What Moves Us - Building, Not Boasting: Rail Live Download on Data, UX and Interoperability

Liam is joined by friend of the pod, OpenTransport Initiative's Hayden Sutherland, to unpack three fast-moving themes from Rail Live in Madrid. They compare what was promised on stage with what is actually being built, digging into where agentic AI is useful, where it struggles with complex, high-stakes choices, and why good visual UX still beats long conversational lists. The pair link this to the hard graft behind the scenes, from data quality and APIs to cross-sector standards and interoperability, with a wry metro mishap reminding us that a capable human still matters. For startups, the takeaway is clear. Do fewer shiny demos and invest in richer, trustworthy data and integration so your product scales beyond an MVP.

railinnovationgroup.com

opentransport.co.uk

terrapinn.com/conference/rail-live/index.stm

 

Episode Transcript

Johannah Randall: Hello and welcome to What Moves Us, the podcast, where we ask (00:00):
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Johannah Randall: what moves us or more accurately, what's going to move (00:04):
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Johannah Randall: us in the future. (00:07):
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Johannah Randall: We look at debates, themes and decisions of the minute that (00:08):
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Johannah Randall: will impact on the way we get about in the future. (00:11):
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Liam Henderson: Hello and welcome to what Moves I'm Liam Henderson. (00:16):
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Liam Henderson: Uh, no. Johanna today, but (00:20):
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Liam Henderson: instead we have another (00:22):
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Liam Henderson: representative from Scotland, (00:24):
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Liam Henderson: Hayden Sutherland. (00:26):
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Liam Henderson: We were at Rail Live last week in Madrid, so I thought we'd (00:27):
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Liam Henderson: have a conversation about the things that we heard. (00:32):
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Liam Henderson: So continue listening. (00:34):
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Liam Henderson: Hello (00:37):
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Liam and Hayden: I'm Liam Henderson, and today I am speaking from London. (00:38):
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Liam and Hayden: and on the line with me today I have Hayden Sutherland, um, (00:42):
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Liam and Hayden: calling you from near Glasgow in, in sunny Scotland today. (00:47):
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Liam and Hayden: Excellent. (00:53):
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Liam and Hayden: Thanks for joining us. (00:53):
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Liam and Hayden: Hayden. (00:54):
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Liam and Hayden: Hayden and Liam obviously have a long history of doing different (00:55):
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Liam and Hayden: bits of work together and seeing each other, but we speak today (00:58):
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Liam and Hayden: because we were together last week in Madrid. (01:01):
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Liam and Hayden: Sunny but freezing cold. (01:05):
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Liam and Hayden: Madrid. (01:07):
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Liam and Hayden: It was, wasn't it? (01:08):
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Liam and Hayden: It was, but um, I'll say it was (01:09):
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Liam and Hayden: um, it was great to spend some (01:12):
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Liam and Hayden: time with you, um, and work and (01:14):
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Liam and Hayden: socialized together. (01:17):
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Liam and Hayden: Obviously. (01:18):
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Liam and Hayden: Mainly it was a work do from a (01:19):
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Liam and Hayden: um, from a corporate perspective (01:21):
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Liam and Hayden: and a company accounting (01:23):
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Liam and Hayden: perspective. (01:24):
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Liam and Hayden: But we did have a little bit of enjoyment as well on the side. (01:25):
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Liam and Hayden: Right. (01:28):
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Liam and Hayden: Nice caveat there. (01:28):
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Liam and Hayden: Yes, we were at real live, uh, Madrid. (01:30):
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Liam and Hayden: Um, which is I've been going to this event, uh, actually we did (01:33):
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Liam and Hayden: a podcast on it last year, um, for two years now. (01:37):
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Liam and Hayden: Um, and it brings together the (01:40):
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Liam and Hayden: community of railway, um, (01:41):
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Liam and Hayden: suppliers. (01:45):
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Liam and Hayden: And this year it wrapped in a (01:46):
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Liam and Hayden: commercial aspect to do with (01:48):
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Liam and Hayden: operations. (01:50):
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Liam and Hayden: So all are good time. (01:51):
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Liam and Hayden: But yeah, the event was, um, the (01:55):
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Liam and Hayden: event takes place over three (01:57):
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Liam and Hayden: days, Wednesday the twenty sixth (01:58):
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Liam and Hayden: to technically Friday the twenty (02:01):
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Liam and Hayden: eighth, although the main bits (02:03):
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Liam and Hayden: that we're involved with, uh, in (02:05):
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Liam and Hayden: rail live is on way to the (02:08):
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Liam and Hayden: twenty sixth and thirty, the (02:10):
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Liam and Hayden: twenty seventh, for those who (02:11):
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Liam and Hayden: don't know, it used to be, um, (02:13):
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Liam and Hayden: the World Passenger festival as (02:14):
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Liam and Hayden: well. (02:16):
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Liam and Hayden: That you first of all for um for quite some time was in (02:16):
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Liam and Hayden: Amsterdam, then for two years moved to Vienna. (02:19):
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Liam and Hayden: They have merged the World (02:22):
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Liam and Hayden: Passenger Festival and Rail live (02:24):
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Liam and Hayden: all in one event together in (02:26):
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Liam and Hayden: Madrid. (02:29):
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Liam and Hayden: And that was last week. (02:30):
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Liam and Hayden: So it was a coming together of (02:31):
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Liam and Hayden: people with sort of big sort of (02:33):
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Liam and Hayden: industrial, uh, rail technology (02:37):
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Liam and Hayden: and rail suppliers, along with (02:41):
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Liam and Hayden: more innovative startups, (02:43):
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Liam and Hayden: digital technology, (02:46):
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Liam and Hayden: communications and marketing and (02:48):
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Liam and Hayden: commercial. (02:50):
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Liam and Hayden: It was a heady mix of everybody (02:51):
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Liam and Hayden: who was anybody in the European (02:54):
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Liam and Hayden: rail industry. (02:55):
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Liam and Hayden: Right. (02:56):
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Liam and Hayden: That is the advert over. (02:57):
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Liam and Hayden: Okay. (03:05):
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Liam and Hayden: But I have to say, looking back over last week, it was a very (03:05):
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Liam and Hayden: enjoyable and intense learning experience, a great chance to (03:11):
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Liam and Hayden: meet, network and and also learn as I went as well. (03:16):
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Liam and Hayden: So I, I really got an awful lot from it. (03:20):
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Liam and Hayden: Now, you were one of the main MCs because LinkedIn is covered (03:23):
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Liam and Hayden: with pictures of you with panels, super panels, special (03:29):
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Liam and Hayden: guests and keynotes. (03:33):
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Liam and Hayden: Uh, so tell us about what you were doing. (03:34):
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Liam and Hayden: So, um, I, um, attend Real Live and I'm a host slash chair on (03:37):
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Liam and Hayden: one of their tracks. (03:45):
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Liam and Hayden: Actually, for those who don't know, there's different (03:47):
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Liam and Hayden: presentation areas around the periphery of the event. (03:49):
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Liam and Hayden: Uh, the huge, um, Hall and I was a host on Not Just one. (03:53):
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Liam and Hayden: Sometimes I darted across onto other tracks as well. (03:58):
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Liam and Hayden: And, um, on the end of the first (04:01):
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Liam and Hayden: day on Wednesday the twenty (04:04):
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Liam and Hayden: sixth, I hosted the keynote end (04:06):
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Liam and Hayden: of day keynote with, uh, some (04:09):
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Liam and Hayden: different people. (04:11):
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Liam and Hayden: So during the Wednesday I was on (04:12):
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Liam and Hayden: track three about digital (04:14):
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Liam and Hayden: transformation and technology, (04:16):
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Liam and Hayden: and then going across to the (04:18):
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Liam and Hayden: main keynote where I had all the (04:19):
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Liam and Hayden: chief execs, a four chief execs (04:21):
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Liam and Hayden: from Spanish Rail and Metro and (04:23):
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Liam and Hayden: underground. (04:28):
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Liam and Hayden: Yeah, underground Metro and um, and tram, uh, four of those, (04:28):
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Liam and Hayden: some really good chief execs who gave some really good insight. (04:33):
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Liam and Hayden: And then I was back into track three on Thursday and then (04:36):
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Liam and Hayden: across with you on track six, the commercial, uh, work stream. (04:40):
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Liam and Hayden: So in total, I spent two full (04:46):
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Liam and Hayden: days, uh, at Rail Live hosting, (04:49):
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Liam and Hayden: presenting and chairing and (04:53):
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Liam and Hayden: asking lots and lots of great (04:55):
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Liam and Hayden: questions. (04:56):
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Liam and Hayden: There's some great people that was quite, quite a I was quite (04:57):
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Liam and Hayden: tired by the end of it. (05:02):
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Liam and Hayden: Oh, yes. (05:04):
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Liam and Hayden: Um. And hungry I remember. (05:07):
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Liam and Hayden: Thank you very much. (05:10):
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Liam and Hayden: Those are I should actually say, at one point I was getting a bit (05:11):
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Liam and Hayden: hangry and Liam went and bought me a huge protein filled (05:15):
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Liam and Hayden: baguette and a sandwich and everything that, uh, kept their (05:19):
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Liam and Hayden: hangry wolves at bay. (05:22):
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Liam and Hayden: Thanks for that, Liam. (05:23):
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Liam and Hayden: No problems. (05:25):
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Liam and Hayden: Gotta keep gotta keep my contacts happy. (05:26):
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Liam and Hayden: Um, so my role there was, I was, uh, representing one of the (05:30):
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Liam and Hayden: companies in the investment community on the startup area. (05:36):
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Liam and Hayden: And then I will separately, I (05:41):
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Liam and Hayden: did the emceeing for track six, (05:42):
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Liam and Hayden: um, which was really interesting (05:46):
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Liam and Hayden: doing that because the section (05:48):
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Liam and Hayden: of presentations, one of them (05:50):
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Liam and Hayden: was about a small technical (05:51):
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Liam and Hayden: issue that had taken ten years (05:53):
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Liam and Hayden: to solve. (05:54):
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Liam and Hayden: I was like, how on earth did you have commitment for that? (05:56):
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Liam and Hayden: And this was, um, Oslo's airport train flytoget and an issue of (06:00):
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Liam and Hayden: allowing customers customer accounts to if they use (06:05):
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Liam and Hayden: contactless or the credit card, or if they booked in advance (06:10):
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Liam and Hayden: with a credit card which went through two different systems, (06:13):
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Liam and Hayden: is unifying those. (06:16):
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Liam and Hayden: So they actually had the (06:17):
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Liam and Hayden: customer account was in the same (06:18):
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Liam and Hayden: place. (06:20):
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Liam and Hayden: For some reason. (06:21):
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Liam and Hayden: It's taken ten years for them to find a technical fix for that. (06:22):
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Liam and Hayden: So sometimes it's sometimes it's (06:26):
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Liam and Hayden: getting a new perspective from (06:28):
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Liam and Hayden: somebody or somebody who's done (06:29):
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Liam and Hayden: it before and seen it done (06:30):
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Liam and Hayden: elsewhere. (06:32):
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Liam and Hayden: So I think that's a great thing (06:32):
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Liam and Hayden: when you just talk to people and (06:34):
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Liam and Hayden: somebody who solved something in (06:35):
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Liam and Hayden: a slightly different way, and (06:37):
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Liam and Hayden: you get to just get the chance (06:38):
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Liam and Hayden: to discuss something quite (06:39):
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Liam and Hayden: openly. (06:40):
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Liam and Hayden: Yes. (06:42):
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Liam and Hayden: So that was good. (06:43):
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Liam and Hayden: Um, but we can't obviously talk (06:44):
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Liam and Hayden: about last week without raising (06:47):
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Liam and Hayden: the buzzword of twenty twenty (06:50):
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Liam and Hayden: five agents. (06:52):
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Liam and Hayden: Hayden, have you got an agent? (06:56):
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Liam and Hayden: Um, have I got an agent? (06:58):
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Liam and Hayden: Uh, I don't, I mean, right, um, yeah. (07:00):
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Liam and Hayden: Artificial intelligence and (07:04):
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Liam and Hayden: agentic AI was really a huge (07:06):
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Liam and Hayden: topic in the more technology (07:10):
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Liam and Hayden: focused tracks from real life (07:12):
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Liam and Hayden: last week. (07:14):
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Liam and Hayden: Um, lots and lots of presentations. (07:15):
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Liam and Hayden: I was hosting one, uh, as you (07:18):
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Liam and Hayden: mentioned, a super panel of (07:20):
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Liam and Hayden: seven different European (07:23):
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Liam and Hayden: industry experts on, uh, on the (07:26):
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Liam and Hayden: topic, uh, from uh, Renfe, the (07:30):
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Liam and Hayden: Spanish operator, um, through to (07:33):
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Liam and Hayden: sort of, uh, different I mean, (07:36):
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Liam and Hayden: through to, uh, Accenture and (07:39):
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Liam and Hayden: uh, different and Talgo, the, (07:42):
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Liam and Hayden: um, the operator, the lots and (07:45):
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Liam and Hayden: lots of different people on my (07:48):
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Liam and Hayden: panel. (07:50):
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Liam and Hayden: The super panel where we talked about AI and Agentic AI, but not (07:50):
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Liam and Hayden: just, oh, wouldn't it be good, but about the actual benefits. (07:55):
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Liam and Hayden: It comes from a value (07:59):
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Liam and Hayden: perspective, from a cost and (08:00):
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Liam and Hayden: efficiency perspective and a and (08:02):
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Liam and Hayden: a customer experience (08:05):
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Liam and Hayden: perspective. (08:06):
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Liam and Hayden: So it was people who'd actually done it and used it. (08:07):
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Liam and Hayden: That was a really that was the super panel. (08:12):
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Liam and Hayden: So that was myself and seven others, eight people in total on (08:14):
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Liam and Hayden: stage, uh, talking about, uh, AI and its benefits. (08:17):
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Liam and Hayden: So it was it was a real good cross section of people who'd (08:22):
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Liam and Hayden: actually been there, seen it and done it to a certain extent. (08:26):
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Liam and Hayden: Yeah, that was great. (08:29):
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Liam and Hayden: The other one was towards the end of the second day, um, was (08:30):
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Liam and Hayden: all around, uh, talking about the same sorts of topic, but (08:34):
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Liam and Hayden: more around chatbots. (08:38):
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Liam and Hayden: So they agentic and chatbots, uh, including people from SNCF (08:40):
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Liam and Hayden: voyages and uh, and Arriva Rail in the UK. (08:44):
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Liam and Hayden: So yes, lots of discussions about it. (08:48):
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Liam and Hayden: It wasn't just, oh, wouldn't it be nice to have people are (08:52):
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Liam and Hayden: actually doing something and addressing the key challenges (08:55):
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Liam and Hayden: they've had from the different use of large language models (08:57):
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Liam and Hayden: through to, how they scale up their their AI technology (09:01):
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Liam and Hayden: valuable for those in the audience, I think. (09:07):
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Liam and Hayden: Yes. (09:11):
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Liam and Hayden: Uh, I think given that a lot of (09:12):
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Liam and Hayden: our audience on this podcast may (09:14):
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Liam and Hayden: be startups or small digital (09:16):
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Liam and Hayden: companies. (09:17):
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Liam and Hayden: Um. I felt when I was walking around listening to that was (09:18):
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Liam and Hayden: very difficult to work out, actually, what the real (09:24):
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Liam and Hayden: customers were looking to buy because they were effectively. (09:26):
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Liam and Hayden: From my observation, a lot of them were putting Agentic (09:34):
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Liam and Hayden: technology on top of their existing platforms and either (09:38):
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Liam and Hayden: using it for customer interaction or not. (09:42):
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Liam and Hayden: But if you're a small supplier (09:46):
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Liam and Hayden: is where are the opportunities (09:48):
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Liam and Hayden: or what actually does the market (09:49):
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Liam and Hayden: need from the Agentic technology (09:51):
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Liam and Hayden: wave or. (09:55):
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Liam and Hayden: Yeah. (09:56):
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Liam and Hayden: So those don't know. (09:56):
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Liam and Hayden: I mean, obviously everybody talks about AI and AI. (09:58):
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Liam and Hayden: Just to clarify, AI is one thing, as in a a big load of (10:01):
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Liam and Hayden: memory that's turned everything in and processed it and tries to (10:07):
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Liam and Hayden: make sense of it. (10:10):
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Liam and Hayden: An agent is something that is human facing, that acts on a (10:12):
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Liam and Hayden: human's and customer's behalf and goes off and does various (10:18):
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Liam and Hayden: tasks, either in real time or slightly delayed, uh, and goes (10:23):
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Liam and Hayden: off and does those tasks and comes back and says either it's (10:27):
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Liam and Hayden: done them or it hasn't. (10:31):
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Liam and Hayden: Whatever it is now, um, we can talk a little later about, um, (10:32):
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Liam and Hayden: when an AI or an AI agent is useful and when it's not. (10:38):
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Liam and Hayden: I have my own hypothesis. (10:44):
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Liam and Hayden: Uh, on when, uh, an agent is (10:46):
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Liam and Hayden: useful and when it's less (10:49):
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Liam and Hayden: useful. (10:50):
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Liam and Hayden: Um, and, uh, I'm just in the (10:51):
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Liam and Hayden: process of crafting a sort of (10:54):
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Liam and Hayden: diagram to explain a little (10:56):
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Liam and Hayden: more, because I'm techie and I'm (10:57):
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Liam and Hayden: talking boxes and arrows, as you (10:59):
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Liam and Hayden: know. (11:00):
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Liam and Hayden: Yes. (11:01):
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Liam and Hayden: Well, we did have this (11:02):
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Liam and Hayden: discussion on the way to the (11:02):
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Liam and Hayden: airport where we were imagining (11:03):
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Liam and Hayden: a table. (11:06):
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Liam and Hayden: Yes. (11:07):
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Liam and Hayden: I mean, we've talked about that agentic AI is can be currently (11:08):
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Liam and Hayden: it's in its early days. (11:13):
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Liam and Hayden: I mean, you've only really it's only been around for as a term (11:15):
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Liam and Hayden: really for a year. (11:18):
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Liam and Hayden: Less than a year. (11:19):
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Liam and Hayden: A year or so. (11:20):
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Liam and Hayden: And, um, in our opinion, my opinion, your opinion, a an (11:21):
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Liam and Hayden: agent is perhaps good at doing things that are, um, less (11:27):
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Liam and Hayden: complex right now. (11:33):
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Liam and Hayden: Um, and giving you some options back. (11:35):
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Liam and Hayden: Uh, for example, um, do you want to buy the blue t shirt or the (11:37):
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Liam and Hayden: green t shirt? (11:41):
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Liam and Hayden: And coming back simply if it knows your size. (11:42):
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Liam and Hayden: And so do you want to get it now? (11:44):
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Liam and Hayden: The problem comes in when you (11:46):
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Liam and Hayden: want to say I want a a super (11:49):
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Liam and Hayden: hyper flexi return, uh, via (11:53):
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Liam and Hayden: Manchester, or I'm getting the (11:55):
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Liam and Hayden: bus at the end, please, at the (11:58):
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Liam and Hayden: same time. (11:59):
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Liam and Hayden: And I want to go on Thursday. (12:00):
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Liam and Hayden: Um, and, uh, I want a seat (12:01):
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Liam and Hayden: that's facing the other way with (12:04):
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Liam and Hayden: the power socket on if there (12:06):
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Liam and Hayden: isn't one. (12:07):
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Liam and Hayden: Can I sit near the door, please? (12:08):
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Liam and Hayden: Um, you can see I'm already (12:09):
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Liam and Hayden: constructing a very complex (12:11):
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Liam and Hayden: scenario or query for the agent, (12:14):
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Liam and Hayden: and then for it to come back (12:17):
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Liam and Hayden: with thirty two different (12:18):
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Liam and Hayden: options and to recite those (12:19):
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Liam and Hayden: back, um, even just the ones (12:21):
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Liam and Hayden: it's found by the time it gets (12:23):
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Liam and Hayden: to. (12:25):
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Liam and Hayden: By the time it gets to six, your (12:26):
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Liam and Hayden: short term memory is already (12:27):
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Liam and Hayden: forgotten. (12:28):
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Liam and Hayden: Number one was already so um, and to to to verbally describe, (12:29):
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Liam and Hayden: I think I have to verbally describe back isn't a good thing (12:35):
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Liam and Hayden: to for a more complex product. (12:39):
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Liam and Hayden: Um, it's, it's an added dimension. (12:41):
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Liam and Hayden: When you set an AI agent off to (12:44):
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Liam and Hayden: go and buy something more (12:46):
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Liam and Hayden: expensive, because if you give (12:47):
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Liam and Hayden: it permission to go off and buy (12:49):
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Liam and Hayden: something and it spends hundreds (12:50):
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Liam and Hayden: of pounds on your behalf and (12:51):
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Liam and Hayden: it's the wrong thing again, (12:53):
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Liam and Hayden: You're, um. (12:55):
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Liam and Hayden: You're in a bit of a pickle. (12:56):
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Liam and Hayden: So there is a graph that says complexity up one axis and price (12:58):
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Liam and Hayden: along the other. (13:03):
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Liam and Hayden: The more you go into that top right hand corner, so to speak, (13:04):
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Liam and Hayden: the the less likely you are to want to use AI in our opinion. (13:07):
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Liam and Hayden: Um, so I if I'm absolutely (13:13):
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Liam and Hayden: honest, that's our hypothesis (13:16):
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Liam and Hayden: right now. (13:18):
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Liam and Hayden: But, um, I think we'd need to prove out which one of those (13:19):
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Liam and Hayden: which one of those axes. (13:22):
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Liam and Hayden: You need to sort of look at. (13:23):
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Liam and Hayden: Agentic AI where's the sweet spot for it? (13:25):
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Liam and Hayden: And where's the where does it (13:27):
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Liam and Hayden: start to become less useful to (13:28):
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Liam and Hayden: the human? (13:31):
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Liam and Hayden: Sorry, I wittered on a bit there, but does that explain (13:32):
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Liam and Hayden: where I think. (13:35):
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Liam and Hayden: Where are we going? (13:36):
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Liam and Hayden: Yes. (13:37):
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Liam and Hayden: I mean, we had this conversation last week, so I understand what (13:38):
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Liam and Hayden: you're saying because we were talking about it. (13:40):
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Liam and Hayden: Uh, I think just to ground that in, uh, experience for people is (13:43):
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Liam and Hayden: a lot of the examples last week were using conversational (13:48):
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Liam and Hayden: interfaces with agents. (13:51):
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Liam and Hayden: So you'd talk to an agent either through the phone or your other (13:52):
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Liam and Hayden: voice assistant, and then it would come back and answer your (13:57):
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Liam and Hayden: question, which is fine. (14:00):
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Liam and Hayden: If you want to say, I'm going to (14:01):
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Liam and Hayden: Bristol, is there a toilet in (14:03):
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Liam and Hayden: Bristol? (14:05):
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Liam and Hayden: Yes. (14:06):
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Liam and Hayden: No. Uh, or yes on platform six. (14:06):
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Liam and Hayden: But yes, in your ticketing (14:09):
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Liam and Hayden: example is reciting back all (14:11):
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Liam and Hayden: those things is very difficult (14:13):
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Liam and Hayden: and you almost have to to to (14:16):
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Liam and Hayden: which is funny because that is (14:20):
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Liam and Hayden: what the, the best case of (14:22):
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Liam and Hayden: agents is being used for is to (14:24):
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Liam and Hayden: remove that pain of buying (14:25):
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Liam and Hayden: complicated tickets and that the (14:27):
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Liam and Hayden: agent do it for you, but you'd (14:29):
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Liam and Hayden: have to prompt the agent with so (14:32):
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Liam and Hayden: much information and caveats and (14:35):
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Liam and Hayden: then trust it to buy the right (14:38):
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Liam and Hayden: thing. (14:39):
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Liam and Hayden: And I certainly know that when I rely on a system, I know the (14:40):
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Liam and Hayden: rail network better. (14:45):
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Liam and Hayden: So I will always want to buy the thing I want to buy. (14:46):
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Liam and Hayden: Yeah. (14:49):
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Liam and Hayden: And then we have the (14:50):
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Liam and Hayden: complication as complications I (14:51):
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Liam and Hayden: was having with you is, if you (14:52):
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Liam and Hayden: imagine currently you work even (14:54):
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Liam and Hayden: if you were doing this, are in a (14:56):
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Liam and Hayden: chat interface on your laptop or (15:01):
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Liam and Hayden: whatever. (15:04):
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Liam and Hayden: You know when you use ChatGPT or something, it comes back to you (15:05):
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Liam and Hayden: with text or a table. (15:08):
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Liam and Hayden: Whereas when you actually buy (15:11):
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Liam and Hayden: tickets, you need that graphic (15:12):
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Liam and Hayden: thing with like a big price (15:14):
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Liam and Hayden: point. (15:15):
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Liam and Hayden: And then what's the difference between this one and this one (15:16):
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Liam and Hayden: and how do they interact? (15:18):
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Liam and Hayden: And that graphic layout that I (15:19):
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Liam and Hayden: don't think is available from an (15:22):
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Liam and Hayden: agent yet. (15:23):
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Liam and Hayden: But we spend an awful lot of (15:25):
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Liam and Hayden: time in the, uh, in the online (15:26):
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Liam and Hayden: rail booking and transport (15:29):
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Liam and Hayden: booking, uh, industry, trying to (15:30):
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Liam and Hayden: craft the best user experience (15:33):
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Liam and Hayden: that tries to explain complex (15:35):
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Liam and Hayden: things and make them as simple (15:37):
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Liam and Hayden: as possible. (15:38):
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Liam and Hayden: And what we're going to do is going to say, right, I'm going (15:39):
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Liam and Hayden: to give you back a table at the best or the worst, I'm going to (15:41):
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Liam and Hayden: start recite sixteen different versions of the different, (15:44):
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Liam and Hayden: slightly different ticket and expect you to To remember what (15:46):
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Liam and Hayden: it is that I've told you. (15:50):
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Liam and Hayden: Those just for those. (15:52):
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Liam and Hayden: Oh, no. I mean, um, just just to (15:53):
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Liam and Hayden: talk a little bit about sort of (15:55):
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Liam and Hayden: human memory. (15:57):
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Liam and Hayden: Just a quick bit. (15:58):
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Liam and Hayden: If I remember the old parlour game parlour game of the tray (15:59):
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Liam and Hayden: with all the different objects on it that grandma used to have (16:02):
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Liam and Hayden: and then used to cover it over and then ask you to remember one (16:05):
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Liam and Hayden: of those all those different things that were on the tray. (16:09):
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Liam and Hayden: On average, your brain will remember seven things. (16:12):
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Liam and Hayden: It's kind of like the generation game. (16:16):
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Liam and Hayden: For those who are old enough to remember the generation game, (16:18):
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Liam and Hayden: you can remember seven things. (16:21):
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Liam and Hayden: Plus the cuddly toy that were on there or whatever it was. (16:22):
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Liam and Hayden: People after about seven or eight people's memory, short (16:25):
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Liam and Hayden: term memory, very quickly can't remember what else there is. (16:29):
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Liam and Hayden: So if you give somebody seven pieces of information, if you (16:32):
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Liam and Hayden: forget, if you've given them another one and another one, (16:35):
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Liam and Hayden: they're less likely to remember what the first one was. (16:38):
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Liam and Hayden: It's why when telephone numbers went from nine digits to ten (16:40):
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Liam and Hayden: digits, a lot of people forgot their own telephone number. (16:43):
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Liam and Hayden: Short term memory is not great. (16:45):
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Liam and Hayden: It's good for short. (16:48):
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Liam and Hayden: More things, like things that are on your hand. (16:49):
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Liam and Hayden: Number of things. (16:51):
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Liam and Hayden: But you give them ten things to remember and they can't. (16:52):
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Liam and Hayden: So give them ten pieces of data coming back. (16:55):
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Liam and Hayden: And a lot of people won't (16:58):
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Liam and Hayden: remember what they've what you (17:00):
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Liam and Hayden: got told. (17:01):
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Liam and Hayden: So a conversational interface is not great and a visual interface (17:02):
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Liam and Hayden: is far better. (17:06):
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Liam and Hayden: The only problem is if you've got a chat interface and you're (17:08):
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Liam and Hayden: talking with it like when you're driving or when you're, uh, (17:10):
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Liam and Hayden: you're on the literally on the train and you want to get the (17:13):
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Liam and Hayden: next train and you want to say, can you book it ahead? (17:15):
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Liam and Hayden: That's not a great user interface. (17:18):
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Liam and Hayden: And you might have to use a combination of the two. (17:20):
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Liam and Hayden: Um, as I said, the more complex the product, the less likely you (17:22):
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Liam and Hayden: are to trust an agent, uh, to do that for you. (17:26):
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Liam and Hayden: But, yeah, perhaps we should do (17:31):
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Liam and Hayden: a bit of research, Liam, and (17:33):
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Liam and Hayden: find out where people start to (17:35):
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Liam and Hayden: sort of fade off and fall off (17:38):
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Liam and Hayden: when they come with trusting (17:40):
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Liam and Hayden: agents. (17:42):
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Liam and Hayden: Perhaps that's a useful piece of research to do. (17:42):
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Liam and Hayden: I think that is a very useful piece of research. (17:46):
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Liam and Hayden: I think there's already probably (17:48):
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Liam and Hayden: some reveal preference, but not (17:50):
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Liam and Hayden: necessarily the agent, but for (17:51):
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Liam and Hayden: the price point, because again, (17:52):
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Liam and Hayden: we always come back to the (17:55):
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Liam and Hayden: example, people are quite happy (17:56):
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Liam and Hayden: using contactless payments for (17:57):
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Liam and Hayden: metro systems because they know (17:59):
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Liam and Hayden: the most fares ever going to be (18:00):
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Liam and Hayden: is, you know, ten, fifteen (18:02):
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Liam and Hayden: pounds, whereas people are (18:04):
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Liam and Hayden: really, really hesitant to use (18:06):
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Liam and Hayden: contactless on National Rail (18:07):
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Liam and Hayden: because the maximum fare could (18:09):
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Liam and Hayden: be nine hundred and eighty (18:11):
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Liam and Hayden: pounds. (18:12):
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Liam and Hayden: Yeah. (18:13):
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Liam and Hayden: It's kind of that gambling, what (18:14):
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Liam and Hayden: you're prepared to lose or what (18:16):
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Liam and Hayden: you're prepared to make a (18:17):
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Liam and Hayden: mistake with. (18:18):
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Liam and Hayden: I could make a mistake with buying a ticket. (18:18):
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Liam and Hayden: There was a difference of five (18:20):
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Liam and Hayden: pounds, but if I was to give it (18:21):
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Liam and Hayden: my total account and say, go and (18:23):
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Liam and Hayden: buy me an airfare, uh, go find (18:26):
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Liam and Hayden: me the cheapest airfare to, I (18:29):
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Liam and Hayden: don't know, New York from (18:30):
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Liam and Hayden: Glasgow. (18:31):
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Liam and Hayden: Um, would I trust it with three four five six seven hundred (18:32):
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Liam and Hayden: pounds worth of flight to make book for me? (18:38):
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Liam and Hayden: I might want to do it myself. (18:42):
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Liam and Hayden: If only the fact that I might (18:44):
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Liam and Hayden: just want to have a little bit (18:46):
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Liam and Hayden: more trust. (18:47):
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Liam and Hayden: I might not trust it to do that. (18:48):
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Liam and Hayden: And if it was wrong, getting refunds is even worse. (18:50):
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Liam and Hayden: So maybe there's maybe we have to look at the terms and (18:54):
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Liam and Hayden: conditions of refunds. (18:56):
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Liam and Hayden: If things are bought differently (18:57):
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Liam and Hayden: with humans and agents, maybe (18:58):
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Liam and Hayden: the refund policy might have to (19:00):
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Liam and Hayden: be changed. (19:01):
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Liam and Hayden: Yes. (19:03):
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Liam and Hayden: Good luck with that one. (19:04):
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Liam and Hayden: Um, good. (19:07):
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Liam and Hayden: I didn't book it. (19:08):
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Liam and Hayden: My agent did. (19:09):
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Liam and Hayden: Ah, yeah, but your agent booked it on your behalf. (19:10):
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Liam and Hayden: Ah, yeah, but it was having a hallucination day that day. (19:12):
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Liam and Hayden: Yeah. (19:15):
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Liam and Hayden: Can I have my money back, please? (19:15):
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Liam and Hayden: Well, it brings us on to two more items which will come up. (19:17):
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Liam and Hayden: And they were pushed into the public debate last week. (19:21):
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Liam and Hayden: But I think we have I, I am (19:25):
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Liam and Hayden: certainly not not sure of the (19:27):
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Liam and Hayden: answers to these two things is (19:29):
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Liam and Hayden: one is. (19:30):
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Liam and Hayden: Uh, we rely if you're in the (19:33):
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Liam and Hayden: case of an agent or in the case (19:37):
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Liam and Hayden: of outsourcing systems is for (19:38):
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Liam and Hayden: people. (19:41):
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Liam and Hayden: People have intuitive knowledge (19:43):
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Liam and Hayden: of a system, and that always (19:44):
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Liam and Hayden: influences the way they buy (19:46):
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Liam and Hayden: things. (19:47):
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Liam and Hayden: If you just do it based on the data available in an agent or a (19:47):
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Liam and Hayden: conversational AI, that system has to rely on what it can find, (19:51):
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Liam and Hayden: which is not the same as what you already know, because you (19:57):
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Liam and Hayden: kind of know the system. (20:00):
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Liam and Hayden: Yes. (20:02):
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Liam and Hayden: Um, whether that's I like this train company or I know the main (20:03):
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Liam and Hayden: station, Edinburgh, is actually called Waverley, not Edinburgh. (20:07):
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Liam and Hayden: Um, you sort of pick up these (20:12):
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Liam and Hayden: life experiences which you won't (20:15):
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Liam and Hayden: have. (20:18):
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Liam and Hayden: Um, and that then comes to many other things. (20:19):
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Liam and Hayden: We just implicitly know a journey on an intercity train is (20:22):
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Liam and Hayden: probably nicer because it's just got more facilities. (20:24):
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Liam and Hayden: Yeah, it's better. (20:27):
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Liam and Hayden: It's better out the window and it's more scenic, so to speak. (20:28):
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Liam and Hayden: Yes, but those data feeds are not presented in a way that is (20:31):
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Liam and Hayden: useful to an agent. (20:36):
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Liam and Hayden: We know that some companies are developing those. (20:37):
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Liam and Hayden: And then the other point is with (20:40):
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Liam and Hayden: all this interface, this is the (20:42):
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Liam and Hayden: world where you seem to be more (20:44):
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Liam and Hayden: expert on in me is actually the (20:46):
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Liam and Hayden: data flows between organizations (20:48):
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Liam and Hayden: to allow this world of seamless (20:51):
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Liam and Hayden: travel. (20:54):
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Liam and Hayden: Because I, I tend to focus on the world of seamless travel (20:55):
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Liam and Hayden: from the customer point of view. (20:57):
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Liam and Hayden: But there is a whole back end (20:59):
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Liam and Hayden: systems that need to facilitate (21:00):
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Liam and Hayden: and talk to each other across (21:02):
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Liam and Hayden: all the modes and across (21:03):
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Liam and Hayden: countries. (21:04):
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Liam and Hayden: Well, I kind of think, are they (21:07):
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Liam and Hayden: really two sides of the same (21:09):
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Liam and Hayden: coin? (21:10):
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Liam and Hayden: One is sort of the data and the quality of that you use to train (21:11):
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Liam and Hayden: your AI on. (21:16):
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Liam and Hayden: Um, so in other words, do you, you know, do you trust it from (21:18):
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Liam and Hayden: you, the trusted data sources? (21:22):
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Liam and Hayden: Do you use modern data sources (21:24):
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Liam and Hayden: that it can go and get more (21:26):
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Liam and Hayden: updates quickly? (21:27):
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Liam and Hayden: Or, you know, AI integrate far easier, far easier to integrate (21:28):
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Liam and Hayden: with, uh, than, uh, we say, text files or those sorts of things (21:35):
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Liam and Hayden: and the quality of those. (21:38):
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Liam and Hayden: Um, there it's I think that's all part of it. (21:41):
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Liam and Hayden: An awful lot of people, especially in the transport (21:44):
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Liam and Hayden: world, still haven't got their act together as far as data (21:46):
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Liam and Hayden: quality and the, uh, the modernization of their data. (21:50):
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Liam and Hayden: Um, so, you know, as I say, an (21:55):
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Liam and Hayden: API means you can sort of eat (21:58):
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Liam and Hayden: little bits at a time, nibble at (22:00):
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Liam and Hayden: the data, and get up to frequent (22:02):
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Liam and Hayden: updates on it, rather than sort (22:04):
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Liam and Hayden: of huge sort of firehose or lots (22:06):
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Liam and Hayden: of text files and all that sort (22:08):
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Liam and Hayden: of stuff. (22:09):
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Liam and Hayden: So data, uh, and integration and (22:10):
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Liam and Hayden: data sources, the amount of (22:14):
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Liam and Hayden: data, the richness of data and (22:16):
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Liam and Hayden: the quality of that data and how (22:17):
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Liam and Hayden: they're integrated, it's all one (22:19):
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Liam and Hayden: related topic. (22:22):
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Liam and Hayden: And I'm still seeing huge amounts of legacy systems, uh, (22:23):
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Liam and Hayden: some back end systems that are not API first or modern ways of (22:31):
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Liam and Hayden: getting that data, or even some data are still beyond use. (22:36):
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Liam and Hayden: Um, the rail sector is improving. (22:41):
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Liam and Hayden: And, you know, I'm going to give a big shout out to my RDG pals (22:44):
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Liam and Hayden: on the rail data marketplace because that thing is huge. (22:48):
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Liam and Hayden: It's growing exponentially. (22:52):
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Liam and Hayden: And the amount of data sources and the amount of people it's (22:54):
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Liam and Hayden: connecting, it's really, really proving to be a huge asset (22:57):
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Liam and Hayden: across the rail sector. (23:01):
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Liam and Hayden: But there's still an awful lot (23:03):
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Liam and Hayden: of data that is in different (23:05):
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Liam and Hayden: standards, in different formats, (23:07):
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Liam and Hayden: done by different people, in (23:09):
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Liam and Hayden: different ways, updated in (23:10):
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Liam and Hayden: different manners all over the (23:11):
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Liam and Hayden: place. (23:13):
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Liam and Hayden: Um, and it's not joined up and consistent as well. (23:13):
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Liam and Hayden: So sorry. (23:17):
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Liam and Hayden: That is in my opinion, that's what I've seen. (23:18):
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Liam and Hayden: That's my experience. (23:21):
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Liam and Hayden: And uh, we have a we're doing (23:22):
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Liam and Hayden: well, but we're not doing great (23:24):
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Liam and Hayden: yet. (23:25):
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Liam and Hayden: Yes. (23:27):
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Liam and Hayden: So is is there I mean, I know the answer to this, but I'm (23:28):
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Liam and Hayden: prompting you for the answer. (23:34):
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Liam and Hayden: Is there work going on to (23:36):
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Liam and Hayden: establish standards for data in (23:38):
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Liam and Hayden: rail? (23:40):
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Liam and Hayden: Uh, well, the rail is full of standards. (23:41):
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Liam and Hayden: Um, and is there consistency in those? (23:44):
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Liam and Hayden: To a certain extent? (23:48):
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Liam and Hayden: No. And especially making sure (23:49):
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Liam and Hayden: it's aligned with, um, with (23:50):
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Liam and Hayden: other modes of transport as (23:54):
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Liam and Hayden: well. (23:55):
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Liam and Hayden: Um, you know, that sort of I'm a key one on. (23:56):
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Liam and Hayden: So implementing some new (24:01):
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Liam and Hayden: standards, my, my open transport (24:02):
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Liam and Hayden: work where we're talking about (24:04):
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Liam and Hayden: smart data in the transport (24:06):
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Liam and Hayden: sector, but still, um, (24:07):
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Liam and Hayden: different. (24:10):
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Liam and Hayden: And it's not just the transport sector. (24:10):
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Liam and Hayden: We describe things in a (24:13):
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Liam and Hayden: different way in the transport (24:14):
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Liam and Hayden: sector to how different sectors (24:15):
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Liam and Hayden: describe things. (24:17):
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Liam and Hayden: You know, a road, for example, where a tram goes over the top (24:19):
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Liam and Hayden: is described by a tram company in one way, in data. (24:22):
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Liam and Hayden: It's described by a civil (24:26):
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Liam and Hayden: engineering company as a (24:28):
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Liam and Hayden: different way. (24:29):
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Liam and Hayden: It's described by a bus company in a different way. (24:30):
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Liam and Hayden: And depending on which country you're from, it can have a (24:33):
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Liam and Hayden: different format there. (24:35):
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Liam and Hayden: Um, so are we ever going to get to a complete standardization? (24:37):
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Liam and Hayden: Perhaps not, but the I think an (24:43):
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Liam and Hayden: awful lot of people are seeing (24:46):
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Liam and Hayden: the value now in becoming (24:47):
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Liam and Hayden: translators between one format (24:48):
undefined

Liam and Hayden: to another, one way of (24:51):
undefined

Liam and Hayden: describing it. (24:52):
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Liam and Hayden: You know, we talk about smart (24:53):
undefined

Liam and Hayden: cities, um, the smart cities (24:54):
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Liam and Hayden: sector, which is different from (24:56):
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Liam and Hayden: the transport sector, but we all (24:57):
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Liam and Hayden: use the same geography and we (24:59):
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Liam and Hayden: all have different ways of (25:01):
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Liam and Hayden: describing it. (25:02):
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Liam and Hayden: So there is a huge. (25:03):
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Liam and Hayden: Sometimes perhaps there is still (25:05):
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Liam and Hayden: going to be a need for (25:07):
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Liam and Hayden: translators of those data (25:08):
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Liam and Hayden: between sectors, because you're (25:10):
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Liam and Hayden: not going to have one data model (25:11):
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Liam and Hayden: to rule them all across every (25:13):
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Liam and Hayden: single sector. (25:15):
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Liam and Hayden: You know, a transaction in rail (25:16):
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Liam and Hayden: bookings is in one format, but a (25:19):
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Liam and Hayden: transaction that relates to a (25:21):
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Liam and Hayden: bank account, it needs a (25:23):
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Liam and Hayden: different set of data and a (25:24):
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Liam and Hayden: different sort of data model (25:25):
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Liam and Hayden: behind it. (25:27):
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Liam and Hayden: So translators are needed across all sectors to make sure we have (25:28):
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Liam and Hayden: cross sector interoperability. (25:32):
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Liam and Hayden: So I didn't answer. (25:36):
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Liam and Hayden: You say, do we have one standard? (25:36):
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Liam and Hayden: I don't ever think we're going (25:38):
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Liam and Hayden: to get to one standard, because (25:39):
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Liam and Hayden: as soon as you start to look at (25:41):
undefined

Liam and Hayden: this for the data from a (25:42):
undefined

Liam and Hayden: different perspective, it's kind (25:44):
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Liam and Hayden: of like cutting up an orange, (25:46):
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Liam and Hayden: really. (25:47):
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Liam and Hayden: If you cut it from a different (25:47):
undefined

Liam and Hayden: way, the orange looks very (25:48):
undefined

Liam and Hayden: different. (25:49):
undefined

Liam and Hayden: It looks like segments or or whatever it is. (25:50):
undefined

Liam and Hayden: It looks very different (25:52):
undefined

Liam and Hayden: depending on the way you cut (25:53):
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Liam and Hayden: that orange. (25:54):
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Liam and Hayden: And I think different sectors (25:55):
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Liam and Hayden: are cutting the data in (25:57):
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Liam and Hayden: different ways. (25:58):
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Liam and Hayden: The translation comes in (25:59):
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Liam and Hayden: understanding it's an orange (26:00):
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Liam and Hayden: right. (26:03):
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Liam and Hayden: And is it orange. (26:05):
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Liam and Hayden: Yes. (26:07):
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Liam and Hayden: Right. (26:07):
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Liam and Hayden: Yes it is. (26:08):
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Liam and Hayden: Right. (26:11):
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Liam and Hayden: So you do have optimism from the things you've learned last week (26:11):
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Liam and Hayden: that the industry is getting a handle on these things? (26:14):
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Liam and Hayden: Oh, I think it's, it's slowly but surely and I think the UK is (26:19):
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Liam and Hayden: one of those. (26:23):
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Liam and Hayden: It's actually kind of leading the way. (26:24):
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Liam and Hayden: I know that there are others (26:25):
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Liam and Hayden: like countries like, uh, the (26:26):
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Liam and Hayden: Baltics, Estonia. (26:29):
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Liam and Hayden: A hugely amazing, uh, forward. (26:31):
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Liam and Hayden: And, uh, in the Nordics, um, uh, (26:35):
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Liam and Hayden: you've got, um, they've they've (26:39):
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Liam and Hayden: got a huge sort of drive to, (26:41):
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Liam and Hayden: towards sort of standardization (26:44):
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Liam and Hayden: across multiple modes of (26:46):
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Liam and Hayden: transport. (26:47):
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Liam and Hayden: They're doing good stuff, great (26:48):
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Liam and Hayden: stuff, and they're leading the (26:50):
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Liam and Hayden: way. (26:51):
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Liam and Hayden: Uh, other other countries and other markets are behind. (26:52):
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Liam and Hayden: But I think the UK is, is has, (26:56):
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Liam and Hayden: is getting its act together data (26:59):
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Liam and Hayden: wise. (27:01):
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Liam and Hayden: And that is really useful because we're going to get more (27:02):
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Liam and Hayden: into this ancient AI world where you're going to have multiple (27:05):
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Liam and Hayden: agents to go and do multiple things, and they're going to (27:11):
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Liam and Hayden: need to be trained or go and look up these data sources. (27:13):
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Liam and Hayden: They're going to want to go off and get those. (27:17):
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Liam and Hayden: So really it's not going to be who's got the best agent in the (27:19):
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Liam and Hayden: future, who's got the best data behind those agents. (27:22):
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Liam and Hayden: And they're fueling those market (27:25):
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Liam and Hayden: competitiveness may be who's got (27:28):
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Liam and Hayden: the best and more robust and (27:30):
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Liam and Hayden: trustworthy data sources behind (27:31):
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Liam and Hayden: the scenes, rather than who's (27:33):
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Liam and Hayden: got the best shiny, shiny agent (27:35):
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Liam and Hayden: right now? (27:36):
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Liam and Hayden: In my opinion, yes. (27:37):
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Liam and Hayden: And I'm just going back to the front end of that. (27:39):
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Liam and Hayden: Is funny how my memory one of the questions I had, which I was (27:41):
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Liam and Hayden: found unfathomable, was a couple of the larger state owned (27:48):
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Liam and Hayden: operators in continental Europe were building agents or talking (27:53):
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Liam and Hayden: about how good their agents were, because they'd linked up (27:58):
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Liam and Hayden: all their back end systems to sell through journeys, but they (28:00):
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Liam and Hayden: were only selling journeys on their own trains. (28:04):
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Liam and Hayden: Yes. (28:07):
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Liam and Hayden: The European regulation that requires them to accept other (28:08):
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Liam and Hayden: people's trains onto their network, they're not selling (28:12):
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Liam and Hayden: tickets to those. (28:14):
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Liam and Hayden: So you're effectively saying, (28:16):
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Liam and Hayden: come to us if you want to buy (28:17):
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Liam and Hayden: these tickets, but if you (28:19):
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Liam and Hayden: actually want a full picture of (28:22):
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Liam and Hayden: all the trains available, we're (28:24):
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Liam and Hayden: going. (28:26):
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Liam and Hayden: We're almost forcing you to go (28:26):
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Liam and Hayden: to a third party retailer or (28:28):
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Liam and Hayden: phone or. (28:31):
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Liam and Hayden: Hang on a second. (28:32):
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Liam and Hayden: I'm contacting human now, which is the whole point, really? (28:32):
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Liam and Hayden: Sort of. (28:36):
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Liam and Hayden: Yeah. (28:37):
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Liam and Hayden: Um, one of the comments was, um, are we just training the agents (28:37):
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Liam and Hayden: to say, hang on, I'm getting a human for you? (28:40):
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Liam and Hayden: Uh, I think we're a bit on from that, but you're right. (28:42):
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Liam and Hayden: You are limited to the sources and the data you've got. (28:45):
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Liam and Hayden: Um, and and by and hopefully not by regulation. (28:49):
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Liam and Hayden: People don't end up building all these little different, siloed (28:54):
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Liam and Hayden: agents that can only do one or half a use case, let alone a (28:57):
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Liam and Hayden: whole use case. (29:01):
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Liam and Hayden: Um, you're right. (29:02):
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Liam and Hayden: We, um, we may be restricting ourselves in the future. (29:03):
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Liam and Hayden: Um, but it's the sources we have, um, the richness of data (29:07):
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Liam and Hayden: behind it and the quality of those behind it. (29:13):
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Liam and Hayden: So don't. (29:17):
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Liam and Hayden: I guess Hayden's take is don't limit your agent by just (29:18):
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Liam and Hayden: limiting the data behind it? (29:22):
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Liam and Hayden: Yes. (29:25):
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Liam and Hayden: Just kind of where it took us, really sort of, you know, those (29:28):
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Liam and Hayden: those conversations last week. (29:31):
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Liam and Hayden: Um, a lot of people are we even (29:33):
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Liam and Hayden: had a live demo from SNCF (29:35):
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Liam and Hayden: voyages, um, actually phoning up (29:38):
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Liam and Hayden: their agent, uh, who was Damien, (29:41):
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Liam and Hayden: who was their head of innovation (29:44):
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Liam and Hayden: and AI. (29:46):
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Liam and Hayden: He was phoning he's phoned up (29:47):
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Liam and Hayden: his agent via the telephone with (29:49):
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Liam and Hayden: the mic on the stand, phoned it (29:51):
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Liam and Hayden: up. (29:53):
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Liam and Hayden: He was speaking in English with (29:53):
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Liam and Hayden: a French accent to a French, bot speaking (29:55):
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Liam and Hayden: back to him in English, hated (29:59):
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Liam and Hayden: speaking in English and it booked (30:00):
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Liam and Hayden: him. And (30:02):
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Liam and Hayden: he was quite, I would say, flippant and conversational with it (30:03):
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Liam and Hayden: and it still got it. I (30:07):
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Liam and Hayden: think he had to repeat one thing (30:07):
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Liam and Hayden: once, but from a live demonstration (30:09):
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Liam and Hayden: from the event, it's (30:11):
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Liam and Hayden: pretty impressive, actually. (30:12):
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Liam and Hayden: And, (30:13):
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Liam and Hayden: uh, it didn't get to the point of making the transaction, but, (30:14):
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Liam and Hayden: um, here he got he got the information he needed. But (30:18):
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Liam and Hayden: you're right. I (30:23):
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Liam and Hayden: think some of the information it (30:24):
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Liam and Hayden: had coming back to him might some (30:26):
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Liam and Hayden: of those things might have been (30:28):
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Liam and Hayden: limited purely on what it had (30:29):
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Liam and Hayden: behind the scenes to tell him. (30:31):
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Liam and Hayden: But (30:32):
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Liam and Hayden: yeah, early days but good days. And (30:33):
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Liam and Hayden: this is, this is where innovation (30:35):
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Liam and Hayden: has a part to play, because (30:37):
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Liam and Hayden: people are going to start (30:38):
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Liam and Hayden: trialing and and using different (30:40):
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Liam and Hayden: data sources to try and (30:43):
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Liam and Hayden: get the richest bots they can. (30:44):
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Liam and Hayden: We're (30:46):
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Liam and Hayden: in a we're in a good place right (30:47):
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Liam and Hayden: now actually a nice we're in (30:48):
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Liam and Hayden: that sort of fertile crescent of (30:50):
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Liam and Hayden: innovation for agent right now. (30:53):
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Liam and Hayden: And (30:54):
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Liam and Hayden: I think that's a that's a good place to be. Yes. (30:55):
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Liam and Hayden: Okay. (30:58):
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Liam and Hayden: I (30:59):
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Liam and Hayden: can't let us go without admitting (30:59):
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Liam and Hayden: that we did have some of (31:01):
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Liam and Hayden: our own little boo boos with transport (31:02):
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Liam and Hayden: in Madrid, as you and I (31:03):
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Liam and Hayden: ended up running down a street because (31:05):
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Liam and Hayden: we couldn't understand the (31:07):
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Liam and Hayden: metro. Um, (31:08):
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Liam and Hayden: yeah, we got on the metro not knowing we have to. We (31:09):
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Liam and Hayden: have to go on three different lines to get from our hotel to the (31:14):
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Liam and Hayden: to the event. Uh, (31:17):
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Liam and Hayden: and my consulting co Transportes (31:19):
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Liam and Hayden: Madrid, uh, that I, uh (31:22):
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Liam and Hayden: the, the card that I used, um, (31:25):
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Liam and Hayden: I bought the through ticket all (31:28):
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Liam and Hayden: the way through, but then we had (31:30):
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Liam and Hayden: to come up because one line was (31:32):
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Liam and Hayden: off and there was a bus replacement. (31:33):
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Liam and Hayden: So (31:35):
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Liam and Hayden: you and I ran it rather than got the bus replacement. But (31:35):
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Liam and Hayden: by the time we got back down again, the cards wouldn't work because (31:37):
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Liam and Hayden: we'd exited the the metro too early, and then we had to (31:40):
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Liam and Hayden: go and find a very nice lady who didn't speak English. And (31:43):
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Liam and Hayden: our schoolboy Spanish was, uh, just got us through by bits of (31:48):
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Liam and Hayden: pointing at receipts and speaking in schoolboy Spanish. And (31:52):
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Liam and Hayden: we just about got to the event on time. So, (31:56):
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Liam and Hayden: yeah, sometimes it works. Sometimes (31:58):
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Liam and Hayden: you do need a human in the mix. And (32:01):
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Liam and Hayden: I was lucky that that lovely lady was there to help us where you (32:03):
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Liam and Hayden: found her eventually. And, (32:07):
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Liam and Hayden: uh, and we got to the, the event and just got on the train in (32:08):
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Liam and Hayden: time, on the metro on time just to get there. So. (32:12):
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Liam and Hayden: Yeah, uh, that was my step count for the day as well, so thank (32:14):
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Liam and Hayden: you, Lynn. That (32:18):
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Liam and Hayden: was great. Um, (32:19):
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Liam and Hayden: would I go back to real life? Possibly. (32:20):
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Liam and Hayden: Hopefully, (32:23):
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Liam and Hayden: yes. Um, (32:23):
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Liam and Hayden: I think if it's going to be, uh, it's going to break one. But (32:24):
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Liam and Hayden: there's also a UK version of that (32:28):
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Liam and Hayden: taking place in Birmingham next (32:30):
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Liam and Hayden: year. Uh, (32:32):
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Liam and Hayden: a UK yes. More (32:33):
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Liam and Hayden: details come on that. But (32:34):
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Liam and Hayden: we are partnering with them. The (32:35):
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Liam and Hayden: group is partnering with that (32:37):
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Liam and Hayden: UK rail event for the start up (32:39):
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Liam and Hayden: zone. So (32:41):
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Liam and Hayden: we'll be doing a meetup there and hosting the start up zone. So (32:42):
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Liam and Hayden: more details to come on that. So (32:46):
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Liam and Hayden: just before we part, Hayden, if you had one top tip to give a startup (32:48):
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Liam and Hayden: or digital company based on what you're now learning, what (32:54):
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Liam and Hayden: would that top tip be? Um, (32:57):
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Liam and Hayden: the agent and the AI sector is more mature than you think it is (33:00):
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Liam and Hayden: right now. Um, (33:05):
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Liam and Hayden: just doing the very, very basics. And (33:06):
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Liam and Hayden: half an MVP is not going to cut it anymore. Um, (33:08):
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Liam and Hayden: so my advice is data, data, data. Find (33:12):
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Liam and Hayden: out the best data sources you can. The (33:17):
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Liam and Hayden: richest data sources. The (33:20):
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Liam and Hayden: most trustworthy, the cleanest data sources you can and (33:21):
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Liam and Hayden: use those. Um, (33:25):
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Liam and Hayden: if you haven't, um, I know that (33:27):
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Liam and Hayden: there are companies now that (33:29):
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Liam and Hayden: are specializing in data and (33:30):
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Liam and Hayden: the, should we say, creating pipelines (33:33):
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Liam and Hayden: of data and that sort of (33:35):
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Liam and Hayden: stuff. I (33:36):
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Liam and Hayden: would talk to those, um, and also, um, share best practice. There's (33:36):
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Liam and Hayden: a, there's various different reports out now. Um, (33:42):
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Liam and Hayden: for, for example, lots of reports out there. Some (33:46):
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Liam and Hayden: are some reports coming out that are, are showing what's best (33:49):
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Liam and Hayden: practice and how AI can be used in rail. I (33:53):
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Liam and Hayden: would read those before you just (33:56):
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Liam and Hayden: go off and venture and uh, and (33:58):
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Liam and Hayden: if anybody knows, I'm going to (34:01):
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Liam and Hayden: try and pull together a list of (34:02):
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Liam and Hayden: experts in the sector, sort of (34:04):
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Liam and Hayden: the AI in rail r I l I think I (34:06):
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Liam and Hayden: was going to call it rail, AI and (34:10):
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Liam and Hayden: rail and try and get a sort of (34:14):
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Liam and Hayden: a list of people together who are (34:16):
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Liam and Hayden: the European and cross sector. (34:18):
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Liam and Hayden: So (34:20):
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Liam and Hayden: cross markets experts and that. So (34:20):
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Liam and Hayden: contact me and I'll try and include (34:23):
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Liam and Hayden: you on that and try and get (34:26):
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Liam and Hayden: best practice and share wherever (34:27):
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Liam and Hayden: possible the world is going. (34:28):
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Liam and Hayden: It's (34:30):
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Liam and Hayden: going very, very quickly. Right (34:30):
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Liam and Hayden: now it's a simple one data source or two data sources, potentially (34:32):
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Liam and Hayden: from one mode. Might (34:36):
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Liam and Hayden: not cut it anymore. Good. (34:37):
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Liam and Hayden: Right. (34:39):
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Liam and Hayden: Great (34:40):
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Liam and Hayden: encouraging words. Um, (34:40):
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Liam and Hayden: I will see you soon. Pleasure. (34:42):
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Liam and Hayden: Thanks (34:46):
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Liam and Hayden: for having me, Liam. And (34:46):
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Liam and Hayden: I'll speak to you all soon. All (34:47):
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Liam and Hayden: right. Thanks (34:50):
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Liam and Hayden: for joining us, Hayden. (34:50):
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Johannah Randall: Thanks for listening to another episode of What Moves Us. (34:54):
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Johannah Randall: We hope we moved you for more episodes. (34:57):
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Johannah Randall: You'll definitely want to subscribe to our channel. (35:00):
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Johannah Randall: Until next time. (35:01):
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