Big Blue Kickoff Live 5/29 | NFC East Offseasons

Lance Medow and Paul Dottino discuss the superlatives of each NFC East team’s offseason, talk about this week's press conferences, and take calls from fans.

:00 - Presser takeaways

16:00 - Giants offseason

28:00 - NFC East offseason

46:45 - Calls

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Episode Transcript

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Let's go on, Hell Dogs, Welcome to Thursdays. This should
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(00:45):
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(01:07):
Zach Murdy in Health Keep Getting Better. So Paul and
I are going to delve into a variety of topics.
That's a very interesting article right now up on ESPN
dot com that gave an overview of what the four
NFC East teams did this offseason with respect to philosophy.
So Paul and I want to take a deep dive
into that. But off the top I know Matt and

(01:27):
John on Yesterdays show talked a little bit about their
takeaways from OTAs Paul and I obviously we're not on
the program, so we want to take a little bit
of time to delve into that. And there were a
few media sessions Paul in terms of some of the
players speaking. In addition to Brian Dable, Jamon Hanland spoke,
we had Bobby o'caraka as well as Greg van Roadin.
One of the interesting things that o'kara kay brought up

(01:48):
that caught my attention was he was asked about, even
for a veteran, how meaningful it is to be in
the same defense for the second straight season because the
reason I entertained that we talked so much about how
difficult it is for rookies to transition, and you know,
they have to adapt to the NFL, learn a new scheme,
but I don't think more often than not we actually

(02:10):
take in the consideration when you have a veteran that
is jumping from one scheme to another, it's not necessarily
an easy task for them. And he even reflected on
when he was with the Colts his first three years,
and I looked this up to confirm Matt Eberflus was
his defensive coordinator, then Gus Bradley took over, then he
came to the Giants, and then obviously you had a

(02:31):
new defensive coordinator in his second year. So this is
the first time since three straight years with Eberflus that
he's coming back into the same defensive mechanism.

Speaker 2 (02:40):
Well, on top of that, when he was with the Colts,
he played some inside backer and he also played some
outside backer, so he had been versatile, yes, but also
playing different positions that require different approaches, different aspects of
the playbook. So Bobby Okarake has died just an awful

(03:01):
lot during his NFL career, and I think, quite frankly,
I think I've gotten to know him pretty well since
he's been here. I think his pride took a shot
last year. I don't think he was particularly happy that,
you know, the production was not what he expected it
to be, because the year before you could make a
very strong case that he played at a Pro Bowl

(03:23):
type level, and then last season it just it just
wasn't there. Now, yes, there could be a lot of
reasons for that, the point is, I don't think he
was happy with the results, and he intends on doing
something about it.

Speaker 5 (03:37):
And of course he was limited to twelve games. He
clarified that it was a disc injury that he was
dealing with in his next which attail correct. But that's
part of the reason why the numbers themselves weren't as
attractive and didn't jump off the page in comparison to
the previous year where he played all seventeen games. So
that's understandable. But he's hoping that the full health, combined

(04:01):
with the familiarity with the defense, should perhaps get him
back to the level, in addition to, of course the
depth that he's working with in front of him, Because
you know, Even Javon Holland touched on this a little
bit because he was asked whether or not he wore
the green dot helmet when he was at the Dolphins.
He said, I didn't want any part of that. Let
the guys got closer to the line of scrimmage have

(04:24):
to deal with that. And obviously it was a little
bit of a tongue in cheek, but I got me
thinking about Holland saying that, you know, he's more than
comfortable moving around in the defense, and that's another reason
why he didn't want to wear the helmet, because he's
got enough that he has to take care of on
the back end. But a good sign of a defense
is when you're not leaving it to your safeties to

(04:46):
clean up everything from a tackling standpoint.

Speaker 2 (04:48):
Well, you know what's kind of interesting about that, And
I tended to feel the way you do, Lance, but
then I kind of learned over the years that some
defenses are actually schemed to have have a safety lead
the team in tackling. You guys will remember Jabrill Wilson,
but he played for the Giants, and you know they
beat the Pats in the two thousand and seven Super

(05:10):
Bowl season. Jabrill Wilson was the leading tackler. So I
get the traditional philosophy that if your safety is leading
the defense and tackles, the traditional philosophy is that's probably
not a good thing. You probably don't want that to
be the case. But over the course of the last

(05:31):
ten to fifteen years, that's actually happened rather frequently with
contending teams and championship teams. And it's because in many ways,
they'll use one of their safeties as a guy who's
going to come downhill, he's going to come down into
the box. He's going to come down on the blitz.
He's going to come down and fill gaps. You know,

(05:51):
a lot of these standard free safety, strong safety positions
that we used to know years ago are not the
case anymore. Now. Teams play left safety, right safety, box safety,
you know, Nickel safety'll.

Speaker 5 (06:07):
Throw them all around.

Speaker 2 (06:07):
You know, it's just they've taken the Rubik's cube and
they've jumbled it and so the colors don't all match
on every side the way they used to. So in
some ways, and I look, I've had to learn this
doing this for forty three seasons now, you know, there
were some adjustments in the way the game was played
and how the positions had to be redefined.

Speaker 5 (06:28):
And I think you bring up a good point in
terms of usage in a defense where if the safety
is going to play relatively close to the line of scrimmage,
then it's understandable his tackle numbers are going to be
much higher than a safety that is playing far back
to be that safety valve. Now, if you look at
Holland's numbers, I just brought them up. He fluctuated total tackles.

(06:49):
His high was ninety six. That was twenty twenty two. Now,
keep in mind he only played twelve games in twenty
twenty three, but that was actually still one of his
better seasons despite that. So probably if he would have
played another five games, he could have flirted with one
hundred that year because he had seventy four through twelve,
and then the other two seasons he was in the
low to high sixties. So Holland's numbers, it just speaks

(07:13):
volumes right about his versatility. They've been all over the
place from season to season between twenty twenty one and
twenty twenty four. And it comes down to it depends
on how Shane Bowen in visions utilizing his services this season.

Speaker 2 (07:27):
Well, to give you an example, right, look at Troy
Palomolo for the Steelers, who we all know is very
versatile and was able to use a number of different
roles to his advantage with the Steelers, right, I mean,
quarterbacks used to talk all the time. We got to
worry about where he is, yep, because you couldn't necessarily
gain clues to what they were going to do on

(07:48):
the play by where Palomolo was because they also used
him as a bluff. Okay, I just looked up his
numbers three different times. In his career, he had over
ninety tackles. Okay, and your safety has ninety tackles, one
hundred tackles, one hundred and ten tackles. That's a ton
of tackles. And there are many times on specific teams
where that may be one, two or three on the

(08:11):
tackle chart. But okay, let's face it, there are times
that those defenses, for whatever the reason, they thought, they
wanted to scheme it that way and it turned out
to be effective and it worked. So you know, the
Giants quite frankly, they prefer playing the left and right safety.
They're not much for free safety, strong safety. They like

(08:33):
to go left and right, which means at any given time,
those guys are floatable. And that's just the way a
lot of teams teem to go nowadays.

Speaker 5 (08:42):
You got me thinking, and it also reminds me of
conversations we had with Steves Pagnolo when he was here.
Remember it was strong safety, free safety, but he would
always refer to it as a left in a right,
as opposed to a strong and a free He used.

Speaker 2 (08:55):
To the interesting part about that was, you know, Jabil
Wilson was typically a free safe safety and James Butler,
who was from free agent from Georgia Tech, who wound
up being the strong safety on that first Super Bowl
team against the Pats. He did it was amazing because
Spags did consider them free and strong. But because of

(09:17):
Jabro Wilson's quickness and his speed and his ability to
play straight ahead and downhill, he often used him as
a gap filler or as a blitzer. He would come
on the safety blitz. They would never send Butler. Usually
on a safety blitz, it would be Wilson, Well, what
does that mean? It means you're strong safety. It's the
guy deep. So that's why he used to refer to

(09:38):
those guys sometimes as left and right, although typically they
were really free and strong.

Speaker 5 (09:43):
But because of their usage and how sometimes they were interchangeable,
why classify them into strong and free when you see
them lined up on the field and you're like, well,
wait a minute, that's not usually what a strong safety does,
or that's not usually sure what a free safety does.
Out of curiosity, I was just taking a glance at
Tennessee's defenses with Shane Bowen in terms of who was

(10:05):
up there in tactics, Kevin Byerd was heavily involved. And
the reason I'm bringing that up is, as we're talking
about this subject so safety, he was in that position, correct,
So it goes back to what you were insinuating earlier.
Sometimes this scheme calls for the safety to be so
heavily involved that maybe that's not necessarily an indication that

(10:25):
you're leaving him out to dry and cleaning up everything.
But you called for him to be in a position
to make a higher volume of tackles. And something tells
me they're going to put Holland in a position to
get plays as opposed to just stay back and thinks everything.

Speaker 2 (10:41):
So I think so too, Although I will say Tyler
Newman looks like he's the kind of guy who can
do that too.

Speaker 5 (10:46):
No, certainly, and you shouldn't dismiss that as well. That's
why you could argue he's got two guys that could
be very aggressive. That was the premis and.

Speaker 2 (10:55):
Them going after Holland in free agency. They wanted to
have the ability to the Skies in a pre snap
situation which safety was going to be the identifier for
what scheme they were going to run on that play.

Speaker 5 (11:09):
Now, just to be fair and balanced here. Twenty twenty three,
Bowen's last season, he had a pair of linebackers one
and two on the team in tackles, but Kevin byered
when he was heavily involved in that defense. They utilized
him a lot. And to further add context, twenty twenty three,
Byard only played four games, So if Bayard played a

(11:30):
fully healthy season, something tells me maybe the two linebackers
are not in the front of the pack. Just an
interesting trend to take away from how Bowen utilized personnel
and what he called upon.

Speaker 2 (11:41):
Can we go back to Kiak for a minute. Yeah, absolutely,
The Giants have really opened up their versatility along the
defensive front. The additions of Robertson, Harris Ledbetter, Golston, Alexander.
I mean mean three free agents and a draft choice,

(12:03):
a third round draft choice adding to that defensive line.
This allows the Giants much more versatility, whether they're playing
a three to four or whether they're playing four down
on a given play. They now have the ability to
do that lance. I've said this so many times last year,
if they wanted to go four defensive linemen down, they

(12:24):
couldn't do it. They didn't have the personnel to do it.
Now they've got the personnel to do it. They've got
guys like Golston who could play three technique or defensive
end if you want him to. Yep, Alexander is probably
in the same boat physically. I think he's got the
tools that he can do both. They're looking at him
right now as three technique, but I think he could
play defensive end in a four down set. I absolutely

(12:46):
believe that. So by adding four defensive linemen during this offseason,
that now allows a more versatile playbook for the defensive coordinator,
which in turn can also help open things up while
the traffic gets caught up in the trenches. For Bobby Okarake,

(13:08):
who has always been more of a free flow linebacker
than a guy like Harry Carson who was going to
get in there and and take on a blocker and
a tackler at once. Oh, Karake is more of a
free flow guy, as they say, run a chasing hit
or running hit linebacker. He's more of one of those
instead of your your typical, you know, Harry Carson type,

(13:29):
which there aren't very many of those anything. Yeah, the
game has changed. So I think you'll see a variety
of different fronts this year that you could never even
thought about last year because they didn't have the personnel
on the defensive line. That to me, right there and there,

(13:51):
it's just the beginning of what can make Bobbyokarake more
effective because of what they can do in front of him.

Speaker 5 (13:57):
Well, and that's why when we talk about run defense,
it's starts with the defensive front. Okay, if those guys
are getting pushed to the sides and it's parting like
the red Sea and your linebackers are out of position,
then good luck. And that's what you saw happen last season.

Speaker 2 (14:14):
So for that matter, if the offensive line, the tight end,
the full back, whoever it is, gets through your defensive
line next level. Guess what, they're now making a block
on your second level, and Bobby Ocaarrigate doesn't have room
now to go and make a play because he's got
a three hundred and twenty pound guard in his chest.

Speaker 5 (14:34):
That's why, getting back to your point, it's so important
for the defensive line. The best term that I would
bring up is getting messy this season, meaning disrupting the
offensive line. It's not necessarily getting in the backfield, but
doing enough where those offensive linemen are not pushing forward
so that they can meet the linebacker first contact. And

(14:56):
now it's up to the corners in the safety to
uver and get some wiggle room to make tackles out
in open space.

Speaker 2 (15:03):
Well, coaches use a very simple phrase. They say, we
want to keep the guy clean. The Giants want to
keep o'karake clean, keep bodies off of him so that
he can track the ball.

Speaker 5 (15:15):
Which is why I go back to That's why the
defensive line has to do the dirty, messy absolute Okay,
let them get entangled so that all of a sudden
Okaraky can then read what's coming his way and he
doesn't have a lot of traffic and a lot of
big bodies that he has to deal with, because listen,
it's hard enough to bring the running back down. If
you got to then deal with a blocker on top
of the running back, good luck.

Speaker 2 (15:37):
And I think that, as much as anything, was one
of the reasons why Okaara Ke's production dropped, because I
just don't think they had I guess the word is
they didn't have enough on the defensive line to allow
him to operate as he wanted to.

Speaker 5 (15:54):
So you brought up some of the personnel they brought in.
And that's a great segue to this ESPN article, which
was I think a really interesting read, and it's only
one person's perspective. Of course, it doesn't make anybody right
or wrong, just their overview. This is Bill Barnwell who
just posted this article recently on ESPN dot com, and
I want to read the intro to give you an

(16:16):
idea of what he was discussing throughout this article, because
he ranked and discussed every team at least in the NFC.
From this section of the article, he wrote Maya's graduation season.
So it seems like natural time to hand out superlatives
for each NFL team, hitting the highs and lows of
their offseason hauls. Last week, I handed out superlatives to

(16:36):
the AFC sixteen teams, hitting on everything from the Browns
quarterback additions to the Chiefs approaching unprecedented levels of inexperience
on Patrick Mahomes's blind side. Now it's time to move
to the NFC, which he did a very similar exercise. So, Paul,
let's start with the Giants. His superlative for the Giants
this was a one sentence response, most likely to throw

(16:58):
deep more often, it's a play on if you open
up a yearbook, they write most likely to succeed and
most likely to be the class clown or whatever it is.
So that's what he was playing off of, just for
those of you trying to follow along.

Speaker 2 (17:11):
And I was most talkative.

Speaker 5 (17:12):
That is a stunning development. Is that actually in the yearbook.
I would love to see the page. You've got to
bring that in one day.

Speaker 2 (17:17):
Then it was a landslide victory.

Speaker 5 (17:21):
How fitting do you talk to any of your high
school classmates?

Speaker 2 (17:25):
I got this picked out of my high school library.
I was banned too talkative, Yes, sure, yeah, I was banned. Yeah,
I was banned. I had to go to the town
library to do my assignment.

Speaker 5 (17:37):
So a public library essentially.

Speaker 2 (17:38):
Yes, because the school library.

Speaker 5 (17:40):
You didn't get kicked out of the public library. No,
why would you change your routine? Well, here was the
still a library at the end of it.

Speaker 2 (17:46):
If I had to, if I had to do an
assignment which involved a book or encyclopedias that you had
to use to get the research and met you to
be there price, Well, we didn't have the internet in
those days. Okay, Well you had stone dating yourself, but
go ahead, own tablets. Okay, that's what we had in
those days. And so once I got banned from the
high school library, and I knew, like, well, I'm going

(18:09):
to need books and encyclopedias to do this work. I'm
going to have to go to the town library. And
if I get kicked out of there, where am I
going to go? So I had to be quiet when
I went to the town library. But the high school librarian, oh,
she banned me. She actually kicked me out and banned me.
I don't know if anyone else who had ever been
banned from my high school library.

Speaker 5 (18:30):
Well, I mean you should wear that with pride, that
you may be in a league of your own and
that nobody else has followed, since good price, they didn't
put your photo up on the front door, so that
in case, like the librarian, I had a day off
that her replacement. Oh, she never missed to keep close hands.

Speaker 2 (18:46):
She never missed. She was a workaholic. She never missed.
And so and she would. And the funny part was
one time I stuck in and she caught me. You
should have heard her. She was the one screaming to
get me kicked out.

Speaker 5 (18:59):
Yeah, well she runs a tight ship.

Speaker 2 (19:01):
But who got the last laugh? The most talkative right,
the guy who couldn't keep his mouth shut, who just
you know, was very vocal.

Speaker 5 (19:09):
Yes, turned out.

Speaker 2 (19:11):
I did okay for myself.

Speaker 5 (19:12):
Well, you capitalized on that facet and character.

Speaker 2 (19:15):
And she had a bunch of old, dusty books to
look through.

Speaker 5 (19:19):
Wow, boy, I need to get some shots that poor librarian.
Goodness gracious, still feeling the wrath of Paul Tatino years later. Okay,
as we try to steer the shit back on track
here after giving a little opportunity to Paul to reminisce
about his librarian days, the superlative again was most likely
to throw deep more often this season for the Giants,

(19:41):
and he threw out some numbers, and here's the numbers,
and clearly these are not positives that jump off the page.
They ranked twenty fourth in deep pass rate last season.
The Giants, they were twenty sixth in quarterback rating on
deep throws. And how about this, They have ranked thirtieth
in deep pass rate over the past three seasons. This
is not just outlier from twenty twenty four. This has

(20:02):
been something that's been prevalent over the last three years.
So here comes Russell Wilson. He's thrown thirteen percent of
his passes twenty or more yards down the field over
the past three years. That's the fourth highest rate in football.
Jamis Winston just behind he was sixth. Who's in between them, interestingly,
Josh Allen, who Brian Dabile helped Groom in his early

(20:25):
days in Buffalo. So you read between the lines, you
put all those things together. Nobody's saying though, Remember there's
a difference, Paul. It's similar to what I say about turnovers.
I say turnovers are great, but it's about what you
do with them. Yes, deep throws are great, but it's
about what you do with them. So the conversion the
points correct, the conversion rate, success rate, is the other

(20:47):
half of the battle here.

Speaker 2 (20:48):
Well, you know, I think the thing that really ticks
me off about the Giants and yes, when your offensive
line is suspect, that makes it harder for the quarterback
to sit back there and pick out the deep throws.
I understand that, and that's certainly part of this equation.
Another part of the equation is the quarterback play hasn't
been very good the last couple of years. We know

(21:09):
that things fell apart, the whole Daniel Jones story just crumbled,
and then they were, you know, throwing back up guys
in there every other week, and you just didn't have
a very high level of efficiency. But the other part
to this, and I mentioned this on a show I
did last night. I had the Giants with forty drops

(21:30):
last season, which if you go to any of the
stats services that track this stuff, everybody has a little
bit of a different number because it's all subjective, yep.
But every list that I looked at, forty would have
led the NFL. So my take on this is really simple.
It's not just changing the quarterback. Russell Wilson, Okay, if

(21:53):
they give him a decent amount of time, and we
think this offensive line that they have right now, with
the room and the depth, could do that well. It
doesn't matter how great Russell Wilson is at throwing the
moonball and trying to hit guys forty and fifty yards downfield.
If they don't finish the play, it's incomplete, case closed,

(22:16):
And now you have a golden opportunity that goes by
the waistside. The giants are not good enough to afford
to waste opportunities. So I'm imploring the giant skill position players.
I mean, I had Malik Neighbors for eleven drops last year.
No one is downgrading his ability and his talent, his explosiveness,

(22:39):
everything that he brings to the table. The guy's an
incredible athlete and an incredible player. He caught over a
hundred balls. He also had eleven drops. That's got to stop. Okay,
it's got to stop. You got to cut that in half,
you know, if you really want to be elite in
this league. I know he was named to the Pro Ball.

Speaker 5 (22:59):
He did.

Speaker 2 (23:00):
He was an ultimate and then got elevated. But six
percent is the number. That's the max number on drops
if on six percent of your catches. So if you
catch a hundred balls, and you drop six that's the limit,
all right. Once the number gets over six percent, it's
a big problem. Coaches don't want to see that. Well,

(23:23):
the Giants have had way too many drops over recent years.
So please don't think that Russell Wilson's addition automatically makes
big plays happen. These guys got to complete the play
on the other end of the ball.

Speaker 5 (23:38):
Plus, all the drops that you charted were not necessarily
all on deep throws too. Let's not forget well, I
have you have the breakdown, but I guarantee you all
forty were not deep throws.

Speaker 2 (23:49):
No, no, no, no, no. What I do have? What I
do have I chart whether or not the throw was
the first down. Okay, Now, of course, for down throws
can be short too, But in most cases, first throws
that would convert a first down are usually on the
longer side, not necessarily thirty forty to fifty yarders, but

(24:11):
they're gonna probably be ten yards or more in most cases.
I didn't chart the yardage on all those drops, but
here's what.

Speaker 5 (24:18):
I'll give you.

Speaker 2 (24:18):
And this is very, very disappointing, and this is part
of the reason why the Giants passing game has been
a mess. Okay, of the forty drops that I logged
the Giants for last year, Okay, sixteen of those throws
would be on the sticks and would have been first downs. Okay,
sixteen of the forty it would have been cast out there. Yeah,

(24:42):
and they couldn't hold onto the ball, all right.

Speaker 5 (24:45):
That'll stunt an offense as a result.

Speaker 2 (24:46):
How about this, Fourteen of the drops, fourteen of the
forty were drops on either third or fourth down that
ended a drive. Folks, it's not just about the quarterback.
Please please keep your eyes open and watch for the drops.
You've got to eliminate those things. Otherwise, Wissell Wilson's numbers

(25:10):
and his beautiful passes are not going to result in
the points that you want.

Speaker 5 (25:16):
Well, I think there's a lot of factors that come
into play with respect to the deep ball. As you mentioned,
It's the receivers on the opposite end, it's the offensive line.
It's the quarterback's willingness, Paul to throw the ball down
the field. Let's not forget about that.

Speaker 2 (25:31):
Yeah, Wilson will hold the ball longer because he much
like Eli Manning, and Eli did this in many of
his seasons. He would hold the ball and take the
sack and live for another day instead of taking the
risk of throwing a pick.

Speaker 5 (25:44):
Well, and that's also a risk by holding onto the
football because if you take a sack then it's negative
yardage and now you're facing a shuffer second or third down.
So I mean there's a give and take relationship just
based on that thought process. But the article does talk
about Darry slayed in and Malik neighbors presence should help there.
They did not bring up Jalen Hyatt, but I'll throw

(26:06):
him into the mix because there's a third potential option
that can open things up deep depending on how the
depth chart plays out. And mentions Andrew Thomas returning from injury,
Evan Neil experimenting with guard which Brian Dable talked about
during his press conference yesterday, and then you know clearly
having Germaine Luminor still in the mix at the other
tackle spots, so the continuity factor, and even Greg Van

(26:28):
Rodin brought it up about you know, the guys coming
back and having familiarity playing next to John Michael Schmidz
and so forth and all that, and listen, in fairness, Paul,
I don't want to say just like you said, Russell Wilson,
throwing deep is gonna solve everything because we talked about
continuity in years past, remember, and then all of a sudden,
two three games into the season, somebody goes down and

(26:48):
continuity gets thrown out the window. So it's nice to
talk about, right, it's nice to look at. It doesn't
mean that it's gonna solve all your problem. So it's
cautious optimism. I guess when we talk about a lot
of these topics.

Speaker 2 (27:00):
Well, it's kind of like, you know, spilling the drink
on your laptop computer. All your plans immediately short circle
and go, hey, wire, that's it. Boom doesn't work. Now,
nothing you can do. We spilled it. It's done, and
that's what's happened, you know, in a lot of ways
to the Giants offensive line, you know, for the last
how many years. But I will say this, Jalen Hyatt,

(27:23):
I want to just throw him out there for one
second before you go, I guess you want to go
to Dallas next, but I want to throw this out there.
Jalen Hyatt continues to work his butt off during this
offseason like he has in the past. This is his
third year. It's got to be his breakout year. I
mean when they drafted him in the third round, they
had a certain expectation as to what he was going

(27:45):
to do for this team, specifically with the deep ball.
It's never really come to fruition. He's a good kid,
he works hard, great attitude. The teammates all like him,
and for whatever reason, it's a mystery to me. It
hasn't happened since Russell Wilson and Jameis Winston have gotten

(28:05):
onto this property. They have gone out of their way.
It's been very noticeable. With every single opportunity they have
to talk about they mention him. Both quarterbacks the veterans.

Speaker 5 (28:18):
Specifically mentioned him. Was very high on him even in
his introductory pressor.

Speaker 2 (28:21):
Yes, yeah, and from what we see here at the OTAs,
they're given him a lot of opportunities to catch the
ball and hoping that it will translate into the spark
that makes him a weapon. I'm gonna have my eyes

(28:45):
on him big time during training camp and during the
preseason because if they can unlock Hyatt and again Winston
and Wilson have been very excited in talking about him,
that could be a big deal.

Speaker 5 (28:58):
Well, when Matt Zeytek and I did the show last week.
We talked about what to look for during OTAs and
specifically the player to watch, and Hyatt was first on
my list. Without any hesitation, he caught. That's the guy.

Speaker 2 (29:09):
He'd caught a bunch of passes yesterday, including touchdowns. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (29:12):
Now it's got to translate to when the pads go on. Okay,
running around in T shirts and shorts, as Brian Dable
talks about. By the way, quick side note, I love
the fact that I know he brought this up previously,
but I thought he encompassed the OTA period beautifully by
saying it's a passing camp. That's what this time period is.
It's a passing camp. I mean, let's call it what
it is. That's exactly what they do. Okay, you can't
touch anybody, can't look at anybody the wrong way. You're

(29:34):
basically you're going through the motions and you're throwing passes.
That's it. No, but that's the reality of it. And
I almost wish that we got rid of. You know,
organized team activities is so convoluted and people see that
and it's so fancy and ooh, and that's part of
the modern NFL well, it wasn't like this when I started,
Oh of course. But it also it hasn't been like
that for quite some time, Paul. So it's not as

(29:55):
if this happened yesterday. I okay, just it should be horrified,
I think over and over again, because you know, people
who think that they're going to have massive takeaways from
this time period, I think are living dreams of grandeur.
But getting back to the point, you.

Speaker 2 (30:11):
Mean, counting all the snaps for the quarterbacks doesn't mean
much to you.

Speaker 5 (30:14):
Or the completion percentage. Yeah, don't get me started. Okay,
that's for OTAs. Yeah, can you think of anything more
clown like? Well, how about attendance too, for voluntary periods.
I love that Brian Davil always when he's asked about attendance,
he goes, well, yeah, it's great when guys show up,
even though it's voluntary. I mean, it's like he reminds everybody,
by the way, according to the CBA, it's voluntary.

Speaker 2 (30:35):
But of the fact that he flat out yesterday very
early volunteered that everybody is it. He didn't want They're
not all going to be on the field. Some guys
are nicked up, some guys are sick, but there's one
hundred percent attendance. So he nipped that one in the
boat right away. It's like, Okay, just don't even ask
me that question because it's dumb.

Speaker 5 (30:54):
And he did, by the way, bring up that neighbors
had been dealing with a tow issue but did not
have an off season procedure or anything like that. They're
just being very careful with how much work they want
to give him at this point. So the deep ball,
that's the superlative for the Giants based on this ESPN article. Now,
the other three NFC East teams were brought into the
conversation as well. For Dallas, it was most likely to

(31:18):
look at their old scouting reports. And this was an
interesting point that was brought up because we talk a
lot about philosophies of the NFL building through the draft,
filling voids through free agency. What was noticeable about the
Cowboys this offseason is they're taking chances on former first
round picks and second round picks across the board that

(31:41):
did not pan out with their original teams. But they're
buying into their track record of drafting guys and developing them.
Will now work with guys that are still young have
upside and potential, so Kayer Elam, former Bills corner. They
brought in former Chargers and Titans linebacker Kenneth Murray, and

(32:01):
both of those guys were acquired by the Way via trades.
Then they brought in Solomon Thomas and Dante Fowler. Now
Faler had previously been with the Cowboys. These were a
pair of former top five picks. Payton Turner, who I
was very high on coming out of the draft, another
first rounder with the Saints. These are guys, by the Way,
that have really big length and frames in terms of
getting after the quarterbacks. But the common element is now

(32:23):
I would argue Thomas and Fowler I think have really
done a nice job since they've left their original teams.
But Turner, it's yet to be seen. And you go
back to their original drafted teams. Thomas and Fowler, it
was a lot of growing paints. They brought in Javonte Williams,
who was originally with Denver. He was a relatively high picked.
They acquired George Pickens from the Steelers of Paris. Campbell
who's been with a few teams, who was even with

(32:45):
the Giants here and I thought that was interesting and
Dallas banking on Okay, our scouts pinpointing these guys are
coaching staff that that will help perhaps bring in some production,
unlike maybe what we did in previous years where we
made a big splash or two on a more recognizable
free agent.

Speaker 2 (33:04):
Well without going too deep and spending a ton of
time on the Cowboys. I will simply say this, because
of this salary cap situation and the money they've got
to devote to guys like Lamb and Prescott, and of
course Parsons still doesn't have his new deal yet and
digs in the secondary, they don't have much of a choice.

(33:24):
They've got to go the recycled route. And so I
get it. If you're going to have to fill a
lot of your roster and a whole bunch of your
depth chart slots with recycled players, you might as well
go back to your draft notes and say, hey, if
we got to go to recycled players, let's at least
get guys who were high picks, who we thought high

(33:47):
of when they came out, regardless of whether or not
they've been inconsistent in the pros or been injured in
the pros. If we can get them cheaply. Those recycled
things might just hold enough water to keep us afloat.

Speaker 5 (34:00):
Understand and Joe Shane, by the way, talks a lot
about this. This is why it's not about just the
guys you draft, it's about everybody, because you're gonna go
back to your notes and your own scout team when
free agency comes up. For example, Jamon Holland, I guarantee
you they went back also into their draft f Holland, okay,
and they looked at the pros and cons and got

(34:21):
feedback and said, oh, okay, we were very high on him.
And of course Joe Shane was in Buffalo when Holland
was drafted. Debo too correct. Same thing with paulse and
Dedemo going to the Saints. You go back to your
draft file, and Dallas clearly has adopted that philosophy. Now
Washington the superlative for them, the opposite end of the spectrum.
It was most likely to eat an early dinner and

(34:43):
go to sleep at a sensible time. And the rationale
behind that was they were a veteran leaden team last
season and they decided, well it worked out. Adam Peters,
the general manager for the guys, that he brought in
because the drafts had not been very good when Ron
Rivera was there. So he said, all right, we'll resign
a number of these guys and we'll stay up there

(35:03):
in age, but we'll also not lock ourselves up. There's
a positive to tie up maybe younger free agents. So
you look at the zach Ertzs, the Bobby Wagner's, the
Andrew Wilies. Don't thee follow they had. He now went
over to Dallas. They acquired Deebo, Samuel Senr Okay, he's
twenty nine years old, Laramie Tunzel thirty one. Jonathan Jones

(35:24):
is thirty two. In September, he's gonna replace Benjamin Saint Jews.
Will Harris is twenty nine. He's gonna take the place
of Jeremy Chin, the safety who went to the Raiders.
They lose Jonathan Allen, but they bring in Javon Kinlow,
who's had a few years in the NFL. So the
point is we're gonna stick with the proven vets because
we need a little bit more time to stock up

(35:46):
in the draft. Now that could do wonders like it
did last season. Paul or these guys get banged up
and they can't stay on the field and all of
a sudden it bites you you know where. So they're
also walking that fine line in terms of their philosophy.

Speaker 2 (36:02):
Well, the two things they have to be most concerned
about is Number One, they're now the targeted and there's
a little difference on the football field every Sunday when
you're the targeted instead of the team that's trying to
climb up. I think Washington caught a lot of people
by surprise last year. Absolutely their quarterback. Heck, we saw
what happened with CJ. Stroud, right, he took a step back.

(36:25):
Most guys will take a step back in year two.
They're not going to get Jayden Daniels, you know, drinking
the magical mystery potion to win a whole bunch of
games with miraculous plays like they did last year. That's
not going to happen. Coordinators now have a year of
film on him and they will not get caught off
guard by a lot of stuff that was done. A

(36:47):
lot of it was just pure athleticism. Well guess what
they know now, So they will be adjustments made by
the rest of the league to him. In addition to that,
you mentioned the older guys. Well, when when you're the targeted,
the season does tend to beat you up a little
bit more than when you're trying to climb the mountain.

(37:08):
And how will these older, wearier bones kind of withstand
that kind of pressure and that kind of heat as
these young guns around the league are trying to come
after them. It'll be interesting.

Speaker 5 (37:19):
Well, and that's why I think the ideal formula. And
remember Adam Peters now has another draft class that he's
bringing in it fairness, Okay, so I think that will help.
But you also look at a few players last season,
like a Luke McCaffrey, he didn't play much. Are they
gonna give him more to try to? Because I think
if you're Washington, and we've talked a lot about this

(37:40):
with the Giants, how many times, Paul have I brought
up to you, it's not about this year's draft class,
it's about the previous draft class. It's gotta be a
growing process and you're adding layers and layers to the roster.
So if you're Washington, there's nothing wrong about bringing the
veterans back, but simultaneously you now have to bring those
younger guys along that were in Jaden Daniels draft class

(38:02):
and now this group, and if that happened successfully, that
then could limit and bring down the level of risk
that they're relying on with their vets. Now the Eagles
a team that also has relied on a lot of vets.
The superlative for Philly most likely to inspire jealousy in
other teams. And the bulk of the write up was

(38:26):
just what Howie Roseman is doing in terms of getting
ahead of contracts. He does not wait till the last second.
He locks guys up. He has done that with his
offensive linemen. He has done that with his wide receivers.
He did that with Saquon Barkley. Now the article also
brought up but on the defensive side, it's a youth movement.

(38:48):
They did not lock up the guys on defense. I
mean outside of Zach Bonn, who had, by the way,
a stellar season least year. That was an excellent signing
for Philadelphia. You got to give credit where credit is due.
It's a bunch of younger players around him. Not to
say that there's not other vets, but if you look
at just the makeup, because they parted ways with Darius Lay,
they parted ways with Josh Sweat, no Brandon Graham, no CJ.

(39:10):
Gardner Johnson. So that's a lot of experience that they lost.
So as a result, you don't have a lot of
spending money. You're going to have to once again rely
on what you brought in to the mix in the
draft over the last few years. And Joe Burrow was
even quoted this offseason saying he wants Cincinnati to model
with Philadelphia. Well, they locked up their pair of wide receivers,

(39:32):
so perhaps they're looking at things. I want to read
out a number here which is very interesting. According to
ESPN dot com, Roseman is set to spend a whopping
two hundred and seventeen point three million dollars on the
offensive side of the ball in twenty twenty five. That
is thirty million dollars pall more than any other team,
with the Chiefs in second at one hundred and eighty

(39:53):
seven point two million. That's a pretty noticeable disparity. Now,
they won the Super Bowl this year with seventeenth being
their ranking in cash spending on that side of the vault,
which also I thought was a very interesting number. You
gotta get once again, the Eagles credit for even the

(40:15):
imbalance that they present and they still find a way.

Speaker 2 (40:19):
Their front office has done a sensational job. There's no
other way to cut this. The last few years, they
have really found the right mixture of veterans, of young guys,
of good draft picks, of economically efficient players. I was

(40:39):
looking at their depth chart. Okay, opening Day twenty twenty five,
it's going to be hard to find somebody who was
imported during this offseason to crack their starting lineup, either
on offense or defense.

Speaker 5 (40:57):
Now are you talking about a free agent and draft
picks in the combination of both. Well, I'm bringing up
their depth chart right now.

Speaker 2 (41:03):
There may be one or two guys who cracked the
starting lineup Week one. Otherwise it's all guys who came
from inside the Eagle system or guys that they had
acquired previously.

Speaker 5 (41:14):
Bite the Kobe d right, But who's been in the system.

Speaker 2 (41:17):
He's been in the series. But can you right now,
if I said to you, put a gold bar down
on the table and say, okay, let's say three, can
you see three possible starters Week one that were off
season imports this year? I don't see. I don't see three.

Speaker 5 (41:34):
Well, I'll tell you right now, the offense. The offense
is back from last season essentially.

Speaker 2 (41:41):
I'm sorry at Washington, I'm sorry. I mean, let me
correct that.

Speaker 5 (41:45):
But yeah, so you're not going to find it on offense.
I do like the addition in fairness, I do like
the addition of AJ Dillon, but Barkley is their starter.
He'll probably get some playing time, but it's not going
to be enough to justify what you're talking about. Let
me take a glance at the defense here, just to
see some of the new names. If anybody jumps off
the page, I mean, I'm seeing a lot of guys
that were previously drafted that are gonna get more playing time.

(42:07):
To your point, but as far as new imports, yeah,
that's the key word correct inut import. I will say
that here's the one guy, the one guy I'm very
anxious to see and I could see him is a
z'so Jali. I could see o Jali tapping in assuming
he stays healthy, Paul, that would be my answer now
that I'm looking at the defensive side of the ball. No,

(42:29):
you don't think that.

Speaker 2 (42:30):
I like him a lot as a player, always liked him. Here, sure,
the durability factor just can't rely on him.

Speaker 5 (42:38):
But look at it from a terrorist guy and how
they rotate personnel he's got and keep him fresh. That's
a very intriguing fit. Oh it could be, So that
would be my response. Okay, all right, but again, he'd
be a rotation. He wouldn't be a stroke. Would but
all of those guys, the numbers could bounce out though.

Speaker 2 (42:54):
But you see how hard you have a lockout.

Speaker 5 (42:56):
Without a doubt. Yeah, but that goes back to this
is the way you want to build your franchise. You
lose absolutely free agents, but you have drafted guys in
the previous two years that you've molded and they're ready
to step in. And oh, by the way, they're not
stressing out your salary cap, so you can afford to
utilize resources on the offensive side of the ball. That's

(43:18):
why Philadelphia is not cheating the game. They're not finding
something with the push push.

Speaker 2 (43:23):
That's the only cheating.

Speaker 5 (43:24):
Okay, well, I'm not gonna get into that with you.
We talked about that last time. But I'm looking at
it through a salary cap system. They are playing the
game like everybody else, but Roseman has decided I want
to put a lot of the heavy resources on the
offensive side of the ball. I want a draft on defense.
I'm gonna part ways with the proven commodities. We're not

(43:44):
gonna pay the pass rushers an exorbitant amount of money,
and then we're gonna bring in little by little linebackers,
secondary players through the draft and they're going to be
productive guys. And even if you look at some of
their drafted players on the defensive side, all Sydney Brown,
we've seen him showing some flashes read blanket shit help
them win the Super Bowl. I mean he played an

(44:06):
integral role. Quinnon Mitchell, who was a first round pick
last year, Cooper at the nickelbacks last corner and safety position.
I mean, I just read you their entire secondary Paul.
They were drafted in the last three years, all of
these guys.

Speaker 2 (44:20):
They are an outstanding organization. The Chiefs are an outstanding organization.
The Steelers are an outstanding organization. These are teams that
understand the philosophies that you need to build the team
the right way, to give yourself an opportunity despite free
agency in the salary cap, which does everything it can

(44:42):
to shred your rostered or ribbons and prevent you from
being a dominant team or a contending team over the
course of a handful of years. No, somehow Kansas City, Philadelphia,
and Pittsburgh have figured out ways to avoid that. And
it's all about being internally really, is what it comes
down to make the right personnel selections so you can

(45:05):
be internally strong and don't have to constantly import guys
from the outside.

Speaker 5 (45:11):
The draft does wonders for teams, and I think it
also says a lot about the coaching staff. You're taking
the time to develop the guys, especially when they don't play,
and having the willingness to sprinkle them in in the
years before they become starters, Paul, because it can't be
baptism by fire. You've got to expose them a little bit,

(45:31):
because I think the front office you have to be
confident that if I'm gonna move on from an established
secondary player, linebacker, a pass rusher, it's not so much
the game of the unknown. You've got to have a
little bit of substance on the page to say, what
did you see in the film room when you talk
to the guy, how well does he know the ex's

(45:52):
and o's, What have you've seen in the practice field
that if we all of a sudden exponentially improve his
snap count that we're not going to be hanging on
by a thin threat.

Speaker 2 (46:02):
Well, part of that is the whole chicken and the
egg thing. You can afford to do that when your
team is in the mix, and do we Well, if
your team isn't very good and you're struggling just to
be a five hundred team or to be competitive, you
know you're not gonna take a chance and start feeding
those guys because it's like, well, we're trying to just
win games here, all right, Well we'll just try to

(46:23):
be decent.

Speaker 5 (46:23):
And coaches keeping their jobs and so forth.

Speaker 2 (46:26):
It. You know, that's why everything about the NFL I
go back to it, folks.

Speaker 5 (46:30):
It's a spider web BINGO. We met our quota. That's one.
It's just on today's show. There we go. I'm not
going to disagree with you. I think that is the
one turf I've adopted, and I think there's some serious
backing with respect to that. This is Thursdays. They should
a Big Blue Kickoff live. It's presented by Cadillac, the
official luxury vehicle of the New York Football Giants. As
we are in the Giants podcast Studio presented by Hackett

(46:50):
Zach Meridian Health. Keep getting Better. Let's open up the
phone lines. As we move forward here to the finish line,
we check in with coach Marvin in Delaware. Coach Marvin,
Welcome board, What do you got for us doing?

Speaker 3 (47:03):
Paul Hey, coach, Welcome back, Lance. I've been talked to you.

Speaker 5 (47:07):
Yeah, it's been a long time to speak.

Speaker 6 (47:12):
Yeah, it's good to have you back.

Speaker 3 (47:13):
I do still follow you on Instagram, so I saw
you a couple of times, hosted something a couple of times,
so still see it. You guys were talking about organizations.
You forgot one, the Baltimore Ravens. Yes, one of those
in fairness, yes, yes, yes, yes, So those those teams

(47:33):
have really good organizations, and I think I have to
put Baltimore on Eagles close to each other.

Speaker 6 (47:41):
They operate their.

Speaker 3 (47:43):
Systems and who they draft and who they bring in
as creations.

Speaker 6 (47:48):
What I was going to talk about is I want.

Speaker 3 (47:50):
To ask you guys a question is about the defense
and Shane Bowen and his system. I mean, I used
to put all coaches, no matter.

Speaker 6 (47:59):
Who, with this.

Speaker 3 (48:00):
I'm not gonna say anything's wrong with what they're doing.
I like to see them be a little more aggressive,
and this year seemed like they're gonna have to be
a little more creative because of the talent they have
in the secondary and on that in that front line.
I like to see them get a little more creative.
But Bobby Korak didn't have a good season and Deontay

(48:25):
Banks didn't have a good season, and I'm wondering was
some of that with the system because they didn't they
didn't do that under the last coordinator, under Winindell. So
I'm wondering if do y'all think you had anything to
do with.

Speaker 6 (48:41):
The schemes that they had to learn last year.

Speaker 5 (48:45):
Well, I think it's a combination of multiple factors. I
don't think it's one area specifically that you could pinpoint
to say this is why this guy struggled. I think
if you ask most of the players and oh Kaak,
I think did a nice job really being upfront and
he spoke to the media yesterday where clearly he was
not one hundred percent healthy. That was number one. Number two,

(49:07):
you had to get down and dirty up front to
try to help with the run defense, which struggled mightily.
So there wasn't a lot of free space, and then
he had not been in the same defense himself. I mean,
even Polish veterans have adjustments. I remember he had to
make the transition from wink Martin Dale to Shane Bowen.
No different than Deontay Banks. The only difference is, Ohkara

(49:28):
Kay has been exposed to multiple defenses on the NFL level,
so you figure, okay, maybe that gives him a little
bit more leeway Banks. And I'm not making excuses for Banks,
but Banks was a first round pick in twenty three,
so I mean he's still getting his feet when in
the NFL. Twenty four was year two and already he's
learning a new defense. And I say this about quarterbacks
all the time. You draft a quarterback. One year, he

(49:51):
learns an offense, you get rid of the coach. Year two,
now he has to learn a new offense. And oh,
by the way, he's still adapting to life in the NFL.
If it's very hard on a quarterback, I mean, what
makes you think it's going to be that much easier
on another position. So I just named you a few factors,
and it's not to meander around the question. I think
deep down inside they would tell you themselves it's not

(50:11):
just one item.

Speaker 2 (50:12):
You know what's interesting, coach, Last year, the Giants were
ninth in blitz percentage at twenty eight percent, and we
came into the season saying that Shane Bowen really doesn't
want to do that very much. Well, obviously he was
well under the forty plus percent that Wig Martindale used
the year before, but ninth in the NFL at twenty

(50:33):
eight percent blitz percentage is a lot more than I
think any of us thought that Shane Bowen was going
to do. Now, having said that, what I don't think
he did very much of was played press coverage. He
did not have his corners doing a lot of jamming
at the line of scrimmage. And when you say you'd

(50:53):
like to see him be more aggressive, that's an area
where I would love to see them pick up the stats.
I would love to see, you know, allowing Tape Banks
to do what he does best, and that is press
coverage and beating guys up with the line of scrimmage.
A debo is the same way. He can play both.
He can play off man, he can play zone, he

(51:13):
can play you know, he can do it all, but
a debo is best at press. So is Banks. So
when you say more aggressive, coach, I'm going to turn
that a little bit and say more specifically, I'd love
to see more man and press on the outside.

Speaker 3 (51:30):
And I can agree with that. I agree with both
of you guys on that. I'd like to see them
impressed because that's what Banks does best, is the press
man rather than zone. So I like to see them
and that doesn't I'm not going to give Banks the
out on this. He's going to have to adjust to that.
To the play calling also, no doubt, but I would

(51:53):
like to see them utilize their players in the manner
that's best for those players, what do they do best?
And you have to somehow incorporate that in your play
calling and then your playbook itself. And you know, because
this year we drafted some guys that are really flexible.
That is, this is a pretty good draft class. I

(52:17):
like the attitudes that they bought in. If you listen
to a dual card of the way he's talked, he
talks in a manner that's going to be aggressive, scatter bull.
He talks in a leadership manner. I'm saying, in a
manner that you gravitate to these guys and Jackson Dark.
I haven't seen it, but from what I'm hearing, he

(52:38):
has the similar personality. And you add these personalities with
somebody like elite Neighbors, this looks like a new group
of leadership that all of a sudden coming into the
Giants now, which may change the dynamic.

Speaker 6 (52:54):
Of the locker room. Not to say that Dexter is.

Speaker 3 (52:58):
Not a leader, not to say that By is not
a leader, but they are different types of leaders. They
not really they don't talk in a really upset man.

Speaker 6 (53:09):
I don't know how to.

Speaker 3 (53:10):
Put it where they really really angry.

Speaker 2 (53:13):
But if you listen, well, coach, you should have been
in the locker room after some of those losses last year.
There were guys who had fire coming out of their ears.
Brian Burns, Dexter, Lawrence in particular. They were furious at
some of those losses last season.

Speaker 6 (53:29):
I can understand that.

Speaker 3 (53:30):
But I'm just saying, from what I can see, Neighbors
is a different type of person. Yes he's talking, no.

Speaker 5 (53:36):
Sure, but you're you're also in fairness and we'll let
you go on that. No, Coach, mar I appreciate the phone, Calle.
You're also keep in mind you're judging these players from
press conferences, and I think what Paul was getting at
is you don't see a lot of their personality when
they're out of the public setting, and guys act differently.
When you're one on one with a teammate. You know
you're going to have a more heart to heart conversation.

(53:57):
You're not going to air out your dirty laundry and
your grievances with reporters because that's probably going to come
back to bite you. So just because perhaps let's say, oh,
Kerra Ka and Decks don't get heated when speaking with
the media, does not mean that they're not upset and
they're not giving it to their teammates. But I think
leadership is shown in many different forms. I don't look
at the vocal guy as the only facet of leadership.

(54:21):
There are guys that are quiet and they work hard
on the practice field and they serve as an example.
Other guys follow, and they're willing to run through a
brick wall for a guy because they see his work habits.
So I wouldn't read so much into that from that standpoint,
And just quickly getting back to the point about I
think any defensive coordinator, especially after year one. You want

(54:42):
to get feedback from your players, Okay, and that's I'm
sure critical for Shane Bowen this year. What worked for
you guys? What did you like? What didn't you like?
That's number one? And you know also then try to
learn what you saw out of your play calling. And
you know, maybe I would have probably done this differently

(55:02):
in this circumstance because here's the thing you mentioned. Banks
is great in press coverage. I don't disagree, but there's
gonna be some plays where you don't want him playing
press coverage, right, I mean that's just football one.

Speaker 2 (55:13):
Oh, he's a pro, so it's his responsibility to make
sure he learns exactly.

Speaker 5 (55:18):
So the point is the player has to give in
a little bit absolutely as the defensive coordinator does.

Speaker 2 (55:25):
Is what I get both. Yeah, that's why they call
it a team.

Speaker 5 (55:29):
Yep. I don't know if this guy makes our cut
for the team, but we'll try to fit in. Wilson
in Roxbury here on Big Blue Kickoff Live. What's happening Wilson?

Speaker 4 (55:41):
Listen, Hi Land Pully when crazy when at me last week?
I took it like a man and he told me
my hypothetical is that crazy? And maybe I should take
a little break from calling until until the season started.

Speaker 5 (55:53):
And clearly you didn't follow that advice based on this
phone cos.

Speaker 4 (55:57):
Yes, I'm gonna take you up on it. I'm gonna
take you up. But you know, I made the mistake
of actually listening to the show after I hanged up
and my name was mentioned a lot, and.

Speaker 5 (56:07):
You patted yourself on the back and you told your family.

Speaker 4 (56:10):
Yes, people's buttons the wrong way. I might have that
affecting people, but pullye, I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you something.
And see I'm gonna call Roger Goodell, right and I'm
gonna tell him that the Giants we need like a
third column, you know, because wins and losses, and we
need like rins loss and the loss with an excuse
because according to you last week, you can start four

(56:33):
and O and squeak by every team and be lucky
you wont four games, and you can start all and
four and be in it in every game, and at
the end of the day, it's about the same thing.

Speaker 2 (56:43):
No, No, I would never say that's the same thing.
Be careful, Come on, be careful, be be careful, and
listen to everything that said in its context. I would
never say four and oh is the same as ozh
and four under any circum stances. No, absolutely not.

Speaker 4 (57:02):
Okay, Paully, let me ask you something because I don't
want to, and I guess I'm gona take a little break,
but I want to ask you and land something and
I'm gonna hang up and to me as true for
as you can.

Speaker 6 (57:12):
When when?

Speaker 2 (57:13):
When?

Speaker 4 (57:14):
When is playing hard? Develop playing hard not quit it
on this head coach, you know, improvement, all that stuff
you tell me all the time, when it's not going
to be secondary and when it's actually when and loss
is gonna matter for this head coach, for this organization?
When two years, three years, five years, Just give me

(57:35):
a number, because I don't know. I like I said,
when you three and fourteen, you're three and fourteen, I
don't care if you were in it and every game
you lost fourteen games. But obviously a lot of people
don't think like that. So with all due respect, just
tell me, tell me when it's wins and loss is
gonna matter and think.

Speaker 2 (57:53):
You okay, well, hi Wilson, We'll let you go on
that note, depending upon the circumstances. And I think it's
really hard to imagine that if this team wins three
games again this year. It is hard to imagine that
that's going to be okay. I can't even think, you know,
because realistically, right, let's just talk about logic. If the

(58:16):
Giants play significantly better this year, they should win more
than three games, even with a tough schedule. We've kind
of used this as the number we've kicked around Lance.
I don't know how many times you've done it on
your shows, but we've kind of said they could be
a much better team, and it would not be surprising
if they won six or seven games, which would be
double the win total of last year. I think most

(58:39):
people with a rational train of thought would say, Okay,
that is an arrow pointing in the right direction. That's
reason to stay the course and see if they can
continue that improvement. It's hard to imagine if the team
wins three games again this year, or it wins only
four games this year, it is hard to imagine that

(59:01):
they will show significant improvement and still wind up with
a relatively equal win total as they did in twenty
twenty four. That's hard to imagine. It could happen, but
it's very unlikely.

Speaker 5 (59:15):
Well, Listen, the NFL is defined by parity. We talk
about it all the time. There's competitive balance, however you
want to spin it, it's not as overwhelming in this
league compared to other leagues. To flip the switch within
the span of a year. That doesn't make it easy.
I mean, they were at six wins in twenty twenty three,
they dipped to three in twenty twenty four. They were

(59:37):
nine in twenty twenty two. So if you look at
the last three years, they've dipped three games. Now, that
doesn't mean that they're not gonna win any games this year.
That's not what I'm insinuating. But you're not guaranteed to
move up the ladder. You're not guaranteed to absolutely not
match what you did last season. I mean, clearly there's
new talent, there's a bit of a new philosophy. You

(59:58):
hope that some of the guys are healthy. And to
your point, even though the schedule is difficult, the product
should be a lot better. I mean, just based on
the quarterback situation alone. Okay, if you don't even want
to evaluate anything else, the quarterback should upgrade the offense. Now,
I can't guarantee you that that's going to be synonymous
with x amount of wins. But the other thing that

(01:00:19):
I also would put aside the wins and the losses
here for a second, Paul, that I think the front
off his ownership is going to have to take it
to consideration. Is Jackson Dart here, whether he plays or not,
what is best for him? How do you dismiss that?
You can't make a decision with that on an island.
That has to be a part of the equation. Meaning

(01:00:41):
whatever happens with the relationship between Brian Dable and him
and the offensive staff. Once again, whether he plays one game,
whether he plays no games, whether he plays half a season,
you have to say to yourself, do we like what
is happening behind closed doors? Do we think that that
has the potential to grow? And if that's the answer

(01:01:01):
and the record is not great, well you gotta way
heavily Dart's future. So that is a big part of
the equation. It's much as the standing.

Speaker 2 (01:01:10):
That's the point. It's always context. Wilson never wants to
take anything into context. He just wants to take the
words right off the page and then he reacts. No.
Context is not just important, it's critical. It is powamount.
And I will say this one other closing item about
this scenario. When you look at the Giants, and I've

(01:01:33):
often talked about the first four games that you know,
bare minimum you always want to be bare minimum is
two and two. No matter how a schedule looks, you
always want to say, well, give me two and two
out of the first month, because now we're creating a
thirteen game season where you finally got your sea legs
under you in week five, and you'll take your chances

(01:01:53):
well this year with the first two games on the
road against division fos, the two and two that you
get to if you do better be the right too.
And two. You better not be zero and too against
the NFC East and upset the Chiefs and the Chargers.
To be frank with you, I'd rather have a win

(01:02:15):
against Washington or Dallas than upsetting Kansas City.

Speaker 5 (01:02:18):
Yeah. Well, for tiebreaker and division play. Yeah, it goes
without saying.

Speaker 2 (01:02:21):
You know, all wins are not created equal. Yep, all
losses are not created equal. So if you go to
and two through four, you better make sure you pick
the right too and get at least one of those
games out of the NFC.

Speaker 5 (01:02:33):
East and those games come fast and furious and right
out of the gates. You know, I'm not a huge
fan of that, but it is what it is. Some
years we have some early games in the division. I
think they're better off waiting till teams get a feel
for one another. But the Giants, they're gonna have to
be ready to go for a battle royale immediately because
if you get in an early hole, then all of

(01:02:55):
a sudden, you eliminate your possibility of winning the division
and you're left into the wildcard conversation, which obviously is
a whole different discussion as well. All Right, that is
going to wrap up Thursday's edition a big Blue Kickoff
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(01:03:16):
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(01:03:37):
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