December 12, 2024 • 35 mins
In this exciting episode of Wild Tails, host Mike Bona welcomes Bob Cisneros, a wildlife expert with decades of experience in animal care and conservation. Bob’s impressive career includes time as an animal keeper in San Diego, director of Utah’s Hogle Zoo, and USA board member for Action for Cheetahs in Kenya.
Bob shares an extraordinary story about hand-raising a pangolin at the San Diego Zoo—a rare and complex task that highlights the challenges of caring for one of the world’s most endangered and unique animals. Pangolins, often targeted by poachers for their scales, are notoriously difficult to care for in captivity, making Bob’s success all the more remarkable.
Listen as Bob dives into the process of nurturing this elusive mammal and explains why pangolins play such a critical role in global conservation efforts. This is a must-listen for anyone passionate about wildlife, conservation, zookeeping or the incredible work being done to save species on the brink of extinction.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello and welcome to this week's episode of Wild Tales.
(00:21):
I'm your host Mike Bona and I'm excited to share my conversation with Bob Sisneros,
a true legend in the world of wildlife care and conservation.
Bob has had an incredible background from working as an animal keeper at the world-famous
San Diego Zoo to serving as the director of the Utah Hogo Zoo and now as a USA board
member for Action for Chida in Kenya.
(00:42):
In this episode, Bob shares a fascinating story about his time at the San Diego Zoo,
where he successfully hand-raised one of the most elusive and endangered animals in the
world.
Can you guess what it is?
You'll soon find out.
We had a wonderful yet lengthy conversation and unfortunately I could not fit everything
in this podcast.
If you would like to hear the full unedited version, feel free to send me an email at
(01:05):
wildtalespod at gmail.com.
I'd be happy to share with you the unedited version.
Our conversation started well before what you'll hear at the beginning of this episode.
But I did decide to start here because Bob was talking about why he enjoyed the Wild Tales
podcast so much and I couldn't leave that part out.
Now let's dive into Bob's incredible story.
(01:33):
And this is the part that I love about your emphasis is that storytelling is really important,
especially in our field because of the generation differences that we have between old school
keepers and the new field coming in.
Storytelling is part of the inspiration that also shares not just experiences but also
(01:57):
problem solving methods and helps to inspire younger keepers.
I'm sorry, I really salute you for doing this because it gives keepers a different perspective
than just meeting their day-to-day needs.
Thank you.
I feel the same thing on us, what inspired this podcast.
It's just to invite friends and conservationists and other people from all over to come and
(02:23):
tell their animal-based stories.
I know you have so many in your career as a keeper and a curator and a director and all
your animal experience that I look forward to hearing what you have to say today.
Well, I probably dwell on some of the things you are familiar with but the great part about
a podcast is it's extemporaneous.
So anything could come up.
(02:46):
I do want to share something with you though as I was listening to the draft conservation
foundation podcast and the question came out how smart is a draft.
And years ago in the early 90s, I had the privilege of being late lock up for night
zoo.
(03:07):
I had guests out on the grounds.
It was not common to do that back in the 90s.
So San Diego was just starting to open up the zoo for guests at night.
And my job throughout the evening was to check in all the animals, bring the animals in at
night.
And I had a bit of time after bringing the drafts in so I thought I don't go out and
(03:29):
rake his yard for him.
So when the keeper comes in, his yard will be raked and there will be a wheelbarrow full
of cow dung or rather draft dung on right outside the gate.
So he would call me the next day and say let's go to anybody else but just spend an hour
(03:50):
working together and I'll teach you everything.
He said, you know, people think drafts are dumb.
But I will tell you, drafts are as smart as they need to be.
And that makes all the difference in the world.
And I started thinking about it.
And I thought, yeah, you know, that makes sense.
It's like they've trained to be drafts all their lives.
And if you took a swimmer, an Olympic swimmer and threw them on an Olympic wrestling mat,
(04:17):
they've trained to be swimmers all their lives, but they're just going to be a fish out of
water, no pun intended on the wrestling mat because different skill sets are required
and are acquired during that training process.
So it gave me a unique perspective about working with the animals, whichever ones I
worked with, that they are as smart as they need to be.
(04:39):
And then you just have to figure out what nature requires, you know, what aspect of
knowledge in order to be successful.
Great point.
Yeah.
Like Julian said in that podcast, they've been around for millions more years than humans
have.
So they are doing something right and you're right.
They're just as smart as draft needs to be to survive this long.
(05:02):
So you have some exciting stories to share with us today or Aisnaly.
No, you know, I think I'll go back to the story that you're familiar with, which is
Baba the Pangolin back in 2007.
San Diego received some Pangolins and one of the greatest challenges was they had been
(05:28):
imported from Africa.
These are tree pangolins.
They've been imported from Africa, but they even though San Diego had required them to
be transitioned on a zoo based diet, it actually didn't happen.
And so they had one Pangolin in particular that in order to keep him stable, he had to
(05:57):
be completely too fed every day, two times, three times a day.
And they had tried the hospital crew had tried everything to try and acclimate this guy to
to eating a do based diet, which is an insectivore diet in sort of a slurry.
And in the wild pangolins, the termites and ants, and they tried live insects.
(06:22):
They tried everything and made just couldn't do it.
And so every day, the sky was getting too fed two, three times a day.
They tried tough love, meaning the cut back in his food thought maybe if he was hungry
enough, he would go for the bowl of a grill that was sitting in the exhibit and nothing
seemed to work.
(06:43):
And it was getting to a point where they felt that the invasive measures to maintain his
life were in conflict with quality of life.
And so I've been a hospital keeper for nine years and tube feeding was one of the things
that we did periodically when it was necessary.
(07:06):
And so I came up from children's zoo.
So I transferred from the hospital to become a lead keeper at the children's zoo.
And they had asked us to keep the tube hangolins down there.
We had a female baca and a male baba.
And Baba was the one that had the eating difficulties.
And so they asked us to bring, to take them down, we got a nice temperature and humidity
(07:31):
controlled room set up.
And I came up to the hospital for about, for a minimum of three training sessions on
doing the tube feeding.
And I thought, you know what, I'm just going to go up every day and do this for a minimum
of 10 times just so that I make sure that I get this right.
(07:54):
One of the things that I noticed when we were doing the tube feeding was that he never really,
he never fought.
And maybe this was his response after a period of time of just accepting this.
But he suckled.
And I thought, well, this is kind of interesting.
So when he came down to the hospital, when he came down from the hospital, they'd asked
(08:18):
us to reduce his food.
And this is going to sound a little harsh, but it was the reality of the situation.
We were trying to do everything that we could to determine at what point we would be able
to transition this guy.
So he went from 2,000 grams to 1,500 grams.
(08:39):
So lost a significant amount of weight.
And I thought, well, maybe we need to change our plan a little bit.
And so I got a curved syringe instead of a tube.
And I thought a curved tip syringe, maybe I can just put in the sight of his mouth and
just kind of gently squeeze and see what he does.
And that didn't seem to work.
I went to the nursery keepers who, like your nursery keepers at LA, have an amazing background
(09:04):
in caring for neonates and of all different species.
And so I asked, I need a nipple that is about the length and width of my finger.
And they cold out a marsupial nipple.
We got that.
We set it up, put it in his mouth.
And he started suckling.
(09:26):
And so I was able to gently squeeze it.
So now I wasn't, I wasn't tube feeding him.
I was assisted feeding.
So I thought, well, I'm going to have to make sure that I get approval.
So I went to the vet's the next day and because I've been a hospital keeper for many years,
they're at a really good relationship.
So I went to the vet and I said, I have this friend who has this pangolin.
(09:53):
And then start.
And so I started the story that way.
And I said, I explained where I was.
And I said, considering that I don't have a, I want to change the diet somewhat, can
I, you know, can I add some ensure to this just to beef up the calories?
And so we talked about it for a bit.
And so I went back, I changed the recipe.
(10:15):
And then from there, I figured out a way to approximate going from a nipple tip syringe
to, to, to finally getting him it to eat out of a bowl.
And it took place in about three weeks from, from being too fed to complete independence.
(10:36):
And it all came down to taking that syringe, putting in inside a silicone funnel.
So the tip was sticking through the, the inside of the funnel, getting him used to that,
smearing it around the inside of the funnel.
And then from there, putting that funnel into a bowl, getting him used to coming in to eat
(10:58):
out of the funnel, going into the bowl.
And then finally, when his weight was back up to 2000 grams, getting him to eat independently
out of that bowl, I maintained a very, very small amount of vanilla and sure in his mix.
Even though he didn't need it anymore.
And what I found was, although the female did meet till later afternoon, he still be lined
(11:22):
for his food because it smelled exactly the way his food is always smelled.
And sorry, I was able to maintain two pangolins in the same enclosure and feed them at the
same time and never have to worry about Bob going over to his eating his dish, then going
over to hers and eating hers.
And so he ended up living another seven years or so after that, became an ambassador and
(11:49):
I remember going to an AZA conference and running into one of the nutritionists there
who had just found out what we had accomplished.
And he said, you realize that we now have removed the moratorium on importing pangolins
because of your success.
And so today, Brookfield is a great example of a very successful organization that has
(12:18):
had great success with not only caring and exhibiting pangolins but also breeding.
And that's huge because as you know, the pangling crisis for poaching and smuggling is pretty
dire.
For some reason, there's still belief that those scales have some kind of medicinal
(12:40):
purposes.
Yeah, there are those traffic good mantle on the planet.
If we use back tractors to second for anyone listening that may not know what a pangolin
is, how would you describe a pangolin to someone that's never seen one?
The common name is the Scaly Antmeter.
It's got a prehensile tail.
It's bitching because at the tip of the tail, it looks like a fingertip.
(13:01):
And so it's nocturnal.
There are eight species, four in Asia, four in Africa.
The one that probably most people are familiar with is the giant pangolin, which is land-based.
But they have this amazing tongue, an incredible sense of smell, and these strong, strong claws
(13:25):
that are able to pull apart rotted trees and turmeric mounds.
So if you think about an antmeter, then you throw a bunch of guitar picks on it, then
you basically have a pangolin and or a tamanu as other way to describe it.
I brought Baba out years ago for a VIP encounter with Peter Frampton, who was a guitarist and
(13:49):
musician during my era.
And he looked at me and he said, what are those?
And I said, well, it's Carradon.
And I looked at his wife.
It's like having a thousand Lee Press on nails, the fake fingernails that they used to sell
in the stories.
And I looked at him and I said, or a thousand medium-gauge guitar picks.
The script I never heard anyone describe that as guitar picks, but yeah, that's kind of what they look like.
(14:14):
And what's really amazing is, you know, watching these guys, we successfully housed a male and a female.
And when we would, we'd come in with warm water spray and hose them down and their little burrow.
And the female would come over and she would groom the male.
(14:38):
And like Venetian blinds, their scales would open up.
And then her tongue would dart back and forth.
And I'm sure that they look for parasites or anything else.
But, you know, just watching these guys, it truly was an unforgettable moment in my career
where I felt really, really connected with an animal.
(15:01):
And then when you bring him out to the public and you talk about all of the different things,
we were able to bring him out to the news.
And because of his adjustment with his diet, we could bring him out on the perch and take his gruel
and just slide it on the perch.
And he would, you know, you could see the tongue work, tongue work going.
And it made for a fantastic story, not just the background story of Baba himself,
(15:26):
but also the connection of introducing people to an animal species.
They have never seen up close and personal.
Yeah, they're amazing.
I'm sure it's very, you know, kind of awe-inspiring.
But especially if they were seeing the penguin probably walked into the zoo to this encounter
and never even heard of a penguin to see the alien-looking creature with all these little
(15:48):
guitar picks down his back.
I'm sure that really is an attention-getter and it's really a special thing that you can share at the zoo.
And it's great when we have these little milestones that allow other people to feel comfortable
at, you know, not feeling like they have to take huge risk.
And, you know, with animal care, it's like we take inherent risks every day when it comes to
(16:13):
working with animals.
There are areas of predictability and then there are areas where we have no predictable
basis.
And so taking that risk out of working with pangolins, you know, enabled Brookfield to really thrive
at what they're doing.
And, you know, and I hope that that's an inspiration for other people to look at a couple of things.
(16:38):
One, you know, our observation skills as zookeepers, those skills are really, really important.
And it's not just focusing on what we need to get done.
It's looking at everything and trying to problem-solve and, you know, having that outside awareness
of what an animal is doing and, you know, being able to solve whatever issues you need to solve.
(17:03):
So I think for me, I felt it was a momentous occasion for me because I felt like
problem-solving 101 had, you know, become fulfilled.
As made a huge difference to this day, all the, for the zoos that have pangolins are learning from
your experience and your care of that particular pangolin.
(17:27):
And, you know, we thought we, we, not the sound morbid about it, but we didn't have a lot of hope
for Baba, which, and he basically was, you know, destined for palliative care at the children's zoo.
We didn't really have an idea that there was going to be such a long-term relationship with him.
(17:50):
And, you know, it's one of the things that I think as zookeepers,
we offer hope to our guests.
We offer hope for, you know, for a better world, for a place where animals and humans can thrive
together with shared resources.
(18:14):
But amongst each other, you know, our co-workers and our peers, we also offer that hope with shared
knowledge. And that was one of the things when I was president of AZK National, that was a really
important part of my focus there was how do we get keepers to not only share knowledge,
(18:37):
but also gain knowledge from a fundamental perspective. And today's conference schedule
is a testament to that focus where it's not a lot of, it used to be you'd go to an AZK conference,
American Association of zookeepers, and there would be 50 papers and maybe four workshops.
(18:58):
And we decided that it was time for us to really validate the amount of learning that could take
place in a conference setting. San Diego was the very first place that we did in 2011,
where we instead of five workshops, we put on 25 workshops. And they were all husbandry-based,
(19:23):
problem-solving, conservation. It was just about every aspect of zookeeping you could think of.
And AZK has continued with that format. They provided some more contemporary twists to it.
But the focus is how do we get, how do we maintain a program where keepers can constantly learn
(19:46):
plus share? Yeah, it's amazing. I've been to a few conferences and there's just keepers from all
over the country, even from outside the country, that attend. There's hundreds of keepers and
there's such niche topics that may only relate to a small handful of attendees. But those are
important topics that can go a long way for those few keepers that can learn from that information
(20:09):
and take that experience home to their zoos that can really benefit the lives and the longevity of
the animals they care for. Yeah, and I think the other thing is just meeting with keepers in person
and finding out that whatever challenges they have at their institution,
their challenges all over. And it's great to hear how other people respond to those challenges.
(20:33):
We've all worked over the years with different types of conditions where we thought,
oh, God, maybe I need to go someplace else. And then you find out this is how it happens across
the board. But here are how other people respond to it. I remember being at a workshop and somebody
(20:54):
was complaining about, you know, every time we want to do a fundraiser at our zoo, the zoo says,
no, and we can't do it. And so I suggested and said, why don't you meet with your development
group and say, we'll lay the foundation for this. We'll work out all the kinks. We'll do this for
two years, and then we'll give it to you. And then you can do it. If it's successful, you can do it.
(21:18):
And, you know, we did that a couple of times at San Diego, and that seemed to be, you know, really
successful, but keepers and the upper echelon, we're all benign collaborators. You know, we
work for a common goal of having one, a successful zoo, that's primary, but to the mission, which is
(21:40):
connecting people to wildlife and helping to save wildlife and wild places. So I think
the collaborative effort of zoo keepers is a very important function in the success of
organizations. And I'm glad to see that more and more organizations are really emphasizing
(22:03):
sending zoo keepers to conferences. You know, a shout out to HOGLE, the professional development
at HOGLE Zoo emphasized sending keepers to AAZK, to ABMA, to a number of different conferences and
workshops, because they recognized that, one, it was great for morale, but two, it allowed two
(22:30):
things. One, for keepers at HOGLE to present, to show people what we do, but also to give them
an opportunity for broad-based learning through interactions with other keepers.
Yeah, I think you meet these keepers. You discover we all have similar problems with our animals and
our zoos, but you sometimes give you an opportunity to look at it from a different perspective to
(22:55):
like solving problems you have on how to care for a certain species.
And you know this as well as I do that a lot of the problems that are faced by young keepers today
are no different than the ones that we encountered back in the 90s and when these guys were still
(23:18):
and diapers. So it's nothing has really changed, although it's just wearing a different color.
And the zoo field is, you know, looking at a lot of different problem-solving techniques for
staff development and morale. But I wanted to share something with you, and I'm not sure if you
(23:39):
ever saw this. This was, this is a great perspective piece. It was written in the 90s and there was an
article in the animal keepers forum, which is the publication for the American Association of
Zoo Keepers. And it was posted in our mammal office at San Diego. That's where I first ran into
(24:00):
it because the publication actually probably came out before I was a member. And it's a little bit
long, but bear with me on this and I'll try and edit as I go along. But it really talks about
dealing with challenges and frustrations. And this is in the 90s. And you take that,
(24:22):
you read it today, and it still rings true. And what this author says is working in a zoo is an
extremely physically demanding job that requires self-discipline, self-motivation, and independent
thinking. It is good, honest, hard work that provides the opportunities for direct, indirect
interactions. The satisfaction in knowing that due to my actions, a difference has been made for
(24:46):
the better in an animal's quality of life allows me to sleep very well at night. Unfortunately,
the reality of any profession is that there are always factors that interfere with the accomplishments
and satisfactions of the day-to-day job. Zoo keeping is no exception. I have seen too many good,
motivated, idealistic, dedicated, and professional keepers become dissatisfied,
(25:11):
unmotivated, and disgruntled due to the inherent politics of different institutions.
Perhaps if everyone took the time in their daily routine to foster the wonder,
then maybe positive attitudes would be more prevalent. I am acutely aware that sometimes it
is difficult to focus on positive, but it is those times I remind myself how lucky I am.
(25:39):
I may not be bringing home a large paycheck, but there are parts of my job that I would gladly do
for free. I am empowered by my chosen profession and am a respected member of the community.
I remembered why I stay in this field for many years and bound never to take any of it for granted
again. And here's the kicker. As professionals, we must accept the things we cannot change,
(26:03):
but work to change the things we can. We must all start within ourselves for our attitude effects
all those around us. Life is too short, and this job is too demanding, not to be proud of what we do.
The challenge is to find a way to focus all the negative energy into a positive and constructive
manner. Take time to foster the wonder. It is the single most important step in keeping the face.
(26:31):
What's amazing about that, you said it was written three years ago, and that could have been written
today and still have the same impact. Absolutely. I've been a member of a
Facebook, Keeper Base, Facebook page for since it first started. I never posted anything on there,
(26:52):
and I just allow them to interact at their levels. But I do feel like this is something I would love
to share with those guys and just say, what we're dealing with is no different today. It's true
when you, every now and then, you encounter some quote about the younger generation being
(27:14):
disrespectful and the younger generation doing this, and then you find out it was written in 1850.
Yeah. So I think the challenges, like I said, may wear different coat, but they're still pretty
much based off the same thing. Yeah, there are challenges, but it's important to take pride in
(27:35):
the work we do, and we do some great work. We got into this field for a reason. We want to make
a difference in the lives the animals you care for, and their counterparts out in the wild to
educate and to participate in conservation. And I'm proud of my colleagues that come in day after
day and still believe in that. Who gets to do this? I mean, that's when I would go to high school
(27:59):
reunions, and I start talking to people about what I do and where everybody looks up everyone.
It really does demonstrate how fortunate we are, even though we have the calluses, the
swordbacks, you know, fairly what I would consider an imbalanced work-life relationship,
(28:25):
we still get to do some pretty amazing things and work with some amazing animals that a lot
of people will never see in their lifetime. And our goal is to provide an opportunity for them to
see it, but also to protect those guys out in the wild. I think the other thing, and I learned
this at Children Zoo because every walking moment was an interaction at the CZ. And I thought, you
(28:54):
know, this is the opportunity to inspire, to get kids really excited, and I'll share a story with
you. My wife, who is also retired, was an attorney for many, many years, and she did construction
defect litigation. And she had an expert witness that she called on many times and they had a
(29:15):
pretty good professional relationship. And we had an old, still do, have an old craftsman in San Diego,
and we needed our foundation looked at. So we called Pete. Pete came to look at the foundation,
gave us some ideas of what we could do. And when we tried to pay him, he said, now, this is on me.
(29:38):
So I thought, talking to my wife, well, let's do something nice for Pete and his family. Let me
get some zoo passes. I'll meet up with them. I'll give them a tour around the zoo, and then throw
in something at the very end. And so I walked Pete and his family around the zoo, talked about all
the animals that I'd worked with and different things about my career. And it in relationship to a
(30:04):
lot of the individual stories of the animals and their counterparts in the wild. And at the very end,
I surprised them with a cheetah encounter at hunt amphitheater and a family picture taken with
this cheetah and a golden retriever. And fast forward years later, as a Zach president, I'd put on a
(30:29):
fundraiser for Laurie Marker, who is the director of the Cheer Conservation Fund at Joan Embry's ranch.
And so as people were coming in, I was at the welcome table. And I pretty much thought I knew
everyone who was coming to this event. And there's Pete. I'm like, Pete, what are you doing here?
(30:54):
And he said, well, funny, you should ask, do you remember that tour that you gave us? I said,
yeah, I remember that. And he said, well, my daughter was in high school. And when she had to write her
entrance essay, her entrance essay was about her tour with you and all of the stories that you had
and all of your encounters and different animals that we saw on all of their unique adaptations.
(31:19):
But that's not the real reason why I'm here. The real reason why is because when you took us down
on amphitheater and we saw that Cheerah, my daughter was so connected with that that she went on to
study conservation biology and then went to Namibia to work with Laurie Marker. And that's why I'm here.
(31:47):
She then went on to get a PhD in conservation biology and emphasizing what she did a lot of
line research in Africa and is now a chief scientist at San Diego's use conservation research institute.
Who knew? Who knew that a moment like that could have an impact on somebody? And that's why I think
(32:09):
that as zookeepers and zoo professionals, everything that we can do to create those magical moments
has some type of seed that can sprout to some magnificant tree.
You never know. And that's the important thing to keep in mind is whenever you have to give,
you know, as a zookeeper, you have to give a talk or a presentation. So even at the end of the day,
(32:35):
if you're tired, if you had a rough day, you got to remember that you might be inspiring the future
generation of conservationists of zookeepers because all of us that are in the animal field
had that person most likely at a young age that inspired us to get into the field that we're in.
So those are the things I think for me that I look back on and I think as a zookeeper,
(32:56):
you know, I had some amazing opportunities. I totally agree. There's keepers all over the
world doing amazing things and it's always amazing we can learn from those experiences.
Thank you, Bob, for coming on. I feel like we could just sit down and chat. I wish I was closer to you.
I'd come over and we could all tell you about zookeeping.
But, uh, well, I'll tell you, um, we have an open house policy. So if you find yourself out in this
(33:20):
area, um, if for any reason, I'm about an hour from Blank Park Zoo. So I find yourself headed
to Blank Park. Just lift me up, come over, spend the night. I will feed you fat.
I appreciate the invite. If I'm ever in Iowa, I will take you up, but you enjoy your nice big
spacious house. I still have the ocean. So I will enjoy that. I'll take what I can get.
(33:43):
I miss the oceans. I miss the mountains. Yeah. But, you know, I was a military brat, so we moved
all over the place and we just adjust to wherever we're living. Anyway, yeah, I'm the same way I
could talk to you forever. And don't be a stranger. You know, just if you have a moment and I'm always
happy to be a thought partner. That's the one thing that I, um, I will say out there is that
(34:07):
anybody have any ideas that they just want to run by me, I'm happy to be a thought partner on it.
I will keep that in my eye. I'll stay in touch and reach out to you from time to time. Thanks, Bob.
Sounds good.
Big thanks to Bob for coming on the podcast. I had a great conversation with him and I look
(34:28):
forward to having him on in the future. In the meantime, for everyone else, this is the last
podcast before Christmas. We are in the midst of the holiday season. If you would like to do
something nice for me, all I ask for is please share this podcast with someone you think might
enjoy it and maybe give it a review. Five stars would be nice. Four I would take. Not, you know,
(34:56):
what? On second thought, let's make it all five stars. I would love to hear from you.
Like and follow on the Instagram and blue sky. All the links are in the show description.
And send me an email if you have any words of encouragement, any nice things you want to say,
any mean things you want to say, any stories you want to tell. Maybe you can be one of my guests
(35:18):
in the future. My email is wildtalespod at gmail.com. That's Tails T-A-I-L-S. Thank you all for listening
and until next time, stay wild, my friends.
Hello and welcome to this week's episode of Wild Tales.
(00:21):
I'm your host Mike Bona and I'm excited to share my conversation with Bob Sisneros,
a true legend in the world of wildlife care and conservation.
Bob has had an incredible background from working as an animal keeper at the world-famous
San Diego Zoo to serving as the director of the Utah Hogo Zoo and now as a USA board
member for Action for Chida in Kenya.
(00:42):
In this episode, Bob shares a fascinating story about his time at the San Diego Zoo,
where he successfully hand-raised one of the most elusive and endangered animals in the
world.
Can you guess what it is?
You'll soon find out.
We had a wonderful yet lengthy conversation and unfortunately I could not fit everything
in this podcast.
If you would like to hear the full unedited version, feel free to send me an email at
(01:05):
wildtalespod at gmail.com.
I'd be happy to share with you the unedited version.
Our conversation started well before what you'll hear at the beginning of this episode.
But I did decide to start here because Bob was talking about why he enjoyed the Wild Tales
podcast so much and I couldn't leave that part out.
Now let's dive into Bob's incredible story.
(01:33):
And this is the part that I love about your emphasis is that storytelling is really important,
especially in our field because of the generation differences that we have between old school
keepers and the new field coming in.
Storytelling is part of the inspiration that also shares not just experiences but also
(01:57):
problem solving methods and helps to inspire younger keepers.
I'm sorry, I really salute you for doing this because it gives keepers a different perspective
than just meeting their day-to-day needs.
Thank you.
I feel the same thing on us, what inspired this podcast.
It's just to invite friends and conservationists and other people from all over to come and
(02:23):
tell their animal-based stories.
I know you have so many in your career as a keeper and a curator and a director and all
your animal experience that I look forward to hearing what you have to say today.
Well, I probably dwell on some of the things you are familiar with but the great part about
a podcast is it's extemporaneous.
So anything could come up.
(02:46):
I do want to share something with you though as I was listening to the draft conservation
foundation podcast and the question came out how smart is a draft.
And years ago in the early 90s, I had the privilege of being late lock up for night
zoo.
(03:07):
I had guests out on the grounds.
It was not common to do that back in the 90s.
So San Diego was just starting to open up the zoo for guests at night.
And my job throughout the evening was to check in all the animals, bring the animals in at
night.
And I had a bit of time after bringing the drafts in so I thought I don't go out and
(03:29):
rake his yard for him.
So when the keeper comes in, his yard will be raked and there will be a wheelbarrow full
of cow dung or rather draft dung on right outside the gate.
So he would call me the next day and say let's go to anybody else but just spend an hour
(03:50):
working together and I'll teach you everything.
He said, you know, people think drafts are dumb.
But I will tell you, drafts are as smart as they need to be.
And that makes all the difference in the world.
And I started thinking about it.
And I thought, yeah, you know, that makes sense.
It's like they've trained to be drafts all their lives.
And if you took a swimmer, an Olympic swimmer and threw them on an Olympic wrestling mat,
(04:17):
they've trained to be swimmers all their lives, but they're just going to be a fish out of
water, no pun intended on the wrestling mat because different skill sets are required
and are acquired during that training process.
So it gave me a unique perspective about working with the animals, whichever ones I
worked with, that they are as smart as they need to be.
(04:39):
And then you just have to figure out what nature requires, you know, what aspect of
knowledge in order to be successful.
Great point.
Yeah.
Like Julian said in that podcast, they've been around for millions more years than humans
have.
So they are doing something right and you're right.
They're just as smart as draft needs to be to survive this long.
(05:02):
So you have some exciting stories to share with us today or Aisnaly.
No, you know, I think I'll go back to the story that you're familiar with, which is
Baba the Pangolin back in 2007.
San Diego received some Pangolins and one of the greatest challenges was they had been
(05:28):
imported from Africa.
These are tree pangolins.
They've been imported from Africa, but they even though San Diego had required them to
be transitioned on a zoo based diet, it actually didn't happen.
And so they had one Pangolin in particular that in order to keep him stable, he had to
(05:57):
be completely too fed every day, two times, three times a day.
And they had tried the hospital crew had tried everything to try and acclimate this guy to
to eating a do based diet, which is an insectivore diet in sort of a slurry.
And in the wild pangolins, the termites and ants, and they tried live insects.
(06:22):
They tried everything and made just couldn't do it.
And so every day, the sky was getting too fed two, three times a day.
They tried tough love, meaning the cut back in his food thought maybe if he was hungry
enough, he would go for the bowl of a grill that was sitting in the exhibit and nothing
seemed to work.
(06:43):
And it was getting to a point where they felt that the invasive measures to maintain his
life were in conflict with quality of life.
And so I've been a hospital keeper for nine years and tube feeding was one of the things
that we did periodically when it was necessary.
(07:06):
And so I came up from children's zoo.
So I transferred from the hospital to become a lead keeper at the children's zoo.
And they had asked us to keep the tube hangolins down there.
We had a female baca and a male baba.
And Baba was the one that had the eating difficulties.
And so they asked us to bring, to take them down, we got a nice temperature and humidity
(07:31):
controlled room set up.
And I came up to the hospital for about, for a minimum of three training sessions on
doing the tube feeding.
And I thought, you know what, I'm just going to go up every day and do this for a minimum
of 10 times just so that I make sure that I get this right.
(07:54):
One of the things that I noticed when we were doing the tube feeding was that he never really,
he never fought.
And maybe this was his response after a period of time of just accepting this.
But he suckled.
And I thought, well, this is kind of interesting.
So when he came down to the hospital, when he came down from the hospital, they'd asked
(08:18):
us to reduce his food.
And this is going to sound a little harsh, but it was the reality of the situation.
We were trying to do everything that we could to determine at what point we would be able
to transition this guy.
So he went from 2,000 grams to 1,500 grams.
(08:39):
So lost a significant amount of weight.
And I thought, well, maybe we need to change our plan a little bit.
And so I got a curved syringe instead of a tube.
And I thought a curved tip syringe, maybe I can just put in the sight of his mouth and
just kind of gently squeeze and see what he does.
And that didn't seem to work.
I went to the nursery keepers who, like your nursery keepers at LA, have an amazing background
(09:04):
in caring for neonates and of all different species.
And so I asked, I need a nipple that is about the length and width of my finger.
And they cold out a marsupial nipple.
We got that.
We set it up, put it in his mouth.
And he started suckling.
(09:26):
And so I was able to gently squeeze it.
So now I wasn't, I wasn't tube feeding him.
I was assisted feeding.
So I thought, well, I'm going to have to make sure that I get approval.
So I went to the vet's the next day and because I've been a hospital keeper for many years,
they're at a really good relationship.
So I went to the vet and I said, I have this friend who has this pangolin.
(09:53):
And then start.
And so I started the story that way.
And I said, I explained where I was.
And I said, considering that I don't have a, I want to change the diet somewhat, can
I, you know, can I add some ensure to this just to beef up the calories?
And so we talked about it for a bit.
And so I went back, I changed the recipe.
(10:15):
And then from there, I figured out a way to approximate going from a nipple tip syringe
to, to, to finally getting him it to eat out of a bowl.
And it took place in about three weeks from, from being too fed to complete independence.
(10:36):
And it all came down to taking that syringe, putting in inside a silicone funnel.
So the tip was sticking through the, the inside of the funnel, getting him used to that,
smearing it around the inside of the funnel.
And then from there, putting that funnel into a bowl, getting him used to coming in to eat
(10:58):
out of the funnel, going into the bowl.
And then finally, when his weight was back up to 2000 grams, getting him to eat independently
out of that bowl, I maintained a very, very small amount of vanilla and sure in his mix.
Even though he didn't need it anymore.
And what I found was, although the female did meet till later afternoon, he still be lined
(11:22):
for his food because it smelled exactly the way his food is always smelled.
And sorry, I was able to maintain two pangolins in the same enclosure and feed them at the
same time and never have to worry about Bob going over to his eating his dish, then going
over to hers and eating hers.
And so he ended up living another seven years or so after that, became an ambassador and
(11:49):
I remember going to an AZA conference and running into one of the nutritionists there
who had just found out what we had accomplished.
And he said, you realize that we now have removed the moratorium on importing pangolins
because of your success.
And so today, Brookfield is a great example of a very successful organization that has
(12:18):
had great success with not only caring and exhibiting pangolins but also breeding.
And that's huge because as you know, the pangling crisis for poaching and smuggling is pretty
dire.
For some reason, there's still belief that those scales have some kind of medicinal
(12:40):
purposes.
Yeah, there are those traffic good mantle on the planet.
If we use back tractors to second for anyone listening that may not know what a pangolin
is, how would you describe a pangolin to someone that's never seen one?
The common name is the Scaly Antmeter.
It's got a prehensile tail.
It's bitching because at the tip of the tail, it looks like a fingertip.
(13:01):
And so it's nocturnal.
There are eight species, four in Asia, four in Africa.
The one that probably most people are familiar with is the giant pangolin, which is land-based.
But they have this amazing tongue, an incredible sense of smell, and these strong, strong claws
(13:25):
that are able to pull apart rotted trees and turmeric mounds.
So if you think about an antmeter, then you throw a bunch of guitar picks on it, then
you basically have a pangolin and or a tamanu as other way to describe it.
I brought Baba out years ago for a VIP encounter with Peter Frampton, who was a guitarist and
(13:49):
musician during my era.
And he looked at me and he said, what are those?
And I said, well, it's Carradon.
And I looked at his wife.
It's like having a thousand Lee Press on nails, the fake fingernails that they used to sell
in the stories.
And I looked at him and I said, or a thousand medium-gauge guitar picks.
The script I never heard anyone describe that as guitar picks, but yeah, that's kind of what they look like.
(14:14):
And what's really amazing is, you know, watching these guys, we successfully housed a male and a female.
And when we would, we'd come in with warm water spray and hose them down and their little burrow.
And the female would come over and she would groom the male.
(14:38):
And like Venetian blinds, their scales would open up.
And then her tongue would dart back and forth.
And I'm sure that they look for parasites or anything else.
But, you know, just watching these guys, it truly was an unforgettable moment in my career
where I felt really, really connected with an animal.
(15:01):
And then when you bring him out to the public and you talk about all of the different things,
we were able to bring him out to the news.
And because of his adjustment with his diet, we could bring him out on the perch and take his gruel
and just slide it on the perch.
And he would, you know, you could see the tongue work, tongue work going.
And it made for a fantastic story, not just the background story of Baba himself,
(15:26):
but also the connection of introducing people to an animal species.
They have never seen up close and personal.
Yeah, they're amazing.
I'm sure it's very, you know, kind of awe-inspiring.
But especially if they were seeing the penguin probably walked into the zoo to this encounter
and never even heard of a penguin to see the alien-looking creature with all these little
(15:48):
guitar picks down his back.
I'm sure that really is an attention-getter and it's really a special thing that you can share at the zoo.
And it's great when we have these little milestones that allow other people to feel comfortable
at, you know, not feeling like they have to take huge risk.
And, you know, with animal care, it's like we take inherent risks every day when it comes to
(16:13):
working with animals.
There are areas of predictability and then there are areas where we have no predictable
basis.
And so taking that risk out of working with pangolins, you know, enabled Brookfield to really thrive
at what they're doing.
And, you know, and I hope that that's an inspiration for other people to look at a couple of things.
(16:38):
One, you know, our observation skills as zookeepers, those skills are really, really important.
And it's not just focusing on what we need to get done.
It's looking at everything and trying to problem-solve and, you know, having that outside awareness
of what an animal is doing and, you know, being able to solve whatever issues you need to solve.
(17:03):
So I think for me, I felt it was a momentous occasion for me because I felt like
problem-solving 101 had, you know, become fulfilled.
As made a huge difference to this day, all the, for the zoos that have pangolins are learning from
your experience and your care of that particular pangolin.
(17:27):
And, you know, we thought we, we, not the sound morbid about it, but we didn't have a lot of hope
for Baba, which, and he basically was, you know, destined for palliative care at the children's zoo.
We didn't really have an idea that there was going to be such a long-term relationship with him.
(17:50):
And, you know, it's one of the things that I think as zookeepers,
we offer hope to our guests.
We offer hope for, you know, for a better world, for a place where animals and humans can thrive
together with shared resources.
(18:14):
But amongst each other, you know, our co-workers and our peers, we also offer that hope with shared
knowledge. And that was one of the things when I was president of AZK National, that was a really
important part of my focus there was how do we get keepers to not only share knowledge,
(18:37):
but also gain knowledge from a fundamental perspective. And today's conference schedule
is a testament to that focus where it's not a lot of, it used to be you'd go to an AZK conference,
American Association of zookeepers, and there would be 50 papers and maybe four workshops.
(18:58):
And we decided that it was time for us to really validate the amount of learning that could take
place in a conference setting. San Diego was the very first place that we did in 2011,
where we instead of five workshops, we put on 25 workshops. And they were all husbandry-based,
(19:23):
problem-solving, conservation. It was just about every aspect of zookeeping you could think of.
And AZK has continued with that format. They provided some more contemporary twists to it.
But the focus is how do we get, how do we maintain a program where keepers can constantly learn
(19:46):
plus share? Yeah, it's amazing. I've been to a few conferences and there's just keepers from all
over the country, even from outside the country, that attend. There's hundreds of keepers and
there's such niche topics that may only relate to a small handful of attendees. But those are
important topics that can go a long way for those few keepers that can learn from that information
(20:09):
and take that experience home to their zoos that can really benefit the lives and the longevity of
the animals they care for. Yeah, and I think the other thing is just meeting with keepers in person
and finding out that whatever challenges they have at their institution,
their challenges all over. And it's great to hear how other people respond to those challenges.
(20:33):
We've all worked over the years with different types of conditions where we thought,
oh, God, maybe I need to go someplace else. And then you find out this is how it happens across
the board. But here are how other people respond to it. I remember being at a workshop and somebody
(20:54):
was complaining about, you know, every time we want to do a fundraiser at our zoo, the zoo says,
no, and we can't do it. And so I suggested and said, why don't you meet with your development
group and say, we'll lay the foundation for this. We'll work out all the kinks. We'll do this for
two years, and then we'll give it to you. And then you can do it. If it's successful, you can do it.
(21:18):
And, you know, we did that a couple of times at San Diego, and that seemed to be, you know, really
successful, but keepers and the upper echelon, we're all benign collaborators. You know, we
work for a common goal of having one, a successful zoo, that's primary, but to the mission, which is
(21:40):
connecting people to wildlife and helping to save wildlife and wild places. So I think
the collaborative effort of zoo keepers is a very important function in the success of
organizations. And I'm glad to see that more and more organizations are really emphasizing
(22:03):
sending zoo keepers to conferences. You know, a shout out to HOGLE, the professional development
at HOGLE Zoo emphasized sending keepers to AAZK, to ABMA, to a number of different conferences and
workshops, because they recognized that, one, it was great for morale, but two, it allowed two
(22:30):
things. One, for keepers at HOGLE to present, to show people what we do, but also to give them
an opportunity for broad-based learning through interactions with other keepers.
Yeah, I think you meet these keepers. You discover we all have similar problems with our animals and
our zoos, but you sometimes give you an opportunity to look at it from a different perspective to
(22:55):
like solving problems you have on how to care for a certain species.
And you know this as well as I do that a lot of the problems that are faced by young keepers today
are no different than the ones that we encountered back in the 90s and when these guys were still
(23:18):
and diapers. So it's nothing has really changed, although it's just wearing a different color.
And the zoo field is, you know, looking at a lot of different problem-solving techniques for
staff development and morale. But I wanted to share something with you, and I'm not sure if you
(23:39):
ever saw this. This was, this is a great perspective piece. It was written in the 90s and there was an
article in the animal keepers forum, which is the publication for the American Association of
Zoo Keepers. And it was posted in our mammal office at San Diego. That's where I first ran into
(24:00):
it because the publication actually probably came out before I was a member. And it's a little bit
long, but bear with me on this and I'll try and edit as I go along. But it really talks about
dealing with challenges and frustrations. And this is in the 90s. And you take that,
(24:22):
you read it today, and it still rings true. And what this author says is working in a zoo is an
extremely physically demanding job that requires self-discipline, self-motivation, and independent
thinking. It is good, honest, hard work that provides the opportunities for direct, indirect
interactions. The satisfaction in knowing that due to my actions, a difference has been made for
(24:46):
the better in an animal's quality of life allows me to sleep very well at night. Unfortunately,
the reality of any profession is that there are always factors that interfere with the accomplishments
and satisfactions of the day-to-day job. Zoo keeping is no exception. I have seen too many good,
motivated, idealistic, dedicated, and professional keepers become dissatisfied,
(25:11):
unmotivated, and disgruntled due to the inherent politics of different institutions.
Perhaps if everyone took the time in their daily routine to foster the wonder,
then maybe positive attitudes would be more prevalent. I am acutely aware that sometimes it
is difficult to focus on positive, but it is those times I remind myself how lucky I am.
(25:39):
I may not be bringing home a large paycheck, but there are parts of my job that I would gladly do
for free. I am empowered by my chosen profession and am a respected member of the community.
I remembered why I stay in this field for many years and bound never to take any of it for granted
again. And here's the kicker. As professionals, we must accept the things we cannot change,
(26:03):
but work to change the things we can. We must all start within ourselves for our attitude effects
all those around us. Life is too short, and this job is too demanding, not to be proud of what we do.
The challenge is to find a way to focus all the negative energy into a positive and constructive
manner. Take time to foster the wonder. It is the single most important step in keeping the face.
(26:31):
What's amazing about that, you said it was written three years ago, and that could have been written
today and still have the same impact. Absolutely. I've been a member of a
Facebook, Keeper Base, Facebook page for since it first started. I never posted anything on there,
(26:52):
and I just allow them to interact at their levels. But I do feel like this is something I would love
to share with those guys and just say, what we're dealing with is no different today. It's true
when you, every now and then, you encounter some quote about the younger generation being
(27:14):
disrespectful and the younger generation doing this, and then you find out it was written in 1850.
Yeah. So I think the challenges, like I said, may wear different coat, but they're still pretty
much based off the same thing. Yeah, there are challenges, but it's important to take pride in
(27:35):
the work we do, and we do some great work. We got into this field for a reason. We want to make
a difference in the lives the animals you care for, and their counterparts out in the wild to
educate and to participate in conservation. And I'm proud of my colleagues that come in day after
day and still believe in that. Who gets to do this? I mean, that's when I would go to high school
(27:59):
reunions, and I start talking to people about what I do and where everybody looks up everyone.
It really does demonstrate how fortunate we are, even though we have the calluses, the
swordbacks, you know, fairly what I would consider an imbalanced work-life relationship,
(28:25):
we still get to do some pretty amazing things and work with some amazing animals that a lot
of people will never see in their lifetime. And our goal is to provide an opportunity for them to
see it, but also to protect those guys out in the wild. I think the other thing, and I learned
this at Children Zoo because every walking moment was an interaction at the CZ. And I thought, you
(28:54):
know, this is the opportunity to inspire, to get kids really excited, and I'll share a story with
you. My wife, who is also retired, was an attorney for many, many years, and she did construction
defect litigation. And she had an expert witness that she called on many times and they had a
(29:15):
pretty good professional relationship. And we had an old, still do, have an old craftsman in San Diego,
and we needed our foundation looked at. So we called Pete. Pete came to look at the foundation,
gave us some ideas of what we could do. And when we tried to pay him, he said, now, this is on me.
(29:38):
So I thought, talking to my wife, well, let's do something nice for Pete and his family. Let me
get some zoo passes. I'll meet up with them. I'll give them a tour around the zoo, and then throw
in something at the very end. And so I walked Pete and his family around the zoo, talked about all
the animals that I'd worked with and different things about my career. And it in relationship to a
(30:04):
lot of the individual stories of the animals and their counterparts in the wild. And at the very end,
I surprised them with a cheetah encounter at hunt amphitheater and a family picture taken with
this cheetah and a golden retriever. And fast forward years later, as a Zach president, I'd put on a
(30:29):
fundraiser for Laurie Marker, who is the director of the Cheer Conservation Fund at Joan Embry's ranch.
And so as people were coming in, I was at the welcome table. And I pretty much thought I knew
everyone who was coming to this event. And there's Pete. I'm like, Pete, what are you doing here?
(30:54):
And he said, well, funny, you should ask, do you remember that tour that you gave us? I said,
yeah, I remember that. And he said, well, my daughter was in high school. And when she had to write her
entrance essay, her entrance essay was about her tour with you and all of the stories that you had
and all of your encounters and different animals that we saw on all of their unique adaptations.
(31:19):
But that's not the real reason why I'm here. The real reason why is because when you took us down
on amphitheater and we saw that Cheerah, my daughter was so connected with that that she went on to
study conservation biology and then went to Namibia to work with Laurie Marker. And that's why I'm here.
(31:47):
She then went on to get a PhD in conservation biology and emphasizing what she did a lot of
line research in Africa and is now a chief scientist at San Diego's use conservation research institute.
Who knew? Who knew that a moment like that could have an impact on somebody? And that's why I think
(32:09):
that as zookeepers and zoo professionals, everything that we can do to create those magical moments
has some type of seed that can sprout to some magnificant tree.
You never know. And that's the important thing to keep in mind is whenever you have to give,
you know, as a zookeeper, you have to give a talk or a presentation. So even at the end of the day,
(32:35):
if you're tired, if you had a rough day, you got to remember that you might be inspiring the future
generation of conservationists of zookeepers because all of us that are in the animal field
had that person most likely at a young age that inspired us to get into the field that we're in.
So those are the things I think for me that I look back on and I think as a zookeeper,
(32:56):
you know, I had some amazing opportunities. I totally agree. There's keepers all over the
world doing amazing things and it's always amazing we can learn from those experiences.
Thank you, Bob, for coming on. I feel like we could just sit down and chat. I wish I was closer to you.
I'd come over and we could all tell you about zookeeping.
But, uh, well, I'll tell you, um, we have an open house policy. So if you find yourself out in this
(33:20):
area, um, if for any reason, I'm about an hour from Blank Park Zoo. So I find yourself headed
to Blank Park. Just lift me up, come over, spend the night. I will feed you fat.
I appreciate the invite. If I'm ever in Iowa, I will take you up, but you enjoy your nice big
spacious house. I still have the ocean. So I will enjoy that. I'll take what I can get.
(33:43):
I miss the oceans. I miss the mountains. Yeah. But, you know, I was a military brat, so we moved
all over the place and we just adjust to wherever we're living. Anyway, yeah, I'm the same way I
could talk to you forever. And don't be a stranger. You know, just if you have a moment and I'm always
happy to be a thought partner. That's the one thing that I, um, I will say out there is that
(34:07):
anybody have any ideas that they just want to run by me, I'm happy to be a thought partner on it.
I will keep that in my eye. I'll stay in touch and reach out to you from time to time. Thanks, Bob.
Sounds good.
Big thanks to Bob for coming on the podcast. I had a great conversation with him and I look
(34:28):
forward to having him on in the future. In the meantime, for everyone else, this is the last
podcast before Christmas. We are in the midst of the holiday season. If you would like to do
something nice for me, all I ask for is please share this podcast with someone you think might
enjoy it and maybe give it a review. Five stars would be nice. Four I would take. Not, you know,
(34:56):
what? On second thought, let's make it all five stars. I would love to hear from you.
Like and follow on the Instagram and blue sky. All the links are in the show description.
And send me an email if you have any words of encouragement, any nice things you want to say,
any mean things you want to say, any stories you want to tell. Maybe you can be one of my guests
(35:18):
in the future. My email is wildtalespod at gmail.com. That's Tails T-A-I-L-S. Thank you all for listening
and until next time, stay wild, my friends.
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