Bengals Booth Podcast: History

Hall of Famer and former Bengals coach Dick LeBeau joins Dan Hoard to discuss his 59 years as an NFL player or coach.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi, get everybody on Dan Hord and thanks for downloading
The Bengals Booth Podcast, the Got a Whole Lot of
History edition, as Hall of Famer and former Bengals coach
tick lebou joins me to discuss his remarkable life in football.
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(00:24):
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(00:45):
of this podcast delivered right to your phone, tablet, or
computer by subscribing wherever you get your podcasts. It's the
greatest thing since efficient use of dishes. I've joked on
this podcast before about some of my unique skills. For example,
I consider myself a world class whistler. If they ever

(01:07):
come out with American whistling idol, I'm a number one seed. Also,
I am an expert at pouring the perfect amount of
milk into a bowl of cereal so that the cereal
and milk end on the same spoonful. Well, let me
add another thing to the list. I have a genius
level ability to cook a meal with the minimal amount

(01:29):
of dirty pots, pans, utensils, dishes, et cetera. Part of
it is cleaning as I go, but when I'm finished,
there's generally very little cleanup required. In contrast, when my
wife makes dinner, and in fairness, she is a vastly
superior cook who makes dinner most of the time, the
sink looks like she's an army chef that just finished

(01:52):
serving the troops. You can probably tell who does the dishes. Now,
let's get to football. Dick Lebau played his first NFL
game in nineteen fifty nine as a twenty two year
old rookie for the Detroit Lions. He ended his coaching
career in twoenty seventeen as the eighty year old defensive

(02:15):
coordinator for the Tennessee Titans. In between, Dick spent fifty
nine consecutive years in the NFL as a player or coach,
and while he's best known nationally for the great defense
as he built in Pittsburgh, he actually spent more years
in Cincinnati than anywhere else, eighteen, including two plus years

(02:36):
as the Bengals head coach. Dick lives in the Cincinnati
area in retirement and joined me to discuss his remarkable career. Dick,
I think most people listening to this podcast know that
you spent your entire Hall of Fame playing career with
the Detroit Lions. But you were actually drafted by Paul

(02:56):
Brown in Cleveland in nineteen fifty nine. He was about
fifteen years old at the time, he had already won
seven championships. What do you remember about that training camp
under PB and fifty.

Speaker 2 (03:07):
Nine, Well, coach Paul was an innovator from the word
to go and many of the things that were firsts
for the National Football League in terms of training camps
and off season schedules, in season schedules, note books, they

(03:29):
all go back passing game, if you want to, they
all go back to Paul Brown. And he was just
he wasn't a very big man. He was a good
college quarterback, I think at Miami of Ohio, and he
was a guy that when he came into the room,
there was no question who was running the meeting. And

(03:51):
he just was a born leader with a tremendous acumen
for athletics and football in particular, and judge, he just
had an innate judge of talent, and he could almost
I think it was almost osmotic, because he would look
at somebody and he'd say, Oh, I don't think he's
going to make it, you know, And most of the

(04:12):
time he wouldn't, or he would say, this guy is
going to be a good football player. And that's how
he built his team and his records. I have a
particular oddity that I like to throw to the Brown
family whenever I get an opportunity. I was released from
my position three different times in the National Football League,

(04:34):
all of them by the Brown family. But in between there,
I have eighteen years of employment, and you know something,
and every time that I went to the bank, they
cast a check, and anything that any Brown family member
ever said to me that they were going to do

(04:58):
or weren't going to do for that matter, it was exactly.
You could go to the bank on their word, and
they were as good a people to work for as
you could ever hope for in any walk of life.

Speaker 1 (05:10):
Did Paul ever express regret that he didn't keep you
as a player in fifty nine.

Speaker 2 (05:16):
Oh, that's one of my favorite stories. Several years later,
Paul was up to my hometown, London, Ohio, and he
was speaking at a men's club banquet at the London
Country Club, which is no big deal at all because
at that time there were only about eight thousand people
in the town. But Paul married a London girl, so

(05:40):
he was I think out of just respect for her
and her where she came from, I agreed to go
up there and speak to him. Well, there are quite
a few of my friends in there, and I had
made several all pro teams. But then, you know, and
my buddy started to kind of giving Paul a little

(06:01):
the jam, you know, when he was doing the question
and answer, and one of one of my good buddies says, well,
you know, he said, you guys, cut dick lebou. And
now he's he's going into his thirteenth year and he's
three times in the Pro Bowl and he is leading
the league in interceptions, and don't you think that you

(06:22):
made a mistake there, Coach Brown and Paul he just
kind of shoveled his feet a little bit and he said, oh,
he said, I've let a lot better players than dick
lea bou Go, which was classic Paul. But you know,
when you look back at it, you know he traded
Willie Davis and through two or three other guys that

(06:46):
are in a Hall of Fame. He either cut him
or trade him. He knew where he was going and
he knew what his plan was, and if you didn't
exactly fit it, he we're on down the street now.
And then in those days, I was like to tell
the story, there were thirty one players on the squad period,

(07:06):
and you didn't worry about special teams. If you were
on the team, you played, if you were capable, you
played punt team, punt return team, kickoff team. The only
thing I didn't play on was the extra point team
field goal team. I wasn't big enough for that. But
there were five defensive backs on the final roster, and

(07:29):
that was pretty much true throughout the whole league. And
at that time there were only twelve teams, so there
were only sixty guys making a living playing professional football
unless you wanted to go to the only other option
was Canada, which I didn't want to do, but so
to get released from a team, me and the guy

(07:54):
but the name of Farrell Funston, who was a really
good wide receiver from a College of Pacific. He had
about an eight or nine year professional career. We were
the last two guys cut from the Cleveland Browns that year,
and it was after the last preseason game. We played
six at that time, So to go to the last

(08:14):
cut out of training camp, you didn't have to hang
your head. You just hoped that somebody else would have
a spot for you, and it worked out for me.

Speaker 1 (08:23):
The Browns were a perennial contender that as well, so
it was a tough roster to make. How grueling was
that training camp in fifty nine?

Speaker 2 (08:31):
Training camp then was truly training camp. Like all things,
the science of football has advanced tremendously. Guys didn't do
that much in the offseason, and because they knew that,
the training camp was literally almost two months long, and
you were going two times a day for that first month,

(08:53):
and you had plenty of time to play yourself into shape.
And that was kind of the statis qurow throughout the
league at that time. But it was you were hunting
for that bed at lunch. After lunch, you jumped in
for a nap. I don't care if you were twenty

(09:16):
one years old or not. But Coach Brown had an
interesting way of doing things, and he was not going
very too much over the years because it worked. He
put in one offensive play a day, one play a day,
and well actually too because we practiced twice a day

(09:38):
that first month. But the first day we actually would
go out on the field and the only play that
he had in was a quarterback sneak and we would
line up for team period for twenty minutes anyway running
quarterback seat. But that's how thorough he was. He was
the first one to universally, universally apply the notebook, and

(10:03):
the players took their own notes. So when you would
go into the team meeting, he would speak to you
and then you'd break them to the position meetings and
the position coach would draw up the lesson for the
day up on the board, and you as a player
would sit in the classroom and draw it up in
your notebook, which you took with you, and you could

(10:26):
you had it there to study, and if your notes
weren't good, then you had no one to blame but yourself.
But that was the way he did it. Stuff like that,
Like I said, he.

Speaker 1 (10:37):
Really customized football we're visiting with Hall of Famer Dick Lebow.
Let's go from Paul Brown to another coaching legend. You
went from your small Ohio hometown to Ohio State, played
a big role in a national championship team in nineteen
fifty seven, and of course played for the legendary Woody Hayes.
What did you respect most about coach Hayes.

Speaker 2 (11:02):
Well, you're talking about two of the greatest football coaches
that ever stepped in the coaching room. But I also
as a professional football player for fourteen years, Don Shula
was one of my earliest defensive coordinators. I went to

(11:22):
three Pro Bowls. Vince Lombardi was one of them. Shula
was the So I was lucky enough to be I
always wanted to be a coach myself, and so I
kept a pretty good eye on the people that were
the head coaches and my position coach for that matter,
because I just you know, I would evaluate to myself, well,

(11:45):
you know that's probably a good way to do that,
or I might say I don't think I would do
it that way. And I was trying to prepare myself
for a life of coaching. And when I was with
the toy like I say I had Don Shula was
one of our very first coaches there. Shula had played

(12:08):
for Baltimore and then came over his coaching job with us,
and we led the league for two years and nobody
was close to us. And actually, when the Baltimore job
came open, Don went back and that's how he got
his first head coaching job. And so I found this
to be true in watching these guys like Lombardy and

(12:31):
Woody and coach Paul Brown, there was something different about them,
about their personality, about the delivery of their material. I
felt when I would go away from that experience, whatever
they would have chosen to be professionally for the rest
of their lives, they'd have been a huge success. Like

(12:52):
they were a coach, they had they had it, you
know how they put the quotation marks. But wood he
was I think one of only two men and maybe
only one man who rose to the rank of captain
and the Navy from the enlistment ranks, and he had

(13:13):
his own ship, and he was just special. And you
know there's an old Saint Dan, if it doesn't kill you,
it's good for you. Well, I'm still here talking to you.
So what he was fairly demanding, but so was coach
Brown for that matter, and Coach Shule. I mean you

(13:33):
kind of if you demand excellence, I should say perfection.
I guess some of them were, but I curtailed it.
I don't think anybody's perfect, but if you seek that,
you're going to get pretty good. And you get pretty
much what you accept as a coach, and these guys
accepted nothing short of getting the job done.

Speaker 1 (13:57):
Did I read correctly that you developed a friendship with
Bobby Knight when you were students at the same time
at Ohio State.

Speaker 2 (14:04):
Yeah. Well, I had my first two years in the
business accounting, and then I realized that it wasn't going
to work for me. I had to be a coach,
and I got back into physical education, and which was
the degree of teaching degree, and in doing so, I

(14:26):
piled up all these hours credits, but I didn't have
enough for major so I went back two years my
first two years of playing professional football, and these guys
were all one or two years behind me and the
great Ohio State National championship basketball team. I became friends
with all of them. I played basketball with them all
the time. They would always put me on mail nole

(14:48):
because I would foul him and they got a big
kick out of that. But everyone off that team we
played three or four times a week really in the
off season, everyone but Jerry Lucas. He was too dig
I'm good, and we didn't want to play with him anyhow.
But I got to be friends with Habilchek and night

(15:13):
and stuff like that, hanging out with him at the
man's gym because if I wasn't playing football, I was
getting my body ready to play football. And one of
the best ways I always told my defensive backs play basketball.
Only play defense and keep your position on your guy
and stay between him and in the basket all the time,
which is what you got to do on the football field.

(15:34):
You got to stay between that guy and the goal
line because once he gets over there, schools out. And
I was a good basketball player, I could play with
those guys. I maybe played a little rougher than they played,
but they were That was one of the trademarks of
that great Ohio State team. They were a physical team. Uh. Bobby,

(16:00):
he would drive me crazy because he would say, let's
go see Woody. He was. He was a very adamant
admire of wood He hates and Bobby wanted to be
a coach too, And Bobby and I would talk about
defensing our different sports all the time, keeping pressure on
the ball, and it ended up working out for both

(16:20):
of us. Now, he wanted to held a lot more
games than I did, but I won my share too.
But that was kind of what we came up with.
For me, it was you got to get the quarterback.
You know, you can't let him go in there and
have all day to shave or whatever back there passing
the ball. He's going to cut you up. And with
Bobby it was they have all these intricate patterns and

(16:43):
shot screens and posting drives and everything. He said, you
got to disrupt that with pressure on the ball. So
between the two of us we got along great. But
Bobby wouldn't say, let's go see Woody. Let's go see Woody.
I said, Bobby, we just were down there two days ago.
He's running up football team. And it wasn't the off season,
of course, when I could go back to school and

(17:05):
get my degree. But we became good friend and Bobby,
in my way of thinking, is probably the most misunderstood
a great coach in any sport in any Land. The
media perception of Bobby is all you hear now and

(17:26):
people you know that was a long time ago when
we were playing basketball together. But I wrote Bobby when
when he had his biggest problems, I said, Bobby, if
my son is ever good enough to play basketball, that
was my son's favorite game. I said, I'm going to
send him to where you are, wherever you are, because

(17:49):
I want you to coach my son. That's what I
believed that Bobby Night. And I'm not too sure that
I helped him at all. By exposing to the wood
he becaut. Some of Bobby's coaching techniques paralleled Woody, but
they both won a lot of games.

Speaker 1 (18:09):
I was part of the Syracuse University broadcast team in
nineteen eighty seven when they played Indiana in the championship game.
Had lost on the famous Keith Smart last second shot.
The day before the game, the head coaches did a
news conference. I still have the cassette recording. I don't
know if I have a cassette player to play it,
but I still have the tape of Bobby Knight speaking

(18:31):
reporters that day because it's the most impressive public speaking
appearance I have ever seen in my life. It was brilliant.

Speaker 2 (18:40):
Bobby was a smart guy and he was a tremendous competitor.
You know, Bobby was They told him the greatest six
man in basketball. But he played as much as any
of the guys. He never missed. He had a jump shot,
it was poison. But he was great team player. Those
guys didn't care who was playing. They just all played

(19:02):
and they were tremendous. But Bobby was smart. He was
driven like all of us. You know, that end up coaching,
and sometimes his techniques were more befitting a football coach,
I think than a basketball coach. And it was a

(19:23):
different time, a different era, and I think that Bobby
would have altered a great deal of that in today's world.
But unfortunately a lot of the stories that have come
down from him, and he gave them plenty of material.
You hear about the wrong things that he did, and

(19:44):
Bobby did so many great things, and he was great
with the kids.

Speaker 1 (19:48):
We're visiting with tickleball. Ted Carris joined the Bengals a
couple of years ago. He is the great nephew of
one of your Detroit teammates, Hall of Famer Alex Carris,
and as I chatted with Ted. Through our conversations, I
decided to read the old book Paper Lion, which focuses
on Detroit's training camp in nineteen sixty three. You come

(20:09):
off in that book as the coolest guy in the NFL,
guitar playing slick dancing ladies man. What do you think
of the book and your portrayal?

Speaker 2 (20:21):
That was all George Plimpton, the author, he was writing
a book. He had he picked up a stick. He
would go and work out with various accomplished professional athletes,
and then he'd write the books about him. And he
had a particular style that caught the fancy of the

(20:41):
United States, the American reading public. And he was a very,
very successful author. And he had started out He's an
ivy league guy, and he started out in Europe as
the editor of a big fancy I mean, he was
a very erudite guy, you know. So he was entering
a different area when he went into the wrestlers and

(21:03):
the boxers and the football players. But it worked for him,
and I guess that was the character that he wanted
me to portray in his book. This story kind of
goes like we didn't know as a team that he
was not a legitimate candidate for the football team that

(21:24):
he was actually trying out for quarterback in our training camp. Well, Dan,
it took us three minutes to know this guy. He
can't walk in chew gum. You know, this guy is
not a quarterback. But he became a good friend of
mine also, and they actually they sold the rights for

(21:45):
the book for a movie. He made a pretty good
movie out of it, allan all and I think played George.
But they show you the difference in the way the
league has changed. After the book came out out, he
actually spent two weeks with us and training camp, went
to meetings with his hate with us. He did everything

(22:07):
with us, And I think it was probably it was
after the book or after the book was a movie.
They wanted to do a television special on him running
one series of downs at a at the NFL preseason game,

(22:27):
and so the I think it was the Cowboys. No, no,
it was the Colts. They said, yeah, you can, you
can do it, and so they couldn't get anybody to
do it with them, you know, so they they came
back to Detroit where he wrote, you know, his book,

(22:49):
and Joe Schmidt was our head coach. And George was
a player when Joe was a player, when George Plimpton
was trying to get back in there and do this
cut this TV series. So it wasn't serious, but it
was a you know, thirty five to forty minute the show.

(23:11):
And Joe said, yeah, come on, he can come on
in and play. So he actually came back to Detroit
practice with us a week and they gave him four
plays and we were playing. And so I think the
only pro game it's ever been in ourbor Stadium in Michigan.
We went up there and played a preseason game and
at halftime we went out there in the arsses. Our

(23:33):
number one defense went against their number one offense. But
Climpton was a quarterback. Now can you imagine any franchise
in today's world, Okay, in anything like that, But that
actually happened, and it was it was about one hundred
degrees and it was down you know how that's a bowl.
That stadium's a bowl. It was about one hundred and

(23:55):
twenty down there on the field. So we all said,
I don't know if this was a good dear not
planning this extra series of now, but I just thought
to myself, well, this is great. And I said, I'm
going to get out here on national TV and George
Plimpton's going to complete a pass against me. I said, Plympton,

(24:15):
don't you ever even think about throwing the ball? Run
it three times and we'll get out here. Well, he
passed it naturally, but unfortunately it wasn't He didn't get
the ball hardly in the air. But I could see
myself being the only one that Plimpton ever committed a
passing with.

Speaker 1 (24:36):
All right, let's move to your Cincinnati years. You join
the Bengals coaching staff as a part of Forrest Gregg's
first staff in nineteen eighty. Was Forrest Gregg as tough
and no nonsense as his players make it sound.

Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yeah, well, Forest was a task master. He was great.
He was He was exactly what that team need with
people forget because that air of Bengal football. One loss,
maybe it was not reflective after it was all totaled up,
was maybe not that good. But we went to the
Super Bowl twice, and we had some great teams and

(25:13):
always had great offenses and defense. If we could have
just gotten a little bit better, we would have won
a couple of those Super Bowls. And we could have
won both of them. It was just one play game
type of thing. But Forrest was I think exactly what
Paul was looking for. Paul had started coaching the team
when he got the franchise, and he put him right

(25:38):
in the playoffs. It was amazing what he did with
that team. But he then he hired Forrest, and I
had applied for employment with Paul both times that they
were of course they became a franchise, I was still playing,

(26:00):
but he always had had the position before I didn't
get there. So I had some guys that had played
with Forest at Green Bay, I had worked with in
Philadelphia was my first coaching and they said you should
get this. Well, I'd gone to Green Bay and worked

(26:22):
with Bart Starver and then but they and they all
said to Forrest, you should get this guy to coach
your dvs. And uh, that's how I was lucky enough
to get to Cincinnati because I'm a high guy, Dan
and I'd never wanted to leave Ohio and I probably
never would have Ohio. But professional athletics and professional coaches

(26:47):
often change addresses, and as they say, don't send your
underwear out to the dry cleaner of me because you
may not be here to claim it, but uh, it
was like manna from heaven for me when Forced said
that he would like to talk to me. And Green

(27:10):
Bay is not a good place for a golfer. Man.

Speaker 1 (27:15):
I grew up near Buffalo.

Speaker 2 (27:16):
It's about the same are I've spent a year there too.
This April the first before you know if you got
any grass on your yard because it's all snow. But
Force grag was Will Lombardi said he was the best
football player he ever coached. And I have nothing but

(27:37):
good words to say about Forceth grade as a player,
as a coach, and a man, a boss, someone to
work for. He was perfect and he did a great
job with that team. We were a good team.

Speaker 1 (27:52):
The first of those Super Bowl appearances that you referenced
was in your second year of the nineteen eighty one season.
I asked Mike Brown once to name his most painful
loss of all the years that he's been associated with
the Bengals, and he said super Bowl sixteen because he
believes in his heart of hearts that the Bengals were
the better team. You committed four turnovers in that game.

(28:14):
Do you feel the same way where the Bengals the
better team and Super Bowl sixteen.

Speaker 2 (28:19):
Well, super Bowl games are almost always nip and tuck
and they go down to the last possession generally speaking.
If you you know football historian, you can check it
and it's just true. It's it's a one play game
usually because both teams are excellent and they've beaten a
lot of excellent teams to be there. And that game
was a typical Super Bowl game. We moved the ball

(28:42):
well and the turnovers and we had a couple of turnovers.
Ken Anderson was maybe the most accurate quarterback that I've
ever been around, and he and this group of receivers
were outstanding. They just they didn't have any turnovers, and
yet in that game we had several of them. They

(29:03):
were down in the red red zone, which were points.
And I know I remember one drive. We had a
great running back, a powerful full back from pay Johnson
from Ohigh State, and it was unstoppable. Well, the forty
nine ers stopped him four times, and ut I didn't

(29:25):
think anybody could do that, but they did. So you
got to give credit to the forty nine ers on that.
But percentage wise, I would say ninety nine point ninety
nine percent of the time, we're going to score from there.
And the game was just a three or four point game. Uh,
we had every chance to win. But the interesting thing
about that, and I think I would use this story

(29:47):
quite often my coaching career. Both of those both of
those teams record the year before were three wins and
the rest losses. And those both of the franchises did
the enough job and coaching wise and everything. It flipped
it around, and there they were, both of them playing
in the Super Bowl. And it can happen in one year,

(30:09):
and I would you know, sometimes you get off to
a bad start and you just have to have some
concrete examples to give the guys to say, keep grinding,
we're getting better, and this game can flip.

Speaker 1 (30:22):
You became defensive coordinator in eighty four and you're widely
credited for developing the zone blitz or the fire zone defense.
Did you literally dry it up on cocktail napkins.

Speaker 2 (30:34):
Yes, that's true. That's a true story. And it did
originate in Cincinnati, Ohio, and coach Sam Wise was the
head coach. And I was very fortunate there because Sam
was an innovator too, and he was one of the
first guys to no huddle, strictly no huddle and anything.

(30:55):
He would try anything, and probably most of the coaches
that were the head coaches at that era, particularly, but
even today, if I came in I said, look, here's
what I want to do. I want to blitz the
little guy and drop the big guy back into past coverage.
He would say, maybe when you become a head coach

(31:18):
you can try that, but not on my watch. But Sam.
I drew it up for Sam and went through what
I was talking to him, and he said, yeah, let's
take a look at it. He didn't even blink an eye.
So that's how we got to practice time and to
start doing it. Probably the spark that lit the fire

(31:39):
i'd been thinking about. I'm always been a stats guy,
and I kept the results of every play that I called,
every defense, and we all made our own reels in
those days, and I would study and see which plays
were the most beneficial for us and which were caused
the most disaster for us. And what I found out

(32:01):
was the pressure place had seventy five percent of our
huge place came off of pressure on the Dagham quarterback, which,
as I said earlier in this discussion, of Bobby Knight,
and I had that figure it out before either one
of us were coaching, but the other the flip side

(32:22):
of that was the biggest damage place where these pressure
plays and everybody blitzed in man coverage in those days,
and if one guy slipped and they picked up the blitz,
somebody was wide open. And it was never for a
twelve yard gain, it was for a sixty or seventy
yard game. So I al said, I would like to

(32:42):
find a way to keep this pressure on the quarterback
but still have a guy or two with his eyes
available to see, Oh my buddy slipped down over there.
I better get the hell over there and help him out.
And we found a way to a safer way to blitz.
And that is not my quote. Bill Rangebarker was a

(33:03):
great defensive coach. He has a great Ohio background, and
I wouldn't say we were friends, but we're definitely closer
than acquaintances because if you were from Ohio, you were
a good friend of mine. And Bill had retired from
coach and he he was the coach of the great

(33:27):
Miami Dolphins defense. Yeah, and he was he was the
guy that he was a great contributor. Let's say to that,
to that record. In fact, they'll be the only undefeated
professional team ever. But I would I would look him
up because he got into education and was an athletic

(33:49):
director and several different schools. And in those days, as
as scouts or as coaches, we played a much bigger
role in the in the draft than they do now.
And we did a lot of the scouting of our
which I liked. You know, you learned the people coming
out of college and you thought might fit with your

(34:11):
style of defense. And you had to do a lot
of traveling, but I at leastwise and they were going
to listen to what you had found, and you would
have an input. Would you have the final say no,
I'm not saying that, but you could really impact the
thinking of the team, which I liked. But I would

(34:31):
look up. When I was anywhere close to friends of mine,
I'd go in and see him. While I was working
a kid out for the draft, and Arnsbarker was in Florida,
I think pretty sure the University of Florida, Gainesville, not
Florida State, but it's one of the others sometimes, Stan,

(34:53):
I'm right there with you. The synopsis don't quite hook,
but I think he was at Florida and I spent
a little time, and I said, Bill, I watched everybody's film,
and I watched yours a lot, and I said, I
like some of the things you did. And I've been
trying to find something that would apply in today's game

(35:18):
versus particular pass offenses that we're playing against now, a
pressure on the quarterback without giving up the big, big place.
And Bill looked at me across the desk and he said, Dick,
all I was looking for was a safer way to blitz.
And soon soon as the words came out of his mouth,
I said, oh, that's exactly what I'm looking for. And

(35:42):
Bobby and I used to have our cheeseburgers and dying coach,
you know, after playing basketball for three hours, and we'd
be talking about the same type of stuff and how
could you do it? So I then, because I was
on the road scouting, I was going from Florida to
Los Angeles, which is you know, somebody I told me

(36:03):
just the other day said, well, didn't you just draw
that up in our flight or something on him. I
said no. It was a four and a half hour
flight and we ran out of cocktail nap, but that's
when I started it had his birth there, and the
hard part was linking it up with the coverage. And

(36:25):
the idea was pretty easy that would work, you know,
pressure from the quarterback, and yet he doesn't have the
quick outlet right away any place. And what they were
all trained at that time was if this guy's blitzing,
this guy breaks off, he's going to be wide open.
And they had it down. Walsh was one of the
big motivators in that way to attack the blitzers, and

(36:50):
so I spent a lot of time on it. And
if it hadn't been for coach, weis saying, yeah, go
ahead and do it, because there were several times we
went off the diving board into an empty pool because
it was hard to sink up. And in fact, you
never quit coaching it, and actually until I retired, because

(37:13):
somebody would come up with a pattern that hurt what
you were doing and you had to get the patch
on the leak in the tire. So that's coaching though.
And it did come from Cincinnati and we were running
it in eighty four. I would say it was when
we started running it and I just crossed my fingers

(37:35):
the first time I called it in a preseason game,
and the quarterback took his hot hot key and throw
it to the tight end broken out and Ray Griffin
intercepted it and ran back sixty five yards for a touchdown.
I said, I think we got something there.

Speaker 1 (37:53):
It occurs to me those cocktail napkins would be worth
a lot of money if you had held on to them.

Speaker 2 (37:58):
I think they're all in the toilet, old for Southeast Wyoming.

Speaker 1 (38:03):
Now much more with Dick to come, including something he
would do for Zach Taylor if asked. But first, here's
a quick reminder that the Bengals Booth podcast is brought
to you by pay Corps, proud to be the Bengals
official HR software provider, by Alta Fiber future Proof Fiber
Internet designed to elevate your home, business and community to

(38:25):
a new level, and by Kettering Health the best care
for the best fans. Kettering Health is the official healthcare
provider of the Bengals. So David Fulcher joined the team
at eighty six. How much is he responsible for what
the zone Blitz or the fire Zone ultimately became.

Speaker 2 (38:44):
Oh, he was a prime mover once I kind of
had the formula worked out, and the formula was pretty
sim simple. Mathematically, you could four as a normal rush.
Sometimes people rush three and at the extra cover guy
and in red zone now they're even rushing to Now

(39:04):
it's something I would never do. I'd i'd rush eight
before I ever rushed too. But they do it in
today's game. Uh. But uh, I saw what what we
were working with, and I said, well I can. I
can take five from anywhere as long as I get

(39:26):
containment on the side away from them, and I'm going
to overload protection and and then I can do whatever
I want with that pressure and still have an area
of situation in behind it. So uh, expressing them on
a piece of paper mathematically is easy. But in actual

(39:49):
getting to match up what the offensive coordinators are doing
with their routes and picks and stuff, it was. It
was a task. But when you started getting special athletes,
and I always tried to match our defensive scheme with

(40:11):
the athletes that we had. I I wasn't a strong
proponent of here's the way we're going to do this,
and you learned how to do this wellll not. People
were all different, and we all backpedal different, and we
all turned different and we have different strengths and minuses.
And my thought was, aren't we going to be the

(40:33):
best defense we can be if I'm asking them to
do the things that they do the best? So that
was always was a guy named Force on that. So
but once you got a guy like Folcher who actually
the closer you could get him to the ball, the
more places he was going to make. He was a
fine safety and good in space. One of our best intercepted,
believe it or not, but you put him close to

(40:55):
the line of scrimmage, he was going to cast a problem.
And that's the guy that got me thinking, I can
do anything in the world with this guy and protecting
behind with an area concept, and we can cause some problems.
In the Super Bowl that we lost in eight, that's

(41:16):
not right in eighty eight thinking, I think it was
three to three and a half against the forty nine
ers again and Volture had made ten plays in the
first half. But I had another guy like that in
Pittsburgh by the name of Paula Mala. But see, I

(41:37):
had already been down that road. And those kind of
guys are perfect for this because the opponent's not expecting
the safety to come that much, you know, and when
he does, the other safety had to go to get
over and get his coverage, and then they would just
break him away. That was the way they answered the
safety blitz because they couldn't they couldn't account for everybody

(42:00):
faking around up there and here comes a corner, here
comes a safety. So it's not rocket science, but getting
it put together it took me a little while.

Speaker 1 (42:11):
That eighty eight Super Bowl, super Bowl twenty three, he
only gave up three points through three quarters to Montana
and Rice and that great forty nine ers offense, and
then unfortunately they scored two touchdowns in the fourth including
the game. Whether we're thirty four seconds to go, it's
been thirty seven years. Is there anything about that game
that sticks under your craw to this day.

Speaker 2 (42:32):
Yeah. I had a defense Coach Weis told me, said,
I know when they're going to go to Rice, and
he said, whatever you do, I want you to get
me a defense that'll stop Rice on a particular play.
And I said, okay, coach. So I got it. This
thing where I had three guys on him. One guy
whacked him at the line of scrimmage and another guy

(42:55):
worked outside to the boundary and another guy worked over
in side to the middle of the field. I said,
there's no way they can get a ball in there
to him. So in that last drive that they had
after we ran to kickoff back to take the lead,
we got them either a penalty or a sack, and
they were in first or second down and long and

(43:18):
and coach Weis says, Dick said, this is this is
going to Rice. I said, okay, Coach, I said, because
if I had to put that menu on him, everybody
else had to go man to man, you know. So
I kind of crossed my fingers and I said, here
we go. It's my boss said, And we had them
all bracketed. There were so many Bengals over there, and

(43:40):
one guy broke and hit the other guy, who knocked
the other guy off, and all of our guy fell down,
and of course Rice picked it off and ran over
the middle of the field and got down the bout.
That's how they got down there to get their points.
So I wouldn't call that. I would have dissipayed my
boss's instructions. But it shows you that those types of

(44:03):
games are one play games, and a bounce here or there.
I mean, you could run that play into that defense
fifty times, and maybe Rice would make a fantastic cat
for a twelve yard game. Well he ran it forty yards.
I do remember that Rice was special. He was special.

Speaker 1 (44:25):
You got your head coaching opportunity in two thousand. I
know you didn't win as many games as you would
have liked, but are you glad you got the chance
to run the show?

Speaker 2 (44:33):
Definitely, because I ended up with a forty five year
coaching career and it was getting pretty late at that time,
you know, and I said, well, I'm just gonna have
to be a good defensive backfield coach because that's the
way it is, because it's probably not going to get
my opportunity. And let's face it, when you go into coaching,

(44:53):
you want to be the guy that runs the whole thing.
And so I've always been grateful for that opportunity, and
I think we had things started in the right direction.
They drafted Palmer the next year and went on how
many straight years that they made the playoffs, so they
didn't inherit a completely empty food locker.

Speaker 1 (45:16):
Your first win as a head coach was October twenty second.
Two thousand had featured one of the most incredible individual
performances in NFL history, as Corey Dillon ran for two
hundred and seventy eight yards on a day where the
team only completed two passes. You played and coached in
the NFL for nearly sixty years, was that the best
example of the other team knowing what was coming and

(45:40):
not being able to stop it.

Speaker 2 (45:42):
Yeah. I remember that game. We'd had a terrible start
to the season and we were losing by huge margins,
and it was a pretty dismal locker room, to be
honest with you, and our head coach, Bruce Couslin, I
went came back. I was lucky enough to be a

(46:04):
good friend of Bruce's and I came back to coach
for him with him, and uh, he resigned early in
the year. I think after the second game, the third game.
We've been traumced in all of them, and I said, well,
we're gonna we gotta have something that we can get
our sink our teeth into, at least, I said, because

(46:27):
everybody's down. And uh, I knew we had a good
running back and Corey Dillon and I knew we had
a pretty good offensive line, and uh, you know, the
NFL's a passing league. I said, we're not going to
pass that much. Fellas, we're going to run the football.
We're going to run it down their throat. We're going
to establish what we're going to be. And uh that

(46:48):
team fought that whole year and uh, I think we
got the maybe six did we get the six wins? Uh? Uh?
And uh I was proud of that, the way that
they they battled through that situation. But that day we
played Denver and they were good. They had a tremendous

(47:11):
record and they had only the only video they had
of us. We were throwing the ball forty forty five
times a game, so that's what they were preparing to defend.
And here they came up with this massive off tackle
pound ground and you know, we got some good bounces
and stuff like that, but it fit what we could do.

(47:33):
And a lot of times when the team is going
bad and they lose their coach, the players will come
together and say, hey, this ain't the coach. You know,
this is a group situation. We got to do better,
and it brings home to us how far off the

(47:55):
mark we are, and that group as a whole said,
we're better than than With that point, differential shows. So
we did the best we could do and we only
got two years. As I remember, So got me back
to working on his own blitz, which was pretty good

(48:15):
for me.

Speaker 1 (48:16):
We're visiting with Hall of Famer Dick Lebow. When former
players talk about you, there's a combination of love and respect.
I don't hear very often from players when they talk
about their coaches. How did you manage to connect so
well with your players?

Speaker 2 (48:31):
I don't know the answer to that. I always wanted
to be a coach, which I've spoken to you about,
and I watched coaches, but I said to myself, I
was blessed enough to play fourteen years in NFL, four
years at high State, four years in high school. That's

(48:54):
twenty two years of playing football. I'd seen a lot
of coaching situations. I'd seen a lot of interaction between
coaches and players, and I knew I'd been on the
receiving end of some great coaching and receiving end of
what I thought was not the right way to do something.
But you know, when you're with the team, you do

(49:14):
you got to do it. That's that's step number one.
Everybody does the same thing. It's for the good of
the team. But I said, I know this, when I
get my chance to coach, I'm going to coach the
way I wanted to be coached and the type of
coaching that I reacted to the most. So I had

(49:37):
on the job training all those years of planning. I
was thirty five years old when I started looking for
a job, and they would say, well, you don't have
any experience. I said, oh, well, wait a minute, Wait
a minute, I've been in the factory for thirty five
years here. But that's Mike McCormick, who I met in

(50:01):
the training camp at Oberlin College, I think is where
we trained in Cleveland for the Cleveland Browns, and he
was an All Pro tackle for the Browns offensive captain,
and he was taking his first year as the head
coach at Philadelphia Eagles and he hired me, and I

(50:22):
of course interviewed for a defensive backfield coach, but he
hired me as a special teams coach, which I did
for him, and I was grateful because at that time
it was an entry position and I got my foot
in the door at least. And after that three years,
I don't care if I ever see another punter kick
off as long as I lived, but that's how I

(50:44):
got into coaching.

Speaker 1 (50:46):
You were recently a guest on Cam Hayward's podcast. Despite
loathing the Pittsburgh Steelers, I enjoyed listening to it immensely.
You shared a story that's probably well known in Pittsburgh,
but I had never heard it. It's two thousand and five.
You're the defensive coordinator of the Steelers. It's the final
game of the regular season. The team needs a win

(51:08):
to clinch a wild card playoff berth and that day,
your defensive players showed up wearing throwback number forty four
Detroit Lyons jerseys, your old jersey, as a tribute to you.
I think they paid three hundred bucks apiece to get them.
They were the legitimate jersey. Were you flabbergasted when you

(51:29):
saw your defensive players wearing those?

Speaker 2 (51:32):
Oh well, they didn't wear them that evening, but I
was completely overwhelmed. And what they did was, with the
assist of the equipment managers, they took these fine wood
hangars and they hung my jersey outside of all their lockers,

(51:55):
And when you walked into that locker room to get
ready for the game, could just see forty four La
bau in Honolula blue and silver all around the room,
and it was a it was like something off a
movie scene, you know. And I looked at it and
it's done me and I said, oh my god. I said,

(52:18):
this is so flattering, you know. And I went and
I didn't do it. I just stumbled into my locker room,
coaches locker room back in the corner, and I sat
there for a minute. I said, oh, I said, I'm
not sure this is real good. So I went down
and I got our our captain's Larry Foot and James Fergir.

(52:40):
I said, get everybody together, so all the defense came in.
I said, man, I said this this is overwhelming to me,
and it's just such a great honor. But I'm going
to tell you one thing. We better win this damn game.
I said. I may not even have a job, but

(53:04):
I wrote a book about the eight defense that set records.
I don't think are ever going to be touched because
of the way they played defense and the rules of
the game in today's NFL, but that particularly a group
of guys. They were just strong in every position and
they gave up no big plays. I don't think it's
going to happen, happen again. And there were a lot

(53:25):
of quotes in that book from the guys that I coached,
and it was the same feeling I got reading that
that I got that night when I saw those jerseys
sitting around there. And I can say this, all I
ever wanted to do as a coach was to have

(53:46):
my players accept me the way they did now. The
age differential. I never gave that a thought because I
knew I had to back the background and the exposure
to instruct people on defensive football. I mean, that's all

(54:07):
I'd done all my life, and I was always confident
that I could help any player that I saw. I
would study him athletically. They're all fairly gifted athletically, or
they wouldn't be in training camp in an NFL football team.
But we all have strength and we all have weaknesses,

(54:28):
and I would try to get everyone in a position
where they could apply their strengths and minimize their weaknesses.
And I over the period, I mean, just think how
many plays and movies and game films I'd been through.
I could help kids. And I found out that when

(54:50):
you're helping an athlete, he didn't care how old you are.
He wants to be better, he wants to get his
turn in the spotlight to So that's my only answer
for my longevity. That I could help them. I could.
I knew when I was telling them, and generally speaking,
in a game, after getting burnt enough myself personally on

(55:15):
the field and getting beat a lot in those years
with the Bengals and those we lost quite often, you
learn a lot, and you, if you're smart enough, you
just learned from what you can learn from and forget
the rest of it and go on to the next game,
the next play. And that stood me in good stead

(55:39):
because almost anything they were doing that hurt us. I knew.
I knew, I'd seen it before, I'd been hurt by
it before, and I knew how to stop it. I
just didn't have it prepared for that game because it
was by surprise, so I could adjust it pretty quick
and it kept me employed for a long time.

Speaker 1 (55:58):
So for the record, you did win regular season finale
with the Jerseys in two thousand and five, and then
the following week you beat the Bengals with Pittsburgh in
the playoff game in Cincinnati where Carson Palmer got hurt.
I've got to ask you about something. After that game,
Bill Kawer mockingly did a Woday chant in the locker
room celebrating the win for Pittsburgh. Was that a little

(56:21):
uncomfortable for you just because of your Bengals ties?

Speaker 2 (56:26):
Well at that particular time. No, because when my paycheck
came out on Monday, it had a Rooney not Brown
on the bottom line. But I still favored today the
Detroit Lions, Pittsburgh Steelers, and the Cincinnati Bengals. Those are

(56:51):
my three teams. I root equally hard so much in
my life in those three low cows. When they play
each other, I can't lose, and that's the only way
I know, because they were all so instrumental. And what

(57:12):
ended up. You know, I still can't believe it to
say this, but by golly, I do every now and then.
I'm in the Hall of Fame. Man. I can't believe it.
And it's all a product of where I've been, in
the fact that the Good Lord gave me a memory
that I could remember when I screwed up.

Speaker 1 (57:33):
A few more questions for Dick Lebow. I was playing
in a charity golf tournament a couple of years ago,
and I was on the same team as Jimmy Burrow,
and when he heard that you were playing in that event,
he stepped down the accelerator on that golf car. We
went racing over several holes so that he could catch
up with you. Tell me about your connection with Jimmy Burrow,

(57:54):
and then obviously what you think of his son, Joe.

Speaker 2 (57:59):
Well, I think the most accurate passer that I've ever seen,
and I go back to the nineteen fifties in Norm
Van Brocklin and Johnny Uniteds and those guys that they
couldn't move to get out of their way, but they
could throw that ball through the eye of a needle. Again,
there were thirty one players on the teams, and there

(58:21):
were two quarterbacks on There were twelve teams, so there
were twenty four quarterbacks in America that could pass the
ball accurately enough to have a job. Those guys were fantastic.
Burrow as the most accurate guy I've ever seen, and
that college team that won the national championship, it was

(58:44):
unfair and Joe would just put that ball and those guys,
they were all gifted, and that was I'm glad I
didn't have the assignment of trying to Curtail, and let's
put it that way. I've always been a huge fan
of Joe Burrow, and I've never got the meeting. Every

(59:05):
time it's going to happen, something comes up, but I'll
get a meeting before it's over. I know, Jimmy is
one of my favorite players that I ever coached. Like
I said earlier, in the National Football League, the coaches
did a lot of the scouting. They didn't have the
staffs that they had, they didn't have the money that

(59:27):
they had to pay all the people they've gotten now.
And when the season was over, you got a week
and then you started getting ready for the draft, and
you traveled once once you got closer to the draft
time and work these players out. And that's how the
combine came about. That people were spending all this money
flying all around the country was bring them in to

(59:50):
the Central's point and that's how that happened. But I
would look at video and see the players that I
wanted to go see, and Jim Burrow was a safety
for Nebraska, and he wasn't very big, and he was
tougher nails and smarter than tomorrow. And those are just

(01:00:14):
the kind of players that I found that you win
with you win with players that are unselfie tough and smart.
And I don't mean that they can split an atom
or anything like that. They're football smart and they they're
intuitive and they can react to range of motion and angles,
and that's all the secondary play is. So I went

(01:00:38):
out and met Jim Burrow and he's just a very
impressive person. And I knew what his coaching staff thought
of him. And he was maybe not big, but he
never missed his tackling. He was such an aggressive player

(01:00:58):
and he went after it with so much aff. He
always got his sky down. So going back and getting
ready for the draft and everything, he said, why are
you Burrow? You got him up here up here? I said,
I think he can play, and I think he just
played one year in America, but he played like nine
or ten I think in up in Canada, and I

(01:01:19):
think he could have played. I never was in a
position enough to give him another job. But when Jim
retired from playing, his former college coach came to IIU
in Athens, and Jim went down there to run his
defense for the coach's defense for him. And that's how

(01:01:40):
Joe Burrow as a youngster a toddler, came to grow
up in Athens, OHI and become mister football for Ohio.
So I knew Joe long before Joe knew anything about
Dick Lebo because of who his dad was. And I
followed Ohio you and Jimmy was a fantastic coach and

(01:02:03):
had great defenses. And then Joe went to Ohigh State
and they lost him to LSU and he became I
think the best college quarterback passer that they would ever be.
I mean, he never threw a bad ball, and the
more important it was, the more he produced. So I've

(01:02:25):
always had a family interest in that group, and I
want to meet Jim's wife also because I only know
Jim and the whole day Gum family, but I love
them all.

Speaker 1 (01:02:35):
All right, Robin and Joe, if you're listening, Dick Lebeu
wants to meet the both of you. Dick, you famously
used to recite the poem Twas the Night before Christmas
by memory for your players in Pittsburgh for many many years,
and the whole thing so it takes like six or
seven minutes to recite. You live in Cincinnati now. If
Zach Taylor called you in December and asked you if

(01:02:57):
you would be willing to share that with his players,
would you consider it?

Speaker 2 (01:03:02):
Oh, I'd do it in a minute, I do it.
That's a that's a poem for my family. When I
was a kid growing up, most our family was matriarch driven.
My dad was a great dad, but the women were
the organizers and the planters. And he had three sisters

(01:03:24):
and my mom and Christmas was we didn't have anything.
But you would have never believe that when Christmas came around,
you thought we were the Rockefellers. I mean, the women
would go into dead all year long so that they
could buy presents for the kids. And I wanted to

(01:03:47):
thank them for instilling the spirit of Christmas and the
goodwill to men, and and hey, it's a big planet
and there's a lot of people on it, but there's
room for everybody if we'll just take consideration for each other.
And I wanted them to know that I got the message.
And I said, well, I know what I'll do. I'll
learn the poem the night before Christmas. Well, I didn't

(01:04:10):
realize how many verses there where. It took me a
long time, but I started saying it for my family,
and then I always preached to our players that a
team is a family, and the family is the team.
I said, I should say the night before Christmas for
my defense. That's the only thing that I had the

(01:04:30):
authority to mandate, so I would do it for the defense.
And Bill Cowher said to me, he said, Coach said,
I heard that you said the night before Christmas for
the defense. I said I did. He said, why didn't
you do it for the whole team. I said, well, Coach,
I didn't think that was probably my call. He said, oh,

(01:04:52):
I want you to do it again, Okay, I said yeah.
So I started doing it actually for the old team
in Cincinnati and then in Pittsburgh also, and most of
those kids that I coach that you know, you drop
out of sight, they go all over the country, but
when you meet eventually the first question out of their

(01:05:14):
mouth are you still seeing the night before Christmas? And the
answer is yes, I still am. It's just a family thing.
I love Christmas, I love consideration for your fellow man. Basically,
that's how I look at it, all, right.

Speaker 1 (01:05:30):
Final question. I do a segment every week on the
pregame show called fun Facts that ends with this question,
if you could meet anybody in history, living or deceased.
Who would that person be? It might be Ben Hogan. I

(01:05:53):
got to say hell oh to him one time. He
was notorious for being focused on the golf course. He
never even spoke to the guys he was playing with.

Speaker 2 (01:06:01):
And when they first built the golf course in Akron
that there's still a hole major League golf tournaments on.
I drove up there to see him, and I ended
up before it was over. I followed him, I think
four different rounds on four different golf tournaments, but on
this particular one on the thirteenth hole, he never missed

(01:06:27):
a fairway, but he drove this ball over into the
rough on the right, and you know the fairways and
Russ roped off at PGA tournament. So I saw there
was nobody going down the right side of this road
this hole because it was so far out of the
way from where the course pattern went back to the left.
And I took off. I saw where the ball ended up,

(01:06:49):
and I said, I'm going down there because he's got
to do something. That ball's right at the rope. So
I was about three feet away from his golf ball,
and I was the only person over there and there
was a rope in me and Hogan and his caddy
can walking up and the ball was ugly down in

(01:07:09):
this rough down. Behind him, he was in the middle
of a bunch of trees and he had a little
tree in front of him, and then a higher tree,
oh about seventy five yards on up the fairway from that,
and in this in this day and age, it was
like a four hundred and sixty yard part four, which
is today's only driving an ad arm for him, but
it was more than that then. So I'm not moving

(01:07:33):
and I know they're going to move me. But so
he walked up. I could see in his bag and
I saw the club he took out. But he as
he walked up, he looked at me and he said,
that's not very good, is it? Looking at his lie
And I said, no, sir, mister Hogan, it's not very good.
I baby. It wasn't like a conversation or nothing. He

(01:07:54):
just turned away and he walked up. Because there were
people on the green. He smoked a cigarette all the
time then, and he's up there smoking a cigarette and
waiting until they got off the greame. It took maybe
seventy eight minutes before they could clear the green. He
walked back to that golf ball. He took out this
little dinky ass five wood type club. I don't know

(01:08:17):
what it was, but of course I said, Hogan on it,
and he just threw that cigarette on the ground, stepped
up there. He wired that golf ball out underneath the tree,
out of that long rough underneath the tree in front
of him, over the tree up and there was a
little walkway up between two big bunkers up to the green,

(01:08:38):
right up through that walkway, right up on the green.
He didn't look back, sake back, picked up a cigarette,
took off that. But he for golfers, he's probably the
greatest mystique character of all, at least wise in my

(01:08:58):
mind as a golf fan.

Speaker 1 (01:09:01):
That gives me chills just picturing Ben Hogan pulling that off.

Speaker 2 (01:09:04):
You should have seen a shot. Yeah, it was unbelievable.
When he hit a golf ball I'd been watching mom up.
It made a different sound than anybody I've ever heard,
and I've heard a lot of great players hit golf.

Speaker 1 (01:09:18):
Balls sweet spot of the club every time.

Speaker 2 (01:09:20):
I swunk every time, It's just a different sound. Dick.

Speaker 1 (01:09:25):
This has been such a pleasure for me. I can't
can't thank you enough. It's just been a joy to
talk to you. I really appreciate your time.

Speaker 2 (01:09:32):
Thank you, Dan. I've admired your work and you're working
with one of my very very dear friends, and Dan
Dave Lapham and the two of you guys. You just
do a great job and I know that you have
the same loyalty to the Brown family and the Bengals
that I have. So good luck to you this.

Speaker 1 (01:09:51):
Year, Pal, I hope you enjoyed that as much as
I did. And that's going to do it for this
episode of the Bengals Booth podcast brought to you by
pay Corps, Proud to be the Bengals Official HR software provider,
by Alta Fiber future proof fiber Internet designed elevate your home,
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(01:10:11):
Health the best care for the best fans. Kettering Health
is the official healthcare provider of the Bengals. If you
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share a comment that helps more Bengals fans find us.
I'm Dan Hord and thanks for listening to the Bengals
Booth Podcast