Big Blue Kickoff Live 2/13 | Roster Building Strategies

Lance Medow and Paul Dottino discuss different ways the Giants can build their roster this offseason, discuss the top of the NFL Draft, and take calls from fans.

:00 - Final Super Bowl takeaways

13:10 - Giants roster

26:20 - Draft chat

31:50 - Calls

49:40 - Quarterback chat

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

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A part of the Giants podcast network.

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Let's go on on the buz of Crazy Dogs has
a fun Welcome to Thursday's edition a Big Blue Kickoff
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(00:44):
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podcast platforms everywhere and giants dot com slash podcast. So
a few days removed from the Super Bowl, I know
earlier in the week Paul, you add some takeaways that
you provided the audience. So we'll do a little bit
of a mishmash in terms of some takeaways from the

(01:07):
Super Bowl participants, what we learned from the NFC East,
and how all of that applies to the New York Giants.
And obviously we'll take your phone calls, we'll look at
your tweets and get plenty of feedback as well. One
of the things that I wanted to add Paul to
I'm sure what you and a few of our colleagues
discussed earlier in the week is it's not so much

(01:27):
just what the Eagles have done with respect to play
in the trenches.

Speaker 2 (01:32):
That's the easy thing to turn to.

Speaker 3 (01:33):
Right the offensive line, the defensive line, the depth they
have in that department, they can absorb injuries. I mean
we saw even in the Conference championship game, center, left guard,
they had to mix and match. It's how we Roseman
the general manager. And this is where I want to
bring it back to the Giants. Can the Giants develop

(01:55):
stability in a healthy situation to eventually get to this
point where you have the luxury where you can draft
a year ahead of schedule and you're smirking, and you're smiling,
so I think you know what I'm talking about. What
I mean by that is, okay, I do. You're bringing
in personnel through the draft. They don't need to immediately play.

(02:16):
They don't need to immediately be the monsters of the midway. Okay,
and get out there, and it's got to be a
baptism by fire. We always talk about a baptism by
fire with respect.

Speaker 2 (02:27):
To the quarterback position. But what the Eagles have.

Speaker 3 (02:29):
Done effectively is they have removed that from other key positions.
So they'll draft an offensive lineman, a left tackle and
he may not play until year two. They may draft
Jordan Davis, Jalen Carter and they may not play. I'm
not saying that they're gonna be on the sideline. But
the snap count, Paul, because you know starters, is misleading.

(02:52):
All that means is you're on the field for the
first time. I'm talking the volume of snaps is not
where you would typically think a high first round pick
or a second round there would be. That's how you
build substance, that's how you build depth, and that's where
the Giants need to get to so that we don't
have similar conversations year in a year out where they
lose Dexter Lawrence, they lose a linebacker, they lose a

(03:15):
running back, and everybody's looking around and saying, is there
somebody on the roster that kid forget matching the talent
can keep their head above water.

Speaker 2 (03:26):
I think a great example of this is one of
the guys who I absolutely loved in the twenty twenty
one draft, and that's Milton Williams the defense to tackle. Yeah,
came out of Luizi, out of Tech, and I've talked
about him a lot in the last week or so
as people have become more familiar with what he's done,
because it took him till this past season to really

(03:46):
prove his worth. His first couple of years in the league.
You'll remember lands, Oh yeah, you know he was drafted
in twenty one, twenty one, twenty two, twenty three. There
was not a whole lot there to talk about, a
lot of talent in front of him too, Okay, so
they thrust him into the lineup now this year where
all of a sudden, hey, guess what, I know you've
been here for three years, but now it's go time.

(04:07):
We need you. And look what he did, he was
really good, and then of course obviously had the really
strong playoff and terrific Super Bowl. And now he's a
free agent, and now they're gonna have to pay the
piper because he does want to get paid. A good problem,
no doubt. But to your point, third round pick who

(04:30):
was drafted at a position of strength, and I don't
necessarily know if they expected him to need all the
way to this season to come out of his shell.
I think they probably would have hoped he would have
come out a year earlier. That's fair. But that's a
guy who really fits into the Eagle plan, so to speak,

(04:53):
because now they've got a young player entering the prime
of his career with tremendous ups and if they can
keep him, they're gonna be really really happy. Now somebody
could swoop in and offer him Fort Knox and maybe
steal him. With the depth of defensive tackle in the draft,
I don't know. Maybe teams looking for defensive tackles would

(05:16):
rather draft a guy than pay some good money for
Milton Williams. But if I were to sign a free
agent defensive tackle, he'd be my top target on the board.
I just think the world of him, and I always
have since he came out of school. But I do
think to some degree lands luck also plays a part

(05:37):
of this because to have Quinton Mitchell and to have
Cooper de Jene fall into their laps in second when
everybody knew that their corner position was getting old and slow,
and then these two kids are just sitting there on
the board at both of their selections. That wasn't so

(05:59):
much than plan. Those guys were handed to them on
a silver platter. Well, and that holds true for a
lot of teams.

Speaker 3 (06:06):
Quinyon Mitchell I think, is qu just for our audience
understand luck is a big part of it. I agree,
but you also do your homework and you know when
to jump on a guy, because they could have also said,
you know what, everybody else passed on them, we're gonna
move on.

Speaker 2 (06:19):
Well, there were teams that thought the Gene might be
better off at safety in this week, and they said no, no, no, no,
we're taking them as a corner. So that's to their credit.

Speaker 3 (06:27):
Well, and also I'm surprised that actually you didn't bring
this example up first. A lot of people say, oh,
the Eagles are so lucky they got Jalen Carter because
of the off the field issues, right well, they were
willing to take a chance or there were certain things
that they were willing to bend on that other teams
weren't to each their own. So sometimes the draft plays
out that way with respect to the internet components.

Speaker 2 (06:49):
And let's face it, all, right, is Zach Bond what
he became for them this year? If Vic Fangio is
not the new defensive coordinator.

Speaker 3 (06:58):
No, fantastic signing. I mean he became an All Pro
player and he was a huge valuable component. And you
know what, you bring up an even better point now, Paul,
you talked about they have to determine whether or not
they want to re sign Milton Williams, and I wouldn't
be surprised if they let him walk because of how
well they've drafted. They also need to determine what they're
going to.

Speaker 2 (07:17):
Do with Zach Bond.

Speaker 3 (07:18):
And remember, linebacker is not a position where they've invested
a lot of money in, right, No, that was an
achilles heel of their team year in and year out,
the middle linebacker position. Every time we talk about previewing
Giants Eagles games, we'd be talking about they're susceptible up
the gut. Well, you weren't talking about that this year,
and he had a big interception of course of the

(07:39):
Super Bowl. It wasn't just his ability to tackle, it
was the bonus he gave in terms of coverage in
the middle of the field too well.

Speaker 2 (07:46):
I mentioned on one of the other shows this week
when we mentioned Bond as a potential free agent escapee
Jeremiah Trotter juniors behind him who they just recently drafted. Correct.

Speaker 3 (07:58):
So see, there's that process that plays out in I.

Speaker 2 (08:00):
Don't know how highly they think of him, but would
it shock me if Bond walked out the door because
they couldn't afford to resign him. That They've got a
lot more faith maybe in Trotter than a lot of
other people do.

Speaker 3 (08:15):
And that's the beauty of allowing Trotter to work behind
the scenes, evaluate him and then truly get to know
whether or not you're confident in bringing him along. So
that's yet another example of what we're talking about. Yes,
it's a luxury in today's NFL to be able to
do that, but it's a process that has played out
year in and year out, and I just want to

(08:37):
piggyback off of your point. So Milton Williams, I brought
up his snap count year one twenty six percent of
the defensive snaps year two forty five percent, and then
it went down a little bit this year because I
think they just had more of a rotation thirty seven. Then,
if you know what I stank correct, I just read
you Jordan Davis's numbers. That was another example I was

(08:57):
gonna give you. I think Williams's play less than you know.
I had both screens up. So, okay, Jordan Davis is
what I just read through, because he's another guy that
progressively throughout Milton williams numbers as I.

Speaker 2 (09:11):
Think they're less, I think script tap.

Speaker 3 (09:13):
Let's see Davis for him, he was at forty one
percent year one, thirty six percent, year two, forty six percent,
year three, forty eight percent, year four. So it's roughly
the same, yeah, I mean slightly higher, a little bit higher,
but the.

Speaker 2 (09:33):
Quieter though with his snaps, he certainly did not make
as much of an impact. No, that's very fair.

Speaker 3 (09:39):
I mean, Jordan Davis is not a big sack guy
in fairness to him, so I wouldn't read too much
into that I mean, the guy's got three and a
half sacks in three seasons played, but you could tell
what he does in terms of collapsing the pockets stopping
the run. Milton Williams once again, because the sample size
was small. If you look at his production, eleven and
a half sacks four seasons, and his breakout campaign was

(10:02):
this past year when he had a career high five
in that department. But you get additional production when you
play a guy more and you clearly feature him more.
I mean, that's a no brainer when it comes to
the NFL, and that's why you have more and more
confidence in parting ways with talent because you get to
the point where, Okay, this player similar two years, he

(10:26):
worked through the ins and outs of our system. Year three,
we moved on from the guy that was in front
of him on the depth chart, and then whila, just
like that, everything fell into place. They've done that with
so many players. I mean, we could do a whole
show on Eagles developmental players that became cornerstones as a
result of them not rushing them along.

Speaker 2 (10:49):
Fourteen of the eagles twenty two starters eleven offense eleven
defense in the Super Bowl were drafted by the Eagles,
that is a phenomenal ratio. And then if you include
gone to Johnson, it's fifteen because he was drafted by them,
who laughed and came back, Yeah, went to New Orleans.
Well that's the recipe. Let's not kid ourselves when we

(11:10):
talk about you build through the draft and then you
supplement with drafts, with a free agency and trades. That's
the kind of number you're talking about.

Speaker 3 (11:21):
Well, to bring it back though, to the Giants, Paul,
how many times have I done a show with you
and you've heard me say, it's not about this year's
draft class, It's about the accumulation right of the previous
draft classes. So if you look at the Giants as
we try to once again apply this philosophy to them, well,
I think you like what you got out of twenty

(11:42):
twenty four.

Speaker 2 (11:43):
You like the shuilding blocks, right, Sure, you like.

Speaker 3 (11:45):
What neighbors brought Okay, Nubin and Phillips, Tracy of course,
and some of the other guys. But can they build
upon what they did in twenty twenty before? How many
times have we seen a guy come in he flashes
one year and then all of a sudden year two
it's not picking up where you left off. So that's

(12:08):
now the key litmus test for this twenty twenty four group.
And then we're still having the conversation. Okay, twenty twenty two,
twenty twenty three, where are the key ingredients, most notably
Kevon Thibodeau and Evandeil. Who are your two first round
picks in twenty twenty two. Okay, well, we know the
trajectory and the story of Evan Neil and Cavon. He's

(12:31):
had to deal with some injuries. I think at this point,
you know you still want to see with Evan Neil.
It goes without saying, but you want to see more consistency,
You want to see more splash, you want to see
more bang for your buck where those guys were selected
in the draft and twenty twenty two, Okay, now we're
gonna be entering twenty twenty five. So Paul, we're talking

(12:53):
about we're entering now the fourth season of those first
round picks. You can't be asking you midway through the year,
what could we potentially get out of these guys. I mean,
you can't have those conversations this late into their rookie contract.

Speaker 2 (13:09):
Okay, but this is why the Giants are better off
than they were three years ago because at the end
of this season, fourteen of their twenty two starters were
Giants draft picks. Okay, that's a good number. We just
talked about the eagle wise, but now wise, that's a
good number. Well, now, what you want, as we always say,

(13:30):
it's about the development of those second and third year players. Yeah, Well,
the Giants have a young roster. We know that one
of the five youngest rosters in the NFL. Right, we
know that they were actually even a little higher than
that for most of the year. But I'll just say
five one of the five youngest. So you have the

(13:51):
bulk of your starting lineup, two thirds of it are
young guys that you drafted. Now it's the job of
those players to not only mature and improve, but it's
also the job of your coaching staff to develop them.
So the Giants are on the.

Speaker 4 (14:09):
Right track when you look at that model they've got,
they've got the blueprint. They're on the right track, but
they just aren't far enough along yet to be considered
you know, a better team. The results are not are
not coming to them in droves because they're not quite
to that step yet. But they're getting there.

Speaker 3 (14:31):
No, I agree with you in terms of they're getting
there from a volume standpoint.

Speaker 2 (14:35):
You have me there.

Speaker 3 (14:36):
It's where you're disconnected from the Eagles. Is the substance
behind the volume?

Speaker 2 (14:42):
Okay? Well, the caliber of the quality their younger players
must progress and reach their potential. That that's critical. And
you've mentioned that at inf Needom in the last five
years about how guys have to be able to max out.
It's not okay if you've got a bunch of really nice,
good young players and they plateau and they don't get

(15:04):
any better. That doesn't work.

Speaker 3 (15:08):
And you want to see when we talk about I mean,
I don't want to put words in your mouth, but plateau.
You don't want to see them hit their ceiling after
a great rookie year. No, you want that to be
scratching the surface of what they could potentially do. Mccason point,
you go back to the twenty twenty three class. I
went to twenty twenty two because they had two high
first round picks, and you look at year two for

(15:30):
Deontay Banks, John Michael Schmidts, Jalen Hyatt, Trey Hawkins, Eric Gray. Okay,
so we're talking about we're going five deep there.

Speaker 2 (15:40):
I'm not going to go beyond.

Speaker 3 (15:43):
I think if you look back at this past twenty
twenty four season, I don't know if I would say
the majority of those guys who may have scratched the
surface within twenty twenty three and at the end gave
you a whole lot more. Now, there were some injuries
involved here, and some has to do with lack of
playing time. Okay, I'm not naive, but I think you

(16:03):
really wanted more meat on the bone to work with than.

Speaker 2 (16:08):
What was on full display in twenty twenty.

Speaker 5 (16:10):
Foo you want out of that locker room or a
bunch of these guys to follow the path of Michael McFadden, Yeah,
who has gotten better every year in the league to
the point where he just had his best season just
now in your three, that's what you want.

Speaker 3 (16:27):
Year three is where you want. That's what you want,
breakout campaign.

Speaker 2 (16:30):
If all of these young guys could follow the Micah
McFadden path to success, now you've got something going.

Speaker 3 (16:39):
And what's great about McFadden is you're also talking about
a fifth round pick. But can you get that McFadden
production and trajectory from a second rounder from a first
round even go so far as a third rounder. You
know that's where you need to see the push. I
mean case at point Tyron Tracy another fifth round pick.
Hopefully he'll continue to blossom in turn into another Micah

(17:01):
McFadden esque story.

Speaker 2 (17:02):
Yeah, if this is the start, you gotta love it, absolutely,
But if this was the best he offers in his
NFL career, you're not so.

Speaker 3 (17:09):
Happy, exactly. And that's why I always say this. You know,
it's no different than when we receive callers about Jaden Daniels. Hey,
the Washington commander should feel great, but can we see
another year before we crown these guys, because there has
been the take a step back, not be nearly as
good and as productive as the rookie year. So my

(17:31):
approach of my philosophy is the same way with respect
to last year's Giants class. You feel great about the
number of guys that played, the number of guys that
took advantage of their snaps, but we're not even to
the point where we're in the business of crowning anybody.
You've got to see another really good season at that

(17:51):
same level before you say, okay, Hey, the Giants have
now foundational pieces where they've had X amount of games
and they're not playing the guest game of wondering what
exactly are they getting out of this personnel.

Speaker 2 (18:03):
I'll give you a guy on the other side of
the spectrum, and I hate to do it because I
really liked the guy a lot, But Aziz ol Jelry
showed so many big time flashes as a rookie. Yeah,
and he hasn't been able to either stay on the
field or consistently put a high level of play together

(18:27):
that would point the arrow up. He showed so much
promise as a rookie eight sacks, and I think it's
fair to say that that, unfortunately so far, has been
his best season. And he's been here now for four
years now.

Speaker 3 (18:45):
Part of it was injuries that I get it impacted
his level of performance.

Speaker 2 (18:51):
And again, Hill, I like the guy an awful lot,
and he's been very productive in the amount of snaps
that he's gotten over his career. That's all true. But
when you take a guy in the second round, you
don't need to talk about reasons why justifiable or not
that he hasn't become a bigger part of your defense.

(19:11):
You just need to know that he's a bigger part
of it, and that he's getting better and that the
arrow is pointing.

Speaker 3 (19:16):
Up and that unfortunately has not come to fruition because
if you look, if you go by your logic on paper, okay,
and you were to tell another front office executive, Hey,
i'm gonna give you in terms of your pass rush,
I'm gonna give you Brian Burns, I'm gonna give you
cave On Thibodeau, Dexter Lawrence will throw in there. I mean,

(19:38):
he's still a big part of that.

Speaker 2 (19:39):
And then he's gotten better every year. By the way,
there's a guy who has been ascending. He just got
hurt at the endress.

Speaker 3 (19:45):
And we're also talking about the pinnacle of all pro level,
which is what you drove for every type of the
arrow really went through the roof for them. The thing
is the Eagles have multiple Pro bowlers at that posis
they do, so it's a little bit different. And then
my point is you're also gonna throw in a zizo
jilari is that complementary third piece on paper? I mean

(20:07):
that sounds nice, does it, yes, But then you throw
in Okay, this guy missed five games, that guy missed
six games, and then you throw in when this guy
came back from injury, he didn't pick up where he
left off, or the star player didn't live up to
expectations of the contract, or the first round pick hasn't

(20:27):
been as disruptive as you had hoped. And then you're
now still in the land of the unknown a little bit.
And that's where the giants are volume wise. Once again,
getting back to your point, it's not lacking there in
terms of the numbers game. It's where the numbers game
meets the production game. That's where there is a bit

(20:48):
of space that has to be made up before you
can start saying you're in a healthy position and that
foundation can now have building blocks put on top of it.

Speaker 2 (21:00):
There are so many reasons why a draftee may not
reach his full potential in the league. Number one is
always injury, but there are so many other reasons that
come into play, and we don't have to spend a
half hour talking about those. Changing coaching staff so farth Oh. Yeah,
Sometimes its attitude. Sometimes it's desire and want to. Sometimes
it's in ability to pick up the playbook. Okay, sometimes

(21:23):
it's he's just a bad guy, doesn't get along with
his teammates and therefore doesn't mesh well. Sometimes it's the scheme,
flat out the scheme. It just doesn't suit his skills.
There are so many reasons that can thwart a guy
from maxing out. The problem becomes when you have a
bunch of young, talented players who you believe, hey, they

(21:47):
got the speed, they got the size, they got the length,
they got the frame, they got the strength. You're checking
all the boxes and saying, Okay, there should be a
lot more here on the back of the football card.
But uh, for this reason and this reason, it didn't
max out. But then you look at player number two,
and that is two other reasons why he didn't max out.

(22:10):
And then player number three has two other reasons why
he didn't max out. That's a lot, though, And now
all of a sudden, you've got a bunch of players
who did not max out, and your entire evaluation process
goes for naught because you didn't get enough of players
to max out to what they should have become, and

(22:31):
because it may not necessarily be the same reason with
each one of those guys who fell short. You're left
with a very nasty puzzle that is not very easy
to fix. And here's the other difference.

Speaker 3 (22:46):
See, when you're the Giants and you're in that position,
you can't take.

Speaker 2 (22:50):
A strike or two Paul, No, okay.

Speaker 3 (22:52):
You can't swing or miss at the plate. No, meaning
every single pick, especially high, has to hit. But you
notice because of the Eagles track record, and this is
another difference. You know, let's not paint a rosy picture.
The Eagles have had some misses.

Speaker 2 (23:07):
I was gonna bring.

Speaker 3 (23:08):
Andre Dillard is probably one of the more recent examples
that encompasses what we're talking about. He was there, twenty nineteen.

Speaker 2 (23:16):
First round pick.

Speaker 3 (23:17):
Okay, Andre Dillard. When he was drafted, everybody was saying, oh,
this is beautiful. They go from Jason Peters to Andre Dillard.
It's like that from David Robinson to Tim Duncan, right,
Brett fav to Aaron Rodgers. There's no in between, there's
no interruption.

Speaker 2 (23:32):
Man, did he flame out?

Speaker 3 (23:33):
Well, they didn't have anything to show. But when you
look at what else they took in the draft and
you see the other offensive linemen or the free agents
or the undrafted guys or you know, getting guys who
played rugby in Australia. Okay, my lot, I'm talking about well,
I mean really, seventh round pick.

Speaker 2 (23:56):
No, how do they find these guys?

Speaker 3 (23:59):
Oh, you can't afford then to have Andre Dillard not
pan out. The Giants though, are not finding guys in
the middle of Australia down Under playing rugby.

Speaker 2 (24:11):
Well, the one common factor, and I shouldn't say common,
but the one factor that seems to have sidetracked most
of the giants better prospects in the last few years
from reaching their full potential is injury. Unfortunately, right Tippodeau
broke his wrist. O Ja Lorry's had multiple things happening.

(24:33):
The issue happened to his legs, you know, you talk
about Cordell Flatts had multiple muscle pulls, you know, to
his lower half of his body. And you talk about
these guys Wandel Robinson blew out his knee.

Speaker 3 (24:49):
Some offensive linemen all right over the years. Really you
go way back, so the offensive line.

Speaker 2 (24:54):
Unfortunately in the Giants case, although there have been a
number of other players that maybe had some different things
also prevent them from maxing, the injury bug does seem
to be the one that has hurt the Giants the most.
When you talk about guys who should have been very
good NFL players, and they just never panned out and

(25:17):
got to where they were supposed to be.

Speaker 3 (25:19):
Well, I mean, that's why we're adding the context. But
once again, there is no room for excuses in the NFL.
The league doesn't give you an extra picky. Don't say, hey,
we're sorry this guy got.

Speaker 2 (25:28):
Hurt injury or injury.

Speaker 3 (25:30):
You love that. I'm sure to balance things out given
you know you're thinking and so forth. But they don't
operate like that. No, So, yes, there's legitimacy pull. I'm
not disputing it. It's facts you're dealing with. But okay,
the answer by the NFL is deal with it, right, fine,
guys in the fifth round, five guys in the sixth round.

(25:50):
Jalen Rager, by the way, is another guy that I
just wanted to reference to vals right justin Jefferson's the
Viking said thank you very much. But you know rayger Dillard,
So I don't want to make it seems if everything
the Eagles touch turns to gold.

Speaker 2 (26:02):
That's not the case.

Speaker 3 (26:03):
It's just when you are in a position where there's
a lot of substance and you're hitting in the later rounds,
it's okay if you don't get one or two right
even high on the draft, and that's the biggest difference
right now between these teams. So we'll open up the
phone lines. Curious your feedback on what we've been hammering

(26:23):
home here in the early stages.

Speaker 2 (26:25):
A big blue kickoff Live two zero one nine three
nine four five one three.

Speaker 3 (26:28):
Is the telephone number. You can tweet it us as
well hashtag giants check.

Speaker 2 (26:31):
Can we just throw out a little bit of NFL news?
We do know the Jets have now officially announced they
have informed Darren Rodgers that they're parting ways with him.

Speaker 6 (26:40):
Ye.

Speaker 2 (26:41):
Also today, the NFL released its list of players for
the scouting combine coming up in Indianapolis at the end
of next month. Three hundred and twenty nine prospects have
been invited to the combine, and I know that number
has crept over three hundred in recent years. I can't
remember now if this is the most, but I know
it's been getting higher and higher, and I think this

(27:04):
may be the most that we've seen. And you know,
I'm looking at this and I'm saying to myself, man,
oh man, oh man. You know, these scouts got a
lot of work cut out for them. Because there is
just a plethora of players. This this whole thing has
become such a circus. And I don't know how many
how many times have you been at all after the combine, No,

(27:24):
I've covered it from afar Okay, so I've had the
opportunity to go to about half a dozen in recent
in the last decade, and even in that short period
of time, it has become an absolute circus. And you know,
I get it. I understand that it needs to be
what it is. You know, you need all the players there,

(27:47):
you need all the medicals, you need to have all
the interviews and stuff, but so much of the rest
of the of the festivities, if you will, around it,
plus the underwear Olympics when they actually do the you know,
the testing in the in the underwear so to speak,
you know, shirts and shorts. I just wonder if we
just haven't kind of overblown this whole thing a little bit.

Speaker 3 (28:10):
Oh, just a tad if you want to, I'll right,
the tad, just the tad.

Speaker 2 (28:15):
But but it is necessary, and again more for the
physicals and for the interviews more than anything else. But
but you know, and they've changed a lot of the
events that they do it's the last few years they've
changed the events a lot. But in any event, I
just wanted to mention that because that's that's some real
news that did come out today.

Speaker 3 (28:34):
And Hey, if any of the scouts need a helping hand,
you can chime in on your scouting reports for all
three hundred and twenty nine that you'll get to what
is going to take you about the next three days?

Speaker 2 (28:43):
Right, you should have them whole you're I think a
whole print out. You know what. I don't think I'm
going to do one hundred and fifty players like I
did last year. That was too much. Really, Yeah, I
did about one hundred and fifty last year.

Speaker 3 (28:55):
So you're now evolving and rethinking your game plan. So
what's the magic number?

Speaker 6 (28:59):
Then?

Speaker 3 (29:00):
If one shares too much yet, what's the ballpark figure
you're aiming for? Maybe all right, so you're gonna cut
sacrifice thirty players, thirty players that would have had the
honor to be reviewed the team. Think about how unfulfilled
their lives are going to be moving forward. I hope
you very carefully select who you're going to chop off

(29:21):
at the line of demarcation.

Speaker 2 (29:23):
Let me let me, let me point this out to
you as far as we know right now that the NFL,
I don't believe they've officially given the full draft order
out yet? Have they the full draft order?

Speaker 3 (29:33):
You're talking about a press release from the league.

Speaker 2 (29:36):
Yes, the league usually does. They usually give out Do
we know if that's out yet?

Speaker 3 (29:41):
I'll tell you why. I mean, they're going to have
to do that because now waivers, remember go into the
draft order.

Speaker 2 (29:48):
Yes, and they also have to give out compensatory picks.

Speaker 3 (29:51):
So the league I'm sure has made some type of
declaration at least to the teams because of the waiver process.

Speaker 2 (29:57):
Now, all right, so tank a thon one of the
websites that does track a lot of draft stuff at
all the different sports. They've got the Giants in the
fourth round, their pick at one oh four, Okay, so yeah,
I'll be honest with you, I'll probably cut off at
about one.

Speaker 3 (30:14):
Twenty, okay, So you go based on where the Giants
have a pick in that four It.

Speaker 2 (30:19):
Does, It does influence my decision in terms of how
deep I'm going to go. Okay, well, because you know,
there's only so much I mean, between the calls that
I make, the research that I do all the cut
up video that I have to watch and I cram
it into like the next two months. It's insane. I mean, oh, you.

Speaker 3 (30:38):
Don't have to convince me. You just have to convince
them watching and listening again. No, no, not so trust me. No,
you don't have to spend the next few minutes. I've
seen it.

Speaker 2 (30:45):
So it is insane. And you have a lot of
friends who do this for twelve months out of the year.
I know it's insane, and for me to do the
cramming that I do, Yeah, I'm probably gonna go at
around one twenty with the Giants picking at one oh
four and then not having another pick until one fifty five,
and that would be in the middle of the fifth

(31:06):
round according to Tankathon, So I'll probably go about one
twenty in terms of real study on guys, so sixteen
additional spots beyond the Giant's fourth round pick, that's probably
That's probably where I'm we like to work in mathematics
here on Big Blue Cat, and then you know what's
gonna happen. There're gonna be some nights I'm up at
three thirty four o'clock in the morning and I'm like,

(31:28):
let's push it for another hour, and that I'll wind
up doing another five guys. That's why I'm not sold
on this one twenty. This is to be revisited.

Speaker 3 (31:37):
You're gonna get trust me, before you know it, you'll
be more in the territory of one fifty.

Speaker 2 (31:41):
I'm not convinced I might wind up. There's gonna be.

Speaker 3 (31:45):
Some late nights, early mornings. I should say, where you know,
you're in front of the computer, and uh, we're gonna
get that number up, all right, while we keep count
of Paul's draft order and his tankathon. Let's open up
the phone lines here we check in on Jason in
New York here on BBKL. What's happening to Jason?

Speaker 2 (32:02):
What you got for us?

Speaker 6 (32:04):
Hey? How are you guys right?

Speaker 2 (32:06):
What's my mind?

Speaker 6 (32:08):
So? I'm just talling about the Eli Manning Hall of
Fame boat, and I have to tell you, as a
as the season take a holder for the Giants and
a person who was a huge fan of Eli Manning,
I'm kind of disgusted in the NFL. How could this
guy not being on the first ballot Hall of Fame
when he retired, he was in the top ten in

(32:29):
every statistical category as a quarterback. I think he's still
eleventh in a couple of those categories, the two Super Bowls,
the m vts, And you know, I think what a
lot of people don't think about when and I argue
about this for giant fans all the time, like coll
me a Hall of Fame offensive player that Eli Manning

(32:50):
ever played with, and they're none. I mean there's not
there's not one. So for him to not get into
the Hall of Fame on the first back when a
couple of these other guys did, to me, it just
doesn't to me. So the Hall of Fame doesn't fight
me as much. And that's not just in football. I

(33:11):
think that's any sport. Some of the guys that don't
get in, whether they're first ballot not first ballot. And
you know what your thoughts on that are.

Speaker 2 (33:21):
I don't know, if you want. I've talked about this
a lot in the last two weeks, so I don't
think what's what's there for me to add. I agree
with the caller. I think the whole thing was just
very misguided.

Speaker 3 (33:32):
Well, listen, I understand that perspective, Jason. I'm gonna disagree
from the standpoint of I mean, Antonio Gate should have
been a first ballot Hall of Famer and.

Speaker 2 (33:40):
He had to wait a year.

Speaker 3 (33:41):
So if a guy like that, who is arguably one
of the greatest tight ends, he's also on the Old
Decades team, and pretty much everybody on the Old Decades
team that the NFL unveiled what around the fiftieth anniversary
has gotten in. I mean that to me should put
things in perspective that I understand, you're a Giants fan.
You love what ELI did, and that's all great, and
there's nothing wrong with that. But I think if you

(34:02):
maybe take a bit of a step away from that investment,
I think you'll see other players that were worthy of
being first ballot Hall of Famers and did not get
that benefit of the doubt. So that's why I'm not
as alarmed that Eli did not get in. And when
I was on with John, I think it was last
week or it was right before they were making the
announcement for NFL honors.

Speaker 2 (34:21):
I brought up Kurt Warner.

Speaker 3 (34:23):
Because a lot of people bring up Kurt Warner and
he didn't have nearly as long as a career, but
Kurt led the NFL in several categories multiple seasons, and
that does hold weight. Eli benefits from the cumulative effect,
meaning the durability of his career where he ranks in
terms of total yardage. But Kurt had an MVP Award,

(34:44):
he had signature seasons where he led in completion percentage.
And if you look at the track record of Hall
of Fame voters, that gives guys a bit of an edge,
and Eli is lacking that on his resume. So when
you take that into consideration and having other players that
deserve to be first ballot Hall of Famers, I'm not
as surprised at all in terms of how they's played out.

Speaker 2 (35:05):
Carlin, here's what I will say, all Right, I don't
want to rehash all this because I've got about five
thousand pounds on this side of the scale that says
Eli needs to be a Hall of Famer, and is
about five ounces on the other side that says he's
not a Hall of Famer. The whole first ballot thing
I think is absurd. If a guy's a Hall of Famer,
he's a Hall of Famer. He's not going to play

(35:26):
another snap for the rest of his career, So what
does it matter what year he gets in, Especially because
in the Hall of Fame. The bust is there, the
guy's name is there. There is no identification on the
bust or his induction. They don't have a plaque like
a Cooper's town where it says he was a first
ballot inductee. It doesn't matter. Once you're in, you're in.

(35:47):
So this whole thing about reserving first ballot for guys
who are extra special, I think is entirely bogus. But
that's a philosophical problem that I have with the committee,
and it's not necessarily specifically about Eli. Man, it's about
every player. I think first ballot is just a bogus
standard for anybody. Now, the other thing that I would

(36:07):
say and caller, I'm going to give this to Lance
and then we'll let you respond real quick. The other
thing was one of the major points of contention in
the room against Eli, and I know you're going to
fight back on this, and I'm gonna be proud of you.
Was his five hundred regular season career record. They use
that as a gigantic time bomb against him, and you

(36:29):
and I both know that is completely bogus.

Speaker 3 (36:31):
Oh, you know how I feel about quarterback right now.
That's why it's a team reflect.

Speaker 2 (36:34):
That's why I'm giving it to you, not a quarterback.
But and they use that as a major punch to
Eli's candidacy, and that's bogus.

Speaker 3 (36:43):
Well, that's why to me, if I'm the voters, and
we'll let you jump in here, Jason Era, second, I
would if you want to nitpick, or you really want
to put him under the microscope, then utilize his touchdown
to interception ratio or things that are in tune with
the individualized position, which also is contribute contribution down players
around you. But that, to me, I'll buy more so

(37:04):
than how the Giants fared with Eli Manning under center.

Speaker 2 (37:07):
There's a variety of reasons behind that.

Speaker 6 (37:09):
Go ahead, caller, Yeah, no, I agree, And I agree
with you about the Hall of Fame hall that either
you're a Hall of Famer or you're not. You know,
the question on you know, when you get in, it's
either you are or not. You know, Oh, you know,
because he doesn't get in this year, he's going to
get in next year. You know why because now now
we realize as a Hall of Famer or oh now

(37:30):
you know, we realize we messed up. Either the guy's
a Hall of Fame if if you can't look at
a guy and say he's a Hall of Famer, he
can guess what he's not a Hall of Famer. And
to me personally, I just again, I go back and
I look at you, and Eli played with some good players.
I'm not saying then you had a good offensive line
the years of the Super Bowls, but none of those
guys are Hall of Famers. And you look at a

(37:51):
lot of other great quarterbacks that are in the NFL,
and guys that I don't even think are as good
as Eli Manning that got in on the first ballot.

Speaker 3 (38:00):
Well, like, who I mean, Jason, I don't mean to.
I don't mean to. I don't mean to press or
belabor the issue. But Jason, when you make a statement
like that, that's a big generalization. Can you give me
an example of another quarterback that got because I just
brought up, I have in front of me all the
first ballot hall of famers in the history of the
Pro Football Hall of Fame, and in the last if
you go back to two thousand and six, so I'm

(38:22):
giving you about a twenty year span, the only quarterbacks
that got in on the first ballot going back to
six is Troy Aikman, Brett Favre and Peyton Manning. I
mean that is a select elite few were talking about.
You know, if you were going to give me some
complimentary guys and say, well, how did this guy get

(38:43):
in and not Eli, I think he got much more
of a substantive argument. It's just those three guys.

Speaker 2 (38:47):
That's it.

Speaker 6 (38:48):
So I'll think me watching Troy Aisman and watching I
think Eli Men is a better quarterback Troy Aikman. Say
how many great players Hall of Fame to Troy de
Troy had been played on some of the best teams
of all times, had numerous Hall of Famers that he
played with, you know, and if you look at a

(39:09):
screwer numbers to Gerbie Eli Manning.

Speaker 2 (39:12):
Well it's a different time.

Speaker 3 (39:13):
I mean, you know, that's why I really don't think
it's a great comparison, because Eli played more in a
passing error. Troy Aikman played in more of a running
error with EMMITTT. Smith. To your point, he was part
of one of the greatest NFL dynasties, So let's not
be naive that's gonna help him. He's a six time
pro bowler, so he's got more in terms of the
individualized accolades than Eli. I mean, I could go up

(39:35):
and down the list. I do think there is yeah.

Speaker 2 (39:38):
Well, without a doubt.

Speaker 3 (39:39):
But but you can't you say that most Hall of
Fame players were on good team. Payton Manning was surrounded
by a lot of great talent, was he not an Indeed.

Speaker 2 (39:46):
I'll make this easy for both of you, Okay, if
you wanted to take all the emotion and all the
intangibles out of it, and I don't think you can
when you talk about a quarterback. Because Eli's durability record
absolutely should count and he deserves for him, so should
the two Super Bowl MVPs when on both of those runs,
outside of the Atlanta home game in the first round

(40:08):
of the playoffs in twenty eleven, they were underdogs in
every one of those games, and he brought them back
and won those games in coming from behind. Those are
all those are all pluses for him, in addition to
the teams that he beat in those games. Those are
all pluses for him. But let's just go to Pro

(40:28):
Football Reference for one second. If we strictly went by numbers,
and they do strictly a mathematical computation of every quarterback
based on their entire passing record across the board. Right,
it's a strictly now math. This has nothing to do
with intangibles or what we saw or what we feel.
This is strictly based on mathematical numbers. And they've got

(40:52):
all the all time quarterbacks listed. Eli Manning's total value
number is ahead of Hall of famers Ken Stay, it
was Sonny Jerkinson, Bob Greasy, Warren Moon, Joe Namath. Who's
a different case because of Super Bowl three, And I
would argue he belongs because of Super Bowl three, no
matter what his record is. Len Dawson, Troy Aikman, and

(41:13):
Jim Kelly all behind Eli Manning significantly, some of them
on the pure statistical analysis by Pro Football Reference, which
does not indicate emotion, in tangibles or anything else. So
if he's higher than all those guys, how do you

(41:34):
look somebody in the eye and say, I'm not voting
for him. I think that's a very simple question, right.

Speaker 3 (41:41):
Oh, I mean, but once again, they're not saying that
they're not voting for him, they're just not putting him.

Speaker 2 (41:44):
In the first ballot.

Speaker 3 (41:45):
Well, let's me that's a different conversation.

Speaker 2 (41:48):
Let's hope that those people who signify first ballot as
being important change their votes to yes on the second ballot.

Speaker 3 (41:55):
Well, I don't know if that's gonna happen. I mean,
look how long, Eric Allen. I mean, guys have waited
a lot on time, Paul. Plus, remember Drew Brees is
going to become eligible. You got to take it to
consideration the guys that all of a sudden join the field. Okay,
an annual basis, you don't take some time. You got
at least people, and I know it could happen. Just
telling you, I know it could happen.

Speaker 2 (42:16):
Justified, though, how do you punish a guy who clearly
has the credentials We've said, okay, we're not putting him
in a frost ballot because first ballot is special. So
now we're gonna have to wait wait till the second ballot.
Oh wait a minute, second ballot. There's a bunch of
other guys who were Hall of famers too. We're gonna
have to wait wait till third ballot. Oh, third ballot. Now,

(42:39):
now another guy's up. Well there's two. So now now
what you're doing it though, But what you wind up
doing is making excuses not to put the guy in
when you make him wait like that, year after year,
you're coming up with excuses not to put him in,
even though you've already decided, well, he's Hall of Fame worthy.
But oh wait a minute, there's a reason not to

(43:00):
vote for him. Now, that's that's just it's just preposterous.

Speaker 3 (43:04):
If you ask me, well, I mean, sorry, listen, I
understand that, but I think it's more of I wouldn't
necessarily look at it. You're punishing the player. I think
you're also looking at the caliber of the guys that
are now eligible. For example, I believe Larry Fitzgerald and
Drew Brees will both be in the field next year.
You can make an argument both of those guys are
first ballot Hall of Famers.

Speaker 2 (43:24):
I don't Again, you know, I don't know. The first
ballot thing doesn't carry for me. But the only reason
why I'm bringing that up there are Hall of famers
in my mind. Okay, but I would vote for them
any year. But what a year?

Speaker 6 (43:36):
Sure?

Speaker 3 (43:36):
Okay, But what I'm saying is the reason why I'm
classifying at first ballot is that could get in the
way of Manning getting more votes to reach eighty percent.

Speaker 2 (43:45):
Now we're talking about.

Speaker 3 (43:46):
While that's the other thing you gotta take away noticeable that.

Speaker 2 (43:50):
They change the rules now to make it more difficult
mathematically to get in. How fair is that? Because what
about all the guys who are now in So now,
any of those guys would not have gotten in if
the rules have been like they are now. So, now,
why is one Hall of Fame class more difficult to
get in than other Hall of Fame classes because some

(44:11):
board of directors decided, well, we're gonna tinker with the numbers.
How is that right? Because now, board of directors, maybe
you've got a bunch of Hall of Famers and canton
who never should have gotten in because you didn't have
the right formula. How is that fair?

Speaker 3 (44:26):
Well, that's why you got to look at it through
the lens of an error. It's no different than seventeen
games versus sixteen games and your statistics, right, I mean,
I think that's a fair parallel. The whole thing with
say Kwon Barkley and whether or not he would have
gotten in the rushing record even though you know he
would have played an additional game compared Derek Dickers in
So I mean it's similar. From that standpoint, things change,

(44:47):
things evolve. It's not fair to your point, it's not
equal across the board.

Speaker 2 (44:52):
You know. That's why. And I get the Pro Football reference.

Speaker 3 (44:55):
I don't know the ins and outs of the formula
that you were going.

Speaker 2 (44:58):
I simply going there because it's a neutral, ortomatical computation
without our feelings involved, without a doubt.

Speaker 3 (45:04):
But Eli, I guess I'm not surprised that he's ahead
of a number of those Hall of famers because Eli,
once again was in an era where he was throwing
the ball a lot more than Bob Greasy and Len
Dawson and all those other guys. In fairness, so his
style of play enabled him to have it bats as
I like to call it, for his numbers to look
a lot more glowing than if you were a quarterback

(45:26):
that wasn't playing where you were throwing the ball forty
five times a game.

Speaker 2 (45:30):
Once again, though, so that's where the postseason stuff comes
into play. The Super Bowls, the Super Bowl MVPs, the
durability where he proved to every coach that he ever had,
you know that I can be here for you every
single week. Those are things that have nothing to do
with Era. No, and I those have to do with
being the guy when you were supposed to be the guy.

Speaker 3 (45:53):
Durability, I always feel is a huge, huge advantage for
Eli Manning and it should not be this missed. I
just I think also a number of people would say,
and I'm in line with this, thinking that as good
as some of those postseason runs were, when you're talking
about a Hall of Famer you're looking at a Hall
of Fame career, Paul, You're not looking at a Hall

(46:14):
of fame two seasons on an island. And I would
say that for any player that had a good postseason run,
it's the accumulation of a career. It's not just two
postseason runs on an island.

Speaker 2 (46:27):
Well, that's why Jim plunk It with his two super Bowl.

Speaker 3 (46:30):
And I always bring him up because everybody says, well,
a guy that has two super Bowl rings and an MVP,
he's got one. Well, Plunket would beg to differ, right, Yeah, but.

Speaker 2 (46:39):
His career is not even a crumb compared to Eli Mouley.
Of course.

Speaker 5 (46:43):
No.

Speaker 2 (46:43):
I mean, let me get this straight. Though you believe
Eli is a Hall of Famer.

Speaker 3 (46:46):
I think Eli will eventually get it. I think he
will eventually. I think I think it's going to absolutely deserves.
But when I say will eventually, I think it's going
to take a lot longer than most people think. Paul
problem and that that's what I've been emphasizing it. And
I said that all along, even well before the vote,
because of I think the thought process of the voters,

(47:08):
but also you got to take it to consideration the
other quarterbacks that will be coming down the road on
a yearly basis. Who have we're talking about elite numbers
from a passing proceon in each.

Speaker 2 (47:22):
Of the next three years. It's going to be Breeze,
it's going to be big Ben, and it's going to
be Brady. Okay, well, now we don't need to sit
here and debate. Okay, No, we don't. Although I think
that Ben and Eli, if you waive them, Ben's regular
season exploits higher than Mannings Mannings postseason exploits higher than Ben's. Okay,

(47:47):
I mean, if you want to look at it from
and Ben was not nearly as durable over the course,
system missed many more games to injury than Eli did,
I think though, and had a better supporting cast.

Speaker 3 (48:00):
Well, I mean, listen, for the course of time Ben's
had years two where you know, the Steelers personnel has
been over the.

Speaker 2 (48:06):
Course of time better supporting cast you know.

Speaker 3 (48:10):
Once again, well, especially if you look at the defensive
side of them, no question, and that helps teams. That's
more of a reason why I don't consider the record
and where I would disagree Paul and I know we
want to get to some more callers here. The only
other area that I would disagree in terms of bringing
up who they beat in the postseason is but that's
a team accomplishment. ELI didn't win those games single handly.

(48:31):
Big Ben didn't win those games single handly. So I
don't like bringing up all well, they know.

Speaker 2 (48:35):
But his individual performance in terms of touchdown interception ratio
and the plays that were made that he had to
actually do were exemplary.

Speaker 3 (48:46):
Well, I mean, there's defining moments, without a doubt, and
he created though. But I guess my point is I
wouldn't hold it against the quarterback if he didn't have
those over.

Speaker 2 (48:55):
Yeah, but you have to give credit to the guys
who do. Sure, But that's what the Hall of Fame,
that's what put and that's what pushes ELI over the top.
But there goly of the skeptic.

Speaker 3 (49:03):
Like you and I are going plus here, minus there,
plus here, and everybody else looks at it differently. No,
and then that's how I got you to say, you
believe that he will get in at some point, but
remember live with that. All I'm saying is you're gonna
have to be patient, and I and I think gonna
have to be two.

Speaker 2 (49:19):
They made Harry Carson wait a dozen.

Speaker 3 (49:22):
Years, well be prepared that that could very well happen again.

Speaker 2 (49:25):
It was a nine time pro bowler, four time All Pro,
voted one of the top one hundred players who ever
played the game by NFL films in the league, and
yet they made him wait twelve years to get into
the Hall of Fame. So trust me, I get the
whole being patient with this Hall of Fame committee. Trust me,

(49:45):
I get it.

Speaker 3 (49:46):
Let's head back to the phone lines. We've got Donnie
and Queen's here with us on BBKL. What's happened to Donnie?

Speaker 7 (49:51):
Hey, guys, we's good to hear you back.

Speaker 6 (49:55):
Just a couple of quick things.

Speaker 7 (49:56):
I'm a Hall of fan. I'll get to my road day, Paul.
I love your passion and for Eli. Uh, but there's
I think two things you're missing. Number one, Unfortunately, like
everything else, even the Hall of Fame now has become
a business part for the NFL, so they are strategic
about who they put in and when they need headliners.

(50:17):
So they don't want to put too many guys in.
So like you were talking about first BALLOCHI as well,
they need they need to spread it out. So unfortunately
Eli may be a victim of number one. The error
he played it was probably the best error quarterbacks ever.
And then yes, they're gonna want to probably put him
in as a headliner at some point.

Speaker 2 (50:33):
I tell you what I have heard from people on
the committee secondhand, who have then relayed messages to me
that even they admit, this is not a very headline
grabbing or sexy Hall of Fame class, and they're not
expecting a very good, crowded canton. They really if they were,
if they were into any kind of business uh parts

(50:53):
or business impact of this vote, Eli would have made
this a smashing success. He's in this class. It is
a class.

Speaker 3 (51:04):
It won't be a long speech, so you can look
at it through that. It's a beauty class, not a
high volume class.

Speaker 2 (51:09):
Canton's not going to make a lot of business out
of this.

Speaker 3 (51:11):
But I would argue, I mean, listen, the threshold should
be high, it should be hard to get in. You
shouldn't put in seven guys just because they want to
steal headlines. Should be because the seven guys met the
eighty percent vote.

Speaker 2 (51:22):
I have. Nobody'll tell you I'm voting for Joe Pizarchik
or more.

Speaker 3 (51:26):
And I'm not saying that you said that, but I mean,
I guess my point is, I'm okay. If there's only
four guys that got in, then only four guns.

Speaker 2 (51:31):
But to the caller's point, though, business wise, no, they
didn't do themselves any business favors this this year. They
did not.

Speaker 7 (51:38):
Yeah, Ultimately, Eli's ower Hall of Famer, and that's the
most important thing is every Giant fan knows exactly what
that guy meant to this franchise, and he'll get his
due at some point, you know, looking forward, You know, Paul, you,
I know you've been very heavy on the veteran quarterback
rout and I don't necessarily disagree with you because you know,

(52:00):
even though I'm not a scout, not too high on
the current quarterback class. I did you'd agree, though, there's
nobody out there of the Baker Mayfield Hill that has
a long term stay here. Most likely we're looking at
somebody that's maybe going to get you two maybe three

(52:21):
years if things go really well, just based on the
potential names that are out there. So with that in mind,
hypothetically they make the trade for, you know, a Matthew Stafford,
which is you know, seems to be the smoke out
there right now. And I know you guys can't comment
on names, but to me, at that point, unless you're

(52:42):
absolutely in love with a player on the clock at
number three, you have to be shaping yourself up to
get more picked in the twenty twenty six draft, particularly
that first round. And I know you guys have kind
of spoke about it because theoretically a veteran Kirk Cousins stappen,
they're going to make the team better, and that would

(53:03):
you'd almost be in the same spot in twenty twenty
Sixthy you're probably just on the outside looking in of
where the quarterbacks are going to go in that draft.
So I would just cleused to hear you comment on
your thoughts on that. And second, do you think that
if there was a new regime here, a new GM
and a new head coach, that they would be going
this better than right as well. And I'll hang up

(53:25):
and listen to Donnie.

Speaker 2 (53:26):
Appreciate the phone call real quick. Second part of the question,
it's really impossible to project what the new regime would
think because you'd have to know their personalities, you'd have
to know their tendencies, you'd have to know how they
evaluate players and what they would want to do. So
it's really impossible to project if there were a new
coach and new GM here, how they would feel about

(53:48):
this quarterback situation. To his first point, I've already addressed
this multiple times. I know you haven't been here. I
have made it very clear that if I could get
somebody's number one and number two two picks next year,
specifically the Raiders at six, if one of the two
quarterbacks don't get taken in one and two, I would

(54:08):
try to bake the Raiders into coming up from six
to three and I would trade down to six and
I would try to milk from them. And if I
don't get what I want, I'm not going I want
a number one next year and I want a number two,
and it could be even maybe even a two. No,

(54:29):
I think I really want the two and twenty six.
The point is I want two premium draft picks to
move from three to six, so that provides me protection
because that means I'll have two premium draft choices potentially
in twenty six to use as trade bait if I
need to move up and get a specific player in

(54:51):
that ensuing draft. I've already discussed that plan multiple times
over the last couple of months on this show, so
I've addressed that question. I've now repeated my answer to
you here.

Speaker 3 (55:03):
I still think you have to simultaneously accomplish the feed
of even if you go down the road of trading
for a veteran quarterback like a Stafford for example, we're
talking about a guy that's been in the league for
sixteen years. Okay, you can't bank on a him staying
healthy and b you know, him being an answer beyond
the season. So I don't see them rolling the dice

(55:24):
even if they went that route. And when you're picking
this high again and there's no guarantee, I know you
said if you get multiple picks the following you, you
can package them and move up.

Speaker 2 (55:33):
But if you can get a one or two to
move down three spots. That one and two is going
to be incredibly valuable to help you move up if
you need to in twenty six you're talking about but
remember it, it really was.

Speaker 3 (55:43):
It takes two to tango though there's no guarantee though
that team is willing to swap spot. So what I'm
saying is, you're still Paul. If you go down your road,
you're still banking on the unknown and you don't know
what the game is.

Speaker 2 (55:54):
You don't know you play in three year increment.

Speaker 3 (55:58):
But I think with the third overall pick this year,
I'd say you'll know whether or not you're going to
get a quarterback because you're high enough. Whereas if you
then move it over to the following year, I think
you're just essentially delaying the inevitable. Well, that's why I
don't know if they'd be willing to go that direction.

Speaker 2 (56:17):
If well, I'm not talking about what the Giants would do.
I'm talking about what I would do.

Speaker 3 (56:20):
I know, but I'm well, I mean, based on how
Donnie pose the question, I'm taking the consideration the teams
might I said two.

Speaker 2 (56:26):
Well, that's a big part of the equation to me.
If I can't get the extra draft capital. Travis Hunter
is my guy at number three. It's just that simple,
you know. Again, assuming that quarterbacks go one and two
and he's on the board, Travis Hunter, I'm running the
card up unless I get ultimate value in moving down

(56:47):
a couple spots, like I said, because it allows me
to hedge for twenty twenty six with extra draft capital
in my pocket. But if I'm taking a player, Travis
Hunter is my guy three.

Speaker 3 (56:57):
I've said, Hunter, I think outside of the quarterbacks, justifies
that because of his versatility and his two ways. I
think one of the things I just want to bring
up before we close up shop here is not to
say that enough teams in the NFL learned from other
team's mistakes. But we've had some recent examples where teams
have gone out and invested a lot of money in
veteran quarterbacks that have a lot of wear and tear,

(57:22):
like the Kirk Cousins situation in Atlanta. So if you
go down the road and then you have to give
up draft capital for a quarterback that's sixteen seventeen years in,
you've got to look at the Aaron Rodgers, the Kirk Cousins,
and you can't just say, oh, well, we're going to
be different because we have the magic potion. The NFL
doesn't work like that. So that's why if you want

(57:43):
to go down that pathway, I'm not saying it's a
bad pathway, but you've got to have then the youth
movement beside that veteran quarterback, so that you can start
the clock for the younger guy, as opposed to just
putting everything in the middle of the table for somebody
that may have the pedigree, but the durability may not

(58:04):
be synonymous with that pedigree, and that means that the
results are not going to come with that as well.

Speaker 2 (58:09):
Again, I think it's important to note for those folks
who who don't appreciate what it is that I've tried
to explain. I have no issue with taking a quarterback
on the second day, and I prefer Jackson Dart myself,
but I have no problem with doing that. That's fine.
But if I got a shot to get Travis Hunter

(58:30):
or load up on draft picks in next year's draft,
I'm much rather doing that than taking a quarterback at
three no.

Speaker 3 (58:36):
And I get that philosophy, but I would say, if
they love a quarterback in the rule they have to.

Speaker 2 (58:42):
They're taking a quarterback at three, No, I get to them,
they're all in, then they should take the quarterback. Yeah,
it's their job to make the right pick. If they're
all in, they are responsible to make that pick. I'm
simply telling you. I'm not that guy. No, I get it.

Speaker 3 (58:58):
I just think I go back to you. When you're
this high, it's a big gamble to push things back
a year, especially if you do not have an answer
at quarterback or a plan in place. And that's what
I think Giants fans need to take it to consideration.
If they were sixth or seventh, I think you and

(59:18):
I are having a much different conversation. But when you're
in the top three, you don't know what's gonna happen
in twenty twenty five. And I'm not saying that the
Giants are gonna win eleven games to get to the
Promised Land. But even if they win a few more
games or whatever, it may be, all right, Well, they're
not gonna be in the top three. Okay, so you're
not gonna be in an advantageous They keep.

Speaker 2 (59:40):
Adding layers to this. But as I told John the
other day, going into the draft, now if this draft.
If Josh Allens was in this draft, I would take
Josh Allen. If Justin Harbert were in this draft, I
would take Justin Harbert. Sure, okay, if Andrew Luck were
in the draft, the real Andreel Luck, Yeah, but they're not. Okay.

(01:00:01):
That's why I feel as I do. I want to
make it very clear. This is not I'm not fighting
back in your philosophy. I understand quarterback at three. Sure,
it's also about this particular group. Yep, it's it's all
in context. You have to take this all in context.
You know, I was praying for them to get Justin

(01:00:23):
Herbert when when we thought he was coming out the
year before, and it was like, oh man, he would
be the perfect guy to succeed Elive for as the
next franchise guy. But then he decided to stay in
an extra year. You know, they thought he was going
to come out. No, oh he's not coming out. He
see's got one more year. He's staying all acts.

Speaker 3 (01:00:45):
Sorry, well, but see, that's why you can't think about
what could happen in twenty twenty six and twenty seven.
You've got to attack it right now because.

Speaker 2 (01:00:56):
You just know what's gonna have there's somebody worthy of
attack before.

Speaker 3 (01:01:00):
Viction always has to be there. I just feel that
if your top three and you have a shot at
one of the top two quarterbacks, there's probably going to
be enough conviction in the room to tilt in that direction.
That that's just how I think things could likely play.

Speaker 2 (01:01:16):
By the way, folks, just for a future conversation on this,
did you see the report that arch Manning is getting.
I believe the report was six million dollars in an
NIL deal with Red Bull for the upcoming season.

Speaker 3 (01:01:31):
Welcome to today's Castle answer.

Speaker 2 (01:01:33):
So let me ask you a question. If that's only
the beginning of his NIL waterfall, and there's going to
be plenty more, don't think that that's the first one
he's getting. Okay. Can you imagine why would any quarterback
come out a year earlier when the NIL money is
probably going to dwarf any rookie contract he could possibly

(01:01:55):
get from the NFL.

Speaker 3 (01:01:57):
Think about that well, and you could talk about this
through the lens of other players too. Cutivating that as well.

Speaker 2 (01:02:01):
Especially the quarterback's been a game change because we're overpaying
quarterbacks in the NFL. I know you don't like that,
but that's how I feel We're going to start overpaying
nil quarterbacks in college very soon. Just just watch.

Speaker 3 (01:02:13):
Well, why do you think bon Nicks spent five years
in school? Because as you transfer, you make money. And
you know what, I would argue, just real quick, that
may not actually be bad for the NFL and maybe
bed if you're picking high, because you have more years
to evaluate.

Speaker 2 (01:02:26):
So like that I do, Okay, I just want to
make sure. Oh, if I'm in the NFL teams, I
love it. Keep those guys in school, let them grow,
let them mature, let them gain experience, let them develop.
Maybe then it won't be as important to get them
a red shirt year when you draft them.

Speaker 3 (01:02:42):
It could be a blessing in disguise.

Speaker 2 (01:02:43):
Absolutely, you know I was. I was a Bonnis guy
all the way.

Speaker 3 (01:02:46):
Absolutely, even a guy like cam Ward and Shador Sanders
who have had multiple years of college experience.

Speaker 2 (01:02:52):
All right.

Speaker 3 (01:02:52):
That is going to wrap up Thursday's edition a Big
Blue Kickoff Live. Appreciate everybody for tuning in. We'll be
back up and running again for Friday's edition of BBKL.
Today's episode. It's part of the Giants Platforms Everywhere, a
Giants dot com slash podcast for Paul Latino on Lance Meadow.
Stay locked to giants dot com for all the latest,
and we'll speak to you on Friday right here on

(01:03:12):
Big Blue Kickoff Live.

Speaker 2 (01:03:13):
Have a good one.