through this transitionmyself when I moved to Mexico a few years
ago, is my standard of living went down.
And it was a bit of a bumpy transitionperiod for me at first because I was
really drawn to a simpler way of living.
And I was really drawnto some of these things.

(15:07):
And yet to really live, there'sone thing to go and to have that
experience, you know, to like go andspend a month camping or whatever.
There's another thing to actually accept.
the hardships and the lower standardof living that comes with that.
Now my lowering my standardof living is small.
I mean, I'm, I'm talking about like,I've, I don't have hot water here.

(15:30):
So I learned that you justtake cold showers every day.
Which arguably is probably better for you.
I think so.
And, and it's, it's also, it's very

important.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But okay.
So, so, so cold showers, what aresome other kind of sort of incidental
ways that, that the standard ofliving got, got hit, but it's sort of
like the cost for that simpler that.
So, so, I remember when I was inUganda, I imagine it's probably
similar that a big part of us wasthe toilet only worked sometimes.

(16:01):
Yeah.
And on the days that it didn't work, therewas a, there was a pit in the back and
that's what you, that's what you used.

Yeah, that, that's, I could relate to that.
Now I'm still living definitely on thehigh, well, I would say on the moderately
high end of the scale of living here.
This is one of those interestingbeach communities that happens in
a lot of developing countries whereyou've got some of the like uber fancy
going on and then you've got kind ofthis, this big middle, and I'm kind

(16:33):
of in the low of the big middle.
And then you've got the low end ofthe locals that are, and this is
where I, where I find unfortunateabout just the development of things.
Like they haven't been benefitedby the development that's come in.
So, and the resources that were soeasy to them are no longer there.
So they've kind of fallen into,their standard of living has

(16:56):
gone down because they've got towork so much harder to maintain.
What they had before easily.
Oh, interesting.

Yeah,

what an interesting,

that's such a complex system.
Yes,

it is.
That's so interesting.
It is.
And a specific example of that is,you know, before, where they could
just walk down the street and pickmangoes from a tree and go fishing and
have their food and not have to work.
Now those kind of resources are muchharder to find because there's so many
more people here and not just peoplemoving in just more people in general

(17:32):
that those resources are harder to find.
So now they're having to go and maybework all day at a hotel or work all day.
Picking the, the watermelons backin the field because the, the easy
food, the easy resources isn't there.
So yeah, it's such aninteresting, interesting system.

It's a bummer that we do that as humans.
Cause that seems like a pretty, prettycommon pattern of development where.
Where sort of, and because it happenedin the United States, I think it
sort of happened everywhere wherewe, we, there were sort of these pre
like pre capitalist, maybe pre like,more developed ecosystems of that

(18:13):
were really rich in food and thatwere pretty easy to like, it's, it's,
there's, there's gives and takes, right?
Like on the one hand, you didn't have,you know, You didn't have modern medicine.
So if you broke your leg, you were fucked.
Like, that's it.
You're done.
Bye bye, buddy.
But you can also just walk downwherever, like walk down through the

(18:34):
mango grove and pick some mangoes andget some fish and then you're done.
And that's such a, and then thatit's interesting to, I've never quite
heard the, the description of like,as soon as this development comes in,
it, it sort of creates this, this.
Those resources start toget exploited in other ways.
And so you get sort of some of thebenefits of this modern culture, but

(18:57):
you also lose some of the simplicity.
So you, we kind of got onto thatcause you were saying that horses
are maybe sort of a bridge.
To for people to kind of comeback into that simple into
sort of that simple living.

I think they I think they can be because horses went
from Okay, we we were eating them.
They were our food and then we wereriding them for the sake of Transportation
or at least i'm assuming that it wastransportation in the beginning Maybe
there was some sport and enjoymentto it, but i'm going to assume it was
mostly transportation warfare And thenit transitioned really only recently into

(19:32):
being predominantly about sport, you know,so there's show jumping, there's racing,
there's all of the different horse sports.
And it's been even more recent thatnow it's transitioned that sport is
no longer the biggest part of theequine industry, but pleasure is.
So people have horses and are ridinghorses simply because they like horses

(19:53):
and they like riding horses and theywant the connection with the horse.
So the focus has now come,come back around to what, how
does the horse feel about this?
How do we connect to the horse?
How do we understand the horse?
Which is, which is what I love.
That's, that's what I teach, but it,It's really interesting to see it

(20:13):
come back around where we're actually,we're still, as humans, we're still
using the horse for our own value,really, if you look at it honestly.
We're still using the horse, butnow we're using the horse of how
can the horse make me feel goodand, in some cases, be my therapist.
Where before, we were using the horsebecause he's fast and he has a strong

(20:35):
body and he can pull this cart.

Right.
And before that we were using himbecause he tasted really good.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's kind of a, that's a, I thinkthat that's probably a win for the horses.
Like if, if the horses, if I werea horse, I would way rather be
someone's like therapy buddy.

(20:59):
And we go on fun rides and like, wehave a connection and we go on cool
adventures, then somebody's burger.
Well, it's kind ofinteresting to see that.
No,

go ahead.
Yeah.
I, I got it.
I got to jump in on this one.
So I don't have my actual stats onthis, but this is an interesting and
interesting little rabbit hole about.
Evolution of Species.
Because back, back in the day, sopre domestication of the horse,
supposedly zebras We're same number oreven potentially outnumbered horses.

(21:35):
So zebras, different species.
They're both in the equine family,but they're a different species
and they're a different species.
They have different behaviors.

Can I interject there with just a quick question?
Yes.
Where, where do horses, sozebras come out of Africa.
Do horses also come out of Africa?
Do you know where the, where thehorse initially involves evolves?

So it.
They, they actually believe thatthey initially evolved in North
America, and that would be including,that's like zebra ancestors as well.
So this is, gets into a big thingwhen people fight about wild
slash feral horses in the U.
S.
because they initiallyevolved in North America.

(22:16):
They went extinct.
Equines in general.
Zebras also fall under equines.
They weren't

extinct, but did some of them, some of them
probably snuck across over into

Asia.
Exactly.
They snuck into Asia.
Mongolia.
And then they kind of come over into

Africa.
Okay, then there's equalnumber of zebras and horses.
Okay, I'm, I'm, I just wantedthat picture in my head.
Yes.
Okay, go.
So, equal number of zebras, horses.

So then, a big difference in their behavior is zebras are territorial.
Which makes them a lot more aggressivebecause they will have a territory
and they will protect that territory.
Horses are not territorial.
If you're trying to trade one

through pressure.
They look so cute.
Zebras do.
They look like, but they'rejust like wicked mean.
They're like, no, do not mess with me.
Yeah.

Horses can be dominated through force, which has
made them an easily domesticated,easily trainable species.
To humans, because they can be dominatedby force, they're a less aggressive
species, they're not they're notprotective of spaces, all of that.
Zebras, much more aggressive, muchharder to train, and if you watch their

(23:31):
numbers, horse, the, the populationof horses exploded with Humans.

Zebras.
Cows.
That makes me think of chicken, like allof these animals that grass, domesticated
grass is one where, and I've evenheard the argument that in some ways
we think, Oh, we domesticated chickens.
all of these things.
But in other ways, it's sort of like,we're all part of this same system.

(23:58):
And, and it seems that becominguseful to Homo sapiens is a
pretty banger evolution move.

Yes.
And that's where, you know, we, wesay we're using horses and we are,
it's not to downplay any maltreatmentor abuse that happens to horses.
But also when you really zoomout and you look at it from a
species level, who's using who?
Right,

right.
And I love that.
I actually really like that view becauseif you can sort of, if you can sort of
let go of maybe some of the, the yuckierconnotations of the word use, right?
It's actually pretty cool.
To be of use, right?
Like as humans, even likewe, we want to be useful.

(24:44):
We want to have interestingand fun things to do.
And I kind of love the idea thatI'm, I'm sort of tickled by the idea
that in our natural, as sort of ournatural state as human beings, that we
aren't really in conflict with nature.
That we're actually in this reallybeautiful symbiosis with nature.

(25:05):
And I like, I think, I sort ofimagined that as like Gaia, right?
So Gaia to me is like the, all thesum total of the natural world.
And I like to think that Gaiathinks that we're really cute and
really clever and likes us, right?
And I, I like also the idea that as a,as species, we've also really helped each
other because I, I, I mean, I haven'tstudied this, but I would imagine that.

(25:31):
Humans mastering the horse.
Was a pretty important step inhuman civilization because that
was really one of the, I mean, westill use that term today, right?
Horsepower, right?
So that's, that's really maybe one of thefirst times that humans were able to sort
of access more power than we can generate.

(25:55):
Right.
And what about maybe the definingcharacteristics of humans is that
we are really good at findingways to manipulate and and use
power that's not generated by us.
And so anyway, that's kind of interestingto think that that are that that it's
not just that we've been using this whereit's that there's maybe there's sort

(26:17):
of this, this symbiotic relationshipthat's really been good for both.

Yes, and there's, you are so right in the horse being part of many
turning points in human civilization.
One example of this is, so it was also inMongolia under the reign of Genghis Khan.
So in that, that era wherethe Mongols were conquering.
That part of the world.

(26:45):
Just kick an ass.
Yeah.
Part of their success isthey invented the stirrup.
So before they were riding horses,but they were riding without stirrups,
meaning they're just sitting on theirback and hanging on with their legs.
With the invention of the stirrup, theycould now stand up and they could, they
were amazing archers, so they could shoottheir bows and arrows in all directions.

(27:06):
They could see in all directions.
They could ride If anyone's everridden a horse without stirrups,
you can't ride that long.
You get tired.
The horse gets tired.
Their backs take a beating.
Where once you've got stirrups,you can ride so much longer.
And that was a huge factorin their military success.
And their military, what theydid absolutely changed the world.
And shaped the

whole, yeah, changed the entire world.
That's fascinating.
And I love, I love the, when Iimagine the stirrup, what I, that
tool seems really clever to mebecause it's sort of what it does.
Is I, I never considered that becauseI've ridden a horse with that, with
a stirrup and without a stirrup.
And in fact, the earlier, when I was ayoung kid and I would ride a horse this

(27:48):
week, we couldn't reach the stirrups.
And so I would like fall off all the time.
And I, so I hated it because I waslike, look, you're just putting me
on top of this horse and I have,I'm bouncing all over the place
and I have nothing to keep myself.
So the first time I rode with stirrups,I was probably, that actually fit me.
I was probably.
It was probably like 13 or 14.

(28:09):
And I remember when I had those stirrups,I was like, Oh, this is a different game.
Yeah, this is a totally different game.
And what's interesting is that, butI never, I never thought of it from
the horse's perspective, like itnever occurred to me that, A rider
who's just like bouncing on your back.
That's just like on yourback the whole time.

(28:30):
That that would be a lot lesseasy to, to be, be bear as a, as a
ride than someone who's got stirs.
And so then you can, 'causewhat stirs allow you to do is to
kind of engage with the horse.
Right?
You can sort of like get into flowand sort of move with the horse.
Yes.
Rather than just like, yeah.
And, yeah, so what a brilliantand clever tool that really is,

(28:54):
it's, it's not about domination.
It's about.
Synchronization.
It's about helping you and thehorse kind of get into sync.
And obviously like you're the rider,you're the, we're the, you're the
one that's in charge, but there issomething really beautiful about
that in charge relationship thatseems to be good for both species.

Yeah.
So I'm curious because you obviously rodeand it sounds like you had a lot of falls.
Was it the falls or was itsomething else that just, you know,
you never caught the horse bug?

I, I think that what it really was is that the, I, I don't
think that it was a very, it was very safeto ride horses in, in my, in my childhood.
So we had a number of horses.
We had a ton of kids.
None of the horses were,were really well trained.
And so there were sort of like, andthen none of the, like, I just remember,

(29:47):
I remember like, the way that the,the older adults around me, right.
So we're kind of on this little ranchoutside of, we're, we're separated.
They're like uncles and, and sort ofolder adults who are kind of there.
And I'm seeing theminteract with the horses.
And there's a lot of, there'sa lot of like, Harsh anger.
There's a lot of like, I remember Ihave this one memory of, of one uncle,

(30:09):
like kind of getting on the horse andsort of like beating the shit out of it.
Like, like really being really aggressive.
Cause the horse had like bucked him off.
And so he just like came out andlike, like was really, really rough.
And so the whole energy of thatfelt, it didn't feel very safe.
I think as a kid.
And so when I would get put up on, on,on these horses, I would, in fact, I

(30:31):
think the first time that it happened.
is that we were riding two horses.
I was riding one horseand I was really young.
I was probably three or four.
And then my brother my brother,who's my same age as, as I am.
And then another brother who's a littlebit older or riding another horse.
And I'm on another horse with my dad,other horse bucks, the two of them off.

(30:53):
So they get bucked off.
They fall.
And then my dad gets off the horse,leaves me on the horse and like goes
and like, yeah, and so I'm like.
On this horse, like freakingout, like, Oh, what, what?
And and so I think that wasreally my first, first experience.
And so, because of that, it felt difficultto relax when I was with the horse.

(31:18):
And so I think they wouldprobably pick up on my.
sort of tension and then itwould just wouldn't go well.
So I would write, I wrote a, likeI, when I was like eight, I wrote
a pony and got kind of tense and itwasn't really well trained either.
And so I got kind of tense and thenit like bucked me into a fence.
And so like, that was just kind ofthe, that I didn't really have a lot
of great experiences with, with horses.

(31:40):
So it never, yeah, I think itnever really like, it never really
like caught me where I was like,Ooh, I want to, I want to do this.
It was more like, Oh, this feelsunsafe and I want to stay away.

Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, I get it.
It's, it's funny how it, those, especiallywhen we're kids, those first experiences
can just color something for, for life.

Yeah, and I think that, I think that if the, if the
situations maybe would have been handleda little bit differently by, by I think
most, cause I think that I probably couldhave bounced back from like, cause I,
the, the, even with the first one, right?
Like I didn't actually fall off a horse.
I was on the horse that didn't buck.
And I got to like, and I,and the horse was fine.

(32:22):
Like I kept it still like nothingbad, nothing bad happened.
I think it was just that heightenedstate of like, Oh, I'm not okay.
I'm not okay.
I'm not okay.
Nothing's And then that, thatfeeling wasn't like, my dad didn't
come back and be like, Hey, like,I'm sure that you're also scared.
Like, let's kind of, let'skind of resolve that.
And so it just sort of like hung on tome, but I did have a, I did remember,

(32:43):
I do remember when I was probably,I was probably 14 or 15 and I got
a, I got a stirrup, like I got somehorses with, with some stirrups that
fit me and, I remember there was thismoment where we were like out chasing.
So we used horses primarilyfor herding cows, right?
So we had a bunch of cows onlike a big spread of land and

(33:04):
we'd go and like round them up.
So I was doing that.
And the whole time I was writing,I would like I had like the
reins and then I had the, the.
Saddle horn and I was just likeholding onto that saddle horn
and the reins and I was bouncing crazy.
I was like, Oh, right.
And so I'm doing that and then westart to kind of, we start to kind

(33:29):
of, there was a couple of the, Ithink a couple of the other horses
come by and we start to kind of gap.
We sort of start to kind of trot.
And so then it's even worse.
Right.
I'm like, Oh, and then.
I sort of get bounced hard and I kind oflike really land in my seat and I sort
of feel my feet in the stirrups and I'mlike, and I sort of get that bounce and
I'm like, Oh, I can use these stirrupsand I can kind of like, I can kind of

(33:54):
bounce with the horse and so then Istart trying to get into that and then
the horse kind of picks up and it breaksinto a gallop and I let go of the, yeah.
I let go of the horn and I'mlike galloping with this horse.
And I feel, I felt like really free.
It was like, it was, it wasa kind of a magical moment.
Cause it would, it had been like.
A lot of like pretty negative experienceswith horses and then sort of like slowly

(34:18):
getting into sync with this animal.
And then when he would open up, likea horse running and you're on top
is a pretty ecstatic experience.
Like it feels pretty fucking great.

Yes.
Yeah.
And it doesn't matter how manytimes on how many different horses.
It's still just as fun every single time.
Ah,

yeah.
So, yeah.
So I could imagine, I could actuallyimagine kind of getting, getting
into that a little bit more becausethere's, there's something about that.
Cause I like, I like thingsthat are fast, that, that are.
That require a certain amount oflike control, like I'm imagining,
like my, my favorite thing, one ofmy favorite things to do is to ride

(35:02):
my one wheel, which is like a boardwith a big giant tire in the middle.
And you can take that thing anywhere.
Like you can take it over,like up in the trails.
Like you can take it literally anywhere.
And it's high, it's like high speed,high like consequences matter.
Like you gotta, you gottabe paying attention.
And I feel the same way aboutsnowboarding too, where I like, I

(35:24):
like the being at speed and having tomake decisions and choices at speed is
pretty fucking cool as a human, I think.

Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's that flow state.
Where you, there's not, there's notenough time to, you, the brain just
automatically lets go of all of theother tracks that are running in the
background because you gotta just dowhat's, what you're doing in the moment.
Yeah, I have to

Fresh King Benjamin: be entirely right here. (35:53):
undefined
Yes.
And being able to sort of dropback into that state it, it almost
is always preceded by like afeeling of like out of control.
Where like, oh my god, oh my god, oh mygod, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god.
And then you sort of have to drop.
You're like, oh, actually, yeah.
So now I'm just.

(36:13):
That seems to be a pretty importanta pretty important apocalypse skill
too, like getting, being able toget into, into that flow state.
And I'm even just imagining now fromthis conversation that, that my, I think
that that my life would probably be alot more fun if I were more intentional
about getting myself in that place.

(36:34):
More regularly where I'm kind of likein that zone of like, I'm just buzzing.
I'm just buzzing.
And we're just, we're just doing it.
And cause that feels really human.

Yeah.
You know, I, what you just said there,I think you have just identified
what I would consider be the twomost important apocalypse skills.
The first one we covered in thebeginning, which is being willing to
let the standard of living go down.
And go back to simpler wayof life, embracing that.

(37:11):
The second one, I think you justhit it, is being in those kinds
of, not even literal high speed,but like high risk situations,
and not letting panic take over.
Because in that moment where you justdescribed, where you're like, oh shit,
oh shit, oh shit, what's gonna happen?
They're the brain can either go intopanic mode and then it the wheels fly off.

(37:35):
Yeah or you drop into Responding you dropinto flow state and of course, that's
easier when it's an activity that you'vegot the skill for But you can always
respond to something rather than panic.
So it's, yeah.
And I think,

I love that, that, that frame is really helpful
of like, when you sort of reachthat moment of like, it's make or
break, like it's make or break.
You're either going to, it'seither going to work or it's not.
And being able to sort of recognize, hangon, I've got, do not disturb me phone.
Okay.

(38:13):
Being able to kind of recognize that I caneither panic or I can, or I can respond.
I think that's a really powerful frame.
Cause it's either, ah, Or I'm goingto just, it's almost like that all
turns off and I'm sliding back andI'm just seeing what's right here.
And as it comes up, I almostdon't even need to think about it.

(38:34):
Like I get into this pretty, pretty wellwhen I'm on my one wheel, because in order
to do the one wheel, well, you've gotto be, you've got to be fairly balanced.
You've got to kind of be back, sort oflike back in your hips and in your legs.
You've got to be really loosebecause you don't actually know.
What is coming?
I can see, but if I'm just relyingon what I see, I'm not, I'm going to

(38:58):
miss some stuff because maybe, maybethe ground moves in a certain way.
Maybe there's a rock, maybethere's a gust of wind, right?
There could be anything.
And if I'm loose and reactive, then whenthat happens, I'll kind of like teeter on
the edge of losing control for a while.
Like maybe I'll bounce ona, on a big, on a big rock.
And then I've kind of got to move, right?
I'll be kind of like out ofcontrol as I'm sort of, but I'm.

(39:20):
It's like a controlled outof control because I'm loose
and I'm just going to vibe.
And then, and then I'm coming backinto it and then I've got it again.
Yeah.
And I can't do that if I, if I hitthat and I'm, and I allow, and I panic,
then it's like, then I'm also tight.
I'm like, Oh, I can't hit anything.
I can't hit anything.
If I hit anything, I'm going to go in.
I'm going to go everywhere.

(39:40):
And then you, and then you do hitsomething and then you do go everywhere.
Yes.

Yes.

Hmm.
I love that.
Yeah.
That is that's a pretty cool, thatmakes me want to go out and ride.
Cause I think that, I think thatcause I've heard people talk
about having like a flow practice.
Like, I did this course, I can'tremember the guy's name, but he
claimed to be the master of flow.
Like that was his, he was like,I'm the flow captain or something.

(40:07):
It was like a mind Valley course.
He was like, I'm the flow.
He didn't say flow captain, buthe was like, I'm the, an expert.
I don't know how you become an expert.
I'm not an expert in flow, but he wasand said, and he said that he would, his
flow practice was skiing, where he would,he, every, and it was religious for him.
Every winter, he'd go to ParkCity and he'd ski for months.

(40:28):
And the reason for that is that ittrained him to get into that flow state.
So he was used to kind of being there.
It was a, it was a, A resourcethat he had and then he could
translate that into other areas.
And so I'm just kind of realizingthat I think that is that's another
really valuable, like, not only theability to get into flow state as

(40:48):
and being that responsive state as anapocalypse skill, but actively practicing
something that puts you in that zoneso that you've got a big buffer.
You've got a lot of bandwidthin that in that area.
Because things are, causeit's not just immediate.
It's not just tangible, physicalthings that we have to respond to.
The whole world is crazy right now.

(41:11):
Like we, like it, if there's anythingthat the last three years have taught us,
it's that literally anything can happen.
Like there are aliens now.
That's how that's how insane theworld got over the last three years.
And so we are never going to be able topredict it, but we can respond to it.
And I think that that response is sortof the essence of kind of the, the more

(41:36):
calamitous times of something breakingdown like this before we can start.
Because I think eventually weget to a point where the world.
Settles down enough that we canstart to be a little more proactive.
We can start to be a little more likebuilding, but right now it does kind of
feel like it's just a little bit like,just write it, like, just write it.
And we'll, we'll figureit out as we go along.

Yeah.
Yeah.
I love that on.
training the flow state.
And I think that is so true.
And when we do activities that have anamount of real physical risk to them,
whether it's riding horses, whetherit's doing the one wheel, whether it's
doing the skiing, it for the learningprocess of doing that That physically

(42:19):
risky thing, it forces that processof going into something where you
feel, you feel activated, you feelscared, you feel the oh shit, and
then you have to learn to respond.
And we can get, we can get stuck inthat, that fear, but if we stay with
that activity and we keep doing it, Thelearning process is going to kick us out

(42:40):
of that, that you start just learningto, to get into that flow, and then,
absolutely, we can take that into the,the areas of life that don't necessarily
have the physical risk, but have theemotional risk, or have the, maybe
the physical risk isn't right there infront of us, it's happening somewhere
else, but we can respond to it better.

(43:03):
Because of that skill.

And what's so cool about that is that you get to
practice doing, you're like, you getthe practice that you get to do to
build that muscle is doing cool shit.
Like, you get to go out andride a horse in Mongolia.
You get to like ride a motor, like there'sa lot of, you get to do kind of these,

(43:26):
these higher, higher risk physical thingsthat are actually pretty fun to do.
The other, I wanted to kind oftake the conversation cause one of
the things that you said kind of,made me interested in a question.
Cause you, did you grow up, I'm,I'm, did you grow up on the farm
that, that we've talked about?
Is that like, is that,were you a rural child?

Yes, I was.
So I grew up on, on the farm.
My grandparents were, Amish Dairy Farmers.
Now by the time that I was growing upthey didn't have an active dairy anymore
but they still lived there on the farm.
And my father was a carpenter, sohe was mostly using the farm for his

(44:06):
furniture and carpentry business.
So I grew up on a farm but it wasno longer an active dairy farm.
But all of the roots of that area andthe history of my family was farmers.
All the

trappings were still kind of there.
Did it feel like that, that yourchildhood, that there was more
opportunity for physical riskas a, because of where you grew

up?
Oh, so much.
So much.
I mean, I, I spent my day and Iwas, I was homeschooled off and on.
So I wasn't home homeschooled thewhole time, but I was homeschooled
off and on because we also traveled alot to Colorado and my, my, my parents
had a a ranch or spent time on aranch there that was also very rural.

(44:47):
And I, I was an only child.
I wasn't the same age like all of mycousins were, you know, different ages.
So basically I, I always joke I grewup with goats because I kind of did.
I had it.
I spent a lot of time with thegoats and the dogs and then
eventually the horses too.

There are worse people to grow up with.

Hey, they were, they were fantastic childhood friends.
Fantastic.
But yeah, I, I did a lot of just gettingmyself into trouble and then finding
how to get myself out of trouble, youknow, like climbing into weird things
and then realizing I didn't know howto get down and just had to figure out
cause there was no one around to help.

(45:30):
And I've, I'm really grateful forthat, that experience of being able to.
Grow up, not just connected to theland, but also grow up with that,
like risk, physical risk, doingthings was just a normal part of life.

Yeah.
I, I feel that way too, kind of aboutmy childhood where there are definitely
aspects of how I grew up that I would.
I would like to have, like, if Icould have passed, I would have
passed on those, but there arealso kind of parts of growing up
that I feel really grateful for.
And one of them is that like youdescribed, there was, there were, there

(46:06):
was an abundant opportunity for megrowing up on, on a rural ranch to do
things that were, that were unsafe, butthey were sort of like safely unsafe.
Like they, because, because I was like,I think one of the things about humans is
that we don't want to actually get hurt.

(46:27):
And so, so if you just kind of like, asa kid, I almost never did anything that
was so risky that I got really hurt.
Cause my sort of natural, my naturalkind of inclination to not be hurt
would sort of protect me from that.
I would, I would, I would scale back.
Right.
And a couple of times it didn't workout and I did get seriously hurt, but

(46:49):
even then that was like, Oh great.
Now I know where the edge of that is.
And, and so like, I, I feel as an adult,Kind of some of the benefit of that,
of that risky childhood, because I feellike as an adult, I'm less brittle.
I'm kind of a little more like,I'm, I'm, I'm comfortable with pain.

(47:11):
I'm comfortable with like all ofthese, like, cause I've been kind
of playing, like I was climbing onlike my favorite thing to do is we
had these huge sandstone boulders onour property and they were like 15
feet high, some of them 10 feet high.
And they were kind of placed.
I don't even know how they endedup this way, but they were kind
of like close to each other.
And so we could climb up on theseboulders and then we could jump

(47:33):
from one boulder to another boulder.
It was like jumping acrossthe roof of the house.
And, and that was pretty risky, right?
Like if you fall, if you mess thatup, there are some consequences.
Yeah.
But you don't mess it up, right?
Like you kind of learn to, like,I remember, I remember once there
was this one particular jump.
Yeah.
It's probably 10 feet up, 10 feet high.

(47:54):
And it really wasn't that far.
It was like maybe three, three anda half feet of open air between
this one rock and this other rock,and maybe 10 or 12 feet down.
And all the other kids, Iwas about two years younger.
So they're all jumpingacross and no problem.
I'm like this little kid.
And for hours, I'd like stand on theedge and I'd look over at the other side
and I'd just be like, and then I'd likeback up and then I'd kind of like run

(48:21):
to the edge and stop and be like, Oh no.
And I did that a whole bunch,like for days probably.
And then eventually I just did it.
And, and what I learned in that moment,it was kind of like, it's kind of
like that same moment of like, whereyou kind of like, you go all the way.
Right.
So, so what, what I did is I'm like,look, I'm just going to go for it.

(48:44):
I'm just going to do it.
And as soon as I did it, I landed like.
I was like, I was like twofeet on the other edge.
Like I had plenty of space, right?
But that was a risk.
That was risky, right?
I was 10 feet in the air as likea, like a six year old trying
to jump across a rock face.
But what that did for my confidence,what that did for my, sense that I could

(49:05):
actually exert power in the world and kindof do the things that I wanted to do, you
know, like that was a, it was a prettycool, it was a pretty cool experience.
And, and I wouldn't have been ableto do that if I hadn't been living
a little bit of a dangerous life.

. Callie King (49:23):
Yeah, totally.
My, I have a friend that is lives aactive risky life, you know, surfs,
skateboards, all that kind of stuff.
And he, he always says, if you haven'tfallen, you haven't found your limit yet.
So I, right now, the thing inmy life that is like pushing my

(49:44):
limits the most is swimming in,in bigger water and bigger surf.
I'm learning to surf as well, but partof that learning process is I just
need to learn how to, how to pass wavesbetter, how to get through the waves.
So this started with it two years ago.
I decided to do the lifeguardtraining here because I figured what

(50:04):
a better way to improve my swimmingthan surrounded by lifeguards.
Hopefully they're notgoing to let me drown.
So I made it, I made it through twoyears ago, which was pretty impressive.
I was a poor swimmer, to the pointwhere I wasn't even comfortable.
Putting my head underand like truly swimming.
I would just kind of doggy paddle,but I made it through last year.

(50:25):
This year, it just endedabout five days ago.
Six days ago, I had to be rescuedduring lifeguard training.

Oh no.

So that's the edge.
There it is.
That's the edge.
Exactly.
I came out of the waterand I'm not going to lie.
I, I went for a run down to the beachand I was like super embarrassed.
And then I just switched it in my mind.
I'm like, That's the waterequivalent of falling down.
I just found my edge.
Yeah.

I think, I think that is maybe like another, like, maybe,
I don't know if this is our third orfourth, I haven't been writing down,
but another great apocalypse skill isrecognizing that failure, falling, like
any of those things that we don't like.
It's just reframing that as, Oh, that'sthe edge because you really can't like,
I, I, I learned how to one wheel, right?

(51:13):
I'd never skateboarded.
I'd never done anything like that.
And as a 30 year old man, I waslike, I'm going to one wheel and,
and I fell off a whole bunch.
Like I fell off real early on andlike jacked up my shoulder and like, I
couldn't use my shoulder for like a weekand I was like, Oh God, I hate myself.

(51:33):
Why am I doing this?
I'm stupid.
And then I was like, Oh, actually, no,that I've never fallen like that again.
I've still fallen.
But what I've found is thatwhen I fall, I fall better.
I've actually learned that experienceof really getting myself jacked.
What it taught me was if you'regoing to fall, Keep your arms

in, tuck and

roll, and then you're, and you're going to be good.
And that is, is valuable.
Cause I'm probably goingto fall again, right?
I'm probably going to continue to bein spaces that push and challenge me,
that sort of push me over the edge.
And now I kind of know howto do that safely in a way
that, that is like contained.

(52:18):
And the way that I know that Ican bounce back from because I
just, that was just the edge.
I just need to, and now I knowwhere it is and you almost never
need to find the edge twice.

Yeah.
You know, talk aboutimportant life lessons.
People usually give things about,you know, enjoy the present
moment or treasure this or that.
I think one of the most importantlife lessons is how to fall down.
You just said it.
Keep your, tuck and roll, keep yourarms in, don't stick your hand out
unless you're going to hit your head.

Tuck it in, keep it loose.
Like it's, it's like everything, like keepit loose, keep it, keep it soft, and then
kind of, kind of roll and you can fall.
I've fallen now in some gnarly terrain.
I fell on a, on a , on an obstaclecourse at Burning Man on my one wheel
while ha, while I had a beer in my hand.

(53:08):
. Callie King: That's a great combination.
Great combination.
Like definitely some good ideas.
We're going down at that moment.
And, and I felt fine.
Like I, I landed, rolled.
I was fine.
Right.
The we're, we're so much more durableas, as humans than we really think
that we are, we can take so much morepunishment, so much more pain, like so

(53:29):
many more than we think, because we'reso, we're actually so, so, so sturdy.
And it's just this thing, right?
The thing in between our ears, thatthing tells us, Oh, we're going down.
You're weak.
Oh, you're soft.
Oh, don't be careful.
That's going to hurt.
Ah, wow.
Wow.
But that thing will dothat for anything, right?
Any amount of physical discomfort isthe brain has basically one lever, which

(53:51):
is you're going to die, you're going todie, you're going to die, you're going to
die, and it thinks you're going to die.
If you're in a cold shower.
Or it thinks you're going to die ifyou're getting chased by a tiger.
Those two things areequivalent for the human brain.
And so really giving us, givingus ourselves time to kind of get
in that space and recognizing thatI can feel like I'm going to die

(54:13):
and I'm actually not going to die.
That's actually my body gettingready to do something really cool.
Yeah.
Or die.
Because eventually we're all going to.

Happens to all of us.
Might as well go out with a bang.
Might

as well go out doing something really quick.

That's it.
I

have loved this conversation so much.
We are about at time.
So I want to just askyou two final things.
So one is just, is there anything thatyou feel like is unsaid that you want
to, you want to say about anythingthat we've talked about, about the
apocalypse in general, about life.
And then the second thing isjust, if people want to connect
with you, how can they find you?

Great questions.
You know, I'm gonna I'mgonna share this one.
This little, like, story, was in my head.
I'm going back now to when we weretalking about the culture here where
I live, in the coast down of Mexico.
And, I think this is just anotherlittle story that so encapsulates

(55:18):
how we as humans sometimes havetrouble relating to each other.
And it might even be true forlisteners, you know, depending on
where this little clip lands in, inyour recording, might even be true
for listeners who were hearing us talkabout all the physical risk stuff and
was like, that does not sound like fun.
So I, I was, in line at the immigrationoffice to do something with my visa.

(55:43):
It's always an adventure.
And waiting in line there, I meta man who was, he was Mexican.
He was a lawyer.
He was also in line to do somethingat the immigration office.
And we ended up chatting.
And he just told me a little story that,perfectly summed up the culture here.
He said, my father was a fisherman andhe would go out and he would go fishing

(56:06):
every morning and he would catch twoor three fish, which was enough that
my family needed to eat for the day.
And he would come back in andthen he would just hang out and
sleep under the palm tree or dowhatever for the rest of the day.
Get his, his nets ready forfishing the next morning.
And he said, I grew up withhaving more influence from the

(56:29):
modern world that was coming here.
And I started to see my father as lazy.
So I asked him, why don't you,there's so many fish out there.
Why don't you just stay out anothertwo or three hours, catch more
fish and we'll sell these fish.
And my father said, well, thatwould be greedy because we
only need two or three fish.
So to his father, Going out and takingmore than only he needed was greed,

(56:57):
and to this man growing up, not takingadvantage of what was available in the
time it was available was laziness.
I loved that story.

Fresh King Benjamin: That is so fascinating. (57:10):
undefined
And not even that one is right orone is wrong, that that, that those
are two perspectives on the world.
And, and we kind of need both, like we,we kind of need both of those energies
in our culture, because especiallynow, when I think about, when I just

(57:33):
think about all of the, the ways thatwe've overfished earth, like there's
a, there's a deep wisdom in that,in his father's adage of like, look,
I'm only going to take what I need.
That, oh man, I love that.
Thanks for sharing that.
That's cool.
That's a cool thing to end on.

(57:54):
Where, how can people connect with you?

So probably one of the most fun ways to connect with
me is also through my podcast.
So I do a podcast with one ofmy best friends, Andrea Wadey.
It's called Grab Life by theRains, and we share stories.
Many of those stories involveHorses and adventures with horses.
Andrea also moved out of her homecountry of England and moved to Costa

(58:20):
Rica, lived in Costa Rica for 18 years.
So we have a lot of stories aboutbeing white girls in foreign countries
and the adventures and the lessonsthat come to us through that.
And

That podcast is hilarious, by the way.
I, I started listening and I,one, I just love both of you.
You're both such great storytellers andyou're, you're you vibe together so well.
Like, it's so much fun to listen toyou guys tell stories to each other.

Yeah, we, we have so much fun doing that podcast.
Love sharing the stories and that isa great place to to connect with me.
And also, if you're listening tothis and you decide, you know what,
I want to learn to ride a horse, youcan, you can find me at horseclass.
com because that's what I do in my quoteunquote professional life is I teach horse

(59:07):
training and riding and all things horses.
Awesome.

So yeah, check out, check out Callie, check out
her podcast Grab Life by the Reins.
And then if you if this podcastMade you finally, you're like, I'm
going to be a horse person now.
Callie can be your horseperson mentor, horseclass.
com.
As always, you guys, you can followme on social media, Instagram, TikTok,
YouTube at the Fresh King Benjamin.
I do have a show coming up next week.

(59:33):
So next Sunday on April 7th.
At 7.
30pm at the Harriman Redemption Bar andGrill, that's where it's going to be.
And if you use my name when youbuy tickets, and you just pop in my
name, Benjamin, as a discount code,you can save two whole dollars.
Which will probably buy you half a beer,so you should definitely come out to that.

(59:55):
It's going to be Comedy Church, we'regoing to be talking about the Law of
Chastity, it's going to be hilarious.
Thanks for tuning in.
Callie, thanks for being on andeverybody take care out there.

Callie King (01:00:04):
Thank you so much.

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