The Catholic

Episode Transcript
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(00:12):
Hi, hello, welcome to What Lies Buried, where we dive into the real and raw
stories of those who have experienced emotional abuse.
I'm your host, Carly Latham. Each week, we'll hear stories of real abuse told by real survivors.
This show is a safe space for abuse survivors to share their stories.

(00:34):
My guests will always be able to choose to remain anonymous.
There will be no names or locations, but a chance to have your voice heard because
buried beneath all the lies is the truth waiting to be uncovered.
Please note before beginning that I am not a professional.
I do not have a fancy degree to back me up. Just a series of unfortunate experiences.

(01:00):
This podcast is intended for mature audiences only.
We will be discussing themes of abuse, which may be triggering for some listeners.
Please proceed with caution.
Hello and welcome back to What Lies Buried.

(01:20):
Last week, you heard a roundtable discussion about the impact that growing up
in highly religious environments can have on people who are more susceptible
to these emotionally abusive relationships.
And this week, we are following up with one of my guests, Tanya.

(01:42):
Hi. Hey, Carly. Thank you for coming on and being willing to go a little more
in-depth into your story.
There's several parts that I am fascinated by, but if you are comfortable with
it, I'd We'd love to know what the early stages of your relationship were like.

(02:02):
Again, I guess a little bit have to paint a picture of where we were.
So it doesn't, I mean, it'll still
sound weird, but at least you have some backgrounds for the weirdness.
So we met in college and it wasn't your typical college experience by any stretch
of the imagination because we met at an exceptionally Catholic university,

(02:23):
Franciscan University of Steubenville.
And while there's a lot of good to say about the school there's also a lot left
to be desired i guess so the culture there is just very different like i said hyper religious but.
The way that, like, literally everything is framed around one's vocation.

(02:47):
And I, like, I know that in, like, the world, we use that term to mean,
like, you know, any, like, trade or whatever.
But in the Catholic Church, at least, it's used to describe if you are married,
religious life, a priest, you know, monk, etc. Oh, okay. Okay.
Yeah. So it's, I mean, another, the best term for it is religious vocation,

(03:10):
but every single thing there is centered around you finding your vocation,
what God has explicitly called you for,
which in and of itself creates a lot of anxiety for 18, 19 year old kids who
have no worldly experience.
And they're trying to make a lifetime commitment to religious life or,
you know, have having never had sex or even kissed anyone.

(03:33):
Most of the, you know, most of these kids, like they, they had no real world
experience, no relationship experience beyond, you know, that with their parents,
which is probably also weird given the culture of the university.
So anyway, so that being said, I, I've known since I was, you know,
six years old that I wanted to be a mom and a wife and in some capacity.

(03:55):
And so anyway i
went to that school like pursuing a
degree in theology and catholic education but it
very very quickly became my mrs degree
i mean that was i was gunning for that and
my ex my now ex-husband at
the time he was in the pre-theology pre-theologian program

(04:18):
which basically is like the beginning or the
pre stages to seminary so he was gonna be a priest which Catholic priests they
don't get married they don't have families la la la so the first couple of years
of college that's where he was I was kind of dating you whatever trying to find
you know who God had called me to be with and so then going into.

(04:42):
Going into my junior year, I think. Yeah. And he was a year younger than me.
We met, there were some mutual friends. We had the same summer job there at
the university and kind of kicked it off.
At the time, our relationship was fun and innocent and, you know,
like just, you know, young love type of stuff, but heavily influenced by the university.

(05:03):
We did all of our, in the Catholic church, when you get married,
you have to take, you have to be engaged for a minimum of six months.
And during that time, yeah, during that time, you have to take marriage preparation
classes through the church.
So it has to be done. And there are topics like handling marital conflict,

(05:23):
fertility, but you really only dedicate like an hour to each of those monstrous topics.
I don't really understand how helpful it's really supposed to be.
But anyway, so we're going through the university, like we went through the
university program, we also had to do what is called prepare for natural family planning.
When we started dating, all was well.

(05:44):
I was absolutely the broken one in our relationship.
I had entered the university not a virgin.
I lived with a boyfriend before.
My home life wasn't awesome, so it was a very convenient escape.
I smoked like a pack a day. I bleached my hair so it looked good.

(06:06):
It didn't look trashy, I thought.
And I drove a Mustang with a sunroof.
So to the rest of the university, I looked very rebellious and whatnot.
And so it seemed like my reputation among the guys was that I was one to be
tamed, if that made sense.

(06:26):
And among the girls, I did have some really wonderful friends, don't get me wrong.
But among the females in general, I was seen as a threat and intimidating.
So it just, it was this, I don't know, weird, it caused like these weird self-esteem
issues within myself that I didn't expect.
And so this, through those first couple of years at the university and that

(06:51):
being the way people treated me.
And you know my already deep-seated desire to be a wife
and mother i felt so deeply like
damaged good that no one was gonna that no one was gonna want to have anything
to do with me and carly when i look back at my like like i look back at pictures
of myself at that time and now that i have a much clearer and more healthy grasp

(07:13):
on who i am as a person i look back i'm like baby there was nothing wrong with you.
Like, it just breaks my heart to look back at my, you know, late teens,
early twenties, Tanya and the situations that I put myself in.
And, you know, namely this marriage that in reality never really should have

(07:33):
been because he, he had a twinge of a savior complex and I needed to be saved.
And I was very desperate to get married. I was going into my senior year.
And when I was going into my junior year, when we were married, not married,
when we first started dating and then we did get engaged but
i was just like sweating it out like are
we gonna are we gonna get engaged are we gonna get married before i leave here what

(07:55):
am i gonna do if i have to leave here and i'm not married like no one
in the catholic world is going to want anything to do with me you
know with now these new standards that i've adopted through
you know from my time at the university as well
as you know me being so deeply flawed
and and broken and lots of trauma baggage also
so that that didn't help so anyway

(08:19):
so then we get married and we did natural family planning which
is no absolutely no birth control whatsoever you have to use it I hate referring
like referring to it as the rhythm method because it is a little more scientific
than that but only a little so it was sold to us as being 99.9 effective if used correctly

(08:40):
and that if used correctly is put on the right because you have to track your cycles.
Not not just like oh i started around this date no you have to track your cycle
to a t you have to know when you're to a t yes exactly you have to know exactly
when you're ovulating with my in
my case i had hyper fertility so i it was so hard to tell i mean honestly of

(09:06):
my i've have four living children and I miscarried four.
One of those was a set of twins. So I've had seven pregnancies and I only planned the first two.
So you were just basically back to back to back to back pregnant then. And yeah. Yeah. Okay.
So that, that definitely played a major role in the tension in our marriage

(09:26):
and, but it's supposed to, you know, be great for communication and la la la.
But you know, when you go two, three months with hyper fertility signs and no
real way to pinpoint it and or constantly getting pregnant and miscarrying.
And I almost died a few times because of that.
That was just, that was, you know, incredibly hard. So we had all of that starting
our marriage, but overall, like.

(09:48):
It makes me really, it makes me really sad sometimes to reflect on the beginning
of our marriage because it really all, all bullshit and, you know,
trauma and everything aside, we, like we were so madly in love in the beginning.
And I remember the positive pregnancy test very shortly.
I mean, we were married two weeks and I got the positive pregnancy test.

(10:09):
I mean, we wasted no time, nine months and three, yeah, nine months and three days later.
We had our daughter from our wedding date yeah so we
were so no i guess technically we're married for a month but when
i found out so anyway but and
so just you know that was a very beautiful moment like for the first two or

(10:30):
three months of that we were married we had a handful of songs that we really
loved that we played at our wedding that we would dance to in the kitchen because
we had no you know we really had nothing else we we dvd player and a small shitty
tv you know in a one bedroom apartment.
And I really genuinely sure there were probably some red, red flags in our dating.

(10:51):
My perspective on that where the red flags were me.
I had, I did have some anger issues. I had some baggage, you know,
I did have, and he was just calm, cool, and collected all the time.
And he was, he was my steady. He was my rock.
And, you know, we go on to have more kids. I worked in the church.
He worked for the church for a time. We were always poor, but I never,

(11:11):
I never felt like that meant you know we at least
had each other we had our health and we were having healthy babies we went
through some very difficult times with like family deaths my brother
passed away suddenly at the age of 21 and
and I had a baby right after that I couldn't even say goodbye to my
brother because I was you know cross-country la la la so just you know tons
and tons of trauma that this man really I genuinely felt like he was carrying

(11:34):
me through at the time now looking back and reflecting there were some holes
but you know i never would have seen those if we had stayed together if that
makes sense so anyway he was.
I know it sounds crazy. I don't long for my ex, so I don't want anyone for a second to think that.
I'm more than okay that it's over. But when I look back at those,

(11:57):
we were married for 11 years total.
And when I look back at the first 10 years, it was really just so much beauty.
Like, yes, a lot of struggle, but find me a marriage that's not.
We fostered children in the system and we had,
you know some babies and we held each other when when they left and
he he was a he was a very hard

(12:18):
worker moving up the ranks through his job and he
was home every single night you know bedtime stories and
you know like he was just he was a very hands-on dad and
overall a pretty good and attentive husband and
then around the 11th year he i
noticed like he was never like super affectionate which always

(12:38):
kind of bothered me but i just you know that's who
he was la la la i'm neurotic he's not effective we make
it work but around the 11th year
he really started to pull back quite a bit and but
we still weren't fighting and that was the other thing we never really fought
and i grew up in a home where there was lots of fighting and i should say argument

(13:00):
like like massive big explosion arguments and then a couple days later everybody'd
be fine like me and my siblings would duke it out that way with our parents
we would do it my our parents would do it like it was just.
We yelled his family was the opposite they shut down they were silent la la la so in my mind,
if we weren't yelling at each other everything was golden and we never we never

(13:25):
did he didn't call me a stupid and he didn't you know when he was mad at me
he didn't none of that so i thought we have an amazing marriage,
And then, like I said, around 11 years, things just kind of started to deteriorate a lot of secrets.
I didn't have access to our bank account because he would change the password
and then, oh, he forgot it. He'll have to get it from the bank and la la la.

(13:47):
And the way that our bank system was set up, like it wasn't,
we didn't have like two different like usernames and stuff.
It was just like one for that account. Yeah. Yes.
And like he had been paying the bills and stuff. And I had done that for the
first, like, I don't know, like six or seven years.

(14:07):
And then I handed it over to him because I was taking care of like the house
and homeschooling and we were fostering. And so I was taking them to all of
their appointments and all this other stuff.
And I had a part-time job with the church. And so I had a lot of balls in the
air and I just couldn't do that anymore.
And when I took care of it, I was very meticulous and, you know,
debt reducing and, you know, not taking out, not, you know, not using credit

(14:27):
cards, not overdrawing stuff like that.
Because again, we were poor, but I didn't want to, I didn't want to exacerbate the situation.
So anyway, he takes it over so many secrets and then we had just adopted and
me saying this could open me up to a little bit of backlash,
but that's okay. Cause I know the reality of the story.

(14:49):
So anyway, we adopted two teenage boys through foster care.
They are no longer our sons and I'll just cut straight to it.
They were much happier in their previous foster home.
They really bonded with them and regarded them as their parents.
Those foster parents were apprehensive to adopt them out of the system until
they were adults for the kids benefit.
The state didn't see it that way. So they were placed with us.

(15:11):
We had agreed to adopt them a little like in hindsight, I'm like,
it was definitely against the boy's will, but it seemed like the best thing at the time.
So anyway, Anyway, we had adopted them in December and then stuff just started
getting real weird after that.
So December of 2020 and that, you know, COVID, everything's weird, right?

(15:37):
So then beginning of 21, he tells me in February that he, like he turned off
his location on his phone and he worked like an hour away through like really windy two lane roads.
And the weather in Southeast Missouri is just shit sometimes.
Like we'll get ice storms, bam, you got an inch of ice and it would take him

(16:01):
hours to commute home and hours to commute back.
We also have, you know, hellacious storms pop up and tornadoes and yada yada.
And because of all of the trauma that I've had of people close to me being found
dead in the past from just pure accidents, I always liked having his location.
Not because I didn't trust him, you know, X, Y, and Z. I liked being able to

(16:22):
check it, but he turned it off.
And I didn't really make a thing of it at that time.
But I probably asked him about it, but the location was off and never really came back on.
And he had my best friend who is polyamorous.
She called me one day and she's like, hey, so I just feel like I need to tell
you this because you and I talk every day and you have not brought this up with me ever.

(16:46):
Why is he calling my husband and asking him questions about polyamory?
And I was like, silence. I was like, what,
what, like, and also kind of backing up literally two weeks,
we had taken this beautiful weekend at this, you know, amazing bed and breakfast.

(17:08):
And we had gone out and eaten at some really nice, we had a belated 10 year
anniversary celebration and it was really bonding and great.
It was the first time in our entire marriage, we did not have a nursing baby with us.
That's huge so that's like a milestone yes and
it was we we made a you know promise to each
other that we were going to do this you know every six months get away for a

(17:29):
weekend because we'd never been childless from i mean we were married for less
than a month when i found out i was pregnant you know there yeah there's never
a time we didn't have like a baby and so anyway so we we had that and then i
find out that he's exploring polyamory and hasn't even brought it up to me and so feel feel?

(17:50):
I was, I was dumbfounded and I was honestly like when we first started to talk about it,
like I, I very easily became hysterical because I had grown up again in a family,
an extended family where infidelity was commonplace and it caused a lot of trauma for me.
And so, and I had made it very clear, no bones about it.

(18:14):
Like Mandy is my best friend and she has continued to live a polyamorous life and she is very happy.
And I love that for her. I absolutely zero judgment whatsoever.
It has worked for her in her life and she is thriving.
I am not interested in that. And I don't know how I could have made it more
clear up to that point that that is not something I was interested in.
And so for him to have been going behind my back to talk to my best friend in

(18:38):
the entire world, her husband, like that was just bizarre.
And so he comes home and I'm like, okay, hey, this feels very secretive.
It feels very weird. What's going on?
And he was just like, he had, like, I had come out to him as bi like two years before.
And it had never really come up. I was like, I came out to him not for any other

(19:01):
reason than it was just a secret that I'd been keeping that I had to suppress
because I went to this extremely conservative Catholic college.
And I felt like it was a part of myself, just just a fact about myself that I was hiding from.
Yeah, and that makes me think of a lot of married women who have...
Told their husbands after the fact that they're bi, because it's not like a,

(19:22):
A, they didn't want to keep the secret and B, they wanted to have an open and
authentic relationship with their spouse. Does it change anything?
No, not most of the time, but there is something about being seen fully for
who you are. And that is an aspect of who you are.
Right. And that, that was literally, you know, all it was about.
I never, never came to him and said that I wanted to open our

(19:45):
relationship or anything like that again was very clear and
so he brings it up and he was
like i just wanted to do it for you in case you wanted to
have these experiences and i was like i
was like well thank you but i'm not like not interested in it i've had the experiences

(20:06):
that i wanted to have before i met you now he was a virgin when we got married
so i pushed it back to him are you asking for this?
Is this something that I need to, you know, we need to go to marriage counseling
maybe so that I can work through this because I am open to discussing this idea.
I like, I was not like, I mean, we weren't going to start that day with our

(20:28):
marriage by any stretch, but I'm like, is this something you need?
And he assured me absolutely not.
This can be a dead topic. We never have to bring it up again.
And I was like, okay. You know, it was, it was very much a whirlwind because I was blindsided by it.
And then it was, oh no, this is actually for you. And I'm like,
I don't want it. I didn't ask for it. La la la. Okay, move on.

(20:49):
So then we move along and in March, I believe March that year was Easter.
And we surprised the boys that we had adopted with tickets to Universal Studios.
And we surprised our other kids with, I don't remember exactly.
It was something that like for their age, it wasn't Disney, but like for their

(21:12):
age, it was like very appropriate, you know?
And then, and my parents, my grandparents lived in South Florida.
And so we were like, we're going to go down and see Granny and Poppy and stay with them for a week.
And you'll hang out with them for the day while we take the boys to Universal.
And, you know, we're going to just have a blast and have like a little vacation.
And so they were, you know, all of us were excited. So then,

(21:36):
then hop forward a month where actually like,
From that point, like when I look back at pictures, I'm like,
that's the day it changed, even though it hadn't been, it hadn't been said.
So from, I don't, I, I, and I rake through my memories to figure out what happened. I don't know.

(21:57):
But from that point on, Easter on, he was coming to bed extremely late,
like well after I was asleep. And I'd be texting him like, Hey,
are you going to come to bed?
Whatever. He's like, I'm on the phone. I'll be down when I get off, blah, blah, blah.
And he was just all of a sudden, always on the phone with his friend, Dan.

(22:20):
That's a red flag, isn't it? Like, did you know Dan?
Or yeah never met
him and just you can
put it down in you can put it down in your little notebook right here that dan
was also from indiana okay so just keep that detail in mind so he had met him
online also you can keep that one in mind and he was just talking to dan all

(22:44):
the time it was just just so bizarre.
Like we were then not having like any intimacy.
I would always look forward to the end of the day because when he and I were
in bed, that was when we actually got to have a conversation that was interrupted by children.
We could, you know, talk about our day, talk about the next day, you know, whatever.
And I wasn't getting that. And it only took a couple of days for me to start

(23:08):
really feeling unsettled.
And, you know, I brought it up with him a few times And, you know,
it was nothing, it was nothing, you know, I'm just, you know,
looking too far into it, whatever.
Okay. So just keeps going and building.
And then after probably two weeks of that, out of nowhere, he says,

(23:29):
I think we need to see a marriage counselor.
And I'm like, okay, why? All right. Like, yeah.
And I was like, you know, why exactly? Why?
Well, he, I don't, I don't want
to tell you why I just would rather wait until we get to the counselor.
I don't like to sing my guy. Like I couldn't.

(23:55):
And, and he also like, he also was very well aware that one of my,
the greatest fears of my life was our marriage ending because of my childhood trauma.
That was just one of the scariest things ever. And so anytime there was an an
issue i wanted to talk about it and talk it talk it all the way out like you
know as soon as as soon as we could i didn't want it hanging you know and so

(24:17):
i'm like what you know please can you please tell me what this is about this
is giving me a great deal of anxiety you've been acting weird
i don't i just just tell me what i did nope couldn't like couldn't tell me and
of course it was you know like four long grueling days until we could get in
to see this therapist this and,
after hours, no less. So we drive there separately.

(24:40):
Oh, that's weird too. Oh my gosh. I feel anxious for you in high,
like this happened to you ages ago and I'm anxious for you.
So we drive there separately. I am just, and he says like, he just needs time
to think and he doesn't want to talk to me until we get there.
And like for the last decade, he's my person, you know, like,

(25:01):
okay, well then who am I supposed to talk to?
You know, like, Like, so I, and I didn't want to, I had no idea what was going on.
So I didn't even know how to like, like articulate it to my best friend even. Cause I'm like, what?
So we get there and first and last marriage counseling session we ever had,

(25:22):
because he took me there and pulled out several pages that he had written and
read in front of me and the counselor all of the things I had ever done wrong
in our dating and marriage. No.
No. So. So he made you feel like it was all your fault then.
Like he brought in a document prepared to show you why you were the problem

(25:47):
this entire time and due to your past conditioning and already deeply held belief
that there was that you were less than,
you would have been primed to be like, okay, this was my fault. Thank you.
Exactly. And it was, I mean, it was just, some of it was just absolutely stupid.

(26:10):
You know, it's like just shit that happens between like you,
you left this out. And how do you think that would make me feel?
Or there were even things that he had done that I had not chastised him for,
that he expected me to chastise him for.
And got and got upset because
he knew i was upset and i

(26:33):
just didn't say anything that's i'm sorry what i'm
mad at you for not being mad at him like he you yes because he didn't think
he he thought that i i guess that i was doing the same thing to him on those
topics that he had clearly

(26:54):
been doing to me for all of those years.
So all these years, I thought we're not fighting.
It must be good. It must be fine.
And, but instead he's keeping a ledger of never bringing, never bringing this stuff up to me.
Stuff that I thought we had, there were some things that I thought we had talked

(27:15):
out that we were at an understanding about. Nope.
Even from dating, like some of the bigger issues that we had from then.
Nope. Like those were apparently had never ever been resolved.
So it just really, it like, it was really crazy.
Like I, and it's so much to wrap my head around, you know, hearing everything
that I'd done wrong for the last 10 years or actually more because of dating.

(27:36):
So that must've been so hard. Well, I'm given.
It was, and it like, it caught me out of like, out of left field,
you know, it wasn't, no wonder he couldn't tell me what I had done wrong because
it was like literal pages.
And so So I was just flabbergasted because there's no way, even to this day.

(27:59):
Like that i could make a list of
the i mean and i could i could air it out right now like
you know i would have full the full ability i can't air
out my grievances from when we were married because when they left my like when
they were settled for me they were so settled like yeah yeah that i can't even
i can't even tell you sure did he have shortcomings absolutely like you know

(28:24):
he's an American white man that grew up in patriarchal religion.
Like, of course there were some holes there, but I brought my,
I brought my own inadequacies, you know, and I thought that's what marriage was about.
So from, from then, you know, we basically ended the session with really no

(28:44):
resolution whatsoever.
And so finally we get out into the parking lot and I was like,
Like, are you like, and I had been just stripped back,
you know, like I had not an ounce of self-esteem left in me at that moment,
this man that I loved more than anything.

(29:05):
And I had sacrificed any potential career.
I had given him everything, like no fucking resume.
Like I had no accounts in my own name. I had no credit, you know,
like I didn't have my. name on anything.
Like I literally had nothing without this man, both figuratively,
emotionally, like financially, everything.

(29:28):
And with, without warning, he, you know, he just like, he completely strips me down. And I said.
You know, with how you view me and now how I viewed myself, like,
why, like, do you even still want to be with me? Like, how could you want to be?
And I said, I said, and this was held against me from the, from that moment

(29:52):
on, I said, I wouldn't blame you if you left me,
because who the fuck would, after you just heard like all, like,
I mean, it was traumatizing thing to have.
And again, I know we already emphasized this, but for anybody listening.
I had a very similar experience to you where I felt like I was the unclean one.

(30:15):
I felt like I was unworthy.
I had a lot of baggage that I brought into my marriage.
And when you are told to your face, like when you already feel that way about
yourself, and then your partner turns to you and says, by the way,
you're the entire problem.
It is so easy to believe that about yourself.
So like at the time, I'm sure that you didn't even question it and you just

(30:40):
immediately took that to heart. Like, of course, of course I'm the problem.
Like, why would you want to be with me? You were this, like,
you saw him as this fantastic person.
So like, why would you want to be with me? I wouldn't want to be with me. Right.
And there was even a point in that like 24 hours that followed that,

(31:01):
that I was like, do I even, should I even be around children? Yeah.
Because if I am this, this awful, and I genuinely meant that,
I mean, it thrust me into a horrible depression.
And he, you know, he said he didn't want to be with me, didn't want to be married to me anymore.
And we could just, you know, figure this out. And I'm like, well,
two minus, you know, seven hours, we're supposed to be putting everyone in the

(31:25):
van and going to Florida. Oh, yeah, that's great timing, my guy.
Exactly so do we do we not do this
and this is where the crazy started this is
where like the legitimate where i feel like the
legitimate crazy began with him was he sat
in the bedroom and told me that i didn't like i could

(31:46):
just stay home he would take all the kids to
south florida to my grandparents house and
you would just stay behind and he
was like yeah i just i'll just tell him that you just you you know you
needed some time away from the kids they'll never
believe that they know they
know who I am they know that you know like I grew up in my grandma's daycare

(32:08):
like I ran that place you know in my mind I did like those were my babies like
and I've always been like that there's no way that I would miss out on my children
having the time of their lives Like are you out? Are you crazy?
And so and Maris was still nursing to like our youngest like Still kind of nursing to sleep,
you know She could she could go a couple nights without it Which is how we were

(32:31):
able to you know, get away a few months before But she was also like super attached
to me The only person she could stay with was my sister and who she stayed with,
you know So anyway, I was like no absolutely not.
So we we drive down there that you could cut the tension.
Oh With a freaking chainsaw. I mean it was.
It was so thick and all of the kids were picking up on it, especially our boys

(32:56):
that had already lived through such trauma because they are very keen,
you know, traumatized kids are very keen to that, that kind of stuff. Yeah.
Yeah. So it was just, it was weird. He was drinking and this is going to sound,
it may sound petty, but it makes sense later, I guess.
He was constantly dipping, which in our marriage, I would like,

(33:18):
he never really did that.
Like he would smoke off and on occasionally, but he was like heavily dipping
and drinking like Mountain Dew and Coke like nobody's business.
I mean, like, like it was one after another, which again, probably sounds petty
for me to have cared about that.
But I did because that was not normal. I was going to say, I once when you notice

(33:40):
a change in behavior like that, it's unless you've lived through it,
it's hard to describe how jarring it is.
But like I, speaking from similar experiences, when their habits suddenly change
like that, it is like, what's happening?
Why are you being like this all of a sudden?
Exactly. Exactly. And so then any, any question that I had about that was just,

(34:05):
it was met with, well, what do you mean?
I'm always like this. You just never let me be like this.
And, you know, basically like I'm taking the reins and I'm like, okay, okay.
Is it me? Like, you know, so he also was like, he wasn't sleeping except for a few hours at a time.
He was extremely flinchy and everything. thing

(34:26):
we go down to florida my grandparents like
my grandparents knew immediately i get out of the car and they're
like i mean they were kind of like my second parents they're
like something's wrong with her you know like something's off
like i was pale i barely ate you know i was going through a divorce so we're
there patrick gets out of the car acts like nothing in the world is wrong nothing

(34:48):
whatsoever all is well so happy to see them la la la we go on a couple days
of this vacation where where shit's just getting more and more weird.
I started doing a little bit of digging and snooping and come to find out he
is at the time was exceeding, he had recently started taking Adderall.
And he was- There was a level of drugs happening based on the twitches and everything, okay.

(35:12):
Yes, so he was like, he had never taken anything, before a few months prior
to that, he had tried a few other like ADHD medicines.
Once he got on Adderall, I feel like that's
when shit really shifted and I did a little pill counting remembered you know

(35:32):
from you know information like what I had read and stuff from home and it turns
out he was like basically throughout the day as needed tripling his Adderall
intake with very rippling tripling.
Tripling. So he was, I think, in my non-professional opinion,
he was having some type of serotonin storm.

(35:54):
And the signs of that are not sleeping, being jumpy, being twitchy,
consuming extreme levels of caffeine and or nicotine.
And so I like he was really checking those boxes
and I told my grandparents you know what
I had found with this and that I was you know really
afraid by it and my grandpa had previously worked

(36:15):
in law enforcement and he was like contact his
doctor but you need to get rid of this medication
like the like something needs to happen he's like
I don't want the shit I don't want the shit in my house and I'm like I don't want
to alarm the kids so I talked to his doctor and she was like he's not
been on it very long if you can find it take it
from him and just she was like with him having these

(36:36):
type of side effects just flush it now in hindsight she's a
primary care physician so in hindsight he should have been weaned off of it
right he probably would have have to have been but also that must have felt
so scary because like i know that adderall well adderall and that i don't even

(36:56):
know what Adderall and those doses would do to you.
But like, I know that Adderall doesn't seem like a super scary thing,
but when you're dealing with someone who's been your partner for 10 years and
suddenly has a full personality shift is now changing all of their behaviors
and you know, is on some form of medication, it starts to feel dangerous.
Like what is he going to do?

(37:18):
Right. And he, like I said, hadn't slept in days and he was driving our kids
and and stuff and i was just also keep in mind like everyone in my life has adhd so.
And and more than half of them are like are are
taking stuff for it my sister took adderall for years and so it's not i don't
i think some people absolutely need it maybe on a lower dose he was benefiting

(37:41):
from it so this is not you know and i took i took prozac for years so i don't
have you know this is not saying anything in any way shape or form negative
about people who need to take it.
It's the way that it was being taken.
Yeah. Right.
And so anyway, then a couple nights into this, you know, super wonderful vacation,

(38:03):
he just up and leaves in the middle of the night. Yeah.
He doesn't tell me what he's doing. I have no warning whatsoever.
His sister lived in Sarasota about two and a half hours away and she drove all
the way down and got him because he didn't feel safe.
Yeah, he didn't feel safe with me. Stop it.

(38:26):
I remember he said, I remember that from the round table. This is one of the
parts that I was like, I need, I need a follow up because I need to know.
He told his sister that he didn't feel safe with you.
What yeah i had never like i never put hands on him i had never threatened him

(38:47):
it through this whole like freaking saga like i i don't it's i cried a lot you
know and there there were times that I cried loudly. I was in agony.
I was terrified of what my, but, and I, I wanted, that was like, I wanted to be with him.
You know, I was, I was blindsided. I wanted this man that I loved to hold me

(39:12):
and assure me that life was going to be okay, but he couldn't do that.
And I'm reeling in pain and he's just like pulling and pulling and pulling further away.
And then saying how in danger he felt.
So then this was still so much more of a mind fuck because Because I'm like,
because my grandparents, I probably would have completely lost my mind if my

(39:33):
grandparents weren't like, no, no, no.
Like, we're watching this. You are not the dangerous one in this situation.
Thank God you're with your parents or your grandparents. Excuse me.
Because especially after he had told you everything that he believed that you
had done wrong within this marriage.
If you hadn't been with your grandparents, it probably would have also been

(39:54):
easy for you to believe that you were the dangerous one in this situation.
And that's not to say that he was dangerous, but he was being very dramatic. Yeah. Yeah.
Right. And he, another thing that my grandparents noticed is he was always very
quiet, very, very quiet, but man of very few words. Right.
When we got to Florida, he was talking a mile a minute.

(40:18):
And so they, and my grandpa was just, and was just over the,
I mean, he was over the moon happy.
And my grandpa was like, who is this guy? What? what?
We've known him for 10 years. This is not how he is, you know?
And so, and it's not like, and then later, you know, of course I was,
I was blamed for, you know, I just wanted him to be miserable.
And that's why I couldn't handle that. He was talking so much and he was happy

(40:42):
because I wanted nothing but his misery. And I was like, are you serious?
Like, that was just, I've, I never want anything other than your happiness.
It was just such a night and day, you know, like Like just so quickly.
And like I said, everything was changing.
So anyway, he leaves in the middle of the night and says that we can meet somewhere

(41:02):
for, I don't even remember exactly how it worked out, but that I think he was
going to drive down that morning,
so that he could meet us at my grandparents and then drive with us to Universal Studios.
And at this point, things have been like so weird that I didn't want him driving.
So I was driving. and he had this little like spiral notebook that he would

(41:25):
keep like in a shirt pocket and he kept pulling it out like anytime we would
talk to each other like you would anytime like what you were saying.
It was way weirder than that every time every time we would talk he would look at the clock,
and then write something and later i

(41:46):
found out that what he was doing was every time
i would talk to him he was looking at the clock
and checking his heart rate because he was
convinced that like me even speaking
to him and him even being in my presence was giving him just
such a debilitating anxiety stop it i cannot
meanwhile meanwhile we have

(42:07):
these we have these two teenagers in the back seat that we're taking to universal
and he's acting like ain't shit like he's sitting next to me acting like nothing's
going wrong i'm sorry but you're not incapacitated by your anxiety if you're
still able to you know like talk and joke with them like what would you you give him anxiety.
I don't like, like, where did this train of thought come from?

(42:31):
It seems to be some sort of like, and again, I'm not, well, I'm implying it,
but I'm not saying that I know for sure.
But like, do you know if Adderall is the only thing he was taking?
Because like, that level of paranoia is just like, and again,
I don't know if Adderall has that side effect in the high doses that he was
taking so it could but like right that is just so what what yeah.

(42:58):
Right so my both of my sisters are completely convinced that there was something
else i can't say obviously because i wasn't there it's just my outside opinion.
But right now like i i have nothing to
i have nothing to point to to say yeah i think it was this or there's a history
of that or blah blah blah but and no evidence so I can't say one way or the

(43:22):
other but at this point it wouldn't surprise me so the adventure doesn't stop
there we go to universal you know happy little family pretending everything is okay.
And without any warning and granted like i knew he didn't want to be married but i was still,
married to me but i was we were on a family vacation i was
so hopeful that you know once his medication wore

(43:44):
off like hopefully everything would be fine you
know like we would you know or we would go to marriage counseling
more you know like anything at this point like i was
willing to do anything to save our marriage and he no
just i completely blindsided me by not no
longer wearing his wedding ring wait and there on
your family vacation he took his robber there on family

(44:06):
vacation and the kids have no idea what's going on so if
you've worn a metal wedding band for a long time you can take it off but it's
still there i mean like the so he has this very obviously white ring and this
indention on his you know where he took off his ring that he had not taken off
the entire time we were married.

(44:27):
And it was, it was just so like, so that one, you know, that was a gut punch.
And I don't remember what led
me to want to do this. I guess I just wanted to completely ruin my day.
While they were on a roller coaster,
waiting in line for a roller coaster that I didn't want to get on.
I called the bank and was like, Hey, I've been locked out of my account for some time.

(44:55):
Can you please help me, you know, get into it? So one that, you know,
and I had them send me bank statements.
Oh man, I forgot this detail. So he left in the middle of the night.
The next day I find out we're $700 overdrawn in the account.
Gosh, I've, I've been there and it's a terrible feeling.
So I'm in Florida, apparently going through a divorce. all of my children are

(45:19):
there even with a full tank of gas in my Ford Transit I'm not getting back home,
you know, without money. And so I'm in a complete panic.
I talked to my best friend, she wires me some money. My grandparents,
of course, no one misses a meal.
They're very supportive and wonderful during this time. So then,
you know, we get, get to universal.
And then I asked for my bank statement and apparently this is,

(45:43):
had been going on for a long, long time.
So the better part of a year, we had never hit zero.
I mean, like he would get, he would get paid and the
vast majority of his paycheck would just be paying the
paying us back up to zero wow right
and so I looked at I started looking at where

(46:05):
like where is money going because my sister's like he's
doing drugs you gotta so I'm looking there's nothing.
Obvious there's small cash withdrawals
here and there but it's nothing that's like so much money that
you know what I i mean so i'm just raking through it
not really finding any true and solid answers but then
you know like all these wheels start turning and

(46:27):
i'm realizing like these phone calls i'm getting from
debt collectors he keeps telling me that he's handling
them so i was like the next one i get
which was nearly every day is like
from our home loan place and so i thought
like i finally answer and then come to find out he
had not been making our house payment

(46:47):
for 14 months at that
time that puts you in like foreclosure territory yes and
the only reason that we were still living in that house was
because of the covid laws that were instituted the
year before that yeah so he
hadn't so and and also keep
in mind this was not like we lived in like

(47:09):
the boonies okay of southeast east missouri the
cost of living is like is very low and
our house payment to the proportion of
his income was wonderful because we were only paying and
this is going to make most of your listeners like want to throw up we were only
paying 400 as a house payment i know 400 and it wasn't a again it wasn't a massive

(47:35):
house but it was a like it was fine you know it was a fine house It was $400 a month.
We had a half acre of yard in a safe town in a good school district.
You know, like it was... Where was that money going then?
Because if like... Because like if you're constantly without money,
but then the house like...
What? Maybe that makes sense. I know you probably can't. Right. Yeah. No, still never.

(48:01):
And then a few days later, come to find out, they were about to,
like, I called the lender that we had bought our van through.
And we were 10 days for them before they were starting the repossession.
So the house is underwater, basically. The car is almost, well,
the car is underwater. water and you're constantly, there's constantly zero

(48:22):
money in the account, even though money is coming in, like what are you doing?
Like you have to be mad at money to get to that point. Like what? That's next level.
I mean, how do you just, how do you not pay your housemate? What was his plan?
You know? And that's what I asked him a million times after that, like,

(48:43):
what did you you think was going to happen so basically
the the short version of what happened with the house
is that we had lived there for almost a
decade and because he had
gone so long without paying it and by the way he continued to not pay it even
after this conversation so when we went to sell it it had eaten up all of the

(49:05):
equity oh no that's just that's that's insult to injury right there that, you know, no.
I, I got, I got, I had nothing to restart my life.
And when I had invested blood, sweat, and tears into that place,
I mean, the same as he had, you know, I'm not trying to take that away from
him, but I'd invested so much of that.

(49:26):
I didn't want to throw it away. I mean, we had redone like every aspect of that house.
There wasn't a room untouched. And so we basically Basically, it was just a cluster up.
We sold it for way less than it was worth. It was awful.
And then I found out about six months later, the people that bought it from

(49:48):
us flipped it and resold it for almost three times.
Oh, no. Oh, that would break my heart because, A, that's your home, right?
You wouldn't have kept it if you could, probably, especially where it was at.
It would be like yeah, well, I would love I would love to keep this house because
I could actually afford to if

(50:09):
situations Were right, but oh no and right I've had that amount of money.
Also that yeah It was it was like everything that could be made complicated
as you well know with divorce is made complicated And I kind of jumped over
the bridge there one of the reason like I.

(50:29):
So we were still living together and even after
even after i had talked to a lawyer i don't
want to jump there yet hold on so we get back from florida my sister
fly my best friend flies my sister down to drive back
with us because it's like an 18 20 hour
drive i was gonna have to do it all by myself because
at this point i don't i didn't know if he was gonna show back up to

(50:49):
leave with us so anyway we we
do that get back home you know everything
like home safely everything is still up in
the air and a clusterfuck and he goes
to stay at this is just some like i
don't know like if you went out of a marriage you don't get to to use
the other person's family for you to your advantage but he

(51:11):
basically like he had my he called
my grandparents to ask if he could stay in their winter i
mean their summer home yeah and so and they were like i guess
and at the time i was still like hopeful yeah you
know like okay maybe he needs a couple of days maybe you know we
can talk about this now and blah blah blah right but
so he he was staying there come to find out

(51:33):
he had somehow i don't even know how this happened but he had gone to like an
urgent care or some some type of place and told them that he had misplaced his
adderall and i guess florida is just oh relax on it because he was able somehow
i don't know how he did it because I wasn't there.
He was with his sister at the time. He was able to access more.

(51:56):
And so there was no, no, there was no him coming off of it. There was no him
leaning off of it at that point.
Even though you had told his doctor, you had taken the step of removing the
medication per your doctor's advice.
Yes. He was able to get more. And like, yes, he took me off of it.
He called, he, after that, he called the doctor and took me off of his,

(52:19):
like that basically said that I was not his, what is it called? Emergency.
You get permission. me emergency but yeah yeah so
basically you just like he he took me off of there I
had no way of checking on anything in
that regard so anyway regardless like
it was everything got like really hairy and all for when

(52:40):
we got back and so then we I
hadn't even talked to a lawyer yet and we knew that Missouri law
was 50 50 and so to create the piece
I was like well you know I'll
find a job and i will be responsible for the
children 50 in the house 50 of the time and you do blah
blah blah that's what i mean i think he was the one that originally came

(53:01):
up with that plan which was fine for me at the time because
what the fuck was i gonna do and so
i i mean at that point he also started
getting really nasty in a way that like he never had
before basically like good luck finding a job kind of throwing it in my face
acting as if like he was now going to have this unbridled freedom when he wasn't

(53:22):
at work and he was going to be able to do whatever he wanted to do you know
lol good luck finding a job and if you want to do oh that's was the condition
if you want to do 50 50 custody.
Like, if I didn't want the kids 100% of the time, then I needed to get a job
and pay for 50% of the bills.
And I'm like, you're not even letting, giving me a minute to come up to Bree. Yeah. But, okay.

(53:47):
So, I found a job by the next day, started serving tables. So my week off,
I very quickly over those first couple of weeks that when I wasn't at the house
came to realize that when it wasn't my week, but I was at the house,
I was still the default for all of the household chores,
all of the children's needs, et cetera, et cetera. That's a woman's work, isn't it?

(54:10):
Exactly. So that's when it started becoming very evident to me of like what
my role had truly been in the marriage, that this was not even,
even remotely an equal partnership, nor was it seen as.
And so I would, I started staying away the entire week, which was,
I'd seen my children every moment of their lives.

(54:33):
And to only, to, to have, have, feel like I had to make the decision to go purely
50-50 at that time was devastating.
If I wasn't at home, I was working doubles. I was doing everything that I could
to advance our life so that I could figure out a way to get out of there.
And when I would come home, I would almost always be hit with this most awful,

(54:57):
putrid smell of nothing having been washed that week.
We had four dogs, three or four dogs, and they were never let out. Stop.
Like, A, the smell from, like, unwashed dishes is a stench. Like,
if you have ever left your dishes in the sink for a day or two,
which I definitely have. Yeah.

(55:19):
Trash piled. Dishes. But the animals, too. Like.
It was so, so bad.
Like I was re-triggered last week briefly because thankfully my Google memories
wanted to show me pictures I had taken of the house.

(55:43):
Let's relive this. Right.
Let's relive this. But there were piles of feces. Like it was on the wall.
There were puddles of urine. And somehow the mattresses from the kids' beds
were pulled off and on the floor and the dogs had been sleeping and urinating
on them. Like it was so disgusting.

(56:03):
And I was only gone a week at a time.
So I would, I would spend literally the first three to four days round the clock
trying to catch up and clean every single thing that I could.
And trying to prepare to like
prepare for his week to try

(56:23):
to sidestep some disaster from while i
while i was gone and that only took a few
rounds of me walking in and essentially having a
panic attack because this house that i had put so much work
into i always did my best to keep clean yeah and
then seeing the conditions my children were sleeping in and having to live
in and also i think it needs

(56:44):
to be noted that it was i feel like this it went beyond like he was just bad
at how like keeping a house or tanya he had a mental illness or whatever i think
it goes beyond that to a level of arrogance because his room was redecorated i'm sorry yes.

(57:07):
Redecorated filth actual filth and
he's redecorated his room redecorated and
it was which i also have pictures of that good like i had no right i took like
i was like what it was like being in the twilight zone so i just like i talked

(57:29):
to to josh we'd started dating at that time which also,
gosh, I keep, there's so much.
I keep forgetting details in this timeline. I should have drawn them out.
But we've returned from Florida and three days later, he's no longer talking to Dan from Indiana.
He's talking to, I'll change her name for this, Sadie from Indiana.

(57:50):
See, I had either, okay, well, I don't mean this any kind of way,
but I had either assumed that Dan really was a man and maybe perhaps this whole time he was, Because...
In interested in men and just kind of hiding behind
it right it makes sense there's lots of people
that have that exact same story when you're in high demand
religions right get the chance to like be authentic absolutely or the other

(58:15):
option was that dan was a fake name for a woman which sounds like yeah so sounds
like he fell head over heels for sadie over there in indiana and yeah So it
wasn't, like I said, three days after our return,
that's when I am openly on the phone with her and could not give a rat's ass

(58:37):
about anybody else in the entire world. Did she know?
I mean, no judgment to her, but did she know that he was married with children?
Day i ended up contacting her
later because i felt like she there were
just so many layers of lies that had come out from from him
that and i knew she was a single mom
and had had a few kids and so i felt

(59:00):
like woman to woman i owed her like not
not again like not to meddle in their relationship when he
said he was done and there was no reason to fight i sat
it down i grieved it I was moving on to
way faster than I ever expected I would but I did
I had moved on as well and I just
wanted her to know you know what

(59:21):
how how bad this you know it had gotten and how many years of lives there had
been and so I let her know she said she she was aware that we were married but
they weren't physical or anything like that and yada yada around the same around
this like Like the same time that I told her that, which was, you know, six.
Seven months out from that, because he was talking about moving up there with her and stuff.

(59:45):
And he ended up doing that. And that was, you know, fine. You know,
live your best life, bro. Otherwise, what are we doing here?
But he, I let her know, like, hey, he's a pathological liar.
And, you know, he's done X, Y, and Z. Just mom to mom.
I wanted you to be able to protect yourself because this boy doesn't have a pot to piss in.

(01:00:07):
Right now right and and the condition so
in his own children live children yeah
well come to find out the reason
that those mattresses were on the floor is so that she could sleep on
them excuse me i'm not kidding and i
i laid into him i laid
into him after that with the kids though like where

(01:00:29):
were the kids no they they they were they
were in so like there were three yeah there were three bedrooms
he supposedly slept in ours she supposedly slept up there and i don't know i
was like like at the time i'm like was he lying and she was actually sleeping
in the room with him because i would have much preferred that to having a human
sleep in those inhumane i was gonna say she wasn't bothered by the dog pee like

(01:00:51):
yeah so i'm like so part of me is just like,
you're a stupid liar. She was sleeping in the bed with you. Just say that because
it actually makes you look worse. It does make him look worse.
His own children sleep like that.
But like, if he's bringing the woman that he's ending this relationship into
the house to sleep there and there's like, here's this dog urine mattress.

(01:01:13):
What? And yeah, I was like, what kind of self esteem does this woman have that
she drove this far to be treated this way?
And I, I was like, He and I weren't together anymore, but I am a raging feminist.
You are not going to treat a woman like that. I wouldn't even want my dogs to
sleep like that. And you're claiming she slept there?

(01:01:35):
You better tell me you had her in our marital bed. That's a better choice.
So anyway, just, you know, like, I mean, the insanity just kept going for a
while. But, you know, a couple of times of walking into those situations,
I had to get out and Josh and I were moving really serious, really fast.

(01:01:57):
It's certainly not advice that I would have given to, you know,
say my little sister or whatever to move on and move in with someone that fast.
But it really worked out for me. You know, it was really I really did hit the lottery on that.
And because Josh is amazing and he's been a dad to my children from day one,
whereas my ex just he he was a super dad for a hot minute.
It and then once he moved the super dadness started

(01:02:20):
to fall into you know fun uncle
and now it's completely it's completely fallen off
now to no contact his doing so and then just talking to people that knew us
during that time it comes up when i say almost daily i mean literally almost
daily where people from you know
like past friends or nannies or you know extended family members are like.

(01:02:44):
How do you wrap your head around this because we never
saw this coming and i was like i didn't either you know like everyone
thought that we were a wonderful couple everyone
thought that he was just this super together man and this like i in my mind
it was like okay fine leave me right i'm i'm grown i'll figure it out i'll you

(01:03:04):
know i'll go to therapy my wounds will be healed maybe i really truly am the
problem but he's never going to leave clearly you're not the problem because look at
this looking back i always feel like it's validating when other people don't
see these things coming to because it's like okay well i'm not crazy like how
long do you think it's like,

(01:03:25):
do you think he was living a double life like longer or like hiding these things
about himself or was it just like a sudden like personality shift i don't know
i don't know like i said i I don't have evidence to make any kind of claim that
this was going on so much longer than it was.
Part of me believes that it was a part of me thinks that it was,

(01:03:48):
you know, he just had a psychotic break.
We had a very high stress life. Like, you know, adopting two teenage boys with
a lot of trauma was not a cakewalk. Right.
I thought we were on the same page with that and the commitment that,
that came with that. I don't know. I just, I don't know.
And then I'm like, also, was I that naive? Did I really have on some extremely

(01:04:10):
strong rose-colored glasses?
I don't know. It's still a game for me that keeps me up at night sometimes.
Still to this day, happily married, thrilled, really living a wonderful life
beyond my wildest dreams.
Dreams and my kids are all happy and thriving and
in a great in great schools and I just I

(01:04:31):
still can't believe that that person
that I had you know I really genuinely thought I would be with him for my whole
life so that also has has contributed to a great deal of insecurity and like
what ifs now in regards to my current husband because I'm just like what like
what if you wake up one morning and can't stand to be around me.

(01:04:54):
You know, like, what do I do, you know?
So. That would be so hard because I'm also someone that has a lot of abandonment.
Like, I'm really afraid of that and it does bleed into other relationships or I'm like,
if communications change suddenly, even if like, I logically understand that

(01:05:15):
the other person is like having a day or whatever, I pay attention to the tone
and I notice these trends,
but I still will immediately panic and be like,
what if you just wake up and decide that it's terrifying?
And it's something that I'm aware of and I actively work on because that's an

(01:05:37):
anxious attachment style.
So I try to work on that, but that level of trauma really does bleed into other areas of your life.
It doesn't just Just disappear because the person that you were with that treated
you terribly is out of the picture now.
Right. Exactly. And I hate so much that Josh has to carry that baggage with me.

(01:06:01):
But at the same time, I'm so happy that he's so willing to carry it with me.
It helps that he's been through a divorce also.
Yeah. And the reassurance that comes from them, being willing to understand
how you got to where you are and meeting to work with you through those triggers is also huge.

(01:06:22):
So like i'm i'm glad that you have that you have him too because it makes such a difference,
all the difference in the world and he you know the often
has to repeat the same lines over and over you know to really to to get it to
to settle me but no i he genuinely feels like i probably said this in the in

(01:06:45):
the last episode too but he truly feels like a soulmate i didn't think i even believed in that.
And I, especially after my divorce, but I definitely do now.
I feel like he's my best friend in the world and I couldn't be happier that
everything exploded and that I could now have this, you know,
I, where you're like, that was terrible.

(01:07:07):
The year out of 10 stars do not recommend that whole experience.
Now being with the person that you're with now being with With Josh,
it's like I would do it again to get like to get that right.
I would I would 100 percent. I would do it again 10 times over to get to the
person that you should be with.

(01:07:28):
Right. And I, I wouldn't trade anything like any journey in the world that led
me to having the four kids that I have.
And, you know, like Josh has his son, so that's why I say I have five,
but I, I, I have been, you know, my life has been completely changed and made
so much more beautiful by those four children.
I would go through, you know, the deepest trenches of hell to make,

(01:07:49):
you know, to make sure that I have them in every lifetime.
So, and I don't think Josh and I would have liked each other before then either. there.
It's weird. And same, I would go through anything to have, to have my kids.
I wouldn't change anything about my journey because it means that I,
I have my kids and I love my kids more than, more than anyone can express.

(01:08:11):
So your ex just kind of like fell off the radar there. He wasn't like,
he went, you know, he kind of disappeared.
What was like, what was the divorce process like for you then? Was it?
Well, I had been clearly married to him long enough to know his tendencies.
So he said he wanted a divorce and I am very proactive.
I don't like it. Like if we're doing something, we're doing it.

(01:08:33):
And that's how Josh is, which is also why we should talk about,
but he said, we're getting a divorce.
And I was like, okay, you want a divorce? You can file for a divorce,
right? Like you go ahead and file for it. And then like two,
three months passed. And I was like, you know what?
I can see this guy drawing this process out for so long and kicking this can
for so long that if I want to get married at some point or do anything with my life,

(01:09:00):
I'm then going to have to wait for him. Right.
And you got me fucked up if you think you were doing that.
So I actually, I found the lawyer. I was the one that filed,
which was a crazy turn of events because I did not expect I would be there. But I did that.
And then he did try to start, you know, kind of kicking some cans.
And I was like, look, like, and it was, it was over, like, it was over stupid stuff.

(01:09:25):
Like he wouldn't, wouldn't get the house appraised and wouldn't do this and
that, which in, in the end, it turns out that the reason he didn't want to talk
about the house at all is because of what he had continued to do.
Yeah. So anyway, so I just, I made stuff happen so that it could get done.
And our divorce actually pushed with, pushed through in probably six,

(01:09:45):
eight months, something like that.
So that is not, that's not part of the horror story.
I was just like, and I made it, you know, I feel like as easy as possible.
I was like, I want these like five things, my clothes and my children minimum 50% of the time.
Like, you know, thankfully I also pushed for child support, which I'm very glad

(01:10:11):
now because I, I had the kids 95% of the time and now 100% of the time.
So, and he, you know, refuses to help pay with, for extracurriculars and things
like that, that are very clearly in the divorce decree.
But he has, you know, has no interest in,
any of that. So fine. At this point, like I'm so over it, I'll just let him
bury himself and we're going to all move on with our happy, healthy lives and

(01:10:35):
he can do his thing. Yeah.
So yeah, that's the best case scenario really is like, if you're not interested
in being in their lives, then okay. Bye.
Yeah. I mean, they've had, they've had a completely different take on that,
which I'm sure, you know, anyone can understand.
They've, they've really struggled. and the only times I ever get mad at him

(01:10:56):
at my ex is when I'm holding children and trying to mend the broken heart that, that he made,
you know, and that, and I don't even mean like that on the divorce.
Like, I feel like I've done a great job of explaining to them.
Sometimes relationships end and, you know, they seem to have accepted that.
Like there were a lot of changes in their life, but you know,
I was a ride or die with them and surely made, certainly made some mistakes,

(01:11:19):
but they, they've all come to terms with it.
They love Josh. And again, he's a, he's a great dad to them,
but with the growing absence of their, of their bio dad, it's gotten increasingly hard on them.
And they're like, you know, I I've told them I'm, I will never be an obstacle to that.
And it's just, I, but he always tells them that I am.

(01:11:41):
So that's the other thing is like, Like I have to show them text messages,
our exchanges of like, look, I don't want to involve the children,
but if you're going to tell them that I'm lying to them, I'm going to show them
the black and white truth.
Because I explain to them when they're crying at night, like he loves you.
I don't know what he has going on. I know that he loves you.

(01:12:04):
Hopefully, you know, I don't want to instill false hope in them,
but I'm like, hopefully he will come back someday because he's not the man that
any of us remember, you know?
So yeah. Yeah, I've actually been there too, different circumstances, but very similar.
I've been in the position of consoling some of my kids who are.
Crying and asking why dad doesn't love us. Why doesn't dad want to see us?

(01:12:26):
Why doesn't dad want to talk to us?
And it is the most heartbreaking thing as a mother, maybe not the most,
but like, it's a very heartbreaking thing as a mother to have to explain that,
of course, your dad loves you. I'm so sorry. I don't understand what's happening.
I don't understand why these behaviors are happening. Of course, your dad loves you.

(01:12:47):
And then to say, like, because speaking for me, part of me is like, well, no, fuck you.
If you're going to make them feel like this, you don't need to be in their lives.
But also, additionally, I am also out there being like, no, listen,
I'm sure that there was something else going on.
Like, you know, always being open to facilitating those conversations.

(01:13:11):
Like one of my children has decided to go no contact. and I support them.
But I also am in the background saying that option is always available to you.
You can, anytime you want to, if you want, I will drive you.
If you decide that you want to see your dad again, I will drive you cross country.
I will, well, maybe not cross country, but it's another layer of heartbreak for us as well,

(01:13:41):
because like we had the pain of the everything that happened.
And we are the ones watching our children hurting over these things and watching
them try to like regain hope that maybe things can get better and just like
constantly being met with, well, I don't even know if I want to try,
but also I want this relationship.

(01:14:03):
It is devastating.
Yes. I've had one go non, no contact and they know that I still have his phone
number in my, you know, in my phone. And I've told them that whenever they're
ready for it to get it back, cause they deleted it from their phone because
they were just tired of their heartbroken.
And I said, you know, you can have it back whenever you want.
I'm not going to stop you.

(01:14:24):
And then the other one, like I have another, one of my other kids are struggling
in school with concentrating and things like that, because especially if there is like.
When he's reached out to his dad and then he's not responded or he's tried to
call him and he never calls back.
And so that really, that eats him alive.
And then the other one, the one that I've lately I've been tucking into bed

(01:14:46):
while she's crying, her biggest thing is why is he taking care of those kids
and he can't even call him.
So he doesn't call, he doesn't, he doesn't even ask me how they're doing.
You know, like he has no idea what's going on in their lives.
And it's really really sad because
on for a me and him level like bye

(01:15:07):
bro if i we didn't have kids i would never need to see
him again never need to talk to him again i wouldn't even like facebook
creep him nothing like all right my heart was broken i'll mend i'll get over
it right exactly but unfortunately we still have to try to trudge through this
crap yeah and i want I want them to have as healthy of a relationship with him as possible,

(01:15:31):
but he makes them very difficult.
Yeah, that's always my stance. I always try to keep it in as positive a light
as I can to honor the fact that they are sad and that about things changing.
And then also to say, hopefully it can get better.
Hopefully this won't last forever. But being the one in the trenches dealing with it,

(01:15:56):
it is a hard part of a divorce like that because not every divorce has that aspect.
Divorce is hard no matter what. Unless maybe the rare one where both people
are like, no, we're not happy, but we're going to do the best we can to raise

(01:16:16):
these kids together. It's hard.
No matter what. Right. And it's really hard to talk to your children in an unbiased
way that is in regards to a person that's breaking their heart.
And you know that if it was anyone else on the planet, you'd be beating their
door down to try to beat their face.
And nobody treat my kids. And yeah, and there's nothing that I can do about

(01:16:42):
it other than, like they're all in therapy, that's all I can do.
Cause I want to try to offer them that unbiased, you know, professional take on stuff.
Yeah, that's the best thing we can do is to remain unbiased when we're speaking
about them, even though that can be hard to do.
And to offer them solutions outside of it, because it's like,

(01:17:07):
it's exhausting taking the high road. Can I just say?
It is. Yeah, yeah.
But I'm glad that they have, well, that all of you have Josh,
who has really stepped in to...
Be a father figure. I know that they're still missing their biological father,

(01:17:29):
but at least they also have his influence in their life and his stability,
because it sounds like he's done a pretty good job of reassuring you.
And I'm sure he does the same thing for your children too.
Right. For sure. And he gives them, you know, all the hugs and he's in the front
row and, you know, for, for everything.
And he funds our entire life, you know, in a way that like, Like,

(01:17:53):
I mean, he doesn't have to, you know, but he, he absolutely does.
There was a part of me that's like, I wish that I had had like one year to be
that like feminist badass that is probably in there.
But at the same time, I'm like, thank you for coming in with your cape.
Cause I think that would have been so much more heartbreaking. I don't, my like mad,

(01:18:16):
mad, mad respect to the mamas that, that do do it alone,
who don't have familial support and who don't have, you know,
a partner that can step in at just the perfect time and help,
you know, rescue all these things because it was hard enough for me,
but I really feel like I cheated.
Like I, like I somehow, I somehow got the cheat code.

(01:18:39):
So, but happiness can, you know, like, Oh,
one of the things I did want to, I want to make sure that I say to,
especially the other women that are listening is I was talking to a woman recently,
recently she's been married for give or take 40 years
and I realize it's
been a lot you know it's been a long time but she and she's but she's
in her late 50s and her husband is just

(01:19:02):
very narcissistic and not a wonderful man like
he doesn't put his hands on her or anything like that but he's just he a
lot of damage she's not just right but yes it's
not it's not good it's not good I mean
like he he checks a lot of you know a lot of the narcissist
boxes there's constant and gaslighting and all that
other stuff and it's a person that i'm really close to so i've had

(01:19:23):
a front row seat and so i just told told this person recently
i was like why don't you just you
can leave like you are way hard you're way smarter way like you're you're way
more smart and way more hard working and way hotter than you give yourself before
and she kind of laughed she kind of laughed and she was like you know thanks
and i was like no but i'm serious and she was like well honey i'm just gonna

(01:19:44):
have to stay with him because he's had my best years yeah.
And yeah, and it was, it was just, it really cut me. And I said,
you know, obviously I'm younger than you, but I said that too.
And, and so then reflecting on that, I was like, you know what?
Like I was only in my mid thirties when my divorce happened.
Of course, I was quote unquote young.

(01:20:06):
Of course I have so much life to live, but you know, I really felt like damaged,
washed up goods because again, once again,
here I was because, you know, I had stretch marks and
a mom bod and I had four children and who
the hell is gonna sign up for that I had no
you know no real career and no
resume and what like what was I gonna do he

(01:20:28):
had my best years and they felt stolen at that point they didn't before but
then they did you know they did when he when he quit and so like I was just
thinking about that I was like you know what we I feel like we all feel that
way when we've been going we we've been going along with that you know,
that like facade for so long. And we just think, well, I've given him all my good.

(01:20:50):
But the reality is you haven't. And there's still so much good.
Even if you're 90 years old, you could live another 10 years and you could live that 10 years happy.
There's so much life to live and you don't have to live it with someone who
treats you like garbage, who lies to you, who hides things, who hides money,
who does all of these things. You don't have to live that life.

(01:21:10):
You can and will be happier even if it doesn't seem possible right now.
Right. Exactly. Exactly. So, and I, I found myself in a way that I never expected
to, you know, when you, especially when you're in the trenches of motherhood,
you really do lose yourself. You lose your identity.
And I feel like I was finally able to dig her out and, and find her and,

(01:21:34):
you know, like the, and the just so much good stuff, which is why now I look
back in my early twenties and I'm like, honey, you had it. Like it was there.
It was right there. or you just, you know, there are the obstacles of that university
and the obstacles of abusive relationships and, you know, just,
you know, low self-esteem and all this other stuff.
I can't put it on any one thing, but, you know, and I created some of my own trauma.

(01:21:56):
Kind of the perfect storm because it's easy to look back.
I know for me, I've looked back and I can tell you exactly how I ended up where I did.
And like you, it wasn't one single factor. It was a whole bunch of different
factors that led me like little breadcrumbs that led me to where I am now.
And again, I wouldn't change it because I love my kids. And, but,

(01:22:18):
I would have loved to have my kids with a little bit less trauma too, though.
For sure. For sure. We'll put those in the notes for next time.
Make note, future B, however that works out. Let's not repeat this. This is a bummer.
Right.

(01:22:39):
Absolutely. Yeah. Well, thank you for coming on. Is there anything else that
you want to say or any other wisdom you want to leave people with?
Off the top of my head, no, I don't think so. Other than, you know,
just, you know, the whole like you are going to be okay and your kids are going to be okay.
And I know I say that, like I said that in the last one, and I feel like I say it all the time.

(01:23:00):
But we, you know, when we're first and foremost mamas, that's what we need to
hear, that our babies are going to be okay.
And they really will. I think that's going to be reassuring for a lot of people
because I know that I've spoken to several people and I know that I had these thoughts too.
And I'm sure we talked about it last time too, but we always think,
well, what about the kids? It's going to be so hard on the kids.

(01:23:22):
And the reality is it's better for the kids to see their mom healthy and happy and thriving.
Even if there's a bit of a rough patch in between, it's better for them.
Absolutely. Yeah.
Thank you for listening to What Lies Buried. If you have a story you'd like

(01:23:43):
to share, please check the episode description for a sign-up link.
And for those of you who want to share but don't want to come on the show, feel free to write in.
Your story will be told in future Listener Story Minisodes.
If you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe, rate, and review this podcast.
Your feedback helps us reach more listeners and create a supportive community.

(01:24:07):
If you or someone you know is experiencing emotional abuse, please reach out.
You deserve to be heard, believed, and supported.
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