August 21, 2024 • 47 mins
Join us for the premiere of Wild Tails as we sit down with acclaimed author and conservationist, Bradley Trevor Greive. Known for his stunning illustrations and heartfelt stories about the animal kingdom, Bradley brings a unique perspective to the world of wildlife. Get ready to be captivated by his passion for nature and his inspiring journey as a storyteller and advocate for our planet's creatures. Follow Bradley on Instagram @tasmanian_grizzly
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(00:20):
(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) And welcome in you did it you found it you're at the Wild Tales podcast I
don't know how you found it, but I'm glad you did and I'm glad you're here.
Welcome in.
This is Wild Tales It's a storytelling podcast, but all the stories are animal
related.
Allow me to introduce myself I am your host.
My name is Mike Bona and for over two decades I've been knee-deep in the
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world of animals from majestic creatures roaming our wild spaces to the quirky
companions sharing our homes I have been a zookeeper, a trainer, a
conservationist I've had the incredible privilege of working with a wide range
of different species, but there's one thing I've learned Animals have a knack
for turning ordinary lives into extraordinary adventures And that was part of
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the inspiration for creating this podcast Wild Tales This podcast isn't just
about any stories It's about the ones where our furry feathered or scaly
friends take center stage Whether it's a hilarious encounter, a heart-pounding
escape, or a heartwarming tale of friendship We're diving headfirst into the
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wild world of animal stories So prepare for a rollercoaster ride of emotions as
we explore the incredible stories that happen when humans and animals cross
paths Let me get into it with our very first guest I am Extremely excited to
introduce you to the incredibly talented Bradley Trevor Greaves He's an
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acclaimed author, illustrator environmentalist and conservationist Bradley has
captured the hearts of millions with his stunning artwork and inspiring
messages.
His Netflix special series Adventure Beasts I highly recommend it.
It's an absolute must-watch for anyone who loves animals and a good laugh.
(02:10):
It's basically an animated conservation series Sort of like Kratts creatures,
but for adults.
It's very hilarious.
Very quirky humor I can't recommend it highly enough Anyway, I'm truly excited
to hear what tale he has to offer us.
So without further ado Welcome in Bradley Trevor Greaves I To
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change our voices to sound sexier, I don't know if he can sounds any sexier
true.
I look like my next bunch Bob boys Be good Oh Bradley Trevor Greaves BTG.
I'm so happy that you agreed to Join my podcast and tell an exciting story for
my three loyal listeners I may be optimistic without estimate but the settling
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with the loyal part.
Yeah We'll see so you have a Long history of working with animals and wildlife.
I asked you to pick one story Which I'm sure I could have you on every
week, but I think you have time commitments I have two small children.
So time is just a abstract concept for me now Maybe I can discuss with you
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every morning at 2 a.m. Since I know you're up at that time You do
know I'm up because you've texted me from Africa and I was up changing diapers
and we agree that your life is now better I'll take it.
I think one of my most favorite facts about you is your extensive list of
injuries and surgeries You've had throughout your life.
It's true.
I've made a Very long series of poor choices to be the man that I am
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today I actually lost count of how many wildlife injuries I've had or I know
I've had somewhere up to getting close to 30 surgeries Now and I've had eight
treatments for rabies but Yeah, I feel like you know, you can't trust someone
until they've broken a bone, you know It's you know I said that as a former
soldier and and definitely as someone in the wildlife conservation space if
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someone hasn't had a treatment for rabies I'm very dubious of their commitment
to their fieldwork Well, I've had the pre-exposure vaccines.
I'm not sure if that counts.
Well, I'd never had full-blown rabies emphasis of a full-blown you know, I've
I've been bitten by animals mainly bats and monkeys who take a particular
dislike to everything about me and they were Possible suspects for having
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rabies so it's sort of you go in there Then you get the series of three
shots in the stomach later to make sure that you're okay But yeah, it's quite a
miserable drug and the vaccine the other one that's awful is yellow fever,
which if you go to the some of the places that we like to go to
it's a good idea to be vaccinated and So, you know when when Kovac hit and
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the vaccine came out everyone's saying how scary it was.
That's just a Wednesday for me You know If I if I haven't got some weird
drug being pumped into my body because I'm about to be Bitten on the testicles
by an angry monkey.
I just think that I'm wasting my life.
Oh That's good to know you're not wasting your life now, I'm second-guessing my
life choices However, I did break a collarbone fly off my bike in the second
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grade So I hope I've earned your trust you have you have and you're a big
guy, too So that that said gravity is not your friend.
So I do respect that.
Hmm You can relate Let's go on to it.
Now.
What kind of thrilling story do you have to share with our our listeners today?
Well, there's a lot to choose from most of which ended in a rather painful
matter But the one that meant the most to me was my first expedition to
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Kutztunwu in the Alexander Archipelago in southeast Alaska looking at the Well
what have historically been known as the ABC bears from in English, you know
Admiral Admiralty then the Russian islands at Chichagof and Baranoff, but but
of course in Tlingit which is the original Stewards of this land a continuous
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culture going back over 10,000 years Admiralty is called Chichagof is called
Kutztunwu and that is Tlingit means fortress of the bears.
Kutz is the Tlingit word for bear But it literally in English means armored
chest, which is a reflection of how indomitable these giant Alaskan coastal
brown bears and Interesting story about this place when the permission Nikki
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which were the Siberian fur trappers in the 1700s made their way to the
Americas Well, it was Russia America at that time in Alaska They sort of went
through These are tough people and they went through You know past Kodiak and
and you know and Katmai and Kenai and all the big K's, you know before they
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get to Kutztunwu and They called the island.
They see these giant bears patrolling the shore and they call the island
Osterov Kutztunwi Which means island of fear and you know, obviously if you've
seen the giant bears on any of those places, you know But anyone to think why
would we ever go ashore there having faced those bears gives you some idea of
how enormous these bears are But their size varies and there's a lot of debate
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about their genetic history and I Have always been interested in bears but
would never really as someone from Tasmania, Australia in a position to do much
about it and Then you know for my sins I fell in love with an American
the glamorous and brilliant woman who's my beautiful wife and the mother of our
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little little children little golden cubs and She was working for Disney at the
time and she was building, you know hotels and restaurants She's an architect
among other things at the various properties around the world so she was off to
France and she was Japan and Hong Kong and I'm a you know, Tasmanian mountain
man, and I come from a place Where there's very few people and I found moving
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to Los Angeles to be quite overwhelming you know, I had a farm in Tasmania and
I went on this mountain and down to the sea and I would have maybe six
or seven people on the beach in front of The farm a year and five of
them would be penguins, you know, so it's very sparse Population coming here
where with all respect to the Angelinos that I know and love, you know It's
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this giant smog bubble of angry vegans And I really struggled to be happy here
when my wife wasn't here because I just like I'd stay here anywhere for her But
just too many people too many cars and no one visitors very few penguins not
enough I would say and So it was it was kind of frustrating and then I
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just thought why would I stay at LA and be unhappy on my own?
When I'm so close to some of the most spectacular their habitat on the planet
and so I just started doing a little bit of research and And found out about
these kutznubu bears and their extraordinary cultural significance to the
Tlingit people and And I thought I'm gonna go for it.
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And so not knowing anything or not knowing anybody.
I took a plane and changed planes in Seattle and then got to Juneau and then
got into another seaplane and then flew to Angoon and And whenever my wife
would head off to these Projects and she was going to sometimes two weeks a
month and sometimes a week a month and I would just get on a plane and
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go back to Alaska and I did it for years but the most significant time was
that first year and it was interesting because no one would talk to me on the
island and Until they found out that I was formerly a paratrooper and they have
a very honorable martial history where it's considered a very important
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Development phase as a young person to have served in the military whether your
Navy or or You know, God forbid the Air Force you know Marines and so once
they knew that I was a soldier suddenly I attained personhood as it were and
Started getting to know some of the local Hunters and Fishers and all the rest.
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I actually got to speak to people and people would guide me to show me these
bears and It was extraordinary.
You imagine you spent your whole life thinking, you know something about bears
but you've never been in the wild with them and these things are enormous and
You know, it was quite a shock to me Despite all the different wildlife
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experiences.
I've had including with you know, giant Australian crocodiles in northern
Australia and all the rest like I've been around big predators before But
seeing these absolutely colossal bears, you know well over a thousand pounds
Just roaming around and there's no moat or Fence between you and them.
I saw my first really big could snooze a brown bear boar I pretty sure I
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actually heard my penis gasp, you know, it was just oh my god it is so
big so monumental something as big as a as a bison, but you know a Giant
carnivorous God and it was just crazy and I've never been one of those people
to say I Know so much about an animal.
I know what it's gonna do.
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I have some idea I've spent you know, six seven years studying these bears now
but you never really know exactly what they're gonna do and One thing that I
think about all the time Speaking with other wildlife conservationists is it
doesn't matter if you're going to put snooze to see the bears You might be
going there to study their endemic dwarf squirrels You might be going there to
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to to look at the the goose tongue grasses and various other sedges It doesn't
matter you're sharing that same risk with these giant predators and you know
Every now and then that risk does not pay off and someone gets badly injured or
killed.
So I have this enormous respect for Other people who put their time Into doing
actual fieldwork and trying to add to that body of knowledge and people like
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yourself as well Who'd get out there doesn't matter whether you're going into
Africa to see giraffe You're still at risk from a host of deadly carnivores and
you know venomous snakes and so forth but yeah, it was an incredible experience
to see how they behave and there is these various stratum of Behaviors with
these bears.
They're highly intelligent the level of curiosity and Caution it has as much to
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do with their colossal size as their genetics because they're not doing stupid
things to expose themselves This is not like Brooks Falls We can go there and
see 20 30 bears a day on the on the waterfalls picking off the off the
salmon These are not bears that are used to seeing people one of the high
points of my field time there was and this is all documented in the in in
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Fear Island fortress of the bears a doco that we did for animal planet is we
managed to Following oral history with my Tlingit brother and guide Alvin
Johnson We managed to sort of reverse engineer this sort of 400 to 500 year old
trail That just hadn't been used called drum pass trail The Tlingit would take
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from the south of the island Opposite take on the mainland and make their way
up through bear pass mountain down into Down into Hood Bay and You know, this
called drum pass mountain because the Tlingit would beat these drums as they
were walking over this mountain to let the bears know they were coming and To
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stay at a safe distance from them, but it was extraordinary.
Just this this connection the Tlingit look at bears as being Semi-human as a
sort of magical Quasi-magical creatures and to get these stories of bears And
how they there are so many Tlingit stories that are teachable moments put into
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these sort of parables and you know how the story of people make mistakes about
the man who married the bear and the woman who married the bear and and These
Giants who the death of these Giants who killed this man's brothers and then in
a very creative fashion ends up being the point of origin for mosquitoes in
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Alaska because he young brother kills this giant and Then he throws his body on
the fire and it becomes ash and he doesn't want to become a pile of ash
He blows the ash into the air and the hot ashes land on his skin And
that is the sensation of the first mosquito bites it turned into mosquitoes,
but all these different stories Which now sadly have become superseded by you
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know, Sasquatch Bigfoot bullshit And but all these origin stories run through
bears about how to behave how to acknowledge someone's true identity and true
Character and you know, what makes the forest dangerous or safe?
It's really really interesting I mean, there's even a clock that runs off these
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animal behaviors up there So for example, you don't eat what they call The sea
vegetables, but it's really not just vegetables.
It's actually mostly bivalves, so it's you know, razor clams gumboots butter
clams stuff like that you don't touch that until After the woodcock starts
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calling for this bird It's funny little birds that's calling and that's in
early spring and once that's happened early to mid spring The shellfish start
building up these this bacterial defense.
And so if you start eating the These shellfish at that time, you're very likely
to get ciguatera or other horrible horrible You know in You know stomach issues
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And what's fascinating is they know this because it goes back to the bears stop
doing it so I can I I had this one bear we call the cub called
Missy B and not her real name and So she I could tell you when her
mother was killed by another bear because I could see that she was still
pulling up stones on the beaches and looking for Looking for these bivalves and
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I know that her mother would have stopped that by mid spring So now I know
her mother died almost as soon as she came out of hibernation Because the
little bear had not learned When to stop eating this stuff and she was two and
so she she died We know the mother died after she'd been weaned But not before
the mother the young cub had gone from milk to solid food more than one season
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And so there's this whole clock system around the wildlife there as well as
this extraordinarily rich cultural history That has real practical applications
to moving through the wild places of Southeast, Alaska.
So it was really It was probably the richest wildlife experience I've ever had
Because there were so many layers to it, I mean, it's such a beautiful rugged
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island and you know as interesting from a botanical point of view as it is from
a wildlife point of view and The as I said the time there is the cling
it don't talk about time in terms of hours or days it's talked about in terms
of moons and and So everything is about still about natural order.
Now when I first started going there, you couldn't even get cell phone service
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Which was fantastic now, they've got some new relays and you can but it really
felt like the bear equivalent of Jurassic Park That you were stepping back into
a time of just giant beasts and unique plants and You know, I expected to have
a great adventure But it exceeded my hopes and expectations on on every level
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How amazing to be part of just engulfed in that culture?
I learned so much of how they their way of life and how they incorporate their
lives to the bears there how so Someone who hasn't seen a bear or like for
myself who's only been exposed to our local black bears here in California Like
how big are we are we talking?
Massive.
I mean we were looking for on the documentary.
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We talked about one particular bear Nicknamed grandfather that grandfather is
this is what's interesting all bears there Greeted by the Tlingit as
grandmother or grandfather depending, you know on their gender and age, so it's
but there's one particular bear that was we had photos of it was just enormous
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and He was a blonde bear, which is not super common in that part of the
world They do have some lighter coloration.
They have some very dark coloration particularly in their winter pelt and You
get a lot of what we call silver tips, which is a dark bear and But
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you get that kind of classic grizzly V pattern around the neck you know, like
it's wearing a old-fashioned cricket sweater or something, you know, and this
light V color and Colloquially, you know Well, I should say anecdotally People
talk about the silver tips as being the most dangerous and aggressive of the
bears I've not seen any evidence to support that at all But a lot of people
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say oh, they're the ones that live in the mountains Well, that's wrong on two
levels because the more the larger and more aggressive the bear the closer It
gets to the main feeding grounds, which are all at sea level basically So the
bears that are inland and the bears that are in the mountains are usually the
smaller of them now There's anomalies the bears move around they hunt deer
there They we have the small Sitka blacktail deer Which is quite a small sized
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deer and you wouldn't think a bear could catch it, but they can't they faster
than Then you know Usain Bolt So you don't have any chance at all Plus they
got these giant all-wheel drive four giant paws and they can run over the soft
You know tree fall and dead fall and moss and the deer get their little tiny
hoof stuck in it You know, so they do run down deer all the rest of
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it, but in terms of size comparisons We The three large bears we were hoping to
find and we ended up just finding grandfather of the three large bears We'd
seen or heard about we tracked down we thought grandfather was was definitely
north of 2,000 pounds Which is colossal and easily as heavy as the largest bear
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ever found which was back in Kotzebue Sound a polar bear in the 1960s Easily as
big as the biggest polar bear ever recorded in terms of mass But the easier way
to think about it is that most people when you think about grizzly bears you
think about you know, the Denali and places like that and and These bears get
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to be you know, two to three times the size of these interior grizzlies so
they're absolutely monumental and Now they're they have a range of sizes there
The genetics are interesting because and this is the one of things you've set
out to prove was that one the the kutz new blue brown bears were not Identical
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in terms of genetics to the other ABC bears and to that You know, it was
forged in a genetic union back in the last ice age when that whole area was
part of what we call a refugia, which is to say a temperate space surrounded by
ice and You know, this is in a place that they called Beringia, which was a
giant ice bridge from you know Russia to the Americas And so you had this is
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back when you still had these these what we would think of now as prehistoric
megafauna, you know With your woolly rhinos and mammoth and all the rest of it
And so what we were trying to find out was are the genetics What kind of
mix are they of these ancient species and and it was there a connection to the
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American short-faced bear and Because some of the giant bears we we took
photographs of really had that short-faced bear You know body geometry long
forelimbs long neck a shorter face and huge, you know huge we would look at the
general rule for bears when you're trying to assess their size from a distance
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is Whatever their height is to the hump while they're on all four feet You just
basically double that and that is the top of their head when they're standing
up and You know, we were seeing a lot of these bears most most brown bears
don't get to You know nine feet and we were seeing a lot of bears We
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were estimating that were well over nine feet and and so these are absolute
giant bears anyway, what we found in the end is that we collected a lot of
a lot of hair samples and At about I don't know about ten locations in some
of the major bear spotting locations to the the south of the island, which as I
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said other than Angoon no one really goes there and You know, it was very
interesting because it came back as Polar bears from you know, roughly 20,000
years ago as well as brown bears Ice Age era brown bears, but then we had
Then we had and I say we we sent the samples out to To Charlotte Lindquist
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who's considered the top sort of bear geneticist and she's at the University of
New York in Buffalo and we sent it over to her and she said yeah, you've
got ancient polar bear here got ancient brown bear It is slightly different
from the other ABC bears and then we had this genetic anomaly Which we couldn't
compare to anything There's a problem with our theory of trying to compare it
to a short-faced bear was that there is no short-faced bear DNA to compare
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it to so all we know is we have this anomalous Genetic X factor and we
can't prove it.
Now.
There was a project down in Mexico where they were Rebuilding the genetic
profile of a short-faced bear Using environmental DNA and for those who don't
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know what that means It just means that we now have the technology where we
don't just have to take Say a bit of bone marrow or tooth or whatever if
we don't have that we can just get the tiny relics of DNA from the area
where the animal was and that is enough for us to put it all together and
anyway, they were working on that down in Mexico and I've been waiting ever
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since to see what it's gonna look like and then can we compare that to what
we have but until we Have that it's just a theory and we can't make any
grand claims about being you know, a New species or a new subspecies and so
forth.
We really can't do that.
And as you know in this in this field people, you know God the identification
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new species pretty jealously and I remember going to even a keynote at a tapir
conference in Houston and You know, everybody knows you've got your Malayan
tapirs and you've got your you know beds Highland and lowland but then there's
other groups saying no we've done this genetic research now and there's a
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fourth species in the in the Americas and I'm telling you it was fighting
woods.
People were not happy with anyone being you know, making any grand claim like
that It's just a very funny business.
So I Know that way too.
Well, it's happening right now with giraffes and how many species is there?
Oh, yeah.
What's the theory?
What I don't I'm not what I didn't lose still identifies them as one species of
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giraffe Realized and divided in nine subspecies Throughout observation
foundation.
They've done the research.
They've done all the genetic testing They they show that there's four full
species of giraffes.
Yeah.
Wow, the Messiah particularly the northern and the southern Interesting.
So what it's just it's just this incredibly I don't want to slam You know
fellow wildlife, you know conservationists, but it is so Strange I mean there's
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two different schools, right?
I was like when I was a kid I always wanted to be someone who discovered
a new species and my passion as a little kid was was beetles and You know
ten thousand new beetles identified every year So I've got a pretty good chance
if I'm gonna that's the thing, but I still haven't done it It's very hard to
do You know, it's not like just finding a gold coin on the beach It's far
more difficult than that because you need to know that there's possibly gold
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coins in existence and how to identify it's by the coins And blah blah blah
that analogy is going nowhere.
But the point is it's just one of those tricky things but there is these people
who are Desperate, you know to have you know, the Mike Bonner giraffe as a
thing and then there are those of us who go No, let's just call it the
kuchnow bear You know rather than a it's so there's a sort of imperialists who
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want to take it over And even if you don't think that way, they just do
not want you in the club They just do not and so this isn't even like
discovery a new species of giraffe These are giraffes are already recognized
But you know people are saying that there's four species other like they want
their name on the paper saying no, there's five species There's three.
No, there's still only one Why can't we all just agree, you know, it's for the
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betterment of the giraffe and conservation But I agree because there's what is
it dilutes the urgency for giraffe conservation if you just go Oh, they're all
giraffe and we have plenty as opposed to well.
Yeah, this one's doing okay ish but this one is really on its last legs and
Right, yeah, if you can recognize the northern giraffe as its own species
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they'd be considered critically endangered and would require extra attention
and You know help to maintain their their existence exactly.
No, it's it's strange.
Anyway, so we As I said, we would we would never had any interest in
identifying this particular bear as anything, but the could still be brown bear
All right.
Well, I look forward to hopefully in the near future.
(28:05):
We can get more research done and find out you know I would love that.
I mean these bears are it would be fascinating I just really want to connect
the dots and find out if this anomaly, you know, I like to similar Senate or
something else but yeah, I just sorry, yeah, I was just like this because the
Wenzes that's the goal and you know, but We'll see what happens, but it is a
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fascinating place and it's just so rich I remember just spending a whole day
down at What was that by I'll think of it in a second and It was
high summer and the berries were out and they have so many different berries
there the predominant two species are Salmon berries, which come in many colors
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not just salmon pink But and thimble berries, which is a thimble berry if you
haven't had one, it's like a giant Button-shaped raspberry and it tastes nice a
little bit sort of weird kind of rust taste to it but it's still a you
know, it's not as sweet as a raspberry and Anyway, these are very dense Bushes
not that tall maybe, you know, I don't know 12 15 feet tall mostly less than
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that and tricky because as I said I'm just giving you the guide and how to
size a bear if it's down on all fours It could be at 8 foot 10
foot bear, but anything behind a bush of more than 4 or 5 feet It's invisible
and they're smart.
These are not social bears as far as humans are concerned.
They like to keep their distance and and So I remember we'd pull up alongside
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these waterways and if you see a giant copes of thimble berries and set up some
camera traps and so forth because we know we're gonna get some action there and
Sometimes you get there at the wrong time or the right time depending what your
point of view is and this bear would just come Rocketing out and you never saw
it until it was basically on you and Which is always a little bit thrilling
(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) And welcome in you did it you found it you're at the Wild Tales podcast I
don't know how you found it, but I'm glad you did and I'm glad you're here.
Welcome in.
This is Wild Tales It's a storytelling podcast, but all the stories are animal
related.
Allow me to introduce myself I am your host.
My name is Mike Bona and for over two decades I've been knee-deep in the
(00:41):
world of animals from majestic creatures roaming our wild spaces to the quirky
companions sharing our homes I have been a zookeeper, a trainer, a
conservationist I've had the incredible privilege of working with a wide range
of different species, but there's one thing I've learned Animals have a knack
for turning ordinary lives into extraordinary adventures And that was part of
(01:04):
the inspiration for creating this podcast Wild Tales This podcast isn't just
about any stories It's about the ones where our furry feathered or scaly
friends take center stage Whether it's a hilarious encounter, a heart-pounding
escape, or a heartwarming tale of friendship We're diving headfirst into the
(01:25):
wild world of animal stories So prepare for a rollercoaster ride of emotions as
we explore the incredible stories that happen when humans and animals cross
paths Let me get into it with our very first guest I am Extremely excited to
introduce you to the incredibly talented Bradley Trevor Greaves He's an
(01:50):
acclaimed author, illustrator environmentalist and conservationist Bradley has
captured the hearts of millions with his stunning artwork and inspiring
messages.
His Netflix special series Adventure Beasts I highly recommend it.
It's an absolute must-watch for anyone who loves animals and a good laugh.
(02:10):
It's basically an animated conservation series Sort of like Kratts creatures,
but for adults.
It's very hilarious.
Very quirky humor I can't recommend it highly enough Anyway, I'm truly excited
to hear what tale he has to offer us.
So without further ado Welcome in Bradley Trevor Greaves I To
(02:39):
change our voices to sound sexier, I don't know if he can sounds any sexier
true.
I look like my next bunch Bob boys Be good Oh Bradley Trevor Greaves BTG.
I'm so happy that you agreed to Join my podcast and tell an exciting story for
my three loyal listeners I may be optimistic without estimate but the settling
(03:05):
with the loyal part.
Yeah We'll see so you have a Long history of working with animals and wildlife.
I asked you to pick one story Which I'm sure I could have you on every
week, but I think you have time commitments I have two small children.
So time is just a abstract concept for me now Maybe I can discuss with you
(03:26):
every morning at 2 a.m. Since I know you're up at that time You do
know I'm up because you've texted me from Africa and I was up changing diapers
and we agree that your life is now better I'll take it.
I think one of my most favorite facts about you is your extensive list of
injuries and surgeries You've had throughout your life.
It's true.
I've made a Very long series of poor choices to be the man that I am
(03:49):
today I actually lost count of how many wildlife injuries I've had or I know
I've had somewhere up to getting close to 30 surgeries Now and I've had eight
treatments for rabies but Yeah, I feel like you know, you can't trust someone
until they've broken a bone, you know It's you know I said that as a former
soldier and and definitely as someone in the wildlife conservation space if
(04:11):
someone hasn't had a treatment for rabies I'm very dubious of their commitment
to their fieldwork Well, I've had the pre-exposure vaccines.
I'm not sure if that counts.
Well, I'd never had full-blown rabies emphasis of a full-blown you know, I've
I've been bitten by animals mainly bats and monkeys who take a particular
dislike to everything about me and they were Possible suspects for having
(04:34):
rabies so it's sort of you go in there Then you get the series of three
shots in the stomach later to make sure that you're okay But yeah, it's quite a
miserable drug and the vaccine the other one that's awful is yellow fever,
which if you go to the some of the places that we like to go to
it's a good idea to be vaccinated and So, you know when when Kovac hit and
(04:55):
the vaccine came out everyone's saying how scary it was.
That's just a Wednesday for me You know If I if I haven't got some weird
drug being pumped into my body because I'm about to be Bitten on the testicles
by an angry monkey.
I just think that I'm wasting my life.
Oh That's good to know you're not wasting your life now, I'm second-guessing my
life choices However, I did break a collarbone fly off my bike in the second
(05:18):
grade So I hope I've earned your trust you have you have and you're a big
guy, too So that that said gravity is not your friend.
So I do respect that.
Hmm You can relate Let's go on to it.
Now.
What kind of thrilling story do you have to share with our our listeners today?
Well, there's a lot to choose from most of which ended in a rather painful
matter But the one that meant the most to me was my first expedition to
(05:45):
Kutztunwu in the Alexander Archipelago in southeast Alaska looking at the Well
what have historically been known as the ABC bears from in English, you know
Admiral Admiralty then the Russian islands at Chichagof and Baranoff, but but
of course in Tlingit which is the original Stewards of this land a continuous
(06:07):
culture going back over 10,000 years Admiralty is called Chichagof is called
Kutztunwu and that is Tlingit means fortress of the bears.
Kutz is the Tlingit word for bear But it literally in English means armored
chest, which is a reflection of how indomitable these giant Alaskan coastal
brown bears and Interesting story about this place when the permission Nikki
(06:31):
which were the Siberian fur trappers in the 1700s made their way to the
Americas Well, it was Russia America at that time in Alaska They sort of went
through These are tough people and they went through You know past Kodiak and
and you know and Katmai and Kenai and all the big K's, you know before they
(06:51):
get to Kutztunwu and They called the island.
They see these giant bears patrolling the shore and they call the island
Osterov Kutztunwi Which means island of fear and you know, obviously if you've
seen the giant bears on any of those places, you know But anyone to think why
would we ever go ashore there having faced those bears gives you some idea of
how enormous these bears are But their size varies and there's a lot of debate
(07:14):
about their genetic history and I Have always been interested in bears but
would never really as someone from Tasmania, Australia in a position to do much
about it and Then you know for my sins I fell in love with an American
the glamorous and brilliant woman who's my beautiful wife and the mother of our
(07:35):
little little children little golden cubs and She was working for Disney at the
time and she was building, you know hotels and restaurants She's an architect
among other things at the various properties around the world so she was off to
France and she was Japan and Hong Kong and I'm a you know, Tasmanian mountain
man, and I come from a place Where there's very few people and I found moving
(08:01):
to Los Angeles to be quite overwhelming you know, I had a farm in Tasmania and
I went on this mountain and down to the sea and I would have maybe six
or seven people on the beach in front of The farm a year and five of
them would be penguins, you know, so it's very sparse Population coming here
where with all respect to the Angelinos that I know and love, you know It's
(08:25):
this giant smog bubble of angry vegans And I really struggled to be happy here
when my wife wasn't here because I just like I'd stay here anywhere for her But
just too many people too many cars and no one visitors very few penguins not
enough I would say and So it was it was kind of frustrating and then I
(08:45):
just thought why would I stay at LA and be unhappy on my own?
When I'm so close to some of the most spectacular their habitat on the planet
and so I just started doing a little bit of research and And found out about
these kutznubu bears and their extraordinary cultural significance to the
Tlingit people and And I thought I'm gonna go for it.
(09:08):
And so not knowing anything or not knowing anybody.
I took a plane and changed planes in Seattle and then got to Juneau and then
got into another seaplane and then flew to Angoon and And whenever my wife
would head off to these Projects and she was going to sometimes two weeks a
month and sometimes a week a month and I would just get on a plane and
(09:32):
go back to Alaska and I did it for years but the most significant time was
that first year and it was interesting because no one would talk to me on the
island and Until they found out that I was formerly a paratrooper and they have
a very honorable martial history where it's considered a very important
(09:53):
Development phase as a young person to have served in the military whether your
Navy or or You know, God forbid the Air Force you know Marines and so once
they knew that I was a soldier suddenly I attained personhood as it were and
Started getting to know some of the local Hunters and Fishers and all the rest.
(10:16):
I actually got to speak to people and people would guide me to show me these
bears and It was extraordinary.
You imagine you spent your whole life thinking, you know something about bears
but you've never been in the wild with them and these things are enormous and
You know, it was quite a shock to me Despite all the different wildlife
(10:37):
experiences.
I've had including with you know, giant Australian crocodiles in northern
Australia and all the rest like I've been around big predators before But
seeing these absolutely colossal bears, you know well over a thousand pounds
Just roaming around and there's no moat or Fence between you and them.
I saw my first really big could snooze a brown bear boar I pretty sure I
(11:02):
actually heard my penis gasp, you know, it was just oh my god it is so
big so monumental something as big as a as a bison, but you know a Giant
carnivorous God and it was just crazy and I've never been one of those people
to say I Know so much about an animal.
I know what it's gonna do.
(11:23):
I have some idea I've spent you know, six seven years studying these bears now
but you never really know exactly what they're gonna do and One thing that I
think about all the time Speaking with other wildlife conservationists is it
doesn't matter if you're going to put snooze to see the bears You might be
going there to study their endemic dwarf squirrels You might be going there to
(11:47):
to to look at the the goose tongue grasses and various other sedges It doesn't
matter you're sharing that same risk with these giant predators and you know
Every now and then that risk does not pay off and someone gets badly injured or
killed.
So I have this enormous respect for Other people who put their time Into doing
actual fieldwork and trying to add to that body of knowledge and people like
(12:10):
yourself as well Who'd get out there doesn't matter whether you're going into
Africa to see giraffe You're still at risk from a host of deadly carnivores and
you know venomous snakes and so forth but yeah, it was an incredible experience
to see how they behave and there is these various stratum of Behaviors with
these bears.
They're highly intelligent the level of curiosity and Caution it has as much to
(12:39):
do with their colossal size as their genetics because they're not doing stupid
things to expose themselves This is not like Brooks Falls We can go there and
see 20 30 bears a day on the on the waterfalls picking off the off the
salmon These are not bears that are used to seeing people one of the high
points of my field time there was and this is all documented in the in in
(13:03):
Fear Island fortress of the bears a doco that we did for animal planet is we
managed to Following oral history with my Tlingit brother and guide Alvin
Johnson We managed to sort of reverse engineer this sort of 400 to 500 year old
trail That just hadn't been used called drum pass trail The Tlingit would take
(13:27):
from the south of the island Opposite take on the mainland and make their way
up through bear pass mountain down into Down into Hood Bay and You know, this
called drum pass mountain because the Tlingit would beat these drums as they
were walking over this mountain to let the bears know they were coming and To
(13:49):
stay at a safe distance from them, but it was extraordinary.
Just this this connection the Tlingit look at bears as being Semi-human as a
sort of magical Quasi-magical creatures and to get these stories of bears And
how they there are so many Tlingit stories that are teachable moments put into
(14:12):
these sort of parables and you know how the story of people make mistakes about
the man who married the bear and the woman who married the bear and and These
Giants who the death of these Giants who killed this man's brothers and then in
a very creative fashion ends up being the point of origin for mosquitoes in
(14:33):
Alaska because he young brother kills this giant and Then he throws his body on
the fire and it becomes ash and he doesn't want to become a pile of ash
He blows the ash into the air and the hot ashes land on his skin And
that is the sensation of the first mosquito bites it turned into mosquitoes,
but all these different stories Which now sadly have become superseded by you
(14:57):
know, Sasquatch Bigfoot bullshit And but all these origin stories run through
bears about how to behave how to acknowledge someone's true identity and true
Character and you know, what makes the forest dangerous or safe?
It's really really interesting I mean, there's even a clock that runs off these
(15:17):
animal behaviors up there So for example, you don't eat what they call The sea
vegetables, but it's really not just vegetables.
It's actually mostly bivalves, so it's you know, razor clams gumboots butter
clams stuff like that you don't touch that until After the woodcock starts
(15:37):
calling for this bird It's funny little birds that's calling and that's in
early spring and once that's happened early to mid spring The shellfish start
building up these this bacterial defense.
And so if you start eating the These shellfish at that time, you're very likely
to get ciguatera or other horrible horrible You know in You know stomach issues
(16:02):
And what's fascinating is they know this because it goes back to the bears stop
doing it so I can I I had this one bear we call the cub called
Missy B and not her real name and So she I could tell you when her
mother was killed by another bear because I could see that she was still
pulling up stones on the beaches and looking for Looking for these bivalves and
(16:27):
I know that her mother would have stopped that by mid spring So now I know
her mother died almost as soon as she came out of hibernation Because the
little bear had not learned When to stop eating this stuff and she was two and
so she she died We know the mother died after she'd been weaned But not before
the mother the young cub had gone from milk to solid food more than one season
(16:51):
And so there's this whole clock system around the wildlife there as well as
this extraordinarily rich cultural history That has real practical applications
to moving through the wild places of Southeast, Alaska.
So it was really It was probably the richest wildlife experience I've ever had
Because there were so many layers to it, I mean, it's such a beautiful rugged
(17:13):
island and you know as interesting from a botanical point of view as it is from
a wildlife point of view and The as I said the time there is the cling
it don't talk about time in terms of hours or days it's talked about in terms
of moons and and So everything is about still about natural order.
Now when I first started going there, you couldn't even get cell phone service
(17:35):
Which was fantastic now, they've got some new relays and you can but it really
felt like the bear equivalent of Jurassic Park That you were stepping back into
a time of just giant beasts and unique plants and You know, I expected to have
a great adventure But it exceeded my hopes and expectations on on every level
(18:00):
How amazing to be part of just engulfed in that culture?
I learned so much of how they their way of life and how they incorporate their
lives to the bears there how so Someone who hasn't seen a bear or like for
myself who's only been exposed to our local black bears here in California Like
how big are we are we talking?
Massive.
I mean we were looking for on the documentary.
(18:21):
We talked about one particular bear Nicknamed grandfather that grandfather is
this is what's interesting all bears there Greeted by the Tlingit as
grandmother or grandfather depending, you know on their gender and age, so it's
but there's one particular bear that was we had photos of it was just enormous
(18:42):
and He was a blonde bear, which is not super common in that part of the
world They do have some lighter coloration.
They have some very dark coloration particularly in their winter pelt and You
get a lot of what we call silver tips, which is a dark bear and But
(19:04):
you get that kind of classic grizzly V pattern around the neck you know, like
it's wearing a old-fashioned cricket sweater or something, you know, and this
light V color and Colloquially, you know Well, I should say anecdotally People
talk about the silver tips as being the most dangerous and aggressive of the
bears I've not seen any evidence to support that at all But a lot of people
(19:27):
say oh, they're the ones that live in the mountains Well, that's wrong on two
levels because the more the larger and more aggressive the bear the closer It
gets to the main feeding grounds, which are all at sea level basically So the
bears that are inland and the bears that are in the mountains are usually the
smaller of them now There's anomalies the bears move around they hunt deer
there They we have the small Sitka blacktail deer Which is quite a small sized
(19:49):
deer and you wouldn't think a bear could catch it, but they can't they faster
than Then you know Usain Bolt So you don't have any chance at all Plus they
got these giant all-wheel drive four giant paws and they can run over the soft
You know tree fall and dead fall and moss and the deer get their little tiny
hoof stuck in it You know, so they do run down deer all the rest of
(20:12):
it, but in terms of size comparisons We The three large bears we were hoping to
find and we ended up just finding grandfather of the three large bears We'd
seen or heard about we tracked down we thought grandfather was was definitely
north of 2,000 pounds Which is colossal and easily as heavy as the largest bear
(20:33):
ever found which was back in Kotzebue Sound a polar bear in the 1960s Easily as
big as the biggest polar bear ever recorded in terms of mass But the easier way
to think about it is that most people when you think about grizzly bears you
think about you know, the Denali and places like that and and These bears get
(20:56):
to be you know, two to three times the size of these interior grizzlies so
they're absolutely monumental and Now they're they have a range of sizes there
The genetics are interesting because and this is the one of things you've set
out to prove was that one the the kutz new blue brown bears were not Identical
(21:19):
in terms of genetics to the other ABC bears and to that You know, it was
forged in a genetic union back in the last ice age when that whole area was
part of what we call a refugia, which is to say a temperate space surrounded by
ice and You know, this is in a place that they called Beringia, which was a
giant ice bridge from you know Russia to the Americas And so you had this is
(21:44):
back when you still had these these what we would think of now as prehistoric
megafauna, you know With your woolly rhinos and mammoth and all the rest of it
And so what we were trying to find out was are the genetics What kind of
mix are they of these ancient species and and it was there a connection to the
(22:08):
American short-faced bear and Because some of the giant bears we we took
photographs of really had that short-faced bear You know body geometry long
forelimbs long neck a shorter face and huge, you know huge we would look at the
general rule for bears when you're trying to assess their size from a distance
(22:29):
is Whatever their height is to the hump while they're on all four feet You just
basically double that and that is the top of their head when they're standing
up and You know, we were seeing a lot of these bears most most brown bears
don't get to You know nine feet and we were seeing a lot of bears We
(22:50):
were estimating that were well over nine feet and and so these are absolute
giant bears anyway, what we found in the end is that we collected a lot of
a lot of hair samples and At about I don't know about ten locations in some
of the major bear spotting locations to the the south of the island, which as I
(23:14):
said other than Angoon no one really goes there and You know, it was very
interesting because it came back as Polar bears from you know, roughly 20,000
years ago as well as brown bears Ice Age era brown bears, but then we had
Then we had and I say we we sent the samples out to To Charlotte Lindquist
(23:38):
who's considered the top sort of bear geneticist and she's at the University of
New York in Buffalo and we sent it over to her and she said yeah, you've
got ancient polar bear here got ancient brown bear It is slightly different
from the other ABC bears and then we had this genetic anomaly Which we couldn't
compare to anything There's a problem with our theory of trying to compare it
to a short-faced bear was that there is no short-faced bear DNA to compare
(24:02):
it to so all we know is we have this anomalous Genetic X factor and we
can't prove it.
Now.
There was a project down in Mexico where they were Rebuilding the genetic
profile of a short-faced bear Using environmental DNA and for those who don't
(24:23):
know what that means It just means that we now have the technology where we
don't just have to take Say a bit of bone marrow or tooth or whatever if
we don't have that we can just get the tiny relics of DNA from the area
where the animal was and that is enough for us to put it all together and
anyway, they were working on that down in Mexico and I've been waiting ever
(24:46):
since to see what it's gonna look like and then can we compare that to what
we have but until we Have that it's just a theory and we can't make any
grand claims about being you know, a New species or a new subspecies and so
forth.
We really can't do that.
And as you know in this in this field people, you know God the identification
(25:11):
new species pretty jealously and I remember going to even a keynote at a tapir
conference in Houston and You know, everybody knows you've got your Malayan
tapirs and you've got your you know beds Highland and lowland but then there's
other groups saying no we've done this genetic research now and there's a
(25:31):
fourth species in the in the Americas and I'm telling you it was fighting
woods.
People were not happy with anyone being you know, making any grand claim like
that It's just a very funny business.
So I Know that way too.
Well, it's happening right now with giraffes and how many species is there?
Oh, yeah.
What's the theory?
What I don't I'm not what I didn't lose still identifies them as one species of
(25:54):
giraffe Realized and divided in nine subspecies Throughout observation
foundation.
They've done the research.
They've done all the genetic testing They they show that there's four full
species of giraffes.
Yeah.
Wow, the Messiah particularly the northern and the southern Interesting.
So what it's just it's just this incredibly I don't want to slam You know
fellow wildlife, you know conservationists, but it is so Strange I mean there's
(26:19):
two different schools, right?
I was like when I was a kid I always wanted to be someone who discovered
a new species and my passion as a little kid was was beetles and You know
ten thousand new beetles identified every year So I've got a pretty good chance
if I'm gonna that's the thing, but I still haven't done it It's very hard to
do You know, it's not like just finding a gold coin on the beach It's far
more difficult than that because you need to know that there's possibly gold
(26:41):
coins in existence and how to identify it's by the coins And blah blah blah
that analogy is going nowhere.
But the point is it's just one of those tricky things but there is these people
who are Desperate, you know to have you know, the Mike Bonner giraffe as a
thing and then there are those of us who go No, let's just call it the
kuchnow bear You know rather than a it's so there's a sort of imperialists who
(27:02):
want to take it over And even if you don't think that way, they just do
not want you in the club They just do not and so this isn't even like
discovery a new species of giraffe These are giraffes are already recognized
But you know people are saying that there's four species other like they want
their name on the paper saying no, there's five species There's three.
No, there's still only one Why can't we all just agree, you know, it's for the
(27:22):
betterment of the giraffe and conservation But I agree because there's what is
it dilutes the urgency for giraffe conservation if you just go Oh, they're all
giraffe and we have plenty as opposed to well.
Yeah, this one's doing okay ish but this one is really on its last legs and
Right, yeah, if you can recognize the northern giraffe as its own species
(27:43):
they'd be considered critically endangered and would require extra attention
and You know help to maintain their their existence exactly.
No, it's it's strange.
Anyway, so we As I said, we would we would never had any interest in
identifying this particular bear as anything, but the could still be brown bear
All right.
Well, I look forward to hopefully in the near future.
(28:05):
We can get more research done and find out you know I would love that.
I mean these bears are it would be fascinating I just really want to connect
the dots and find out if this anomaly, you know, I like to similar Senate or
something else but yeah, I just sorry, yeah, I was just like this because the
Wenzes that's the goal and you know, but We'll see what happens, but it is a
(28:26):
fascinating place and it's just so rich I remember just spending a whole day
down at What was that by I'll think of it in a second and It was
high summer and the berries were out and they have so many different berries
there the predominant two species are Salmon berries, which come in many colors
(28:49):
not just salmon pink But and thimble berries, which is a thimble berry if you
haven't had one, it's like a giant Button-shaped raspberry and it tastes nice a
little bit sort of weird kind of rust taste to it but it's still a you
know, it's not as sweet as a raspberry and Anyway, these are very dense Bushes
not that tall maybe, you know, I don't know 12 15 feet tall mostly less than
(29:14):
that and tricky because as I said I'm just giving you the guide and how to
size a bear if it's down on all fours It could be at 8 foot 10
foot bear, but anything behind a bush of more than 4 or 5 feet It's invisible
and they're smart.
These are not social bears as far as humans are concerned.
They like to keep their distance and and So I remember we'd pull up alongside
(29:36):
these waterways and if you see a giant copes of thimble berries and set up some
camera traps and so forth because we know we're gonna get some action there and
Sometimes you get there at the wrong time or the right time depending what your
point of view is and this bear would just come Rocketing out and you never saw
it until it was basically on you and Which is always a little bit thrilling
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