November 28, 2024 • 25 mins
In this episode of Wild Tails, join host Mike Bona as he sits down with experienced zookeeper John Scaramucci to share an extraordinary story of wildlife conservation. John takes listeners deep into the Amazon rainforest, recounting his work with the Lowland Tapir Conservation Initiative in Brazil. From the challenges of navigating dense jungle terrain to the meticulous process of safely trapping a tapir, John’s story highlights the critical efforts needed to protect these gentle and often-overlooked creatures.
Discover the fascinating world of tapirs, why they’re vital to the ecosystem, and the conservation work being done to save them from extinction. Whether you’re passionate about wildlife or just love a thrilling story from the field, this episode is a must-listen!
Tune in on your favorite podcast platform now!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:19):
(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) Hello, and welcome to the Wild Tales Podcast.
I am your host, Mike Bona, and if you are one of my listeners in the United
States listening to this podcast on the day it's released, let me wish you a
happy Thanksgiving Day.
Hope you're spending the day with friends and family and loved ones, and let me
know, are you listening to this podcast while you're preparing your turkey?
(00:41):
Hey, speaking of turkeys, before we get to our guests, let me tell you a quick
story since this is a storytelling podcast about myself and Thanksgiving.
Let me take you back to when I was the tender age of three, and my mother
informed me that we were having turkey for Thanksgiving, and I was beyond
(01:02):
excited, spending the whole day in just anticipatory glee, waiting for dinner,
waiting for that beloved turkey to join us for Thanksgiving, only to be
heartbroken and devastated when dinner had arrived, and there wasn't a place
setting put on the table for the turkey to join us at dinner.
Instead, he was on a platter waiting to be consumed for our dinner, and I cried
(01:27):
and cried and cried, because I didn't want to eat a turkey.
I wanted to hang out with a turkey.
Perhaps this was a sign that I was destined to work with animals for the rest
of my life, because I enjoy hanging out with animals.
I don't necessarily remember this story, but I am very familiar with this
story, because my mother tells me this story every year on Thanksgiving for the
(01:52):
past 40-some years.
So I'm aware that when I was three, I cried because we didn't have a live
turkey at Thanksgiving.
And these are the disappointments and traumas that we lived through in our
childhood.
We get through it.
I still have yet to have a Thanksgiving with a live turkey, but maybe one of
these days, that is a dream that I can fulfill.
(02:15):
So I hope you enjoyed that.
Let me introduce our guest.
He's a friend of mine, zookeeper, conservationist, biologist, jack-of-all
-trades, taper, enthusiast.
If you don't know what a taper is, you're about to find out.
His name is John Scaramucci, or if you really want to throw in the Italian
(02:37):
accent, it's a Scaramucci.
He's okay with either.
It's fun to say.
John was nice enough to join the podcast and we had a great chat and I hope you
enjoy it.
So without further ado, please let me introduce you, John Scaramucci.
Sick.
And then, yeah, the actual event was pretty, pretty fun.
(03:01):
All right.
Well, I can't wait to hear it.
Let's get into it.
Let's do it.
All right.
Let's do it.
Hey, John.
Hello.
Come on.
Wildtails.
Thanks, Mike.
What I like about you is as soon as I started this podcast, you messaged me
like, dude, I got a taper story for you.
You want it?
You want to hear it?
Yeah.
I'm like, yeah, yeah.
I'll keep that in the back of my mind.
And when I start writing the one guest and I need someone to hop on and here we
(03:24):
are, refueling right here.
I need you, John.
Yeah.
We're just we're just talking about when we met and neither of us can remember.
Yeah.
It was how good our friendship was definitely zookeeper related.
I know.
That's one nice thing about being zookeepers.
We get to occasionally travel around the country and go to different
(03:44):
conferences and workshops and meet new people and definitely forget where we
met them and then just have good times after that.
Yeah.
That's all this is.
It's good times.
Camaraderie.
Fulfill.
Love it.
Yeah, we're sure.
Definitely.
Yeah.
Well, I know it's happy to be here, man.
This is great.
It's really a small world.
(04:06):
You know, if you ever meet a zookeeper, you know, if you know a zookeeper at a
smaller zoo halfway across the country, there's a good chance they know them or
have heard of them.
At least two degrees.
Two degrees of separation.
You know, you know someone.
At least.
We'll get into your story real quick.
I was visiting in the Netherlands.
It's like 10 years ago and I wanted to go to the Rotterdam Zoo.
(04:29):
So like the morning before I went, I just cold called them.
I'm like, I called the zoo.
I'm like, hey, my name is Mike Bona.
I'm a zookeeper from Los Angeles.
I'm coming to the zoo.
Anyway, like guest passes or just men.
And it turns out, I don't think it's the director.
It's one of the curators there.
(04:50):
I knew our curator.
Heard I was coming, hooked me up, got me tickets, and gave me the VI red tour.
Absolutely.
Just in the cart, in the back of the barn, the meet and greets.
It was the best day.
And it was just because I just rolled the dice.
I'm like, I'm just going to call.
I'm sure someone knows someone.
(05:10):
And I found the right person who knew the right person who knew me.
And it worked out.
Victory.
Absolutely.
It's all the way on the other side of the world.
We love showing each other the hospitality.
You showed me so much love when I went out to L.A. for the visit as well.
So thank you for that.
I love it.
Yeah.
It definitely beats cleaning up after the animals.
(05:31):
When you take a break and just show them off and show your friends what you do.
That's what the team is for.
Exactly.
So, yeah.
Let's get into your story.
I think I teased it a little bit.
I said the word taper.
Taper.
You said it.
That's the magic words.
So for anyone that's not familiar, what is a taper?
(05:51):
Great question.
Taper, besides being the best animal, just period, they're large herbivores.
So they have hooves on their feet.
They're related to rhinos and horses.
So they're each other's closest living relatives.
So they're out there eating fruits and veg.
A lot of leaf matter and that sort of thing.
(06:14):
Seed dispersing.
And there's four different species.
Three of them live in Central and South America.
And then one lives in Southeast Asia.
So for my reference for the story, I went to Brazil.
So their lowland taper or the Brazilian taper is the taper that we're going to
be talking about in my tale.
(06:36):
Fantastic.
I just let it slide when you said they're the best animal.
No question.
I think there's some biases there.
But I will accept that for this one episode.
Tapers are the best.
And I love tapers.
Yeah.
I've gotten to work with mountain tapers, which are just amazing.
And so rare to see in the zoo setting.
(06:57):
They are random and wild.
Both.
Yes.
But they're amazing.
These little long noses almost look like elephant trunks have been cut off from
their eyes.
There you go.
If you want to get fancy with the name, Proboscis.
Yes.
I like to refer to them as prehistoric snorkel horses.
(07:21):
I think that is the best nickname that I've heard for a taper is a prehistoric
snorkel horse.
I can't top that.
That's it.
You can't.
It's too good.
Anyone listening does not know what we're talking about.
Pause it.
Look up taper.
They are.
They're adorable.
They're awesome.
But let's get back to it.
You went to Brazil and you did something with tapers.
(07:42):
Let's see.
Yeah.
I got invited down to do some research with Patty Medici.
She is the best taper person to know on planet Earth.
She's a wealth of knowledge.
She does so much in terms of outreach and education for other taper loving
conservationists and researchers.
(08:03):
I got a chance to go down there in 2015.
We went out to a private cattle ranch, actually, Baia das Pedras, out in the
Pantanal.
That's a region in South America.
Most of it in Brazil is actually owned by private cattle ranchers.
(08:24):
Coming from where I come from, where we come from, that doesn't necessarily
sound like a good place to do conservation work.
But the way that they do it down there very much is in line with keeping
biodiversity intact, not taxing the land too much, spreading a few cows out
over a large amount of space.
It ends up being just a great partnership between the researcher and the
(08:50):
property owner.
So we get down there and we're going to do some taper research.
And the hardest part, Mike, you got to catch them first, right?
How do you catch a taper?
I've been up close to tapers, trained ones that are trained to stand up close,
but they are dense beasts.
Yeah, they are bowling balls of animals.
(09:12):
And so there's a couple of different ways that you can do it.
The most effective and easiest way, it involves a little construction, but you
build basically a trap.
They're called armadillos in Portuguese.
And when you're down there, you build these kind of big crates.
If you've moved rhinos, I'm sure you've seen those big crate type things.
(09:33):
But this is just made out of wood.
But in there for the bait is actually salt, salt lake, because the minerals are
actually a little bit more hard to find out in their environment.
So it attracts them a little bit easier than it would for like fruit or things
like that.
But you can really only do that kind of passively.
So you set a bunch of these traps out there.
(09:55):
If you catch one, great.
But if not, then you have to kind of go hunting for them.
And so the story that I want to talk about is actually when we were doing it
like a night stock hunt.
And this involves the whole team.
And we were out there and it was pitch black already.
This was around 830 or 9 o'clock.
(10:17):
It was already just kind of dark.
And we got out there and we're trying to find this taper.
And we have a site set up for a tree stand.
So one of our teammates was up there, Hanata.
And she was the veterinarian.
She was trained with a dart gun.
Probably the coolest piece of equipment that you can have out there doing field
(10:37):
work is this kind of dart gun.
You've seen one up close, right, Mike?
Oh, yeah.
A couple times.
Have you shot one?
I've not been able to handle the dart gun.
They get one good look at me like, no, we should give this guy a dart gun.
No, he's not trained up enough.
(10:59):
Me either.
But Hanata is.
And she is a marksman.
And so she was up there in this tree stand.
And the rest of the team and I were out a little bit further away.
We're hanging out in the truck and trying to be as quiet as we can.
She's up there above the salt lake in her tree stand, camouflage gear all in
there.
(11:19):
And we're just listening on the radio for a couple hours.
She's up there.
And we're just stone silent in the truck just listening to this radio, trying
to hear any little transmission.
Because the second that she darts it, we need to get there as soon as humanly
possible.
Because this taper is just free to run around.
We don't want to lose it.
(11:39):
So we finally hear that crackle come over the radio.
It's Hanata.
We didn't even hear what she said.
We just knew it was time to go.
We just booked it as fast as we could back to the site.
And she kind of pointed which direction the taper was going.
But she really didn't need to because, like, we could hear it, like, thundering
away.
Tapers running, especially in this environment, like, we can hear it.
(12:04):
And they were just thundering hooves going out in that direction.
I'm not, like, the most athletic guy, Mike.
But, like, I was running what I felt.
I was flying.
I was, like, I was passing people and, like, getting all the way up to the
front.
Like, I caught up to the taper.
The drug starts to take effect pretty quickly.
And then.
Your inner Barry Sanders.
Oh, yeah.
(12:24):
I mean, I was stiff arming, juking.
Yeah, shades of 1991.
Just, like, just running.
And so, like, we finally caught up to the taper.
And at this point, it becomes an immobilization in the field.
So, something that I've done quite a lot as a zookeeper is sit in with
different immobilizations.
(12:45):
But out in the field, it's just kind of a different.
It feels different.
You're kind of a little bit more of a hurry.
You're trying to collect data.
So, like, as soon as the taper went down, we started starting right away.
So, we're doing blood collection.
We're doing measurements and all the different data points that they're up to.
And the coolest thing that we got to do, in my opinion, was put on the radio
(13:07):
collar, which is actually made out of this material right here.
This is actually part of the part of it that they cut off from that exact
taper.
It's marked right over here.
Oh, wow.
July 2nd, 2015.
And so, this is like that hard leather.
It's really.
It's made to kind of go through pretty rough terrain.
(13:30):
And so, they fit it to that specific animal.
This happened to be a young male and was new to the study site.
So, they were very excited to get this specific individual.
That means they're going to get a whole bunch of new data points, especially
with that collar that they're going to put on.
It takes GPS tracking and that sort of thing.
So, there's going to be a bunch of information coming through with that
(13:52):
individual.
And within an hour, they were just done with everything and they're fully
reversed.
And off he goes into the world.
And they extra honored me by, since it was a new taper to the site, they
actually named it Moochie, which is part of my last name, which is where I had
printed on my water bottle.
So, when they first met me, they met me as Moochie.
(14:14):
And so, they named the taper after me.
And from what I understand, he's been doing pretty good.
That's a great honor.
I don't think I have any wild animals named after me yet.
Yeah.
I mean, there's so many more out there.
Come on, Julian.
Get on it.
Come on.
That's great.
So, when you sedate the animal, there's reasons why you want to move quickly
(14:39):
and do the work you have to do.
First of all, what, besides the collaring, were there any other tasks you had
in charge of doing with this animal when it was under?
And what are the risks with the taper being under anesthesia?
Yeah.
So, anytime you're doing an immobilization like this, the main thing you're
trying to get done is not injure the animal.
(15:01):
And so, one of the first things that we start doing is we start putting IV
fluid in.
And we're monitoring heart rate, monitoring respiratory rate, monitoring blood
oxygen level.
So, all of that stuff is going on.
There's things beeping and clicking and doing all sorts of things around you.
My task that I was doing was trying to give that IV fluid.
(15:24):
And we're also, at that point, handing different implements to people.
It's much more of a team effort.
Everybody kind of has their role.
But you're always there to try to help out whoever you're around next to and
that sort of thing.
They were also collecting ticks for a study to try to do disease vector work
and try to figure out some possible connections between tapers, their
(15:48):
distribution habits, and that sort of thing.
So, it was really interesting to just kind of be all of those things happening.
During those things, you're collecting blood.
It has to go in different vials with different caps.
And so, keeping track of everything, labeling everything.
It's a symphony of activities.
(16:08):
And it's always to try to make sure that you first don't do any harm to the
animal.
And so, that's just the best part about doing that kind of field work and being
involved with those kind of procedures.
Yeah, I can relate.
I've done this before with giraffes.
And it's the same.
It's a lot of prep work before.
(16:30):
So, everyone knows what their job is.
Everyone's on the same page.
You want it to be moved fluidly and smoothly and not have any complications and
not miss anything while the animal's taking a little nap.
Yeah.
You're also monitoring every subtle change.
So, maybe it's starting to come up a little bit.
A little movement.
Hey, just let everybody know.
(16:52):
Felt some movement in the feet.
Just letting you know.
So, don't be shy about saying something if you notice something.
So, luckily, the procedure went really, really well.
And once he was reversed, he just moseyed right on out.
Fantastic.
This is the only one animal you did?
Or did you get to work on other animals?
(17:14):
Yeah, this was the only animal that we got a chance to do this way.
There were a couple tapers that we had caught in the box traps.
But they were, like, repeat customers.
And so, they didn't have to do an immobilization for any of those.
So, it was really just that one.
Excellent.
What is the ultimate goal with these tapers and the radio collars?
What are they tracking?
(17:35):
So, that specific site, Patty has been working there for, oh, my goodness, over
20 years.
And so, this is long-term study of spatial distribution because of how intact
that habitat is.
So, there's not really other places that she can do that kind of research.
And the fact that she's been there for that long means that the data points
(17:58):
that she's getting now are just accruing into that huge database.
So, it's so much more impactful of an understanding of how those distributions
are occurring because of such a long time.
And so many tapers have been monitored there.
So, technology has changed.
And so, those radio collars have changed a lot over time as well.
(18:21):
And the amount of information that they're able to get now compared to, what,
20 years ago, it's just an astronomical amount of information.
And it's super important because that's, like, the baseline.
That's the most natural setting.
So, that's where you kind of want to model those possible distributions in
other areas after.
(18:41):
Yeah, it's interesting.
The radio collars and the GPS tags, they vary from species to species.
Their anatomies are so different.
I noticed, you know, with giraffes, there used to be these huge, like,
harnesses that wrap around the giraffe's whole body.
And now, they're just this little, you know, tag that goes in the ear.
Can you tell us how they've kind of adapted over the years with tapers?
(19:05):
How they've changed and what are they using now?
Yeah.
So, it's a collar system.
So, it does go around their neck.
And the bigger side of it just kind of goes right underneath their chin.
The one major thing that you have to remember with tapers is that they're semi
-aquatic.
So, they're going to be jumping in water almost all the time.
(19:28):
So, it has to be waterproof first.
And then, it also has to be very durable.
They're running through very dense underbrush.
And so, it can't be loose on their neck, but it can't be too tight either.
So, that fit is actually really important.
And you also have to take into account the age of the animal that you're
(19:50):
putting the collar on.
And if it's a younger animal, it's going to grow.
And so, you have to have either what she has sometimes is an expanding collar,
so that it can actually grow with the individual, or just have like a timed
release, which they have as well, so that it's not on for too long.
So, that it'll just release and then they go pick it up in the field.
(20:10):
It'll have a signal and you can go grab it.
So, once again, kind of that first main thing is just, you know, you don't want
to be harming the animal that you're studying.
You want it to be as normal and natural behaving as possible.
That's right.
We're like doctors.
Number one rule, do no harm.
Yes.
So, with tapirs, tell us what are their conservation status at the moment and
(20:34):
what are their threats to their species?
Yeah, they're either, you know, declining or endangered in most of their
habitat range.
The Brazilian tapir, the lowland tapir, the kind that we were studying, has the
most of the different tapir species.
But, I mean, its population is definitely on the decline and kind of the, you
(20:54):
know, standard protocol for why anything is going endangered.
Habitat loss, fragmentation, illegal hunting, but also road kill, getting hit
by vehicles, especially in some of the areas that we were studying, which where
we went after the Pantanal region was the Sahada, which is where a lot of
(21:15):
larger agricultural crop, monoculture crops are at, and also a lot of larger
highways.
And so we also then started doing studies on road collisions in that area as
well.
So, going back to the collar, one of the things that we'd added for that site
was actually glow-in-the-dark tape for the collars, because we didn't want the
(21:38):
studied animals to get hit by cars, even though that's what we're studying.
We don't want them to get hit by cars.
And so adding that reflective strip onto what this was already was something
that we did when we were out there.
We just went by like a truck stop and wandered in and just grabbed those, the
(21:59):
same ones that you would put on like a bus or something.
We just cut them up and put them on the radio collars instead.
The most advanced technology available, truck stop tape.
Oh yeah.
You have to be resourceful out there in the field.
Sometimes it's that simple.
That's all you need.
Yes.
Keep it simple.
That's great.
Well, any plans to go out there and do some more work?
(22:22):
Oh, I would absolutely love to.
I would absolutely love to.
Actually, I think I do still talk to Patty every once in a while, and she
referenced the fact that it's been too long, so I might have to just get down
there.
I'd love to go for the bird watching too.
It's really good.
Yeah, I understand.
Going out and doing my giraffe conservation, I want to be out there all the
(22:43):
time and go every year.
But these things have an expense to them that as zookeepers, we can't always
afford.
Yes, absolutely.
I definitely plan on going, and I just want to shout out the shirt real quick.
Anta e elogio.
That means taper is a compliment.
That's one of the campaigns that they've been working on.
It's kind of like changing the sort of narrative on what it means to be a
(23:09):
taper.
It's kind of a derogatory term in Portuguese, and so they're trying to just
kind of own it a little bit more and say that it's a compliment because tapers
are really cool animals.
So if someone calls you a taper, they're calling you a pretty cool person.
Hey, John, you're a taper.
You know what, Mike?
You're a taper too.
I tried.
Oh, well, I'll take it.
(23:31):
This might be my clip for the podcast.
Excellent.
All right.
Well, thanks for coming on and telling that story.
That's pretty fun.
I really enjoyed it.
Yeah, my pleasure.
I will talk about tapers to anybody for any length of time.
And yeah, as a side note, he'll talk about the Detroit Lions for any amount of
(23:52):
time too.
So let's do this here.
Super Bowl, back to back, this year and next.
Calling it right now.
Let's go.
Shooting out next year already, huh?
Confident.
That's a lot of confidence, man.
You really are a taper.
Thank you.
All right, man.
All right.
Sounds good.
Take care, John.
All right.
Bye, Mike.
(24:13):
See?
That easy.
That was so, so good.
That was so great.
Yeah.
Hey, thanks so much to John for joining the podcast.
Hope you all enjoyed that.
If you did, I encourage you to look up tapers, learn more about them, check out
the Lowland Taper Conservation Initiative, and tell your friends, hey, do you
(24:37):
know about this cool animal?
And hey, don't forget, if you want to interact with us, you can do that on
Instagram.
We're at wildtailspod, that's tails, T-A-I-L-S.
You can email wildtailspod at gmail.com.
And you can also interact on our new Blue Sky account, just at wildtails,
(24:58):
again, T-A-I-L-S.
We are no longer on that other site that's a competitor to Blue Sky.
Not even going to mention their name because I'm not even sure what it is
anymore.
But please let me know what you think of the show, what you want to see in the
future.
Do you have a story to tell?
I'd love to hear it.
So you can email me, send me a message through social media.
(25:19):
I would love to hear from you.
Until next time, my friends, stay wild.
(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) Hello, and welcome to the Wild Tales Podcast.
I am your host, Mike Bona, and if you are one of my listeners in the United
States listening to this podcast on the day it's released, let me wish you a
happy Thanksgiving Day.
Hope you're spending the day with friends and family and loved ones, and let me
know, are you listening to this podcast while you're preparing your turkey?
(00:41):
Hey, speaking of turkeys, before we get to our guests, let me tell you a quick
story since this is a storytelling podcast about myself and Thanksgiving.
Let me take you back to when I was the tender age of three, and my mother
informed me that we were having turkey for Thanksgiving, and I was beyond
(01:02):
excited, spending the whole day in just anticipatory glee, waiting for dinner,
waiting for that beloved turkey to join us for Thanksgiving, only to be
heartbroken and devastated when dinner had arrived, and there wasn't a place
setting put on the table for the turkey to join us at dinner.
Instead, he was on a platter waiting to be consumed for our dinner, and I cried
(01:27):
and cried and cried, because I didn't want to eat a turkey.
I wanted to hang out with a turkey.
Perhaps this was a sign that I was destined to work with animals for the rest
of my life, because I enjoy hanging out with animals.
I don't necessarily remember this story, but I am very familiar with this
story, because my mother tells me this story every year on Thanksgiving for the
(01:52):
past 40-some years.
So I'm aware that when I was three, I cried because we didn't have a live
turkey at Thanksgiving.
And these are the disappointments and traumas that we lived through in our
childhood.
We get through it.
I still have yet to have a Thanksgiving with a live turkey, but maybe one of
these days, that is a dream that I can fulfill.
(02:15):
So I hope you enjoyed that.
Let me introduce our guest.
He's a friend of mine, zookeeper, conservationist, biologist, jack-of-all
-trades, taper, enthusiast.
If you don't know what a taper is, you're about to find out.
His name is John Scaramucci, or if you really want to throw in the Italian
(02:37):
accent, it's a Scaramucci.
He's okay with either.
It's fun to say.
John was nice enough to join the podcast and we had a great chat and I hope you
enjoy it.
So without further ado, please let me introduce you, John Scaramucci.
Sick.
And then, yeah, the actual event was pretty, pretty fun.
(03:01):
All right.
Well, I can't wait to hear it.
Let's get into it.
Let's do it.
All right.
Let's do it.
Hey, John.
Hello.
Come on.
Wildtails.
Thanks, Mike.
What I like about you is as soon as I started this podcast, you messaged me
like, dude, I got a taper story for you.
You want it?
You want to hear it?
Yeah.
I'm like, yeah, yeah.
I'll keep that in the back of my mind.
And when I start writing the one guest and I need someone to hop on and here we
(03:24):
are, refueling right here.
I need you, John.
Yeah.
We're just we're just talking about when we met and neither of us can remember.
Yeah.
It was how good our friendship was definitely zookeeper related.
I know.
That's one nice thing about being zookeepers.
We get to occasionally travel around the country and go to different
(03:44):
conferences and workshops and meet new people and definitely forget where we
met them and then just have good times after that.
Yeah.
That's all this is.
It's good times.
Camaraderie.
Fulfill.
Love it.
Yeah, we're sure.
Definitely.
Yeah.
Well, I know it's happy to be here, man.
This is great.
It's really a small world.
(04:06):
You know, if you ever meet a zookeeper, you know, if you know a zookeeper at a
smaller zoo halfway across the country, there's a good chance they know them or
have heard of them.
At least two degrees.
Two degrees of separation.
You know, you know someone.
At least.
We'll get into your story real quick.
I was visiting in the Netherlands.
It's like 10 years ago and I wanted to go to the Rotterdam Zoo.
(04:29):
So like the morning before I went, I just cold called them.
I'm like, I called the zoo.
I'm like, hey, my name is Mike Bona.
I'm a zookeeper from Los Angeles.
I'm coming to the zoo.
Anyway, like guest passes or just men.
And it turns out, I don't think it's the director.
It's one of the curators there.
(04:50):
I knew our curator.
Heard I was coming, hooked me up, got me tickets, and gave me the VI red tour.
Absolutely.
Just in the cart, in the back of the barn, the meet and greets.
It was the best day.
And it was just because I just rolled the dice.
I'm like, I'm just going to call.
I'm sure someone knows someone.
(05:10):
And I found the right person who knew the right person who knew me.
And it worked out.
Victory.
Absolutely.
It's all the way on the other side of the world.
We love showing each other the hospitality.
You showed me so much love when I went out to L.A. for the visit as well.
So thank you for that.
I love it.
Yeah.
It definitely beats cleaning up after the animals.
(05:31):
When you take a break and just show them off and show your friends what you do.
That's what the team is for.
Exactly.
So, yeah.
Let's get into your story.
I think I teased it a little bit.
I said the word taper.
Taper.
You said it.
That's the magic words.
So for anyone that's not familiar, what is a taper?
(05:51):
Great question.
Taper, besides being the best animal, just period, they're large herbivores.
So they have hooves on their feet.
They're related to rhinos and horses.
So they're each other's closest living relatives.
So they're out there eating fruits and veg.
A lot of leaf matter and that sort of thing.
(06:14):
Seed dispersing.
And there's four different species.
Three of them live in Central and South America.
And then one lives in Southeast Asia.
So for my reference for the story, I went to Brazil.
So their lowland taper or the Brazilian taper is the taper that we're going to
be talking about in my tale.
(06:36):
Fantastic.
I just let it slide when you said they're the best animal.
No question.
I think there's some biases there.
But I will accept that for this one episode.
Tapers are the best.
And I love tapers.
Yeah.
I've gotten to work with mountain tapers, which are just amazing.
And so rare to see in the zoo setting.
(06:57):
They are random and wild.
Both.
Yes.
But they're amazing.
These little long noses almost look like elephant trunks have been cut off from
their eyes.
There you go.
If you want to get fancy with the name, Proboscis.
Yes.
I like to refer to them as prehistoric snorkel horses.
(07:21):
I think that is the best nickname that I've heard for a taper is a prehistoric
snorkel horse.
I can't top that.
That's it.
You can't.
It's too good.
Anyone listening does not know what we're talking about.
Pause it.
Look up taper.
They are.
They're adorable.
They're awesome.
But let's get back to it.
You went to Brazil and you did something with tapers.
(07:42):
Let's see.
Yeah.
I got invited down to do some research with Patty Medici.
She is the best taper person to know on planet Earth.
She's a wealth of knowledge.
She does so much in terms of outreach and education for other taper loving
conservationists and researchers.
(08:03):
I got a chance to go down there in 2015.
We went out to a private cattle ranch, actually, Baia das Pedras, out in the
Pantanal.
That's a region in South America.
Most of it in Brazil is actually owned by private cattle ranchers.
(08:24):
Coming from where I come from, where we come from, that doesn't necessarily
sound like a good place to do conservation work.
But the way that they do it down there very much is in line with keeping
biodiversity intact, not taxing the land too much, spreading a few cows out
over a large amount of space.
It ends up being just a great partnership between the researcher and the
(08:50):
property owner.
So we get down there and we're going to do some taper research.
And the hardest part, Mike, you got to catch them first, right?
How do you catch a taper?
I've been up close to tapers, trained ones that are trained to stand up close,
but they are dense beasts.
Yeah, they are bowling balls of animals.
(09:12):
And so there's a couple of different ways that you can do it.
The most effective and easiest way, it involves a little construction, but you
build basically a trap.
They're called armadillos in Portuguese.
And when you're down there, you build these kind of big crates.
If you've moved rhinos, I'm sure you've seen those big crate type things.
(09:33):
But this is just made out of wood.
But in there for the bait is actually salt, salt lake, because the minerals are
actually a little bit more hard to find out in their environment.
So it attracts them a little bit easier than it would for like fruit or things
like that.
But you can really only do that kind of passively.
So you set a bunch of these traps out there.
(09:55):
If you catch one, great.
But if not, then you have to kind of go hunting for them.
And so the story that I want to talk about is actually when we were doing it
like a night stock hunt.
And this involves the whole team.
And we were out there and it was pitch black already.
This was around 830 or 9 o'clock.
(10:17):
It was already just kind of dark.
And we got out there and we're trying to find this taper.
And we have a site set up for a tree stand.
So one of our teammates was up there, Hanata.
And she was the veterinarian.
She was trained with a dart gun.
Probably the coolest piece of equipment that you can have out there doing field
(10:37):
work is this kind of dart gun.
You've seen one up close, right, Mike?
Oh, yeah.
A couple times.
Have you shot one?
I've not been able to handle the dart gun.
They get one good look at me like, no, we should give this guy a dart gun.
No, he's not trained up enough.
(10:59):
Me either.
But Hanata is.
And she is a marksman.
And so she was up there in this tree stand.
And the rest of the team and I were out a little bit further away.
We're hanging out in the truck and trying to be as quiet as we can.
She's up there above the salt lake in her tree stand, camouflage gear all in
there.
(11:19):
And we're just listening on the radio for a couple hours.
She's up there.
And we're just stone silent in the truck just listening to this radio, trying
to hear any little transmission.
Because the second that she darts it, we need to get there as soon as humanly
possible.
Because this taper is just free to run around.
We don't want to lose it.
(11:39):
So we finally hear that crackle come over the radio.
It's Hanata.
We didn't even hear what she said.
We just knew it was time to go.
We just booked it as fast as we could back to the site.
And she kind of pointed which direction the taper was going.
But she really didn't need to because, like, we could hear it, like, thundering
away.
Tapers running, especially in this environment, like, we can hear it.
(12:04):
And they were just thundering hooves going out in that direction.
I'm not, like, the most athletic guy, Mike.
But, like, I was running what I felt.
I was flying.
I was, like, I was passing people and, like, getting all the way up to the
front.
Like, I caught up to the taper.
The drug starts to take effect pretty quickly.
And then.
Your inner Barry Sanders.
Oh, yeah.
(12:24):
I mean, I was stiff arming, juking.
Yeah, shades of 1991.
Just, like, just running.
And so, like, we finally caught up to the taper.
And at this point, it becomes an immobilization in the field.
So, something that I've done quite a lot as a zookeeper is sit in with
different immobilizations.
(12:45):
But out in the field, it's just kind of a different.
It feels different.
You're kind of a little bit more of a hurry.
You're trying to collect data.
So, like, as soon as the taper went down, we started starting right away.
So, we're doing blood collection.
We're doing measurements and all the different data points that they're up to.
And the coolest thing that we got to do, in my opinion, was put on the radio
(13:07):
collar, which is actually made out of this material right here.
This is actually part of the part of it that they cut off from that exact
taper.
It's marked right over here.
Oh, wow.
July 2nd, 2015.
And so, this is like that hard leather.
It's really.
It's made to kind of go through pretty rough terrain.
(13:30):
And so, they fit it to that specific animal.
This happened to be a young male and was new to the study site.
So, they were very excited to get this specific individual.
That means they're going to get a whole bunch of new data points, especially
with that collar that they're going to put on.
It takes GPS tracking and that sort of thing.
So, there's going to be a bunch of information coming through with that
(13:52):
individual.
And within an hour, they were just done with everything and they're fully
reversed.
And off he goes into the world.
And they extra honored me by, since it was a new taper to the site, they
actually named it Moochie, which is part of my last name, which is where I had
printed on my water bottle.
So, when they first met me, they met me as Moochie.
(14:14):
And so, they named the taper after me.
And from what I understand, he's been doing pretty good.
That's a great honor.
I don't think I have any wild animals named after me yet.
Yeah.
I mean, there's so many more out there.
Come on, Julian.
Get on it.
Come on.
That's great.
So, when you sedate the animal, there's reasons why you want to move quickly
(14:39):
and do the work you have to do.
First of all, what, besides the collaring, were there any other tasks you had
in charge of doing with this animal when it was under?
And what are the risks with the taper being under anesthesia?
Yeah.
So, anytime you're doing an immobilization like this, the main thing you're
trying to get done is not injure the animal.
(15:01):
And so, one of the first things that we start doing is we start putting IV
fluid in.
And we're monitoring heart rate, monitoring respiratory rate, monitoring blood
oxygen level.
So, all of that stuff is going on.
There's things beeping and clicking and doing all sorts of things around you.
My task that I was doing was trying to give that IV fluid.
(15:24):
And we're also, at that point, handing different implements to people.
It's much more of a team effort.
Everybody kind of has their role.
But you're always there to try to help out whoever you're around next to and
that sort of thing.
They were also collecting ticks for a study to try to do disease vector work
and try to figure out some possible connections between tapers, their
(15:48):
distribution habits, and that sort of thing.
So, it was really interesting to just kind of be all of those things happening.
During those things, you're collecting blood.
It has to go in different vials with different caps.
And so, keeping track of everything, labeling everything.
It's a symphony of activities.
(16:08):
And it's always to try to make sure that you first don't do any harm to the
animal.
And so, that's just the best part about doing that kind of field work and being
involved with those kind of procedures.
Yeah, I can relate.
I've done this before with giraffes.
And it's the same.
It's a lot of prep work before.
(16:30):
So, everyone knows what their job is.
Everyone's on the same page.
You want it to be moved fluidly and smoothly and not have any complications and
not miss anything while the animal's taking a little nap.
Yeah.
You're also monitoring every subtle change.
So, maybe it's starting to come up a little bit.
A little movement.
Hey, just let everybody know.
(16:52):
Felt some movement in the feet.
Just letting you know.
So, don't be shy about saying something if you notice something.
So, luckily, the procedure went really, really well.
And once he was reversed, he just moseyed right on out.
Fantastic.
This is the only one animal you did?
Or did you get to work on other animals?
(17:14):
Yeah, this was the only animal that we got a chance to do this way.
There were a couple tapers that we had caught in the box traps.
But they were, like, repeat customers.
And so, they didn't have to do an immobilization for any of those.
So, it was really just that one.
Excellent.
What is the ultimate goal with these tapers and the radio collars?
What are they tracking?
(17:35):
So, that specific site, Patty has been working there for, oh, my goodness, over
20 years.
And so, this is long-term study of spatial distribution because of how intact
that habitat is.
So, there's not really other places that she can do that kind of research.
And the fact that she's been there for that long means that the data points
(17:58):
that she's getting now are just accruing into that huge database.
So, it's so much more impactful of an understanding of how those distributions
are occurring because of such a long time.
And so many tapers have been monitored there.
So, technology has changed.
And so, those radio collars have changed a lot over time as well.
(18:21):
And the amount of information that they're able to get now compared to, what,
20 years ago, it's just an astronomical amount of information.
And it's super important because that's, like, the baseline.
That's the most natural setting.
So, that's where you kind of want to model those possible distributions in
other areas after.
(18:41):
Yeah, it's interesting.
The radio collars and the GPS tags, they vary from species to species.
Their anatomies are so different.
I noticed, you know, with giraffes, there used to be these huge, like,
harnesses that wrap around the giraffe's whole body.
And now, they're just this little, you know, tag that goes in the ear.
Can you tell us how they've kind of adapted over the years with tapers?
(19:05):
How they've changed and what are they using now?
Yeah.
So, it's a collar system.
So, it does go around their neck.
And the bigger side of it just kind of goes right underneath their chin.
The one major thing that you have to remember with tapers is that they're semi
-aquatic.
So, they're going to be jumping in water almost all the time.
(19:28):
So, it has to be waterproof first.
And then, it also has to be very durable.
They're running through very dense underbrush.
And so, it can't be loose on their neck, but it can't be too tight either.
So, that fit is actually really important.
And you also have to take into account the age of the animal that you're
(19:50):
putting the collar on.
And if it's a younger animal, it's going to grow.
And so, you have to have either what she has sometimes is an expanding collar,
so that it can actually grow with the individual, or just have like a timed
release, which they have as well, so that it's not on for too long.
So, that it'll just release and then they go pick it up in the field.
(20:10):
It'll have a signal and you can go grab it.
So, once again, kind of that first main thing is just, you know, you don't want
to be harming the animal that you're studying.
You want it to be as normal and natural behaving as possible.
That's right.
We're like doctors.
Number one rule, do no harm.
Yes.
So, with tapirs, tell us what are their conservation status at the moment and
(20:34):
what are their threats to their species?
Yeah, they're either, you know, declining or endangered in most of their
habitat range.
The Brazilian tapir, the lowland tapir, the kind that we were studying, has the
most of the different tapir species.
But, I mean, its population is definitely on the decline and kind of the, you
(20:54):
know, standard protocol for why anything is going endangered.
Habitat loss, fragmentation, illegal hunting, but also road kill, getting hit
by vehicles, especially in some of the areas that we were studying, which where
we went after the Pantanal region was the Sahada, which is where a lot of
(21:15):
larger agricultural crop, monoculture crops are at, and also a lot of larger
highways.
And so we also then started doing studies on road collisions in that area as
well.
So, going back to the collar, one of the things that we'd added for that site
was actually glow-in-the-dark tape for the collars, because we didn't want the
(21:38):
studied animals to get hit by cars, even though that's what we're studying.
We don't want them to get hit by cars.
And so adding that reflective strip onto what this was already was something
that we did when we were out there.
We just went by like a truck stop and wandered in and just grabbed those, the
(21:59):
same ones that you would put on like a bus or something.
We just cut them up and put them on the radio collars instead.
The most advanced technology available, truck stop tape.
Oh yeah.
You have to be resourceful out there in the field.
Sometimes it's that simple.
That's all you need.
Yes.
Keep it simple.
That's great.
Well, any plans to go out there and do some more work?
(22:22):
Oh, I would absolutely love to.
I would absolutely love to.
Actually, I think I do still talk to Patty every once in a while, and she
referenced the fact that it's been too long, so I might have to just get down
there.
I'd love to go for the bird watching too.
It's really good.
Yeah, I understand.
Going out and doing my giraffe conservation, I want to be out there all the
(22:43):
time and go every year.
But these things have an expense to them that as zookeepers, we can't always
afford.
Yes, absolutely.
I definitely plan on going, and I just want to shout out the shirt real quick.
Anta e elogio.
That means taper is a compliment.
That's one of the campaigns that they've been working on.
It's kind of like changing the sort of narrative on what it means to be a
(23:09):
taper.
It's kind of a derogatory term in Portuguese, and so they're trying to just
kind of own it a little bit more and say that it's a compliment because tapers
are really cool animals.
So if someone calls you a taper, they're calling you a pretty cool person.
Hey, John, you're a taper.
You know what, Mike?
You're a taper too.
I tried.
Oh, well, I'll take it.
(23:31):
This might be my clip for the podcast.
Excellent.
All right.
Well, thanks for coming on and telling that story.
That's pretty fun.
I really enjoyed it.
Yeah, my pleasure.
I will talk about tapers to anybody for any length of time.
And yeah, as a side note, he'll talk about the Detroit Lions for any amount of
(23:52):
time too.
So let's do this here.
Super Bowl, back to back, this year and next.
Calling it right now.
Let's go.
Shooting out next year already, huh?
Confident.
That's a lot of confidence, man.
You really are a taper.
Thank you.
All right, man.
All right.
Sounds good.
Take care, John.
All right.
Bye, Mike.
(24:13):
See?
That easy.
That was so, so good.
That was so great.
Yeah.
Hey, thanks so much to John for joining the podcast.
Hope you all enjoyed that.
If you did, I encourage you to look up tapers, learn more about them, check out
the Lowland Taper Conservation Initiative, and tell your friends, hey, do you
(24:37):
know about this cool animal?
And hey, don't forget, if you want to interact with us, you can do that on
Instagram.
We're at wildtailspod, that's tails, T-A-I-L-S.
You can email wildtailspod at gmail.com.
And you can also interact on our new Blue Sky account, just at wildtails,
(24:58):
again, T-A-I-L-S.
We are no longer on that other site that's a competitor to Blue Sky.
Not even going to mention their name because I'm not even sure what it is
anymore.
But please let me know what you think of the show, what you want to see in the
future.
Do you have a story to tell?
I'd love to hear it.
So you can email me, send me a message through social media.
(25:19):
I would love to hear from you.
Until next time, my friends, stay wild.
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