April 5, 2025 • 35 mins
Dan Hoard talks to Pro Football Focus analyst Dalton Wasserman about the upcoming draft and why he ranked Cincinnati #1 in the league in a specific draft category.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi, get everybody. I'm Dan Hord and thanks for downloading
The Bengals Booth Podcast ba SO Pick Me Up edition,
as I discussed the upcoming NFL Draft and other Bengals
related topics with Pro Football Focus analyst Dalton Wasserman. The
Bengals Booth Podcast is brought to you by pay Corps,
Proud to be the Bengals official HR software provider, by
(00:26):
Alta Fiber future proof fiber Internet designed to elevate your home,
business and community to a new level, and by Kettering
Health the best care for the best fans. Kettering Health
is the official healthcare provider of the Bengals. Now here's
a quick reminder that you can have the latest edition
of this podcast delivered right to your phone, tablet, or
(00:47):
computer by subscribing wherever you get your podcasts. It's the
greatest thing since Matt Franco. I was in Las Vegas
this week for a college basketball tournament and had the
opportunity to see magician Matt Franco. If you haven't heard
of him, he won America's Got Talent several years ago
(01:07):
and now has his own show called Magic Reinvented nightly
at The Link Hotel and casino on the Las Vegas Strip.
I love magicians, and I have seen a lot of
the big names over the years, and this was the
best show I have ever seen with one how the
hell did he do that? Illusion? After another? If you
(01:29):
want to see what I mean, do a quick YouTube
search for Matt Franco. That's Matt with one T. And
if you travel to Las Vegas, by all means, go
see the show. And after you do, tell me how
he does the thing with the Ramen noodles. The NFL
Draft is less than three weeks away, making it a
(01:51):
great time to have Pro Football Focus analyst Dalton Wasserman
on the show. In addition to writing about the NFL,
Dalton co host the PFF College Football Show and has
great insight on players in this year's draft that the
Bengals are likely considering. He also caught my attention this
week with an article that had the Bengals ranked number
(02:12):
one of any team in the NFL. Taltony recently wrote
about the NFL teams that have done the best and
the worst in the first round of the draft of
the last five years, and the Bengals came out on top.
Now that time period begins with the Joe Burrow draft,
so I guess we shouldn't be surprised, but what do
you think of the five first round draft picks they've
(02:35):
made since twenty twenty overall?
Speaker 2 (02:38):
I mean, look, when you look at the statistics behind it, right,
it's going to come down to the fact that Joe
Burrow and Jamar It's Chase are obviously two of the
elite players in football. Right, So when you look at
something like PFF war I had split things up between
offensive and defensive PFF grades. At this time you're looking at, Okay, well,
Burrow's been the second most valuable player per PFF four
(02:58):
and football behind Patrick Mahomes, and Jamar Chase is one
of the best receivers in football, so the stats are
a little bit tilted. They obviously could do a little
bit better job when it comes to drafting defensive players.
And we'll see about Amarius Mims, you know, going into
his second year on the offensive line and be a
huge help if he you know, got a lot better
this year at right tackle as well. I know that
you know, last year had some injuries and things to
(03:19):
start out, but I think it's exactly what represents the
Bengals right now is their offense between Burrow and Chase
and obviously te Higgins as well in the second round
the same year as Burrow.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
They having a e leite.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Offense right and they have even some holes there that
they could still get better with with their interior offensive
line and even the running game. But defensively, as we
all know, you know, whether they keep Trey hendrickson or not,
and however, the rest of the defense is going to
be built with Al Golden running it. Now, they've got
to get better. I think it's obviously the Bengals. We
all know offensively they can beat anybody. Defensively lately, they
(03:53):
can get beat by anybody. That's kind of how it works,
and that's because they haven't had that much success throughout
the draft.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Let's circle back to last year's first round pick, A
Marius Mims. I think it's been popular among analysts, a
lot of PFF people that I've talked to in recent
years to say that you don't necessarily have to be
great on the offensive line. The key is not to
have any huge liabilities. But I saw a clip from
another podcast you were on recently where you made the
(04:20):
case that elite pass protection is actually critical. Explain why
very much so.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
I mean seven of the last eight Super Bowl champions
have ranked inside the top seven of our pass blocking grade, right, So,
it really it's coming down to more and more, especially
with the talent you know of edge rushers and even
defensive lineman. Now as you saw Philadelphia Eagles this year,
you have to be able to protect your quarterback in big,
big situations.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Right.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Teams with bad offensive lines are not winning Super Bowls anymore.
It's extremely hard, both in the past game and the
run game. Right we saw obviously the Eagles this year
have that balance. They had that balance of Saquon Barkley
in the run game too. But you talk about a
team like the Bengals, who I believe had the third
worst pass rushing grade as a team or sorry, pass
blocking grade as a team this year, You're just not
(05:08):
gonna win like that, right because you've got too many
teams that have too good of a pass rush as
well when you get into these big spots, when you
get into conference title games, when you get into the
Super Bowl. Right, So, I think it's something that really
needs to be improved. And obviously, are you going to
have five superstars, not necessarily, but if you're looking at
having a really good offensive line, you probably need something
(05:28):
like two superstars and then three solid players who can
fill the other three spots and at least be, say
by our standards, in the low sixty or in the
high sixties or low seventies. You're talking about it's going
to be hard to have holes on the offensive line,
and you need to have better pass protection than they have.
So for as much as the talk has been about
the Bengals improving their defense, their on line, especially in
the interior, still needs improvement if they're going.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
To go all the way.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Of those last five first round draft picks, Miles Murphy
is the guy who's probably the biggest question mark at
this point. I guess you could say Dak Sill because
of the injury, but he was playing really well before
he got hurt last year. What did you think of
Miles Murphy coming out of Clemson and should Bengals fans
anticipate a big step forward this year if he gets
more playing time.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
You would hope so.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
I mean, coming out of Clemson, he was very raw, right,
You knew he always had a lot of potential at Clemson.
Never quite hit that peak, and that's why he went
later in the first round, more so because of his
talent than his production. And I mean, they could really
use they could really use that help off the edge now.
And I know there's been a lot of talk about
them drafting an edge rusher in the first round again
because you know, Murphy's had a slow start during the
(06:36):
first two years of his career. Plus you know, Trey
Hendrickson obviously on the trade block. But you know, Murphy,
it's tough to tell right now, just you just haven't
seen a big impact through his first two years. He
does have a lot of physical talent, but the polish
has to be there. And I think this is a
big make or break year for him as it comes to,
you know, possibly being a starter, especially if Hendrickson gets traded.
(06:57):
They've got to figure out we already know this entire
defensive line, but Murphy has to play a much bigger
role than he has the first two years.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
PFF analyst Dalton Loserman is our guest. I mentioned and
then that recent article about the first round draft picks,
you ranked the best and the worst teams. The Bengals
came out on top. The Raiders came out last prior
to the brock Bauers pick last year. It's almost comically
bad how lousy Las Vegas is drafted in the first round.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Yeah, even with brock Bauers involved.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
You look at again PFF War and they were number
one on the bottom when it comes to PFF War
from the first round picks over the last five years.
And that's because obviously at Henry Ruggs who didn't work
out and had all field issue, same thing with Damon
Arnet at corner. Alex Bleatherwood was a reach at the time,
and Tyreek Wilson just hasn't been able to put it
(07:50):
together again. Kind of the same case as Miles Murphy.
Miles Murphy where he's an extremely talented pass rusher but
doesn't have the polish and hasn't put it all together yet. So,
I mean, Bowers pick this past year obviously, but the
Raiders and that's why I look, they're picking in the
top eight again. They're still trying to figure it out,
especially on defense and other than Max Crosby. This past year,
the defense was a mess, right, especially in coverage, So
(08:12):
they're really trying to figure that out. And I mean,
you see it you know, I look at the bottom
five teams here and you look at you know, the
Raiders haven't had much success the last five years. The
Tennessee Titans, and now they're picking first again because they
haven't had success in this draft. The Rams are an
exception because it was their first draft pick Jared Versus
the first first round draft pick since twenty sixteen. And
then the New Orleans Saints the same thing. They're picking
(08:34):
in the top ten and slowly declining as a team
because they haven't drafted well lately. So it's just, you know,
you look at these teams, a lot of them that
are in the top eight to ten in this year's draft,
and you go, well, it makes a lot of sense
that they're struggling and they're picking near the top again
because they haven't drafted well in recent years.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
You need those young players.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
You need to find premier talent in the first round
to continue to get better.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Let's circle back to the Bengals offensive line, that blueprint
that you kind of describe ideally with a couple of
superstars and then three good guys as well. I don't
know if Orlando Brown Junior and Amrius Mims are superstars
at least not yet in Mems case, but they're very
solid at tackle. I don't think anybody would dispute that
Ted Kerris is a solid center. The guard spots are
(09:17):
the question mark. They have added Lucas Patrick in free agency,
but how high of a draft pick do you think
the Bengals should use on a guard.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
I think there's a pretty good sweet spot on day
two between pick number forty nine and in the second round,
when you talk about maybe somebody like Donovan Jackson, if
a from Ohio State, if he were available. Maybe I
don't know that Tyler Booker will go that low, but
if Tyler Booker were ever available in the second round
at number forty.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
Nine, you'd be looking pretty good.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
And then at number eighty one in the third round,
I think you're talking there a pretty good spot when
you talk about maybe a Tate Ratledge from Georgia, Luke
Candra from the you know locally here from the University
of Cincinnati, I think would be a good help. I
think rounds two through four for interior offensive lineman, whether
it be a guard or center, that's really gonna be
the sweet spot. I don't know that there's any first
(10:08):
rounders that would be worth the seventeenth overall pick. I
wouldn't say so unless they feel like there's somebody that
could transfer from tackle to the interior. But more likely
rounds two through four would be a good spot. I
know this look, there's gonna be a lot of talk
about defense and needing to build a defense, but they
need to help on the interior offensive line. I think
forty nine, eighty one and one nineteen, where the Bengals
are looking at in rounds two through four, would be
(10:30):
a good spot to be looking for interior offensive linemen.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
If they use one of those picks on a guard,
is that enough? Brandon Sheriff is still out there in
free agency? There are still some other names still out
there in free agency. What do you think draft a starter,
try to draft a starter and see what you've got,
or also still go out there and get another bet.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
I think the more open competition that they have at
both of those guard spots the better, right because right now,
when you're looking at, you know, competition between Courtell Versa
Vols and Cody Ford, Lucas Patrick, I mean, it's just
it's tough. That's not the best crew. Even if you're
talking about an open competition there, So would it even
(11:10):
shock me if they drafted two interior guys, maybe even
a late round center, maybe in the fifth or sixth round. Also,
it wouldn't shock me that much. But I think post
draft they should look at least one more veteran to
see if they can improve among that group, because it's
just not it's not enough, right and you still need
to protect Joe Burrow. I know he can process better
than almost any quarterback in football, but it would really
(11:31):
help to have more of an open competition because we
know these guys don't have the highest ceiling that.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
They have currently.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
PFF analyst Dalton Wasserman is our guest. You can follow
him an X at PFF Underscore. Dalton, you published a
mock draft earlier this week when it was the Bengals
turn to pick seventeenth. Overall, there were several top edge
defenders available, mikel Williams, Mike Green, James Pierce, and some others.
(11:57):
There were good defensive tackles on the board can it Grant,
Walter Nolan, Derek Harmon. Some of the top guards were there.
Tyler Booker, who you mentioned earlier. Grey's Abel was still
on the board, Michigan cornerback Well Johnson was on the board.
You did choose an edge. It was a guy haven't
mentioned yet. Combine star Shamar Stewart of Texas A and
(12:18):
m Why was he your pick?
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Yeah, I think it's tough right now, especially if whether
or not they're going to sign Trey Hendrickson. I think Stuart,
if Hendrickson were to stay, Stuart would be a really
good compliment to Henderson, being that Hendrickson, I should say,
being that he's the great pass rusher and Stuart is
a really good run defender. Right there's at least very
raw as a pass rusher, needs a lot of development there,
(12:41):
but very good as a run defending compliment to Hendrickson
if that were the case that he stayed. Now, I
think there's also a part to me where Stuart is
extremely talented and the Bengals almost I almost feel like
they need to take that swing right if they're gonna
have so much to the of the cap go you know,
towards four P with Burrow, Chase Higgins, impossibly Hendrickson, they
(13:03):
almost need to take that home run swing on a
guy like Shamar Stewart who has an extremely high ceiling right,
And you know, I think that's the thing is raising
the ceiling on this.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
Defense right now.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
They could make they can make a safer pick if
they could took if they took a Kenneth Grant or
somebody like that, I think that's a safer pick. You
know what you're getting in run defense. But it feels
like the Bengals, I think they need to take a
little bit more of a risk than some other teams
right because they're just missing talent at certain spots on defense,
especially now with Sam Hubbard retiring, not much to work
with off the edge. And I know it's a similar
(13:35):
pick to maybe a Miles Murphy and it hasn't worked
so far through his first two years, but they need
to take a gamble to really see, Okay, if we
can get somebody to max out potential like Shamar Stewart,
who might even go earlier than the seventeenth pick, they
could raise the ceiling on this defense and really really
changed how it can look on defense. Because they just
to take a safer pick, I don't know how much
(13:59):
better it can make their defense immediately, right, and they
really need this window where they're going to have Burrow
and Chase and Higgins all signed. They need to think
an impact player, they need to take a chance on defense.
That's why Stuart as a higher ceiling player, maybe higher
risk Hyrieward I think makes a lot of sense at seventeen.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
I have been looking at a lot of mock drafts
and I would say the three names most frequently mocked
to the Bengals are Stuart, Green and Pierce. What do
you think of those other two guys if they were
to go than that direction?
Speaker 2 (14:29):
I think both of them make a lot of sense too,
obviously a little bit smaller. And then I think the
hardest part for me to project with the Bengals is
which type of player that Al Golden would want. Is
it going to be more of a stand up guy
that matches, you know, along with Trey Hendrickson like they've
had with lou Anarimo in past years, or is it
going to be the classic defensive end more like Shamar Stewart.
(14:49):
Because you're talking about very very different players, right, and
they're all very talented players. But Stuart's a more classic
defensive end, whereas Green and Pierce are lighter to forty
five two hundred and fifty pounds stand up outside linebackers.
Speed rushers for sure, especially James Pierce very much a
speed rusher who is kind of raw. He's got a
boatload of talent, but it's different than Stuart. You don't
(15:10):
have as great a run defender. And obviously Mike Green
also coming from Marshall, different level of competition, still a
dominant player in the Sunbelt, but you're looking at it
different type. So I think it depends on what Golden
is looking for. It's hard to tell because I don't
know that he's necessarily gonna run his defense exactly the
same as he did at Notre Dame. It was very aggressive,
whole lot of man coverage, whole lot of four man fronts.
(15:31):
So's it's the hard part for me. That's the hard
part predicting for me is the Bengals and how al
Golden wants to run his defense and how much different
that's gonna be with loulannar Erumo. I think if it
was leu Ana Rumo still I think actually the pick
would be Mike Green because he likes the stand up
edge rushers. But I can't be one hundred percent sure
on that. Those are two very good players, though Green
(15:51):
and Pierce, extremely athletic, great get off. I have them
as the second and third best edge in that order,
Green and Pierce among the edge defenders. But it's gonna really,
it's really hard to predict right now where Golden's gonna
want to go, assuming they go with a defensive player
with that first pick.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
You co host the PFF College Football Show, so I'm
sure you've watched a lot of Notre Dame over the
past few years. What stood out to you about Al
Golden's defenses.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
The aggressiveness and the confidence, especially in coverage and in
the secondary. This year they ran I believe, I want
to say it was either number one or in the
top three of the most man coverage in the country
this past year. I believe close to sixty percent. It
only ramped up during their you know, during their playoff run,
and they were just absolutely lights out right. When you
(16:39):
talk about guys like Ben Morrison, guys like the true
freshman Leonard Moore on the outside that we're going to
talk about over the next two years and get into
the twenty twenty seven drafts, Xavior Watts at free safety
is another one that's gonna get a lot of talk.
I think he's a second round pick, and they just
they just had such an aggressive and dominant secondary. That's
what really jumped out to me. Now, I don't think
(17:00):
they'll run quite as much man coverage in the NFL
because you don't see teams that run sixty percent man
coverage in the NFL very much, an adjustment like defensive
coordinator Jeff Hafley made for the Green Bay Packers. He
were in a similar system at Boston College. Runs more
zone coverage in Green Bay, but still wants to get
aggressive here and there. That's what really sticks out the
most is the coverage and just the ability to shut
(17:21):
teams down man to man. I think it's not gonna
be quite as often in the NFL, and it's just
not how that works. But I think that's where it's
gonna start us with the coverage. And obviously, look, you
need help obviously on the defensive line in the NFL.
But if he can get that four man rush going
maybe here and there, get blitz heavy and a lot
of press man coverage, it's gonna look a little bit
more aggressive. It's definitely gonna look different than lou An Aroma,
(17:43):
who runs a lot of a lot of zone.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
They signed TJ. Slayton to be a run stopping defensive tackle.
They re signed B. J. Hill last year. They drafted
Chris Jenkins and McKinley Jackson, two more defensive tackles. How
big of a need is defensive tackle at this point?
Speaker 2 (18:01):
I think it's I think it would be big to
find a pass rush compliment to those guys. But I
also think it's a deep defensive tackle class and that's
something they could find in the middle rounds. The more
I think about, you know, like you mentioned those two
guys that they sign, plus Chris Jenkins as a second
round pick last year, and plus you know again the
change to a different style of defense, it's if it's
going to be a four man defensive front instead of
(18:23):
a lot of five man like lou Anrimo used to use.
I don't think, I really don't think they're taking a
defensive tackle in the first round.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
I think they're gonna look.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
More in the depth, more through the depth of it,
maybe a third round type of guy like a Omar
Norman Lot from Tennessee or an Annis Peebles who's more
of a pass rush specialist than the run defender. Like
the run defenders that they all have on this team already,
but I do think it's still in need. I think
an interior pass rusher to rotate in and play maybe
(18:52):
twenty to twenty five snaps a game right now could
be found on you know, early or late day two,
or even even in the round four. When you talk
about how deep this defensive tackle class is, I don't
think they're going to do it first round, considering the
resources they spent recently. I think that'll be more likely
an edge player or possibly someone in the secondary. I
still think it's possible that they could look there if
(19:12):
there's someone they like, but it is a need. I
think it's a need more towards a specialized pass rusher.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
More to come with Dalton Wasserman, including his take on
the Trey Hendrickson situation. But first, a quick reminder that
the Bengals Booth podcast is brought to you by paid Core,
Proud to be the Bengals official HR software provider by
Alta Fiber future proof fiber Internet designed to elevate your home,
business and community to a new level, and by Kettering
Health the best care for the best fans. Kettering Health
(19:42):
is the official healthcare provider of the Bengals, Dalton Losserman
is our guest, and that recent mock draft where you
chose Shamar Stewart seventeenth overall. You posted a picture of
a three round Bengals mock draft. You had linebacker Demetrius
Knight out of South Carolina as their second round pick,
and offensive lineman Tate Rutledge, whom you mentioned earlier out
(20:05):
of Georgia is your third round pick. If that were
the case, Stewart might be the least likely to start
the first round pick because of the positional needs at
linebacker and guard. Do you think that the Bengals need
to come out of this draft with starters about those
two positions?
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Yeah, I would say so at those two positions. I mean,
especially if you're talking about now. Jermaine Pratt is still
obviously on the ruster, but we've been assuming for a
while that he's going to be gone. And Demitrius Knight
in the second round is somebody I think with an
established middle linebacker like Logan Wilson already on that defense,
I think this is one of the teams that he
could go to. He's a perfect week side that will linebacker.
(20:45):
I think you talk about playing a similar position to say,
like the way Drake Greenlaw played against or I should say,
with Fred Warner in San Francisco. I think that's a
nice fit for him to not have to handle. He's
not a middle linebacker. Team that already has an established
middle linebacker like Logan Wilson that could fit. He's got
enough speed in coverage. He's not the most physical player,
(21:07):
but he's very fast. He can run sideline the sideline,
and he's very good in coverage.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
So I think.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Linebacker if we're still assuming that Jermaine Pratt is getting
either traded or cut at some point. I know they
signed orin Berks, but he's more of a third guy
that can rotate in or give you a spot start.
I think Knight could immediately start as that week side guy,
that new week side guy next to Logan Wilson.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
And then at guard.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Yeah, I think Tate Ratledge in the third round would
be a perfect fit. I think actually there's a chance
he could immediately start. Extremely athletic, extremely clean pass protector,
and I think that has to be the priority when
you're talking about a team built around Joe Burrow and
a decent run blocker, right, I mean that, Look, the
Bengals had one of the worst run blocking grades for
us in the entire league, so anything's better than what
they had last year. I think Ratledge would walk in
(21:49):
and start, most likely at right guard.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Right away, you mentioned Luke Candra, earlier Cincinnati kid who
wound up his college career at the University of Cincinnati.
Similar story for running back Corey Kiner started out at
LSU finished. Did you see those are probably the two
Bearcats most likely to get picked. If they're not drafted,
there's certainly going to be in NFL camps. What do
(22:11):
you think of Candra and Kiner?
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Candra, I think is somewhere between a third and fourth
round pick. I think he's very consistent, plays a little high.
He's a taller player, I think it's six five sixty
six as a guard, but a good athlete, a fundamentally
sound player, especially in zone blocking schemes. And I don't
know that he necessarily is the best fit in as
far as run scheme goes for the Bengals. But even then, look,
they need anything they could get if they took him,
(22:35):
you know, in the in the third round there at
eighty one, or even if they found a chance to
get him in the fourth round. I still think he'd
be a nice talented pick. I think I think he's
a possible starter, maybe not necessarily first year, but possibly
if a team were thin. I think about the Seattle
Seahawks as well for him. But I think somewhere in
that mid to l eight to fourth round range, I
think Candra is going. And then Kinder's a guy in
a deep running back class who hasn't been talked about
(22:58):
a whole whole lot, right. I mean, there's so much
money backs that we've talked about. I think because of its,
you know, being such a thicker class, he could be
more of a fifth or six round pick. But he
was one of the leaders in college football this past
year in miss tackles force. He runs hard, he's got
good vision, he likes to get north and south quickly.
I think you're gonna see him more as a mid
to late day three pick, but still possibly a solid
(23:19):
early down runner. I think there's a little bit missing
as far as the receiving game the passing game, and
that's in part because Cincinnati wasn't the best passing team
and didn't design a whole lot for him.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
But I think when you talk about an.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Early down complimentary, just aggressive, hard hitting back, I think
this definitely. I think Corey Kiner is getting drafted. I
think he's just somebody who hasn't gotten mentioned a whole
lot because there's so many backs that are going in
this draft.
Speaker 3 (23:41):
But he's one of those guys. I keep saying it.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
I think through even the fifth or sixth round, there's
going to be good running backs drafted, and he's one
of them. On the back end of that, somebody's gonna
take him. He's going to get a chance to make
a roster.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Tal Wasserman from Pro Football Focus is our guest. The
Bengals and Trey Hendrickson at the moment do not appear
to be close to a deal. What should the Bengals
do in your opinion?
Speaker 2 (24:04):
I mean, personally, I would find a way to negotiate
and keep him. I mean, he's by far the best
defensive player on this team. He's one of the elite
pass rushers in football. And I mean even with him,
the defense obviously is kind of a mess and they're
trying to figure it out and figure out this draft.
But to lose an elite pass rusher like that then
(24:25):
you're just talking about starting from scratch on this defense,
and it just seems it seems tough to think that
the negotiations are so hard, not get it, trying to
work the salary cap and all of that, but it's
just to lose a guy of that caliber. Would I
think it's devastating because then you look at their defensive
line and you go, Okay, now we can't rush the
passer either, and what do we do with this first
(24:46):
round pick, and what do we do with this entire draft?
And obviously if they trade him, they'll have more resources,
but it's very, very hard to imagine within the next
two years that you would get another player as productive
as Trey Hendrickson and what he's done for his entire
career with the Bengals and really his entire career in
general with the Saints and the Bengals. Players like him
don't come around that often, right, especially the way in
(25:08):
what he's developed into and leading the league in sacks.
So I would still try to find a way to
keep him. I mean, it's very hard to think that.
You know, it's that thing where you just go, well,
if he's gone, it's not like you're going to find
any better, anything better in the immediate.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
Right, it does.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
You're certainly a better team with Trey Hendrickson on your roster.
It's it's hard to watch the fact you know the
negotiations and how it's been lately and how good he is,
and yet they don't feel like the value matches up
with it. I know he's going to be thirty one
years old, but he's still got a few years left
I think as an elite pass rusher, and I would
be trying to keep him with everything.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
I have, so you don't have much concern about a
big drop off after thirty for pass rushers.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
I think. I think I would say he's got another
three solid years in him as a pass rusher, right,
And he's not an elite run defender anyway. We have
him usually in the mid to high sixty, which is
okay as a run defender. But I think definitely the
way he works and the mileage isn't quite as much
as you might think, because he did play more of
a part time role earlier in his career with the
(26:10):
Saints and then really took on a featured role. And
look past rushers that we see a lot of them
all the time now that are solid into their mid thirties, right,
even if the role maybe declines a little bit. But
if I had to take a guess, I think he
still got probably three more years as a really really good,
close to elite pass rusher. I think that could happen.
And he works. He works his butt off. I mean, honestly,
(26:31):
I'm actually him. You know, he went to Florida Atlantic.
I was actually a Florida Atlantic alumni as well, So
you know, I have people that have known Hendrickson since
he was nineteen years old, and even back then, he
was always the hardest worker. He was just a different player,
even at that school that you know. It's gotten some
players to the NFL too, Devin Singletary and as He's
Al Shier and those guys. But anytime I talked to
(26:52):
someone in FAU that new trade, they were like, Hey,
he's different, He's a different animal. He works his butt off.
He's just constantly at it. The dream is to be
dominant in the NFL, and I don't think that's gonna
stop no matter what they pay him or how old
he gets. He's really gonna squeeze everything he has out
of his career. So I would say, honestly, I think
at least as a pass rusher, he's got another good
three years in him.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
At least the Bengals kept your bar Chase. They kept
t Higgins. We're obviously excited about that. In Cincinnati. Who
won free agency?
Speaker 2 (27:22):
I think about I think New England. You look at
what New England did with their defense, and I know
they got it. They still need to work on the offense,
and that's where I would be going heavy in this
draft is figuring out the offensive side of the ball
around Green around Drake May. I think New England's won
where Mike Rabel's really building that identity with all the
money they spent on defense. And I'll give you the
(27:43):
other one. I really like the Minnesota Vikings. I mean,
you look at all the needs that they had. They
had needs at corner. They found a way to re
sign Byron Murphy. I think Isaiah Rodgers is an underrated signing.
They got Harrison Smith for another year at safety, They
filled in the defensive tackle spot, got some pass rushers
down there that they needed. Interior offensive line was a
big need and they got two guys from the Colts
(28:04):
and Ryan Kelly and Will Fries and I think, especially
when you look at that pass protection, you look at
their offensive line, and now JJ McCarthy's most likely to start,
they are in position to support him as about as
possibly about as well as they possibly can. Right when
you talk about and you know and Ben Johnson is
doing the same thing in Chicago.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
That's another one.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
With all the trades and signings they made on the
offensive line, those are two teams. I look at the
Bears and the Vikings that you look at their young quarterback,
look at their supporting cast, and you go, man, they're
building it right if you're gonna have a young kid
out there who and Williams you could almost argue is
now in his real first year because it was such
a disaster last year with the Bears. Where you go, man,
if they can't succeed in that situation, then it'll really
(28:45):
be on them. But they've made those situations a lot better.
Minnesota sticks out, the Bears stick out, New England sticks out,
and I'll give you one more. They didn't make a
ton of moves, but I think they made the right
moves at Denver Broncos, getting Drake Greenlaw, getting talent know
Hufanga and getting Evan Ingram. Those are three players I
really like them getting that they needed in very specific spots.
I think the Broncos are a team to really look
(29:07):
out for again this coming season.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Who is the Steelers starting quarterback next year? Mason Rudolph,
Aaron Rodgers or TBA.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
I think and everything it sounds like from the Rooneyes
and Mike Tomlin obviously is keeping it keeping everything tight.
I think it's going to be Aaron Rodgers. I think
we're just waiting on We're just waiting on Rodgers to
make his final decision as always and get the actual
negotiations going. And I think, honestly, it would be much
(29:38):
easier for the Steelers for now, because of where they're
drafting and the lack of depth in this draft class
to just take Aaron Rodgers. Maybe you take a mid
round quarterback instead, But I think it would be very
dangerous for them if Rogers, say were to retire, and
now they're looking pick number twenty one, not entirely sure
what they're doing. Is it a trade up possibly for
Shador Sanders? Is it Jack's and Dart, who I think
(30:01):
is very polarizing when it comes to how good he
is and how good he could be in the league.
Is it somebody in the middle rounds? Is it Mason
because I mean, look, Mason Rudolph, Let's face it, that's
a backup, right, He's a backup. If they if they
start this season with Mason Rudolph as the starter, I
think they're in trouble. And I know they got Metcalf
and they have Pickens and Friarmouth, but it makes Rudolph's
a backup. They cannot walk in with him as the starter.
(30:23):
So I think the most likely scenarios it's Aaron Rodgers.
Maybe they draft somebody in the middle rounds to sit
behind him and learn a little bit behind him and Rudolph,
But I would assume Rogers is.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
The guy Colorado just had its pro day. Is Travis
Hunter a wide receiver or a cornerback in the NFL s.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
I'll tell you, I'm I'm the believer that he's so
special that he could play a significant amount of both.
I've been I've been one of and I know it's rare.
It's not even just rares, it's unprecedented. I really have
a belief that he could do something unprecedented late like
place seventy to eighty percent on both sides of the ball,
because I mean what he did at Colorado, he was
(31:02):
an elite player on both sides. That's why he won
the Heisman Trophy. You know, I could argue that he's
the best receiver and the best corner in this draft,
and that's both in one body. I've had a hard
time picking one or the other. I really have because
I think he's that special. I think he could do
a significant amount of both, and I understand the logic
both ways. Look when you talk about a guy who's
been compared at receiver to you know, athletically, to Justin
(31:25):
Jefferson or Odell Beckham junior, you go, oh wow, well
that's that's pretty darn good company. But then you look
at him play corner, and honestly, he's got the potential
to be the best corner in football. That's how good
he is on that side of the ball, especially with
his ball skills and the way he uses his offensive
knowledge on defense right and how that all works. So
I think he's special. I really believe he could be somebody.
(31:46):
To me, I would play him both ways until he can't,
until something doesn't go right, whether he can't stay healthy
enough or it just doesn't work at the NFL level.
I would give him a true shot both ways.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
All right, Final question for PFF analyst Dalton Washerman, shake
your time. I was just in Las Vegas for a
college basketball tournament. The Bengals Super Bowl odds are the
sixth highest of any team. Too high, too low, or
just about right.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
I'm those might be a little high because I need
to see the improvements on their defense and a little
more balance on offense. Now, obviously the floor is there.
If you have Burrow and Chase and Higgins and they're
all healthy, you have a shot. They went nine to
eight this past year, knowing there was four or five
games that came down to the last minute or down
to the very end, and they just couldn't get a stop.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
Right.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
They know they could compete with anybody. It's just it's
a matter of this defense, though, and it's very, very
hard to you know, Like I mentioned the two things.
The pass protection, especially in the interior, it needs to
be a lot better. They need to figure out how
they can fix up this offensive line. And obviously the
defense needs to be a whole lot better. Right, I mean,
you just you're not going to have, you know, a
team that is twenty second in our defensive grading last season,
(32:59):
and earlier in the year was worse than that. They
were in the bottom five, and then they got better
the last five six weeks. Got to it's gotta be
significantly better. So six might be a little high. There's
a lot of there's a lot to fix. I mean,
it's it's hard to even say that they're, you know,
in the argument to be the leader, the favorite in
that division, right you know when you talk about Pittsburgh
is still really good and Baltimore is obviously still gonna
(33:19):
be really good. So that's really the first goals. They
have to find a way to win that division first
and then see where it goes. Their defense has to
get a lot better. I get that Burrow raises the odds,
but six might be a little bit high for me.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
You didn't mention Cleveland as a team that they'll have
to beat in the AFC North.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
That's that's a tougher one. They're certainly not nearly as
close as six.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
I mean, picking second overall the Browns, that's that's tough,
and they have a tough decision with that second overall
pick too, because I mean there's been a lot of
talk about Abdul Carter, possibly a quarterback, possibly Travis Hunter.
But I think the Browns and I think that, you know,
Jimmy Haslam recently admitted this too. Is where it's just
they need to get Watson off the books. They're really
(34:00):
not going to be successful. And until they can get
Watson off the books, maybe they'll have a quarterback this year,
maybe it'll be next year, but they need to just
get through this era and flush it out and reset
the salary cap and figure it out from there. I
think the Browns. I think the Browns is going to
be in for a tough year and we could see
him picking top three to five again next year.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Dalton, you have been prolific in cranking out interesting content
of late on Pro Football Focus. I've enjoyed looking at it.
I'm sure that will continue up until the draft and beyond.
I really appreciate you joining us on the podcast and
keep up the good work.
Speaker 3 (34:33):
Appreciate you, Dan, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
That's going to do it for this episode of the
Bengals Booth podcast, brought to you by pay Core. Proud
to be the Bengals Official HR software provider by Alta
Fiber future proof fiber Internet designed to elevate your home,
business and community to a new level, and by Kettering
Health the best care for the best fans. Kettering Health
is the official healthcare provider of the Bengals. If you
(34:57):
haven't done so already, please subscribe to this podcast and
if you have a minute, give it a rating or
share a comment that helps more Bengals fans find us.
I'm Dan Horde and thank you for listening to the
Bengals Booth podcast.
Hi, get everybody. I'm Dan Hord and thanks for downloading
The Bengals Booth Podcast ba SO Pick Me Up edition,
as I discussed the upcoming NFL Draft and other Bengals
related topics with Pro Football Focus analyst Dalton Wasserman. The
Bengals Booth Podcast is brought to you by pay Corps,
Proud to be the Bengals official HR software provider, by
(00:26):
Alta Fiber future proof fiber Internet designed to elevate your home,
business and community to a new level, and by Kettering
Health the best care for the best fans. Kettering Health
is the official healthcare provider of the Bengals. Now here's
a quick reminder that you can have the latest edition
of this podcast delivered right to your phone, tablet, or
(00:47):
computer by subscribing wherever you get your podcasts. It's the
greatest thing since Matt Franco. I was in Las Vegas
this week for a college basketball tournament and had the
opportunity to see magician Matt Franco. If you haven't heard
of him, he won America's Got Talent several years ago
(01:07):
and now has his own show called Magic Reinvented nightly
at The Link Hotel and casino on the Las Vegas Strip.
I love magicians, and I have seen a lot of
the big names over the years, and this was the
best show I have ever seen with one how the
hell did he do that? Illusion? After another? If you
(01:29):
want to see what I mean, do a quick YouTube
search for Matt Franco. That's Matt with one T. And
if you travel to Las Vegas, by all means, go
see the show. And after you do, tell me how
he does the thing with the Ramen noodles. The NFL
Draft is less than three weeks away, making it a
(01:51):
great time to have Pro Football Focus analyst Dalton Wasserman
on the show. In addition to writing about the NFL,
Dalton co host the PFF College Football Show and has
great insight on players in this year's draft that the
Bengals are likely considering. He also caught my attention this
week with an article that had the Bengals ranked number
(02:12):
one of any team in the NFL. Taltony recently wrote
about the NFL teams that have done the best and
the worst in the first round of the draft of
the last five years, and the Bengals came out on top.
Now that time period begins with the Joe Burrow draft,
so I guess we shouldn't be surprised, but what do
you think of the five first round draft picks they've
(02:35):
made since twenty twenty overall?
Speaker 2 (02:38):
I mean, look, when you look at the statistics behind it, right,
it's going to come down to the fact that Joe
Burrow and Jamar It's Chase are obviously two of the
elite players in football. Right, So when you look at
something like PFF war I had split things up between
offensive and defensive PFF grades. At this time you're looking at, Okay, well,
Burrow's been the second most valuable player per PFF four
(02:58):
and football behind Patrick Mahomes, and Jamar Chase is one
of the best receivers in football, so the stats are
a little bit tilted. They obviously could do a little
bit better job when it comes to drafting defensive players.
And we'll see about Amarius Mims, you know, going into
his second year on the offensive line and be a
huge help if he you know, got a lot better
this year at right tackle as well. I know that
you know, last year had some injuries and things to
(03:19):
start out, but I think it's exactly what represents the
Bengals right now is their offense between Burrow and Chase
and obviously te Higgins as well in the second round
the same year as Burrow.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
They having a e leite.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Offense right and they have even some holes there that
they could still get better with with their interior offensive
line and even the running game. But defensively, as we
all know, you know, whether they keep Trey hendrickson or not,
and however, the rest of the defense is going to
be built with Al Golden running it. Now, they've got
to get better. I think it's obviously the Bengals. We
all know offensively they can beat anybody. Defensively lately, they
(03:53):
can get beat by anybody. That's kind of how it works,
and that's because they haven't had that much success throughout
the draft.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Let's circle back to last year's first round pick, A
Marius Mims. I think it's been popular among analysts, a
lot of PFF people that I've talked to in recent
years to say that you don't necessarily have to be
great on the offensive line. The key is not to
have any huge liabilities. But I saw a clip from
another podcast you were on recently where you made the
(04:20):
case that elite pass protection is actually critical. Explain why
very much so.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
I mean seven of the last eight Super Bowl champions
have ranked inside the top seven of our pass blocking grade, right, So,
it really it's coming down to more and more, especially
with the talent you know of edge rushers and even
defensive lineman. Now as you saw Philadelphia Eagles this year,
you have to be able to protect your quarterback in big,
big situations.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Right.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Teams with bad offensive lines are not winning Super Bowls anymore.
It's extremely hard, both in the past game and the
run game. Right we saw obviously the Eagles this year
have that balance. They had that balance of Saquon Barkley
in the run game too. But you talk about a
team like the Bengals, who I believe had the third
worst pass rushing grade as a team or sorry, pass
blocking grade as a team this year, You're just not
(05:08):
gonna win like that, right because you've got too many
teams that have too good of a pass rush as
well when you get into these big spots, when you
get into conference title games, when you get into the
Super Bowl. Right, So, I think it's something that really
needs to be improved. And obviously, are you going to
have five superstars, not necessarily, but if you're looking at
having a really good offensive line, you probably need something
(05:28):
like two superstars and then three solid players who can
fill the other three spots and at least be, say
by our standards, in the low sixty or in the
high sixties or low seventies. You're talking about it's going
to be hard to have holes on the offensive line,
and you need to have better pass protection than they have.
So for as much as the talk has been about
the Bengals improving their defense, their on line, especially in
the interior, still needs improvement if they're going.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
To go all the way.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Of those last five first round draft picks, Miles Murphy
is the guy who's probably the biggest question mark at
this point. I guess you could say Dak Sill because
of the injury, but he was playing really well before
he got hurt last year. What did you think of
Miles Murphy coming out of Clemson and should Bengals fans
anticipate a big step forward this year if he gets
more playing time.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
You would hope so.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
I mean, coming out of Clemson, he was very raw, right,
You knew he always had a lot of potential at Clemson.
Never quite hit that peak, and that's why he went
later in the first round, more so because of his
talent than his production. And I mean, they could really
use they could really use that help off the edge now.
And I know there's been a lot of talk about
them drafting an edge rusher in the first round again
because you know, Murphy's had a slow start during the
(06:36):
first two years of his career. Plus you know, Trey
Hendrickson obviously on the trade block. But you know, Murphy,
it's tough to tell right now, just you just haven't
seen a big impact through his first two years. He
does have a lot of physical talent, but the polish
has to be there. And I think this is a
big make or break year for him as it comes to,
you know, possibly being a starter, especially if Hendrickson gets traded.
(06:57):
They've got to figure out we already know this entire
defensive line, but Murphy has to play a much bigger
role than he has the first two years.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
PFF analyst Dalton Loserman is our guest. I mentioned and
then that recent article about the first round draft picks,
you ranked the best and the worst teams. The Bengals
came out on top. The Raiders came out last prior
to the brock Bauers pick last year. It's almost comically
bad how lousy Las Vegas is drafted in the first round.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Yeah, even with brock Bauers involved.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
You look at again PFF War and they were number
one on the bottom when it comes to PFF War
from the first round picks over the last five years.
And that's because obviously at Henry Ruggs who didn't work
out and had all field issue, same thing with Damon
Arnet at corner. Alex Bleatherwood was a reach at the time,
and Tyreek Wilson just hasn't been able to put it
(07:50):
together again. Kind of the same case as Miles Murphy.
Miles Murphy where he's an extremely talented pass rusher but
doesn't have the polish and hasn't put it all together yet. So,
I mean, Bowers pick this past year obviously, but the
Raiders and that's why I look, they're picking in the
top eight again. They're still trying to figure it out,
especially on defense and other than Max Crosby. This past year,
the defense was a mess, right, especially in coverage, So
(08:12):
they're really trying to figure that out. And I mean,
you see it you know, I look at the bottom
five teams here and you look at you know, the
Raiders haven't had much success the last five years. The
Tennessee Titans, and now they're picking first again because they
haven't had success in this draft. The Rams are an
exception because it was their first draft pick Jared Versus
the first first round draft pick since twenty sixteen. And
then the New Orleans Saints the same thing. They're picking
(08:34):
in the top ten and slowly declining as a team
because they haven't drafted well lately. So it's just, you know,
you look at these teams, a lot of them that
are in the top eight to ten in this year's draft,
and you go, well, it makes a lot of sense
that they're struggling and they're picking near the top again
because they haven't drafted well in recent years.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
You need those young players.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
You need to find premier talent in the first round
to continue to get better.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Let's circle back to the Bengals offensive line, that blueprint
that you kind of describe ideally with a couple of
superstars and then three good guys as well. I don't
know if Orlando Brown Junior and Amrius Mims are superstars
at least not yet in Mems case, but they're very
solid at tackle. I don't think anybody would dispute that
Ted Kerris is a solid center. The guard spots are
(09:17):
the question mark. They have added Lucas Patrick in free agency,
but how high of a draft pick do you think
the Bengals should use on a guard.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
I think there's a pretty good sweet spot on day
two between pick number forty nine and in the second round,
when you talk about maybe somebody like Donovan Jackson, if
a from Ohio State, if he were available. Maybe I
don't know that Tyler Booker will go that low, but
if Tyler Booker were ever available in the second round
at number forty.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
Nine, you'd be looking pretty good.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
And then at number eighty one in the third round,
I think you're talking there a pretty good spot when
you talk about maybe a Tate Ratledge from Georgia, Luke
Candra from the you know locally here from the University
of Cincinnati, I think would be a good help. I
think rounds two through four for interior offensive lineman, whether
it be a guard or center, that's really gonna be
the sweet spot. I don't know that there's any first
(10:08):
rounders that would be worth the seventeenth overall pick. I
wouldn't say so unless they feel like there's somebody that
could transfer from tackle to the interior. But more likely
rounds two through four would be a good spot. I
know this look, there's gonna be a lot of talk
about defense and needing to build a defense, but they
need to help on the interior offensive line. I think
forty nine, eighty one and one nineteen, where the Bengals
are looking at in rounds two through four, would be
(10:30):
a good spot to be looking for interior offensive linemen.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
If they use one of those picks on a guard,
is that enough? Brandon Sheriff is still out there in
free agency? There are still some other names still out
there in free agency. What do you think draft a starter,
try to draft a starter and see what you've got,
or also still go out there and get another bet.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
I think the more open competition that they have at
both of those guard spots the better, right because right now,
when you're looking at, you know, competition between Courtell Versa
Vols and Cody Ford, Lucas Patrick, I mean, it's just
it's tough. That's not the best crew. Even if you're
talking about an open competition there, So would it even
(11:10):
shock me if they drafted two interior guys, maybe even
a late round center, maybe in the fifth or sixth round. Also,
it wouldn't shock me that much. But I think post
draft they should look at least one more veteran to
see if they can improve among that group, because it's
just not it's not enough, right and you still need
to protect Joe Burrow. I know he can process better
than almost any quarterback in football, but it would really
(11:31):
help to have more of an open competition because we
know these guys don't have the highest ceiling that.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
They have currently.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
PFF analyst Dalton Wasserman is our guest. You can follow
him an X at PFF Underscore. Dalton, you published a
mock draft earlier this week when it was the Bengals
turn to pick seventeenth. Overall, there were several top edge
defenders available, mikel Williams, Mike Green, James Pierce, and some others.
(11:57):
There were good defensive tackles on the board can it Grant,
Walter Nolan, Derek Harmon. Some of the top guards were there.
Tyler Booker, who you mentioned earlier. Grey's Abel was still
on the board, Michigan cornerback Well Johnson was on the board.
You did choose an edge. It was a guy haven't
mentioned yet. Combine star Shamar Stewart of Texas A and
(12:18):
m Why was he your pick?
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Yeah, I think it's tough right now, especially if whether
or not they're going to sign Trey Hendrickson. I think Stuart,
if Hendrickson were to stay, Stuart would be a really
good compliment to Henderson, being that Hendrickson, I should say,
being that he's the great pass rusher and Stuart is
a really good run defender. Right there's at least very
raw as a pass rusher, needs a lot of development there,
(12:41):
but very good as a run defending compliment to Hendrickson
if that were the case that he stayed. Now, I
think there's also a part to me where Stuart is
extremely talented and the Bengals almost I almost feel like
they need to take that swing right if they're gonna
have so much to the of the cap go you know,
towards four P with Burrow, Chase Higgins, impossibly Hendrickson, they
(13:03):
almost need to take that home run swing on a
guy like Shamar Stewart who has an extremely high ceiling right,
And you know, I think that's the thing is raising
the ceiling on this.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
Defense right now.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
They could make they can make a safer pick if
they could took if they took a Kenneth Grant or
somebody like that, I think that's a safer pick. You
know what you're getting in run defense. But it feels
like the Bengals, I think they need to take a
little bit more of a risk than some other teams
right because they're just missing talent at certain spots on defense,
especially now with Sam Hubbard retiring, not much to work
with off the edge. And I know it's a similar
(13:35):
pick to maybe a Miles Murphy and it hasn't worked
so far through his first two years, but they need
to take a gamble to really see, Okay, if we
can get somebody to max out potential like Shamar Stewart,
who might even go earlier than the seventeenth pick, they
could raise the ceiling on this defense and really really
changed how it can look on defense. Because they just
to take a safer pick, I don't know how much
(13:59):
better it can make their defense immediately, right, and they
really need this window where they're going to have Burrow
and Chase and Higgins all signed. They need to think
an impact player, they need to take a chance on defense.
That's why Stuart as a higher ceiling player, maybe higher
risk Hyrieward I think makes a lot of sense at seventeen.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
I have been looking at a lot of mock drafts
and I would say the three names most frequently mocked
to the Bengals are Stuart, Green and Pierce. What do
you think of those other two guys if they were
to go than that direction?
Speaker 2 (14:29):
I think both of them make a lot of sense too,
obviously a little bit smaller. And then I think the
hardest part for me to project with the Bengals is
which type of player that Al Golden would want. Is
it going to be more of a stand up guy
that matches, you know, along with Trey Hendrickson like they've
had with lou Anarimo in past years, or is it
going to be the classic defensive end more like Shamar Stewart.
(14:49):
Because you're talking about very very different players, right, and
they're all very talented players. But Stuart's a more classic
defensive end, whereas Green and Pierce are lighter to forty
five two hundred and fifty pounds stand up outside linebackers.
Speed rushers for sure, especially James Pierce very much a
speed rusher who is kind of raw. He's got a
boatload of talent, but it's different than Stuart. You don't
(15:10):
have as great a run defender. And obviously Mike Green
also coming from Marshall, different level of competition, still a
dominant player in the Sunbelt, but you're looking at it
different type. So I think it depends on what Golden
is looking for. It's hard to tell because I don't
know that he's necessarily gonna run his defense exactly the
same as he did at Notre Dame. It was very aggressive,
whole lot of man coverage, whole lot of four man fronts.
(15:31):
So's it's the hard part for me. That's the hard
part predicting for me is the Bengals and how al
Golden wants to run his defense and how much different
that's gonna be with loulannar Erumo. I think if it
was leu Ana Rumo still I think actually the pick
would be Mike Green because he likes the stand up
edge rushers. But I can't be one hundred percent sure
on that. Those are two very good players, though Green
(15:51):
and Pierce, extremely athletic, great get off. I have them
as the second and third best edge in that order,
Green and Pierce among the edge defenders. But it's gonna really,
it's really hard to predict right now where Golden's gonna
want to go, assuming they go with a defensive player
with that first pick.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
You co host the PFF College Football Show, so I'm
sure you've watched a lot of Notre Dame over the
past few years. What stood out to you about Al
Golden's defenses.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
The aggressiveness and the confidence, especially in coverage and in
the secondary. This year they ran I believe, I want
to say it was either number one or in the
top three of the most man coverage in the country
this past year. I believe close to sixty percent. It
only ramped up during their you know, during their playoff run,
and they were just absolutely lights out right. When you
(16:39):
talk about guys like Ben Morrison, guys like the true
freshman Leonard Moore on the outside that we're going to
talk about over the next two years and get into
the twenty twenty seven drafts, Xavior Watts at free safety
is another one that's gonna get a lot of talk.
I think he's a second round pick, and they just
they just had such an aggressive and dominant secondary. That's
what really jumped out to me. Now, I don't think
(17:00):
they'll run quite as much man coverage in the NFL
because you don't see teams that run sixty percent man
coverage in the NFL very much, an adjustment like defensive
coordinator Jeff Hafley made for the Green Bay Packers. He
were in a similar system at Boston College. Runs more
zone coverage in Green Bay, but still wants to get
aggressive here and there. That's what really sticks out the
most is the coverage and just the ability to shut
(17:21):
teams down man to man. I think it's not gonna
be quite as often in the NFL, and it's just
not how that works. But I think that's where it's
gonna start us with the coverage. And obviously, look, you
need help obviously on the defensive line in the NFL.
But if he can get that four man rush going
maybe here and there, get blitz heavy and a lot
of press man coverage, it's gonna look a little bit
more aggressive. It's definitely gonna look different than lou An Aroma,
(17:43):
who runs a lot of a lot of zone.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
They signed TJ. Slayton to be a run stopping defensive tackle.
They re signed B. J. Hill last year. They drafted
Chris Jenkins and McKinley Jackson, two more defensive tackles. How
big of a need is defensive tackle at this point?
Speaker 2 (18:01):
I think it's I think it would be big to
find a pass rush compliment to those guys. But I
also think it's a deep defensive tackle class and that's
something they could find in the middle rounds. The more
I think about, you know, like you mentioned those two
guys that they sign, plus Chris Jenkins as a second
round pick last year, and plus you know again the
change to a different style of defense, it's if it's
going to be a four man defensive front instead of
(18:23):
a lot of five man like lou Anrimo used to use.
I don't think, I really don't think they're taking a
defensive tackle in the first round.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
I think they're gonna look.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
More in the depth, more through the depth of it,
maybe a third round type of guy like a Omar
Norman Lot from Tennessee or an Annis Peebles who's more
of a pass rush specialist than the run defender. Like
the run defenders that they all have on this team already,
but I do think it's still in need. I think
an interior pass rusher to rotate in and play maybe
(18:52):
twenty to twenty five snaps a game right now could
be found on you know, early or late day two,
or even even in the round four. When you talk
about how deep this defensive tackle class is, I don't
think they're going to do it first round, considering the
resources they spent recently. I think that'll be more likely
an edge player or possibly someone in the secondary. I
still think it's possible that they could look there if
(19:12):
there's someone they like, but it is a need. I
think it's a need more towards a specialized pass rusher.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
More to come with Dalton Wasserman, including his take on
the Trey Hendrickson situation. But first, a quick reminder that
the Bengals Booth podcast is brought to you by paid Core,
Proud to be the Bengals official HR software provider by
Alta Fiber future proof fiber Internet designed to elevate your home,
business and community to a new level, and by Kettering
Health the best care for the best fans. Kettering Health
(19:42):
is the official healthcare provider of the Bengals, Dalton Losserman
is our guest, and that recent mock draft where you
chose Shamar Stewart seventeenth overall. You posted a picture of
a three round Bengals mock draft. You had linebacker Demetrius
Knight out of South Carolina as their second round pick,
and offensive lineman Tate Rutledge, whom you mentioned earlier out
(20:05):
of Georgia is your third round pick. If that were
the case, Stewart might be the least likely to start
the first round pick because of the positional needs at
linebacker and guard. Do you think that the Bengals need
to come out of this draft with starters about those
two positions?
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Yeah, I would say so at those two positions. I mean,
especially if you're talking about now. Jermaine Pratt is still
obviously on the ruster, but we've been assuming for a
while that he's going to be gone. And Demitrius Knight
in the second round is somebody I think with an
established middle linebacker like Logan Wilson already on that defense,
I think this is one of the teams that he
could go to. He's a perfect week side that will linebacker.
(20:45):
I think you talk about playing a similar position to say,
like the way Drake Greenlaw played against or I should say,
with Fred Warner in San Francisco. I think that's a
nice fit for him to not have to handle. He's
not a middle linebacker. Team that already has an established
middle linebacker like Logan Wilson that could fit. He's got
enough speed in coverage. He's not the most physical player,
(21:07):
but he's very fast. He can run sideline the sideline,
and he's very good in coverage.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
So I think.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Linebacker if we're still assuming that Jermaine Pratt is getting
either traded or cut at some point. I know they
signed orin Berks, but he's more of a third guy
that can rotate in or give you a spot start.
I think Knight could immediately start as that week side guy,
that new week side guy next to Logan Wilson.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
And then at guard.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Yeah, I think Tate Ratledge in the third round would
be a perfect fit. I think actually there's a chance
he could immediately start. Extremely athletic, extremely clean pass protector,
and I think that has to be the priority when
you're talking about a team built around Joe Burrow and
a decent run blocker, right, I mean that, Look, the
Bengals had one of the worst run blocking grades for
us in the entire league, so anything's better than what
they had last year. I think Ratledge would walk in
(21:49):
and start, most likely at right guard.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Right away, you mentioned Luke Candra, earlier Cincinnati kid who
wound up his college career at the University of Cincinnati.
Similar story for running back Corey Kiner started out at
LSU finished. Did you see those are probably the two
Bearcats most likely to get picked. If they're not drafted,
there's certainly going to be in NFL camps. What do
(22:11):
you think of Candra and Kiner?
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Candra, I think is somewhere between a third and fourth
round pick. I think he's very consistent, plays a little high.
He's a taller player, I think it's six five sixty
six as a guard, but a good athlete, a fundamentally
sound player, especially in zone blocking schemes. And I don't
know that he necessarily is the best fit in as
far as run scheme goes for the Bengals. But even then, look,
they need anything they could get if they took him,
(22:35):
you know, in the in the third round there at
eighty one, or even if they found a chance to
get him in the fourth round. I still think he'd
be a nice talented pick. I think I think he's
a possible starter, maybe not necessarily first year, but possibly
if a team were thin. I think about the Seattle
Seahawks as well for him. But I think somewhere in
that mid to l eight to fourth round range, I
think Candra is going. And then Kinder's a guy in
a deep running back class who hasn't been talked about
(22:58):
a whole whole lot, right. I mean, there's so much
money backs that we've talked about. I think because of its,
you know, being such a thicker class, he could be
more of a fifth or six round pick. But he
was one of the leaders in college football this past
year in miss tackles force. He runs hard, he's got
good vision, he likes to get north and south quickly.
I think you're gonna see him more as a mid
to late day three pick, but still possibly a solid
(23:19):
early down runner. I think there's a little bit missing
as far as the receiving game the passing game, and
that's in part because Cincinnati wasn't the best passing team
and didn't design a whole lot for him.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
But I think when you talk about an.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Early down complimentary, just aggressive, hard hitting back, I think
this definitely. I think Corey Kiner is getting drafted. I
think he's just somebody who hasn't gotten mentioned a whole
lot because there's so many backs that are going in
this draft.
Speaker 3 (23:41):
But he's one of those guys. I keep saying it.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
I think through even the fifth or sixth round, there's
going to be good running backs drafted, and he's one
of them. On the back end of that, somebody's gonna
take him. He's going to get a chance to make
a roster.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Tal Wasserman from Pro Football Focus is our guest. The
Bengals and Trey Hendrickson at the moment do not appear
to be close to a deal. What should the Bengals
do in your opinion?
Speaker 2 (24:04):
I mean, personally, I would find a way to negotiate
and keep him. I mean, he's by far the best
defensive player on this team. He's one of the elite
pass rushers in football. And I mean even with him,
the defense obviously is kind of a mess and they're
trying to figure it out and figure out this draft.
But to lose an elite pass rusher like that then
(24:25):
you're just talking about starting from scratch on this defense,
and it just seems it seems tough to think that
the negotiations are so hard, not get it, trying to
work the salary cap and all of that, but it's
just to lose a guy of that caliber. Would I
think it's devastating because then you look at their defensive
line and you go, Okay, now we can't rush the
passer either, and what do we do with this first
(24:46):
round pick, and what do we do with this entire draft?
And obviously if they trade him, they'll have more resources,
but it's very, very hard to imagine within the next
two years that you would get another player as productive
as Trey Hendrickson and what he's done for his entire
career with the Bengals and really his entire career in
general with the Saints and the Bengals. Players like him
don't come around that often, right, especially the way in
(25:08):
what he's developed into and leading the league in sacks.
So I would still try to find a way to
keep him. I mean, it's very hard to think that.
You know, it's that thing where you just go, well,
if he's gone, it's not like you're going to find
any better, anything better in the immediate.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
Right, it does.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
You're certainly a better team with Trey Hendrickson on your roster.
It's it's hard to watch the fact you know the
negotiations and how it's been lately and how good he is,
and yet they don't feel like the value matches up
with it. I know he's going to be thirty one
years old, but he's still got a few years left
I think as an elite pass rusher, and I would
be trying to keep him with everything.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
I have, so you don't have much concern about a
big drop off after thirty for pass rushers.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
I think. I think I would say he's got another
three solid years in him as a pass rusher, right,
And he's not an elite run defender anyway. We have
him usually in the mid to high sixty, which is
okay as a run defender. But I think definitely the
way he works and the mileage isn't quite as much
as you might think, because he did play more of
a part time role earlier in his career with the
(26:10):
Saints and then really took on a featured role. And
look past rushers that we see a lot of them
all the time now that are solid into their mid thirties, right,
even if the role maybe declines a little bit. But
if I had to take a guess, I think he
still got probably three more years as a really really good,
close to elite pass rusher. I think that could happen.
And he works. He works his butt off. I mean, honestly,
(26:31):
I'm actually him. You know, he went to Florida Atlantic.
I was actually a Florida Atlantic alumni as well, So
you know, I have people that have known Hendrickson since
he was nineteen years old, and even back then, he
was always the hardest worker. He was just a different player,
even at that school that you know. It's gotten some
players to the NFL too, Devin Singletary and as He's
Al Shier and those guys. But anytime I talked to
(26:52):
someone in FAU that new trade, they were like, Hey,
he's different, He's a different animal. He works his butt off.
He's just constantly at it. The dream is to be
dominant in the NFL, and I don't think that's gonna
stop no matter what they pay him or how old
he gets. He's really gonna squeeze everything he has out
of his career. So I would say, honestly, I think
at least as a pass rusher, he's got another good
three years in him.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
At least the Bengals kept your bar Chase. They kept
t Higgins. We're obviously excited about that. In Cincinnati. Who
won free agency?
Speaker 2 (27:22):
I think about I think New England. You look at
what New England did with their defense, and I know
they got it. They still need to work on the offense,
and that's where I would be going heavy in this
draft is figuring out the offensive side of the ball
around Green around Drake May. I think New England's won
where Mike Rabel's really building that identity with all the
money they spent on defense. And I'll give you the
(27:43):
other one. I really like the Minnesota Vikings. I mean,
you look at all the needs that they had. They
had needs at corner. They found a way to re
sign Byron Murphy. I think Isaiah Rodgers is an underrated signing.
They got Harrison Smith for another year at safety, They
filled in the defensive tackle spot, got some pass rushers
down there that they needed. Interior offensive line was a
big need and they got two guys from the Colts
(28:04):
and Ryan Kelly and Will Fries and I think, especially
when you look at that pass protection, you look at
their offensive line, and now JJ McCarthy's most likely to start,
they are in position to support him as about as
possibly about as well as they possibly can. Right when
you talk about and you know and Ben Johnson is
doing the same thing in Chicago.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
That's another one.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
With all the trades and signings they made on the
offensive line, those are two teams. I look at the
Bears and the Vikings that you look at their young quarterback,
look at their supporting cast, and you go, man, they're
building it right if you're gonna have a young kid
out there who and Williams you could almost argue is
now in his real first year because it was such
a disaster last year with the Bears. Where you go, man,
if they can't succeed in that situation, then it'll really
(28:45):
be on them. But they've made those situations a lot better.
Minnesota sticks out, the Bears stick out, New England sticks out,
and I'll give you one more. They didn't make a
ton of moves, but I think they made the right
moves at Denver Broncos, getting Drake Greenlaw, getting talent know
Hufanga and getting Evan Ingram. Those are three players I
really like them getting that they needed in very specific spots.
I think the Broncos are a team to really look
(29:07):
out for again this coming season.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Who is the Steelers starting quarterback next year? Mason Rudolph,
Aaron Rodgers or TBA.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
I think and everything it sounds like from the Rooneyes
and Mike Tomlin obviously is keeping it keeping everything tight.
I think it's going to be Aaron Rodgers. I think
we're just waiting on We're just waiting on Rodgers to
make his final decision as always and get the actual
negotiations going. And I think, honestly, it would be much
(29:38):
easier for the Steelers for now, because of where they're
drafting and the lack of depth in this draft class
to just take Aaron Rodgers. Maybe you take a mid
round quarterback instead, But I think it would be very
dangerous for them if Rogers, say were to retire, and
now they're looking pick number twenty one, not entirely sure
what they're doing. Is it a trade up possibly for
Shador Sanders? Is it Jack's and Dart, who I think
(30:01):
is very polarizing when it comes to how good he
is and how good he could be in the league.
Is it somebody in the middle rounds? Is it Mason
because I mean, look, Mason Rudolph, Let's face it, that's
a backup, right, He's a backup. If they if they
start this season with Mason Rudolph as the starter, I
think they're in trouble. And I know they got Metcalf
and they have Pickens and Friarmouth, but it makes Rudolph's
a backup. They cannot walk in with him as the starter.
(30:23):
So I think the most likely scenarios it's Aaron Rodgers.
Maybe they draft somebody in the middle rounds to sit
behind him and learn a little bit behind him and Rudolph,
But I would assume Rogers is.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
The guy Colorado just had its pro day. Is Travis
Hunter a wide receiver or a cornerback in the NFL s.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
I'll tell you, I'm I'm the believer that he's so
special that he could play a significant amount of both.
I've been I've been one of and I know it's rare.
It's not even just rares, it's unprecedented. I really have
a belief that he could do something unprecedented late like
place seventy to eighty percent on both sides of the ball,
because I mean what he did at Colorado, he was
(31:02):
an elite player on both sides. That's why he won
the Heisman Trophy. You know, I could argue that he's
the best receiver and the best corner in this draft,
and that's both in one body. I've had a hard
time picking one or the other. I really have because
I think he's that special. I think he could do
a significant amount of both, and I understand the logic
both ways. Look when you talk about a guy who's
been compared at receiver to you know, athletically, to Justin
(31:25):
Jefferson or Odell Beckham junior, you go, oh wow, well
that's that's pretty darn good company. But then you look
at him play corner, and honestly, he's got the potential
to be the best corner in football. That's how good
he is on that side of the ball, especially with
his ball skills and the way he uses his offensive
knowledge on defense right and how that all works. So
I think he's special. I really believe he could be somebody.
(31:46):
To me, I would play him both ways until he can't,
until something doesn't go right, whether he can't stay healthy
enough or it just doesn't work at the NFL level.
I would give him a true shot both ways.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
All right, Final question for PFF analyst Dalton Washerman, shake
your time. I was just in Las Vegas for a
college basketball tournament. The Bengals Super Bowl odds are the
sixth highest of any team. Too high, too low, or
just about right.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
I'm those might be a little high because I need
to see the improvements on their defense and a little
more balance on offense. Now, obviously the floor is there.
If you have Burrow and Chase and Higgins and they're
all healthy, you have a shot. They went nine to
eight this past year, knowing there was four or five
games that came down to the last minute or down
to the very end, and they just couldn't get a stop.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
Right.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
They know they could compete with anybody. It's just it's
a matter of this defense, though, and it's very, very
hard to you know, Like I mentioned the two things.
The pass protection, especially in the interior, it needs to
be a lot better. They need to figure out how
they can fix up this offensive line. And obviously the
defense needs to be a whole lot better. Right, I mean,
you just you're not going to have, you know, a
team that is twenty second in our defensive grading last season,
(32:59):
and earlier in the year was worse than that. They
were in the bottom five, and then they got better
the last five six weeks. Got to it's gotta be
significantly better. So six might be a little high. There's
a lot of there's a lot to fix. I mean,
it's it's hard to even say that they're, you know,
in the argument to be the leader, the favorite in
that division, right you know when you talk about Pittsburgh
is still really good and Baltimore is obviously still gonna
(33:19):
be really good. So that's really the first goals. They
have to find a way to win that division first
and then see where it goes. Their defense has to
get a lot better. I get that Burrow raises the odds,
but six might be a little bit high for me.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
You didn't mention Cleveland as a team that they'll have
to beat in the AFC North.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
That's that's a tougher one. They're certainly not nearly as
close as six.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
I mean, picking second overall the Browns, that's that's tough,
and they have a tough decision with that second overall
pick too, because I mean there's been a lot of
talk about Abdul Carter, possibly a quarterback, possibly Travis Hunter.
But I think the Browns and I think that, you know,
Jimmy Haslam recently admitted this too. Is where it's just
they need to get Watson off the books. They're really
(34:00):
not going to be successful. And until they can get
Watson off the books, maybe they'll have a quarterback this year,
maybe it'll be next year, but they need to just
get through this era and flush it out and reset
the salary cap and figure it out from there. I
think the Browns. I think the Browns is going to
be in for a tough year and we could see
him picking top three to five again next year.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Dalton, you have been prolific in cranking out interesting content
of late on Pro Football Focus. I've enjoyed looking at it.
I'm sure that will continue up until the draft and beyond.
I really appreciate you joining us on the podcast and
keep up the good work.
Speaker 3 (34:33):
Appreciate you, Dan, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
That's going to do it for this episode of the
Bengals Booth podcast, brought to you by pay Core. Proud
to be the Bengals Official HR software provider by Alta
Fiber future proof fiber Internet designed to elevate your home,
business and community to a new level, and by Kettering
Health the best care for the best fans. Kettering Health
is the official healthcare provider of the Bengals. If you
(34:57):
haven't done so already, please subscribe to this podcast and
if you have a minute, give it a rating or
share a comment that helps more Bengals fans find us.
I'm Dan Horde and thank you for listening to the
Bengals Booth podcast.
Popular Podcasts
Cold Case Files: Miami
Joyce Sapp, 76; Bryan Herrera, 16; and Laurance Webb, 32—three Miami residents whose lives were stolen in brutal, unsolved homicides.  Cold Case Files: Miami follows award‑winning radio host and City of Miami Police reserve officer  Enrique Santos as he partners with the department’s Cold Case Homicide Unit, determined family members, and the advocates who spend their lives fighting for justice for the victims who can no longer fight for themselves.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.