July 2, 2024 • 50 mins
Join host Adam West in this insightful episode as he sits down with Reverend Dr. Carla Cheatham, a professor, national keynote speaker, and pastor of Faith United Church of Christ in New Braunfels. Reverend Dr. Cheatham shares her journey and discusses her consulting group, Emotional Intelligence for Professionals, and her impactful book, Hospice Whispers: Stories of Life.
The conversation delves into various topics including nonviolent resistance against hate, Christian nationalism, supporting the LGBTQ+ community, and the importance of self-care and resilience for professionals during the pandemic. Reverend Dr. Cheatham also talks about the welcoming and progressive environment at her church and their efforts to promote justice and equality.
Tune in to hear about her unique approach to trauma resolution therapy, her passion for teaching, and the inspiring ways her community is fostering love and acceptance.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Music.
(00:14):
The podcast. I'm Adam West. On this episode, we spend some time talking to the Reverend Dr.
Carla Cheatham. She's a professor and a national keynote speaker,
pastor of Faith United Church of Christ in New Braunfels.
We talk about her consulting group, Emotional Intelligence for Professionals,
about her church, nonviolent resistance against hate, Christian nationalism,
(00:38):
her book, Hospice Whispers, Stories of Life, professionals in dealing with the
pandemic, birth control and sex education, LGBTQ plus community support in New
Braunfels, and even some church happenings.
Joining me today is Reverend Dr.
Carla Cheatham, PhD, TRT. What's TRT?
(01:00):
Trauma Resolution Therapy. It's the form of trauma therapy I'm certified in.
Okay. Well, you have a lot of titles.
You must've spent a lot of time in school. Yeah, just a little bit.
Just a day or two, right? And we'll be paying the rest of my life,
paying off the student loans. Oh, yeah, I'm sure.
But it was worth it. I'm grateful. I'm sure. So your main, I mean,
you have a lot going on. You've written a book about hospice.
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You've got a consulting group, Emotional Intelligence for Professionals.
Tell me a little bit about that.
Yeah, it started as a training curriculum for folks working in hospice and palliative
care. that's just kind of expanded to be people of all interactions with humans.
It's how to care well for ourselves and show up well for others.
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So it covers everything from diversity and inclusion to attunement and healthy
teams and communication, boundaries, self-care, resilience.
Wow, that's a wide net. A wide net of care, yeah. Also do a lot for family caregivers.
And there's also a grief workbook to go along with the book of hospice stories
that people have used to help them process their own grief.
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Okay. And you do, you do, you travel and stuff speaking about that, right?
I do quite a bit. Not as much these days. Again, I'm a little more,
not landlocked, but I'm a little more local staying in New Braunfels more to
be present for the church since I'm full time with them at this point.
Okay. And tell me a little bit about the church. I know we've been there a couple of times. Yeah.
It's a very nice atmosphere. Thank you. It's a good group of folks.
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Small, friendly country church, very progressive in its views.
It's Faith Church, United Church of Christ. We are a denomination and a congregation
that believes that honoring God and following that radical hippie rabbi teacher
Jesus is about seeking justice and peace and equality for all of God's kids.
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And we think everyone's one of God's kids.
And Jesus was a liberal. Yeah. So we are very open in our beliefs and our views
and welcoming of others and very respectful of people of other faiths.
You know those yard signs that you see that say, in this house,
we believe science is real, love is love, no human is legal,
black lives matter, women's rights are human rights, those kinds of things.
We have one of those in our church. Oh, very cool. Okay. Yeah,
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I mean, it's a very welcoming atmosphere, obviously.
Everybody's loving and supportive. Supportive. Now, I know you've had some pushback
from the community, maybe about specific events that you've held at the church.
But in general, you know, has the reception been pretty good?
And general reception is pretty good.
Yeah, mostly people in town just want to be good neighbors.
Certainly there are culture wars that get created to try to make us be afraid
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of and turn on each other.
And certainly there are some from a smaller but loud segment of society that
wants to do what they can to have people come and push back against us.
Mainly the biggest would be in the drag show that was a little over a year ago.
But beyond that, folks mostly just kind of want to live and let live and let us be.
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That's good. That's good. Yeah. I remember, you know, attending that drag show
and then some of the protesters outside.
It was a really a pretty small group of loud voices, you know.
Yeah, it was. Well, it was around 100, 120 of them, but there were about 180 of us. Oh, that many?
Yeah. It was a pretty large group, but there was some miscommunication with
the bank next door and they wound up being able to protest right along the edge
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of our parking lot, which made things much more scary and much less safe.
But a lot of neo-Nazi groups and white supremacy groups and a lot of the typical
groups you would think of that are on the extreme right that need to act in hateful ways.
Ways. But our folks that came to support us, there were about 180 of us.
We formed a love choir and we kept everyone's backs turned to the protesters.
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And every person that we vetted to come on our property, I said,
these are the rules. My party, my rules.
We are going to be nonviolent in the ways that we engage. No taunting, no engaging.
We don't want to give airtime to those that are speaking and acting in hateful ways.
We also don't want to push back against them because verbal Verbal violence
is still violence, and that's not our ethic.
So we will be nonviolent and respectful in our resistance.
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And if you can't adhere to that,
I will have you trespassed off of our property just like anyone else.
So thankfully, everyone honored that, that ethic of we're going to be respectful
of all people. We can have differing views.
They have the right to protest, and people even have the right,
unfortunately, to act in hateful ways. But we will not return hate for hate.
That is awesome. And we were talking before the interview a little bit about
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that whole approach in dealing with opposing opinions, et cetera.
And, you know, I like that mantra. Right. Definitely.
It's the way that I know to live. I was inspired as a young child by,
I remember from fourth grade on, when I first started learning more about Reverend Dr.
Martin Luther King and Gandhi and others, the idea of nonviolent resistance
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has always appealed to me.
And as a gay woman in Northeast Texas, I certainly learned the benefit of being
able to stand firmly in my own truth, but in a way that didn't lash out at others.
And like many who've come from backgrounds where there was violence and trauma
in a family that struggled with brokenness and mental illness and other things,
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I just learned what it was like to be on the receiving end of violence.
And I never wanted to be someone who returned that violence.
There's enough hatred and harm and brokenness in the world. I don't want to
add to it, even in the pursuit of justice.
And if I'm pursuing justice, I'm not a pacifist, but I'm a just war theorist.
And the criteria for a just war is that it needs to be a just cause,
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that you go about pursuing in a just way or using just means.
And then the third criteria is that it must have a just outcome.
So to not go about using just means in whatever I do means that I become the
very thing that I'm protesting or working to stand up to. Right, right, right.
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And we were talking earlier, too, a little bit about the difference between
people that do nothing but complain and then other people complain.
That actually offer solutions, right?
Yeah, it's the cheap seats to just sit and hurl insults. Yeah, well said.
Yeah, and make complaints, once I eventually got it out.
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But to sit and just complain, and, you know, Brene Brown said it best when she
had her quote from, I think it was a Teddy Roosevelt quote about the arena,
that it's not the people who stand around and complain and critique,
it's the people that are actually involved in trying to make things happen.
And I read a blog post several years ago, I believe after the last administration,
in 2016, around that time, when I had someone reach out to me on social media
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and say, why don't you speak out more against X, Y, and Z, this person, that issue?
And I said, I do, but I don't speak out against. I prefer to speak out far.
Anyone can speak out against something and someone, but at the end of the day,
I want to be more less about being against and more about standing up far,
what is right and what is good, because I think where we put our attention and
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where we put our energy is what we energize.
So I can give airtime to the nastiness, I can vent and I complain.
But when I do that, I'm just adding to the muck and the mire and the noise that's
going on that has everyone so tired and exhausted and certainly we need safe places to vent.
But at the end of the day, if I'm just going to grouse, I then have used my
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energy just to bitch and complain that I ordinarily could use instead to actually
do something to make a constructive difference.
And I would rather do that than just be about the bitching and complaining.
Well, it makes perfect sense. How do we get more people to adopt that attitude?
It's a good question. I think we model it. I think I think we call each other
forth and hold each other accountable to do that, especially in movements where
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we're all working for the same things together.
I think we consistently give ourselves safe space to vent,
but maybe we do that more in private amongst ourselves to give ourselves space
to grieve, to deal with the trauma of what we're struggling with,
to deal with our frustrations and our anger and our hurt and our fears and our
triggers. We have safe space for that.
And when we go into the public sphere, I think that is when if we cannot just
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add to the muck and the mire and the noise, but actually be a constructive, positive voice.
I think people stand up and listen when someone's speaking differently.
And whenever someone is just, again, doing the growl scene, that's not much
different these days, unfortunately. Right, right, right.
And we were talking earlier, too, about a situation, for example,
that you experienced just last night where, you know, somebody was shouting
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over somebody and talking over talking over you and et cetera, et cetera.
And you kind of have a way of bringing them down and, OK, I'll listen to you
and then you listen to me, you know, without.
Butting heads. Right. The idea
is not to be against, but to invite someone to be their better selves.
But it's also, you know, we have a saying at the church, all people are welcome, all behavior is not.
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Because humans in groups will always have, we bring our stuff with us.
We have our humanity that we bring with us. There will be conflicts,
there will be struggles.
That's expected and that's actually healthy when we feel safe enough to do that.
But we also have to feel safe enough and also held accountable enough to do
so in constructive ways.
And so when that's not happening, I think it's important for us to say,
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hey, this is not okay. We're going to do this differently.
And thankfully, I'm surrounded by a tremendous tribe of people that's ever growing
that are willing to say, okay, we're going to do this differently.
Yeah, let's back up and have a redo.
And that's exactly what I got to experience with a friend last night.
And I will do that any day of the week.
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Well, I did want to talk a little bit about your church.
Yeah, the United Church of Christ, we came out of the Reformed tradition.
So that means from the Martin Luther Reformation.
So we come from a similar stock as the Methodist and the Lutherans, etc.
We are a denomination that was a combination of four different denominations,
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smaller denominations that joined together in 1957. 57.
And as we have grown, we're very prominent in the Midwest and Northeast and
a lot on the West Coast as well.
A lot of UCC churches in Hawaii, but we are very congregationalist in our polity,
meaning that the local church is the one that can discern for themselves where
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they believe that God is calling them to be and how God is calling them to be.
But we do have national leaders, regional national leaders that are there to
support us and help us and to give us guidance and help organize us,
but we are a denomination that is probably about as far left and still be called
Christian in terms of our theological and political views.
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And there are a lot of folks that don't think some of us are Christian because
we are so far, so progressive and open.
But we have UCC churches that are more conservative, more progressive.
Ours is one that's more progressive.
After Roe v. Wade was overturned, we voted to become a reproductive freedom congregation.
I mean, we advocate for the right of women and those who can bear children to
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have equal access to make their own decisions to health care in whatever ways
they believe that they and their family believe that they need to pursue. So.
Yeah, pretty open hearted bunch of folks that just want everyone to be able
to have what they need. All right. Well, that's that's cool. I like that.
I like the sound of that. Have you ever considered running for office?
I have been asked too many times. I have considered and I I know that with running
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for office, there is a need sometimes in order to be able to do the greater
good to compromise in more ways than I believe that I personally could without
having my toenails curl.
So I did not think that that's something that I wanted to do.
I much more prefer to use my work in other ways. Yeah.
So getting back to your church. Well, to be clear, I'm really grateful for the
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progressive leaders that we do have that are willing to be in there,
like our new mayor pro tem Andre Campos,
who is an amazing man who wants to serve all citizens of the community and is
willing to work with people however it's necessary to try to make that happen.
And but at the end of the day is not going to compromise so far that he loses his principles.
So I think it is possible to be in politics and not compromise away one's soul.
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But that much diplomacy that was needed, I just didn't think that I could go that far.
Sure, sure. And I think, well, just my personal opinion that a lot of politicians
do get into it for the right reasons, but end up getting corrupted along the way.
So, you know. Or getting so disillusioned or trying to do what they think is
right, but doing so in ways that use tactics that I don't think are appropriate.
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Sure. And I think on the local level, they're more community oriented and less
corrupted in general, you know. Possibly.
Possibly. Okay. Well, yeah, that's true. I guess you never can tell.
Well, there is certainly the lobbying issue that gets into play that money does come first.
And then making deals and yeah, sure. But probably not so much on the local level.
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You know, probably not as much. Not the high dollar numbers. Right.
So did you, as the church, are you doing services every Sunday?
Every Sunday, 10 a.m. Okay.
Okay. And then special events all throughout the month.
We do Theology on Tap the third Sunday of the month where it's grab a beer or
adult beverage or any beverage of your choice.
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We have many, many in our community that are sober.
And so we honor that as well. make safe space for them, but grab a beverage
and kick back and ask the pastor questions.
But it goes not just to me, it goes to the whole group. We'll cover different
topics around progressive issues, LGBTQ issues in the Bible.
We've talked about common sense gun safety.
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We've talked about reproductive issues.
We've talked about just about immigration.
We talked about every topic under the sun, and then we'll open it up for anyone to ask a question.
So recently, Recently, someone said they wanted to talk about sex because so
many of their friends and neighbors and family members who were people of faith
were hesitant to talk openly about sexuality.
And I used to teach sex ed, so I can say all the words without getting embarrassed.
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And so we had a great conversation, and I was thrilled to hear everyone chiming
in with their questions and their comments and how they approach things.
It was a very open, loving, healthy conversation with a lot of humor as well.
So it was a great day. So we do that.
We do a game night where we try to bring in others in the progressive community
just to make safe space so people know that they are not alone in this town
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and to build deeper relationships and community.
So we do a lot with working with First Footing and Connections and New Braunfels
Homeless Coalition and have worked with the food banks.
We're working now with the pilot test to see if we can get enough gardens to
grow in the back of our property because we have a huge quarter acre at the
back of our property that's not being used. And we don't talk about sin and
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judgment and heaven and hell at our church.
We don't talk about sin and judgment in that way. But if I were going to use
the word sin, it would be for a faith community to have facilities and property
that it wasn't using for the betterment of others.
So I want to make good use of that property behind our space.
Yeah, that's also an interesting distinction, too, when you talk about belief
in God and different factions of religion. and whether I was brought up believing
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that God was all-loving, where...
A lot of other faiths are, you know, God-fearing, you know, and I just think
that's counterproductive, you know.
Well, I would say maybe other denominations. I don't know that many other faiths
outside of Christianity tend to have as much of God-fearing in them.
Yeah, you're right, the denominations.
Right, but denominations, yes. There are certainly, of our more conservative
siblings, that do have a belief in a God that needs to be feared and the God
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of justice and the God of all and wonder.
And my reading of scripture, my understanding of God,
my beliefs about Jesus are that Jesus was teaching that the kingdom of God,
not kingdom of dominance, but the kingdom of God lives inside of you and that
we are all equally children of the divine and deserve to be treated as such. Sure.
As far as religion then and Christianity, and we talked earlier before,
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before recording about Christian nationalism.
Yeah. Grown. Yeah. Yeah, that'll make this pastor cups.
Okay, we talked about the history of how some of the right wing went,
you know, where it began, the moral majority and all that, you know,
and I think that's pretty interesting history.
And a lot of people probably don't realize where it all began.
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In my mind, you know, I'm thinking about Newt Gingrich, you know,
and then it kind of that's in my mind, that's kind of where.
Yeah, it's been in process for many decades. And some of us had the front row
seat of it. I was a Northeast Texas Southern Baptist, but they were the Jimmy
Carter Southern Baptist back in the day.
Yeah, you were saying it goes all the way back to the 50s. Yes, definitely.
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After the, well, if you follow people like Heather Cox Richardson and other
professors of political history who talk about the background of where some of the
things we're facing currently came from, they point back to the fact that business
has sought to deregulate itself or to have the government get out of regulating
business for centuries.
But as anytime we humans have an opportunity to get what we want by scaring
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others, it seems like we humans tend to do that.
And after Brown v. Board of Education, when a lot of people were fired up around
issues of race, we started seeing a huge trend toward trying to make people
afraid of persons of color.
And we saw people being mobilized to be afraid of immigrants.
We saw groups trying to make people afraid of LGBTQIA plus persons.
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Anytime there's an excuse to scare people, to rile them up, to be against each
other, and to whip up dollars and whip up votes, it seems that there are some
that are convinced that that's the best tactic to use.
I think a lot of what's happened in the last several decades has been the co-opting
of religion. And I personally am against that.
I think Christian nationalism is not Christian. No, absolutely not.
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And, you know, that ties in with the reason, one of the main reasons for the
foundation of this country was not to be dictated by a specific religion, right? Exactly.
And so, you know, whatever happened to the separation of church and state? Exactly. Yeah.
Oftentimes there will be people in the public sphere who are very anti-religion.
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And when they first meet me, one of the things that they'll do is ask in a challenging
way, expecting me to get defensive and say, well, do you believe in the separation of church and state?
Do you believe that churches should pay taxes? And they're surprised when I
say, actually, yes, yes, I do believe churches should pay taxes.
Unless we can prove that we are spending X amount of our resources to try to
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do good works in the community like other nonprofits.
Then I believe if we cannot prove that we are doing that, then we deserve to
pay. We should be paying our fair share.
Yeah, absolutely. So that pushes us to either be using our resources to do good
like a nonprofit would, or to if we're just...
Making our own country club to make ourselves feel better, to come in and have
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as an exclusive place, then yeah, I think we should be paying to help out the rest of society.
And so many mega churches, you know, and their big grift, if you will.
Yeah. I mean, there's some definitely anything good can come from anything,
I believe. No person, no place, no organization is one thing.
And so, I mean, you've heard me sharing earlier, I'm much more concerned with
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talking about being for things rather than against things.
So yeah, Yeah, certainly there are some megachurches that have done some amazing
things and do some amazing things.
And there are some times when practices have been incredibly,
just like any other organization, where groups of people can become corrupt
and act in such ways that do great harm to people.
So we certainly have a lot of people these days that are recovering from or
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living with or dealing with or even experiencing religious trauma from religious
abuse, which I think is quite prevalent these days, especially with Christian
nationalism. Sure, sure.
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Yeah. I'm more about calling us forth to stop doing that crap. Well said.
Yeah, I like it said in layman's terms like that. Okay, so you've got a book that you published.
Hospice Whispers, Stories of Life, Hospice Whispers Series, Book One,
which is in paperback and available on Kindle, right? Also the audio book.
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Yeah. Tell me a little bit about that. Yeah. The training curriculum that I've
used when I teach and train and consult for 10 years or 15 years now,
but I told stories in the midst of doing the trainings.
It was a spoonful of sugar to help the medicine go down.
Stories of things I had done well and things I had completely screwed up in
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my work, both in early days as a therapist and then working in chaplaincy.
And as I shared stories, I mean, the story, the idea behind the book was to
get the stories out there to better help people who don't understand hospice
and are afraid of it, to better understand it and be willing to bring hospice in sooner.
We really got tired in the industry of hearing people say, oh my goodness,
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this hospice experience was so wonderful.
If only we had known when dad died, or if only we had not waited to bring grandma
and services so late, we could have so much more benefited from the services
y'all had to provide, but we just didn't understand what hospice was and wasn't,
and we were afraid of it, and we avoided it.
So the stories were designed to show people what the end of life could look
like, that death is a nanosecond.
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But there's all this life that happens up until that nanosecond of death and
living that can happen, that hospice can come in and help make so much more
possible by providing pain management and symptom relief,
providing psychosocial spiritual support for the patient and for the family.
And so the more hospice can be involved longer, the better off it can be for
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the patient and the family.
So that was one goal of it. It was also designed to be a bit of a training manual
for volunteers and hospice and palliative care staff.
And then it turned out to be so much more. A lot of people said the stories
in the book helped them be able to grieve their own process, their own journey.
So that's why the Grief Workbook came to be, is a series of questions related
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to the stories in the book to help people process through using the stories
to process through their own experiences.
But I was really touched and helped and humbled when I would receive comments
from people saying, I just bought five copies for each of my adult children,
because this isn't just a book about healthcare.
This is a book about how to just be a good human and how to be present with other people.
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I also had family, one person in particular who said, I have everyone who's
been telling me that I'm grieving wrong, that it's been five years after the
death of my child and that I should be over it by now.
And when I read your book and you talked about some of the things we do and
don't say to people who are suffering and you talked about how we get to find
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our own journey and find our own grief process.
And she said, it just gave me this openness and this freedom that I had not
had. So I'm grateful for the help that it's been able to be to people.
Well, that's so true. It's such a hard topic to approach for a lot of people,
you know, and grief is different for everybody, really.
And so there's no right or wrong way. And exactly.
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There's really not. I mean, so long as it's not hurting yourself or someone
else, people need to be allowed to grieve as they need to grieve and take the
time that they need to do so.
So many of us right now are walking around with
of unresolved grief and trauma from the pandemic and we don't realize it. Oh yeah.
And so many are walking around feeling like a crispy critter,
not fit for human consumption.
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I used to do, especially during the pandemic, I did a lot of Facebook live videos
since traveling to speak around the country wasn't as much possible in the first
year and a half to two years.
So I did a lot of my, put a lot of my content out on social media through videos
or Facebook live videos, talking about all my content, but breaking it up into
smaller segments and And sharing with people what I thought would be helpful for them.
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So that instead of doing this just for professional caregivers,
it was resilience for the average bear.
The things that I teach, how they could be, how daily lay people not in health
care or professional caregiving could make access of those tools to help them
through what we were all facing.
And so I was grateful for that. But recently did another Facebook Live video.
It just felt like the time to say that if you're feeling like a crispy critter
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not fit for human consumption,
if you are feeling like you can't, you don't have two brain cells to rub together,
if you're forgetfulness, if you're forgetful, if you're snarky,
if you don't feel like you have the energy to do the things that you know to
do that would make you feel better or get better things done.
If you're just struggling and don't feel like you can get off the couch,
to just be especially gentle with yourselves and to be gentle with each other.
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Because when we go through times of stress and distress.
When we are recovering from grief and trauma, the research showed after SARS-1 in 2003,
2004, that the immediate burnout rates for frontline healthcare workers did
not occur immediately after or even during the first pandemic back then in 2003, 2004.
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The peak burnout rates didn't occur until 18 to 36 months after the pandemic was over.
Because we don't process trauma when we're going through it. We are in survival mode.
After the trauma is over, that is when we can begin to relax.
And as we try to get back into our lives, we think, woohoo, everything's better
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now. But then we find that we're struggling and we don't know why.
And it's because that is when our brains can finally start to process what we went through back then.
And so a lot of people walking around with grief and trauma and just don't realize it right now.
And so just be extra gentle and extra slow, because when we're going When we're
at rest, our brain consumes 37% to 42% of our body's resources.
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Something like that. But when we are in times of distress, the brain will consume
93% of our body's resources.
So even though we haven't run a marathon, our brain, the supercomputer of our
brain, trying to process the grief, process whatever it is that we're facing,
and trying to come to terms with what we've previously faced,
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our brain will suck all the resources of blood glucose and oxygen and nutrients
from the rest of our bodies.
So it'll feel like our bodies are as depleted as they would have been if we'd
run a marathon, even if we've only walked from the bedroom to the bathroom to
the couch and gone, yep, I'm done for the day. I don't have anything else.
I don't have anything left in me.
So just telling people that and naming that for people, I was stunned by the
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number of responses of people saying, thank you. I needed to hear this.
Thank you for validating and affirming that I'm not crazy. I'm not broken,
that there's nothing wrong with me, that my brain and my body are doing exactly
what they're supposed to do to take care of me. right now.
I think just naming and normalizing that for each other helps people to relax
and not be so hard or harsh on themselves or each other.
(28:31):
And just naming it, it gives that relaxation of, okay, really,
I'm not crazy and I'm not an idiot and I don't suck. And you're not alone.
Exactly. I think that makes a huge difference for folks. Yeah, I think you're right.
And, you know, after the pandemic, it affected so many people,
such a large portion of the population compared to, say, you know,
emergency workers that have and doctors.
(28:53):
That have to kind of learn to compartmentalize, you know, and build a wall where
they, okay, I can be a professional, but then. Yeah. But even the pandemic.
And it's different for them, you know. Right. But yes. And hopefully care professional
caregivers have a few more tools.
But during this, so I was, I teach for the University of Maryland.
I helped start their master's of science in palliative care.
(29:14):
And I had students, we have students from all over the world from all letters
of the alphabet working in healthcare.
And I had students, nurses and physicians that were on the border of Taiwan
and China and were testing who got to come in and got to come out because there was a strange virus.
And that was in the late fall of 2019.
So some of us had a bit of a head start in realizing that the pandemic was coming our direction.
(29:39):
So we started preparing ourselves to help our colleagues and the people that
we trained and taught to be able to get ready because the most seasoned, healthy,
strong, emotionally mature professionals, it just about broke them because it
was the moral distress, the moral injury of the moral distress of I have,
(30:01):
there's so much suffering and I can't get to all of it.
Or the moral injury of we know that we don't leave people to let them die alone
without letting their families come see them.
And yet we had to for a while because letting people come into a skilled nursing
facility, for instance, to see their spouse or their loved one was just not
safe because of the risk of spreading the virus to so many others.
(30:23):
We just didn't know. Exactly. And dealing with death after death after death. That was hard enough.
The work I was doing, I was doing two and three hundred trauma debriefs a day
with frontline COVID workers.
And during the pandemic and it, I was doing everything I can,
could to help support them, give them space to offload their grief and trauma,
(30:43):
practice their own resilience and self-care, boost themselves back up and then
go back in, in a way that cared for themselves.
But you also have to remember, they were humans going through the pandemic too.
They had their own loved ones in facilities. They had their own children working
by computer trying to do school from home.
They had their own fears about, am I bringing the virus home to my children
(31:08):
because I've been out and about and working in health care?
And so they had the personal grief and trauma they were experiencing,
but then they had the professional as well. And that was hard enough on health care staff.
But then when the culture war around vaccination started and physicians and
nurses were trying to speak at school boards to encourage them to maintain masking
(31:32):
and safety protocols and vaccinations and people were publishing their addresses.
And so folks were coming.
They would come out to the school board meetings to have people having stabbed
their tires to deflate them.
They would have people posting their address and threatening them and their family.
The nastiness around it. They had people screaming at them for ivermectin and
(31:53):
drugs that were not proven to work and sometimes some cases not proven not to work.
The lack of information, there's the culture war that got manipulated around
the pandemic and people not doing the things that they knew to do to take care
of themselves and each other properly.
When the Delta variant hit about a year and a half into the pandemic.
(32:14):
So the summer of that would have been, let's see, it would have been summer
of 2021, when that variant hit and it was preventable because of enough people who'd been vaccinated,
we would not have had that surge, was when that one really took a lot of healthcare
professionals to their knees because we trust our fellow humans to do what's
right, to take care of us, to take care of each other.
(32:35):
And if they know that they're doing something that's harming someone else,
or if they know that they could do something to help someone else, they'd be willing.
And when folks were not willing to vaccinate and folks fought so hard against
that, and suddenly the deaths that were happening, the illnesses that were happening,
the overwhelm of healthcare staff and hospitals that were happening,
the threats to their own lives, when all of that happened, that one really took
(32:58):
people out because it wasn't just a pandemic.
It was now a culture war that was causing a problem them that could have been prevented.
And now I just read the other day talking about measles and even polio making
a comeback because, you know, ballooned into this whole anti-vax of any kind
that there's a lot of that going on right now.
And that's just as silly, you know, I mean, we thought we put some of these
(33:21):
things to bed pretty much permanently and now it's going to make a comeback.
We humans keep finding ways to bring back some of our old fights,
just wearing in different faces.
So we get scared. What's the expression about, you know, learn history or else
you're doomed to repeat it. Exactly.
And so when we get scared enough or we allow others to manipulate us to be afraid
of each other or to be afraid around certain things that are given misinformation.
(33:44):
It's amazing how easily we can be twisted and manipulated to fight against each
other and to fight against our own best interest.
Yeah. Fight against your own best interest.
There's quite a few examples of that in the world today. That's for sure.
I was going to say, you know, you were talking about the stress on health care
workers. And of course, Donna was a nurse during that time. Right.
That's right. I forgot that you were working during the pandemic.
(34:06):
A women's clinic. It wasn't a life or death situations, but,
you know, the stress that it put on the doctors and getting patients to cooperate,
you know, when they were coming into the office and you had to change protocol and all that.
Yeah, that was off mic. So I don't know if you could really hear that.
But you were saying that if patients had COVID and they were pregnant.
Or if they would quarantine before they came in to deliver to decrease the risk
(34:30):
of having COVID when they gave birth to their child.
Okay. So they couldn't take the baby home.
After delivery, that must have been a shock. It was, especially when they had
to hand the baby over to grandma or auntie or whomever, you know,
someone else that could take and take care of this baby that they were not expecting
to have to take care of a newborn. Yeah, yeah.
(34:51):
We've talked about that a lot. You know, you're working for the women's clinic
and how many parents, especially in South Texas, you know, would come and say,
oh, my daughter's not, you know, she's not active.
She's not sexually active. And, you know, and they don't want to,
they deny it, even though it's happening, don't want to see it or whatever it is.
And then, you know, they don't want to teach sex education or prevention,
(35:16):
you know, pregnancy prevention, abstinence. Yeah. Yeah.
And, you know, and forget about birth control. We don't want to,
we don't want to mention birth control. Part of my doctoral education and research
was around adolescent sexuality and sexuality and spirituality and spirituality and health.
But with adolescent sexuality, the data overwhelmingly shows that if you provide
(35:38):
access to comprehensive sexuality education and access to contraception,
not only does it not encourage kids to have sex,
it actually delays the onset of first intercourse.
They wait longer to have sex because you've given them the tools and the resources
and the know-how and the ability to talk comfortably with their potential partners
(36:00):
so that instead of falling into something and feeling coerced,
they're able to use the words and have the conversation to make more reasonable
decisions for themselves that helps them make smarter decisions for themselves
and makes them wait longer.
And then when they do actually engage in sexual activities.
Then they are significantly more likely to use contraception,
(36:23):
and it significantly decreases the prevalence of HIV, AIDS, other STDs,
and unplanned pregnancies. Yeah.
Overwhelmingly, it's shown that abstinence-only education doesn't work.
My professor at the time got a grant through a state organization,
and she did this huge research campaign about assessing the efficacy of the
(36:47):
different forms of sexuality education, primarily abstinence-only education.
And when overwhelmingly the data showed that it did not work and that comprehensive
sexuality education and access to contraception did,
it was quietly put into a drawer because they knew that the politicians wouldn't like it.
(37:07):
That's crazy. I mean, yeah, comprehensive education, you know,
will create more responsible individuals when it comes to sexuality for sure.
Right. And imagine us being able to be responsible for ourselves by having access
to the information and the tools that we need. Yeah.
Now, wait a minute. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that one of the main
credos of the Republican Party is people being responsible for themselves.
(37:31):
Sex when it comes to sex or, yeah, something they want.
But, you know, that one of the things I always learned, you know,
was you're responsible to be responsible.
So, OK, so, Carla, there was a city council meeting in the city of New Braunfels recently. Thank you.
But it was all about the city's Pride Month celebration, correct?
(37:53):
Yes, there was a Mayor Pro Tem André Campos had put out a proclamation honoring
Pride Month, which is often what happens in the city and most cities do to acknowledge
Pride Month during the month of June.
And but there so he and Councilmember Lee Edwards and Councilmember April Ryan,
all three came to the Pride Festival a couple of weeks ago and read that proclamation
(38:18):
as a sign of solidarity and unity and support for the LGBTQIA plus community and our allies.
And yeah, there were some we got word that there were going to be some folks
at the council meeting who were going to come and try to chastise those council
members for their support. Okay, so was the entire council in favor of the celebration?
No, not all. But the majority? Not all. I don't know if they have a majority.
(38:42):
But there were these three council members in particular who were being supportive.
And so when we heard that there were some folks that were going to come and
try to chastise them and call them out for being supportive of the queer community.
Basically harass them? Yeah, and so we decided that there were a,
we wanted to provide a counterpoint and let people know that not one of them
(39:03):
in particular, a couple of them claimed to be coming from a faith perspective.
But the ways that they speak are quite hostile and aggressive and quite hateful
in the ways that they speak to others and could even be traumatizing for folks
religiously because of the way they use scripture and God.
So we decided that it would be important for us to show an alternative Christian
(39:23):
voice or an alternative voice of beliefs and people of goodwill. So we had 11 clergy.
We had a room full of people that
we packed the chamber to just provide one statement that was respectful and
positive and supportive and thanking those who stood with the LGBTQIA plus community
(39:43):
and asking for others to join them about the need for that we are stronger as
a community when we use the rich diversity of all.
All of our members and make certain that no one feels safe and unafraid,
that no one feels unafraid and that everyone feels safe.
So about issues of justice and equality and inclusion and just making certain
that no one needs to stand alone.
(40:04):
So we read that one statement and had the 11 of us clergy that were there that
stood behind it and then asked for those in the room who were there to stand with us to do so.
And almost the entire room in that chamber stood up and cheered and applauded
to lend their support, which was pretty beautiful.
A lot of folks like to rail against what they don't like or to rail it against
(40:27):
the people that they think are doing things that are hurtful and harmful.
And as I said earlier, I would much rather spend my energy not griping and complaining
about them, not giving them airtime and not returning hate for hate,
but instead seeing what we can do to bring about what is positive and constructive.
Because if so many of us, like we did at that council meeting,
come from different segments different groups, even different backgrounds and
(40:51):
views and beliefs, but have the things that we do agree on, which is love and
acceptance and unity and safety and equal rights,
then we can be incredibly powerful.
And when we feel that strong, that safe, and that supported,
we don't need to lash out against anyone else because we feel solid enough to
be able to just be without being afraid, without being angry.
(41:14):
I love what Brene Brown says, don't puff up, don't get small,
just stand in your own sacred ground.
And when we stand together, honoring the values that we do agree on.
We don't need to lash out. We don't need to run away. We can just stand firmly
and be and support what we believe is good and right.
So I was really grateful for everyone showing up and honoring that ethic last
(41:34):
night at the council meeting and being professional and dignified and respectful,
but standing and cheering clearly for what they thought was right. Well said. Well said.
Be careful who you hate. It might be someone you love.
Exactly. The number of people who get up in arms about certain issues,
whether it's LGBTQA plus issues or anything, far too often forget that people
(41:57):
that they love and care about are people who hold those differences.
And at the end of the day, when we can just be with people as they are where
they are and accept them as they are, then I believe that does a lot more good
in the world than anything else.
Without a doubt. You got anything else going on with the church?
Any events coming up? Not certain about our schedule for Theology on Tap and
(42:19):
Game Night and other events during July and August because this pastor's taking
a few weeks off during that time.
Is there a website or place where people can just kind of stay on top of what events you have?
I would follow us on Facebook. Right now we're in the process of trying to transition
our website to a new platform, so it is way out of date.
But if folks follow us on social media, Faith Church New Braunfels,
(42:42):
then they can certainly keep up with everything that we are doing there.
Or we try to advertise things there pretty well. Okay, excellent.
You said you're going on vacation and I know you're an avid hiker and biker.
Mountain biker. Mountain biker. And wow, that's a...
Sounds like a lot of fun. It is a blast. And I am so tired right now.
(43:02):
I don't know that I could get my butt up the mountain, but I will certainly
be trying to find a way to hop in the car with the dog and the tent and the
bikes and hiking poles and go see what mountain I can find to hang out in,
even if I just put my butt on a rock and rejuice and recuperate because we've had a lot going on.
We just had our third annual Interfaith Pride worship service.
(43:22):
And attendance continues to be beautiful at those. And we have another faith
community, another church in town that has, they're talking to their council,
so I can't name the church just yet, but they're talking about hosting it this next year.
And we already have a speaker lined up. We're pretty sure we have the musical
entertainment lined up. So we are way ahead for next year, thankfully.
(43:43):
But it's been a busy season for us. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, we're a little tired. And the extroverted St.
Bernard puppy Aries pastor tends to get my church into a lot of stuff.
And there comes a point when we're all tired and need to just have happy hours
and game nights and sit around and relax a little bit. So that's what we're
doing the rest of the summer.
(44:04):
Is there any particular place that you like to go? Do your hiking,
your outdoor activities?
I'm a... Head for the mountains? Are you a mountains or a beach person?
I mean, I love the beach. I did my open water dive certification at Cozumel.
So the fact that Southwest flies nonstop from Austin now is pretty cool,
(44:24):
especially since I have a crap ton of travel miles through Southwest from all
my business travels that I used to do.
But I'm definitely more of a mountain girl when I have the opportunity.
If I'm not going to go straight to the ocean and get under the water and dive
or hang in a hammock and drink rum and nap and then go snorkel and dive, but really my...
(44:46):
First choice is to go get into the mountains. So Colorado, Montana, Wyoming.
Oh, yeah. A lot in Utah, but I have my favorite haunts in Colorado, especially.
But when I can get to the Grand Tetons, I do because I am in love with that place.
Have an invitation to come to a pulpit swap with a church in Washington,
off the coast of Washington, outside of a place called Fox Island.
(45:07):
So a UCC church there that wants to do a pulpit swap. And I'm like,
sure, we could talk about that.
So I don't know exactly what I'm going to do. But definitely getting out in
the mountains, being able to see the night sky and just sit and breathe,
but mostly just being unplugged so that I can practice what I teach of just
being present with myself and letting my neurochemistry calm down and relax
(45:31):
to just be so that when I come back,
I can be fully present for people and not scattered all over the place.
Well, it sounds pretty active. I've got. I wanted to ask, I heard a rumor that
you teach your dance teacher in addition to everything else. Yes.
I was being asked that there was a rumor that I'm a dance teacher. Yes.
Oh, you're right. I did hear that myself. I've taught country western dance for 30 years.
(45:54):
They don't allow you outside of East Texas. They don't let you graduate in Northeast
Texas unless you know how to two-step.
I've had people try to teach me numerous times. Oh, you're about to throw down
the gauntlet, and I'm going to tell you. You've heard of two left feet.
I think I have three. 30 years.
In 30 years, I have never had anyone I could not teach.
(46:14):
And I taught at A&M where I had electrical engineers who were so in their freaking
heads with no sense of their bodies.
Although one of my congregants said, she said, I'm offended.
I'm an engineer and I dance and I'm a dancer. But so there are exceptions.
But no, I when I taught at A&M, I had a lot of folks that were convinced they
could never learn how to dance. And since then, in 30 years,
(46:35):
I've never had anybody that I could not teach.
Most folks' way of getting instruction in how to dance, country dance,
is in a dark, crowded, loud bar with a lot of alcohol involved.
Someone saying, here, do this.
And then when they can't do this, they think they can't dance.
But when it's quiet and the lights are on and you can hear each other and someone
(46:58):
breaks it down and says, we're going to take a step here, here,
here, and here. And then people go, wait, that's it?
Yep, that's it. So come Saturday night.
And I promise you, I promise you, heck, before we leave here in 10 minutes,
I will have you two-stepping. So two-step, polka, watch, jitterbug.
Yeah, it's a lot of fun. I don't know. That song, the Genesis song,
(47:19):
I Can't Dance, was written for me.
All right. Gauntlet's thrown down. I'm telling you, I have a perfect record.
And it will not. It will not be squashed. I'll take you to task there.
All right. All right. Well, so Carla, I want to thank you for spending so much time.
Again, you have a website so people can find out more about you and about your
book and et cetera, et cetera.
(47:41):
Excellent. Also not very well updated, but there's a lot of good information
there, along with some videos and access to some of the things that I teach.
Okay. CarlaCheatham.com.
CarlaCheatham.com spelled C-H-E-A-T-H-A-M. H-A, don't forget the H.
Cheat on a test and ham on a website. If you ever listen to Click and Clack.
Yep. If you ever listened to, or like Cheatham Street Warehouse.
(48:02):
Yeah, there you go. If you ever listened to Click and Clack Car Talk on NPR
back in the day, they would always, almost always end their broadcast by saying
they would like to thank their lawyers from the law firm of Dewey,
Cheatham, and Howe. Dewey, Cheatham, and Howe, yes.
And growing up, I would have people ask me if my daddy worked for the law firm
of Dewey, Cheatham, and Howe.
And I was already enough of a little feminist. I'd stamp my little redheaded
(48:23):
foot and go, no, but my mama does, even though she wasn't a lawyer.
But, you know, I just had to push back.
Excellent. Excellent. All right. Well, thanks again, Carla.
And we'll be looking for you over at the Church of New Braunfels.
And we can find out more. And don't forget about your book, Hospice Whispers, Stories of Life.
(48:43):
Book one, the Hospice Whispers series. Book one is out. Is there book two?
Book two is the Grief Work book, Sharing Our Stories. So both are available.
Both are available, certainly. And you can find them on Amazon.
Yes. Although the authors always prefer that you get them straight from the
author. So there's on the website, there's the author signed copies,
which you'll get directly from me because through if you need to get them through
(49:06):
Amazon, no harm, no foul.
But just know that when Amazon sells them, they get about 90 percent of the profits.
So anything you can do to buy directly from artists, musicians, authors, what have you.
It's a good, easy way to get things out there and make it more available to people.
But I definitely always prefer to hand them to them myself and get most to get
more of the profit to help pay the bills.
(49:27):
Right on. I hear you. All right. Well, thanks a lot, Carla. Thank you very much.
(49:59):
Music.
Music.
(00:14):
The podcast. I'm Adam West. On this episode, we spend some time talking to the Reverend Dr.
Carla Cheatham. She's a professor and a national keynote speaker,
pastor of Faith United Church of Christ in New Braunfels.
We talk about her consulting group, Emotional Intelligence for Professionals,
about her church, nonviolent resistance against hate, Christian nationalism,
(00:38):
her book, Hospice Whispers, Stories of Life, professionals in dealing with the
pandemic, birth control and sex education, LGBTQ plus community support in New
Braunfels, and even some church happenings.
Joining me today is Reverend Dr.
Carla Cheatham, PhD, TRT. What's TRT?
(01:00):
Trauma Resolution Therapy. It's the form of trauma therapy I'm certified in.
Okay. Well, you have a lot of titles.
You must've spent a lot of time in school. Yeah, just a little bit.
Just a day or two, right? And we'll be paying the rest of my life,
paying off the student loans. Oh, yeah, I'm sure.
But it was worth it. I'm grateful. I'm sure. So your main, I mean,
you have a lot going on. You've written a book about hospice.
(01:22):
You've got a consulting group, Emotional Intelligence for Professionals.
Tell me a little bit about that.
Yeah, it started as a training curriculum for folks working in hospice and palliative
care. that's just kind of expanded to be people of all interactions with humans.
It's how to care well for ourselves and show up well for others.
(01:42):
So it covers everything from diversity and inclusion to attunement and healthy
teams and communication, boundaries, self-care, resilience.
Wow, that's a wide net. A wide net of care, yeah. Also do a lot for family caregivers.
And there's also a grief workbook to go along with the book of hospice stories
that people have used to help them process their own grief.
(02:03):
Okay. And you do, you do, you travel and stuff speaking about that, right?
I do quite a bit. Not as much these days. Again, I'm a little more,
not landlocked, but I'm a little more local staying in New Braunfels more to
be present for the church since I'm full time with them at this point.
Okay. And tell me a little bit about the church. I know we've been there a couple of times. Yeah.
It's a very nice atmosphere. Thank you. It's a good group of folks.
(02:26):
Small, friendly country church, very progressive in its views.
It's Faith Church, United Church of Christ. We are a denomination and a congregation
that believes that honoring God and following that radical hippie rabbi teacher
Jesus is about seeking justice and peace and equality for all of God's kids.
(02:48):
And we think everyone's one of God's kids.
And Jesus was a liberal. Yeah. So we are very open in our beliefs and our views
and welcoming of others and very respectful of people of other faiths.
You know those yard signs that you see that say, in this house,
we believe science is real, love is love, no human is legal,
black lives matter, women's rights are human rights, those kinds of things.
We have one of those in our church. Oh, very cool. Okay. Yeah,
(03:11):
I mean, it's a very welcoming atmosphere, obviously.
Everybody's loving and supportive. Supportive. Now, I know you've had some pushback
from the community, maybe about specific events that you've held at the church.
But in general, you know, has the reception been pretty good?
And general reception is pretty good.
Yeah, mostly people in town just want to be good neighbors.
Certainly there are culture wars that get created to try to make us be afraid
(03:34):
of and turn on each other.
And certainly there are some from a smaller but loud segment of society that
wants to do what they can to have people come and push back against us.
Mainly the biggest would be in the drag show that was a little over a year ago.
But beyond that, folks mostly just kind of want to live and let live and let us be.
(03:55):
That's good. That's good. Yeah. I remember, you know, attending that drag show
and then some of the protesters outside.
It was a really a pretty small group of loud voices, you know.
Yeah, it was. Well, it was around 100, 120 of them, but there were about 180 of us. Oh, that many?
Yeah. It was a pretty large group, but there was some miscommunication with
the bank next door and they wound up being able to protest right along the edge
(04:18):
of our parking lot, which made things much more scary and much less safe.
But a lot of neo-Nazi groups and white supremacy groups and a lot of the typical
groups you would think of that are on the extreme right that need to act in hateful ways.
Ways. But our folks that came to support us, there were about 180 of us.
We formed a love choir and we kept everyone's backs turned to the protesters.
(04:42):
And every person that we vetted to come on our property, I said,
these are the rules. My party, my rules.
We are going to be nonviolent in the ways that we engage. No taunting, no engaging.
We don't want to give airtime to those that are speaking and acting in hateful ways.
We also don't want to push back against them because verbal Verbal violence
is still violence, and that's not our ethic.
So we will be nonviolent and respectful in our resistance.
(05:04):
And if you can't adhere to that,
I will have you trespassed off of our property just like anyone else.
So thankfully, everyone honored that, that ethic of we're going to be respectful
of all people. We can have differing views.
They have the right to protest, and people even have the right,
unfortunately, to act in hateful ways. But we will not return hate for hate.
That is awesome. And we were talking before the interview a little bit about
(05:28):
that whole approach in dealing with opposing opinions, et cetera.
And, you know, I like that mantra. Right. Definitely.
It's the way that I know to live. I was inspired as a young child by,
I remember from fourth grade on, when I first started learning more about Reverend Dr.
Martin Luther King and Gandhi and others, the idea of nonviolent resistance
(05:52):
has always appealed to me.
And as a gay woman in Northeast Texas, I certainly learned the benefit of being
able to stand firmly in my own truth, but in a way that didn't lash out at others.
And like many who've come from backgrounds where there was violence and trauma
in a family that struggled with brokenness and mental illness and other things,
(06:12):
I just learned what it was like to be on the receiving end of violence.
And I never wanted to be someone who returned that violence.
There's enough hatred and harm and brokenness in the world. I don't want to
add to it, even in the pursuit of justice.
And if I'm pursuing justice, I'm not a pacifist, but I'm a just war theorist.
And the criteria for a just war is that it needs to be a just cause,
(06:32):
that you go about pursuing in a just way or using just means.
And then the third criteria is that it must have a just outcome.
So to not go about using just means in whatever I do means that I become the
very thing that I'm protesting or working to stand up to. Right, right, right.
(06:54):
And we were talking earlier, too, a little bit about the difference between
people that do nothing but complain and then other people complain.
That actually offer solutions, right?
Yeah, it's the cheap seats to just sit and hurl insults. Yeah, well said.
Yeah, and make complaints, once I eventually got it out.
(07:14):
But to sit and just complain, and, you know, Brene Brown said it best when she
had her quote from, I think it was a Teddy Roosevelt quote about the arena,
that it's not the people who stand around and complain and critique,
it's the people that are actually involved in trying to make things happen.
And I read a blog post several years ago, I believe after the last administration,
in 2016, around that time, when I had someone reach out to me on social media
(07:39):
and say, why don't you speak out more against X, Y, and Z, this person, that issue?
And I said, I do, but I don't speak out against. I prefer to speak out far.
Anyone can speak out against something and someone, but at the end of the day,
I want to be more less about being against and more about standing up far,
what is right and what is good, because I think where we put our attention and
(08:00):
where we put our energy is what we energize.
So I can give airtime to the nastiness, I can vent and I complain.
But when I do that, I'm just adding to the muck and the mire and the noise that's
going on that has everyone so tired and exhausted and certainly we need safe places to vent.
But at the end of the day, if I'm just going to grouse, I then have used my
(08:22):
energy just to bitch and complain that I ordinarily could use instead to actually
do something to make a constructive difference.
And I would rather do that than just be about the bitching and complaining.
Well, it makes perfect sense. How do we get more people to adopt that attitude?
It's a good question. I think we model it. I think I think we call each other
forth and hold each other accountable to do that, especially in movements where
(08:46):
we're all working for the same things together.
I think we consistently give ourselves safe space to vent,
but maybe we do that more in private amongst ourselves to give ourselves space
to grieve, to deal with the trauma of what we're struggling with,
to deal with our frustrations and our anger and our hurt and our fears and our
triggers. We have safe space for that.
And when we go into the public sphere, I think that is when if we cannot just
(09:10):
add to the muck and the mire and the noise, but actually be a constructive, positive voice.
I think people stand up and listen when someone's speaking differently.
And whenever someone is just, again, doing the growl scene, that's not much
different these days, unfortunately. Right, right, right.
And we were talking earlier, too, about a situation, for example,
that you experienced just last night where, you know, somebody was shouting
(09:33):
over somebody and talking over talking over you and et cetera, et cetera.
And you kind of have a way of bringing them down and, OK, I'll listen to you
and then you listen to me, you know, without.
Butting heads. Right. The idea
is not to be against, but to invite someone to be their better selves.
But it's also, you know, we have a saying at the church, all people are welcome, all behavior is not.
(09:57):
Because humans in groups will always have, we bring our stuff with us.
We have our humanity that we bring with us. There will be conflicts,
there will be struggles.
That's expected and that's actually healthy when we feel safe enough to do that.
But we also have to feel safe enough and also held accountable enough to do
so in constructive ways.
And so when that's not happening, I think it's important for us to say,
(10:19):
hey, this is not okay. We're going to do this differently.
And thankfully, I'm surrounded by a tremendous tribe of people that's ever growing
that are willing to say, okay, we're going to do this differently.
Yeah, let's back up and have a redo.
And that's exactly what I got to experience with a friend last night.
And I will do that any day of the week.
(10:40):
Well, I did want to talk a little bit about your church.
Yeah, the United Church of Christ, we came out of the Reformed tradition.
So that means from the Martin Luther Reformation.
So we come from a similar stock as the Methodist and the Lutherans, etc.
We are a denomination that was a combination of four different denominations,
(11:01):
smaller denominations that joined together in 1957. 57.
And as we have grown, we're very prominent in the Midwest and Northeast and
a lot on the West Coast as well.
A lot of UCC churches in Hawaii, but we are very congregationalist in our polity,
meaning that the local church is the one that can discern for themselves where
(11:21):
they believe that God is calling them to be and how God is calling them to be.
But we do have national leaders, regional national leaders that are there to
support us and help us and to give us guidance and help organize us,
but we are a denomination that is probably about as far left and still be called
Christian in terms of our theological and political views.
(11:42):
And there are a lot of folks that don't think some of us are Christian because
we are so far, so progressive and open.
But we have UCC churches that are more conservative, more progressive.
Ours is one that's more progressive.
After Roe v. Wade was overturned, we voted to become a reproductive freedom congregation.
I mean, we advocate for the right of women and those who can bear children to
(12:03):
have equal access to make their own decisions to health care in whatever ways
they believe that they and their family believe that they need to pursue. So.
Yeah, pretty open hearted bunch of folks that just want everyone to be able
to have what they need. All right. Well, that's that's cool. I like that.
I like the sound of that. Have you ever considered running for office?
I have been asked too many times. I have considered and I I know that with running
(12:28):
for office, there is a need sometimes in order to be able to do the greater
good to compromise in more ways than I believe that I personally could without
having my toenails curl.
So I did not think that that's something that I wanted to do.
I much more prefer to use my work in other ways. Yeah.
So getting back to your church. Well, to be clear, I'm really grateful for the
(12:50):
progressive leaders that we do have that are willing to be in there,
like our new mayor pro tem Andre Campos,
who is an amazing man who wants to serve all citizens of the community and is
willing to work with people however it's necessary to try to make that happen.
And but at the end of the day is not going to compromise so far that he loses his principles.
So I think it is possible to be in politics and not compromise away one's soul.
(13:14):
But that much diplomacy that was needed, I just didn't think that I could go that far.
Sure, sure. And I think, well, just my personal opinion that a lot of politicians
do get into it for the right reasons, but end up getting corrupted along the way.
So, you know. Or getting so disillusioned or trying to do what they think is
right, but doing so in ways that use tactics that I don't think are appropriate.
(13:37):
Sure. And I think on the local level, they're more community oriented and less
corrupted in general, you know. Possibly.
Possibly. Okay. Well, yeah, that's true. I guess you never can tell.
Well, there is certainly the lobbying issue that gets into play that money does come first.
And then making deals and yeah, sure. But probably not so much on the local level.
(13:58):
You know, probably not as much. Not the high dollar numbers. Right.
So did you, as the church, are you doing services every Sunday?
Every Sunday, 10 a.m. Okay.
Okay. And then special events all throughout the month.
We do Theology on Tap the third Sunday of the month where it's grab a beer or
adult beverage or any beverage of your choice.
(14:19):
We have many, many in our community that are sober.
And so we honor that as well. make safe space for them, but grab a beverage
and kick back and ask the pastor questions.
But it goes not just to me, it goes to the whole group. We'll cover different
topics around progressive issues, LGBTQ issues in the Bible.
We've talked about common sense gun safety.
(14:41):
We've talked about reproductive issues.
We've talked about just about immigration.
We talked about every topic under the sun, and then we'll open it up for anyone to ask a question.
So recently, Recently, someone said they wanted to talk about sex because so
many of their friends and neighbors and family members who were people of faith
were hesitant to talk openly about sexuality.
And I used to teach sex ed, so I can say all the words without getting embarrassed.
(15:05):
And so we had a great conversation, and I was thrilled to hear everyone chiming
in with their questions and their comments and how they approach things.
It was a very open, loving, healthy conversation with a lot of humor as well.
So it was a great day. So we do that.
We do a game night where we try to bring in others in the progressive community
just to make safe space so people know that they are not alone in this town
(15:29):
and to build deeper relationships and community.
So we do a lot with working with First Footing and Connections and New Braunfels
Homeless Coalition and have worked with the food banks.
We're working now with the pilot test to see if we can get enough gardens to
grow in the back of our property because we have a huge quarter acre at the
back of our property that's not being used. And we don't talk about sin and
(15:51):
judgment and heaven and hell at our church.
We don't talk about sin and judgment in that way. But if I were going to use
the word sin, it would be for a faith community to have facilities and property
that it wasn't using for the betterment of others.
So I want to make good use of that property behind our space.
Yeah, that's also an interesting distinction, too, when you talk about belief
in God and different factions of religion. and whether I was brought up believing
(16:17):
that God was all-loving, where...
A lot of other faiths are, you know, God-fearing, you know, and I just think
that's counterproductive, you know.
Well, I would say maybe other denominations. I don't know that many other faiths
outside of Christianity tend to have as much of God-fearing in them.
Yeah, you're right, the denominations.
Right, but denominations, yes. There are certainly, of our more conservative
siblings, that do have a belief in a God that needs to be feared and the God
(16:40):
of justice and the God of all and wonder.
And my reading of scripture, my understanding of God,
my beliefs about Jesus are that Jesus was teaching that the kingdom of God,
not kingdom of dominance, but the kingdom of God lives inside of you and that
we are all equally children of the divine and deserve to be treated as such. Sure.
As far as religion then and Christianity, and we talked earlier before,
(17:05):
before recording about Christian nationalism.
Yeah. Grown. Yeah. Yeah, that'll make this pastor cups.
Okay, we talked about the history of how some of the right wing went,
you know, where it began, the moral majority and all that, you know,
and I think that's pretty interesting history.
And a lot of people probably don't realize where it all began.
(17:26):
In my mind, you know, I'm thinking about Newt Gingrich, you know,
and then it kind of that's in my mind, that's kind of where.
Yeah, it's been in process for many decades. And some of us had the front row
seat of it. I was a Northeast Texas Southern Baptist, but they were the Jimmy
Carter Southern Baptist back in the day.
Yeah, you were saying it goes all the way back to the 50s. Yes, definitely.
(17:47):
After the, well, if you follow people like Heather Cox Richardson and other
professors of political history who talk about the background of where some of the
things we're facing currently came from, they point back to the fact that business
has sought to deregulate itself or to have the government get out of regulating
business for centuries.
But as anytime we humans have an opportunity to get what we want by scaring
(18:13):
others, it seems like we humans tend to do that.
And after Brown v. Board of Education, when a lot of people were fired up around
issues of race, we started seeing a huge trend toward trying to make people
afraid of persons of color.
And we saw people being mobilized to be afraid of immigrants.
We saw groups trying to make people afraid of LGBTQIA plus persons.
(18:36):
Anytime there's an excuse to scare people, to rile them up, to be against each
other, and to whip up dollars and whip up votes, it seems that there are some
that are convinced that that's the best tactic to use.
I think a lot of what's happened in the last several decades has been the co-opting
of religion. And I personally am against that.
I think Christian nationalism is not Christian. No, absolutely not.
(18:59):
And, you know, that ties in with the reason, one of the main reasons for the
foundation of this country was not to be dictated by a specific religion, right? Exactly.
And so, you know, whatever happened to the separation of church and state? Exactly. Yeah.
Oftentimes there will be people in the public sphere who are very anti-religion.
(19:21):
And when they first meet me, one of the things that they'll do is ask in a challenging
way, expecting me to get defensive and say, well, do you believe in the separation of church and state?
Do you believe that churches should pay taxes? And they're surprised when I
say, actually, yes, yes, I do believe churches should pay taxes.
Unless we can prove that we are spending X amount of our resources to try to
(19:41):
do good works in the community like other nonprofits.
Then I believe if we cannot prove that we are doing that, then we deserve to
pay. We should be paying our fair share.
Yeah, absolutely. So that pushes us to either be using our resources to do good
like a nonprofit would, or to if we're just...
Making our own country club to make ourselves feel better, to come in and have
(20:02):
as an exclusive place, then yeah, I think we should be paying to help out the rest of society.
And so many mega churches, you know, and their big grift, if you will.
Yeah. I mean, there's some definitely anything good can come from anything,
I believe. No person, no place, no organization is one thing.
And so, I mean, you've heard me sharing earlier, I'm much more concerned with
(20:24):
talking about being for things rather than against things.
So yeah, Yeah, certainly there are some megachurches that have done some amazing
things and do some amazing things.
And there are some times when practices have been incredibly,
just like any other organization, where groups of people can become corrupt
and act in such ways that do great harm to people.
So we certainly have a lot of people these days that are recovering from or
(20:46):
living with or dealing with or even experiencing religious trauma from religious
abuse, which I think is quite prevalent these days, especially with Christian
nationalism. Sure, sure.
(21:25):
Yeah. I'm more about calling us forth to stop doing that crap. Well said.
Yeah, I like it said in layman's terms like that. Okay, so you've got a book that you published.
Hospice Whispers, Stories of Life, Hospice Whispers Series, Book One,
which is in paperback and available on Kindle, right? Also the audio book.
(21:49):
Yeah. Tell me a little bit about that. Yeah. The training curriculum that I've
used when I teach and train and consult for 10 years or 15 years now,
but I told stories in the midst of doing the trainings.
It was a spoonful of sugar to help the medicine go down.
Stories of things I had done well and things I had completely screwed up in
(22:09):
my work, both in early days as a therapist and then working in chaplaincy.
And as I shared stories, I mean, the story, the idea behind the book was to
get the stories out there to better help people who don't understand hospice
and are afraid of it, to better understand it and be willing to bring hospice in sooner.
We really got tired in the industry of hearing people say, oh my goodness,
(22:31):
this hospice experience was so wonderful.
If only we had known when dad died, or if only we had not waited to bring grandma
and services so late, we could have so much more benefited from the services
y'all had to provide, but we just didn't understand what hospice was and wasn't,
and we were afraid of it, and we avoided it.
So the stories were designed to show people what the end of life could look
like, that death is a nanosecond.
(22:53):
But there's all this life that happens up until that nanosecond of death and
living that can happen, that hospice can come in and help make so much more
possible by providing pain management and symptom relief,
providing psychosocial spiritual support for the patient and for the family.
And so the more hospice can be involved longer, the better off it can be for
(23:17):
the patient and the family.
So that was one goal of it. It was also designed to be a bit of a training manual
for volunteers and hospice and palliative care staff.
And then it turned out to be so much more. A lot of people said the stories
in the book helped them be able to grieve their own process, their own journey.
So that's why the Grief Workbook came to be, is a series of questions related
(23:43):
to the stories in the book to help people process through using the stories
to process through their own experiences.
But I was really touched and helped and humbled when I would receive comments
from people saying, I just bought five copies for each of my adult children,
because this isn't just a book about healthcare.
This is a book about how to just be a good human and how to be present with other people.
(24:06):
I also had family, one person in particular who said, I have everyone who's
been telling me that I'm grieving wrong, that it's been five years after the
death of my child and that I should be over it by now.
And when I read your book and you talked about some of the things we do and
don't say to people who are suffering and you talked about how we get to find
(24:29):
our own journey and find our own grief process.
And she said, it just gave me this openness and this freedom that I had not
had. So I'm grateful for the help that it's been able to be to people.
Well, that's so true. It's such a hard topic to approach for a lot of people,
you know, and grief is different for everybody, really.
And so there's no right or wrong way. And exactly.
(24:52):
There's really not. I mean, so long as it's not hurting yourself or someone
else, people need to be allowed to grieve as they need to grieve and take the
time that they need to do so.
So many of us right now are walking around with
of unresolved grief and trauma from the pandemic and we don't realize it. Oh yeah.
And so many are walking around feeling like a crispy critter,
not fit for human consumption.
(25:12):
I used to do, especially during the pandemic, I did a lot of Facebook live videos
since traveling to speak around the country wasn't as much possible in the first
year and a half to two years.
So I did a lot of my, put a lot of my content out on social media through videos
or Facebook live videos, talking about all my content, but breaking it up into
smaller segments and And sharing with people what I thought would be helpful for them.
(25:34):
So that instead of doing this just for professional caregivers,
it was resilience for the average bear.
The things that I teach, how they could be, how daily lay people not in health
care or professional caregiving could make access of those tools to help them
through what we were all facing.
And so I was grateful for that. But recently did another Facebook Live video.
It just felt like the time to say that if you're feeling like a crispy critter
(25:56):
not fit for human consumption,
if you are feeling like you can't, you don't have two brain cells to rub together,
if you're forgetfulness, if you're forgetful, if you're snarky,
if you don't feel like you have the energy to do the things that you know to
do that would make you feel better or get better things done.
If you're just struggling and don't feel like you can get off the couch,
to just be especially gentle with yourselves and to be gentle with each other.
(26:18):
Because when we go through times of stress and distress.
When we are recovering from grief and trauma, the research showed after SARS-1 in 2003,
2004, that the immediate burnout rates for frontline healthcare workers did
not occur immediately after or even during the first pandemic back then in 2003, 2004.
(26:40):
The peak burnout rates didn't occur until 18 to 36 months after the pandemic was over.
Because we don't process trauma when we're going through it. We are in survival mode.
After the trauma is over, that is when we can begin to relax.
And as we try to get back into our lives, we think, woohoo, everything's better
(27:00):
now. But then we find that we're struggling and we don't know why.
And it's because that is when our brains can finally start to process what we went through back then.
And so a lot of people walking around with grief and trauma and just don't realize it right now.
And so just be extra gentle and extra slow, because when we're going When we're
at rest, our brain consumes 37% to 42% of our body's resources.
(27:25):
Something like that. But when we are in times of distress, the brain will consume
93% of our body's resources.
So even though we haven't run a marathon, our brain, the supercomputer of our
brain, trying to process the grief, process whatever it is that we're facing,
and trying to come to terms with what we've previously faced,
(27:45):
our brain will suck all the resources of blood glucose and oxygen and nutrients
from the rest of our bodies.
So it'll feel like our bodies are as depleted as they would have been if we'd
run a marathon, even if we've only walked from the bedroom to the bathroom to
the couch and gone, yep, I'm done for the day. I don't have anything else.
I don't have anything left in me.
So just telling people that and naming that for people, I was stunned by the
(28:08):
number of responses of people saying, thank you. I needed to hear this.
Thank you for validating and affirming that I'm not crazy. I'm not broken,
that there's nothing wrong with me, that my brain and my body are doing exactly
what they're supposed to do to take care of me. right now.
I think just naming and normalizing that for each other helps people to relax
and not be so hard or harsh on themselves or each other.
(28:31):
And just naming it, it gives that relaxation of, okay, really,
I'm not crazy and I'm not an idiot and I don't suck. And you're not alone.
Exactly. I think that makes a huge difference for folks. Yeah, I think you're right.
And, you know, after the pandemic, it affected so many people,
such a large portion of the population compared to, say, you know,
emergency workers that have and doctors.
(28:53):
That have to kind of learn to compartmentalize, you know, and build a wall where
they, okay, I can be a professional, but then. Yeah. But even the pandemic.
And it's different for them, you know. Right. But yes. And hopefully care professional
caregivers have a few more tools.
But during this, so I was, I teach for the University of Maryland.
I helped start their master's of science in palliative care.
(29:14):
And I had students, we have students from all over the world from all letters
of the alphabet working in healthcare.
And I had students, nurses and physicians that were on the border of Taiwan
and China and were testing who got to come in and got to come out because there was a strange virus.
And that was in the late fall of 2019.
So some of us had a bit of a head start in realizing that the pandemic was coming our direction.
(29:39):
So we started preparing ourselves to help our colleagues and the people that
we trained and taught to be able to get ready because the most seasoned, healthy,
strong, emotionally mature professionals, it just about broke them because it
was the moral distress, the moral injury of the moral distress of I have,
(30:01):
there's so much suffering and I can't get to all of it.
Or the moral injury of we know that we don't leave people to let them die alone
without letting their families come see them.
And yet we had to for a while because letting people come into a skilled nursing
facility, for instance, to see their spouse or their loved one was just not
safe because of the risk of spreading the virus to so many others.
(30:23):
We just didn't know. Exactly. And dealing with death after death after death. That was hard enough.
The work I was doing, I was doing two and three hundred trauma debriefs a day
with frontline COVID workers.
And during the pandemic and it, I was doing everything I can,
could to help support them, give them space to offload their grief and trauma,
(30:43):
practice their own resilience and self-care, boost themselves back up and then
go back in, in a way that cared for themselves.
But you also have to remember, they were humans going through the pandemic too.
They had their own loved ones in facilities. They had their own children working
by computer trying to do school from home.
They had their own fears about, am I bringing the virus home to my children
(31:08):
because I've been out and about and working in health care?
And so they had the personal grief and trauma they were experiencing,
but then they had the professional as well. And that was hard enough on health care staff.
But then when the culture war around vaccination started and physicians and
nurses were trying to speak at school boards to encourage them to maintain masking
(31:32):
and safety protocols and vaccinations and people were publishing their addresses.
And so folks were coming.
They would come out to the school board meetings to have people having stabbed
their tires to deflate them.
They would have people posting their address and threatening them and their family.
The nastiness around it. They had people screaming at them for ivermectin and
(31:53):
drugs that were not proven to work and sometimes some cases not proven not to work.
The lack of information, there's the culture war that got manipulated around
the pandemic and people not doing the things that they knew to do to take care
of themselves and each other properly.
When the Delta variant hit about a year and a half into the pandemic.
(32:14):
So the summer of that would have been, let's see, it would have been summer
of 2021, when that variant hit and it was preventable because of enough people who'd been vaccinated,
we would not have had that surge, was when that one really took a lot of healthcare
professionals to their knees because we trust our fellow humans to do what's
right, to take care of us, to take care of each other.
(32:35):
And if they know that they're doing something that's harming someone else,
or if they know that they could do something to help someone else, they'd be willing.
And when folks were not willing to vaccinate and folks fought so hard against
that, and suddenly the deaths that were happening, the illnesses that were happening,
the overwhelm of healthcare staff and hospitals that were happening,
the threats to their own lives, when all of that happened, that one really took
(32:58):
people out because it wasn't just a pandemic.
It was now a culture war that was causing a problem them that could have been prevented.
And now I just read the other day talking about measles and even polio making
a comeback because, you know, ballooned into this whole anti-vax of any kind
that there's a lot of that going on right now.
And that's just as silly, you know, I mean, we thought we put some of these
(33:21):
things to bed pretty much permanently and now it's going to make a comeback.
We humans keep finding ways to bring back some of our old fights,
just wearing in different faces.
So we get scared. What's the expression about, you know, learn history or else
you're doomed to repeat it. Exactly.
And so when we get scared enough or we allow others to manipulate us to be afraid
of each other or to be afraid around certain things that are given misinformation.
(33:44):
It's amazing how easily we can be twisted and manipulated to fight against each
other and to fight against our own best interest.
Yeah. Fight against your own best interest.
There's quite a few examples of that in the world today. That's for sure.
I was going to say, you know, you were talking about the stress on health care
workers. And of course, Donna was a nurse during that time. Right.
That's right. I forgot that you were working during the pandemic.
(34:06):
A women's clinic. It wasn't a life or death situations, but,
you know, the stress that it put on the doctors and getting patients to cooperate,
you know, when they were coming into the office and you had to change protocol and all that.
Yeah, that was off mic. So I don't know if you could really hear that.
But you were saying that if patients had COVID and they were pregnant.
Or if they would quarantine before they came in to deliver to decrease the risk
(34:30):
of having COVID when they gave birth to their child.
Okay. So they couldn't take the baby home.
After delivery, that must have been a shock. It was, especially when they had
to hand the baby over to grandma or auntie or whomever, you know,
someone else that could take and take care of this baby that they were not expecting
to have to take care of a newborn. Yeah, yeah.
(34:51):
We've talked about that a lot. You know, you're working for the women's clinic
and how many parents, especially in South Texas, you know, would come and say,
oh, my daughter's not, you know, she's not active.
She's not sexually active. And, you know, and they don't want to,
they deny it, even though it's happening, don't want to see it or whatever it is.
And then, you know, they don't want to teach sex education or prevention,
(35:16):
you know, pregnancy prevention, abstinence. Yeah. Yeah.
And, you know, and forget about birth control. We don't want to,
we don't want to mention birth control. Part of my doctoral education and research
was around adolescent sexuality and sexuality and spirituality and spirituality and health.
But with adolescent sexuality, the data overwhelmingly shows that if you provide
(35:38):
access to comprehensive sexuality education and access to contraception,
not only does it not encourage kids to have sex,
it actually delays the onset of first intercourse.
They wait longer to have sex because you've given them the tools and the resources
and the know-how and the ability to talk comfortably with their potential partners
(36:00):
so that instead of falling into something and feeling coerced,
they're able to use the words and have the conversation to make more reasonable
decisions for themselves that helps them make smarter decisions for themselves
and makes them wait longer.
And then when they do actually engage in sexual activities.
Then they are significantly more likely to use contraception,
(36:23):
and it significantly decreases the prevalence of HIV, AIDS, other STDs,
and unplanned pregnancies. Yeah.
Overwhelmingly, it's shown that abstinence-only education doesn't work.
My professor at the time got a grant through a state organization,
and she did this huge research campaign about assessing the efficacy of the
(36:47):
different forms of sexuality education, primarily abstinence-only education.
And when overwhelmingly the data showed that it did not work and that comprehensive
sexuality education and access to contraception did,
it was quietly put into a drawer because they knew that the politicians wouldn't like it.
(37:07):
That's crazy. I mean, yeah, comprehensive education, you know,
will create more responsible individuals when it comes to sexuality for sure.
Right. And imagine us being able to be responsible for ourselves by having access
to the information and the tools that we need. Yeah.
Now, wait a minute. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that one of the main
credos of the Republican Party is people being responsible for themselves.
(37:31):
Sex when it comes to sex or, yeah, something they want.
But, you know, that one of the things I always learned, you know,
was you're responsible to be responsible.
So, OK, so, Carla, there was a city council meeting in the city of New Braunfels recently. Thank you.
But it was all about the city's Pride Month celebration, correct?
(37:53):
Yes, there was a Mayor Pro Tem André Campos had put out a proclamation honoring
Pride Month, which is often what happens in the city and most cities do to acknowledge
Pride Month during the month of June.
And but there so he and Councilmember Lee Edwards and Councilmember April Ryan,
all three came to the Pride Festival a couple of weeks ago and read that proclamation
(38:18):
as a sign of solidarity and unity and support for the LGBTQIA plus community and our allies.
And yeah, there were some we got word that there were going to be some folks
at the council meeting who were going to come and try to chastise those council
members for their support. Okay, so was the entire council in favor of the celebration?
No, not all. But the majority? Not all. I don't know if they have a majority.
(38:42):
But there were these three council members in particular who were being supportive.
And so when we heard that there were some folks that were going to come and
try to chastise them and call them out for being supportive of the queer community.
Basically harass them? Yeah, and so we decided that there were a,
we wanted to provide a counterpoint and let people know that not one of them
(39:03):
in particular, a couple of them claimed to be coming from a faith perspective.
But the ways that they speak are quite hostile and aggressive and quite hateful
in the ways that they speak to others and could even be traumatizing for folks
religiously because of the way they use scripture and God.
So we decided that it would be important for us to show an alternative Christian
(39:23):
voice or an alternative voice of beliefs and people of goodwill. So we had 11 clergy.
We had a room full of people that
we packed the chamber to just provide one statement that was respectful and
positive and supportive and thanking those who stood with the LGBTQIA plus community
(39:43):
and asking for others to join them about the need for that we are stronger as
a community when we use the rich diversity of all.
All of our members and make certain that no one feels safe and unafraid,
that no one feels unafraid and that everyone feels safe.
So about issues of justice and equality and inclusion and just making certain
that no one needs to stand alone.
(40:04):
So we read that one statement and had the 11 of us clergy that were there that
stood behind it and then asked for those in the room who were there to stand with us to do so.
And almost the entire room in that chamber stood up and cheered and applauded
to lend their support, which was pretty beautiful.
A lot of folks like to rail against what they don't like or to rail it against
(40:27):
the people that they think are doing things that are hurtful and harmful.
And as I said earlier, I would much rather spend my energy not griping and complaining
about them, not giving them airtime and not returning hate for hate,
but instead seeing what we can do to bring about what is positive and constructive.
Because if so many of us, like we did at that council meeting,
come from different segments different groups, even different backgrounds and
(40:51):
views and beliefs, but have the things that we do agree on, which is love and
acceptance and unity and safety and equal rights,
then we can be incredibly powerful.
And when we feel that strong, that safe, and that supported,
we don't need to lash out against anyone else because we feel solid enough to
be able to just be without being afraid, without being angry.
(41:14):
I love what Brene Brown says, don't puff up, don't get small,
just stand in your own sacred ground.
And when we stand together, honoring the values that we do agree on.
We don't need to lash out. We don't need to run away. We can just stand firmly
and be and support what we believe is good and right.
So I was really grateful for everyone showing up and honoring that ethic last
(41:34):
night at the council meeting and being professional and dignified and respectful,
but standing and cheering clearly for what they thought was right. Well said. Well said.
Be careful who you hate. It might be someone you love.
Exactly. The number of people who get up in arms about certain issues,
whether it's LGBTQA plus issues or anything, far too often forget that people
(41:57):
that they love and care about are people who hold those differences.
And at the end of the day, when we can just be with people as they are where
they are and accept them as they are, then I believe that does a lot more good
in the world than anything else.
Without a doubt. You got anything else going on with the church?
Any events coming up? Not certain about our schedule for Theology on Tap and
(42:19):
Game Night and other events during July and August because this pastor's taking
a few weeks off during that time.
Is there a website or place where people can just kind of stay on top of what events you have?
I would follow us on Facebook. Right now we're in the process of trying to transition
our website to a new platform, so it is way out of date.
But if folks follow us on social media, Faith Church New Braunfels,
(42:42):
then they can certainly keep up with everything that we are doing there.
Or we try to advertise things there pretty well. Okay, excellent.
You said you're going on vacation and I know you're an avid hiker and biker.
Mountain biker. Mountain biker. And wow, that's a...
Sounds like a lot of fun. It is a blast. And I am so tired right now.
(43:02):
I don't know that I could get my butt up the mountain, but I will certainly
be trying to find a way to hop in the car with the dog and the tent and the
bikes and hiking poles and go see what mountain I can find to hang out in,
even if I just put my butt on a rock and rejuice and recuperate because we've had a lot going on.
We just had our third annual Interfaith Pride worship service.
(43:22):
And attendance continues to be beautiful at those. And we have another faith
community, another church in town that has, they're talking to their council,
so I can't name the church just yet, but they're talking about hosting it this next year.
And we already have a speaker lined up. We're pretty sure we have the musical
entertainment lined up. So we are way ahead for next year, thankfully.
(43:43):
But it's been a busy season for us. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, we're a little tired. And the extroverted St.
Bernard puppy Aries pastor tends to get my church into a lot of stuff.
And there comes a point when we're all tired and need to just have happy hours
and game nights and sit around and relax a little bit. So that's what we're
doing the rest of the summer.
(44:04):
Is there any particular place that you like to go? Do your hiking,
your outdoor activities?
I'm a... Head for the mountains? Are you a mountains or a beach person?
I mean, I love the beach. I did my open water dive certification at Cozumel.
So the fact that Southwest flies nonstop from Austin now is pretty cool,
(44:24):
especially since I have a crap ton of travel miles through Southwest from all
my business travels that I used to do.
But I'm definitely more of a mountain girl when I have the opportunity.
If I'm not going to go straight to the ocean and get under the water and dive
or hang in a hammock and drink rum and nap and then go snorkel and dive, but really my...
(44:46):
First choice is to go get into the mountains. So Colorado, Montana, Wyoming.
Oh, yeah. A lot in Utah, but I have my favorite haunts in Colorado, especially.
But when I can get to the Grand Tetons, I do because I am in love with that place.
Have an invitation to come to a pulpit swap with a church in Washington,
off the coast of Washington, outside of a place called Fox Island.
(45:07):
So a UCC church there that wants to do a pulpit swap. And I'm like,
sure, we could talk about that.
So I don't know exactly what I'm going to do. But definitely getting out in
the mountains, being able to see the night sky and just sit and breathe,
but mostly just being unplugged so that I can practice what I teach of just
being present with myself and letting my neurochemistry calm down and relax
(45:31):
to just be so that when I come back,
I can be fully present for people and not scattered all over the place.
Well, it sounds pretty active. I've got. I wanted to ask, I heard a rumor that
you teach your dance teacher in addition to everything else. Yes.
I was being asked that there was a rumor that I'm a dance teacher. Yes.
Oh, you're right. I did hear that myself. I've taught country western dance for 30 years.
(45:54):
They don't allow you outside of East Texas. They don't let you graduate in Northeast
Texas unless you know how to two-step.
I've had people try to teach me numerous times. Oh, you're about to throw down
the gauntlet, and I'm going to tell you. You've heard of two left feet.
I think I have three. 30 years.
In 30 years, I have never had anyone I could not teach.
(46:14):
And I taught at A&M where I had electrical engineers who were so in their freaking
heads with no sense of their bodies.
Although one of my congregants said, she said, I'm offended.
I'm an engineer and I dance and I'm a dancer. But so there are exceptions.
But no, I when I taught at A&M, I had a lot of folks that were convinced they
could never learn how to dance. And since then, in 30 years,
(46:35):
I've never had anybody that I could not teach.
Most folks' way of getting instruction in how to dance, country dance,
is in a dark, crowded, loud bar with a lot of alcohol involved.
Someone saying, here, do this.
And then when they can't do this, they think they can't dance.
But when it's quiet and the lights are on and you can hear each other and someone
(46:58):
breaks it down and says, we're going to take a step here, here,
here, and here. And then people go, wait, that's it?
Yep, that's it. So come Saturday night.
And I promise you, I promise you, heck, before we leave here in 10 minutes,
I will have you two-stepping. So two-step, polka, watch, jitterbug.
Yeah, it's a lot of fun. I don't know. That song, the Genesis song,
(47:19):
I Can't Dance, was written for me.
All right. Gauntlet's thrown down. I'm telling you, I have a perfect record.
And it will not. It will not be squashed. I'll take you to task there.
All right. All right. Well, so Carla, I want to thank you for spending so much time.
Again, you have a website so people can find out more about you and about your
book and et cetera, et cetera.
(47:41):
Excellent. Also not very well updated, but there's a lot of good information
there, along with some videos and access to some of the things that I teach.
Okay. CarlaCheatham.com.
CarlaCheatham.com spelled C-H-E-A-T-H-A-M. H-A, don't forget the H.
Cheat on a test and ham on a website. If you ever listen to Click and Clack.
Yep. If you ever listened to, or like Cheatham Street Warehouse.
(48:02):
Yeah, there you go. If you ever listened to Click and Clack Car Talk on NPR
back in the day, they would always, almost always end their broadcast by saying
they would like to thank their lawyers from the law firm of Dewey,
Cheatham, and Howe. Dewey, Cheatham, and Howe, yes.
And growing up, I would have people ask me if my daddy worked for the law firm
of Dewey, Cheatham, and Howe.
And I was already enough of a little feminist. I'd stamp my little redheaded
(48:23):
foot and go, no, but my mama does, even though she wasn't a lawyer.
But, you know, I just had to push back.
Excellent. Excellent. All right. Well, thanks again, Carla.
And we'll be looking for you over at the Church of New Braunfels.
And we can find out more. And don't forget about your book, Hospice Whispers, Stories of Life.
(48:43):
Book one, the Hospice Whispers series. Book one is out. Is there book two?
Book two is the Grief Work book, Sharing Our Stories. So both are available.
Both are available, certainly. And you can find them on Amazon.
Yes. Although the authors always prefer that you get them straight from the
author. So there's on the website, there's the author signed copies,
which you'll get directly from me because through if you need to get them through
(49:06):
Amazon, no harm, no foul.
But just know that when Amazon sells them, they get about 90 percent of the profits.
So anything you can do to buy directly from artists, musicians, authors, what have you.
It's a good, easy way to get things out there and make it more available to people.
But I definitely always prefer to hand them to them myself and get most to get
more of the profit to help pay the bills.
(49:27):
Right on. I hear you. All right. Well, thanks a lot, Carla. Thank you very much.
(49:59):
Music.
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