July 28, 2024 • 62 mins
30 Years of Extreme: The Legacy of ECW
In this episode, Fumi Saito & Justin Knipper delve deep into the history of Extreme Championship Wrestling (ECW) and its profound impact on the wrestling world. Join us as we explore the origins of ECW in the early 90s, Paul Heyman's takeover, and the creative revolution that followed.
They discuss Heyman's early career, from his teenage years as a wrestling photographer to his influential role at Studio 54. Learn about the transformation of Eastern Championship Wrestling into the hardcore haven known as ECW and the key figures who made it legendary, including Sabu, Terry Funk, and The Dudley Brothers.
Discover how ECW became a breeding ground for future stars like Chris Jericho, Eddie Guerrero, and Rey Mysterio, and how it influenced modern wrestling promotions. Fumi & Justin also reflect on the unique culture, creativity, and spirit of ECW that still resonates today.
Whether you're a longtime fan or new to the world of ECW, this episode offers a comprehensive look at the revolutionary promotion that changed wrestling forever. Tune in and relive the extreme legacy of ECW!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(02:54):
Music.
And also, we got to talk about ECW, the real ECW, not WWE version of ECW,
(03:17):
but what extreme championship wrestling was in the 90s and what it meant.
Of course. Yeah, and their place in wrestling.
And today's fans, or maybe our listeners out there for our podcast,
probably the audience is a little older than your WWE universe, right?
(03:38):
So they know a lot about it. But it kind of hit me, you know,
just that it's been, it's 2023 now, right?
Right. It's actually been 30 years, 30 years since Paul Heyman took over the company.
That's pretty wild. Ooh, 30 years. 30 years.
Yeah. It was, you know, it was, you know, the 1993, it was Eastern Championship
(04:04):
Wrestling in Philadelphia.
And the booker, producer was Eddie Gilbert, and something, late Eddie Gilbert,
that something happened and then he, Paul Heyman was called in and they said,
you want to come over and run the card?
And that was, you know, he was, for the first time he was allowed to be very, very creative.
(04:26):
See, Paul Heyman goes back actually longer than that, you know,
that he was involved in wrestling when he was like 14, 15 years old.
Did you know that? Wow. Yeah. Oh, from the magazines, from the photo. Yes.
Photography. No, today's, you know, the equivalent would be your wrestling website
(04:51):
or somebody doing your own podcast.
It would have to be, right? Yeah.
But then it was a fanzine that you do your own bulletin.
Yeah. Yeah, create your own magazine. for the
local territory or for the the regions around
where you live you can cover that because the shipping and
(05:11):
handling isn't that expensive or you can go
national you know that you run the photocopy xerox we used to xerox yep yeah
machine you create your own magazine actually the photos were cut out from like
a bill after magazine and you paste it but still you create your own story and
the matching result from around the territory.
(05:32):
And he actually was a photographer.
And he was a kind of wrestling, you know, Paul Heyman was a kind of wrestling fan.
You know, they have once a month Madison Square Garden, right?
And after Madison Square Garden once a month, big spectacular show,
he was a kind of fan, goes to Marriott Hotel and wait for wrestlers.
(05:55):
You know get autograph or get picture taken or just start talking to wrestlers
and all and yeah just like a lot of the later on wrestler or magazine editors
would do you know yeah because i used to you know go to hotel and then you know wait for terry funk.
Yeah when i was a little kid not a little kid but like like 10th grade yeah sure sure.
(06:20):
So Paul Heyman was like that. And also, he was also, when he was 19,
he was staff, like a semi-producer at the famous nightclub called Studio 54, disco.
Of course, the legendary, infamous Studio 54. Yeah, Studio 54.
Yeah, they made movie out of that. That's right, yeah.
(06:42):
So he was actually there, like such a city, the Manhattan, New York, New York City guy.
You know yeah for for context if you're not familiar with
studio 54 it was a big it was a famous disco club in
the late 70s early 80s and at one
point it's it was the ultimate hot spot
for celebrities athletes politicians everybody
(07:05):
was there so paul heyman was also there he was
rubbing shoulders with a lot of important people i'm sure right and
also you know younger people like a very you
know what would be the word that you know younger
models or the actor want to
be yeah young young trend yeah somebody who
(07:25):
want to be discovered there yeah yeah
all all of the people that you know want to be that make it in new york city
you got to be seen at this studio 54 yeah so it was interesting so he was there
and he worked there and also there's a famous photo you know paul Heyman with
lots of hair, right? Of course, he was like 18, 19.
(07:47):
The photo taken was Lou Albano and Freddie Blassie and Grand Wizard of Wrestling.
You know, I mean, legend managers, right?
Yeah. And also, he was friend with Bam Bam Bigelow before neither of them were in the business. Yeah.
I mean, it goes back to like 85, 86, yeah. Okay. And actually,
(08:09):
he wanted to start somewhere, yeah?
Oh, New York Independent, of course. And there was a time back in 1987,
Paul Heyman came down to Tampa, Florida to be trained.
I mean, he wanted to be a manager, but there's nobody trained manager then that
you go to practice just like a wrestler.
(08:29):
And also the ones who didn't make it as a wrestler, you could almost be manager,
right? Like you managed.
But nobody wanted to be manager to start with.
But people like the hero Matsuda put him in the ring, actually.
Did you know that? That the first day at practice, young Scott Hall gave young
(08:51):
Paul Heyman power slam on that ring canvas.
And they thought they killed him.
Power slamming, you know, 180-pound, you know, 18, 19-year-old Paul Heyman.
Young Scott Hall did it. You know, power slam, boom.
So they wanted him to quit that day, right? But he came back.
(09:14):
Much like, you know, five, six years earlier, they wanted Hulk Hogan to quit, right?
So Hiram Matsuda stretched him. But he came back the next day,
so they decided to train him.
So he traveled all the way from New York to Tampa to be, I mean,
of course, being involved, but just to put your foot in the door.
(09:39):
And it was the right thing, yeah. And also when Bigger went to Tennessee, he was there too.
Then he met with Jerry Lawler and original Midnight Express,
like Dennis Condry and Randy Rose. Not the Bobby Eaton and Stan Lane or Dennis
Condry, but the original Midnight Express was Dennis Condry and Randy Rose then.
(10:03):
And also met with eddie gilbert and missy hyatt at the time yeah then and then he uh,
finally found his way to into nwa crackit promotion yeah before he was in wcw
and they they even had this original midnight express against new midnight express program.
(10:26):
And what was interesting was that uh when he went to dallas tennessee and dallas,
paul heyman met me mark mark callous at the time who will be the undertaker
a decade later not a decade but you know like five six years later so they met
that the paul heyman met all these people
(10:48):
before they were like superstars. Interesting, huh?
It's interesting how it all circled back to their beginnings, you know?
Yeah. He had AWA run too, you know, AWA, you know, in like a last leg that not
the Minneapolis AWA anymore, but they were running Las Vegas Showboat,
(11:08):
you know, the ESPN that they were just doing TV.
And it was like, uh, probably today's audience don't know the word that the
The syndication TV thing. Right, right.
Yeah. And actually, Paul Heyman had his cell phone, like mobile phone thing,
before people, anybody had cell phone.
(11:30):
You know, remember that the cell phone or the mobile phone used to be as big
as your walkie-talkie? Oh, bigger.
It was kind of like a gray block.
Yeah. Oh, yeah. And a shoulder bag, too, to carry your battery or something.
Yeah. Or amplifier or something.
I think what it signified was, especially back then, no one had a cellular phone like that.
(11:55):
So it was a nice way to set them apart from… Yeah, and that was his New York yuppie image.
Yes. Yeah. Yes, exactly. For a New Yorker. And he, of course,
used that cellular phone for foreign objects.
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
And, yeah, so he met those people. And also by 1990, he was signed with WCW,
(12:20):
early WCW, you know, like younger recruit Steve Austin before he was studying Steve Austin.
Medusa, of course, Arne Anderson, the very first incarnation of Dangerous Alliance,
when Paul Heyman was Paul E. Dangerously.
Yeah, that's right. What a name, huh? yeah then that's
(12:44):
a bounce i mean he the wcw management
didn't really you know like people like
jim words and you know like people from wc then that more about the ted turner
tv producers type that they didn't really respect dressing managers right that's
right that's it yeah the same problem jim cornet had to face then he left and
(13:06):
the poor him didn't really recognize his real
talent there i mean what's so good about wrestling
manager right they just didn't take wrestling
manager too seriously it was about the wrestlers and
tv producers but the paul came up with a lot of a lot of ideas then yeah then
(13:28):
but the broken heart i guess he was like going and he came back to east coast
again and september of 93 ecw then eastern championship wrestling.
With todd gordon you know and they
basically asked him to run the show you know
after they had a falling out with eddie gilbert that's when
(13:50):
he brought his dirty dozen dirty dozen
yeah yeah paul is a whole bunch of
east you know east coast independent guys that nobody knew about but the one
by one paul start giving them character and gimmick and and storyline and pretty
soon that they didn't become extreme championship wrestling until the following year.
(14:16):
But 93 and 94, you know, beginning of 94, Paul Heyman really started making
things like start creating things.
See, when you talk about Dudley Brothers, you would think, you know,
it's a Baba and Devon, right?
But the original Dudley was Dudley Dudley.
Dudley, yes. Yeah, yeah. And the five other Dudleys were there,
(14:39):
you know, and of course, Dudley.
Yeah, yeah. Big Dick Dudley. Of course.
Spike Dudley. And a little bit later on. Yeah, a little bit later on. That's right.
Sign guy Dudley 911.
9-1-1, he was in the circle, sure, sure. Yeah, and also that Raven showed up,
(15:03):
dressed up just like Raven.
Scotty, he was Scotty the Body, Scotty Flamigo.
With WWF, he was Johnny Polo falling out.
He was just like Polo, that he wanted to be creative,
and he already created the character Raven before he showed up,
(15:25):
but this bingo hall you know before it
was ecw arena you know and yeah salmon
see that before salmon had this drunken
you know that the zubas pants
t-shirt with candlestick he had that that
wet suit like a surfer yeah sand
(15:46):
man like he's a guy from the beach yeah yeah but
the salmon they thought it was you know that the same man before
you fall you know falling you know watch dreams you know
yeah so they they sat down and
really thought about a lot of characters taz wasn't
like that he was a tasmaniac monster you know
treaded hair but no he has amateur wrestling background and he can be just like
(16:10):
the hardcore steiner style then pretty soon he was taz and tommy dreamer was
helping out the 24 year old tommy dreamer was just doing everything you You
know, of course he wrestles,
but they start helping producing.
They were producing ECW TV show at Paul Heyman's parents' house basement for a long time.
(16:35):
That's in a movie, Beyond the Mat, if you remember.
Saw it in the theater. Yeah. Okay. They were doing a voiceover and Paul Heyman's
mother ironed laundry in the background.
Yeah. Yeah, well, they were shooting the regular TV intros and other segments
(16:56):
behind the ECW banner that was hanging in the basement.
Sure, and they're doing the promo right there.
Much like back then there was a movie like Wayne's World, remember?
Yeah, of course. Yeah, they were like that. And they're printing up the poster
and going to local general stores and drug stores and ask them if they could
(17:19):
put up the poster for the local shows.
And they worked like a commune.
They ate together and stayed together, watched wrestling video all night long.
They talked about wrestling and what they can do.
And every three weeks, they started running the bingo hall show.
And pretty soon that was ECW Arena.
(17:43):
Paul was watching japanese tapes a lot you know that the
fmw fan onita fan and that
the one he wanted was sabu you know he's
until then until 93 sabu didn't really work the big big territory or big company
in the states but he had you know regular position regular gig like he you know
(18:05):
sabu was in japan like five six seven towards the towards the year basically
working full-time for or Onita's FMW.
And so basically Paul Heyman wanted to bring Sabu in, like new discovery,
like second coming, you know.
And another guy, Shane Douglas, was like, you know, big league reject.
(18:27):
He was dynamic dude with WCW and he was basically let go. But he was another
one who had a very creative mind.
And pretty soon these pieces and,
you know, important pieces of puzzle and it's
coming together and yeah i was there
and that's when i met paul and just
(18:47):
it was like a very very like almost like overwhelming to be sitting in a dressing
room how enthusiastic and everybody worked so hard and everybody had a lot to
say about a lot of things and always had something they want to do i mean physical
wise but the creative you know.
(19:08):
Storyline wise and it was a bunch of guys that were like wanted to make it you
know not well probably not you know a lot of guys wanted to go to major league wrestling at the time.
Wcw or wwf right but most of
the guys wanted to be there because they want to be part of that right not to
(19:29):
be cliche but he was really revolutionizing it and come come to think of it
it's this is monday night war time remember it was wwf then then wwf monday night raw and,
wcw monday nitro and that's what everybody was watching you know and 95 on 96
(19:51):
even before nwo that monday night became the night that everybody said home and watch wrestling huh.
It was definitely you look forward to
monday right yeah yeah and also you could you could sense that and you could
almost feel that that the wrestling boom is coming back see the initial boom
(20:12):
period oh there are a lot of you know boom period over over the years in in 20th century but the 94,
wrestlemania era and they were calling wwa and vince mcmahon wrestling renaissance and all these
things right and then and then mid to
late 90s you had this monday night
(20:33):
war thing there's like you wouldn't think any smaller company will have see
bigger company will get bigger right but you didn't think that the bigger company
i mean smaller companies like a starting up independent company like ecw will
have a chance but those see those are the days is that the AWA went out of business,
(20:53):
big AWA, Vernon Garnier's AWA, you know, went out of business.
That Tennessee, Jerry Lawless, Tennessee, and Dallas combined,
you know, they became one company, Tennessee and Memphis.
Then pretty soon they went out of business, right?
And all these territory really died out.
And it was really the two big, you know, two big major company era,
(21:17):
WWE and WCW. but the Paul really believed in.
What they can do in that you know of course started out as pretty niche,
and the theme was niche too you know because first
it was hardcore revolution right and also until then almost forgotten legend
(21:39):
but they revived the living legend of professional wrestling they brought in
53-year-old terry funk to be their like moral leader you know and the The guru, yeah.
That was, and you could tell by watching the movie Beyond the Mat, huh?
Very much so. That was, yeah.
(22:02):
And it was like almost a revival, you know, basically Terry Funk's final huge run in America.
Well, actually, he joined WCW a little bit and even went to WWE,
WWF as a chance for Charlie a little bit later on.
But as a living legend, Texas Bronco, that your icon, Terry Funk,
(22:30):
had his very final big, huge run, like believable run with ECW.
And Paul Heyman really asked Terry Funk to be part of that thing.
And you needed a moral leader. you know not just
a bunch of you know new guys in independent this early
ecw really needed terry funk
(22:52):
does that make sense oh yeah yeah and
then right before that actually terry funk and sabu had
program worked against each other in all these no-name independent company around
around states wherever they went it was terry funk against sabu just like a
one-man main event kind thing and they brought the package together and both
(23:15):
terry funk and sabu were there yeah.
And it was like a pretty soon i believed in
it and like i said that the paul
heyman was watching a lot of japanese video right that's he was watching new
japan tapes they brought in chris benoit and eddie guerrero and dean malenko
(23:36):
when none of the company wanted him you know what i'm He was a junior heavyweight guy,
you know, and Benoit was Wild Pegasus with New Japan and Eddie Guerrero with
the costume Black Tiger and Dean Malenko was Dean Malenko.
And they had this best matches on tape and let's bring them to Philadelphia as they are.
(24:01):
And of course, too cold Scorpio. Yeah, it's like these people he watched on
Japanese video was brought in between their Japanese tours.
Younger Ray Mysterio and psychosis psychosis
before big company wanted them have them do what they can do like your lucha
(24:23):
libre style that they're so innovative and also they're relatively smaller guys
right not relatively but very
smaller guys up until then in in Mexican luchador in In American turf,
you got to be male maskers, heavyweight Mexicans, right?
Oh, yeah. It was very uncommon at the time in America. Yeah,
(24:46):
yeah. 170-pound guys, 165-pound guy.
Yeah. And, yeah, but if you bring package together, not just Ray Mysterio,
but his opponent, Psychosis, with them, you know.
And if you remember, okay, we're going to fast-forward this a little bit.
But then they started bringing this really, like, this very loyal.
(25:09):
They were calling, you know, some people are calling it cult audience.
But the people were driving in from different states just to get to,
you know, every third week ECW Arena match.
That place only holds, what, 1,300, 1,400 max.
Yeah. Yeah. And people are driving in from different states, you know.
(25:34):
And just so they want to be part of that thing.
And every time they had ECW Arena show, pretty soon they started calling ECW Arena.
They brought in new guys. If you remember Rob Van Dam, he was,
I mean, ECW was the first place that they gave Rob Van Dam any chance.
(25:59):
Or for that matter.
I remember this phone conversation with Paul that, like, in 94,
early 94, he's like, do you know Chris Jericho? Of course I know Chris Jericho.
He hasn't been exposed in American audience yet.
It's all over Japanese tapes. You know what I'm saying? He worked Tenryu's WAL
(26:22):
four times and also had a program with New Japan, and you can really see the
early Chris Jericho in Japanese tapes.
You got to remember, this is like a VHS era, a decade before the internet, right?
But tape trading between these hardcore fans was a thing.
(26:44):
And have you seen Old Japan Women's Tape?
Have you seen New Japan Descent Tape? Have you seen UWF Tape?
And all these things, the tapes that come from Japan. And American wrestlers,
or Canadian for that matter, but he wanted to have Chris Jericho come over to Philadelphia.
(27:06):
The only place Chris worked was like in America until then was Smoky Mountain, Jim Cornette's.
Very similar group. Short run, no?
Short lived, but yes. Chris Jericho and Lance Storm as sudden death. I mean, sudden impact.
They drove over to Kentucky area, and then they worked Jim Cornette's Smoky Mountain a little bit.
(27:32):
But that company didn't last.
Then the talented one went to Japan.
Then Paul, one by one, started discovering this exceptionally talented,
charismatic one that the big two company hasn't discovered yet.
And Chris Jericho was on his way to ECW. Pretty soon, though,
(27:55):
when you become a hit with the ECW audience at the ECW Arena, WCW wants them.
You know, they took Ray Mysterio, they took Chris Jericho,
they took Raven, Sam, and, you know, all these guys that were just making their
(28:15):
names with ECW, they got signed away.
Of course, before Chris Jericho and Ray Mysterio, Benoit, Dean Malenko,
Eddie Gray, they all went to WCW.
And the mentality you know the mindset back then was that you need to go to
WCW first then go to WWF then you'll be even bigger does that make sense that's
(28:39):
the thinking huh yeah that was a pattern yeah because if we went to you know from,
ECW to WWF you'll be pretty much the opening match guy that was also kind of what ECW.
Was about in that it was a place for wrestlers that at the time couldn't get on television.
(29:00):
They could get a lot more time and bigger chances at ECW.
But you have to be actually good. Well, of course, of course.
But this applies to more of the people that didn't get a fair shake.
Yeah. Then also, during Monday Night War, WWE, WWF, and WCW, total enemies, right?
(29:23):
But actually, even during that time period, Paul Heyman and people within WWF were friendly.
Yeah. They were able to talk.
And before this, you know, barely legal, very first ECWs, their own pay-per-view,
(29:43):
they went to Monday Night Raw and they made a special appearance.
Oh, yeah. A couple. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, some people are iffy, and also even people like Jim Ross said,
wow, they're from a Philadelphia local franchise.
Get the 50 minutes of fame. They had to say it that way. Right, right.
(30:04):
But they let them be on their national programming.
So they were basically friendly. And WWE even liked the fact that they created
Blue Wall Order, You know, BWO, when WCW was running the NWO seriously.
And there's a little bit of a parody of that. And they respected Paul's creativity.
(30:31):
It was an alternative product. It was very different from WCW and WWF were different as well,
but it felt like here's the mainstream
big leagues, and ECW is like the alternative grunge band of the time.
Yeah, you had a lot of alternative bands like Offspring, the Pearl Jam.
(30:55):
Nirvana, of course, and the music was just like a rock and roll theme almost.
It felt like that so it's
okay to be a little bit of like the production wasn't as you can't be the production
wasn't as good as WWF of course not because they're producing their own TV show
(31:16):
but they're like they can produce such good music out of your garage kind of feeling,
yeah it was unique yeah I really really believed it and the Japanese company
like IWA Japan and FMW, of course,
they stopped working more and more and working together with ECW.
(31:39):
And Paul and his crew brought the group of ECW superstars into FMW tour,
and they taped matches in Japan, and they made it look like ECW had a Japan tour.
Actually it was FMW show though but yeah because I remember because I did the opening of the show,
(32:03):
that's right I remember seeing those on television and they made it feel like
a big big big deal on ECW TV in America.
Yeah, because it really wasn't ECW tour of Japan.
They worked FMW tours with a whole bunch of ECW guys.
(32:27):
But Paul was so smart that they brought all kinds of different footage from
FMW, and they let them use that.
They didn't have this explosion barbed wire match or anything like that while they were there.
But they brought Onita tape over, and they made it look like they had that there.
I remember seeing footage of Tommy Dreamer and Raven in IWA remember that?
(32:53):
Yeah and Stevie Richards
Stevie Richards is probably there oh yeah but they had a total of three tours
and they made it seem a lot bigger than that and also there was a time it was
a year after Baylor League so it would be 98 that Onita was really interested in.
(33:16):
Let me have to show Onita himself was really interested in what ECW was doing in America.
So he wanted to bring this explosion bomb match in America and Paul wanted to do it.
But there was like a regulation about fireworks and other things and licensing in states of New York.
(33:37):
And they had to be in a certain area where you
can use firework fire work and his license and
and and the permission from fire department fire motion all
these things is way too complicated you know what i'm saying and that
didn't happen but onita did come over one weekend to tape it you know the promo
and the match never took place was onita against sandman the explosion match
(34:01):
i remember i remember him wearing a kind of yukata or something.
Yeah, Hakama. I never had seen him wear anything like that before.
Yeah, but that's what Onita wanted to do. But Paul wanted to have one of those
silver white tank top with blue trunks and says Onita on his butt.
(34:27):
That was the tights Paul Heyman wanted from Onita, making a special appearance
at ECW Arena. But they had a different idea that Onita wanted to be more Japanese or something.
And so they brought his kimono and all these things. So there's a little bit
of miscommunication was there.
But we had a meeting that this explosion, deathmatch, barbed wire thing was
(34:50):
going to happen in the stateside.
But at the same time, it was ECW becoming so much bigger than they expected, much faster, right?
And it was becoming a number three company in the stateside.
And they signed the deal with...
Tennessee national television tnt later
(35:11):
on they changed changed the name but they were all
sudden on on this national cable channel the nashville network it was okay okay
national yeah it was like a country music network initially yeah but it's still
national cable yes yes yeah so they've They've gotten much bigger too fast, huh?
(35:35):
Yeah. It happened really quickly, huh? Only in maybe two, three years.
But all together, it was like an eight-year period.
Yes, yes. Yeah, because they lasted until like 2001, you know, like January, you know.
But it really became September of 93, and it took them three years to get on
(35:57):
a much important market then, that's to be on pay-per-view.
That's the only way to survive or only way to make it as a big company.
And they were saying that once you get on this regular pay-per-view market four
times a year, you're not going to need WWE kind of thing.
(36:17):
And they were almost going to make it before the internet, though.
Right. Or as the internet was in its early development.
Yeah, but the not moving image. No, no, not like streaming images,
but it should be noted that ECW was one of the early companies to embrace the
(36:38):
internet and internet-related technology and media approach.
Yeah, yeah, but not everybody had a laptop yet, though. You know what I'm saying?
No, no, it wasn't that common.
Right, right, let alone smartphone, you know?
But it was like that. And what was so interesting was that Paul was always playing
(37:03):
with the idea that like one night,
you know, he and I sat down and he was like, he wants to create a tag team that
kick out everything at the count of one. What?
This guy would kick out every move at the count of one, not even solid two count.
Nobody has done it, right? I mean, something that comes up is something that nobody has seen.
(37:30):
Have you seen anybody that any cover, any attempt fall, the pinfall,
this guy kicks out at the count of one instead of two?
I've never seen someone do that consistently throughout a match. As a character?
No. I think it would be pretty exhausting, to be honest with you.
(37:50):
Yeah i mean to be to create a tough guy though
to create a tough guy but yeah yeah
yes i i've never seen anything like that as
a gimmick and also what salmon salmon
was doing at the time was that that uh they had this this like a false count
anywhere type bra and all over the building and back to the ring right that
(38:15):
you don't know you don't really notice in you know during the match, but,
Sandman never tried to pin a guy once. Never went to cover.
I never tried to win. How can I lose? Wow.
There you go. And also, a wrestler with no finish.
(38:37):
I mean, always like some bra or something and then just fall on top of this
guy and then happen to be able to pin this guy, but a wrestler with no finish. Wow.
It's a lot of different creative ideas they had.
Well, interesting, huh, Sandman? Go back to some of the old Sandman's match.
(38:58):
Right, during the match, like a course of 20, 25 minutes, he never attempted pinfall.
So never tried to win the match. How can I lose?
Very interesting. Interesting philosophy.
But there was all the candlestick and the beer cans and all these things that
you didn't notice any of that.
(39:19):
But when you go back to video and watch it one more time, Right.
Sandman never attempted pinfall. How can I lose when you don't try to win?
Exemptly. Yeah. So there's a lot of things. Raven had a lot of different ideas.
And it was a bunch of guys with all kinds of ideas.
(39:40):
And also there was like a piece of paper on the dressing room door.
Nobody does German suplex until Rob Van Damme. Kind of like that.
Because it's a finish for rob vandam's match right
nobody should be using the
same move until he gets out you know and they
(40:01):
get out of the dressing room i mean it kills it right
i mean i think a lot of companies today could use that
system yeah because it's like you're doing a
vertical suplex or belly-to-belly suplex or
the superplex if somebody's finish was the
superplex off the top of nobody should be touching it
right and sometimes you see him back to
(40:22):
back yeah even there was a there was a piece of paper on on the wall no breaking
the table until sabu that's right nobody should be you know getting the table
out of the under the ring and break the table because you could do it anytime
you know anybody can do it but it doesn't mean anything until it means something.
Yeah so nobody's touching the table until
(40:44):
sabu's match and it just that's like
all right that's what they're doing today and also
there's one time it was really interesting if you remember like destroying
the ring and making the hall during a taz
against bam bam bigelow match i do
remember that the famous one where they fall through the state or
the ring yeah and then a big haul
(41:06):
right yes actually they
did that back in like in in early
60s if you if you know what it is it was
actually a haystack calhoun against happy hamphrey both
guys 500 you know 500 pound guys the finish
was that the ring collapsed kind of thing
right yeah and it was bam
(41:28):
bam bigelow against taz match that the one of
the suplex will you know make a big haul onto the
mat they did that you know years
before undertaker and kane and
what was interesting that that you are not supposed to be even standing in that
corner because in my break right and the taz bam bam big enough match you wouldn't
(41:54):
come to like seventh match of the evening and until then they were so careful
not to work on that side of the mat,
but they were so you know doing it so well that nobody in the audience noticed anything.
Very well produced huh i mean all around i mean entire night was one show right
(42:14):
yeah yeah so they did a lot of interesting things then or even uh when the ring
broke for real during the match.
And the mikey whitbeck was actually the ring guy to fix
everything usually and even mikey
couldn't fix it but so they uh what they.
Did was that uh asked kamono wanalee to
(42:36):
come out and dance ah that's fame that's
a famous it's a legendary story yeah yeah
i was so lucky that i was there that night wow it
wasn't even the part of the show dance yeah because
it was actually accident that that
the ring actually broke wasn't the greatest ring right and
(42:57):
then mikey whippen went down you know under the ring and said
you know giving the signs it's fucked it's fucked
right excuse my language but yeah and it's
like can you fix it no i don't think we can
fix it tonight because we need the part new parts oh wow
then they actually after ring
broke sabu and rob vanden went
(43:18):
in and had their single match with the handicapped ring
and they came up with a lot
of the idea was loosen up one one one side
rope that they came up with something that
nobody has scene it's like wow but the
kamono wana leia part was really interesting and
the poll came up his idea is we gotta kill at least
45 minutes to an hour right it's like it's talking
(43:41):
10 10 30 at night and people are not leaving and i asked kamono wana leia that
can you please dance and you guys you know save you know save our ass then you
save the show you save everybody and please and kamono One day.
I didn't really want to do it.
And she's an actual dancer. You know what I'm saying?
(44:04):
Wonderful dancer. She came up with kind of dance that doesn't show anything,
but it looks like it shows something. Came pretty close.
Yeah, but he had this big bath towel on top.
Flip-flop a little bit, but never really show anything. A doubt.
(44:25):
Nothing illegal. Illegal.
I mean, nothing that you cannot use on TV. Exactly.
But the dance was really good, and they just saved everybody's night.
And the name Kamonamonolea came from Raven's idea.
He came up with it. Yeah, it sounds like something he'd come up with, huh?
(44:48):
Yeah, Kamana Wanalea. Kamana Wanalea. Oh, that's a great name.
Yeah, yeah. Very clever. A lot of things. It's just spontaneous and creative,
and energy was always there. That's what I'm talking about.
That not nearly as controlled and produced as, you know, WWF,
you know. At the time, WCW, MESS.
MESS meaning you are producing nitro for the boys, you know,
(45:13):
to save their, you know, each star's ego, right?
Sort of not for the purpose of creating great TV shows, but everybody had this
creative idea, and Paul was there to at least listen to it.
And if it's good, let's try this next week.
(45:35):
And people were so, it's like, I mean, once you're being counted on,
that their motivation goes up, you know what I'm saying?
Dressing room was great when you walk into this ECW arena's dressing room like
(45:55):
4 o'clock in the afternoon 4 or 5 hours before the show starts,
3 o'clock 4 o'clock they're already there cutting woods and trees,
they're building foreign objects for the night.
Yeah it's like wow and also So there's a spot for Terry Funk and they sit and one by one,
(46:19):
you know, the rest of the company, you know, may I sit with,
you know, sit here and sit right next to Terry Funk and talk about 15,
20 minutes, just anything,
you know, always have questions that they wanted to ask Terry Funk and Terry Funk will answer you.
You know what I'm saying oh that was I had a real great time and then I
(46:40):
really believed in them I did and
pretty soon but like I said that the company has you know gotten business wise
much bigger too fast that they can handle it and then actually they Paul wasn't
good bookkeeper I guess you know and yeah,
(47:01):
so it was like they just kind of start falling you know falling apart you know
and i guess paul decided to let it die you know of course taji was there he
witnessed pretty much everything.
And Masato Tanaka, if you remember. Oh, yeah, too. Mike Awesome, Masato Tanaka.
(47:25):
Yeah, yeah. So they were brought in. And pretty soon, you know,
that the WCW wanted him, you know, that Mike Awesome.
And all these guys who've gotten bigger, you know, and had their place in WCW
was pretty soon, you know, distant, you know, like aim to be signed away by WCW.
It was like they weren't feeling them, but they wanted to sign them away.
(47:47):
But Paul said, you know, if you get a big contract with WCW,
take it. You know, this is your chance.
Because at the time, WCW, they were signing guys. It was like,
okay, what was the deal? I got $350,000. I got $400,000.
I got $500,000. Wow, that's a big contract, right? A lot of money going around, yeah.
(48:07):
Yeah, yeah. I mean, $350,000 means you got $350,000. $400,000, $400,000, $500,000.
Are you making half a million with that guy? I was like, wow. You go there, you sign.
And half the time, they didn't even work nitro. Right. Some people didn't even work the whole month.
Yeah. And then go to town and get on a red-eye flight on Monday night,
(48:33):
come right home. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah. That would kill a company, huh?
And during all this time, too, with ECW, Toby, this is when that cable deal
was taking place right before, when all the bookkeeping and other issues started to kick in. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. So just to get the timeline right and just to kind of,
(48:59):
I remember when that show got canceled, it felt different, felt ominous.
Yeah it sounded like an end of
a short era kind of yeah they officially closed shop in April 2001 yeah but
(49:19):
pretty soon Paul himself was signed as a color commentator for Monday Night
Raw sitting there with Jim Ross himself so.
They wanted him not everybody from former ECW but yeah Yeah.
They wanted to have Paul Heyman as your commentator and also part of the producer
(49:42):
in your production. Yeah.
Then it took them another four years, 2005, if you remember,
2004 then, One Night Stand.
Oh, yeah. Yep. Yeah. They brought the entire old-fashioned, original ECW back
to your Manhattan Center.
And it was that real deal, true to ECW spirit kind of show.
(50:09):
Yeah, and they let Sandman be Sandman.
During that period, Rob Van Dam finally became WWE champion, beating John Cena.
Short period of time, but it was very revolutionary.
Very much so.
Yeah but when they returned wwe version
(50:33):
of ecw as a third brand it wasn't
the same it was just in
name it was this it was similar but it was a
different issue it was a different story yeah yeah people
like big shaw big show a christian holding
ecw title with different design belt and all
that yeah it's just but they
(50:55):
did they did bring in younger
cm punk in that you know in the park yeah so
that there was some good in it but it was already 15
years ago you know and like we
said at the beginning of this in episode 93 when
paul took over eastern championship wrestling and following
year made it ecw but the extreme championship wrestling you know also worked
(51:19):
the conjunction is late dan scarluzzo's nwa he created the new nwa national
wrestling alliance revived the nwa world heavyweight title and shane douglas
won it and the very same night,
at the end of the show they dumped the belt and made ecw world title yeah that
was interesting huh that was a kind of famous promo after douglas and too cold
(51:44):
scorpio had that match for the vacant title.
Yeah. And that's where that, you know, like we said, the extreme came into it.
Even Paul Heyman wanted to revive this old-fashioned NWA, but then quickly realized,
but that's like borrowing authority,
(52:05):
you know, figure name that NWA is no more, that the winning NWA back is fine,
but to dump it in the in the middle of the ring right after and create ECW into
their new World Heavyweight Championship.
That was the whole idea. He didn't come up with it until the night before that.
(52:25):
Yeah, but that's when real hardcore ECW audience started believing in a real revolution.
Yeah, it became such 90s championship instead of borrowing something famous from 70s.
Does that make sense? It was new. It was definitely contrite and unique, and it felt special.
(52:51):
It was a third option.
Yeah yeah and believable option at that yeah and also shortly after ecw went down for real,
that the guys who worked under paul heyman created roh today well not today's
awroh but the original ring of honor at the same building ecw arena younger
(53:16):
guys yeah and it really means how many today's wrestler went through that ROH many many many.
So I think it just has this
historical connection to just like all 90
to late 90s into 2000 in ECW and almost like a sequel to ECW that Ring of Honor
(53:39):
was created in Philadelphia and all these younger generation younger than the
original ECW guys but the young you know know, Brian Danielson,
Cesar Rollins before Cesar Rollins was Cesar Rollins at the,
that Kevin, Kevin Steen, that Kevin Owens was, you know, he was a young 19 year old Kevin Steen.
(54:02):
They all go when you went through ROH and it's just now it's 20 years later,
but I think I, you, you really see the connection there.
And now that today's wrestling fans look at Paul Heyman as just this,
my name is Paul Heyman, wise man.
(54:23):
And also, this is basically the focal point of this bloodline thing.
Roman Reigns is a huge superstar, but you really need wise man Paul Heyman in
there, though. You know what I'm saying?
And Paul Heyman has been in the picture, in the main picture.
It's Brock Lesnar, yeah.
(54:45):
Next big thing. After ECW, you know, we all continued to watch Paul Heyman on television.
He was gone for five, six years, actually, though. You know, Heyman hustle thing.
And Brock Lesnar basically quit WWE for real and tried UFC.
(55:07):
And Paul Heyman wasn't on camera in the UFC television. or anything like that,
but he was actually there.
Then that's when Brock Lesnar published his first book, basically published
with Paul Heyman's writing.
I sent photos from Japan that they didn't wanna borrow photos from WWE,
(55:29):
but the Japanese magazine had a whole bunch of Brock Lesnar's early pictures
from WWE, but it was in Japan.
And then, yeah, I was able to use those photos for Brock Lesnar's books.
Then I asked Paul, what's the next?
Are you ever going to come back to traditional pro wrestling?
(55:49):
He said, of course we will.
It was on the plan that Brock Lesnar needed to be UFC superstar in order to
come back to WWE as an even bigger star. Oh my gosh, they really did it, you know.
Very interesting. Very interesting, huh? So I guess as we've been seeing this,
it's like all these poem and saga. I mean, to this day.
(56:14):
There's a lot to look at. He's offered a lot.
I think so. He's been a huge, huge, huge, undeniable part of the business.
And also, what you see on TV and what you see backstage are not all that different.
Really. he was very good at blending the reality and he perhaps doesn't know
(56:38):
the difference himself well even when he was booking an ecw i i mean it was
he really knew how to tone down the,
things that weren't good in a wrestler and tune
up the highlights you know what i mean he could really he could take talent
and and make them as good as they could be into certain character or the strength
(57:04):
and weaknesses and yeah very good at producing those kinds of wrestlers yes.
So in that he's like a wrestler producer
who doesn't take bumps which he
has done yeah in between but
now that today's audience don't
know that side of Paul you know so much of
(57:27):
this wise man character was Monday today's Monday
Night Raw but that his idea has
always been pretty real you know mm-hmm that's what I'm saying and the one they're
saying like even the during this you know shield era Paul Heyman guy right mm-hmm
yeah I'm a Paul Heyman guy yeah what is for him and guys like not Not on TV,
(57:52):
but the Paul Heyman guy meant guys that would be sitting with Paul Heyman backstage talking wrestling.
Yeah. It really existed.
So, yeah, so I think that this is, like, still, he is still at his peak, you know? Mm-hmm.
(58:13):
Yeah. And, yeah. Very much so.
Much older, much wiser, I think. And looks older now, but he doesn't wear his,
you know, baseball cap or his ponytail or anything like that.
He wears his expensive suit and ties, but basically same guy.
I thought my last image i have of him is from this weekend he was involved in that roman reigns and,
(58:39):
whomever else was involved but i had
the image of him he was holding both the wwe championship
belts on his shoulder so yeah
to give you an idea of how influential this
man is that's a pretty simple image to
to be on top of the game even now after all these
years more than 30 years yeah and
(59:00):
he's really like that yeah so yeah
that's i really want to share you know
my experience with paul hammer this week very good all right so if and you know
if if people are interested in this i really recommend checking out that movie
beyond the mat yeah he's in it a lot And also like a Bailey, Bailey legal.
(59:25):
Yes. Which you were there for as well. Yeah. Yeah.
And Wrestle Palooza or the early ECW pay-per-views that they were so creative. Yeah.
The ones in Dayton, Ohio. What was the name of it? Heat Wave.
Yeah. Hayabusa and Jinsei Shinzaki came in and worked with Sabu and Rob Van Dam.
(59:48):
Yeah. Didn't you mention one time? they actually rode together to the show four
of them from Michigan because they drove,
they didn't fly wow but
those are ECW was the only company that
wanted to bring in Hayabusa and Jinsei Shinzaki as they are and put them against
(01:00:10):
Sabu and Rob Vandam well that's a guaranteed very creative match kind of like
a dream match yeah I think so Paul's
always been like that because they're producing matches he won't watch.
Exactly. So he's still a number one fan kind of thing. I feel like he's very connected.
(01:00:31):
I think so. So if people have questions or comments or anything like that,
how can we reach you online?
On Twitter at Fumihikodayo F-U-M-I-H-I-K-O-D-A-Y-O Fumihikodayo or just FumiSite
on Facebook. Please message me first.
And on Twitter, I'm at Justin M. Nipper, K-N-I-P-P-E-R.
(01:00:52):
That's it for this week. Until next time. So long from Tokyo.
Music.
Music.
And also, we got to talk about ECW, the real ECW, not WWE version of ECW,
(03:17):
but what extreme championship wrestling was in the 90s and what it meant.
Of course. Yeah, and their place in wrestling.
And today's fans, or maybe our listeners out there for our podcast,
probably the audience is a little older than your WWE universe, right?
(03:38):
So they know a lot about it. But it kind of hit me, you know,
just that it's been, it's 2023 now, right?
Right. It's actually been 30 years, 30 years since Paul Heyman took over the company.
That's pretty wild. Ooh, 30 years. 30 years.
Yeah. It was, you know, it was, you know, the 1993, it was Eastern Championship
(04:04):
Wrestling in Philadelphia.
And the booker, producer was Eddie Gilbert, and something, late Eddie Gilbert,
that something happened and then he, Paul Heyman was called in and they said,
you want to come over and run the card?
And that was, you know, he was, for the first time he was allowed to be very, very creative.
(04:26):
See, Paul Heyman goes back actually longer than that, you know,
that he was involved in wrestling when he was like 14, 15 years old.
Did you know that? Wow. Yeah. Oh, from the magazines, from the photo. Yes.
Photography. No, today's, you know, the equivalent would be your wrestling website
(04:51):
or somebody doing your own podcast.
It would have to be, right? Yeah.
But then it was a fanzine that you do your own bulletin.
Yeah. Yeah, create your own magazine. for the
local territory or for the the regions around
where you live you can cover that because the shipping and
(05:11):
handling isn't that expensive or you can go
national you know that you run the photocopy xerox we used to xerox yep yeah
machine you create your own magazine actually the photos were cut out from like
a bill after magazine and you paste it but still you create your own story and
the matching result from around the territory.
(05:32):
And he actually was a photographer.
And he was a kind of wrestling, you know, Paul Heyman was a kind of wrestling fan.
You know, they have once a month Madison Square Garden, right?
And after Madison Square Garden once a month, big spectacular show,
he was a kind of fan, goes to Marriott Hotel and wait for wrestlers.
(05:55):
You know get autograph or get picture taken or just start talking to wrestlers
and all and yeah just like a lot of the later on wrestler or magazine editors
would do you know yeah because i used to you know go to hotel and then you know wait for terry funk.
Yeah when i was a little kid not a little kid but like like 10th grade yeah sure sure.
(06:20):
So Paul Heyman was like that. And also, he was also, when he was 19,
he was staff, like a semi-producer at the famous nightclub called Studio 54, disco.
Of course, the legendary, infamous Studio 54. Yeah, Studio 54.
Yeah, they made movie out of that. That's right, yeah.
(06:42):
So he was actually there, like such a city, the Manhattan, New York, New York City guy.
You know yeah for for context if you're not familiar with
studio 54 it was a big it was a famous disco club in
the late 70s early 80s and at one
point it's it was the ultimate hot spot
for celebrities athletes politicians everybody
(07:05):
was there so paul heyman was also there he was
rubbing shoulders with a lot of important people i'm sure right and
also you know younger people like a very you
know what would be the word that you know younger
models or the actor want to
be yeah young young trend yeah somebody who
(07:25):
want to be discovered there yeah yeah
all all of the people that you know want to be that make it in new york city
you got to be seen at this studio 54 yeah so it was interesting so he was there
and he worked there and also there's a famous photo you know paul Heyman with
lots of hair, right? Of course, he was like 18, 19.
(07:47):
The photo taken was Lou Albano and Freddie Blassie and Grand Wizard of Wrestling.
You know, I mean, legend managers, right?
Yeah. And also, he was friend with Bam Bam Bigelow before neither of them were in the business. Yeah.
I mean, it goes back to like 85, 86, yeah. Okay. And actually,
(08:09):
he wanted to start somewhere, yeah?
Oh, New York Independent, of course. And there was a time back in 1987,
Paul Heyman came down to Tampa, Florida to be trained.
I mean, he wanted to be a manager, but there's nobody trained manager then that
you go to practice just like a wrestler.
(08:29):
And also the ones who didn't make it as a wrestler, you could almost be manager,
right? Like you managed.
But nobody wanted to be manager to start with.
But people like the hero Matsuda put him in the ring, actually.
Did you know that? That the first day at practice, young Scott Hall gave young
(08:51):
Paul Heyman power slam on that ring canvas.
And they thought they killed him.
Power slamming, you know, 180-pound, you know, 18, 19-year-old Paul Heyman.
Young Scott Hall did it. You know, power slam, boom.
So they wanted him to quit that day, right? But he came back.
(09:14):
Much like, you know, five, six years earlier, they wanted Hulk Hogan to quit, right?
So Hiram Matsuda stretched him. But he came back the next day,
so they decided to train him.
So he traveled all the way from New York to Tampa to be, I mean,
of course, being involved, but just to put your foot in the door.
(09:39):
And it was the right thing, yeah. And also when Bigger went to Tennessee, he was there too.
Then he met with Jerry Lawler and original Midnight Express,
like Dennis Condry and Randy Rose. Not the Bobby Eaton and Stan Lane or Dennis
Condry, but the original Midnight Express was Dennis Condry and Randy Rose then.
(10:03):
And also met with eddie gilbert and missy hyatt at the time yeah then and then he uh,
finally found his way to into nwa crackit promotion yeah before he was in wcw
and they they even had this original midnight express against new midnight express program.
(10:26):
And what was interesting was that uh when he went to dallas tennessee and dallas,
paul heyman met me mark mark callous at the time who will be the undertaker
a decade later not a decade but you know like five six years later so they met
that the paul heyman met all these people
(10:48):
before they were like superstars. Interesting, huh?
It's interesting how it all circled back to their beginnings, you know?
Yeah. He had AWA run too, you know, AWA, you know, in like a last leg that not
the Minneapolis AWA anymore, but they were running Las Vegas Showboat,
(11:08):
you know, the ESPN that they were just doing TV.
And it was like, uh, probably today's audience don't know the word that the
The syndication TV thing. Right, right.
Yeah. And actually, Paul Heyman had his cell phone, like mobile phone thing,
before people, anybody had cell phone.
(11:30):
You know, remember that the cell phone or the mobile phone used to be as big
as your walkie-talkie? Oh, bigger.
It was kind of like a gray block.
Yeah. Oh, yeah. And a shoulder bag, too, to carry your battery or something.
Yeah. Or amplifier or something.
I think what it signified was, especially back then, no one had a cellular phone like that.
(11:55):
So it was a nice way to set them apart from… Yeah, and that was his New York yuppie image.
Yes. Yeah. Yes, exactly. For a New Yorker. And he, of course,
used that cellular phone for foreign objects.
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
And, yeah, so he met those people. And also by 1990, he was signed with WCW,
(12:20):
early WCW, you know, like younger recruit Steve Austin before he was studying Steve Austin.
Medusa, of course, Arne Anderson, the very first incarnation of Dangerous Alliance,
when Paul Heyman was Paul E. Dangerously.
Yeah, that's right. What a name, huh? yeah then that's
(12:44):
a bounce i mean he the wcw management
didn't really you know like people like
jim words and you know like people from wc then that more about the ted turner
tv producers type that they didn't really respect dressing managers right that's
right that's it yeah the same problem jim cornet had to face then he left and
(13:06):
the poor him didn't really recognize his real
talent there i mean what's so good about wrestling
manager right they just didn't take wrestling
manager too seriously it was about the wrestlers and
tv producers but the paul came up with a lot of a lot of ideas then yeah then
(13:28):
but the broken heart i guess he was like going and he came back to east coast
again and september of 93 ecw then eastern championship wrestling.
With todd gordon you know and they
basically asked him to run the show you know
after they had a falling out with eddie gilbert that's when
(13:50):
he brought his dirty dozen dirty dozen
yeah yeah paul is a whole bunch of
east you know east coast independent guys that nobody knew about but the one
by one paul start giving them character and gimmick and and storyline and pretty
soon that they didn't become extreme championship wrestling until the following year.
(14:16):
But 93 and 94, you know, beginning of 94, Paul Heyman really started making
things like start creating things.
See, when you talk about Dudley Brothers, you would think, you know,
it's a Baba and Devon, right?
But the original Dudley was Dudley Dudley.
Dudley, yes. Yeah, yeah. And the five other Dudleys were there,
(14:39):
you know, and of course, Dudley.
Yeah, yeah. Big Dick Dudley. Of course.
Spike Dudley. And a little bit later on. Yeah, a little bit later on. That's right.
Sign guy Dudley 911.
9-1-1, he was in the circle, sure, sure. Yeah, and also that Raven showed up,
(15:03):
dressed up just like Raven.
Scotty, he was Scotty the Body, Scotty Flamigo.
With WWF, he was Johnny Polo falling out.
He was just like Polo, that he wanted to be creative,
and he already created the character Raven before he showed up,
(15:25):
but this bingo hall you know before it
was ecw arena you know and yeah salmon
see that before salmon had this drunken
you know that the zubas pants
t-shirt with candlestick he had that that
wet suit like a surfer yeah sand
(15:46):
man like he's a guy from the beach yeah yeah but
the salmon they thought it was you know that the same man before
you fall you know falling you know watch dreams you know
yeah so they they sat down and
really thought about a lot of characters taz wasn't
like that he was a tasmaniac monster you know
treaded hair but no he has amateur wrestling background and he can be just like
(16:10):
the hardcore steiner style then pretty soon he was taz and tommy dreamer was
helping out the 24 year old tommy dreamer was just doing everything you You
know, of course he wrestles,
but they start helping producing.
They were producing ECW TV show at Paul Heyman's parents' house basement for a long time.
(16:35):
That's in a movie, Beyond the Mat, if you remember.
Saw it in the theater. Yeah. Okay. They were doing a voiceover and Paul Heyman's
mother ironed laundry in the background.
Yeah. Yeah, well, they were shooting the regular TV intros and other segments
(16:56):
behind the ECW banner that was hanging in the basement.
Sure, and they're doing the promo right there.
Much like back then there was a movie like Wayne's World, remember?
Yeah, of course. Yeah, they were like that. And they're printing up the poster
and going to local general stores and drug stores and ask them if they could
(17:19):
put up the poster for the local shows.
And they worked like a commune.
They ate together and stayed together, watched wrestling video all night long.
They talked about wrestling and what they can do.
And every three weeks, they started running the bingo hall show.
And pretty soon that was ECW Arena.
(17:43):
Paul was watching japanese tapes a lot you know that the
fmw fan onita fan and that
the one he wanted was sabu you know he's
until then until 93 sabu didn't really work the big big territory or big company
in the states but he had you know regular position regular gig like he you know
(18:05):
sabu was in japan like five six seven towards the towards the year basically
working full-time for or Onita's FMW.
And so basically Paul Heyman wanted to bring Sabu in, like new discovery,
like second coming, you know.
And another guy, Shane Douglas, was like, you know, big league reject.
(18:27):
He was dynamic dude with WCW and he was basically let go. But he was another
one who had a very creative mind.
And pretty soon these pieces and,
you know, important pieces of puzzle and it's
coming together and yeah i was there
and that's when i met paul and just
(18:47):
it was like a very very like almost like overwhelming to be sitting in a dressing
room how enthusiastic and everybody worked so hard and everybody had a lot to
say about a lot of things and always had something they want to do i mean physical
wise but the creative you know.
(19:08):
Storyline wise and it was a bunch of guys that were like wanted to make it you
know not well probably not you know a lot of guys wanted to go to major league wrestling at the time.
Wcw or wwf right but most of
the guys wanted to be there because they want to be part of that right not to
(19:29):
be cliche but he was really revolutionizing it and come come to think of it
it's this is monday night war time remember it was wwf then then wwf monday night raw and,
wcw monday nitro and that's what everybody was watching you know and 95 on 96
(19:51):
even before nwo that monday night became the night that everybody said home and watch wrestling huh.
It was definitely you look forward to
monday right yeah yeah and also you could you could sense that and you could
almost feel that that the wrestling boom is coming back see the initial boom
(20:12):
period oh there are a lot of you know boom period over over the years in in 20th century but the 94,
wrestlemania era and they were calling wwa and vince mcmahon wrestling renaissance and all these
things right and then and then mid to
late 90s you had this monday night
(20:33):
war thing there's like you wouldn't think any smaller company will have see
bigger company will get bigger right but you didn't think that the bigger company
i mean smaller companies like a starting up independent company like ecw will
have a chance but those see those are the days is that the AWA went out of business,
(20:53):
big AWA, Vernon Garnier's AWA, you know, went out of business.
That Tennessee, Jerry Lawless, Tennessee, and Dallas combined,
you know, they became one company, Tennessee and Memphis.
Then pretty soon they went out of business, right?
And all these territory really died out.
And it was really the two big, you know, two big major company era,
(21:17):
WWE and WCW. but the Paul really believed in.
What they can do in that you know of course started out as pretty niche,
and the theme was niche too you know because first
it was hardcore revolution right and also until then almost forgotten legend
(21:39):
but they revived the living legend of professional wrestling they brought in
53-year-old terry funk to be their like moral leader you know and the The guru, yeah.
That was, and you could tell by watching the movie Beyond the Mat, huh?
Very much so. That was, yeah.
(22:02):
And it was like almost a revival, you know, basically Terry Funk's final huge run in America.
Well, actually, he joined WCW a little bit and even went to WWE,
WWF as a chance for Charlie a little bit later on.
But as a living legend, Texas Bronco, that your icon, Terry Funk,
(22:30):
had his very final big, huge run, like believable run with ECW.
And Paul Heyman really asked Terry Funk to be part of that thing.
And you needed a moral leader. you know not just
a bunch of you know new guys in independent this early
ecw really needed terry funk
(22:52):
does that make sense oh yeah yeah and
then right before that actually terry funk and sabu had
program worked against each other in all these no-name independent company around
around states wherever they went it was terry funk against sabu just like a
one-man main event kind thing and they brought the package together and both
(23:15):
terry funk and sabu were there yeah.
And it was like a pretty soon i believed in
it and like i said that the paul
heyman was watching a lot of japanese video right that's he was watching new
japan tapes they brought in chris benoit and eddie guerrero and dean malenko
(23:36):
when none of the company wanted him you know what i'm He was a junior heavyweight guy,
you know, and Benoit was Wild Pegasus with New Japan and Eddie Guerrero with
the costume Black Tiger and Dean Malenko was Dean Malenko.
And they had this best matches on tape and let's bring them to Philadelphia as they are.
(24:01):
And of course, too cold Scorpio. Yeah, it's like these people he watched on
Japanese video was brought in between their Japanese tours.
Younger Ray Mysterio and psychosis psychosis
before big company wanted them have them do what they can do like your lucha
(24:23):
libre style that they're so innovative and also they're relatively smaller guys
right not relatively but very
smaller guys up until then in in Mexican luchador in In American turf,
you got to be male maskers, heavyweight Mexicans, right?
Oh, yeah. It was very uncommon at the time in America. Yeah,
(24:46):
yeah. 170-pound guys, 165-pound guy.
Yeah. And, yeah, but if you bring package together, not just Ray Mysterio,
but his opponent, Psychosis, with them, you know.
And if you remember, okay, we're going to fast-forward this a little bit.
But then they started bringing this really, like, this very loyal.
(25:09):
They were calling, you know, some people are calling it cult audience.
But the people were driving in from different states just to get to,
you know, every third week ECW Arena match.
That place only holds, what, 1,300, 1,400 max.
Yeah. Yeah. And people are driving in from different states, you know.
(25:34):
And just so they want to be part of that thing.
And every time they had ECW Arena show, pretty soon they started calling ECW Arena.
They brought in new guys. If you remember Rob Van Dam, he was,
I mean, ECW was the first place that they gave Rob Van Dam any chance.
(25:59):
Or for that matter.
I remember this phone conversation with Paul that, like, in 94,
early 94, he's like, do you know Chris Jericho? Of course I know Chris Jericho.
He hasn't been exposed in American audience yet.
It's all over Japanese tapes. You know what I'm saying? He worked Tenryu's WAL
(26:22):
four times and also had a program with New Japan, and you can really see the
early Chris Jericho in Japanese tapes.
You got to remember, this is like a VHS era, a decade before the internet, right?
But tape trading between these hardcore fans was a thing.
(26:44):
And have you seen Old Japan Women's Tape?
Have you seen New Japan Descent Tape? Have you seen UWF Tape?
And all these things, the tapes that come from Japan. And American wrestlers,
or Canadian for that matter, but he wanted to have Chris Jericho come over to Philadelphia.
(27:06):
The only place Chris worked was like in America until then was Smoky Mountain, Jim Cornette's.
Very similar group. Short run, no?
Short lived, but yes. Chris Jericho and Lance Storm as sudden death. I mean, sudden impact.
They drove over to Kentucky area, and then they worked Jim Cornette's Smoky Mountain a little bit.
(27:32):
But that company didn't last.
Then the talented one went to Japan.
Then Paul, one by one, started discovering this exceptionally talented,
charismatic one that the big two company hasn't discovered yet.
And Chris Jericho was on his way to ECW. Pretty soon, though,
(27:55):
when you become a hit with the ECW audience at the ECW Arena, WCW wants them.
You know, they took Ray Mysterio, they took Chris Jericho,
they took Raven, Sam, and, you know, all these guys that were just making their
(28:15):
names with ECW, they got signed away.
Of course, before Chris Jericho and Ray Mysterio, Benoit, Dean Malenko,
Eddie Gray, they all went to WCW.
And the mentality you know the mindset back then was that you need to go to
WCW first then go to WWF then you'll be even bigger does that make sense that's
(28:39):
the thinking huh yeah that was a pattern yeah because if we went to you know from,
ECW to WWF you'll be pretty much the opening match guy that was also kind of what ECW.
Was about in that it was a place for wrestlers that at the time couldn't get on television.
(29:00):
They could get a lot more time and bigger chances at ECW.
But you have to be actually good. Well, of course, of course.
But this applies to more of the people that didn't get a fair shake.
Yeah. Then also, during Monday Night War, WWE, WWF, and WCW, total enemies, right?
(29:23):
But actually, even during that time period, Paul Heyman and people within WWF were friendly.
Yeah. They were able to talk.
And before this, you know, barely legal, very first ECWs, their own pay-per-view,
(29:43):
they went to Monday Night Raw and they made a special appearance.
Oh, yeah. A couple. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, some people are iffy, and also even people like Jim Ross said,
wow, they're from a Philadelphia local franchise.
Get the 50 minutes of fame. They had to say it that way. Right, right.
(30:04):
But they let them be on their national programming.
So they were basically friendly. And WWE even liked the fact that they created
Blue Wall Order, You know, BWO, when WCW was running the NWO seriously.
And there's a little bit of a parody of that. And they respected Paul's creativity.
(30:31):
It was an alternative product. It was very different from WCW and WWF were different as well,
but it felt like here's the mainstream
big leagues, and ECW is like the alternative grunge band of the time.
Yeah, you had a lot of alternative bands like Offspring, the Pearl Jam.
(30:55):
Nirvana, of course, and the music was just like a rock and roll theme almost.
It felt like that so it's
okay to be a little bit of like the production wasn't as you can't be the production
wasn't as good as WWF of course not because they're producing their own TV show
(31:16):
but they're like they can produce such good music out of your garage kind of feeling,
yeah it was unique yeah I really really believed it and the Japanese company
like IWA Japan and FMW, of course,
they stopped working more and more and working together with ECW.
(31:39):
And Paul and his crew brought the group of ECW superstars into FMW tour,
and they taped matches in Japan, and they made it look like ECW had a Japan tour.
Actually it was FMW show though but yeah because I remember because I did the opening of the show,
(32:03):
that's right I remember seeing those on television and they made it feel like
a big big big deal on ECW TV in America.
Yeah, because it really wasn't ECW tour of Japan.
They worked FMW tours with a whole bunch of ECW guys.
(32:27):
But Paul was so smart that they brought all kinds of different footage from
FMW, and they let them use that.
They didn't have this explosion barbed wire match or anything like that while they were there.
But they brought Onita tape over, and they made it look like they had that there.
I remember seeing footage of Tommy Dreamer and Raven in IWA remember that?
(32:53):
Yeah and Stevie Richards
Stevie Richards is probably there oh yeah but they had a total of three tours
and they made it seem a lot bigger than that and also there was a time it was
a year after Baylor League so it would be 98 that Onita was really interested in.
(33:16):
Let me have to show Onita himself was really interested in what ECW was doing in America.
So he wanted to bring this explosion bomb match in America and Paul wanted to do it.
But there was like a regulation about fireworks and other things and licensing in states of New York.
(33:37):
And they had to be in a certain area where you
can use firework fire work and his license and
and and the permission from fire department fire motion all
these things is way too complicated you know what i'm saying and that
didn't happen but onita did come over one weekend to tape it you know the promo
and the match never took place was onita against sandman the explosion match
(34:01):
i remember i remember him wearing a kind of yukata or something.
Yeah, Hakama. I never had seen him wear anything like that before.
Yeah, but that's what Onita wanted to do. But Paul wanted to have one of those
silver white tank top with blue trunks and says Onita on his butt.
(34:27):
That was the tights Paul Heyman wanted from Onita, making a special appearance
at ECW Arena. But they had a different idea that Onita wanted to be more Japanese or something.
And so they brought his kimono and all these things. So there's a little bit
of miscommunication was there.
But we had a meeting that this explosion, deathmatch, barbed wire thing was
(34:50):
going to happen in the stateside.
But at the same time, it was ECW becoming so much bigger than they expected, much faster, right?
And it was becoming a number three company in the stateside.
And they signed the deal with...
Tennessee national television tnt later
(35:11):
on they changed changed the name but they were all
sudden on on this national cable channel the nashville network it was okay okay
national yeah it was like a country music network initially yeah but it's still
national cable yes yes yeah so they've They've gotten much bigger too fast, huh?
(35:35):
Yeah. It happened really quickly, huh? Only in maybe two, three years.
But all together, it was like an eight-year period.
Yes, yes. Yeah, because they lasted until like 2001, you know, like January, you know.
But it really became September of 93, and it took them three years to get on
(35:57):
a much important market then, that's to be on pay-per-view.
That's the only way to survive or only way to make it as a big company.
And they were saying that once you get on this regular pay-per-view market four
times a year, you're not going to need WWE kind of thing.
(36:17):
And they were almost going to make it before the internet, though.
Right. Or as the internet was in its early development.
Yeah, but the not moving image. No, no, not like streaming images,
but it should be noted that ECW was one of the early companies to embrace the
(36:38):
internet and internet-related technology and media approach.
Yeah, yeah, but not everybody had a laptop yet, though. You know what I'm saying?
No, no, it wasn't that common.
Right, right, let alone smartphone, you know?
But it was like that. And what was so interesting was that Paul was always playing
(37:03):
with the idea that like one night,
you know, he and I sat down and he was like, he wants to create a tag team that
kick out everything at the count of one. What?
This guy would kick out every move at the count of one, not even solid two count.
Nobody has done it, right? I mean, something that comes up is something that nobody has seen.
(37:30):
Have you seen anybody that any cover, any attempt fall, the pinfall,
this guy kicks out at the count of one instead of two?
I've never seen someone do that consistently throughout a match. As a character?
No. I think it would be pretty exhausting, to be honest with you.
(37:50):
Yeah i mean to be to create a tough guy though
to create a tough guy but yeah yeah
yes i i've never seen anything like that as
a gimmick and also what salmon salmon
was doing at the time was that that uh they had this this like a false count
anywhere type bra and all over the building and back to the ring right that
(38:15):
you don't know you don't really notice in you know during the match, but,
Sandman never tried to pin a guy once. Never went to cover.
I never tried to win. How can I lose? Wow.
There you go. And also, a wrestler with no finish.
(38:37):
I mean, always like some bra or something and then just fall on top of this
guy and then happen to be able to pin this guy, but a wrestler with no finish. Wow.
It's a lot of different creative ideas they had.
Well, interesting, huh, Sandman? Go back to some of the old Sandman's match.
(38:58):
Right, during the match, like a course of 20, 25 minutes, he never attempted pinfall.
So never tried to win the match. How can I lose?
Very interesting. Interesting philosophy.
But there was all the candlestick and the beer cans and all these things that
you didn't notice any of that.
(39:19):
But when you go back to video and watch it one more time, Right.
Sandman never attempted pinfall. How can I lose when you don't try to win?
Exemptly. Yeah. So there's a lot of things. Raven had a lot of different ideas.
And it was a bunch of guys with all kinds of ideas.
(39:40):
And also there was like a piece of paper on the dressing room door.
Nobody does German suplex until Rob Van Damme. Kind of like that.
Because it's a finish for rob vandam's match right
nobody should be using the
same move until he gets out you know and they
(40:01):
get out of the dressing room i mean it kills it right
i mean i think a lot of companies today could use that
system yeah because it's like you're doing a
vertical suplex or belly-to-belly suplex or
the superplex if somebody's finish was the
superplex off the top of nobody should be touching it
right and sometimes you see him back to
(40:22):
back yeah even there was a there was a piece of paper on on the wall no breaking
the table until sabu that's right nobody should be you know getting the table
out of the under the ring and break the table because you could do it anytime
you know anybody can do it but it doesn't mean anything until it means something.
Yeah so nobody's touching the table until
(40:44):
sabu's match and it just that's like
all right that's what they're doing today and also
there's one time it was really interesting if you remember like destroying
the ring and making the hall during a taz
against bam bam bigelow match i do
remember that the famous one where they fall through the state or
the ring yeah and then a big haul
(41:06):
right yes actually they
did that back in like in in early
60s if you if you know what it is it was
actually a haystack calhoun against happy hamphrey both
guys 500 you know 500 pound guys the finish
was that the ring collapsed kind of thing
right yeah and it was bam
(41:28):
bam bigelow against taz match that the one of
the suplex will you know make a big haul onto the
mat they did that you know years
before undertaker and kane and
what was interesting that that you are not supposed to be even standing in that
corner because in my break right and the taz bam bam big enough match you wouldn't
(41:54):
come to like seventh match of the evening and until then they were so careful
not to work on that side of the mat,
but they were so you know doing it so well that nobody in the audience noticed anything.
Very well produced huh i mean all around i mean entire night was one show right
(42:14):
yeah yeah so they did a lot of interesting things then or even uh when the ring
broke for real during the match.
And the mikey whitbeck was actually the ring guy to fix
everything usually and even mikey
couldn't fix it but so they uh what they.
Did was that uh asked kamono wanalee to
(42:36):
come out and dance ah that's fame that's
a famous it's a legendary story yeah yeah
i was so lucky that i was there that night wow it
wasn't even the part of the show dance yeah because
it was actually accident that that
the ring actually broke wasn't the greatest ring right and
(42:57):
then mikey whippen went down you know under the ring and said
you know giving the signs it's fucked it's fucked
right excuse my language but yeah and it's
like can you fix it no i don't think we can
fix it tonight because we need the part new parts oh wow
then they actually after ring
broke sabu and rob vanden went
(43:18):
in and had their single match with the handicapped ring
and they came up with a lot
of the idea was loosen up one one one side
rope that they came up with something that
nobody has scene it's like wow but the
kamono wana leia part was really interesting and
the poll came up his idea is we gotta kill at least
45 minutes to an hour right it's like it's talking
(43:41):
10 10 30 at night and people are not leaving and i asked kamono wana leia that
can you please dance and you guys you know save you know save our ass then you
save the show you save everybody and please and kamono One day.
I didn't really want to do it.
And she's an actual dancer. You know what I'm saying?
(44:04):
Wonderful dancer. She came up with kind of dance that doesn't show anything,
but it looks like it shows something. Came pretty close.
Yeah, but he had this big bath towel on top.
Flip-flop a little bit, but never really show anything. A doubt.
(44:25):
Nothing illegal. Illegal.
I mean, nothing that you cannot use on TV. Exactly.
But the dance was really good, and they just saved everybody's night.
And the name Kamonamonolea came from Raven's idea.
He came up with it. Yeah, it sounds like something he'd come up with, huh?
(44:48):
Yeah, Kamana Wanalea. Kamana Wanalea. Oh, that's a great name.
Yeah, yeah. Very clever. A lot of things. It's just spontaneous and creative,
and energy was always there. That's what I'm talking about.
That not nearly as controlled and produced as, you know, WWF,
you know. At the time, WCW, MESS.
MESS meaning you are producing nitro for the boys, you know,
(45:13):
to save their, you know, each star's ego, right?
Sort of not for the purpose of creating great TV shows, but everybody had this
creative idea, and Paul was there to at least listen to it.
And if it's good, let's try this next week.
(45:35):
And people were so, it's like, I mean, once you're being counted on,
that their motivation goes up, you know what I'm saying?
Dressing room was great when you walk into this ECW arena's dressing room like
(45:55):
4 o'clock in the afternoon 4 or 5 hours before the show starts,
3 o'clock 4 o'clock they're already there cutting woods and trees,
they're building foreign objects for the night.
Yeah it's like wow and also So there's a spot for Terry Funk and they sit and one by one,
(46:19):
you know, the rest of the company, you know, may I sit with,
you know, sit here and sit right next to Terry Funk and talk about 15,
20 minutes, just anything,
you know, always have questions that they wanted to ask Terry Funk and Terry Funk will answer you.
You know what I'm saying oh that was I had a real great time and then I
(46:40):
really believed in them I did and
pretty soon but like I said that the company has you know gotten business wise
much bigger too fast that they can handle it and then actually they Paul wasn't
good bookkeeper I guess you know and yeah,
(47:01):
so it was like they just kind of start falling you know falling apart you know
and i guess paul decided to let it die you know of course taji was there he
witnessed pretty much everything.
And Masato Tanaka, if you remember. Oh, yeah, too. Mike Awesome, Masato Tanaka.
(47:25):
Yeah, yeah. So they were brought in. And pretty soon, you know,
that the WCW wanted him, you know, that Mike Awesome.
And all these guys who've gotten bigger, you know, and had their place in WCW
was pretty soon, you know, distant, you know, like aim to be signed away by WCW.
It was like they weren't feeling them, but they wanted to sign them away.
(47:47):
But Paul said, you know, if you get a big contract with WCW,
take it. You know, this is your chance.
Because at the time, WCW, they were signing guys. It was like,
okay, what was the deal? I got $350,000. I got $400,000.
I got $500,000. Wow, that's a big contract, right? A lot of money going around, yeah.
(48:07):
Yeah, yeah. I mean, $350,000 means you got $350,000. $400,000, $400,000, $500,000.
Are you making half a million with that guy? I was like, wow. You go there, you sign.
And half the time, they didn't even work nitro. Right. Some people didn't even work the whole month.
Yeah. And then go to town and get on a red-eye flight on Monday night,
(48:33):
come right home. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah. That would kill a company, huh?
And during all this time, too, with ECW, Toby, this is when that cable deal
was taking place right before, when all the bookkeeping and other issues started to kick in. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. So just to get the timeline right and just to kind of,
(48:59):
I remember when that show got canceled, it felt different, felt ominous.
Yeah it sounded like an end of
a short era kind of yeah they officially closed shop in April 2001 yeah but
(49:19):
pretty soon Paul himself was signed as a color commentator for Monday Night
Raw sitting there with Jim Ross himself so.
They wanted him not everybody from former ECW but yeah Yeah.
They wanted to have Paul Heyman as your commentator and also part of the producer
(49:42):
in your production. Yeah.
Then it took them another four years, 2005, if you remember,
2004 then, One Night Stand.
Oh, yeah. Yep. Yeah. They brought the entire old-fashioned, original ECW back
to your Manhattan Center.
And it was that real deal, true to ECW spirit kind of show.
(50:09):
Yeah, and they let Sandman be Sandman.
During that period, Rob Van Dam finally became WWE champion, beating John Cena.
Short period of time, but it was very revolutionary.
Very much so.
Yeah but when they returned wwe version
(50:33):
of ecw as a third brand it wasn't
the same it was just in
name it was this it was similar but it was a
different issue it was a different story yeah yeah people
like big shaw big show a christian holding
ecw title with different design belt and all
that yeah it's just but they
(50:55):
did they did bring in younger
cm punk in that you know in the park yeah so
that there was some good in it but it was already 15
years ago you know and like we
said at the beginning of this in episode 93 when
paul took over eastern championship wrestling and following
year made it ecw but the extreme championship wrestling you know also worked
(51:19):
the conjunction is late dan scarluzzo's nwa he created the new nwa national
wrestling alliance revived the nwa world heavyweight title and shane douglas
won it and the very same night,
at the end of the show they dumped the belt and made ecw world title yeah that
was interesting huh that was a kind of famous promo after douglas and too cold
(51:44):
scorpio had that match for the vacant title.
Yeah. And that's where that, you know, like we said, the extreme came into it.
Even Paul Heyman wanted to revive this old-fashioned NWA, but then quickly realized,
but that's like borrowing authority,
(52:05):
you know, figure name that NWA is no more, that the winning NWA back is fine,
but to dump it in the in the middle of the ring right after and create ECW into
their new World Heavyweight Championship.
That was the whole idea. He didn't come up with it until the night before that.
(52:25):
Yeah, but that's when real hardcore ECW audience started believing in a real revolution.
Yeah, it became such 90s championship instead of borrowing something famous from 70s.
Does that make sense? It was new. It was definitely contrite and unique, and it felt special.
(52:51):
It was a third option.
Yeah yeah and believable option at that yeah and also shortly after ecw went down for real,
that the guys who worked under paul heyman created roh today well not today's
awroh but the original ring of honor at the same building ecw arena younger
(53:16):
guys yeah and it really means how many today's wrestler went through that ROH many many many.
So I think it just has this
historical connection to just like all 90
to late 90s into 2000 in ECW and almost like a sequel to ECW that Ring of Honor
(53:39):
was created in Philadelphia and all these younger generation younger than the
original ECW guys but the young you know know, Brian Danielson,
Cesar Rollins before Cesar Rollins was Cesar Rollins at the,
that Kevin, Kevin Steen, that Kevin Owens was, you know, he was a young 19 year old Kevin Steen.
(54:02):
They all go when you went through ROH and it's just now it's 20 years later,
but I think I, you, you really see the connection there.
And now that today's wrestling fans look at Paul Heyman as just this,
my name is Paul Heyman, wise man.
(54:23):
And also, this is basically the focal point of this bloodline thing.
Roman Reigns is a huge superstar, but you really need wise man Paul Heyman in
there, though. You know what I'm saying?
And Paul Heyman has been in the picture, in the main picture.
It's Brock Lesnar, yeah.
(54:45):
Next big thing. After ECW, you know, we all continued to watch Paul Heyman on television.
He was gone for five, six years, actually, though. You know, Heyman hustle thing.
And Brock Lesnar basically quit WWE for real and tried UFC.
(55:07):
And Paul Heyman wasn't on camera in the UFC television. or anything like that,
but he was actually there.
Then that's when Brock Lesnar published his first book, basically published
with Paul Heyman's writing.
I sent photos from Japan that they didn't wanna borrow photos from WWE,
(55:29):
but the Japanese magazine had a whole bunch of Brock Lesnar's early pictures
from WWE, but it was in Japan.
And then, yeah, I was able to use those photos for Brock Lesnar's books.
Then I asked Paul, what's the next?
Are you ever going to come back to traditional pro wrestling?
(55:49):
He said, of course we will.
It was on the plan that Brock Lesnar needed to be UFC superstar in order to
come back to WWE as an even bigger star. Oh my gosh, they really did it, you know.
Very interesting. Very interesting, huh? So I guess as we've been seeing this,
it's like all these poem and saga. I mean, to this day.
(56:14):
There's a lot to look at. He's offered a lot.
I think so. He's been a huge, huge, huge, undeniable part of the business.
And also, what you see on TV and what you see backstage are not all that different.
Really. he was very good at blending the reality and he perhaps doesn't know
(56:38):
the difference himself well even when he was booking an ecw i i mean it was
he really knew how to tone down the,
things that weren't good in a wrestler and tune
up the highlights you know what i mean he could really he could take talent
and and make them as good as they could be into certain character or the strength
(57:04):
and weaknesses and yeah very good at producing those kinds of wrestlers yes.
So in that he's like a wrestler producer
who doesn't take bumps which he
has done yeah in between but
now that today's audience don't
know that side of Paul you know so much of
(57:27):
this wise man character was Monday today's Monday
Night Raw but that his idea has
always been pretty real you know mm-hmm that's what I'm saying and the one they're
saying like even the during this you know shield era Paul Heyman guy right mm-hmm
yeah I'm a Paul Heyman guy yeah what is for him and guys like not Not on TV,
(57:52):
but the Paul Heyman guy meant guys that would be sitting with Paul Heyman backstage talking wrestling.
Yeah. It really existed.
So, yeah, so I think that this is, like, still, he is still at his peak, you know? Mm-hmm.
(58:13):
Yeah. And, yeah. Very much so.
Much older, much wiser, I think. And looks older now, but he doesn't wear his,
you know, baseball cap or his ponytail or anything like that.
He wears his expensive suit and ties, but basically same guy.
I thought my last image i have of him is from this weekend he was involved in that roman reigns and,
(58:39):
whomever else was involved but i had
the image of him he was holding both the wwe championship
belts on his shoulder so yeah
to give you an idea of how influential this
man is that's a pretty simple image to
to be on top of the game even now after all these
years more than 30 years yeah and
(59:00):
he's really like that yeah so yeah
that's i really want to share you know
my experience with paul hammer this week very good all right so if and you know
if if people are interested in this i really recommend checking out that movie
beyond the mat yeah he's in it a lot And also like a Bailey, Bailey legal.
(59:25):
Yes. Which you were there for as well. Yeah. Yeah.
And Wrestle Palooza or the early ECW pay-per-views that they were so creative. Yeah.
The ones in Dayton, Ohio. What was the name of it? Heat Wave.
Yeah. Hayabusa and Jinsei Shinzaki came in and worked with Sabu and Rob Van Dam.
(59:48):
Yeah. Didn't you mention one time? they actually rode together to the show four
of them from Michigan because they drove,
they didn't fly wow but
those are ECW was the only company that
wanted to bring in Hayabusa and Jinsei Shinzaki as they are and put them against
(01:00:10):
Sabu and Rob Vandam well that's a guaranteed very creative match kind of like
a dream match yeah I think so Paul's
always been like that because they're producing matches he won't watch.
Exactly. So he's still a number one fan kind of thing. I feel like he's very connected.
(01:00:31):
I think so. So if people have questions or comments or anything like that,
how can we reach you online?
On Twitter at Fumihikodayo F-U-M-I-H-I-K-O-D-A-Y-O Fumihikodayo or just FumiSite
on Facebook. Please message me first.
And on Twitter, I'm at Justin M. Nipper, K-N-I-P-P-E-R.
(01:00:52):
That's it for this week. Until next time. So long from Tokyo.
Music.
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