February 21, 2025 • 25 mins
In this empowering episode, Gia welcomes Nawal Houghton, a divorce expert and founder of Your Divorce Coach. Together, they delve into the often unspoken challenges women face when navigating the complex and emotionally taxing process of divorce, particularly when dealing with toxic or narcissistic partners.
Nawal shares her personal journey through divorce, offering invaluable insights drawn from her experiences as a qualified solicitor and accredited mediator. She discusses the emotional toll of unhealthy relationships and the importance of recognizing toxic dynamics, emphasizing that self-worth and identity play crucial roles in the decision to leave.
Listeners will gain a deeper understanding of the common struggles women encounter before, during and post-divorce, from feeling overwhelmed and stuck to the fear of how their choices will impact their children. Nawal provides practical advice on how to navigate these challenges, encouraging women to trust their instincts and prioritize their well-being.
This episode is a must-listen for anyone seeking support, and guidance on their journey to reclaiming their lives.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome to Your Future Starts Now, the go-to podcast for
extraordinary women who are ready to step into their next chapter with
authentic confidence. I'm your host, Gia LaFleur, empowerment coach,
motivational speaker, children's book author, and girl mom. Whether
you're a corporate powerhouse or an entrepreneur, this show is
designed for you. Your Future Starts Now is more than
(00:20):
just a podcast. It's a movement, a movement towards rewriting
the rules of success for high-achieving women. Are you ready
to get unstuck and step into your next chapter? If
so, you are exactly where you need to be. Your future starts
now. Welcome to Your Future Starts Now. I'm your host,
Gia Lacqua. I want to thank you for joining us today. I am so
(00:42):
excited to introduce you to Nawal Houghton. Nawal
is a divorce expert based in the UK and the founder of Your Divorce
Coach. Her mission is to help individuals, especially women, who
are navigating the incredibly complex and emotionally taxing
process of divorce. With a background as a qualified solicitor
and accredited mediator. She offers a unique, compassionate
(01:05):
approach that combines legal insight with deep emotional support. But
what makes her work truly impactful is that she's been through this journey
herself. She understands firsthand the emotional toll of
divorce and is a dedicated mother of two boys. Her
expertise, along with her heart for helping others break free and
create a new life, makes her the perfect guide for anyone feeling stuck,
(01:26):
overwhelmed, or unsure in the midst of divorce. Nawal,
So today we're diving into a very important topic that affects so
many women, yet it's often left
unspoken. So I love that you, in the work that
(01:49):
you do, the education, the awareness, the tips, the tools that
you're providing, I think is so desperately needed. And
we're talking about navigating divorce. And I know the work you do is
Yes. Well, yeah, I mean, look, the label that we associate narcissism,
whether, you know, toxic, abusive, is also
(02:12):
the same sort of, it doesn't really matter what label we give it, suffice to
I like that. I think a lot of us spend so
much time trying to label, right? We Google a behavior, we
try and understand what's kind of going on, but really the mere
fact that we're even entering that behavior on Google or trying to decipher
(02:33):
means that it is toxic, it's abusive, there's something wrong in that sort
of dynamic of the relationship that it's making us feel
anxious, uncertain, lost, confused, So
yeah, that's the parameter. So not to worry too much about the label, suffice
to say that there's enough going on for you to start questioning those
dynamics. I think that's a great point and stop spinning your wheels and trying
(02:55):
to put a label to it as long as you know that it's disciphered.
Because it's only in that labeling or determining or
understanding that we can then go down a certain route. No, the route is still
the same, the route to recovery and understanding and safeguarding ourselves
and our children. Whatever label we give it, it's just that general
(03:18):
Absolutely. I think that's a great place to start. Before we jump in a
little bit deeper, tell us a little bit about your background and what led you to the
So I am a solicitor, I'm an accredited mediator, and
my journey I guess started because I discovered that my
ex-husband was having an extramarital affair, shall we
say, and I navigated
(03:41):
that very tricky divorce with two very small children.
They were only eight months and three years old. And even
as a lawyer, trying to, I mean, narcissism or toxic abusive behavior,
you know, I mean, specifically the word narcissism was not that well recognized 10 years
ago. I mean, I've been divorced for 10 years now. But again, I found myself
in the position where I was Googling the behavior, trying to understand what was going
(04:03):
on. And it was through my experiences of, and despite being
a lawyer and understanding the legal process, I found it so tricky.
It was the hiding of assets. It was the weaponizing of children. It
was the deliberately losing the job. It was getting
the mistress pregnant halfway through our divorce proceeding. It was hiding
assets. And all of this I kind of learned very rapidly
(04:24):
because we, want to drive through the process, we have
to safeguard our children. And I sort
of got through that process, overcame it. And then I
suppose because I was going through the divorce process quite young, and then
slowly other people did and friends were sort of cross-referring me going, you must
talk to Nawal, Nawal knows all about this. And then I thought, well,
(04:45):
why don't I sort of maybe monetize this, maybe do
it part-time as well as working part-time as a lawyer. And then
in COVID, it just blew up. Now, whether that be people
living together, people having time to search, people being able to see the
traumatic dynamics of a relationship because
I was on social media, because I was talking about it so much. And
(05:07):
then, yeah, your divorce coach was created and so
I love that. Tell us a little bit about the women you work with. What
are some of the most common challenges you
Honestly, they come to me at varying stages. I think
(05:27):
if we go through the different types of stages that I've encountered on a regular basis, it'll
be, I think this is toxic. I
don't like the way I feel. I need someone to validate what's going on
for me. And I'm in a state of procrastination, stalemate.
What are my options? What does it look like? What could the narcissist do?
What could this abusive person do? What could my future
(05:50):
look like? Two, I've just kicked off the process. My
lawyer doesn't seem to understand the emotional dynamics. Divorcing
someone, and certainly divorcing someone particularly tricky and toxic, the
emotion and the logistics of divorce are so intertwined. We
don't realize that our decision-making around money and children
and dynamics is so linked to whether we're still trauma-bonded. We
(06:14):
have low self-worth, low self-esteem. We're scared of this toxic
partner, and it's so interlinked. so they might come to me at that stage
where they're, I'm talking to a lawyer, they don't really understand me, I need someone
to support me, to really understand why perhaps I'm not making the
right decisions for me. All the way to, I'm
divorced, I've got all the paperwork, but I still feel like
(06:34):
I'm married to them. I cannot navigate children, they're
not adhering to financial consent orders, I
can't manage my communication with them, I still feel trapped, I
need help with that. So it can really be all varying stages,
but fundamentally it's about how do I navigate either
the process and this person or post process? How
(07:01):
That makes sense. And then managing through those challenging situations.
I would imagine having somebody like you with the expertise and
firsthand personal experience, right? Having gone through that to
Yeah, and having gone through it, right, so this is my thing, I didn't read a book, like
I was there, and I think that's where my clients really find the rapport,
(07:23):
is because it's someone that, when I describe, you know, do you feel like this,
and this is what it must be for you, and what I get from clients is, yes, yes, that's
exactly how I feel. And I think that's the unique selling
point, I guess, for me is I am a lawyer, I'm a mediator, and
I've been there, and I was a stepmother, and blended
family, and divorce, all of that, and parallel parenting,
(07:46):
and a father that's done abandonment. And we'll add on in
there, I'm also the mother of a neurodiverse child. So been
I love that. So in the US, I recently conducted a
national research study with 750 women,
working women. And one of the data
points that came out of that research study was that 57% of
(08:09):
working women are currently in or have
previously stayed in a less than ideal relationship.
So, million dollar question, I would love from your perspective, right?
Like, why? Why do we stay in these unhealthy
Our income, our success, our career is not directly
(08:33):
reflective of the reason why we stay in an abusive relationship. It
all has to do with our self-worth, our low self-esteem, our
trauma that we may have experienced in the past, us believing that
we are not worthy of anything better. and
depending on the length of time we've been in an abusive relationship. I
have met women that are CEOs, VIP, VPs
(08:56):
in massive companies and fundamentally are in
a relationship where they are psychologically, emotionally abused,
even physically, but still remain there. So how much you're earning
your position in society has nothing to do with it. It's about our
reflection of ourself and how we view ourself. and
whether we have anxious attachment, we're not
(09:17):
securing ourselves to be able to kind of go, actually, this is not working for
me. Like, this is not right. I can identify these red flags. I can
identify this behavior and I'm going to exit. So
it's got nothing to do about where you are. It's more about who you are.
I think that's a really important point and probably really important
Completely. Look, I speak three languages. I'm a
(09:40):
lawyer. I'm French-educated. I
stayed with an abusive partner for 15 years. It's not directly reflective of
my intelligence or where I am in society or the fact
that I've got a good career. It was reflective of my
self-worth. It was reflective of my unconsciousness recognizing
really bad behavior. going, ooh, this looks nice.
(10:03):
I recognize this bad behavior and it makes me feel safe
in a way because it's familiar. And that's the
longevity of why you stay. Plus, encompassing the very
slow drip feeding of trauma bond, insidious
behavior, making you question your self-value, making you
think that any choice that you make for yourself. I mean, a sentence that my
(10:24):
ex-husband used to repeat on a daily basis was, you'll never find someone
as good as me. You'll never find anyone as good as me. And
that infiltrates your mind. Also, the age at
which you enter this relationship. I was 22. I was
30, gosh, 36, I think 37 when I was divorcing. That
are formative years. So again, doesn't matter if you're CEO, doesn't
(10:46):
matter if you're VP, when was the time zone of
when you were in this relationship? And also for some, a lot
of women, the concept of a divorced family is just
not something that they want to entertain, that we kind of put on
these rose-tinted glasses about, just think of the good times, think of that. And
no marriage is perfect, and some relationships have,
(11:07):
you know, moments, and let's surpass that, let's go over that,
let's stick together. Some women do have that belief system,
whether it comes from a religious background, a community background,
they believe that staying is the better choice. So
Yeah, there's a lot there. I mean, I feel like we might need a couple hours to go
(11:30):
I mean, honestly, like the community one is massive. You
know, I deal with a lot of Middle Eastern, Asian,
Indian community divorces where fundamentally the
mere fact that they're talking to me is groundbreaking. and
the sort of socio-community impact that leaving
someone would have, the shaming, we could
(11:50):
talk about that for hours. Let alone sort
of from a religious perspective, some religions the concept of divorce not even entering, you
know, there's so much going on there. Yeah, we could we could
So what I hear you saying is that there are some ingrained beliefs,
right? Some conditioning that happens, cultural, societal. And
(12:10):
then there's our own personal experiences and our limiting beliefs
that we interpret, right? And the stories we
tell ourselves about who we are and who we aren't. I also hear you talk about
self-worth, which I think is a really important component to this. Talk
to us a little bit about the role of identity in
(12:33):
Okay, what angle? I suppose the identity of us going
through that process or trying to acknowledge who we are. You
know, I think for a lot of my clients, they've
lost their identity. They
don't know who they are. They are drowned by
the voice of that toxic individual. So
(12:56):
for a lot of my clients, it's almost like this, double
channel of going through the process, managing a difficult person
and also who I am, what is it that I believe is
the right or wrong decision, what is good for me. I think the
finding of ourselves or our identity is a process within
itself and it kind of goes, it works alongside that. As
(13:18):
we go through the navigating and identifying of what is happening
to us, who this person is, the mask has dropped, the
person that you are married is not the person that you lived with or the person
that you're divorcing and that your
identity needs to resurface and everything that you've known and how you've navigated
yourself has to be reset is a huge part
(13:39):
of this. I think it would be safe to say for a lot
of women there is a complete loss of identity and it's
refinding that identity that allows us to kind of have the grounding
that we need to kind of bounce off to get
and achieve the freedom that we are essentially looking for.
Yeah, and I imagine that can be very scary for women, right?
(14:02):
You know, you question everything. And then so many of my clients,
you know, and progress is not linear, right? It's up and down. You
know, sometimes my clients are like, I'm on there, Nawal. I am so headed. And then
it will just be, they'll receive a letter or there'll be a weaponizing by the
narcissist. And then it's, I think I just need to go back and it's better and
it's the best thing to do and it's safer and this is too much and
(14:23):
I've got it all wrong and actually when you think about it,
what they're saying is right and then they'll pick up again. So yes, the
finding of our identity is a massive journey that
is not linear in this process. But imagine all of that going on
for someone, right? All of that Plus, if
we add in the cultural, religious, all of that, it can be also consuming.
(14:44):
So doing that without that additional help by a divorce coach or someone that
understands that process, I don't know how someone can navigate that. I think
it's super, super tricky, which sort of understands why
more and more people are reaching out for that. They understand that
it's a decision of such magnitude and
of such complexity that you would need someone by
(15:08):
That makes sense. So another sort of elephant in
the room, I'll say, you know, is a lot of women feel trapped in
an unhealthy or unhappy marriage. And a lot of times
they're afraid of how the divorce will affect their children. Not
surprisingly, and a lot of women, they feel stuck. So how
do we know when the marriage is actually
(15:29):
doing more harm than good when it comes to
Well, ourselves, it's the lying awake at night. It's
the walking on eggshells. It's the not being able to do things
through freedom. It's the lack of communication. It's
keeping ourselves small. It's keeping ourselves silent. Fear,
(15:52):
permanent fear and anxiety, it can come out in physical
form. I remember I was covered in a rash, like permanently. And
women lose hair. There's digestive issues.
Those are massive warning signs that something is not kind
of operating well. I think mothers, and
(16:12):
I'm talking about the non-narcissist here, mothers tend to have
a very motherly instinctive, we must
stick as a family notion about our children, and that's why we tend to minimize
the behavior by the abusive parent. And I kind of
have this line that I say to my clients, which is a little bit mean, But
it stems from, because I think we think that we're shielding them, we're
(16:34):
not. We think that we're hiding everything from them, you're not.
Children are super perceptive. Like, they can feel, they
can see, they can hear. You think you're hiding, but honestly, the
atmosphere in itself, if it is unhealthy, does
transcend into our children. And when I hear clients
say, I don't think I can do this for my children. I don't, you
(16:56):
know, I think it's better if I stay. I kind of say, absolutely, that's your decision. I'm
not here to question that. But I will ask you one question. And that is if your
child, man, girl, whatever, you know, man, woman,
sorry, came to you later on in life and described the
relationship that you are in, the dynamics of your relationship, what
would be your advice, what would be your guidance? And immediately, there is
(17:17):
not a client that I have spoken to now that doesn't say, oh my God, you
have to get out, this is not okay, this is dangerous, this
is unsafe. And I say, okay, fine. Number one, I'm
interested as to why you wouldn't give yourself that advice. And
number two, what do you say to your child when they turn around and just say, well, you
didn't, you didn't get out. And that is enough. It's
(17:38):
like I said, it's slightly, it's slightly mean. And I preface this sentence
with saying to my clients, I'm going to test you now. It's not very kind, but
I need to reality test you. Otherwise I'm not just not, I'm not serving you
in the way that I need to serve you. Um, and, and
they just look at me and they just go, right. Right, and that takes time to
process. I think a lot of mothers, women
(17:59):
cannot distinguish between what is good for me and what I want for my children
without understanding that they are so interlinked. Children do
not say, do not copy what you do. They copy what you say, they
copy what you do. They see what you do. They see what you do and replicate that.
You can talk and talk and talk. As a mother of two teens, I
can tell you this, you know, you can talk from here until tomorrow,
(18:23):
but it's what you do that they will copy. So that's why
that is really fundamental. And that's like a big, big process for my clients.
That's incredibly powerful. And I think that, you know, just like in leadership,
parenting is a type of leadership, right? If you are talking the
talk, but not walking the walk. To your point, they will see that. Right.
And I think that's great advice in the work that I do. I do feel like the
(18:44):
hard hitting questions can be very
powerful and impactful. And I think the way I like to think about it is I'm not
Are into that next version of yourself. And I think that tool is,
you know, as hard hitting as it can be, and maybe difficult for some people, I think
(19:05):
makes a lot of sense, because you have to take yourself out of almost out
of the situation out of the equation and think about it in a third party,
which is sometimes strange, but sometimes the most impactful
Yeah, and I call that reality testing. It is kind of taking
them out of the bubble and the sphere that they think that they feel comfortable in, which they've rationalized
in their head as, oh no, no, this is how I see it. And when you unpick it
(19:27):
and reality test them, it is like a bit of a massive blow. But
I love the way that you have framed that. But like I said, I
do preface with, I need to tell you something. You might
not like this. So they're aware. I don't sort of throw it at them,
which can be a bit cruel, but I think it's a massive trigger for a
lot of people that just makes them think, Oh my God, you're so right. But
(19:47):
a lot of my clients come to me aware of that. And a lot of my clients say to
me, I have seen what it's done to my children. I can see what it is doing
to my children. And that is enough of a driver for
So having gone through the process yourself, I know you're somewhat removed from
it at this point, but if you could go back and give your
past self during your own divorce process one
(20:13):
I would have jumped sooner. That is probably my
line that I say a lot. I think the fear and anxiety I
felt over so many things. I delayed instigating divorce. I
thought that he was going to be reasonable. I thought that
the reasonable person that I had seen and fallen
in love with at the beginning would somehow creep
(20:35):
out, that he would have some sort of empathy for
our children, for the situation, for the wrong that he had done. With
narcissists and toxic individuals, this does not exist. There
will never be reasonableness. They interplay
and change the narrative, even
(20:55):
if they have done wrong, to make it out as you are the perpetrator. So
they are always justified in what they do. So
I wish I had just been more driven, more
aware that someone had said to me, look, you need to do this because you're
delaying this. And if you don't jump now, they're going
to play around with money. They're going to weaponize children. You're making it easier for them to
(21:16):
do this. I just wish I had just not spent, I mean, it
took me three and a half years to divorce him. It could have been so
much quicker. So yeah, it would have been just jump
sooner, just jump sooner. Nothing bad has come out of
jumping into something and the only reason that
you're resisting is through fear and anxiety. Great things have come from
(21:37):
jumping through that fear and anxiety. It's
Sure. And along those lines, so for the woman who is listening, who
is in the early stages and feeling overwhelmed, what's
That you're not alone, that so many people have been through
(21:58):
your process. I have been there too. This
moment will pass, both in a negative and
a positive way. And that to just keep
moving forward, don't expect it to be a one
way up, it'll go up and down. But as long
as you are driven by what you know deep within your core, to
(22:19):
be the right thing for you will be the right thing. Sorry,
that's not there. I've given you a
Very deep. I love that. And so on this on this show,
Noel, we talk about success and redefining success for
women. So I would love to know from your perspective, how do you define success for
(22:44):
Success for me is lots
of things, I guess. Yeah,
there's lots of answers, I guess. From my personal perspective, success for me is
essentially being happy, having my own direction in life, being
able to demonstrate to my children what healthy relationships look like, being
able to speak my truth, But fundamentally, never
(23:07):
wanting another woman or man to feel the way that I did at 3am when
you think you're completely and utterly lost. And if I help just one person change
their lives, feel better, feel relieved, then that for me is success. Incredible.
So you can go to my website, www.yourdivorcecoach.org.uk. You
(23:31):
can find me on Instagram, your underscore divorce underscore
coach. I'm also on Facebook under your underscore
divorce underscore coach. Yes, all
the links that you can find. You can get free content. I
post daily free content on Instagram. Yeah,
(23:53):
Yeah, I know you're very active on Instagram and I have to say a lot, you know, your posts
are very educational and provide a ton of value. So
if you are listening to this and struggling in any way, the
I even post stories on the holiday. I have no work boundaries, it's
terrible. But yes, but I get that, you know, a lot of my clients just say, I've
(24:14):
been following you for such a long time, because it's that building up of courage of
just listening and listening and understanding. And getting the
free content, the free newsletters, just validating what
they're feeling and what they're experiencing is super essential. And then after a while,
they take the courage to kind of just go, actually, I want to talk to you. I just want to ask
Well, I want to thank you so much for being here, for sharing
(24:41):
Yeah, of course. You can visit my website at GiaLacqua.com. Reach out on Instagram. Let
us know what you'd like to hear about on future episodes. This is Gia signing
off with gratitude for your time and energy. Our mic dropped, but the movement continues.
Until next time, your next chapter is waiting. Take care. That concludes
another empowering episode of Your Future Starts Now. Before
we wrap up, I wanna thank this incredible community of high-achieving women.
(25:03):
Your energy, resilience, and commitment to growth are the driving force
behind what we do. If you enjoyed today's episode, please rate
it, leave a review, and don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode. Your
feedback fuels our mission to empower high-achieving women just like
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(25:25):
with us on social media, share your thoughts, let us know what topics you'd like to
explore in future episodes. Stay connected on Instagram at
GiaLacqua. I encourage you to carry the energy of this conversation
into your day and keep on supporting the incredible women around you.
Welcome to Your Future Starts Now, the go-to podcast for
extraordinary women who are ready to step into their next chapter with
authentic confidence. I'm your host, Gia LaFleur, empowerment coach,
motivational speaker, children's book author, and girl mom. Whether
you're a corporate powerhouse or an entrepreneur, this show is
designed for you. Your Future Starts Now is more than
(00:20):
just a podcast. It's a movement, a movement towards rewriting
the rules of success for high-achieving women. Are you ready
to get unstuck and step into your next chapter? If
so, you are exactly where you need to be. Your future starts
now. Welcome to Your Future Starts Now. I'm your host,
Gia Lacqua. I want to thank you for joining us today. I am so
(00:42):
excited to introduce you to Nawal Houghton. Nawal
is a divorce expert based in the UK and the founder of Your Divorce
Coach. Her mission is to help individuals, especially women, who
are navigating the incredibly complex and emotionally taxing
process of divorce. With a background as a qualified solicitor
and accredited mediator. She offers a unique, compassionate
(01:05):
approach that combines legal insight with deep emotional support. But
what makes her work truly impactful is that she's been through this journey
herself. She understands firsthand the emotional toll of
divorce and is a dedicated mother of two boys. Her
expertise, along with her heart for helping others break free and
create a new life, makes her the perfect guide for anyone feeling stuck,
(01:26):
overwhelmed, or unsure in the midst of divorce. Nawal,
So today we're diving into a very important topic that affects so
many women, yet it's often left
unspoken. So I love that you, in the work that
(01:49):
you do, the education, the awareness, the tips, the tools that
you're providing, I think is so desperately needed. And
we're talking about navigating divorce. And I know the work you do is
Yes. Well, yeah, I mean, look, the label that we associate narcissism,
whether, you know, toxic, abusive, is also
(02:12):
the same sort of, it doesn't really matter what label we give it, suffice to
I like that. I think a lot of us spend so
much time trying to label, right? We Google a behavior, we
try and understand what's kind of going on, but really the mere
fact that we're even entering that behavior on Google or trying to decipher
(02:33):
means that it is toxic, it's abusive, there's something wrong in that sort
of dynamic of the relationship that it's making us feel
anxious, uncertain, lost, confused, So
yeah, that's the parameter. So not to worry too much about the label, suffice
to say that there's enough going on for you to start questioning those
dynamics. I think that's a great point and stop spinning your wheels and trying
(02:55):
to put a label to it as long as you know that it's disciphered.
Because it's only in that labeling or determining or
understanding that we can then go down a certain route. No, the route is still
the same, the route to recovery and understanding and safeguarding ourselves
and our children. Whatever label we give it, it's just that general
(03:18):
Absolutely. I think that's a great place to start. Before we jump in a
little bit deeper, tell us a little bit about your background and what led you to the
So I am a solicitor, I'm an accredited mediator, and
my journey I guess started because I discovered that my
ex-husband was having an extramarital affair, shall we
say, and I navigated
(03:41):
that very tricky divorce with two very small children.
They were only eight months and three years old. And even
as a lawyer, trying to, I mean, narcissism or toxic abusive behavior,
you know, I mean, specifically the word narcissism was not that well recognized 10 years
ago. I mean, I've been divorced for 10 years now. But again, I found myself
in the position where I was Googling the behavior, trying to understand what was going
(04:03):
on. And it was through my experiences of, and despite being
a lawyer and understanding the legal process, I found it so tricky.
It was the hiding of assets. It was the weaponizing of children. It
was the deliberately losing the job. It was getting
the mistress pregnant halfway through our divorce proceeding. It was hiding
assets. And all of this I kind of learned very rapidly
(04:24):
because we, want to drive through the process, we have
to safeguard our children. And I sort
of got through that process, overcame it. And then I
suppose because I was going through the divorce process quite young, and then
slowly other people did and friends were sort of cross-referring me going, you must
talk to Nawal, Nawal knows all about this. And then I thought, well,
(04:45):
why don't I sort of maybe monetize this, maybe do
it part-time as well as working part-time as a lawyer. And then
in COVID, it just blew up. Now, whether that be people
living together, people having time to search, people being able to see the
traumatic dynamics of a relationship because
I was on social media, because I was talking about it so much. And
(05:07):
then, yeah, your divorce coach was created and so
I love that. Tell us a little bit about the women you work with. What
are some of the most common challenges you
Honestly, they come to me at varying stages. I think
(05:27):
if we go through the different types of stages that I've encountered on a regular basis, it'll
be, I think this is toxic. I
don't like the way I feel. I need someone to validate what's going on
for me. And I'm in a state of procrastination, stalemate.
What are my options? What does it look like? What could the narcissist do?
What could this abusive person do? What could my future
(05:50):
look like? Two, I've just kicked off the process. My
lawyer doesn't seem to understand the emotional dynamics. Divorcing
someone, and certainly divorcing someone particularly tricky and toxic, the
emotion and the logistics of divorce are so intertwined. We
don't realize that our decision-making around money and children
and dynamics is so linked to whether we're still trauma-bonded. We
(06:14):
have low self-worth, low self-esteem. We're scared of this toxic
partner, and it's so interlinked. so they might come to me at that stage
where they're, I'm talking to a lawyer, they don't really understand me, I need someone
to support me, to really understand why perhaps I'm not making the
right decisions for me. All the way to, I'm
divorced, I've got all the paperwork, but I still feel like
(06:34):
I'm married to them. I cannot navigate children, they're
not adhering to financial consent orders, I
can't manage my communication with them, I still feel trapped, I
need help with that. So it can really be all varying stages,
but fundamentally it's about how do I navigate either
the process and this person or post process? How
(07:01):
That makes sense. And then managing through those challenging situations.
I would imagine having somebody like you with the expertise and
firsthand personal experience, right? Having gone through that to
Yeah, and having gone through it, right, so this is my thing, I didn't read a book, like
I was there, and I think that's where my clients really find the rapport,
(07:23):
is because it's someone that, when I describe, you know, do you feel like this,
and this is what it must be for you, and what I get from clients is, yes, yes, that's
exactly how I feel. And I think that's the unique selling
point, I guess, for me is I am a lawyer, I'm a mediator, and
I've been there, and I was a stepmother, and blended
family, and divorce, all of that, and parallel parenting,
(07:46):
and a father that's done abandonment. And we'll add on in
there, I'm also the mother of a neurodiverse child. So been
I love that. So in the US, I recently conducted a
national research study with 750 women,
working women. And one of the data
points that came out of that research study was that 57% of
(08:09):
working women are currently in or have
previously stayed in a less than ideal relationship.
So, million dollar question, I would love from your perspective, right?
Like, why? Why do we stay in these unhealthy
Our income, our success, our career is not directly
(08:33):
reflective of the reason why we stay in an abusive relationship. It
all has to do with our self-worth, our low self-esteem, our
trauma that we may have experienced in the past, us believing that
we are not worthy of anything better. and
depending on the length of time we've been in an abusive relationship. I
have met women that are CEOs, VIP, VPs
(08:56):
in massive companies and fundamentally are in
a relationship where they are psychologically, emotionally abused,
even physically, but still remain there. So how much you're earning
your position in society has nothing to do with it. It's about our
reflection of ourself and how we view ourself. and
whether we have anxious attachment, we're not
(09:17):
securing ourselves to be able to kind of go, actually, this is not working for
me. Like, this is not right. I can identify these red flags. I can
identify this behavior and I'm going to exit. So
it's got nothing to do about where you are. It's more about who you are.
I think that's a really important point and probably really important
Completely. Look, I speak three languages. I'm a
(09:40):
lawyer. I'm French-educated. I
stayed with an abusive partner for 15 years. It's not directly reflective of
my intelligence or where I am in society or the fact
that I've got a good career. It was reflective of my
self-worth. It was reflective of my unconsciousness recognizing
really bad behavior. going, ooh, this looks nice.
(10:03):
I recognize this bad behavior and it makes me feel safe
in a way because it's familiar. And that's the
longevity of why you stay. Plus, encompassing the very
slow drip feeding of trauma bond, insidious
behavior, making you question your self-value, making you
think that any choice that you make for yourself. I mean, a sentence that my
(10:24):
ex-husband used to repeat on a daily basis was, you'll never find someone
as good as me. You'll never find anyone as good as me. And
that infiltrates your mind. Also, the age at
which you enter this relationship. I was 22. I was
30, gosh, 36, I think 37 when I was divorcing. That
are formative years. So again, doesn't matter if you're CEO, doesn't
(10:46):
matter if you're VP, when was the time zone of
when you were in this relationship? And also for some, a lot
of women, the concept of a divorced family is just
not something that they want to entertain, that we kind of put on
these rose-tinted glasses about, just think of the good times, think of that. And
no marriage is perfect, and some relationships have,
(11:07):
you know, moments, and let's surpass that, let's go over that,
let's stick together. Some women do have that belief system,
whether it comes from a religious background, a community background,
they believe that staying is the better choice. So
Yeah, there's a lot there. I mean, I feel like we might need a couple hours to go
(11:30):
I mean, honestly, like the community one is massive. You
know, I deal with a lot of Middle Eastern, Asian,
Indian community divorces where fundamentally the
mere fact that they're talking to me is groundbreaking. and
the sort of socio-community impact that leaving
someone would have, the shaming, we could
(11:50):
talk about that for hours. Let alone sort
of from a religious perspective, some religions the concept of divorce not even entering, you
know, there's so much going on there. Yeah, we could we could
So what I hear you saying is that there are some ingrained beliefs,
right? Some conditioning that happens, cultural, societal. And
(12:10):
then there's our own personal experiences and our limiting beliefs
that we interpret, right? And the stories we
tell ourselves about who we are and who we aren't. I also hear you talk about
self-worth, which I think is a really important component to this. Talk
to us a little bit about the role of identity in
(12:33):
Okay, what angle? I suppose the identity of us going
through that process or trying to acknowledge who we are. You
know, I think for a lot of my clients, they've
lost their identity. They
don't know who they are. They are drowned by
the voice of that toxic individual. So
(12:56):
for a lot of my clients, it's almost like this, double
channel of going through the process, managing a difficult person
and also who I am, what is it that I believe is
the right or wrong decision, what is good for me. I think the
finding of ourselves or our identity is a process within
itself and it kind of goes, it works alongside that. As
(13:18):
we go through the navigating and identifying of what is happening
to us, who this person is, the mask has dropped, the
person that you are married is not the person that you lived with or the person
that you're divorcing and that your
identity needs to resurface and everything that you've known and how you've navigated
yourself has to be reset is a huge part
(13:39):
of this. I think it would be safe to say for a lot
of women there is a complete loss of identity and it's
refinding that identity that allows us to kind of have the grounding
that we need to kind of bounce off to get
and achieve the freedom that we are essentially looking for.
Yeah, and I imagine that can be very scary for women, right?
(14:02):
You know, you question everything. And then so many of my clients,
you know, and progress is not linear, right? It's up and down. You
know, sometimes my clients are like, I'm on there, Nawal. I am so headed. And then
it will just be, they'll receive a letter or there'll be a weaponizing by the
narcissist. And then it's, I think I just need to go back and it's better and
it's the best thing to do and it's safer and this is too much and
(14:23):
I've got it all wrong and actually when you think about it,
what they're saying is right and then they'll pick up again. So yes, the
finding of our identity is a massive journey that
is not linear in this process. But imagine all of that going on
for someone, right? All of that Plus, if
we add in the cultural, religious, all of that, it can be also consuming.
(14:44):
So doing that without that additional help by a divorce coach or someone that
understands that process, I don't know how someone can navigate that. I think
it's super, super tricky, which sort of understands why
more and more people are reaching out for that. They understand that
it's a decision of such magnitude and
of such complexity that you would need someone by
(15:08):
That makes sense. So another sort of elephant in
the room, I'll say, you know, is a lot of women feel trapped in
an unhealthy or unhappy marriage. And a lot of times
they're afraid of how the divorce will affect their children. Not
surprisingly, and a lot of women, they feel stuck. So how
do we know when the marriage is actually
(15:29):
doing more harm than good when it comes to
Well, ourselves, it's the lying awake at night. It's
the walking on eggshells. It's the not being able to do things
through freedom. It's the lack of communication. It's
keeping ourselves small. It's keeping ourselves silent. Fear,
(15:52):
permanent fear and anxiety, it can come out in physical
form. I remember I was covered in a rash, like permanently. And
women lose hair. There's digestive issues.
Those are massive warning signs that something is not kind
of operating well. I think mothers, and
(16:12):
I'm talking about the non-narcissist here, mothers tend to have
a very motherly instinctive, we must
stick as a family notion about our children, and that's why we tend to minimize
the behavior by the abusive parent. And I kind of
have this line that I say to my clients, which is a little bit mean, But
it stems from, because I think we think that we're shielding them, we're
(16:34):
not. We think that we're hiding everything from them, you're not.
Children are super perceptive. Like, they can feel, they
can see, they can hear. You think you're hiding, but honestly, the
atmosphere in itself, if it is unhealthy, does
transcend into our children. And when I hear clients
say, I don't think I can do this for my children. I don't, you
(16:56):
know, I think it's better if I stay. I kind of say, absolutely, that's your decision. I'm
not here to question that. But I will ask you one question. And that is if your
child, man, girl, whatever, you know, man, woman,
sorry, came to you later on in life and described the
relationship that you are in, the dynamics of your relationship, what
would be your advice, what would be your guidance? And immediately, there is
(17:17):
not a client that I have spoken to now that doesn't say, oh my God, you
have to get out, this is not okay, this is dangerous, this
is unsafe. And I say, okay, fine. Number one, I'm
interested as to why you wouldn't give yourself that advice. And
number two, what do you say to your child when they turn around and just say, well, you
didn't, you didn't get out. And that is enough. It's
(17:38):
like I said, it's slightly, it's slightly mean. And I preface this sentence
with saying to my clients, I'm going to test you now. It's not very kind, but
I need to reality test you. Otherwise I'm not just not, I'm not serving you
in the way that I need to serve you. Um, and, and
they just look at me and they just go, right. Right, and that takes time to
process. I think a lot of mothers, women
(17:59):
cannot distinguish between what is good for me and what I want for my children
without understanding that they are so interlinked. Children do
not say, do not copy what you do. They copy what you say, they
copy what you do. They see what you do. They see what you do and replicate that.
You can talk and talk and talk. As a mother of two teens, I
can tell you this, you know, you can talk from here until tomorrow,
(18:23):
but it's what you do that they will copy. So that's why
that is really fundamental. And that's like a big, big process for my clients.
That's incredibly powerful. And I think that, you know, just like in leadership,
parenting is a type of leadership, right? If you are talking the
talk, but not walking the walk. To your point, they will see that. Right.
And I think that's great advice in the work that I do. I do feel like the
(18:44):
hard hitting questions can be very
powerful and impactful. And I think the way I like to think about it is I'm not
Are into that next version of yourself. And I think that tool is,
you know, as hard hitting as it can be, and maybe difficult for some people, I think
(19:05):
makes a lot of sense, because you have to take yourself out of almost out
of the situation out of the equation and think about it in a third party,
which is sometimes strange, but sometimes the most impactful
Yeah, and I call that reality testing. It is kind of taking
them out of the bubble and the sphere that they think that they feel comfortable in, which they've rationalized
in their head as, oh no, no, this is how I see it. And when you unpick it
(19:27):
and reality test them, it is like a bit of a massive blow. But
I love the way that you have framed that. But like I said, I
do preface with, I need to tell you something. You might
not like this. So they're aware. I don't sort of throw it at them,
which can be a bit cruel, but I think it's a massive trigger for a
lot of people that just makes them think, Oh my God, you're so right. But
(19:47):
a lot of my clients come to me aware of that. And a lot of my clients say to
me, I have seen what it's done to my children. I can see what it is doing
to my children. And that is enough of a driver for
So having gone through the process yourself, I know you're somewhat removed from
it at this point, but if you could go back and give your
past self during your own divorce process one
(20:13):
I would have jumped sooner. That is probably my
line that I say a lot. I think the fear and anxiety I
felt over so many things. I delayed instigating divorce. I
thought that he was going to be reasonable. I thought that
the reasonable person that I had seen and fallen
in love with at the beginning would somehow creep
(20:35):
out, that he would have some sort of empathy for
our children, for the situation, for the wrong that he had done. With
narcissists and toxic individuals, this does not exist. There
will never be reasonableness. They interplay
and change the narrative, even
(20:55):
if they have done wrong, to make it out as you are the perpetrator. So
they are always justified in what they do. So
I wish I had just been more driven, more
aware that someone had said to me, look, you need to do this because you're
delaying this. And if you don't jump now, they're going
to play around with money. They're going to weaponize children. You're making it easier for them to
(21:16):
do this. I just wish I had just not spent, I mean, it
took me three and a half years to divorce him. It could have been so
much quicker. So yeah, it would have been just jump
sooner, just jump sooner. Nothing bad has come out of
jumping into something and the only reason that
you're resisting is through fear and anxiety. Great things have come from
(21:37):
jumping through that fear and anxiety. It's
Sure. And along those lines, so for the woman who is listening, who
is in the early stages and feeling overwhelmed, what's
That you're not alone, that so many people have been through
(21:58):
your process. I have been there too. This
moment will pass, both in a negative and
a positive way. And that to just keep
moving forward, don't expect it to be a one
way up, it'll go up and down. But as long
as you are driven by what you know deep within your core, to
(22:19):
be the right thing for you will be the right thing. Sorry,
that's not there. I've given you a
Very deep. I love that. And so on this on this show,
Noel, we talk about success and redefining success for
women. So I would love to know from your perspective, how do you define success for
(22:44):
Success for me is lots
of things, I guess. Yeah,
there's lots of answers, I guess. From my personal perspective, success for me is
essentially being happy, having my own direction in life, being
able to demonstrate to my children what healthy relationships look like, being
able to speak my truth, But fundamentally, never
(23:07):
wanting another woman or man to feel the way that I did at 3am when
you think you're completely and utterly lost. And if I help just one person change
their lives, feel better, feel relieved, then that for me is success. Incredible.
So you can go to my website, www.yourdivorcecoach.org.uk. You
(23:31):
can find me on Instagram, your underscore divorce underscore
coach. I'm also on Facebook under your underscore
divorce underscore coach. Yes, all
the links that you can find. You can get free content. I
post daily free content on Instagram. Yeah,
(23:53):
Yeah, I know you're very active on Instagram and I have to say a lot, you know, your posts
are very educational and provide a ton of value. So
if you are listening to this and struggling in any way, the
I even post stories on the holiday. I have no work boundaries, it's
terrible. But yes, but I get that, you know, a lot of my clients just say, I've
(24:14):
been following you for such a long time, because it's that building up of courage of
just listening and listening and understanding. And getting the
free content, the free newsletters, just validating what
they're feeling and what they're experiencing is super essential. And then after a while,
they take the courage to kind of just go, actually, I want to talk to you. I just want to ask
Well, I want to thank you so much for being here, for sharing
(24:41):
Yeah, of course. You can visit my website at GiaLacqua.com. Reach out on Instagram. Let
us know what you'd like to hear about on future episodes. This is Gia signing
off with gratitude for your time and energy. Our mic dropped, but the movement continues.
Until next time, your next chapter is waiting. Take care. That concludes
another empowering episode of Your Future Starts Now. Before
we wrap up, I wanna thank this incredible community of high-achieving women.
(25:03):
Your energy, resilience, and commitment to growth are the driving force
behind what we do. If you enjoyed today's episode, please rate
it, leave a review, and don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode. Your
feedback fuels our mission to empower high-achieving women just like
you. And of course, share Your Future Starts Now with the extraordinary women
in your life who are also on a journey of healing and empowerment. Connect
(25:25):
with us on social media, share your thoughts, let us know what topics you'd like to
explore in future episodes. Stay connected on Instagram at
GiaLacqua. I encourage you to carry the energy of this conversation
into your day and keep on supporting the incredible women around you.
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