Big Blue Kickoff Live 12/8 | Giants After the Bye

John Schmeelk and Matt Citak discuss the state of the team after the bye week, talk about Jaxson Dart, and take calls from fans. 

0:00 - Giants after the bye

29:00 - Calls

36:30 - Jaxson Dart

48:20 - Joe Schoen’s presser

54:20 - Roster chat

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
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Speaker 2 (00:07):
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Do it because you're on Giants dot com.

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Speaker 1 (00:14):
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Speaker 2 (00:15):
As seventeen fourteen one tick down. We all, we're all tamper.

Speaker 1 (00:22):
Part of the Giants podcast network.

Speaker 2 (00:24):
That's going on. Hello everybody, welcome on the Monday's Big
Blue Kickoff Live. Sorry for the delay, a bit of
a scheduling snaff foo. Thank you to Matthew Stak for
jumping in from upstairs and stepping in. Sorry for starting late,
so we'll go to around one forty today, taking your
calls at two A one nine three nine four five
one three and the hack in Sack Brity Health podcast
video Keep getting Better. Big Book Kickoff Live is of

(00:45):
course presented by Cadillact, the official luxury vehicle of the Giants.
How was your bye week off, mister side Tak?

Speaker 3 (00:50):
It was great, very relaxing, and Jonathan lose Gianth didn't
lose and and as of right now, Giants are at
the first. I was out even having played.

Speaker 2 (01:02):
It's funny, I originally thought that I was gonna past
a show with Datino, and this was not Paul's Faultpather,
I'm not thinking I under the bus and I was
gonna ask him about this, and I was waiting to
see how Paul would be like, John, I haven't even
thought about this yet. I don't think about I don't
know what I'm gonna do. But now you're here, and
I know you asked you. Do you think about this stuff?
So I can actually ask you the question. Ideal situation.

(01:24):
Throw this prospect class away, don't worry about it, and
assume it's unnamed group of prospects. Okay, if you had
your choice of any great player at any position with
the first overall pick in the draft, what position would
you take? What do you mean forget the you can?
I will let you create a prospect out of thin air.

(01:46):
The best prospect in this class could be at any position.
What position would you draft the first in the draft?

Speaker 3 (01:52):
Yes, oh ah, I mean this might be a cop out,
but I feel like if you if the Giants actually
end with the first pick, you have to look into trading.

Speaker 4 (02:04):
Now.

Speaker 2 (02:04):
I'm taking that off the table for now. Okay, you
have to pick the player in one and I'm taking
quarterback off the table. Yeah, I would not go quarterback.

Speaker 3 (02:13):
I feel like pretty confident heading into next year with
Jackson Dart now the quarterback.

Speaker 2 (02:17):
I would say, if there was an Andrew Luck level
quarterback prospect in this year's draft class, I think you
have to have that conversation regardless of who's in your building.
But there's not so that thing. I'm taking quarterback off
the table. Okay, it's not an easy question. No, you
know what, Maybe offensive tackle. That's what I would say too.

Speaker 3 (02:37):
And I say that hoping that Germaine Illuminor is back
next year, but because he's a pending free agent, he's
likely played himself into a at least a much bigger
contract than what he just got from the Giants last
off season or two off seasons ago. Hopefully he's back,
but if not, then obviously your right tackle spot opposite

(02:58):
Andrew Thomas is the most glaring hole going into the
off season, so a tackle would make sense.

Speaker 2 (03:04):
I would say that would be that I'm one A
one B. My one B would be wide receiver.

Speaker 3 (03:09):
That was I was literally about to say. And my
other choice would be wide receiver. Similar situation with Wandel Robinson,
a pending free agent, now I would say I feel
like bringing back Jermaina Luminor is at least should maybe
be a slightly higher priority than Wandell only because, good question,
we have seen the Giants offensive line for the first

(03:30):
time in what feels like over a decade, actually produce solid,
consistent results on a weekend and week out basis, and
Jermaina Lumnor obviously has played a very big part of that.
Andrew Thomas is the lead guy in that group, and
the three interior guys I think have been playing better
than a lot of people expected them to play. But
Jermaina Lumnor has really held held it down on the

(03:52):
right side. So and as great as Wandell's having a
great season, probably the best season, not probably the best
season of his career, but you did also just last
offseason give a contract to Darius Slaydon. Obviously my league
neighbors heading into year three, but it's after your third
year that you are eligible to sign an extension, correct,
So if the league comes back as a monster year,

(04:14):
you would expect he would at least want an extension.
So it's just how much money can you really give
out to wide receivers each offseason?

Speaker 2 (04:22):
So I feel like, no, no, no, I'm with you.
I know, I think your logic is sound.

Speaker 3 (04:29):
I also think you could just pretty much take almost
any position on defense, maybe not outside linebacker ed rusher.
Because I've with Brian Burns, Abdul Carter, and keve On
Tibodeau under contract for at least one more year, I
feel like it's obviously not as big of a need.
And you just this past draft with the number three

(04:49):
overall pick, you just chose the best player at Abdul
Carter despite.

Speaker 2 (04:52):
It not being a knee a position of need.

Speaker 3 (04:55):
But I mean, I know you said kind of take
the actual specific prospects, but someone like Arvel Reese, yeah.

Speaker 2 (05:04):
Does Actually would you consider Rvel Reese or even a
Ruben Bain. Let's say ruben Bain is more of an
ed rusher, No he is. Would you consider one of
those two guys if you moved Thibodeau for a player
at a position of need in the offseason and you
just had Burns and Carter on the roster.

Speaker 3 (05:24):
Yes, But at the same time, I want to see
Burns an Abdul so I have a you know, get
the full allotment of snaps each and every week. I
agree with you, And while it's great to have a
surplus at, especially at a premier position like ed Rusher,
I don't know that. I mean we've seen this year,
like the rotating the three of them, it hasn't produced

(05:45):
the results that we kind of thought that the defensive
line was going to get.

Speaker 2 (05:48):
Now.

Speaker 3 (05:48):
I think the performance of Dexter Lawrence in the middle
as I think played a role in that. You know,
he hasn't had the dominant season we've grown accustomed to,
which I think has led to outside of Burns, the
edge guys not quite getting the same or the production
that maybe we thought they were gonna get.

Speaker 2 (06:07):
I agree. How would you then rank three technique defensive tackle,
inside linebacker, and corner. I think corner has to be
one just because Flots are free agent.

Speaker 3 (06:20):
Yeah, again, it's another position with a pending free agent,
and how me Flot's going to be back with him
and a Debo is the top two corners on the outside.
Corner is not as big of a neat.

Speaker 2 (06:30):
And Miken macfatt an inside linebacker too.

Speaker 3 (06:32):
Yes, So I guess fortunately all of these free agent
questions will be answered before the.

Speaker 2 (06:39):
Draft correct correct, but correct, which is why. I don't
want to spend too much time on this, but I
just thought it was an interesting exercise. Given right now,
the Giants would have their pick of the litter. Again,
if you don't have, if you're not controlled by the
quality of the class. But I'm with you right now,
you sit there, and I think, right now, Fernando Martinez
is probably the hands down top quarterback in this class
as of now. Mendoza, What did I say, Martinez? Mendoza, Sorry, yes,

(07:02):
and call Banks kept saying Martinez to me before about
joking about something else, and I got stuck in my
head that would be the player that teams would try
to trade up for. I think that Simpson's fallen back.
He has not played well the last half of this year.
And I think Tony Plius told me he thinks Dante
Moore is going back to Oregon. So I think Mendoza
would be the guy that would have to be a

(07:24):
trade down situation in your stack packs now.

Speaker 3 (07:27):
For Giants fans, regardless of how the Giants do over
this next month, I think every Giant fan should be
rooting for Mendoza to have an unbelievable college football playoff
performance and Dante More for that matter, and Dante Moore,
even Ty Simpsons correct, all of them. Have all the
quarterbacks play there out of their minds because as we
all know, quarterbacks always rise and the months leading up

(07:49):
to the draft, yep, Giants are not in the business
of needing a quarterback this draft. So whether the Giants
are at one and looking to trade down or five,
you would want, you know, three quarterback needed teams to
be ahead of them, so one of the best position
players drops to them wherever the Giants end up drafting.

Speaker 2 (08:08):
Yes, I agree, one hundred percent. All right now, I
was just real quick.

Speaker 3 (08:12):
We don't have to talk about this because I'm going
to get real up in arms if we do. But
you want to talk about the best quarterback in college
football this past season is not Mendoza, is not Dante.

Speaker 2 (08:23):
More, and it is not Ty Simpson.

Speaker 3 (08:25):
It's a guy who may not even get drafted or
a Day three draft pick, not really an NFL prospect.
But I'm sorry, the best quarterback in college football this
past season mister Diego Pavia. And I'm not gonna say
no bias, because there's definitely biased, But if you just
look at the numbers.

Speaker 2 (08:42):
Most certainly should could it should be in high contention
for the Heisman Trophy? What I am just curious. Maybe
you'll be able to answer this.

Speaker 3 (08:49):
Mendoza became the heavy favorite to win Heisman after Saturday
night where he didn't play that great. They just Indiana
beat Ohio State to win the.

Speaker 2 (08:59):
Conference set beach and very nicely. He didn't really do
much big fourth quarter, but yes, I mean you.

Speaker 3 (09:06):
Look at his numbers, no overall boxers, just wasn't that impressive,
and he became the heavy heavy favorite for Heisman after that.

Speaker 2 (09:13):
Winning counts in that sort of stuff. It's not just
about statistic I guess, but I give more credit to
the head coach. I look, look, that's why I said,
man Thoz is not to me like a Andrew Luck
level type of prospect here. I think he's a good player.
I think he's deservedly a first round first round pick.
But again, I'm not sure how high the ceiling is
there necessarily, I think. Look, and I know the committee,

(09:35):
and I want to give small schools a chance. Oh,
don't get me started on the committee. I am very
very mad at the committee right now. What are we
doing with Toulane and James Madison here are we just
going to enjoy two first round you know, thirty point
losses and say, oh, well, the only they won their conferences.

Speaker 3 (09:52):
Rename it the College Football Invitational. That's not the college
football playoff because you don't have the twelve best teams
in the country.

Speaker 2 (09:59):
Notre Dame is every right to be upset. They are
one of the twelve best teams. And again I have
no problem Miami going over them because the head ten matchup.
I have no problem with that necessarily. But do you
want to sell me that too. Lane and James Madison
are better teams than Notre Dame and even Vanderbilt b
yu by us two losses to Texas Tech. That's it.
I mean, this isn't a college football shows. I haven't

(10:19):
got too deep for a very long time. Yeah, I
know you can. And they would us out of the playoff.
That is, throw us a bone, give diego. And by
the way, how much did they play people along with
this whole like ratings every week and how they do
it and then in the end it did none of
it ended up mattering like at all. Yeah, it's just amazing, amazing,

(10:42):
all right, So I go back to the Giants, So
I did a little self scout today, okay, of the Giants.
It's the same routine I do every week for the
Giants opponent, just to kind of see who they are,
figure out what type of team they are, and I'm
gonna throw some things at you, Matt. She's you haven't
looked at any of this yet. Some throwing? Oh cool,
no idea what you're about to say, throw at So
here's what I'm gonna thart you. The Giants this year

(11:02):
offensively have overall been pretty good EPA per play, believe
it or not. There ninth in the National Football League
offensively and EPA per play I do believe it nineteenth
in Dvoa. Again, those are two different officientensuy metrics. Passing
Dvoa their sixteenth EPA per play they're fourteenth, so pretty
good success rate. This is interesting. Success rate, guys, is determined.

(11:24):
This is a not quite as analytics. So basically, you
have to get half the number of yardage needed for
a first down on either first or second down. So
if it's second to ten, you get five yards, it's
a successful play first and ten five yards a successful play,
and do the math after that. The third and fourth
down in order for to be successful play, you have
to get the first down. That's kind of how you
determine what a successful play is. So overall just twenty

(11:45):
third overall, fourteenth rush, twenty seventh passing success rate. And
the reason why is the Giants have been one of
the best big play offenses in the National Football this
year league this year. Do you know what the Giants
rank Madden overall plays of twenty more yards per game overall,
whether you're not per game, sorry, overall plays of twenty

(12:05):
or more yards? Where they rank in the National Football
Left pretty high up? I would think eighth. Yeah, the
past plays of twenty plus yards seventh. It's really good
considering where this team has been at in that category.
It was one of the keys we had in the offseason. Right,
you have to make more big plays. And if you
want to look at how this Giants offense has really
succeeded is running the ball. They're fine, fourteen success rate,

(12:29):
twenty at th Epapril play, seventeen TV away They're fine.
They're not great, they're fine. But what's made this offense
different is their big plays. Seventh in pass plays of
twenty plus yards. Do you know where they are in
pass plays of thirty plus yards also top ten third, yeah, third,
with nineteen the big plays in the passing game. And

(12:49):
then I looked this up too. The Giants have the
percentage of passes that travel at least twenty yards in
the air. They lead now National Football League at eighteen percent.
It's like three percent higher than anybody else.

Speaker 3 (13:05):
That's kind of that stat in particular is kind of
insane to think about, considering what we have had here
the last couple of years, where we probably ranked among
if not lasts, pretty.

Speaker 2 (13:17):
Far down that list.

Speaker 3 (13:18):
Yes, in air yards of twenty players of twenty plus yards,
so at least they're you know, corking it down on
corking it downfield.

Speaker 2 (13:26):
And by the way, this has worked with three different quarterbacks,
Jamis Russ, Winston Wilson, and with dark Well Wilson had
won one good game. Well the only played three games.
It was still chucking it downfield. That's true. So give
credit to first Brian Dable and then Mike kaf Get
two for figuring out a way to manufacture more big plays.

(13:46):
And when I looked at the offense, that was a
big thing that jumped out of me. Third down they've
been pretty good eleventh in the league. The red zone
stuff still needs to get better. It's just not good enough,
just real quick.

Speaker 3 (13:54):
Yes, also give credit going back to what we were
discussing before, the offensive line. I'll put those plays downfield
don't have any chance to develop if the offensive line
isn't given any of the three quarterbacks time for the
play to actually develop.

Speaker 2 (14:07):
And that's where I was going next. So if you
look at pressure rate, Giants stolely ranked twenty third, not
very good, zach rate twenty fourth seven not what you're
looking at. But then you look at some of the
and again this is more of advanced metrics stuff. You
can either buy into this stuff or not. So I'll
give you two different sets of metrics here. So this

(14:28):
should give you an idea that maybe you should buy
into him a little bit. ESPN publishes Matt as you
well know, past block win rate every week, so this
isn't updated through this week, is updated through last week.
They haven't updated their Week twelve with the NFL season.
Is that a white chocolate you got there on that Colok?
It looks pretty good. Yeah, I love whitechocolate. That's not bad,
So we got me right, in the middle of that.
It's okay, I know, I know I did, and I

(14:49):
appreciate you jumping in. You see this is going to
work feed tomorrow, by the way. So so now just
through the guy uto the bus. You're screwed up today,
and that's fine. So in the past win rate metric
that the ESPN has, where do you think the Giants rank?
Past block win rate? This is on offense, Yes, offense

(15:09):
past blocking win rate middle of the pack, eleventh, even
better overall offensive line pass blocking grade Pro football Focus,
where do you think the Giants rank?

Speaker 3 (15:21):
I know pro fobo focus has been very high on
the Giants offensive line this year, and I believe I
think I actually saw this. I want to say, fifth, twelfth, twelfth.
I saw a different METRICFD at five.

Speaker 2 (15:33):
It is right in line with the ESPN number, right.
I mean if I told you before the year that
they'd be ranked eleventh and twelfth in those metrics, I
think we'd be having a parade and we were asking
for middle of the pack. Correct. I think you almost
aid eighteenth? Sign up? Where do I sign? Right? So again,
I thought that was that was interesting. They've lean more
into being a twelve personnel team this year, they're sixth

(15:54):
in the NFL and running two tight ends eleven personnel.
They're down to fifteenth. I think, no eighteen. Sorry, my
handwriting sucks. The percentage of eleven or twelve personnel six
in the NFL thirty five percent.

Speaker 3 (16:07):
And it's it's kind of crazy because the first three
weeks there wasn't much of it, and obviously after the
Maliku injury, I believe there's a heavy turn towards that.

Speaker 2 (16:14):
I can double check it. Last I looked they were
number one since the Laieue Neighbors injury. That's correct, Yes, absolutely.
Now this is the really interesting stuff, and I'll get
to the defense because that's a problem. And I do
find it interesting that when we asked about what player
we would draft, we would both pick offensive players, even
though that's been the strength of the team this year
and not the defense. But that's were also almost any Yeah,
that is correct. You did say that, but that was

(16:36):
but that was also your third option. That's true, all right,
So I broke down Jackson Dart in a million different
ways here in terms of this is all based on
EPA for play and EPA per drop back. Part of me,
so scrambles are included in this, and then I have
passer rating, which is kind of separate. So I broke
it down in different scenarios how he's done this year,
and I think it's an interesting deeper look into how

(16:58):
he's played. Do you think he's been better verse man
or zone this year? Man? No, he is fifty now,
that's fine. He is twenty eighth in the NFL and
EPA per drop back against man defense this year twelfth
verse zone. So found that interesting a lot of times

(17:22):
if you run a lot of complicated zones, that can
give young quarterbacks issues. Right, But you look at the
Giants wide receiver situation, maybe guys aren't getting opened as
much vers press man. That's why that can be a
little bit of a difference. And the pass rating numbers
are the same there overall. By the way, he's sixteenth
in EPA per drop back fifteenth and pass rating this year.
Jacks Dart can't complain excellent. Right, So now this is interesting.

(17:43):
You always look like, try to look at quarterbacks how
they do without play action, right, You want to see
him in a standard passing situation with that help, right,
how you're going against the defense, Where do you think
Jackson Dart ranks in EPA per play without using play
action this year eighteenth fifth. Wow, I'm just taking a

(18:05):
wild guess. No, I know y are, And this is
great because I think that would be the perception. Right
rookie quarterback without play action, he's gonna struggle a little bit.
Fifth eighth in quarterback rating ninety eight. Its excellent.

Speaker 3 (18:16):
I think the fact that even without the play action,
just his usage of his legs and running offers the
threat of, you know, a running play without it actually
being a play action running play.

Speaker 2 (18:29):
Now, here's an area where he really needs to get better. Okay,
and these are interconnected play action thirty two out of
thirty four quarterbacks in terms of EPA per play using
play action, and I link this to plays under Center
twenty ninth in terms of EPA per play as a quarterback. Now,

(18:50):
if you watched him in college, this should make a
lot of sense to you. He was a shotgun quarterback
in college and when he ran play action as more
of a shotgun play action in RPO where he didn't
have to turn his back to the defense, and he's
really struggled in the under center play action game having
to turn his back to the defense Matt in those

(19:10):
play act in under center scenarios. This year, he has
the highest sack rate in the National Football League. It's
it's seventeen percent, which is astronomically hot. That's thirty four
ou to thirty four qualifying quarterbacks. So again, something he
wasn't asked to do in college is being asked to
do more in the NFL under center play action, especially
with two tight ends, right, you want to lean into

(19:32):
that sort of thing with bigger personnel on the field.
That's something because again he didn't have to do it
in college. I think that's been a bit of adjustment
for him in the NFL. Yeah, one hundred percent.

Speaker 3 (19:41):
I mean I feel like that going into you know,
after getting drafted, going into his drug year, even regardless
of where he landed, Like around the draft time, people said,
this is something that Jackson Dart is gonna have to
develop as part of his game because he just was
not asked to do it in college. There's some guys
that were not asked to do something in college are
doing it in the NFL and immediately, you know, hit

(20:02):
the ground running.

Speaker 2 (20:04):
As the number show.

Speaker 3 (20:05):
Not exactly the case with Jackson but something that you
would think that as he gets more experience running that
you know, plays like that, he will get better because
you know, overall, I think we all agree as the
first numbers he gave. His overall numbers are good and
then strong yep especially given the type of plays that

(20:25):
he's accustomed to running. So given more experience, he'll get
better in those other areas.

Speaker 2 (20:30):
And tenth in EPA per play in the shotgun in
the national football which is excellent. Now, the last two
numbers I looked at were how he did against pressure
and how he did against the blitz, which are two
separate numbers, right, but you can get blitz but not
get pressured. So when under pressure he's twenty fourth in
EPA per play. With no pressure, he's thirteen who has
done better relative to the rest of the league without pressure,

(20:51):
And it's funny you think about him as the guy
that runs around and avoid stuff. You think maybe that
would be a little bit higher, but you actually like
that better. The more consistent metric is how quarterback does
under pressure, So you wanted to be better when he's
not under pressure, so that's a good number. Then against
the blitz, he's been better with against no blitzes than
he has been against blitzes, which so he's sixth in

(21:12):
EPA per play when teams do not blitz against him
in the National Football League excellent, and he is twenty
six in sackraying those situations, twenty second in EPA per
play against the blitz, which is, you know, like they've
bed better, but again and a rookie, you're going to
struggle against the blitz a little bit. This is a
consistent thing for rookies and thirty of thirty four quarterbacks
in sack rate versus the blitz. So maybe sometimes holding

(21:35):
the ball a little bit too much when he sees
the blitz coming, which honestly surprised me. I think he's
actually pretty good, been pretty good against getting the ball
out and finding open players against the blitz. I found
that sat a little bit interesting.

Speaker 3 (21:46):
But I feel like, especially given the sack number you
gave way earlier, Yeah, some of a lot of those sacks,
I feel like we're just him holding onto the ball
a little too long, trying to make something when he
you know, as we learned over the years with Daniel Jones,
you know, just get rid of the ball, throw it away.

Speaker 2 (22:03):
See It's funny. I thought a lot of those plays
came against not in a non blitz plays, But maybe
I'm wrong. I have to go back. When I'll do
the scenes are I'll look back, I'll look at all
the sacks and I'll see when they come. But yeah,
I think you're exactly right. Anything with the Dart stuff
you find extra interesting that I managed to pull. No,
I mean a lot of it. Most of it makes
makes sense.

Speaker 3 (22:23):
It was with you know what the eye test has
shown over the last whatever two months.

Speaker 2 (22:27):
I think you have to be encouraged by how he's
done in non pressure situations, non blitz situations, in shotgun,
when he's comfortable. That's a baseline you're working off of anything.
You have to be pretty happy with that, in my
opinion at least.

Speaker 3 (22:48):
Yeah, I mean, I think overall, most if not all
Giants fans are pretty happy with how Jackson Dart has looked.
It's it's kind of been the player sort of everyone
else that has been a little on the disappointing side.

Speaker 2 (23:01):
Yeah. The other thing I want to check here, and
I was rushing to get this done before the show,
and I did not have a chance to check it.
I'm gonna check it right now. The other thing I
think he needs to work on, and this is referencing
and you maybe remember it. I forgot to write it down.
I'm gonna look it up right now. If you look
at Jackson Dart's average time to throw, this is still
and I know for more mobile quarterbacks this is generally

(23:24):
a higher number, and I get that, But right now,
Jackson Dart has the sixth highest average time to throw
in the National Football League. The only players higher than
him are should Or Sanders at three point four seconds,
Caleb Williams at three point three seconds, Tyron Taylor believe
it or not at three point twenty five seconds, Justin
Fields at three point one two seconds, Lamar Jackson at

(23:47):
three point one one seconds, and here comes Jalen Hurts,
tied with Jackson Dart at six at three point one seconds.

Speaker 3 (23:53):
Notice a common theme around most, not all of the
most of those quarterbacks.

Speaker 2 (23:59):
I want to hold the ball and run around a
little bit. Yes, whether they should be or not in
should or standards case, but he and by the way,
he played a nice game yesterday. You did a good
job at it. And then you have the next guy's
JJ McCarthy Drake made Jayden Daniels. So I don't think
you want Jackson Dart living in a world where he's
holding the ball three point one seconds every drop back.

(24:20):
And it goes back to your previous point and something
that I thought about a lot over the bye week.
I think people have very much underrated the impact the
Giants offensive lide has had on the overall play of
the offense this year. If Jackson Dhart tried to play
the way he's playing this year, with the way the
offensive line played the last two years, he'd be not

(24:42):
healthy right now. He would not be and this offense
would be a mess. So I think to your point,
what's allowed the Giants to be successful and play this
way has a lot to do with that offensive line.

Speaker 3 (24:55):
And as of right now, three of the five starters
on the offensive line or under contract for next year,
the two or not two or not the whole right side, and.

Speaker 2 (25:04):
By the way, Runying and Schmidz are up after next year.

Speaker 3 (25:07):
Yes, where I feel like bo maybe, I mean, obviously
it depends on the moves that are made this offseason,
but BO, I think might get a look, a chance
to compete maybe for one of the spots and.

Speaker 2 (25:21):
I know this coaching staff season is a tackle, but
what's the next coaching staff going to see him as
I don't know you of us know that. Yeah, so
well if the wait and say, the defense is less
interesting because it's just not very good. And I don't
have any numbers to really change people's minds on this,
to be quite honest with you. DVOA twenty ninth Epapril

(25:42):
played twenty ninth, dead last and rushing on both of those,
passing nineteenth and twenty fifth. You can look at the
yards per game yards for play, it's all on the
bottom three or five in the league. Passing is a
little bit better than that. I always worry, though, Matt,
when teams rush the ball so well against you, it
makes your passing numbers look better. Just keep running it
so you're passing yards per game end up not being

(26:04):
as bad as maybe they should be. Red zone not
very good, third down twenty first not very good. There
just weren't that many interesting things here. One thing I
found interesting They really do mix up their coverages a lot.
They're not in the top nine in terms of coverage
rate in any single coverage, so they really do mix
up their their their coverage menu in terms of how

(26:26):
they do it. This is really the disappointing one to me.
And then we'll get to your cause I know people
are holding on the line here. I want to get
to you for the next forty minutes or so. Take
your calls. But twentieth and sac rate twenty fourth in
pressure rate, and going into this year, we thought that
was gonna be the strength of team and it just
has not worked out that way. Yeah, it really has not.

Speaker 3 (26:49):
And the interesting thing I find about that is this
was going This was after last week so going into
this past weekend's games, obviously the Giants did not play,
so these were thankings will likely change, but after thirteen weeks.
We were talking before about ESPN's past pass rush win rate.

(27:09):
Abdul Carter ranked eighth in the NFL individually in pass
rush win rate after a last week's game. Obviously, that's
only translated to one and a half sacks, which we
all agree is less than we would like, fewer sacks
than we would like to see.

Speaker 2 (27:26):
And his quick pressure rate on PFF is similarly strong,
so that is not an ESPN only thing.

Speaker 3 (27:31):
Yeah, but to see abdul Carter ranked eighth in that metric,
and Brian Burns was very close behind him. I think
at either tenth or eleventh SOKA two of the top
let's call it twelve pass rushers and past rush win rate.
And yet you just gave those sack numbers and pressure
numbers and the Giants are well down that list. That's

(27:54):
what I guess is a little perplexing to me. Like
you would think if you're two at least two of
your d rushers obviously Caveon Tibodau is in the equation
as well, but two of your edd rushers are winning
that often, that that would lead to more sax and pressures.
But it's not really been the case outside of Brian Burns, No.

Speaker 2 (28:12):
It has not been. It's been disappointing.

Speaker 3 (28:15):
All right.

Speaker 2 (28:15):
Let's get to the phones two A one nine three
nine four five one three two A one nine three
nine four five one three. We thank you for your patience,
holding We'll get to as many people as we can.
Let's go to Donnie and Queens. You'll lead us off today. Donnie,
what's going on?

Speaker 5 (28:29):
Hey?

Speaker 4 (28:30):
Guys? If I told you at nineteen nothing in the
Broncos game a week after Dresh of the Eagles, that
we would be in early December with the first overall pick.
You'll probably tell me I was crazy.

Speaker 2 (28:44):
I think I think everybody with Donnie, I'm with you
things things in this league can turn fast.

Speaker 4 (28:49):
Yeah here, but here we are.

Speaker 2 (28:51):
Yep.

Speaker 4 (28:51):
I've made enough negative phone calls for the season, so
I figured I'd just give you a couple of things
I have my eye on. Sure moving forward, you last
four games and you just hit on one of them.
And it's my My biggest concern about Jackson is he
he simply doesn't look comfortable under center. He's gonna have
to spend a lot of time on that in the offseason.

(29:12):
It just doesn't look fluid, even like getting out of
his brakes. And you know, I'm watching the Chicago game
yesterday and like, that's the offense. I want to see
the Giants run huntersender, you know, play action, leaning on
the defense. To me, when you when you name shotgun
all the time, it just limits what you can do,
particularly in the play action in the running game. So

(29:34):
that I totally agree on that that that's a big
thing for me moving fu and Donny.

Speaker 2 (29:38):
By the way, I don't know about Matt, but I've
said this on the show before too. That's what I
want to see the offense look like too. Make teams
onto your run game, pass off of that get downfield,
a bunch of crossers off that play action, Matt. If
that's the offense, I would kind of like to see
your next year as well. Oh.

Speaker 3 (29:52):
The thing is that Bears offense right now. Show me
a rushing attack that's operating more EFFICI even better than
the Bears. Not true, like the Giants just.

Speaker 2 (30:03):
Have a long committed to The Giants.

Speaker 3 (30:06):
Offense is a long road to go to get to
even close to that level of a running.

Speaker 2 (30:11):
Game, and especially with the two offensive line.

Speaker 3 (30:13):
Yeah, but that's what makes them able to run play
actions so much is because Ben Johnson, the ski. The
running scheme that they have going right now is the
best in the NFL, and they're literally running against it
doesn't matter who's going up against them. They are finding
success on the ground against everyone. They had success against
the Packers yesterday, who were one of the best run defenses.
Every week it's.

Speaker 2 (30:33):
The same thing. So I agree with you completely. It's
just it's almost like Ben Jonson knows what he's doing.

Speaker 3 (30:38):
Yeah, the offense is a ways to go to get to,
you know, that level where teams have to even come
close to respecting our run game like that.

Speaker 4 (30:47):
Go ahead, Donny, Yeah, well, I would say start with
not having your coach that lived in Shotga, but we'll
deal with that in the off season. The second is
I definitely think we need to see, you know, improved
level of play maturity out of a duel. You know,
to me right now, those are the two most important
players in the organization. You know, the first six seven games,

(31:09):
you know, it felt like the facts were coming. That
has not happened. I know he was credited one with
the other night and the Patriot game, but I mean,
let's be honest, I don't even know if there was
a yard lost on that Drake may Ray.

Speaker 2 (31:22):
I mean basically, Carter got stolen on his block and
Drake may Ray right into him.

Speaker 4 (31:27):
You know, you know I would have got filed over,
but I could have done that. Third, and this is
a big one, and make sure we get Andrew Thomas
to the finish line healthy. Let him go into an
off season where he's not recuperating, doesn't need to have
a surgery, doesn't need anything clean that In fact, I
wouldn't even hate shutting him down with the game or

(31:49):
two left, because my number four and final one would
be I'd like to see Marcus Bow get out there
and see what we have in him. They have a
big decision to make on Jermaine and what to pay him,
and I think getting some film out of Marcus would
be very helpful. So I would a kind of hope
up on the first pick. I do think they'll they'll
get a game or two here towards the end based

(32:10):
on the schedule. But those four things to me are
very important moving forward. So appreciate you. You get us
at the top of the show, and I'll call it
back before the years over.

Speaker 2 (32:17):
Thanks guys, No, thanks Donny, Thank you Donnie. Yeah, I
think he knocked off three guys pretty good. I'll say
this too. You know you talked about Carters. I feel
like even though he wasn't getting the numbers mat he
was more in pact Phil earlier in the year than
he has been the last few weeks. I feel like
once he came back in the last game after the
first quarter against the Patriots, I felt he did get
in the backfield a few times and he should have been.

(32:37):
He's going to give the backup left tackle. Yeah, but
I feel like, let's see that level of impact the
rest of the year. Now we did in those three
quarters rust of Patriots, Let's see that now the last
four or four game. If the sacks aren't there, let's
see the impact on the game.

Speaker 6 (32:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (32:51):
If you look at his analytics, it's like game log
throughout the season, you'll see the first couple.

Speaker 2 (32:56):
Of weeks he had made an impact.

Speaker 3 (32:58):
You know, he only he had the half sack in
the season opener, but he was getting a lot of
pressure and at least somewhat consistently the first couple of weeks.
Then he went through a stretch and long stretch where
he really was not making an impact basically at all.
And then I would say the last two maybe three games,
you've seen him pick it back up again. So if

(33:21):
he had been producing like he did at the beginning
of the season and then this last stretch all year,
I think his sack numbers would be significantly better. But
obviously you can't just eliminate, you know, like this a
six week stretch where he kind of disappeared, and that's
you know, that's the that is the reason why I
think his numbers and the perception of his play is

(33:41):
so off because when you're the number three pick, and
especially coming off the season that he had last year
at Penn State, you were expected to make an impact
and do it pretty consistently. And he can't go, you know,
a month and a half without really showing up at all.

Speaker 2 (33:56):
And look, he's gonna have Laramie Tunsel this week. He's
been running much more up on the right side of
the defense over the left tackle recently, so I'll call
that the matchup, even though he may move around. He
gets Tutsu's gonna get Darrisaw when they play the Vikings
in a couple weeks. Who just got back from injury.
Cowboys Tyler Guytan he's been in out of the lineup.
I don't know if he's gonna be healthy better than
of the year. He's an improved young player, but again
not he's not an upper echelon tackle. And then all

(34:18):
the Raiders Colton Miller's healthy, that's a challenge too. I forgot.
You know, their offensive line stinks, but Colton Miller's a
good player. So if he gets Miller on the left side,
so we'll say he'll have a couple of nice matchups.
To watch him against in the last four games.

Speaker 3 (34:31):
Of the year, which will I mean, he is one
of the guys I think this last month is the
most important for because you know, it's not gonna wipe
out everything from the first thirteen weeks of the season.
But if Aguil Carter finishes this last month the season strong,
you know, multiple sacks in this last month, a lot
of pressure, it'll just have him, probably himself, but I

(34:51):
think also just everyone else the fan base, you know,
anyone just feel a lot better about him going into
next year.

Speaker 2 (35:00):
And look and don't have another thing where you got
to get benched for a quarter without saying that's almost
number one before even the other thousand percent, thousand percent,
you know, there cannot be any more disciplinary related, no
things at all this last monthly.

Speaker 3 (35:16):
And on top of that, if he finishes strong, if
he gets this might be your stretch. But you know,
three sacks in the last four games, it might not
sound like much, but I think it'll give everyone just
some level of added confidence going into next year that
him burns and caveon because the three of them are
all at least as a now under contract to be
back that hopefully that unit with you know, a healthy

(35:39):
dexter Lawrence in the middle will help improve all of
those sack numbers.

Speaker 2 (35:44):
All right, let's go to Wilson in Roxbury. Wilson, hope
you enjoyed your bye week, sir, Hey.

Speaker 7 (35:50):
Wilson, I missed you, Jenny, I missed you, I miss
mad I missed everybody.

Speaker 2 (35:55):
But I haven't gotten to speak to you in a while. Wilson.

Speaker 7 (35:58):
Yeah, yeah, Matt, listen, uh yeah, something when you win
the Living Games in three years. Man, we are trying
to cling to something. We all trying to cling to something.
But but for a lot of people to think that
this kid is a franchise quarterback, it just you just
you just you're just trying to fool yourself. This kid

(36:19):
is This kid is a small kid with a below average arm.

Speaker 2 (36:24):
He doesn't have a blow average.

Speaker 7 (36:25):
I understand that it's a course round picked Jenny, but
he does.

Speaker 2 (36:28):
Not have a Lewisen. He does not have a below
average arm. I would call it and I would say
he's in. I would say he is an average NF
al arm. I don't think it's below average.

Speaker 7 (36:37):
You can win. You can win with.

Speaker 2 (36:39):
Of course you can, yeah, for sure, Okay, but but
will say, Wilson, Wilson, Wilson, just an example like his
arm and Joe Burrows are very very similar, in my opinion,
very similar.

Speaker 7 (36:49):
Okay, I'm just gonna say this to you, Johnny before
I get to Joshan real quick. We you know, I
know everybody knows that the Giants cannot cannot bring a
first year head coach here. They can't. They it will
be such a disaster that people will like blow up.
So they're gonna have to get a guy that that

(37:11):
been here, that's done that.

Speaker 5 (37:13):
Right.

Speaker 7 (37:13):
I'm gonna give you an example, real Okay, I'm just gonna
give your name. Let's say Mike McCarthy comes in, give
your name, just wander. Mike said, mister Marria, you want
me to lie to you. No, don't lie to me.
Don't like to me, Mike, don't like him. You're not
gonna win with this kid. You're not winning with this
kid as a quarterback. What do you do?

Speaker 4 (37:30):
What do you do? Because you have the first overall
pick as of today? What do you do? Jenny?

Speaker 2 (37:35):
Yeah, but Wilson, I would say, and I'm being completely
honest with you, just in terms of hold let me go,
Wilson in terms of tools, athleticism, arm strength, things of
that nature. I think Dart's got more of that than
than Fernando Mendoza.

Speaker 7 (37:51):
Well, Jenny, listen, he rented the blue tent this year,
basically had to play the NFL to to live in
the Blue tent. I'm saying that I think drastically has
to come pleasant top with this kise. For some reason,
it's got like a bulls eye iron his back. I
don't know if it's his personality, but but you know
that that tends to that catch us up with you.

Speaker 2 (38:12):
No, Wilson well, look, well, so look everything you're saying
Wilson is fair, and I don't think it is. And look,
coming off with Daniel Jones' first year, everyone was convinced
he was a franchise quarterback for a long time. Right,
So I think we've seen Wilson Levon, Well, hold on, Wilson, Wilson,
hold on. Let me finish. So after eight games that
Jackson Dart has played, he's had eight starts, correct, I'm mistaken.

(38:32):
I don't think we know anything yet. I think he's
shown enough that you need to see more and see
him in another year. But am I willing to place
a bet that like he's going to be the next
Eli Manning and the quarterback for fifteen years after eight games,
I don't think. I don't think anyone should be there yet.

(38:52):
And that's nothing against Jackson Dart. I would say that
about cam Ward. I would say that about a bunch
of other young quarterbacks the league too. I just I've
seen too much where I've seen guys play well for
short stretches and then it doesn't go well. I've seen
guys play poorly for short stretches then end up being
really really good. So I just think it's a very
small sample sized, Wilson. But I think you're we're talking

(39:12):
about next year, and I think Jackson Dart has flashed
enough and showed us enough, especially given what the quarterback
class looks like this year in the draft, that it
makes so much sense to make him the starter for
next year.

Speaker 3 (39:26):
Yeah, Wilson, my comment earlier, it just that last point
that John made is the reason, like, we're looking at
a quarterback class that does not have you know, that
Andrew Luck type prospect, that sure bonafide, you know, franchise
quarterback guy. So that combined with what Jackson has shown
us in this eight starts.

Speaker 2 (39:45):
I think that.

Speaker 3 (39:46):
Combined is more than enough to go into twenty twenty
six with Jackson Dart as the quarterback. I'm not sitting
here saying this guy, you know, guaranteed he's here for
the next fifteen plus years.

Speaker 2 (39:56):
Like we've seen things change so quickly in the NFL.
Never know.

Speaker 3 (40:00):
I'm done making long term proclamation. Ys me too, I've
been in the butt too many times doing that, But
I feel confident saying by far the best option going
into twenty twenty six.

Speaker 7 (40:10):
No, I understand that. But even that's how, that's how bad,
that's how I guess. Curse it's not the right word.
I don't know. That is just the way that the
bolts has fallen for Giants fans, that even when we
have won only nine or two games this year, and
we you know, we can get as high draft pick
and everything, even with all that, with all those high

(40:33):
draft picks that we had had in the past three years,
We're still gonna go next year with such a big
question mark.

Speaker 3 (40:42):
It is it is.

Speaker 7 (40:43):
I don't think. I don't know if another franchise you know,
goes through that, I mean, okay, like cam Ward, I
don't know but you know. But but you know what
I'm saying, even though we drafted a kid, but we
don't know next year, and we should have a better
sample of what we supposed to expect. But if I

(41:04):
go for what I saw this year, I said, well,
how is this kick on the last seventeen games? I
haven't seen him. You know, I haven't seen a wow.
Here we go, I haven't seen a WOW game. I said, Okay,
that kid has it. He's got it, he's got it.
I haven't seen it, Johnny, I don't know if you have.
I don't know if you Matt has have but I

(41:25):
haven't seen it.

Speaker 4 (41:26):
And uh and.

Speaker 7 (41:27):
Real quick before a lego guys and Joe Shane, I'm
gonna get in. Like I said, Look forget about a dull.
Corty's got a level wrestler. I don't know, but when
you draft I pay a number third overall player, he's
gotta have more impact. Half the time, I didn't even
I didn't even know he was on the field. That's
how baddest band. But I'll give you a few names.
Look Drew Felps Styling neww and Ted Banks, Evan Neil

(41:50):
Josh to do jailing higher, Kevin Thibbott or to a point,
all those guys haven't come in exist they have, they
have made zero impact on This team has too many
drafts pick Jenny, too many high draft picks that haven't
made no impact at all, and that that alone is
an indictment. And thanks again guys for talking. You know,

(42:10):
it was really nice talking to you guys after a while,
said Matt, have a good day.

Speaker 2 (42:14):
Thank you Wilson, good talking to you man. And look,
guys again, I would say this no matter what Jet,
what Jackson Daughter has done this year, it's just a
small sample size, and we've seen small sample sizes changed things.
But I feel, I mean I again, just because of
what the class looks like. I don't I don't even
hesitate saying four go a quarterback in this year's draft class,

(42:35):
like Jackson Daughter has shown me enough and I don't
know if he's had one wow game overall, Matt that
I would say like, all right, this game is what
blew me away. But I've had enough moments throughout all
his games where I've been like, all right, if he's
shown some special traits here, or if he can get
better at the every day, every down and down out

(42:57):
quarterbacking part of the NFL, which is getting the ball out,
all the quicker things like that. I feel like there's
enough there where he be. Can he can become a
very good quarterback in the National Football League. We'll see
if that happens. I think he has a chance to
do it. I think this will be an attractive job
because Jackson Dart is here. My guess is that they're

(43:17):
not gonna hire a coach you then comes in and says,
I want to change the quarterback. Is the guy that
wants to come here? Is gonna be a guy that
wants to coach Jackson Dart. And generally speaking, you talk
to people around the league, and Bob Papa does this
before games. He knows people on other teams and he
talks to them about Dart before the game. He's gotten
very positive reports on Jackson Dart. Other teams and other
coaches really like the way he plays. So I think, again,

(43:39):
still a lot to prove, but I think you have
to like what you see moving forward.

Speaker 1 (43:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (43:43):
Look, we're not sitting up here saying that it's been
a perfect season for Jackson Dart.

Speaker 2 (43:47):
No, because it hasn't been.

Speaker 3 (43:48):
There are things areas that John you touched on earlier
that he clearly just has to improve on in the
offseason leading into next year. That being said, he definitely
has shown enough flashes where he deserves to be the
starting quarterback going into twenty twenty six. I don't see
how that's even a discussion. No, you know, you can't

(44:10):
give up on guys that have shown this much promise
after one season. I don't think you should give up
after a first round rookie quarterback after one year period,
barring you know, like a Josh Rosen type situation, but
also one that's just played at the level that Jackson
has played for most of the time that he's been
out there.

Speaker 2 (44:28):
Like again, there are areas he needs to improve it.

Speaker 3 (44:31):
He cannot take this many hits on a weekly basis,
because you're right, he's just not going to last long
term in the NFL taking that many hits.

Speaker 2 (44:40):
No quarterback is.

Speaker 3 (44:42):
But I just want to point out that, and I'm
not trying to compare them as players as quarterbacks, but
just in this one pure simple fact as a rookie,
Josh Allen took so many hits, so many hits last
year as a rookie Drake May took so many hits.
Drake May obviously only too Josh Allen now in what
You're seven something like that, they Drake Bay. In just

(45:05):
one year, he has gotten a lot better and not
taking so many hits, not putting his body at risk
as much. Josh Allen has gotten significantly better now. He
still runs it a decent amount, and when you run
it that much, you're gonna sometimes just take.

Speaker 2 (45:18):
The big hit. And he's also two.

Speaker 3 (45:20):
He's bigger, yes, one thousand percent, But point being, quarterbacks
can learn to to not take as many hits. When
you're a rookie of twenty two year old coming in
trying to prove yourself, you feel like you're invincible. And
I feel like that the way that Jackson was playing
prior to the concussion was he kind of felt like,
I can I never get hurt.

Speaker 2 (45:41):
I'm superman, and.

Speaker 3 (45:42):
Then you get hurt, and then it's sort of like
a little bit of like a wake up call. And
I think as he gets more experienced, especially going into
next year, he will learn that he is so important
to this team. He needs to be out there and
you're not gonna be able to be out there every
single week, if you're taking you know, ten plus hits
every single game. That is something that rookie quarterbacks most

(46:04):
of the time do learn. Not everyone, but a lot
most of them do learn how to take less hits.
Jackson seems like a very smart kid. I feel like
he will be able to learn and you know, get
it through his mind that he needs to be out
there for his team each and every week. And the
way to do that is to not take quite as
many don't be will Levis well, definitely not. I just

(46:25):
in terms of willingness to take hits.

Speaker 2 (46:27):
Ye, he he was yolo. He was like, let's go boys,
and he would just run into people and get demolished
on a weekly basis. So you got to just not
do that.

Speaker 3 (46:37):
Yeah, And again, just looking at this upcoming draft, again,
we don't know where the Giants will actually land.

Speaker 2 (46:43):
There's still four more games to be played. You know
who's coming out. I mean, Simpson and more could both
go back in.

Speaker 3 (46:47):
Yeah, but regardless, you would think that there would at
least be you know, at least one quarterback that will
be at the top of the draft. And if the
Giants find themselves in a position where they can trade
down and pick up, let's say, a first round pick
in twenty twenty seven, which just overall is considered to
be a much stronger class.

Speaker 2 (47:06):
We've heard that before, but yes, we have heard that before.

Speaker 3 (47:08):
I feel like we hear it every Yes, we do, regardless.
But it makes sense. You know, it would put you.

Speaker 2 (47:15):
In a situation where you're.

Speaker 3 (47:19):
Stockpiling your draft assets, putting yourself in a situation where,
again you never know what might happen throughout the twenty
twenty six season.

Speaker 2 (47:27):
You have two first round picks.

Speaker 3 (47:28):
In twenty twenty seven, your own, and whatever team's trading up,
they're gonna have a rookie quarterback and probably not that
good of a team.

Speaker 2 (47:35):
So there's a chance that could be that.

Speaker 3 (47:37):
Pick from the other team could be a top ten pick, which,
whether or not you're in the quarterback business, you obviously
would like to have an additional top ten pick.

Speaker 2 (47:44):
All right, let's go to Jonathan and west Chester. He's
up next day.

Speaker 4 (47:47):
Jonathan, Hey, how are you guys?

Speaker 2 (47:50):
We're good.

Speaker 8 (47:51):
So not the reason I called, but I'm responsible, and
I do have to say I've been I've been very
impressed overall with Dart. I think you know, if you
look at the stats he also act to take into accounting.
He's had a bunch of passes, great passes that were dropped. Yeah.
So I missed the beginning of the show, and you know,

(48:12):
I apologize if you already touched on this, but I
was watching Joe Shane's press com Yeah, you know, Jonathan.

Speaker 2 (48:17):
It's funny. We did not do a show after that
press conference last week, okay, and I thought about whether
or not we should lead the show with it today,
but I felt like it was like six days ago
at this point, and it was a little bit of
old Newswhy decided not to, But feel free, you of
the floor talk about it if you want.

Speaker 4 (48:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 8 (48:31):
So there was actually a question that I kept rooting
for the reporters to ask it, and I don't think
I heard it asked. So my understanding is that Wandell, Bellinger, Lumnor, Flatt,
and mc fatt, and they're all going to be free
agents after the season, That is correct. Yeah, those are
all key free agents in my mind. I mean, you know,
we don't have to go through everyone, but won Dell.

(48:53):
You know, he's having a career year. I think he
is tough as could be. Flat is one of the
few ast sending players on the defense, loumn Or is
quietly having an excellent season. I think it right tackle,
So anyway, my question, you know that you know, maybe
you can answer this for me, is whether Joe Shane
has the green light for ownership to you know, push
to extend these guys you know, now or shortly after

(49:17):
the season before they hit free agency.

Speaker 2 (49:20):
Jonathan, that's actually a good question. I don't know the
answer to that. He did not say whether or not
he has engaged with any of these guys in extensions.
I don't think, right, I don't think that.

Speaker 3 (49:27):
Was honestly one of the things that I was most
looking for in his press conference last week, and just
based on how the season has gone, the Beat reporters
chose not to ask anything related to that.

Speaker 2 (49:39):
I guess because before the season they might have had.
Was there one illumin or bow question about offensive tackle
next year? We might have gotten one of those. I
think maybe, But maybe that was it. I mean, I'll
check the transcript. I do not remember, Okay, I could
be wrong. I could be wrong.

Speaker 3 (49:51):
I know he was asked about it before the season
started in his end of training camp press ofference, So
maybe I can't remember. Maybe he said, then, you know,
we're not going to really discuss during the season.

Speaker 2 (50:01):
I don't. I don't remember, all right, So what I
would say Jonathan really quickly about the presser. Obviously tough,
tough questions got asked, and understandably, so I think Joe expected.
I don't think he was surprised by the nature and
the tenor of the questions that he got. There hasn't
be enough wins. He knows that as of now he's
going to be leading the coaching search. So four games
left in the year. We'll see what happens after the year.

(50:23):
And I think he handled things as well as he could.
He knows he's made mistakes and then he made mistakes.
Things have not gone as well as he would have liked,
but he does think there are good pieces here and
we'll see what it looks like. When the season ended
four weeks, I don't, I don't. I don't know what
else to take out of it. Besides that there wasn't
a whole lot of news in there, you know what
I mean. He was not asked about depending from the

(50:44):
agents at all.

Speaker 8 (50:46):
Yeah, I mean my concern is that, you know, we
fall into this trap again, where you know, we bring
in a new general manager who wants to bring in
the vote guys, and you know, you have some very
good or even great players on the roster that were
brought in under the old GM. And you know, you know,
for example, the last time around, it was McKinney and

(51:07):
Love and Leonard Williams, and you know, you end up
losing these key contributors just because a new guy wants
to you know, kind of clean house to some extent.
So that's kind of my concern there.

Speaker 7 (51:20):
Now.

Speaker 2 (51:20):
Jonathan's fair, and I appreciate the call man, thanks so much.
Remember they did want to bring Julian Love back. They
actually offered him more money than the Seahawks did, and
when he signed there initially and Love's agent rejected it.
I think he can get more money elsewhere he couldn't.
And then the Giants, I believed, re signed Slayton on
the two year deal if I remember right, and then

(51:41):
they did had not everybody left under the cap I
think to bring Love back. I think it was Slaton
who they ended up signing up that situation, and they
just couldn't bring him back. So look, we'll say it's funny.
I don't know funny is the right word, but it
is ironic that coming off a season that's been a
colossus disappointment, some of the guys that actually we're playing
the best for you and are homegrown are actually the

(52:03):
guys that are coming up as free agents. So there
are gonna be some really tough decisions because you look
at it individually, like, yeah, these players are good players,
you think they can help you. They're not old, they're
all under thirty years old. But at the same time,
do you want to restrain and constrain and give your
cat potential future limitations to bring back guys that just

(52:27):
helped you to a three and fourteen record, You know
what I mean. It's just that there's gonna be a
tough balance to strike there when you decide who you
want to bring back and who you don't. Yeah, one
hundred percent.

Speaker 3 (52:37):
Uh, you know it will. We'll be up to you know,
Joe Shane at the end of the season. At this point,
I would be a little surprised if we find out
that they've resigned one of these pending free agents to
a big new contract in the last month.

Speaker 2 (52:55):
Something tells me Jermaine Luminor is gonna want to see
what he could get in the open market. I don't
blame him. I don't like to either.

Speaker 3 (53:01):
The only thing I will say is that the last
time the Giants chain general managers, Joe Shane did end
up re signing some of the guys that Dave Gettleman drafted,
obviously Dexter Lawrence Andrew Thomas being the big two that
are still here and still big time contributors. So even
you know, it doesn't matter who's brought in in whatever position, like,

(53:24):
it's not going to be a complete cleaning house of
every player on the roster.

Speaker 2 (53:29):
You know, you and nothing.

Speaker 3 (53:30):
You got to keep some regardless of whether or not
you brought them in, like you gotta keep. You don't
want to be in the business of losing good players.
It doesn't matter how they got to the Giants. Once
they're here, you want to keep the good guys here.

Speaker 2 (53:42):
I'm with you. I think that, Yeah, we'll see what happens.
Go to Bobby and nhlins Bobby, what's going on.

Speaker 5 (53:49):
Hike, Good afternoon, first time call. Thank you for taking
my call on the long time Giants has grown up
in Rhode Island calling. You're welcome. Just a couple of
comments and a couple of questions, if if I may,
if you can answer them. My comments at Giants have

(54:09):
been in like just about every game except for maybe
two of them, the last one against New England, and
I think the offensive line has played pretty well. I
just hope the ball club goes out in these next
uh a few weeks and plays hard to win each

(54:30):
and every game. Just like Jackson Dott has stated, I
hope they finished strong no matter what the draft situation
may be. I know that's important, but I would and
I hope Kafka gets a consideration to bring them back.

Speaker 2 (54:52):
What's that I said he'll be considered for sure.

Speaker 5 (54:55):
Yeah, I just I know I don't want to play
my in the morning quarterback. But that game against Detroit
when Winston threw the ball on the fourth down in
the red zone, I would have taken the three points
to win the ball game and make Detroit come all
the way down and score a touchdown. But that's beyond uh.

(55:16):
That's all in the past. I hope Kava gets a consideration,
and like going to the draft, I would try to
beef up the secondary. I think there's some weak spots
back there No matter. I mean, considering how many games
they lost in the last four or three minutes. You know, Denver, Detroit, Dallas,

(55:44):
could go on and on, but any any news guys
on Tippoteau and the health of the ball club going
against the Commanders.

Speaker 2 (55:55):
Thank you, Bobby, Thank you, Bobby. Appreciate the call, and
we appreciate you join in the show and calling him
for the first time. Welcome aboard, Please call again. Yeah,
absolutely know we have not heard from the coach yet
this week. We hope from Mike Kafka tomorrow. I believe.

Speaker 3 (56:08):
Yes, Mike Afka speaks at twelve fifty tomorrow over zoom
and then I don't know which players yet, but a
couple of players will didn't be speaking a couple of
minutes later.

Speaker 2 (56:18):
Yeah, so we don't know. Mike Kafka was a cage.
I'll use the word. I might guess that he probably
just doesn't know himself. The medical people don't know for
sure in terms of win or if Thibodau can come
back this year.

Speaker 3 (56:28):
The only thing I will say is that Kavon has
already missed three games and there now there's a bye
week as well. Typically, obviously this doesn't always end up
being the case. But typically if the team expects a
player to be out for less than four games, they
do not put the guy on injured reserve. If they
think it's going to be four more weeks, the guy

(56:49):
lands on injured reserve.

Speaker 2 (56:50):
Kaevon was not placed on injured reserve.

Speaker 3 (56:52):
So this should be about the time with the added week,
with the bye week a point, you know, it's basically
as if he had missed four game weeks. So you
would hope that he's you know, able to return to
the practice field this week. We don't know for sure.
I'm sure hopefully coach Kafko will give us some sort
of update tomorrow, but logically thinking it seems like at

(57:13):
least has a chance to play this week.

Speaker 2 (57:15):
More interesting, I'm guessing we're gonna see Mariota this week.

Speaker 3 (57:18):
You think, right, no, Because after the game, Dan Quinn
said Jaden is fine. It was a precautionary measure keeping
him out because they were already getting blown out.

Speaker 2 (57:26):
Oh interesting, I didn't say that that right to the reporters.
Right after the game.

Speaker 3 (57:29):
He said, Jane Daniels is okay, he could have gone
back in. We just held him out for precautionary measures.
So maybe not in that regard, I would think Jayden
will play. I mean, if he's healthy. I don't see why. Yeah,
he didn't reaggravate the elbow injury that forced him to
miss time. I don't see why he would not be
out there. Then again, I don't really understand why he's

(57:50):
out there at all.

Speaker 2 (57:51):
Right now. You always trying to win games, Matt, you
know that, I know, But that was a gnarly elbow
injury he had. Ah, this quarterback will need a little
left elbow at all.

Speaker 3 (58:02):
He's just that's the type of guy where every time
he gets hit I have to like hold my breath, no,
because he's just so small, like skinny, tall, big, but
he doesn't have like a ton of muscles. So any
time a big defensive player comes and nails him, I
like hold my breath. He's just scamp in half, right,
I know.

Speaker 2 (58:19):
And zach Ertz obviously with the bad in the enjoy
in that game that was that was a rough hit.

Speaker 3 (58:22):
Yeah, that was a rough He's towards a cl he's
done for.

Speaker 2 (58:26):
This, Yeah, and that might be his career too. That's
a sad way to end it. It is really nice
career for zach Ertz. H All right, let's wrap things
up with Scott in New Mexico. And by the way, folks,
I should say this I when they say this or
on the show, and I forgot I know all like
the Apple podcast and the Spotify like Year in Review,
things are coming up. If you guys do have us
on the top of your leaderboards and you want to
send them in to us on Twitter, please do that.

(58:48):
We'd love to see him. We'd be excited for that,
either for a big Blue kickoff or the Giants Tuddle.
I'll say this on our Giants Tuddle at the end
of the week as well, So send those in. We
love to see him and we appreciate all you guys
watching and listening and making us a part of your
off football fandom and giant fandom lives. Go ahead, Scott,
what do you got hey?

Speaker 6 (59:04):
Guys? First of all, in regard to Jackson, dor before
I get too many comments, I think Wilson tends to
over dramatize just a little, just a little, just a little.
I think he has a nucleus to be a good quarterback,
and he will develop into a good quarterback. Whether he's
a great quarterback is yet to be determined, but certainly
a workable one. As far as what you commented on

(59:29):
who you should take in your first draft choice or
whatever you're going to do portrayed down, I think you
should pay a lumin or whatever he wants and basically
take a wide receiver or somebody like Colonel take from
Ohio State because they need a great receiver to complement
in the league. Neighbors. Arry Slayton is there, but he's
a second good receiver, and I don't know if they're

(59:52):
going to be able to keep on.

Speaker 2 (59:53):
All and Scott. By the way, if I had to
make my decision right now, I think I would do
exactly what you just said.

Speaker 3 (59:59):
To be honest, agreed completely, re signed Germain and then
draft a wide receiver.

Speaker 5 (01:00:04):
Yes.

Speaker 6 (01:00:06):
So my main point is this, This has probably been
for me the most disappointing Giants team I've watched, and
I've watched them for a long time since sixty three.
The reason being is they have so much talent that
hasn't developed the way it is. And I want to
talk specifically about the backfield and some of the histicks
that are alarming to me. I'll just quote a few

(01:00:28):
because I'm not going to go into too many, but
just a feel the team opponent passing yardage percentage. The
Giants rate twenty seven, opponent passing yards per game twenty fourth, Yes,
not good. Passing yards on first down per game twenty ninth. Now,
I was supposed to be the saving grace for the

(01:00:50):
Giants was the defensive backfield, but Paulson Adido did not
play like he played in New Orleans.

Speaker 2 (01:00:55):
And by the way, fifteen plus yard passes allowed twenty fifth,
thirty plus yard passes twenty fifth, so they give it
a big place to write.

Speaker 6 (01:01:03):
So my question to you is is there a problem.
I understand that the defensive line coach or assistant defensive
line coach was fired yesterday, Brian Cox, which has nothing
to do with their obviously defensive line coach, but obviously
they're starting to clean house. But the defense has been
the biggest disappointment in the entire year because they had

(01:01:26):
talent and they seem to underutilize it. And with the
defensive backfield, that's the key. If you can't keep guys
from getting first downs and so forth via the past,
and you're in real trouble. They have problems otherwise. But
I was just wondering, and I'll keep it short, what's
the problem with the defensive backfield? Why aren't they playing

(01:01:48):
better than their you know, their positions indicate and is
it simply that they don't have the coaching, because that's
what I keep leaning back to. I had mentioned that
usually the buck stops with the head coach. You've already
seen what's happened and it's been a continuum for three
or four years. So what do you think has to

(01:02:08):
be improved in defensive backfields so they work as a
cohesive unit as opposed to being what they are and
not being able to finish games the way they're supposed
to be doing. And I'll take your questions off of
your guys.

Speaker 2 (01:02:19):
Thanks again, Thank you Scott, Thanks Goott. Look, I think
if that's not the number one question, it's certainly a
top three question. You have to figure out heading it
the next year, right, because they've matt invested a lot
of capital in the secondary right, Cordal Flats are free agent.
He was a third round pick. Deonte Banks was the
first round pick. Drew Phillips was a second round pick.
Tyler Newman was a second round pick. Javon Holland was

(01:02:40):
a big free agent signee, Paulson Adebo big free agent signee.
Those are all premium assets that were used to get
this secondary together, and it has not been as impactful
as you needed it to be given all the resources
you've poured into that unit. So, Scott, I usually like
to have answers for you, I don't necessarily have one
in this case. You hope the younger guys I think

(01:03:01):
just continue to naturally improve as they go. But other
than that, I don't have a I don't have a
silver bold here. MA have to be honest with you. Yeah, no,
me neither.

Speaker 3 (01:03:10):
I'd say hopefully next year we see more of twenty
twenty four Drew Phillips and Tyler Nuban, because I think
at the end of last season everyone felt very good
about those two being keys to the secondary moving forward.

Speaker 2 (01:03:25):
Agreed.

Speaker 3 (01:03:25):
Obviously, they have not had quite as good of a
season this year as they had last year, so they're
still young though. Obviously they're only heading into year three
of being in the NFL, so there's still plenty of
time to grow and develop into the guys that we
thought they were going to be after their rookie years.
In terms of the other guys, I mean again, I'm

(01:03:47):
with you. I don't really have an answer. I think
obviously Paul's and de Debo and Javon Holland are proven
veterans that have had success in the NFL. You know,
I think we just chalk it up to it, you know,
because the whole defense has been so bad all year
that they've just kind of gone, you know, gone with
the win sort of.

Speaker 2 (01:04:06):
And I don't think Collin's played poorly this year. I
think he hasn't made a ton of big plays, but
we haven't seen him Ayet beat a whole lot either.

Speaker 3 (01:04:12):
I don't think he's played poorly, but obviously, giving when
you get the contract that he got, you think you
were expecting him to be. I agree when I say
you anyone expecting him to be sort of an impact player, which.

Speaker 2 (01:04:24):
That he has not been. No, I think that's fair.
And the kind of same goes for a pulse in
the debo.

Speaker 3 (01:04:28):
We thought, you know, every each and every week, throw
pulse in the debo on the other team's number one receiver.

Speaker 2 (01:04:34):
That guy's locked down. Yeah, that has not been the
ki has not been the case.

Speaker 3 (01:04:37):
Now he obviously missed some time with this knee injury,
but that's no excuse because before the injury he was.

Speaker 2 (01:04:44):
Had some game like mixed mixed bag of performances. Yeah,
I agree with that. All right, I'm gonna ask you
one tough question before we say goodbye here. Okay, let's
say the Giants in the pick in again. I think
it's unlikely the Giants finished with the top bove roll pick.
I think they don't win a couple games the rest
of the way. I agree. Let's say they tick eighty eight.
You get there, Caleb downs is the highest graded player

(01:05:07):
on your board. He's still available. Fact, he might be
the highest graded player on your board. He's still available,
but he's a safety. You picked them?

Speaker 3 (01:05:17):
Yeah, ok at eight, I think it's a lot more
about six.

Speaker 2 (01:05:23):
If he's the top player on your board.

Speaker 3 (01:05:25):
Yes, okay, and especially if whoever is your top let's
say wide receiver or offensive tackle, they're already gone.

Speaker 2 (01:05:32):
Well, let's say your top wide receiver is still there,
but you have downs graded you know, four or five
spots ahead of them.

Speaker 3 (01:05:39):
Now in this hypothetical situation, yes, are either Cordell flat
or Wandell Robinson resigned because obviously.

Speaker 2 (01:05:47):
That Let's say let's say either both are either both aren't.
If both.

Speaker 3 (01:05:56):
Wandell and flot are back, that makes me think then
that Illumino probably is not back, so that I would
say offensive tackle. If neither of them are back, between
Cordell and Wandell, then I would hope at least that
Jermaine is resigned, so offensive tackle is not quite as
big of a concern, in.

Speaker 2 (01:06:15):
Which case, yeah, it's tough.

Speaker 3 (01:06:21):
I think if you have them very closely ranked, Caleb
Downs and whoever you're number one receiver is Cardinal Tate,
let's say I think you go Cardinal Tit.

Speaker 2 (01:06:29):
I think you're probably right.

Speaker 3 (01:06:31):
I agree, because Caleb Down Camble Downs. If he was
a shutdown corner, that's another conversation.

Speaker 2 (01:06:36):
But he is nice. The thing, if you draft Caleb Downs,
you're not throwing them aside. But the playing time for
either Phillips, Neuban or Holland, and it's not gonna be
Holland are going to be severely limited. It's not like
Ed Rusher where you could just have one of the
guys line up on the inside for a lot of
the snaps and you can rotate them in like it's

(01:06:57):
a lot harder to get a third safety on the
field a lot of the time.

Speaker 3 (01:07:01):
And Caleb Downs is kind of versatile, he kind of
maybe play some nickel. That's why I included Drew Phillips
into that in that group.

Speaker 2 (01:07:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:07:10):
Yeah, Look, I think we've seen this past year that
just because the Giants have some players that are good,
that doesn't mean they're automatically going to pass over a
guy at that.

Speaker 2 (01:07:20):
Position in the draft.

Speaker 3 (01:07:23):
But I would be the safety position is one where
it's a little tougher to do that, so I think,
and especially having picked Jackson and at least right now
feeling pretty good about Jackson Dart moving forward, you want
to surround him with as much talent and protection as possible.
And so if you can pair Molik Neighbors with a

(01:07:45):
top ten wide receiver, that's a pretty good wide receiver
duo for Jackson Dart.

Speaker 2 (01:07:51):
To be thrown past his two next year. So this
is fun, it's a good time. Good to have you
in Hackensack, Marity Hell podcast studio. Keep getting better. That's
all the time we have for a big Blue kick Alive.
Is that by Cadallaite, the official luxury vehicle of the Giants.
Great job by the callers, say we thank Bobby from
New Orleans for as a first time caller. Welcome aboard.
Hopefully you'll stick around with us, and of course we'll
be with you now the rest of the way. Well,

(01:08:11):
no shows on Christmas, even Christmas, and then I think
on New Year's Day New Yar's Eve, I think we
have a show. Have to double check that, but we're
with you. And then obviously when the Giants coaching search
begins in earnest after the season, we'll have coverage of
all that as well. So again sending those of Spotify
or Apple wrap ups wherever you get your podcast. If
you get those little end of year things, I'll show

(01:08:32):
you how much you listen. We'd love to see them.
Send them in thanks for being with us for Site
Tech on Sheelk, for Johnny Mack. We'll see you tomorrow
on Big Blue Kickoff Live. It'll be Lance and Cassius.
Now that we read Jigger things, so to talk to
them tomorrow. See that