June 10, 2025 • 63 mins
In this episode of 'Yes, Quit Your Day Job,' host Seven Dunbar speaks with Thomas Crawford, a musician and entrepreneur who shares his journey from local bands to national tours, navigating the complexities of the music industry. They discuss the importance of having a clear vision for one's art, the financial realities of touring, and the role of PR in promoting music. Thomas also talks about his transition to becoming a frontman, the creation of his management company, Darkstream, and his plans to establish the Independent Musicians Guild to support and empower artists. The conversation emphasizes the need for artist development, overcoming imposter syndrome, and building a community for musicians to thrive.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Hey, welcome to Yes, Quit Your Day Job.
I'm Sevan Dunbar.
And today I'm talking with someone who's been on stage with me, backstage with me, behindthe scenes on more projects than I can count.
We're diving into the weird balancing act between corporate structure and creative chaosand how we went from working at Amazon and Tinder to fronting a band, launching his own
(00:25):
music management company and even more.
So let's get into it.
so let's start where all this started.
Do you remember?
Do you remember your first band?
What pulled you into music in the first place?
Well, what pulled me into music, oddly enough, I've been in music pretty much my wholelife.
(00:46):
I started out playing viola when I was in elementary school and, you know, I got into highschool and started like learning to play the bass guitar, loved grunge at the time,
listened to a shit ton of Nirvana and Alice in Chains.
In my very first band ever, I was 17 and it was a Christian punk band called Chapter Nine.
(01:10):
horrible band, but it definitely got me used to starting to understand what being anactual musician was about and having to work with three to four to five other people on
things.
And yeah, that's kind of where it all started way back then in high school.
(01:38):
Yeah, and just kept going from there.
Like after I graduated and I had kids at a very young age, so I was splitting my time withtrying to do bands and music and also just trying to make money to sustain my family.
So I was in a few bands in the Cincinnati area.
(02:01):
I was in a see was a band called Cable Up.
Then it changed to 12 ounce profits.
It left them and then started learning to play guitar.
Was in a band called Crowning Apathy.
Actually the very first band I ever played guitar in was called Catfish Death Syndrome.
(02:25):
So horrible.
Yeah, it literally like never played out.
just like, you know, just learned songs in the basement and I realized that it was not.
going to be a long-standing band joined a band called fluoride spelled f l o o r e y e dthat was kind of a nickname that they come up with because they would get so drunk that
(02:53):
they would be laying on the floor and their eyes would be on the floor so they'd befluoride yeah no no not the stuff in the water and then
Got poached by a band called Crowning Apathy, played with them for about a year or so.
(03:15):
Was in another band in Psycho Set.
That was the last band I was in in Cincinnati playing guitar.
It was kind of like just your standard groove metal type of thing.
like somewhere between a mixture of hardcore and just in your face metal, but notmetalcore, not like weird breakdowns and
(03:37):
dissonant chords all the time and shit like that.
And then I moved out of Cincinnati and started a band called Aries Burning in Ashland,Kentucky.
Did that band for about a year.
And then I just decided like things were just getting way too chaotic and wanted to makesure that I was again, sustaining my family and whatnot.
(04:05):
So I just took a break.
for music and really focused on my career, which as you stated was at Amazon.
I started as a CSA taking phone calls at Huntington, West Virginia.
And I just kept growing within the company and ultimately got to a point where I needed toleave Huntington and go to the headquarters in Seattle.
(04:31):
And yeah, huge change, definitely huge difference where like I, my
job was 10 miles away and it would take me 15 minutes to get there and then go intoSeattle where my job was 25 miles away and would take me an hour to get there.
And shortly after I moved to Seattle, all of my children, they grew up and left the nestand I started getting back into music again and I started a solo project.
(05:07):
called Seraphim.
It ended up like at the time, like I did not see myself as a front man, not as a singer.
So I just wrote instrumental heavy industrial music and was performing shows with like allmy backing tracks that I created and just me playing guitar.
Then I met my I had an Uber driver that his name was Richard and he and I started justtalking about music and
(05:37):
It was totally like a stepbrothers moment where I was like, hey, I've got my own soloindustrial metal project.
Really?
I've got my own solo industrial metal project.
Did we just become best friends?
Type of thing.
And he came and saw one of my shows and we started working together on a lot of music thathe had written under the name Flash Creek.
(06:02):
And...
right like right as that was starting I got poached by Tinder you know and you know leftmy job at Amazon and moved down to Los Angeles and no sooner like literally right as I was
(06:22):
driving down from Seattle got a call from my new boss going hey they're shuttingeverything down so that's when that's when COVID started so
So I had a lot of time just sitting, you know, sitting in my house, not able to goanywhere, not do anything.
And Richard relocated as well.
(06:43):
He moved down to Los Angeles and was like staying in a like a little studio, ADU on theproperty.
And he and I wrote what ended up being our first album with Voice Creek.
And then I started like while I was doing like I was still working.
(07:04):
but doing the Fleischkrieg thing, I was basically taking a lot of the skills that I hadlearned in the corporate environment and applying it to building strategies and executing
on tasks and project plans and things like that.
And was doing that with Fleischkrieg.
And as things started to open, we were playing regional shows and...
(07:30):
you know, we actually, even though we were located in Los Angeles, we didn't play ourfirst LA show for a year after we actually were out playing live and, got a manager, got,
you know, all sorts of representation.
and we ended up on the road with mushroom head, which was amazing.
(07:53):
but by the, or you look like you're about to say some
Yeah, I actually wanted to touch on the mushroom head thing.
you cut your teeth in Ohio and did the kind of local band.
I think a lot of us started there, moved to the West Coast, lot of life changes, andyou're going from essentially van tours to open, you know, now you're on a major national
(08:17):
tour with mushroom head.
Like what hit you the hardest the first time you were really like out on the road likethat?
the difference between those local shows to, you know, now being on a tour with a nationalband.
Well, I think there was a few things.
One, definitely the financial side of it.
So going on tour is very expensive.
(08:42):
I, without any empirical data, just off of my own observations, I want to say thatFleischkrieg was the highest grossing support act for that tour.
You know, we were averaging about $500 a night in merch sales.
you know, on some of these tours, like we were one of those acts, we were a buy-on act, sowe didn't, like we weren't getting paid by venues and guarantees.
(09:07):
All of our money came straight from merch.
When you say buy on like for people that might not know what that means, can you tell us alittle more about that?
Yeah, so buy-on means you give money to a larger act to be able to be on tour with themand be one of their opening bands.
(09:31):
So generally, at least from what I've observed and experienced is these larger acts, have,they're signed with booking agencies and they will put together like they want to do a
tour.
Sometimes they'll do a tour package where it's like them and one other band.
So like, you'll see a lot of these like co-headlining tours or where there'll be like apackage of this is who it is.
(10:01):
They'll put it to their tour manager and tour manager then goes and starts, you know,working to book those shows while also looking for people who might be interested in being
the support acts that open for them.
going on that tour.
So we were one of two buy on support acts.
(10:22):
We were the ones playing the very first, like we were the first band that went on everynight.
So that's what it means for a buy on.
But in those instances, there is no, like there's no compensation coming from venues and,and, you know, talent buyers and things like that.
(10:43):
There's no revenue coming to us from that.
All of our revenue comes strictly from merch.
So I think we're seeing I think we're seeing this a lot more now where it used to be backin the day, especially with like, you not huge like arena bands, but bands that are doing
like, you know, like House of Blues kind of sized venues.
(11:06):
They used to get tour support from the labels used to have a budget for that.
You know, you you sign with a label, put out a new record and then let's get out on tourand there would be a budget for that.
to be for the bands to be able to do that.
And I think now we're not really seeing a lot of tour support from labels, lot of bands,even bigger bands aren't using labels anymore.
(11:28):
And I think they're trying to navigate and figure out, OK, how do we do this?
And I think the buy on kind of came out of that where they go, what if we took up andcoming regional bands, have them pay us to come on tour with us and have essentially
access to our fan base?
(11:48):
And that greases the wheels for the the initial cost, right?
Because right out of the gate, you're paying for the bus driver.
You're paying for the bus.
You're paying for food.
There's a lot of even for the headliner.
There's a lot of external expenses that day one you're in the red a lot.
And so the buy on bands kind of grease the wheels a little bit for that and make it whereit, you know, takes a little bit of that burden away until they're able to get out on tour
(12:18):
because
That's how the national, you know, the the headliners are making their money off merchsales and and you know, from doing those shows as well.
Yeah, well, I think the buy on stuff has been around for a while, particularly like Iknow, like I can't say for certain with the bigger ones, like the the labels, like they
may do, like you say, like a label supported tour, then it's like it's all the same money.
(12:42):
Like it doesn't matter.
But I think when there was still cross labels, you know, like if one, you know, you know,a newer band on a newer label, they have.
funding that they would then go and buy onto something with a package that was goingelsewhere.
Also, I know for a fact that like the Ozfest tours...
(13:05):
to say, feel like that started with Sharon and that was an Ausfest model.
think that's where the, the buy-on concept really kind of came around.
yeah, definitely.
Like, basically all of your second, your second stage, Oz Fest was those were all buy onbands.
Like, and it was, or at least everybody that was, with the exception of like maybe thelast two or three acts that was playing.
(13:36):
like when, when I, the one Oz Fest I went to, it was, Down was the headliner for thesecond stage followed.
prior to that was Hatebreed.
I'm pretty certain those bands didn't buy on, but I've heard stories of like, God forbid,and Lacuna Coil, when they were on Off Fest, they had to spend like 90 grand to buy on for
(13:59):
it.
And he won.
like that could be a good investment because I know with with my band with Human FactorsLab and Seven Factor when we first kind of broke out of being a regional, you know, we
were in the Florida and Georgia and Carolinas and we broke out from there to doing likeour our first national tour was also with Mushroom Head, which is just a weird
(14:19):
coincidence.
And we, you know, we paid a X number of dollars to get on that, but we.
We gained that back.
Like we made our money back in the first week as far as merch sales.
We were getting paid from the venue on that tour.
And then the exposure we got from that, because you got to think of it when you're you'rebuying on, but now you're included.
(14:45):
All the booking is taken care of from you.
You're put on the bill.
You don't have to worry about all that stuff.
You don't have to worry about either DIY bands that are doing it themselves or getting abooking agent to do it.
We were in all the ad mat.
were in like there's some cities we went to where the promoters had taken out likemagazine ads and are and we would, you know, see those and were included in all that.
(15:09):
And there was a couple of radio spots.
I think there may have even been like an MTV kind of spot back back then.
This is like, you know, it's like 2008, 2009.
We were doing this, but it was the kind of thing where there was always almost the stigmaof like, oh, you know, you're
You didn't earn that spot to be on that tour.
You paid for it.
You bought on, you know.
(15:31):
And the thing is, is like, it's not about having the money.
It's if you're if you haven't achieved a certain level of success, you're not even goingto be able to buy on, you know, you're not going to be able to talk to the people to pay
to get on.
It's you work to get to that part.
You build up your fan base.
(15:52):
At the time, you know, it was a lot through regional shows and now there's obviously beena shift to more online, more streaming numbers and things.
But, you know, to just because you bought on it, it was still a very good career move forus.
And I'm I'm sure it was for you, too.
You know, gave us it exposed us to their fan base that would not have heard of usotherwise.
(16:14):
Yeah, and it's also like not even just that like it's not the hey Like when you spend thatmoney You're investing in hey, you're getting in front of those people, but it's also
water like what are you doing after that?
It's not just All right.
I'm gonna buy it and we're gonna go on this amazing tour.
It's like no Why are we going on this amazing tour?
(16:37):
How are we going to capitalize on that and continue?
moving forward?
And I'm sure like, I ended up parting ways with Fleischkrieg at the end of the tour.
You know, it just, the usual created differences, you know, blah, blah, blah.
But like, like, if it was done correctly,
(17:04):
there would have been, it would have been like this list of things that we were planningto do six months after the tour and how we were gonna capitalize on that and how we would
basically keep funneling that momentum.
Sure.
Yeah.
mean, it it when it comes to situations like this, kind of speaking to what you're talkingabout, you get that first tour, even if it's a buy on Europe, you know, you're opening up
(17:29):
for a much larger band.
playing larger venues than you normally would.
You're getting new crowds and new fan bases.
The key thing to do there is you look at your numbers and you look at those cities andthree months, three to six months later, be back in that city.
Right.
You're going to be in a smaller venue.
You know, maybe you're at a three or four hundred venue.
(17:50):
You come back, you're playing the the local dive bar that's 50 to 100 capacity.
But some of those fan.
What?
but you're also getting paid directly.
Yeah, yeah.
So you that's where you come back and you approach other venues or that venue in themarket and go, hey, we were just through there three months ago.
We would love to come to your venue.
(18:11):
Some of those some of those fans from the show you did with the headliner are going tocome see you.
And then you also, you know, you do your your online advertising.
You target those regions.
You target those fans and you target.
Yeah, basically through your advertising, you target that and you look at your streamingnumbers.
(18:34):
You look at Spotify and Apple Music and Amazon.
Are there any other, you know, within the tour routing?
You know, it's like, hey, we played we played Cleveland, we played Columbus, but it lookslike we're getting really good numbers over in Pittsburgh.
Instead of going down to D.C., we should probably kick over on our own tour and hit thosefans as well, because obviously our numbers are showing that.
(18:59):
We have fans there, you know?
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
also like using PR.
So PR done correctly.
A lot of people when they do, at least in my experiences, they'll usually do them for oneoff things of like, hey, we're dropping a single or we just dropped a new video or
(19:19):
whatever.
But you actually have like a year's worth of plans of releases, tours, shows and thingslike that.
and you work in good with a good PR company, like they're working for you 24 seven to helpyou continue that momentum.
Exactly what you're talking about, where you capitalize on, we are going on this tour,we're doing these things, but PR can work to get press.
(19:48):
Like they'll drive ads for local radio stations.
They'll get more like interviews and stuff while you're there that really push it.
and keep and have things scheduled for you as you're going along with it.
And to where they the more that they see that publications, if they keep seeing your namepop up in these things for these various actions that are taking place, then it's going to
(20:16):
they're going to be looking at your name a lot more.
And then they're going to you're going to be showing up in more magazines and more.
online publications and things like that that's going to even continue to drive that.
I feel like the singer for Disturbed and and Slipknot.
feel like their PR teams.
(20:38):
I swear every week I see something in, you know, blabbermouth or something else of like,this is Corey Taylor has really, you know, controversial opinions on flavors of ice cream
or some random thing where you're like, why is anybody even asking him that?
Why do we why?
Why are we?
Why?
Right.
Some of it, yeah, some of it is they've got PR people that are sending those drops andsending those emails and some of it is just they have to be going around and they see,
(21:12):
well, I don't want to say a slow news day.
Like, you know, some of it is just like, hey, we got to pay attention to this.
So when things happen and I've got some filler, I can go and put something in there.
Yeah.
Yeah, in combination of all those things, but it definitely is driven by like, you know,I've, I've spoke with a couple of PR companies and they like, they all tell me the same
(21:38):
thing.
Can I do a single release for you?
A single press release, a single let?
Absolutely.
However, if you really want the biggest bang for your buck, give me your, your plan.
Tell me exactly what you're doing.
What is your schedule for this, this, this, and this?
and you pay them an amount each month and they're really up to their eyeballs in makingsure people know who the hell you are and what you're doing.
(22:05):
And sometimes it may entail what type of ice cream you're eating.
Yeah.
So was there a moment where it all kind of clicked when it comes to the music where youyou're just like, yeah, I'm built for this because you'd mentioned you're you know, you
started off in the local scene.
You have a family.
(22:26):
You're getting into the corporate world and moving to different coasts.
But you're still that you still came back to music if you ever really left even to beginwith, you know, is it?
What was that moment where you're like, yeah, this is it.
I'm built for doing this.
I think, I mean, I've always had that in me.
(22:47):
the, the very first time I ever played a show, I've always had like, it's, I've said itfor decades, getting on stage is like a drug for me.
That is my high.
Getting up on stage and interacting with fans who love what you're doing.
Sometimes even interacting with people that don't love what you're doing.
(23:08):
But that's a whole other thing for.
performance, I could talk an hour on that.
But I think where things really kind of clicked with me and like, hey, there is a way forme to really focus on this side of it, was probably toward the end of when the run, my run
(23:34):
with Fleischkrieg.
You know, like I said, we did get a manager.
So I got into a point, well, when I was still well within Fleishkrieg, where the corporatelife, like I was struggling to get out of bed.
Like it just, I wasn't getting the same joy out of it.
Even though I could do the job really well, I wasn't necessarily happy with it.
(23:57):
But I really loved my skillsets and what I could apply.
So I wanted to get into the music industry and apply my skills to the music industry.
Well, shortly after that, we got a manager and I kind of shared these aspirations that Iwanted with my manager.
(24:18):
He's like, yeah, absolutely.
Like, I'll totally show you the ropes, blah, blah.
We'll get into it.
Sadly though, he didn't, not in a direct way.
And instead, I learned a lot about the music industry in that no one knows what the hellthey're doing.
(24:40):
Like they're all trying to get their buck the best way that they can.
And sadly, I also noticed there's a lot of predators out there, like toward the liketoward my end of my run with Flashcree going on tour with Mushroomhead.
Um, you know, working with producers and PR companies and all of this thing.
(25:05):
Um, I, I will say like, it was very eyeopening the amount of predators that there are.
Like when I noticed we were on tour.
like, like I said, we were in my opinion, the highest grossing support act for that tour.
But we like, when it was all said and done, we were in the red, like I was borrowing moneyto get back home.
(25:29):
And yeah, like and I still owed like our tour manager.
I still owed him like a good third of his salary and was borrowing and trading things topay those things off.
And honestly, I think that's another reason why I left FlashCrew was I was just burned outfrom the financial side of it.
(25:49):
But like a predatory practice that I absolutely cannot stand is merch cuts at venues likethere like
of controversy about that.
Absolutely.
And I will say we were fortunate that not many venues did that to us.
Of the 19 shows that we played, there was three venues that had their handout for theirpercentage.
(26:16):
15 percent of the money that you've worked your ass off for and you're trying to you'retrying to get into your gas tank, it definitely hurt.
And when I got home.
margins on shirts as it is, you know, you're you're paying five to eight dollars a shirt.
(26:38):
You know, you don't you want to treat your fans right.
So you don't want to sell shirts for 50 bucks.
Right.
So you find what's a good place there and you're making just enough to get to the nextvenue.
And then the merch cuts with the, you know, certain promoters and venues, they got theirhand out wanting one their piece of it.
(26:59):
Yeah, exactly.
when I got back home, like the whole financial thing's definitely like it hit hard, but Irealized what I come to realize about the music industry is one, everyone is out to try to
make money however they can, the easiest way that they can.
(27:22):
And sometimes
their methods of doing that is being predatory against creatives who aren't necessarily asgood with money or they get suckered into, like they know how to focus and groom you based
off of your hopes and dreams and they know, and yeah, hey, can really, your stuff is soamazing.
(27:46):
I can take you really, really far.
It's just gonna cost five figures to make it happen.
They use that your passion against you because I mean, lot of us are so passionate wherewe we don't have the money, but we will come up with the money, right?
Well, all the band members will chip in.
You'll get another job.
You'll take out a loan.
(28:07):
You'll you know, like
We've all watched the Leah Remini things about Scientology and how those people werespending hundreds of thousands of dollars on things.
it's a similar vibe.
So is this what inspired you to start your own management company again?
Like tell us a little bit about Darkstream and stuff.
(28:28):
So a little bit, was a little bit of that as well as, so you kind of ask like, you know,what was it like going from that local band to the, know, you're doing bigger shows and
stuff like that.
And a lot of people, like they always refer to it as local band versus national act andthings like that.
And what I realized, it's not that it's about professional versus amateur.
(28:52):
What it was, was I learned how to be a professional.
and I would go and I would see all these things that, you know, we, fly screen there, ourvery first tour ever was our own headlining tour that we did all our booking for and all
of that.
again, we, lost a crap ton of money, but we were playing, we were the headliner and we hada lot of local support and we kept noticing certain behaviors of the local bands that were
(29:22):
supporting us.
And.
And again, like at the end of the mushroom head tour is when I come to realization, theother part is that there is no, like there is no science to the music industry and
everyone, no one knows what the hell they're doing.
They just know their particular niche, figure out a way to make money from it and, and goout from there.
(29:46):
And I, and I basically was like, you know what?
I'm going to start my own.
And another reason that I decided to start my own was
One of so when I went on that tour, we got to play Cincinnati, my hometown, and the dreamvenue I always wanted to be with, let alone opening for one of my most influential bands
to my music.
(30:07):
Like I was a huge mushroomhead fan for 20 years.
So that was a dream come true, and I got to see some old friends from the old since themusic since the metal scene.
And one of my friends.
from back then on, you he reached out on Facebook and he was asking for feedback on a songand I was talking to him.
(30:29):
I was like, hey man, like, tell me like the vision that you have for like, tell me thatlike you want feedback on this song, but I want to know the vision for your band.
He's like, well, you know, you think we'll eventually like we'll play some shows.
And I was like, no, no, no, no, no.
Like not next steps.
What is your ultimate vision for this band?
(30:49):
He's like, well, I really don't know.
And I'm like, that's when it clicked with me.
Hey, what a lot of it is, is people are missing long term vision.
They're missing a mission statement or a brand North star for their artists.
And they're missing how to appropriately work backwards from that to understand where theyare and to create milestones and goals and.
(31:18):
really focus on on those things.
And I was like, I so honestly, between a combination of that, and my observations, this iswhen I decided I'm going to go and do this.
And I call it darkstream music management.
And even then, like, as I started that, I started coming to the realization that what I'mdoing isn't as much management as it is development.
(31:42):
And
I kind of learned that there's a threshold, like a manager is there when you already havesomething, you're already well established and they just need someone to help with the
heavy lifting or organizing all the chaos that they've got going on, but they're alreadywell established.
Yeah, you get your music and everything to a point where when you can't handle it yourown, that's when you bring in a manager.
(32:10):
know, I have people hit me up all the time and say, can you get me a manager?
Can you get me a manager?
And my first question is always, why do you want a manager?
what, you know, and there's a lot of misconceptions and they, I hear a lot, oh, well, if Iget a manager, then I'll make it.
I'll get, you know, I need
I want to be famous and I want to be rich.
(32:31):
So get me a manager because they equate getting a manager or getting signed to a label aswinning the lottery.
it's, you really need to have an understanding of not just what a manager does, but whenare you ready for that step?
Yep.
Yeah.
And so what I came to in my own observations and I've kind of set a threshold on, allright, once a band has hit this point, they probably need a manager.
(33:01):
If they've not hit this point, they need development.
And I would say actually 100 % of my work right now with Darkstream is development.
But for me, that threshold is, is this artist...
making at least five grand a month from solely their art, their music, whatever, be itfrom merch sales, be it from streaming, be it from playing shows, whatever the case may
(33:27):
be, if they are making at least five grand a month on their own from this, then they needa manager.
If they aren't, they need development in figuring out how they are organized in a way thatthey're making money and they're able to sustain a living in music.
And so the majority of the people, if not all of them, they're in development.
(33:50):
And again, the way that I start is what is your vision?
Where ultimately, where do you want to be?
Like as it relates to this project, your art, your music, where do you see yourself in 20years?
Where do you want to see yourself in 20 years?
And then when we establish that vision, then we work backwards from that and go, okay.
(34:15):
Well, in order to get that, you have to be here first.
In order to be here, you have to be here first and just work backwards until where theyare today and then establish a set of goals for a year.
Say, all right, one year from now, we're going to, we're going to do these things.
We're going to get, you know, we're going to release this many songs.
(34:36):
We're going to have this many streams, this many subscribers, followers, whatever.
We're making this amount of money.
setting those goals and then after that once I've established a year then I break it downinto okay what are we going to do for the next three months and really focus on just three
months because what a lot of people will find is they can do a lot in three months thatthey never thought possible to be done in a year.
(35:04):
If you're if if you have the organization, which I, you know, having worked with you onnumerous projects, I it's something that you excel at, for sure.
No pun intended.
But yeah, there's a lot to be said, especially if you're working with somebody who has thesame vision as you do and you you you take action, but you do everything you do is with
(35:28):
intent towards that common goal.
You can get a lot more done than if you're just like
man, it's 2 a.m.
Maybe I post a picture of my dinner onto our band page so that we have some engagement.
know, it's yeah, to your point, if you do things really with intent, you can get a lotdone in a short amount of time.
(35:49):
Yeah, well that and also that vision becomes your North Star for everything that you do.
whenever you come up, because what often happens is people will, they'll be givenopportunities.
They'll like, hey, do you want to open up for this band next month?
Or do you want to go and do this TV show or whatever?
(36:11):
And it sounds awesome and amazing.
And it sounds like it's like the next level or you're getting somewhere.
But before you say yes, you go, how does this fit the long term vision?
Is this in line with what we're wanting to do?
Is this line with our brand?
If the answer is no, then you politely decline because all you're doing is you're takingenergy away from that ultimate vision.
(36:40):
And if it and if you find yourself going, no, I really want to do this, then you got toask yourself why.
Like, why do you want to do this, and are you still in line with that vision?
And not to say the vision can't change, but it should be an act of Congress to make thatvision change if you really feel comfortable and set with what you're trying to do.
(37:00):
Yeah, for some reason that reminded me, I saw this interview with a friend of mine who's acomedian, Eric Andre, and he was talking about, I can't remember the exact name of what
show it was or movie, but there was a role that he had turned down and the actor that tookthat went on to win an Oscar.
(37:21):
And they were asking him in this interview, like, do you regret turning that down?
And he was like, you know, or like, why did you turn that down?
was the question and he said, know, I looked at it and at the end of the day, it didn'tjust feel like it fit my brand and I turned it down based off of that and he's like, yeah,
and you know what?
This other actor went and absolutely killed it and got an Oscar and maybe Eric Wood orwould not have gotten an Oscar, right?
(37:49):
But yeah.
like, because in the end, like if he felt it wasn't fitting his brand, then that means hisamount of attention and effort toward that would not have been a hundred percent versus
this person's was.
So like just because somebody won an Oscar on a role that he turned down, would bet amillion dollars that he would not have won an Oscar.
(38:17):
He had done it.
So I mean, nothing against it.
mean, dudes, but he would not have put forth the same effort, the same energy because itwasn't in line.
It's just like someone would go to me like, why would you quit an amazing job, you know,making seriously amazing money?
Well, because my energy wasn't there for it anymore.
(38:39):
I wasn't, it wasn't bringing me the same joy.
And I was doing a disservice to the company and to my team by continuing to, to trudgealong with it.
So.
Yeah.
So my next question, you're so you're now fronting you have your own band, Ista Bus,right?
You were always the guy off to the side playing guitar and now you're you know, you're thefront man.
(39:04):
You're the guy with the mic.
You're front and center.
What made you make that transition?
That's a it's not just a different instrument.
That is a that's a pretty, you know, significant transition into a completely differentrole.
Oh yeah, very different.
I can attest, it's very different.
(39:24):
It was, it's kind of weird how it did and the more I reflect on it, but I've never beenlike, when I was a kid in elementary school, I was in choir and I could sing and I could
do it, but I found more joy in playing an instrument.
And then I moved to a rural area that they,
(39:47):
you know, that they were limited in some of the things.
And something happened in my scheduling from going to elementary school to junior high andmiddle school and whatnot that they didn't put me in choir.
So like I stopped doing the choir thing, but really stuck with the instrument.
And then kind of my vocal skills, like I always like had a like even the first time I gotup on stage and I will say for years going up on stage, there was a level of
(40:16):
nervousness and anxiety going up there, but I loved it.
But again, not all the attention was on me.
I made the attention go to me.
Like the amount of attention I got, I asked for.
But not all the attention was on me.
And as I progressed as a performer, I kept like seeing myself like almost in a competitionwith my singers going, no, I'm going to
(40:44):
make sure people know who I am and I'm going to fight the performance side of it.
But I never felt comfortable singing.
Like it was just weird.
I hadn't done it for years.
Strange thing happened.
I got asked to judge a karaoke competition and I found myself watching all of thesekaraoke professionals who could sing amazing but their performance
(41:14):
was woefully inadequate.
And I asked the director, I was like, hey, can I go into a song?
He's like, sure, absolutely.
And I did it as a learning thing, like, hey, when I say performance, when I say stagepresence, this is what I mean.
(41:36):
And I went up on stage and I sang Pearl Jam's Jeremy.
And I had everybody in that room losing their mind and interacting.
And I was like, huh, this kind of feels interesting.
Shortly after that, some friends of mine, we started going to do karaoke at a local placehere in Los or outside of Las Vegas.
(42:03):
And we started going every week.
And I would go up and sing Tenacious D songs or the theme from the love boat and
I started enjoying it and I was like, you know what?
think I'm gonna start, you know, like I wanna take what I was doing with my solo stuff,instrumental stuff and I wanna turn it to where there's vocals to it.
(42:23):
And I think I wanna have someone else play guitar and only me sing.
And so I started working on that and then someone had gifted me lessons for Melissa Crosswhere I learned about, I, you know, shout out to Melissa Cross, like.
She is a true beast and legend in the vocal academy.
(42:49):
And for those who don't know, she's known for how to correctly teach people to scream anddo vocal fry and things like that without hurting their voice and doing it naturally.
Yeah, she's worked.
mean, she's worked a lot like like Randy from Lamb of God and.
Yep.
(43:09):
Corey Taylor, David Draymond, Maria Brink from In This Moment, like all across the board.
And she got into like in hearing her story, like how she got into it was kind ofinteresting where she didn't do any of that.
Like she was a vocal coach and a vocal instructor.
(43:29):
And she had a producer friend that was like, hey, I've got this kid that he is coughing upblood every time he
comes to do vocal takes, can you come and help him?
Yeah, like literally like he's having problems.
And she was like, I'll come and check it out, but I really don't know.
(43:50):
And then she went and saw the kid in the studio, saw him doing this stuff and sure enough,he's coughing up blood and shit.
And she's like, I don't know how to help you, but I'm going to find out.
And she took it upon herself to ultimately end up learning the science behind.
the techniques that goes into death metal that goes into screaming and all of that stuff.
(44:13):
And she basically became the pioneer in it.
Someone gifted me that her speak, scream course.
And I was like, I just want to get to the screaming part.
I was like, no, I'll be the good guy.
And I'll start at the beginning.
And the speaking one was like, no, we're going to teach you techniques.
(44:36):
Yeah.
things that you're going to do every day.
And we're going to change your mindset of how singing works and we're going to change howyour breathing works and how you recognize these sensations and these feelings and how
they all work together to where it becomes second nature.
So I started doing that and like, literally, mean, literally within a month of me takingthese, these less actually within a week or two, I was going to karaoke.
(45:04):
I'm belting out.
like music of the night.
I'm building out Chris Isaac.
You know, I'm holding notes for 15 seconds and I'm doing this stuff and people are like,holy crap.
I'm like, I think I could do this.
So yeah, so I'm getting into it.
Played my very first show ever singing in front man and I will say there's definitely alot of work to do.
(45:31):
It definitely took me out of my comfort zone, but I'm so excited for it.
Like it's a
completely different challenge that I wasn't prepared for, but I'm so excited for.
That's great.
how is it different like managing like managing other people's careers versus your ownmusic?
(45:54):
I would say it's a little bit different in that managing my own stuff, I kind of know theskill sets and the things, but I think the thing that I lack with mine is what I bring to
other people, which is accountability.
So for me, you know, there's no one holding me accountable to my goals and these things,and I can keep pushing them off and whatever.
(46:18):
But I know what I need to do.
I'll start making out plans and I'll start doing these things and stuff gets done, but Idon't necessarily have that accountability partner to be like with me every week going,
all right, where are you at with this?
Where are we at?
Okay, why are you pushing this out?
And then I think.
need me, just call me up and I'm happy to you don't even have to tell me what the issueis.
(46:39):
I'll just be like, hey, you're fucking up.
Get it together.
I know.
I know.
I'll leave it as a voicemail and you can play it anytime you need that.
I got you, bro.
But so I think helping with others, the with it is as very different as I'm I'm thataccountability person.
(47:03):
Like I'm not there to set their vision.
I'm not there to change their vision.
I'm there to help them realize it.
And then I'm I'm there to help them.
Get to, you know, creating these goals.
you know, reviewing them.
I'm a big metrics guy.
Like I'm going to websites and I'm getting details.
(47:26):
I'm going to sound charts and going, all right, where are we at with followers and streamsand all of this stuff?
And looking at trends and what's happened the last six to eight weeks.
I get to be like, literally it's, hey, I create these templates and these things for you.
(47:46):
Where are you at with this?
Okay, cool.
What you need?
What roadblocks do you have?
And help them work through it.
And again, like even like the artists that I'm working with right now, I don't think anyof them are in the exact genre of music that I work in.
(48:07):
So like they're almost even completely different.
So some I'm learning a little bit more about like, had no idea what shoegaze was.
yeah.
Yeah, no idea.
I'm working with a band from Cincinnati and they're a big doom metal band.
(48:27):
And I'm learning about all these different techniques and producers and artists and stufflike that.
But this but it's the same thing of like I'm developing them in figure.
You know, we've got.
these three months and where they're at with these things and meet with them on a regularbasis to go, okay, where are we at with this?
(48:50):
What do you need?
Do you need contacts for this?
Do you need help figuring out someone to do PR for that?
So I'm there to one, help hold them accountable to the goals that they've set, making surethey're staying true to their vision and helping remove any roadblocks that they're having
getting to that.
(49:10):
nice.
So yeah, that's kind of the big difference there.
And I don't, like in my own stuff, like there's always a potential for like interpersonaldrama or these setbacks and things like that.
With this, I don't have that.
It's, all right, let's, you know, I think I need to have a difficult discussion with thisband member.
(49:35):
Okay, let's talk about it.
What's going on?
a little bit removed from the emotional side of things where you're just more of a, andexactly a neutral third party and an objective voice that's in there to, you know, to, to
give that guidance.
And, know, like you talked about earlier, stay focused on that North star.
(49:57):
Um, if you had to go back and give you your younger self advice, so whether it's rightbefore a
a tour right before like your first corporate gig.
What would you say?
I've thought about this and it's, don't know that it'll necessarily be helpful.
but if I was to ever go back, like if I could go back to, when I was in high school, Iwould tell myself to buy stock and Amazon and Apple like straight up, like I would do
(50:28):
these things, but yeah.
but I would say like, as like a musician and someone getting into the professional worldand stuff like that, I always.
Like they've put a name to it in the last five to ten years, but I always had impostersyndrome So like I myself I did not go to college.
(50:49):
I do not have a degree When I was in high school, I always felt like I'm kind of goodenough like I'm I'm smart and I know I'm gonna graduate with good grades like I wasn't the
most popular kid and you know I had but there was always something where I felt inferiorto what I really was and I I suffered from imposter syndrome
(51:10):
And I would probably go back and go, no, don't accept anything less.
Don't think that you're not good enough.
Because more than likely, the people that you're idolizing or the things that you thinkare completely unattainable are absolutely attainable.
(51:33):
When I was a teenager, if someone had told me I was going to be
traveling the world, managing people from six different countries and teams from 11different countries, and that I would be completely changing policies and procedures and
(51:54):
making a difference in, you know, Fortune 500 companies, I would have said you were fullof shit.
No way.
But I did.
It took, and for me, I felt like it took a lot longer than it should have.
because of myself.
Like I was holding myself back because I didn't think I was good enough.
And one of the things...
(52:15):
they say that imposter syndrome is most prevalent in high performing individuals, right?
So the the people that are like, I'm the best, I'm the greatest, I'm the shit, right?
Those are usually the ones that aren't.
And the ones that are really great are the ones that, you know, they have that impostersyndrome.
(52:35):
think I think with me, my like my biggest fear is that
What happens if they figure out I'm not good enough to have imposter syndrome, right?
Hahaha
Or maybe I should have imposter syndrome.
Right.
Yep.
(52:56):
Well, cool.
I think so.
Quick, like lightning round of some questions just to finish us off here.
Like right off the top of your head, like what what is what's one rule you live by?
always take ownership of my actions and never make excuses.
Love that.
(53:17):
What's one risk that paid off for you?
okay.
So speaking of Amazon and all of that, I was always scared to fly this.
Sorry, this is going to be a little bit longer than a short round.
I was always scared to fly and I always like anytime there was an opportunity, but itrequired me to fly it.
(53:43):
was like, nope.
One time I was, I was a trainer.
And there was an opportunity to take a short term assignment to Costa Rica and help buildtheir training team.
This was back in 2009, like the beginning of 2009.
I applied for it, but I applied for it in, you know, against three or four other sites,probably a total pool of like 20 trainers.
(54:15):
I applied for it and I got it.
Nice.
I got the feedback from like, just FYI, pack your bags and get your passport, you're goingto Costa Rica.
I was like, fuck yeah, I'm going to Costa Rica.
And as soon as I hung up the phone, I was like, shit, I'm going to Costa Rica.
(54:37):
And it's not an island.
No, you're thinking of Puerto Rico.
No.
Costa Rica is very much it is it is not a peninsula.
It's not an island.
The Atlantic and Pacific oceans are on both sides of it, but it's part of Central America.
(54:58):
But the thing was, as I did that, I spent three months lonely as hell, but seeing some ofthe coolest things, experiencing so many cultures, and that completely flipped my mindset
as it related to.
how much I was holding myself back and how much I could do.
And that opened me up to, you know what?
(55:19):
I'm willing to travel by plane to our headquarters.
I'm willing to, you know, go and do these things.
And at the end of it, like, there was one year I was in four different continents.
And I, like, one trip I was literally going to Ireland.
(55:41):
to Italy, to Morocco, to Germany, then to South Africa.
And then like two or three months later, I was going to India and Japan.
And like, you want to experience complete culture shock, but go to India.
(56:07):
It is amazing.
Like I was the one place I was like, got no desire to go there.
I got asked to be the heavy for a work trip to make sure nothing, like I'm a bigintimidating guy and there was a couple of women that were going and they didn't want to
be harassed.
So I went and it was one of the most enriching experiences I ever had.
So definitely that was the one thing like I can equate to me going to Costa Rica andapplying for that job that I thought I had no chance of getting.
(56:37):
I applied for it and I got it and it.
my life completely flipped on its head after that point.
Wow.
What's one thing you're most excited about for 2025?
Now that we're halfway, you know, we're in June already.
We're more than halfway there.
So this isn't formally announced, but we're going to be here in the next week or two.
(57:00):
I so part of the reasons why I started my management company was because I was tired ofpredatory practices against artists and musicians.
And I wanted to appropriately with honesty, honesty and integrity, help develop and growthose people.
you know, these people into this and ultimately eventually make a change in the musicindustry.
(57:24):
After a few discussions with some friends and even a mentor, I have decided to create aindependent music organization called the Independent Musicians Guild.
And it is actually, it's...
very much in the early stages, basically create, it's a membership organization, sothere'll be do's, but creating different experiences and opportunities for independent
(57:54):
musicians around the world to help empower multiple people.
like, don't have to, I don't want to manage a million bands, but I do want to make adifference in a million bands and create this organization where other, it's community.
but it's also education and also providing additional opportunities.
(58:19):
So like at the start, a lot of it's going to be like blogs, podcasts, meetings, thingslike that.
And then once we start getting into the paid tiers, we're going to be creating moretraining, more in-depth available training resources, and then working to get discounts,
(58:40):
get access to members only events.
where we have some famous keynote speakers to come in and talk about different aspectswithin the music industry.
And then ultimately have a higher tier for people who are really committed and are lookingfor things like healthcare, looking for legal insurance, financial planning, and also a
(59:05):
higher tier access to larger...
opportunities within like say PR, booking agencies, stuff like that, getting directoriesto music producers and PR agencies and all the different things that they want to do to be
(59:29):
able to, artist management and development, things to help them elevate and be successfulindependently.
Nice.
Where can people if anybody wants to like check out what you're doing or reach out to youor anything like that, where are some places that they can find you?
(59:50):
I mean, I'm on the usual Facebook, Instagram.
I'm on there quite a bit, but I think it's istibus.tomass is my main handle on Instagram.
But the easiest way to get in touch with me is info at darkstreammusicmanagement.com.
(01:00:10):
That's the email to my artist development and management company.
And yeah.
That's probably the best way to get in touch with me.
Love that.
Anything else you wanted to add or touch on?
no, no, I'm looking forward to seeing all the other things that come with a yes, you canquit your job and I'm really.
(01:00:35):
Yeah, quit your day job and I mean, no, honestly, and yeah, Easter bus.
But no, just looking forward to.
You know, changing the mindsets of artists and musicians and realize that they actuallycan be successful at this and and.
(01:00:56):
the term starving goes away.
I hate the term starving artist, but it's a true thing, but I want to see where that's notthe case.
So maybe that's the North Star vision is the term starving artist is never used everagain.
Well, Thomas, thanks for joining us today, man.
It was great chatting with you.
(01:01:17):
Absolutely, likewise.
All righty.
Hey, welcome to Yes, Quit Your Day Job.
I'm Sevan Dunbar.
And today I'm talking with someone who's been on stage with me, backstage with me, behindthe scenes on more projects than I can count.
We're diving into the weird balancing act between corporate structure and creative chaosand how we went from working at Amazon and Tinder to fronting a band, launching his own
(00:25):
music management company and even more.
So let's get into it.
so let's start where all this started.
Do you remember?
Do you remember your first band?
What pulled you into music in the first place?
Well, what pulled me into music, oddly enough, I've been in music pretty much my wholelife.
(00:46):
I started out playing viola when I was in elementary school and, you know, I got into highschool and started like learning to play the bass guitar, loved grunge at the time,
listened to a shit ton of Nirvana and Alice in Chains.
In my very first band ever, I was 17 and it was a Christian punk band called Chapter Nine.
(01:10):
horrible band, but it definitely got me used to starting to understand what being anactual musician was about and having to work with three to four to five other people on
things.
And yeah, that's kind of where it all started way back then in high school.
(01:38):
Yeah, and just kept going from there.
Like after I graduated and I had kids at a very young age, so I was splitting my time withtrying to do bands and music and also just trying to make money to sustain my family.
So I was in a few bands in the Cincinnati area.
(02:01):
I was in a see was a band called Cable Up.
Then it changed to 12 ounce profits.
It left them and then started learning to play guitar.
Was in a band called Crowning Apathy.
Actually the very first band I ever played guitar in was called Catfish Death Syndrome.
(02:25):
So horrible.
Yeah, it literally like never played out.
just like, you know, just learned songs in the basement and I realized that it was not.
going to be a long-standing band joined a band called fluoride spelled f l o o r e y e dthat was kind of a nickname that they come up with because they would get so drunk that
(02:53):
they would be laying on the floor and their eyes would be on the floor so they'd befluoride yeah no no not the stuff in the water and then
Got poached by a band called Crowning Apathy, played with them for about a year or so.
(03:15):
Was in another band in Psycho Set.
That was the last band I was in in Cincinnati playing guitar.
It was kind of like just your standard groove metal type of thing.
like somewhere between a mixture of hardcore and just in your face metal, but notmetalcore, not like weird breakdowns and
(03:37):
dissonant chords all the time and shit like that.
And then I moved out of Cincinnati and started a band called Aries Burning in Ashland,Kentucky.
Did that band for about a year.
And then I just decided like things were just getting way too chaotic and wanted to makesure that I was again, sustaining my family and whatnot.
(04:05):
So I just took a break.
for music and really focused on my career, which as you stated was at Amazon.
I started as a CSA taking phone calls at Huntington, West Virginia.
And I just kept growing within the company and ultimately got to a point where I needed toleave Huntington and go to the headquarters in Seattle.
(04:31):
And yeah, huge change, definitely huge difference where like I, my
job was 10 miles away and it would take me 15 minutes to get there and then go intoSeattle where my job was 25 miles away and would take me an hour to get there.
And shortly after I moved to Seattle, all of my children, they grew up and left the nestand I started getting back into music again and I started a solo project.
(05:07):
called Seraphim.
It ended up like at the time, like I did not see myself as a front man, not as a singer.
So I just wrote instrumental heavy industrial music and was performing shows with like allmy backing tracks that I created and just me playing guitar.
Then I met my I had an Uber driver that his name was Richard and he and I started justtalking about music and
(05:37):
It was totally like a stepbrothers moment where I was like, hey, I've got my own soloindustrial metal project.
Really?
I've got my own solo industrial metal project.
Did we just become best friends?
Type of thing.
And he came and saw one of my shows and we started working together on a lot of music thathe had written under the name Flash Creek.
(06:02):
And...
right like right as that was starting I got poached by Tinder you know and you know leftmy job at Amazon and moved down to Los Angeles and no sooner like literally right as I was
(06:22):
driving down from Seattle got a call from my new boss going hey they're shuttingeverything down so that's when that's when COVID started so
So I had a lot of time just sitting, you know, sitting in my house, not able to goanywhere, not do anything.
And Richard relocated as well.
(06:43):
He moved down to Los Angeles and was like staying in a like a little studio, ADU on theproperty.
And he and I wrote what ended up being our first album with Voice Creek.
And then I started like while I was doing like I was still working.
(07:04):
but doing the Fleischkrieg thing, I was basically taking a lot of the skills that I hadlearned in the corporate environment and applying it to building strategies and executing
on tasks and project plans and things like that.
And was doing that with Fleischkrieg.
And as things started to open, we were playing regional shows and...
(07:30):
you know, we actually, even though we were located in Los Angeles, we didn't play ourfirst LA show for a year after we actually were out playing live and, got a manager, got,
you know, all sorts of representation.
and we ended up on the road with mushroom head, which was amazing.
(07:53):
but by the, or you look like you're about to say some
Yeah, I actually wanted to touch on the mushroom head thing.
you cut your teeth in Ohio and did the kind of local band.
I think a lot of us started there, moved to the West Coast, lot of life changes, andyou're going from essentially van tours to open, you know, now you're on a major national
(08:17):
tour with mushroom head.
Like what hit you the hardest the first time you were really like out on the road likethat?
the difference between those local shows to, you know, now being on a tour with a nationalband.
Well, I think there was a few things.
One, definitely the financial side of it.
So going on tour is very expensive.
(08:42):
I, without any empirical data, just off of my own observations, I want to say thatFleischkrieg was the highest grossing support act for that tour.
You know, we were averaging about $500 a night in merch sales.
you know, on some of these tours, like we were one of those acts, we were a buy-on act, sowe didn't, like we weren't getting paid by venues and guarantees.
(09:07):
All of our money came straight from merch.
When you say buy on like for people that might not know what that means, can you tell us alittle more about that?
Yeah, so buy-on means you give money to a larger act to be able to be on tour with themand be one of their opening bands.
(09:31):
So generally, at least from what I've observed and experienced is these larger acts, have,they're signed with booking agencies and they will put together like they want to do a
tour.
Sometimes they'll do a tour package where it's like them and one other band.
So like, you'll see a lot of these like co-headlining tours or where there'll be like apackage of this is who it is.
(10:01):
They'll put it to their tour manager and tour manager then goes and starts, you know,working to book those shows while also looking for people who might be interested in being
the support acts that open for them.
going on that tour.
So we were one of two buy on support acts.
(10:22):
We were the ones playing the very first, like we were the first band that went on everynight.
So that's what it means for a buy on.
But in those instances, there is no, like there's no compensation coming from venues and,and, you know, talent buyers and things like that.
(10:43):
There's no revenue coming to us from that.
All of our revenue comes strictly from merch.
So I think we're seeing I think we're seeing this a lot more now where it used to be backin the day, especially with like, you not huge like arena bands, but bands that are doing
like, you know, like House of Blues kind of sized venues.
(11:06):
They used to get tour support from the labels used to have a budget for that.
You know, you you sign with a label, put out a new record and then let's get out on tourand there would be a budget for that.
to be for the bands to be able to do that.
And I think now we're not really seeing a lot of tour support from labels, lot of bands,even bigger bands aren't using labels anymore.
(11:28):
And I think they're trying to navigate and figure out, OK, how do we do this?
And I think the buy on kind of came out of that where they go, what if we took up andcoming regional bands, have them pay us to come on tour with us and have essentially
access to our fan base?
(11:48):
And that greases the wheels for the the initial cost, right?
Because right out of the gate, you're paying for the bus driver.
You're paying for the bus.
You're paying for food.
There's a lot of even for the headliner.
There's a lot of external expenses that day one you're in the red a lot.
And so the buy on bands kind of grease the wheels a little bit for that and make it whereit, you know, takes a little bit of that burden away until they're able to get out on tour
(12:18):
because
That's how the national, you know, the the headliners are making their money off merchsales and and you know, from doing those shows as well.
Yeah, well, I think the buy on stuff has been around for a while, particularly like Iknow, like I can't say for certain with the bigger ones, like the the labels, like they
may do, like you say, like a label supported tour, then it's like it's all the same money.
(12:42):
Like it doesn't matter.
But I think when there was still cross labels, you know, like if one, you know, you know,a newer band on a newer label, they have.
funding that they would then go and buy onto something with a package that was goingelsewhere.
Also, I know for a fact that like the Ozfest tours...
(13:05):
to say, feel like that started with Sharon and that was an Ausfest model.
think that's where the, the buy-on concept really kind of came around.
yeah, definitely.
Like, basically all of your second, your second stage, Oz Fest was those were all buy onbands.
Like, and it was, or at least everybody that was, with the exception of like maybe thelast two or three acts that was playing.
(13:36):
like when, when I, the one Oz Fest I went to, it was, Down was the headliner for thesecond stage followed.
prior to that was Hatebreed.
I'm pretty certain those bands didn't buy on, but I've heard stories of like, God forbid,and Lacuna Coil, when they were on Off Fest, they had to spend like 90 grand to buy on for
(13:59):
it.
And he won.
like that could be a good investment because I know with with my band with Human FactorsLab and Seven Factor when we first kind of broke out of being a regional, you know, we
were in the Florida and Georgia and Carolinas and we broke out from there to doing likeour our first national tour was also with Mushroom Head, which is just a weird
(14:19):
coincidence.
And we, you know, we paid a X number of dollars to get on that, but we.
We gained that back.
Like we made our money back in the first week as far as merch sales.
We were getting paid from the venue on that tour.
And then the exposure we got from that, because you got to think of it when you're you'rebuying on, but now you're included.
(14:45):
All the booking is taken care of from you.
You're put on the bill.
You don't have to worry about all that stuff.
You don't have to worry about either DIY bands that are doing it themselves or getting abooking agent to do it.
We were in all the ad mat.
were in like there's some cities we went to where the promoters had taken out likemagazine ads and are and we would, you know, see those and were included in all that.
(15:09):
And there was a couple of radio spots.
I think there may have even been like an MTV kind of spot back back then.
This is like, you know, it's like 2008, 2009.
We were doing this, but it was the kind of thing where there was always almost the stigmaof like, oh, you know, you're
You didn't earn that spot to be on that tour.
You paid for it.
You bought on, you know.
(15:31):
And the thing is, is like, it's not about having the money.
It's if you're if you haven't achieved a certain level of success, you're not even goingto be able to buy on, you know, you're not going to be able to talk to the people to pay
to get on.
It's you work to get to that part.
You build up your fan base.
(15:52):
At the time, you know, it was a lot through regional shows and now there's obviously beena shift to more online, more streaming numbers and things.
But, you know, to just because you bought on it, it was still a very good career move forus.
And I'm I'm sure it was for you, too.
You know, gave us it exposed us to their fan base that would not have heard of usotherwise.
(16:14):
Yeah, and it's also like not even just that like it's not the hey Like when you spend thatmoney You're investing in hey, you're getting in front of those people, but it's also
water like what are you doing after that?
It's not just All right.
I'm gonna buy it and we're gonna go on this amazing tour.
It's like no Why are we going on this amazing tour?
(16:37):
How are we going to capitalize on that and continue?
moving forward?
And I'm sure like, I ended up parting ways with Fleischkrieg at the end of the tour.
You know, it just, the usual created differences, you know, blah, blah, blah.
But like, like, if it was done correctly,
(17:04):
there would have been, it would have been like this list of things that we were planningto do six months after the tour and how we were gonna capitalize on that and how we would
basically keep funneling that momentum.
Sure.
Yeah.
mean, it it when it comes to situations like this, kind of speaking to what you're talkingabout, you get that first tour, even if it's a buy on Europe, you know, you're opening up
(17:29):
for a much larger band.
playing larger venues than you normally would.
You're getting new crowds and new fan bases.
The key thing to do there is you look at your numbers and you look at those cities andthree months, three to six months later, be back in that city.
Right.
You're going to be in a smaller venue.
You know, maybe you're at a three or four hundred venue.
(17:50):
You come back, you're playing the the local dive bar that's 50 to 100 capacity.
But some of those fan.
What?
but you're also getting paid directly.
Yeah, yeah.
So you that's where you come back and you approach other venues or that venue in themarket and go, hey, we were just through there three months ago.
We would love to come to your venue.
(18:11):
Some of those some of those fans from the show you did with the headliner are going tocome see you.
And then you also, you know, you do your your online advertising.
You target those regions.
You target those fans and you target.
Yeah, basically through your advertising, you target that and you look at your streamingnumbers.
(18:34):
You look at Spotify and Apple Music and Amazon.
Are there any other, you know, within the tour routing?
You know, it's like, hey, we played we played Cleveland, we played Columbus, but it lookslike we're getting really good numbers over in Pittsburgh.
Instead of going down to D.C., we should probably kick over on our own tour and hit thosefans as well, because obviously our numbers are showing that.
(18:59):
We have fans there, you know?
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
also like using PR.
So PR done correctly.
A lot of people when they do, at least in my experiences, they'll usually do them for oneoff things of like, hey, we're dropping a single or we just dropped a new video or
(19:19):
whatever.
But you actually have like a year's worth of plans of releases, tours, shows and thingslike that.
and you work in good with a good PR company, like they're working for you 24 seven to helpyou continue that momentum.
Exactly what you're talking about, where you capitalize on, we are going on this tour,we're doing these things, but PR can work to get press.
(19:48):
Like they'll drive ads for local radio stations.
They'll get more like interviews and stuff while you're there that really push it.
and keep and have things scheduled for you as you're going along with it.
And to where they the more that they see that publications, if they keep seeing your namepop up in these things for these various actions that are taking place, then it's going to
(20:16):
they're going to be looking at your name a lot more.
And then they're going to you're going to be showing up in more magazines and more.
online publications and things like that that's going to even continue to drive that.
I feel like the singer for Disturbed and and Slipknot.
feel like their PR teams.
(20:38):
I swear every week I see something in, you know, blabbermouth or something else of like,this is Corey Taylor has really, you know, controversial opinions on flavors of ice cream
or some random thing where you're like, why is anybody even asking him that?
Why do we why?
Why are we?
Why?
Right.
Some of it, yeah, some of it is they've got PR people that are sending those drops andsending those emails and some of it is just they have to be going around and they see,
(21:12):
well, I don't want to say a slow news day.
Like, you know, some of it is just like, hey, we got to pay attention to this.
So when things happen and I've got some filler, I can go and put something in there.
Yeah.
Yeah, in combination of all those things, but it definitely is driven by like, you know,I've, I've spoke with a couple of PR companies and they like, they all tell me the same
(21:38):
thing.
Can I do a single release for you?
A single press release, a single let?
Absolutely.
However, if you really want the biggest bang for your buck, give me your, your plan.
Tell me exactly what you're doing.
What is your schedule for this, this, this, and this?
and you pay them an amount each month and they're really up to their eyeballs in makingsure people know who the hell you are and what you're doing.
(22:05):
And sometimes it may entail what type of ice cream you're eating.
Yeah.
So was there a moment where it all kind of clicked when it comes to the music where youyou're just like, yeah, I'm built for this because you'd mentioned you're you know, you
started off in the local scene.
You have a family.
(22:26):
You're getting into the corporate world and moving to different coasts.
But you're still that you still came back to music if you ever really left even to beginwith, you know, is it?
What was that moment where you're like, yeah, this is it.
I'm built for doing this.
I think, I mean, I've always had that in me.
(22:47):
the, the very first time I ever played a show, I've always had like, it's, I've said itfor decades, getting on stage is like a drug for me.
That is my high.
Getting up on stage and interacting with fans who love what you're doing.
Sometimes even interacting with people that don't love what you're doing.
(23:08):
But that's a whole other thing for.
performance, I could talk an hour on that.
But I think where things really kind of clicked with me and like, hey, there is a way forme to really focus on this side of it, was probably toward the end of when the run, my run
(23:34):
with Fleischkrieg.
You know, like I said, we did get a manager.
So I got into a point, well, when I was still well within Fleishkrieg, where the corporatelife, like I was struggling to get out of bed.
Like it just, I wasn't getting the same joy out of it.
Even though I could do the job really well, I wasn't necessarily happy with it.
(23:57):
But I really loved my skillsets and what I could apply.
So I wanted to get into the music industry and apply my skills to the music industry.
Well, shortly after that, we got a manager and I kind of shared these aspirations that Iwanted with my manager.
(24:18):
He's like, yeah, absolutely.
Like, I'll totally show you the ropes, blah, blah.
We'll get into it.
Sadly though, he didn't, not in a direct way.
And instead, I learned a lot about the music industry in that no one knows what the hellthey're doing.
(24:40):
Like they're all trying to get their buck the best way that they can.
And sadly, I also noticed there's a lot of predators out there, like toward the liketoward my end of my run with Flashcree going on tour with Mushroomhead.
Um, you know, working with producers and PR companies and all of this thing.
(25:05):
Um, I, I will say like, it was very eyeopening the amount of predators that there are.
Like when I noticed we were on tour.
like, like I said, we were in my opinion, the highest grossing support act for that tour.
But we like, when it was all said and done, we were in the red, like I was borrowing moneyto get back home.
(25:29):
And yeah, like and I still owed like our tour manager.
I still owed him like a good third of his salary and was borrowing and trading things topay those things off.
And honestly, I think that's another reason why I left FlashCrew was I was just burned outfrom the financial side of it.
(25:49):
But like a predatory practice that I absolutely cannot stand is merch cuts at venues likethere like
of controversy about that.
Absolutely.
And I will say we were fortunate that not many venues did that to us.
Of the 19 shows that we played, there was three venues that had their handout for theirpercentage.
(26:16):
15 percent of the money that you've worked your ass off for and you're trying to you'retrying to get into your gas tank, it definitely hurt.
And when I got home.
margins on shirts as it is, you know, you're you're paying five to eight dollars a shirt.
(26:38):
You know, you don't you want to treat your fans right.
So you don't want to sell shirts for 50 bucks.
Right.
So you find what's a good place there and you're making just enough to get to the nextvenue.
And then the merch cuts with the, you know, certain promoters and venues, they got theirhand out wanting one their piece of it.
(26:59):
Yeah, exactly.
when I got back home, like the whole financial thing's definitely like it hit hard, but Irealized what I come to realize about the music industry is one, everyone is out to try to
make money however they can, the easiest way that they can.
(27:22):
And sometimes
their methods of doing that is being predatory against creatives who aren't necessarily asgood with money or they get suckered into, like they know how to focus and groom you based
off of your hopes and dreams and they know, and yeah, hey, can really, your stuff is soamazing.
(27:46):
I can take you really, really far.
It's just gonna cost five figures to make it happen.
They use that your passion against you because I mean, lot of us are so passionate wherewe we don't have the money, but we will come up with the money, right?
Well, all the band members will chip in.
You'll get another job.
You'll take out a loan.
(28:07):
You'll you know, like
We've all watched the Leah Remini things about Scientology and how those people werespending hundreds of thousands of dollars on things.
it's a similar vibe.
So is this what inspired you to start your own management company again?
Like tell us a little bit about Darkstream and stuff.
(28:28):
So a little bit, was a little bit of that as well as, so you kind of ask like, you know,what was it like going from that local band to the, know, you're doing bigger shows and
stuff like that.
And a lot of people, like they always refer to it as local band versus national act andthings like that.
And what I realized, it's not that it's about professional versus amateur.
(28:52):
What it was, was I learned how to be a professional.
and I would go and I would see all these things that, you know, we, fly screen there, ourvery first tour ever was our own headlining tour that we did all our booking for and all
of that.
again, we, lost a crap ton of money, but we were playing, we were the headliner and we hada lot of local support and we kept noticing certain behaviors of the local bands that were
(29:22):
supporting us.
And.
And again, like at the end of the mushroom head tour is when I come to realization, theother part is that there is no, like there is no science to the music industry and
everyone, no one knows what the hell they're doing.
They just know their particular niche, figure out a way to make money from it and, and goout from there.
(29:46):
And I, and I basically was like, you know what?
I'm going to start my own.
And another reason that I decided to start my own was
One of so when I went on that tour, we got to play Cincinnati, my hometown, and the dreamvenue I always wanted to be with, let alone opening for one of my most influential bands
to my music.
(30:07):
Like I was a huge mushroomhead fan for 20 years.
So that was a dream come true, and I got to see some old friends from the old since themusic since the metal scene.
And one of my friends.
from back then on, you he reached out on Facebook and he was asking for feedback on a songand I was talking to him.
(30:29):
I was like, hey man, like, tell me like the vision that you have for like, tell me thatlike you want feedback on this song, but I want to know the vision for your band.
He's like, well, you know, you think we'll eventually like we'll play some shows.
And I was like, no, no, no, no, no.
Like not next steps.
What is your ultimate vision for this band?
(30:49):
He's like, well, I really don't know.
And I'm like, that's when it clicked with me.
Hey, what a lot of it is, is people are missing long term vision.
They're missing a mission statement or a brand North star for their artists.
And they're missing how to appropriately work backwards from that to understand where theyare and to create milestones and goals and.
(31:18):
really focus on on those things.
And I was like, I so honestly, between a combination of that, and my observations, this iswhen I decided I'm going to go and do this.
And I call it darkstream music management.
And even then, like, as I started that, I started coming to the realization that what I'mdoing isn't as much management as it is development.
(31:42):
And
I kind of learned that there's a threshold, like a manager is there when you already havesomething, you're already well established and they just need someone to help with the
heavy lifting or organizing all the chaos that they've got going on, but they're alreadywell established.
Yeah, you get your music and everything to a point where when you can't handle it yourown, that's when you bring in a manager.
(32:10):
know, I have people hit me up all the time and say, can you get me a manager?
Can you get me a manager?
And my first question is always, why do you want a manager?
what, you know, and there's a lot of misconceptions and they, I hear a lot, oh, well, if Iget a manager, then I'll make it.
I'll get, you know, I need
I want to be famous and I want to be rich.
(32:31):
So get me a manager because they equate getting a manager or getting signed to a label aswinning the lottery.
it's, you really need to have an understanding of not just what a manager does, but whenare you ready for that step?
Yep.
Yeah.
And so what I came to in my own observations and I've kind of set a threshold on, allright, once a band has hit this point, they probably need a manager.
(33:01):
If they've not hit this point, they need development.
And I would say actually 100 % of my work right now with Darkstream is development.
But for me, that threshold is, is this artist...
making at least five grand a month from solely their art, their music, whatever, be itfrom merch sales, be it from streaming, be it from playing shows, whatever the case may
(33:27):
be, if they are making at least five grand a month on their own from this, then they needa manager.
If they aren't, they need development in figuring out how they are organized in a way thatthey're making money and they're able to sustain a living in music.
And so the majority of the people, if not all of them, they're in development.
(33:50):
And again, the way that I start is what is your vision?
Where ultimately, where do you want to be?
Like as it relates to this project, your art, your music, where do you see yourself in 20years?
Where do you want to see yourself in 20 years?
And then when we establish that vision, then we work backwards from that and go, okay.
(34:15):
Well, in order to get that, you have to be here first.
In order to be here, you have to be here first and just work backwards until where theyare today and then establish a set of goals for a year.
Say, all right, one year from now, we're going to, we're going to do these things.
We're going to get, you know, we're going to release this many songs.
(34:36):
We're going to have this many streams, this many subscribers, followers, whatever.
We're making this amount of money.
setting those goals and then after that once I've established a year then I break it downinto okay what are we going to do for the next three months and really focus on just three
months because what a lot of people will find is they can do a lot in three months thatthey never thought possible to be done in a year.
(35:04):
If you're if if you have the organization, which I, you know, having worked with you onnumerous projects, I it's something that you excel at, for sure.
No pun intended.
But yeah, there's a lot to be said, especially if you're working with somebody who has thesame vision as you do and you you you take action, but you do everything you do is with
(35:28):
intent towards that common goal.
You can get a lot more done than if you're just like
man, it's 2 a.m.
Maybe I post a picture of my dinner onto our band page so that we have some engagement.
know, it's yeah, to your point, if you do things really with intent, you can get a lotdone in a short amount of time.
(35:49):
Yeah, well that and also that vision becomes your North Star for everything that you do.
whenever you come up, because what often happens is people will, they'll be givenopportunities.
They'll like, hey, do you want to open up for this band next month?
Or do you want to go and do this TV show or whatever?
(36:11):
And it sounds awesome and amazing.
And it sounds like it's like the next level or you're getting somewhere.
But before you say yes, you go, how does this fit the long term vision?
Is this in line with what we're wanting to do?
Is this line with our brand?
If the answer is no, then you politely decline because all you're doing is you're takingenergy away from that ultimate vision.
(36:40):
And if it and if you find yourself going, no, I really want to do this, then you got toask yourself why.
Like, why do you want to do this, and are you still in line with that vision?
And not to say the vision can't change, but it should be an act of Congress to make thatvision change if you really feel comfortable and set with what you're trying to do.
(37:00):
Yeah, for some reason that reminded me, I saw this interview with a friend of mine who's acomedian, Eric Andre, and he was talking about, I can't remember the exact name of what
show it was or movie, but there was a role that he had turned down and the actor that tookthat went on to win an Oscar.
(37:21):
And they were asking him in this interview, like, do you regret turning that down?
And he was like, you know, or like, why did you turn that down?
was the question and he said, know, I looked at it and at the end of the day, it didn'tjust feel like it fit my brand and I turned it down based off of that and he's like, yeah,
and you know what?
This other actor went and absolutely killed it and got an Oscar and maybe Eric Wood orwould not have gotten an Oscar, right?
(37:49):
But yeah.
like, because in the end, like if he felt it wasn't fitting his brand, then that means hisamount of attention and effort toward that would not have been a hundred percent versus
this person's was.
So like just because somebody won an Oscar on a role that he turned down, would bet amillion dollars that he would not have won an Oscar.
(38:17):
He had done it.
So I mean, nothing against it.
mean, dudes, but he would not have put forth the same effort, the same energy because itwasn't in line.
It's just like someone would go to me like, why would you quit an amazing job, you know,making seriously amazing money?
Well, because my energy wasn't there for it anymore.
(38:39):
I wasn't, it wasn't bringing me the same joy.
And I was doing a disservice to the company and to my team by continuing to, to trudgealong with it.
So.
Yeah.
So my next question, you're so you're now fronting you have your own band, Ista Bus,right?
You were always the guy off to the side playing guitar and now you're you know, you're thefront man.
(39:04):
You're the guy with the mic.
You're front and center.
What made you make that transition?
That's a it's not just a different instrument.
That is a that's a pretty, you know, significant transition into a completely differentrole.
Oh yeah, very different.
I can attest, it's very different.
(39:24):
It was, it's kind of weird how it did and the more I reflect on it, but I've never beenlike, when I was a kid in elementary school, I was in choir and I could sing and I could
do it, but I found more joy in playing an instrument.
And then I moved to a rural area that they,
(39:47):
you know, that they were limited in some of the things.
And something happened in my scheduling from going to elementary school to junior high andmiddle school and whatnot that they didn't put me in choir.
So like I stopped doing the choir thing, but really stuck with the instrument.
And then kind of my vocal skills, like I always like had a like even the first time I gotup on stage and I will say for years going up on stage, there was a level of
(40:16):
nervousness and anxiety going up there, but I loved it.
But again, not all the attention was on me.
I made the attention go to me.
Like the amount of attention I got, I asked for.
But not all the attention was on me.
And as I progressed as a performer, I kept like seeing myself like almost in a competitionwith my singers going, no, I'm going to
(40:44):
make sure people know who I am and I'm going to fight the performance side of it.
But I never felt comfortable singing.
Like it was just weird.
I hadn't done it for years.
Strange thing happened.
I got asked to judge a karaoke competition and I found myself watching all of thesekaraoke professionals who could sing amazing but their performance
(41:14):
was woefully inadequate.
And I asked the director, I was like, hey, can I go into a song?
He's like, sure, absolutely.
And I did it as a learning thing, like, hey, when I say performance, when I say stagepresence, this is what I mean.
(41:36):
And I went up on stage and I sang Pearl Jam's Jeremy.
And I had everybody in that room losing their mind and interacting.
And I was like, huh, this kind of feels interesting.
Shortly after that, some friends of mine, we started going to do karaoke at a local placehere in Los or outside of Las Vegas.
(42:03):
And we started going every week.
And I would go up and sing Tenacious D songs or the theme from the love boat and
I started enjoying it and I was like, you know what?
think I'm gonna start, you know, like I wanna take what I was doing with my solo stuff,instrumental stuff and I wanna turn it to where there's vocals to it.
(42:23):
And I think I wanna have someone else play guitar and only me sing.
And so I started working on that and then someone had gifted me lessons for Melissa Crosswhere I learned about, I, you know, shout out to Melissa Cross, like.
She is a true beast and legend in the vocal academy.
(42:49):
And for those who don't know, she's known for how to correctly teach people to scream anddo vocal fry and things like that without hurting their voice and doing it naturally.
Yeah, she's worked.
mean, she's worked a lot like like Randy from Lamb of God and.
Yep.
(43:09):
Corey Taylor, David Draymond, Maria Brink from In This Moment, like all across the board.
And she got into like in hearing her story, like how she got into it was kind ofinteresting where she didn't do any of that.
Like she was a vocal coach and a vocal instructor.
(43:29):
And she had a producer friend that was like, hey, I've got this kid that he is coughing upblood every time he
comes to do vocal takes, can you come and help him?
Yeah, like literally like he's having problems.
And she was like, I'll come and check it out, but I really don't know.
(43:50):
And then she went and saw the kid in the studio, saw him doing this stuff and sure enough,he's coughing up blood and shit.
And she's like, I don't know how to help you, but I'm going to find out.
And she took it upon herself to ultimately end up learning the science behind.
the techniques that goes into death metal that goes into screaming and all of that stuff.
(44:13):
And she basically became the pioneer in it.
Someone gifted me that her speak, scream course.
And I was like, I just want to get to the screaming part.
I was like, no, I'll be the good guy.
And I'll start at the beginning.
And the speaking one was like, no, we're going to teach you techniques.
(44:36):
Yeah.
things that you're going to do every day.
And we're going to change your mindset of how singing works and we're going to change howyour breathing works and how you recognize these sensations and these feelings and how
they all work together to where it becomes second nature.
So I started doing that and like, literally, mean, literally within a month of me takingthese, these less actually within a week or two, I was going to karaoke.
(45:04):
I'm belting out.
like music of the night.
I'm building out Chris Isaac.
You know, I'm holding notes for 15 seconds and I'm doing this stuff and people are like,holy crap.
I'm like, I think I could do this.
So yeah, so I'm getting into it.
Played my very first show ever singing in front man and I will say there's definitely alot of work to do.
(45:31):
It definitely took me out of my comfort zone, but I'm so excited for it.
Like it's a
completely different challenge that I wasn't prepared for, but I'm so excited for.
That's great.
how is it different like managing like managing other people's careers versus your ownmusic?
(45:54):
I would say it's a little bit different in that managing my own stuff, I kind of know theskill sets and the things, but I think the thing that I lack with mine is what I bring to
other people, which is accountability.
So for me, you know, there's no one holding me accountable to my goals and these things,and I can keep pushing them off and whatever.
(46:18):
But I know what I need to do.
I'll start making out plans and I'll start doing these things and stuff gets done, but Idon't necessarily have that accountability partner to be like with me every week going,
all right, where are you at with this?
Where are we at?
Okay, why are you pushing this out?
And then I think.
need me, just call me up and I'm happy to you don't even have to tell me what the issueis.
(46:39):
I'll just be like, hey, you're fucking up.
Get it together.
I know.
I know.
I'll leave it as a voicemail and you can play it anytime you need that.
I got you, bro.
But so I think helping with others, the with it is as very different as I'm I'm thataccountability person.
(47:03):
Like I'm not there to set their vision.
I'm not there to change their vision.
I'm there to help them realize it.
And then I'm I'm there to help them.
Get to, you know, creating these goals.
you know, reviewing them.
I'm a big metrics guy.
Like I'm going to websites and I'm getting details.
(47:26):
I'm going to sound charts and going, all right, where are we at with followers and streamsand all of this stuff?
And looking at trends and what's happened the last six to eight weeks.
I get to be like, literally it's, hey, I create these templates and these things for you.
(47:46):
Where are you at with this?
Okay, cool.
What you need?
What roadblocks do you have?
And help them work through it.
And again, like even like the artists that I'm working with right now, I don't think anyof them are in the exact genre of music that I work in.
(48:07):
So like they're almost even completely different.
So some I'm learning a little bit more about like, had no idea what shoegaze was.
yeah.
Yeah, no idea.
I'm working with a band from Cincinnati and they're a big doom metal band.
(48:27):
And I'm learning about all these different techniques and producers and artists and stufflike that.
But this but it's the same thing of like I'm developing them in figure.
You know, we've got.
these three months and where they're at with these things and meet with them on a regularbasis to go, okay, where are we at with this?
(48:50):
What do you need?
Do you need contacts for this?
Do you need help figuring out someone to do PR for that?
So I'm there to one, help hold them accountable to the goals that they've set, making surethey're staying true to their vision and helping remove any roadblocks that they're having
getting to that.
(49:10):
nice.
So yeah, that's kind of the big difference there.
And I don't, like in my own stuff, like there's always a potential for like interpersonaldrama or these setbacks and things like that.
With this, I don't have that.
It's, all right, let's, you know, I think I need to have a difficult discussion with thisband member.
(49:35):
Okay, let's talk about it.
What's going on?
a little bit removed from the emotional side of things where you're just more of a, andexactly a neutral third party and an objective voice that's in there to, you know, to, to
give that guidance.
And, know, like you talked about earlier, stay focused on that North star.
(49:57):
Um, if you had to go back and give you your younger self advice, so whether it's rightbefore a
a tour right before like your first corporate gig.
What would you say?
I've thought about this and it's, don't know that it'll necessarily be helpful.
but if I was to ever go back, like if I could go back to, when I was in high school, Iwould tell myself to buy stock and Amazon and Apple like straight up, like I would do
(50:28):
these things, but yeah.
but I would say like, as like a musician and someone getting into the professional worldand stuff like that, I always.
Like they've put a name to it in the last five to ten years, but I always had impostersyndrome So like I myself I did not go to college.
(50:49):
I do not have a degree When I was in high school, I always felt like I'm kind of goodenough like I'm I'm smart and I know I'm gonna graduate with good grades like I wasn't the
most popular kid and you know I had but there was always something where I felt inferiorto what I really was and I I suffered from imposter syndrome
(51:10):
And I would probably go back and go, no, don't accept anything less.
Don't think that you're not good enough.
Because more than likely, the people that you're idolizing or the things that you thinkare completely unattainable are absolutely attainable.
(51:33):
When I was a teenager, if someone had told me I was going to be
traveling the world, managing people from six different countries and teams from 11different countries, and that I would be completely changing policies and procedures and
(51:54):
making a difference in, you know, Fortune 500 companies, I would have said you were fullof shit.
No way.
But I did.
It took, and for me, I felt like it took a lot longer than it should have.
because of myself.
Like I was holding myself back because I didn't think I was good enough.
And one of the things...
(52:15):
they say that imposter syndrome is most prevalent in high performing individuals, right?
So the the people that are like, I'm the best, I'm the greatest, I'm the shit, right?
Those are usually the ones that aren't.
And the ones that are really great are the ones that, you know, they have that impostersyndrome.
(52:35):
think I think with me, my like my biggest fear is that
What happens if they figure out I'm not good enough to have imposter syndrome, right?
Hahaha
Or maybe I should have imposter syndrome.
Right.
Yep.
(52:56):
Well, cool.
I think so.
Quick, like lightning round of some questions just to finish us off here.
Like right off the top of your head, like what what is what's one rule you live by?
always take ownership of my actions and never make excuses.
Love that.
(53:17):
What's one risk that paid off for you?
okay.
So speaking of Amazon and all of that, I was always scared to fly this.
Sorry, this is going to be a little bit longer than a short round.
I was always scared to fly and I always like anytime there was an opportunity, but itrequired me to fly it.
(53:43):
was like, nope.
One time I was, I was a trainer.
And there was an opportunity to take a short term assignment to Costa Rica and help buildtheir training team.
This was back in 2009, like the beginning of 2009.
I applied for it, but I applied for it in, you know, against three or four other sites,probably a total pool of like 20 trainers.
(54:15):
I applied for it and I got it.
Nice.
I got the feedback from like, just FYI, pack your bags and get your passport, you're goingto Costa Rica.
I was like, fuck yeah, I'm going to Costa Rica.
And as soon as I hung up the phone, I was like, shit, I'm going to Costa Rica.
(54:37):
And it's not an island.
No, you're thinking of Puerto Rico.
No.
Costa Rica is very much it is it is not a peninsula.
It's not an island.
The Atlantic and Pacific oceans are on both sides of it, but it's part of Central America.
(54:58):
But the thing was, as I did that, I spent three months lonely as hell, but seeing some ofthe coolest things, experiencing so many cultures, and that completely flipped my mindset
as it related to.
how much I was holding myself back and how much I could do.
And that opened me up to, you know what?
(55:19):
I'm willing to travel by plane to our headquarters.
I'm willing to, you know, go and do these things.
And at the end of it, like, there was one year I was in four different continents.
And I, like, one trip I was literally going to Ireland.
(55:41):
to Italy, to Morocco, to Germany, then to South Africa.
And then like two or three months later, I was going to India and Japan.
And like, you want to experience complete culture shock, but go to India.
(56:07):
It is amazing.
Like I was the one place I was like, got no desire to go there.
I got asked to be the heavy for a work trip to make sure nothing, like I'm a bigintimidating guy and there was a couple of women that were going and they didn't want to
be harassed.
So I went and it was one of the most enriching experiences I ever had.
So definitely that was the one thing like I can equate to me going to Costa Rica andapplying for that job that I thought I had no chance of getting.
(56:37):
I applied for it and I got it and it.
my life completely flipped on its head after that point.
Wow.
What's one thing you're most excited about for 2025?
Now that we're halfway, you know, we're in June already.
We're more than halfway there.
So this isn't formally announced, but we're going to be here in the next week or two.
(57:00):
I so part of the reasons why I started my management company was because I was tired ofpredatory practices against artists and musicians.
And I wanted to appropriately with honesty, honesty and integrity, help develop and growthose people.
you know, these people into this and ultimately eventually make a change in the musicindustry.
(57:24):
After a few discussions with some friends and even a mentor, I have decided to create aindependent music organization called the Independent Musicians Guild.
And it is actually, it's...
very much in the early stages, basically create, it's a membership organization, sothere'll be do's, but creating different experiences and opportunities for independent
(57:54):
musicians around the world to help empower multiple people.
like, don't have to, I don't want to manage a million bands, but I do want to make adifference in a million bands and create this organization where other, it's community.
but it's also education and also providing additional opportunities.
(58:19):
So like at the start, a lot of it's going to be like blogs, podcasts, meetings, thingslike that.
And then once we start getting into the paid tiers, we're going to be creating moretraining, more in-depth available training resources, and then working to get discounts,
(58:40):
get access to members only events.
where we have some famous keynote speakers to come in and talk about different aspectswithin the music industry.
And then ultimately have a higher tier for people who are really committed and are lookingfor things like healthcare, looking for legal insurance, financial planning, and also a
(59:05):
higher tier access to larger...
opportunities within like say PR, booking agencies, stuff like that, getting directoriesto music producers and PR agencies and all the different things that they want to do to be
(59:29):
able to, artist management and development, things to help them elevate and be successfulindependently.
Nice.
Where can people if anybody wants to like check out what you're doing or reach out to youor anything like that, where are some places that they can find you?
(59:50):
I mean, I'm on the usual Facebook, Instagram.
I'm on there quite a bit, but I think it's istibus.tomass is my main handle on Instagram.
But the easiest way to get in touch with me is info at darkstreammusicmanagement.com.
(01:00:10):
That's the email to my artist development and management company.
And yeah.
That's probably the best way to get in touch with me.
Love that.
Anything else you wanted to add or touch on?
no, no, I'm looking forward to seeing all the other things that come with a yes, you canquit your job and I'm really.
(01:00:35):
Yeah, quit your day job and I mean, no, honestly, and yeah, Easter bus.
But no, just looking forward to.
You know, changing the mindsets of artists and musicians and realize that they actuallycan be successful at this and and.
(01:00:56):
the term starving goes away.
I hate the term starving artist, but it's a true thing, but I want to see where that's notthe case.
So maybe that's the North Star vision is the term starving artist is never used everagain.
Well, Thomas, thanks for joining us today, man.
It was great chatting with you.
(01:01:17):
Absolutely, likewise.
All righty.
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