July 25, 2024 • 19 mins
Join this episode as Fumi Saito chats with Justin Knipper about his recent chanko nabe lunch with shoot wrestling legend Shigeo "Yuko" Miyato. Delve into the fascinating discussion about the crossover between professional wrestling and mixed martial arts, and hear about the unique experiences of training sessions, the art of wrestling, and the camaraderie shared over traditional Chanko meals.
Fumi & Justin explore the rich history and influence of iconic figures like Billy Robinson, Carl Gotch, and the Gracie family. Discover the impact of key matches and events, such as the epic encounters between Nobuhiko Takada, Rickson Gracie, and Masakatsu Funaki, that shaped the landscape of MMA and pro wrestling.
Gain insights into the evolution of wrestling styles, the influence of international athletes, and the intertwining paths of wrestling and MMA. Reflect on the legacy of legends like Hiroshi Tanahashi and John Cena, and their roles in the ever-evolving world of sports entertainment.
Whether you're a fan of the technical aspects of wrestling or intrigued by the cultural and historical context of MMA, this episode offers a comprehensive look at the dynamic interplay between these two thrilling worlds.
(Recorded September 13th 2021)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Music.
Catch can be at his own class and then you know he
you know asked me to come over for saturday and we'll have junko
(00:27):
lunch after and it's okay i'll be there and then
i didn't work out i showed up and sat there watch the
practice translate or something oh no i love watching there you know like actual
wrestling and how to escape and how to be you know put weight on somebody or
you know it's kind of leverage moves and all these things i i really enjoy it
(00:48):
you know oh that's great yeah Then also right after the practice,
you know, we'll have like a real dojo type Chanko.
And Miyato is a great cook.
And we sat another two hours just talking wrestling over lunch.
I'd really love to try his Chanko someday.
I've seen so many pictures, advertisements, the Chanko night at the hall or at the dojo.
(01:11):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, and then also we can sat around and talk about Billy Robinson,
Carl Gotch, UWF and whatnot.
Yes. Good time. Yeah.
I was just, I just finished the Hicks and Gracie book and I was,
you know, I saw Miyato-san there with, you know, he's ringside.
(01:32):
He's the second of a lot of those fights with Hicks and Gracie.
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. He was right there.
Every, every single UWF fight. Yeah. He actually worked underneath.
So he always had his own match with UWF and UWFI, you know, but he was a little
bit more famous being second, you know, right there, right there,
always, you know, and then also,
(01:54):
unlike other, you know, traditional pro wrestling match, you know, in UWF environment,
those second thing guys will be really, you know, giving advice and really vocal,
you know, get this arm, get this leg, this kind of like a boxing match,
you know what I'm saying?
And it gives very special MMH feeling you know I think it's a it's a great thing
(02:14):
for if it's done right for pro wrestling especially if there's no crowd I think
that could help you know yeah help with energy even with crowd too because people
can hear you know like giving like a really.
Seriously shoot advice you know,
Yeah, step back, step in, step back, you know, get on him, legs open, this, that.
(02:35):
The Miyato is like, for him, it's so serious, you know?
That's how UFC was last year without the crowds. It actually worked very well, I thought.
And you can hear them, huh? You hear everything, and you hear the impact of all the moves, too.
Okay, there's a DVD from, you know, you and I talked about 1976,
(02:56):
Anthony Inoki against Muhammad Ali fight, our last episode.
There's a DVD, four lines, all 15 rounds of Inoki against Muhammad Ali.
Really? Yeah, DVD's out.
You should listen to Ali's second. I mean, they are screaming like he will get
killed or something. Be careful.
(03:17):
It's not trusting wrestling people. I see.
Oh, guys, very interesting. Just listen to those guys.
Yeah. And Muhammad Ali himself arguing back, I'm fighting. Shut up.
And Gene LaBelle is in the ring too. Oh, Gene LaBelle. Yeah.
He's a policeman. You know, anything goes wrong, but he's going to get in,
(03:39):
in right in the middle and just divide those two up. And he's tough guy. Right.
And, uh, it was interesting. And Korgach himself in Inoki's corner, giving advice.
I mean, just coolest thing ever. It could be a movie. It could be a fictional
movie. Just recreation.
Yeah. And, and, and, and back then he was, like, uh, the critics and the regular real newspaper, TV,
(04:02):
even the sports news said it was like a rip off the boring and the boredom and
because they didn't, nobody had eyes for real MMA,
you know, that, that that's, what's going to happen.
If wrestling box or far, you know, actually fought pretty much.
Yeah. And then try to avoid each other.
(04:24):
And get something in it and that's what's going to happen then this they didn't come up with very.
Equal equally divided rules i mean
there's no equal you know because one's gonna box and one's gonna wrestle and
boxers don't want you to wrestle and wrestlers don't want
your box you know you know what i'm saying and that's the but that's the uh
for the fans that's something that they they need
(04:46):
something more than just a technique fight like
a jiu jitsu fight couldn't do is not going
to do anything for a crowd they need some kind of styles class because
we all want to know what's going to happen and the Gracie people
ended up laying on the back on their back most of
the time oh my gosh I've been reading this
there's an English like three book kind of series this guy wrote about the history
(05:08):
of Brazilian jiu-jitsu from you know 1800s until now it's it's got all the newspapers
it's really really makes the Gracie Elio Gracie I really lost so much respect
for him And coming up as a Gracie Jiu-Jitsu person,
it's like losing the kind of your religious belief.
It's really like, ooh. I mean, he's not a good person.
(05:29):
Konde Koma, you know, Mitsuo Maeda, who actually had a Jiu-Jitsu fight in Brazil
against Elio Gracie, you know.
But the term Jiu-Jitsu is Japanese word, you know.
It was just them trying to rebrand Judo.
I suppose. pause but the judo came
(05:51):
after jujitsu you know but
the gracie say that that jujitsu and
japanese judo are weak and and
what they did was more realistic that was the
idea a lot of people and and the other
the other situation i think and it's not addressed enough is that
you know if we fast forward to the 90s anjo and
(06:12):
hicks and gracie okay we know what happened but alio
gracie and carlos carlson gracie they would
do the same thing they were famous for that in brazil they would go
to people's dojos or call people out in the news and really
really trash them pro wrestling style and you
know that's how because jiu-jitsu wasn't popular in
1950s 1940s so they
(06:35):
were this was an elio gracie was
an aggressive marketing guy he was trying to get this name of
brazilian jiu-jitsu it's different it's more
focused on grappling and it's more it's for
self-defense it's more effective and rich and famous
celebrities do it and it's just not
judo it's better than judo and that's what he was trying to pitch but when you
(06:56):
read the full story there's just a lot more to it and anytime that the graces
would agree to these fights they would have these crazy special rules that you
don't see in any other fights and it's not something that developed into anything
it's It's just the family's,
you know, way of defending this philosophy. Oh, yeah. Total advantage.
(07:17):
And it's funny because, you know, with the Kimura and Elio Gracie things happened
in the 50s, and then it almost kind of repeated itself at pride with Gracie and Sakuraba.
The Japan versus Brazil, different philosophies fighting against each other.
And the idea of the people agreeing, having to agree to change the rules for
(07:38):
the Gracie is when, if you look back 20 years, and you can see how things developed,
it's more like, oh man, it's not what...
I don't know I have complex feelings about it I don't know how I feel completely
oh very much so and also over here
in Japan the interpretation and like a perception of Hickson Gracie and,
(08:00):
Horio what's the other one from UFC winner original UFC winner Hoist,
Hoist younger brother Hoist and Hickson older brother
those are like two different schools that's how we perceive in Japan it's true
it's true actually yeah it's true it's two different in business now but it's
like in if it's a real martial arts and you grew up you know they grew up together
(08:24):
and in the martial arts war they'd say you need you know you will have the brotherhood.
But those are like two different marketing, you know, the way you mark,
you know, to do the marketing on Hickson Gracie and the way you marketed Hoyce
is two different business or something.
I'm actually, I belong to Henzo Gracie in New York and that's a different.
(08:45):
Okay. Henzo. That's East coast.
Henzo was different. He has his, he, he was really good.
You know, he was in rings and then pride and he went and tried to.
Smaller, smaller though. Yeah. Smaller, but he didn't argue about the rules
as much. It wasn't as much of production. He would go in and fight and lose.
(09:07):
Right, right. That's what it was. Oh, for Hickson, you know,
the two very high-profile Nobuhiko Takada matches at Tokyo Dome two years in
a row, in 1997 and 1998, big profile.
Then after that, he had another Tokyo Dome match against Masakatsu Funaki,
the head honcho of Pancrase at the time.
And he beat hinaki and it just hickson really
(09:30):
really proved himself to
be very something special and hickson gracie
against sakura but never happened so it's like oh wow
right he talked about that very a lot in the book he
talked about that a lot in the book they offered him five million dollars yeah
the he said the main reason was his son died
that he he he went through a completely hickson's
(09:54):
son hickson's son had an overdose he like ran away
to new york and he overdosed on heroin and it was really bad very
very sad too because hoxson his
name was hoxson he was training okay he's maybe 20 or 21 so they said and it
really it changed his life and he actually stopped competing i don't think he's
competed ever ever since the funaki fight funaki fight right that's that's right
(10:17):
that's right well if he didn't fight in japan he wouldn't fight in America, so...
He puts on tournaments.
Like, I competed in one of his tournaments in Japan years ago.
Hickson Gracie Cup or something.
But it's, like you said, it's not associated... It's Hickson's.
What is it? Hickson Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. Yeah, his philosophy.
(10:38):
It's not Gracie Jiu-Jitsu by Horio or other older brothers or uncles.
He's affiliated with AXIS. AXIS Jiu-Jitsu in Japan is the Hickson's school.
Oh, it's so complicated.
Somebody tried to draw this family tree map, and they gave up.
Yeah. Well, there's a lot of, not bullshit, but there's a lot more going on.
(11:04):
And pro wrestling is such a big part of it too.
Pro wrestling has always been a part of it. Of course. You want to beat famous wrestlers.
Oh yeah. But they were the only ones that people wanted to see.
People really didn't want to see a jiu-jitsu match with the gi and bad judo.
No, no. It's a mixed martial arts. Curiosity.
Curiosity. Yeah. And there was something that developed, you know, telecatch?
(11:24):
It's Brazilian pro wrestling. It was kind of like lucha with British wrestling.
They had their own style.
It's pretty much too far away from me. Yeah, I'm just, it's very hard to even
find on YouTube, but I'm just reading about it in these books.
But it was all connected with the Gracie. They were doing pro wrestling.
From a wrestling community standpoint, you know, that these early MMA.
(11:49):
Including Gracie school of wrestling, or Jiu-Jitsu, they really stole a lot of wrestling fans.
And a lot of the wrestling fans in the late 90s, into the millennium,
they didn't come back to wrestling.
You know what I'm saying? They stole wrestling fans because even very loyal
wrestling fans eyes, you know, ah, if it was real, it would look like this.
(12:14):
They did a better job at selling that kind of reality commodity to people.
But the issue is that it's about 95% real in ways.
But MMA is not just about Jiu-Jitsu and Brazilian.
(12:36):
Oh, it's different now. of it it's you know i'm
so glad there was you know that like people like federer emilienko
you know from russia go you know georgia or
or you had milk or crack up
from what's what's the croatia yeah croatia
it's like all these you know ex-soviet countries you know
not quite from central america south america
(12:59):
but even these these ex-soviet
russian countries that we know nothing thing about and coming to
america it's great you know what i'm saying and that makes not just japan and
and and in brazilian but the russians and european and makes more international
you know that's the really sad part about how the pro wrestling developed in
(13:23):
north america is because.
Russia iran yeah these places are massive for mma right now hot just and wrestling
but you know Freestyle wrestling and Greco-Roman wrestling.
Yeah. They have some of the best athletes in the world representing them too.
Khabib, Khabib from UFC.
The guy is a mega... 28 million people watched his last fight last year in Russia.
(13:48):
Yeah. But those are completely MMA fans from Russian population. Sure, yeah.
It doesn't have any link to wrestling. But that's the thing that I think it should...
The roots caused the roots in politics of the day caused these things not to
(14:08):
be pro wrestling and other cultures not to mix but I think somehow,
it's going to develop eventually I don't know how it's going to develop but I think it's,
to survive i think it's going to be i mean how it's going to develop what
do you mean like how making an ink with the pro wrestling business i think
develop the i mean the the style of the content is it
going to be more realistic or less realistic if it's on a scale is it going
(14:31):
to be more like you know well if mma becomes you know less realistic you know
it's nothing to watch then i mean i'd rather much rather stick with what i like
which is pro wrestling you know yeah,
I just want I'm very curious about somebody who's 21 years old today because
that means it's a two different genre two different genre it's like a boxing
(14:55):
I think I think there are a lot of ties to to what I like in pro wrestling to,
the like especially in the 90s in Japan and do you like MMA element in pro wrestling
of course I really absolutely and I feel personally and it's kind of,
(15:16):
I just feel like if you... You know, I really don't anymore.
You know, it was... That's what, you know, made...
Created the dark age of Japanese pro wrestling, really.
That's in Japan, though. It never hit you. I can only talk about that from here.
And you're right. It was the style.
It was the style for the world.
(15:36):
You know, people like Nobuhiko Takada, the king of UWFI.
It was the closest thing to what MMA would develop years later.
He was the most realistic pro wrestler and the best at it. They have this Hickson-Gracy
(15:57):
match twice get beat fairly easily.
And the founder of Pancrash, Masakatsu Funaki,
in a different promotion, created a company was formed just so they can produce
this match, Funaki against Hickson-Gracy,
not under pride rules or K-1 rules.
(16:19):
Was they created another company just so they can produce this Masakatsu Funaki
against Hickson Gracie Machia at the Tokyo Dome.
Sure enough, Funaki loses.
It was like the beginning of the end for this wrestling myth at the end of the century.
It took the wrestling industry 10 years or so to recover from that damage.
(16:44):
Really. And the style that we see, if you take New Japan, It's pretty far away
from that. It's more like the Junior Heavyweight style.
It's a star-driven, star-powered entertainment, star-powered industry.
That's right. Yeah, because you need a star, a big star, that people buy tickets for.
And we pretty much had to wait until the rise of people like Hiroshita Nahashi
(17:09):
and Shinsuke Nakamura to come up.
Yeah, the superstars. yeah yeah the
new new generation superstar of 2000
you know different looks different style
already 2021 that's right
and tiroshi tanahashi in his 40s now you know all of a sudden just like john
(17:30):
cena you know like john cena in his last summer slam match for the first time
looked at him he's like wow he's a middle-aged john cena we're watching you
know what i'm saying yeah john John Sr.
With his baseball cap and a t-shirt and matching wristband and all these things.
He was a young superstar, right?
And the top of his hair is missing a little bit. And now we're watching 44-year-old
(17:54):
John Sr. Oh my gosh, time flies.
And Tanahashi is also 44. And is still main eventing pretty regularly this year.
Oh, because he works like Shawn Michaels in his A-game day. Yeah.
Pretty emotional match he had recently with Kota Ibushi. I saw there was a lot of tears.
(18:14):
Oh, yeah, yeah, that too. Yeah, and then also this past Tokyo Dome,
the single title match against Shingo Takagi.
Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. It was really, really, like, really Shawn Michaels,
Triple H type wrestling match.
Yeah. He had a match in Los Angeles last month too that was really good. Him and Lance Archer.
(18:37):
Yeah, I think, you know, the sea more like young legend type you know that hiroshi
tanahashi or minoru suzuki or satoshi kojima for that matter these and and and
the yuji nagata those veterans are being sent to america,
while kota ibushi the shingo takagi that one night or the hiromu takahashi these
(19:02):
guys are main event in today's new japan you know what i'm saying yeah and i'm
not saying tanahashi's old or you know nagata kojima minoru suzuki a little
bit older but they can still go right but they were,
that for the market in america that they can still main event out there you
know so there's two separate groups a little bit for new japan roster right
(19:25):
now i would even say three with
whoever they got in the Los Angeles-based area, the Rocky Romero crew.
Right, but Yuji Nagata would be in there. And then.
Music.
Catch can be at his own class and then you know he
you know asked me to come over for saturday and we'll have junko
(00:27):
lunch after and it's okay i'll be there and then
i didn't work out i showed up and sat there watch the
practice translate or something oh no i love watching there you know like actual
wrestling and how to escape and how to be you know put weight on somebody or
you know it's kind of leverage moves and all these things i i really enjoy it
(00:48):
you know oh that's great yeah Then also right after the practice,
you know, we'll have like a real dojo type Chanko.
And Miyato is a great cook.
And we sat another two hours just talking wrestling over lunch.
I'd really love to try his Chanko someday.
I've seen so many pictures, advertisements, the Chanko night at the hall or at the dojo.
(01:11):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, and then also we can sat around and talk about Billy Robinson,
Carl Gotch, UWF and whatnot.
Yes. Good time. Yeah.
I was just, I just finished the Hicks and Gracie book and I was,
you know, I saw Miyato-san there with, you know, he's ringside.
(01:32):
He's the second of a lot of those fights with Hicks and Gracie.
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. He was right there.
Every, every single UWF fight. Yeah. He actually worked underneath.
So he always had his own match with UWF and UWFI, you know, but he was a little
bit more famous being second, you know, right there, right there,
always, you know, and then also,
(01:54):
unlike other, you know, traditional pro wrestling match, you know, in UWF environment,
those second thing guys will be really, you know, giving advice and really vocal,
you know, get this arm, get this leg, this kind of like a boxing match,
you know what I'm saying?
And it gives very special MMH feeling you know I think it's a it's a great thing
(02:14):
for if it's done right for pro wrestling especially if there's no crowd I think
that could help you know yeah help with energy even with crowd too because people
can hear you know like giving like a really.
Seriously shoot advice you know,
Yeah, step back, step in, step back, you know, get on him, legs open, this, that.
(02:35):
The Miyato is like, for him, it's so serious, you know?
That's how UFC was last year without the crowds. It actually worked very well, I thought.
And you can hear them, huh? You hear everything, and you hear the impact of all the moves, too.
Okay, there's a DVD from, you know, you and I talked about 1976,
(02:56):
Anthony Inoki against Muhammad Ali fight, our last episode.
There's a DVD, four lines, all 15 rounds of Inoki against Muhammad Ali.
Really? Yeah, DVD's out.
You should listen to Ali's second. I mean, they are screaming like he will get
killed or something. Be careful.
(03:17):
It's not trusting wrestling people. I see.
Oh, guys, very interesting. Just listen to those guys.
Yeah. And Muhammad Ali himself arguing back, I'm fighting. Shut up.
And Gene LaBelle is in the ring too. Oh, Gene LaBelle. Yeah.
He's a policeman. You know, anything goes wrong, but he's going to get in,
(03:39):
in right in the middle and just divide those two up. And he's tough guy. Right.
And, uh, it was interesting. And Korgach himself in Inoki's corner, giving advice.
I mean, just coolest thing ever. It could be a movie. It could be a fictional
movie. Just recreation.
Yeah. And, and, and, and back then he was, like, uh, the critics and the regular real newspaper, TV,
(04:02):
even the sports news said it was like a rip off the boring and the boredom and
because they didn't, nobody had eyes for real MMA,
you know, that, that that's, what's going to happen.
If wrestling box or far, you know, actually fought pretty much.
Yeah. And then try to avoid each other.
(04:24):
And get something in it and that's what's going to happen then this they didn't come up with very.
Equal equally divided rules i mean
there's no equal you know because one's gonna box and one's gonna wrestle and
boxers don't want you to wrestle and wrestlers don't want
your box you know you know what i'm saying and that's the but that's the uh
for the fans that's something that they they need
(04:46):
something more than just a technique fight like
a jiu jitsu fight couldn't do is not going
to do anything for a crowd they need some kind of styles class because
we all want to know what's going to happen and the Gracie people
ended up laying on the back on their back most of
the time oh my gosh I've been reading this
there's an English like three book kind of series this guy wrote about the history
(05:08):
of Brazilian jiu-jitsu from you know 1800s until now it's it's got all the newspapers
it's really really makes the Gracie Elio Gracie I really lost so much respect
for him And coming up as a Gracie Jiu-Jitsu person,
it's like losing the kind of your religious belief.
It's really like, ooh. I mean, he's not a good person.
(05:29):
Konde Koma, you know, Mitsuo Maeda, who actually had a Jiu-Jitsu fight in Brazil
against Elio Gracie, you know.
But the term Jiu-Jitsu is Japanese word, you know.
It was just them trying to rebrand Judo.
I suppose. pause but the judo came
(05:51):
after jujitsu you know but
the gracie say that that jujitsu and
japanese judo are weak and and
what they did was more realistic that was the
idea a lot of people and and the other
the other situation i think and it's not addressed enough is that
you know if we fast forward to the 90s anjo and
(06:12):
hicks and gracie okay we know what happened but alio
gracie and carlos carlson gracie they would
do the same thing they were famous for that in brazil they would go
to people's dojos or call people out in the news and really
really trash them pro wrestling style and you
know that's how because jiu-jitsu wasn't popular in
1950s 1940s so they
(06:35):
were this was an elio gracie was
an aggressive marketing guy he was trying to get this name of
brazilian jiu-jitsu it's different it's more
focused on grappling and it's more it's for
self-defense it's more effective and rich and famous
celebrities do it and it's just not
judo it's better than judo and that's what he was trying to pitch but when you
(06:56):
read the full story there's just a lot more to it and anytime that the graces
would agree to these fights they would have these crazy special rules that you
don't see in any other fights and it's not something that developed into anything
it's It's just the family's,
you know, way of defending this philosophy. Oh, yeah. Total advantage.
(07:17):
And it's funny because, you know, with the Kimura and Elio Gracie things happened
in the 50s, and then it almost kind of repeated itself at pride with Gracie and Sakuraba.
The Japan versus Brazil, different philosophies fighting against each other.
And the idea of the people agreeing, having to agree to change the rules for
(07:38):
the Gracie is when, if you look back 20 years, and you can see how things developed,
it's more like, oh man, it's not what...
I don't know I have complex feelings about it I don't know how I feel completely
oh very much so and also over here
in Japan the interpretation and like a perception of Hickson Gracie and,
(08:00):
Horio what's the other one from UFC winner original UFC winner Hoist,
Hoist younger brother Hoist and Hickson older brother
those are like two different schools that's how we perceive in Japan it's true
it's true actually yeah it's true it's two different in business now but it's
like in if it's a real martial arts and you grew up you know they grew up together
(08:24):
and in the martial arts war they'd say you need you know you will have the brotherhood.
But those are like two different marketing, you know, the way you mark,
you know, to do the marketing on Hickson Gracie and the way you marketed Hoyce
is two different business or something.
I'm actually, I belong to Henzo Gracie in New York and that's a different.
(08:45):
Okay. Henzo. That's East coast.
Henzo was different. He has his, he, he was really good.
You know, he was in rings and then pride and he went and tried to.
Smaller, smaller though. Yeah. Smaller, but he didn't argue about the rules
as much. It wasn't as much of production. He would go in and fight and lose.
(09:07):
Right, right. That's what it was. Oh, for Hickson, you know,
the two very high-profile Nobuhiko Takada matches at Tokyo Dome two years in
a row, in 1997 and 1998, big profile.
Then after that, he had another Tokyo Dome match against Masakatsu Funaki,
the head honcho of Pancrase at the time.
And he beat hinaki and it just hickson really
(09:30):
really proved himself to
be very something special and hickson gracie
against sakura but never happened so it's like oh wow
right he talked about that very a lot in the book he
talked about that a lot in the book they offered him five million dollars yeah
the he said the main reason was his son died
that he he he went through a completely hickson's
(09:54):
son hickson's son had an overdose he like ran away
to new york and he overdosed on heroin and it was really bad very
very sad too because hoxson his
name was hoxson he was training okay he's maybe 20 or 21 so they said and it
really it changed his life and he actually stopped competing i don't think he's
competed ever ever since the funaki fight funaki fight right that's that's right
(10:17):
that's right well if he didn't fight in japan he wouldn't fight in America, so...
He puts on tournaments.
Like, I competed in one of his tournaments in Japan years ago.
Hickson Gracie Cup or something.
But it's, like you said, it's not associated... It's Hickson's.
What is it? Hickson Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. Yeah, his philosophy.
(10:38):
It's not Gracie Jiu-Jitsu by Horio or other older brothers or uncles.
He's affiliated with AXIS. AXIS Jiu-Jitsu in Japan is the Hickson's school.
Oh, it's so complicated.
Somebody tried to draw this family tree map, and they gave up.
Yeah. Well, there's a lot of, not bullshit, but there's a lot more going on.
(11:04):
And pro wrestling is such a big part of it too.
Pro wrestling has always been a part of it. Of course. You want to beat famous wrestlers.
Oh yeah. But they were the only ones that people wanted to see.
People really didn't want to see a jiu-jitsu match with the gi and bad judo.
No, no. It's a mixed martial arts. Curiosity.
Curiosity. Yeah. And there was something that developed, you know, telecatch?
(11:24):
It's Brazilian pro wrestling. It was kind of like lucha with British wrestling.
They had their own style.
It's pretty much too far away from me. Yeah, I'm just, it's very hard to even
find on YouTube, but I'm just reading about it in these books.
But it was all connected with the Gracie. They were doing pro wrestling.
From a wrestling community standpoint, you know, that these early MMA.
(11:49):
Including Gracie school of wrestling, or Jiu-Jitsu, they really stole a lot of wrestling fans.
And a lot of the wrestling fans in the late 90s, into the millennium,
they didn't come back to wrestling.
You know what I'm saying? They stole wrestling fans because even very loyal
wrestling fans eyes, you know, ah, if it was real, it would look like this.
(12:14):
They did a better job at selling that kind of reality commodity to people.
But the issue is that it's about 95% real in ways.
But MMA is not just about Jiu-Jitsu and Brazilian.
(12:36):
Oh, it's different now. of it it's you know i'm
so glad there was you know that like people like federer emilienko
you know from russia go you know georgia or
or you had milk or crack up
from what's what's the croatia yeah croatia
it's like all these you know ex-soviet countries you know
not quite from central america south america
(12:59):
but even these these ex-soviet
russian countries that we know nothing thing about and coming to
america it's great you know what i'm saying and that makes not just japan and
and and in brazilian but the russians and european and makes more international
you know that's the really sad part about how the pro wrestling developed in
(13:23):
north america is because.
Russia iran yeah these places are massive for mma right now hot just and wrestling
but you know Freestyle wrestling and Greco-Roman wrestling.
Yeah. They have some of the best athletes in the world representing them too.
Khabib, Khabib from UFC.
The guy is a mega... 28 million people watched his last fight last year in Russia.
(13:48):
Yeah. But those are completely MMA fans from Russian population. Sure, yeah.
It doesn't have any link to wrestling. But that's the thing that I think it should...
The roots caused the roots in politics of the day caused these things not to
(14:08):
be pro wrestling and other cultures not to mix but I think somehow,
it's going to develop eventually I don't know how it's going to develop but I think it's,
to survive i think it's going to be i mean how it's going to develop what
do you mean like how making an ink with the pro wrestling business i think
develop the i mean the the style of the content is it
going to be more realistic or less realistic if it's on a scale is it going
(14:31):
to be more like you know well if mma becomes you know less realistic you know
it's nothing to watch then i mean i'd rather much rather stick with what i like
which is pro wrestling you know yeah,
I just want I'm very curious about somebody who's 21 years old today because
that means it's a two different genre two different genre it's like a boxing
(14:55):
I think I think there are a lot of ties to to what I like in pro wrestling to,
the like especially in the 90s in Japan and do you like MMA element in pro wrestling
of course I really absolutely and I feel personally and it's kind of,
(15:16):
I just feel like if you... You know, I really don't anymore.
You know, it was... That's what, you know, made...
Created the dark age of Japanese pro wrestling, really.
That's in Japan, though. It never hit you. I can only talk about that from here.
And you're right. It was the style.
It was the style for the world.
(15:36):
You know, people like Nobuhiko Takada, the king of UWFI.
It was the closest thing to what MMA would develop years later.
He was the most realistic pro wrestler and the best at it. They have this Hickson-Gracy
(15:57):
match twice get beat fairly easily.
And the founder of Pancrash, Masakatsu Funaki,
in a different promotion, created a company was formed just so they can produce
this match, Funaki against Hickson-Gracy,
not under pride rules or K-1 rules.
(16:19):
Was they created another company just so they can produce this Masakatsu Funaki
against Hickson Gracie Machia at the Tokyo Dome.
Sure enough, Funaki loses.
It was like the beginning of the end for this wrestling myth at the end of the century.
It took the wrestling industry 10 years or so to recover from that damage.
(16:44):
Really. And the style that we see, if you take New Japan, It's pretty far away
from that. It's more like the Junior Heavyweight style.
It's a star-driven, star-powered entertainment, star-powered industry.
That's right. Yeah, because you need a star, a big star, that people buy tickets for.
And we pretty much had to wait until the rise of people like Hiroshita Nahashi
(17:09):
and Shinsuke Nakamura to come up.
Yeah, the superstars. yeah yeah the
new new generation superstar of 2000
you know different looks different style
already 2021 that's right
and tiroshi tanahashi in his 40s now you know all of a sudden just like john
(17:30):
cena you know like john cena in his last summer slam match for the first time
looked at him he's like wow he's a middle-aged john cena we're watching you
know what i'm saying yeah john John Sr.
With his baseball cap and a t-shirt and matching wristband and all these things.
He was a young superstar, right?
And the top of his hair is missing a little bit. And now we're watching 44-year-old
(17:54):
John Sr. Oh my gosh, time flies.
And Tanahashi is also 44. And is still main eventing pretty regularly this year.
Oh, because he works like Shawn Michaels in his A-game day. Yeah.
Pretty emotional match he had recently with Kota Ibushi. I saw there was a lot of tears.
(18:14):
Oh, yeah, yeah, that too. Yeah, and then also this past Tokyo Dome,
the single title match against Shingo Takagi.
Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. It was really, really, like, really Shawn Michaels,
Triple H type wrestling match.
Yeah. He had a match in Los Angeles last month too that was really good. Him and Lance Archer.
(18:37):
Yeah, I think, you know, the sea more like young legend type you know that hiroshi
tanahashi or minoru suzuki or satoshi kojima for that matter these and and and
the yuji nagata those veterans are being sent to america,
while kota ibushi the shingo takagi that one night or the hiromu takahashi these
(19:02):
guys are main event in today's new japan you know what i'm saying yeah and i'm
not saying tanahashi's old or you know nagata kojima minoru suzuki a little
bit older but they can still go right but they were,
that for the market in america that they can still main event out there you
know so there's two separate groups a little bit for new japan roster right
(19:25):
now i would even say three with
whoever they got in the Los Angeles-based area, the Rocky Romero crew.
Right, but Yuji Nagata would be in there. And then.
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