Big Blue Kickoff Live 6/2 | 2023 Draft Class Review

John Schmeelk and Paul Dottino review the entire 2023 draft class, talk about Giants OTAs, and take calls from fans.

:00 - OTA chat

11:05 - 2023 draft review

36:25 - Calls

39:40 - NFL news

48:00 - More on 2023 draft

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
It's time for a big blue kickoff line. Nobody can
ever tell you that you couldn't do it because you're
on Giants dot com. Do you know what I saw
to York Giant Crack and the Giants Mobile as.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Seventeen the final one time down?

Speaker 1 (00:19):
We all we're all tampering. Part of the Giants Podcast Network.
Let's go Dog has a lot. I am John Smulk
joined by Paul Datino. We're taking your calls at two
A one nine three nine four five one three. We
are coming to live from the Hackensack Meridian Health Podcast Studio.
Keep getting better, Paul Tatino, Hello, John. Disappointing weekend, Yes

(00:41):
it was the mixer finished. Hey, they they did it
to themselves. They did the opportunity to win that series.
And the Pacers might not be the more talented team,
but they played like the better basketball team. Well it was,
of course of the series.

Speaker 3 (00:52):
The matchup, as we always say, styles make fights, the
matchup of their ultra fast paced attack really proved to
cause some some turnover issues for the next.

Speaker 1 (01:04):
And I thought they just played cleaner the whole series.
They shot a little better, they protected them ball a
little bit better, and look if the Knicks don't. Even
with all that said, Knicks don't blow Game one the
way they do. I know, we could be talking about
a Game seven at the gun tonight. So it is
what it is. It was a good season. Fun to
see them get to these are conference finals again. It
really was having May and June basketball matter, which is great.

(01:24):
It's been you know, folks that are too young like
the nineties in May and June with the playoffs with
the NBA, it was one of the best times a
year in New York sports. It was fantastic. Sure, it's
good the last couple of years to kind of have
that back, which is great. And we'll see what they
do moving forward here. But the Giants now it's time
for the NFL to kind of slowly step back in

(01:44):
along with baseball in the New York sports scene here. Paul, Yeah,
we got to first place baseball teams. We do about that.
But anyway, not the best weekend series against the Dodgers.

Speaker 3 (01:54):
No, thank goodness. They salvage game for you.

Speaker 1 (01:57):
Correct, I thought on Friday night, I fell asleep. It
was like five one of the fifth inning, and I
woke up and I'm like, what in God's name happened,
I know, anyway we should talk about football. I'm sorry, folks,
No it's my fault. So we're gonna have a fun
show today. We'll do a brief runout of what happened
at today's OTA, and then we're gonna dig a little
bit into the twenty twenty three draft class. We did

(02:20):
this last year when we looked at the twenty twenty
one and twenty twenty two draft class and not just
the Giants. We'll talk about the Giants first and when
what they did in that draft. We're also go to
talk about just lessons that we've learned, go back to
some of the debates that we had, yeah in that draft,
and there's actually some really interesting picks in there, so
we can talk about, you know, do we rethink our

(02:42):
thinking on certain things? Is there anything we have to
rethink when it comes to the draft. When you take
a look at that twenty twenty three NFL draft two
years in, where you can start kind of figuring out,
you know, we have, you know, definitive conclusions on players up,
but you got a pretty good feel for kind of
what it looks like. All right, First ball Oga's today,
First time part of me, they did non red zone

(03:07):
competitive stuff. So last year it was tight red zone
and high red zone so inside the ten, between the
ten and the twenty, and they kind of went back
and forth that way. So this is the first time
they had full field practices where the offense is going
down the field a little bit and we got fun.
It was kind of fun. Second passive practice, I believe right,

(03:28):
Russell Wilson, deep post, Jalen Hyatt leaping catch, high points
the ball comes down with it, really nice catch. And
that was a couple of the big plays for the offense.
But that was only the biggest one.

Speaker 3 (03:38):
That to me was the highlighted player on offense of
the day. And you know, again, I'm sorry but folks,
I don't want to get your hopes up. But this
spring Jalb Hyatt has gotten an awful lot of attention.
The quarterbacks talk about him a lot when they throw
around the ball with practice. He's getting a lot of action.
He was getting a lot of targets.

Speaker 1 (03:59):
It was ah that neighbors scene hasn't been here for
a couple of neighbors and neighbors does not played.

Speaker 3 (04:04):
I understand that helps. No, No, I totally understand but
the good news is how however much you can take
advantage of this very limited scenario, He's done it.

Speaker 1 (04:16):
Yes, I agree with that. And he looks a little
bit bigger in the upper bodom. We talked about that
last week. His legs look a little bigger. So I
didn't notice that I was looking at that. I couldn't
quite well.

Speaker 3 (04:25):
I was down at the end zone when when he
ran into the end zone and I'm like looking at him,
I'm like, you know what.

Speaker 1 (04:30):
He definitely put on some good weight. Did put a
little bit more weight?

Speaker 3 (04:32):
Yeah, I think so that's it, And that'd be the
second year in a row for him to be putting
on some pounds.

Speaker 1 (04:38):
So, but he high point he high.

Speaker 3 (04:40):
Pointed the ball very well over Paulson Adebo who was
back there. But but he climbed the stairs, did high
itt and and went up and got it.

Speaker 1 (04:48):
It was a beautiful play. I mean, like when you know,
when you start at that level you can only gain
hit that. This is true. A couple of other offensive
plays and we had a couple of highlight defensive places
two in this practice. Yes, I thought it was a
great play where Jackson dart rolled to his left looked

(05:08):
like he was about to run, but then stopped and
threw across his But now he set himself. Wasn't like
a fading away across his body throat, No, No, he
stopped reset, which is what he shost his body correct
and he got good juice on the ball. I believe
that was one of the tight ends. Was that that
was eighty four, It was Johnson, And then another earlier
in practice he threw a little high over the middle

(05:30):
on Thomas Faddoni made a really nice plan across. I
thought Dart was pretty sharp in practice today, but good
touch on his passes was pretty accurate, So I thought
he had a pretty good dan offense.

Speaker 3 (05:41):
I would agree with that. And your guy for Dony today,
I watched him a little more closely today because he's
long arms man, he's long. He's long, and you know
what for a guy who's that long and that tall,
he's not gawky.

Speaker 1 (05:56):
He's fluid.

Speaker 3 (05:57):
Yeah, he's absolutely fluid. I'm I'm really starting to like him.
Like he's He's probably a little bit more sudden is
the Ward.

Speaker 1 (06:08):
He's probably a little bit more sudden than THEO Johnson
is THEO Johnsons a little bit thicker. Yes, is a
little bit more sudden than THEO is, though he's not
as thick.

Speaker 3 (06:18):
Ironically, you know, even though he's only a rookie and
he's just coming into the NFL.

Speaker 1 (06:23):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (06:24):
He looks more fluid, for instance, than Bellinger does.

Speaker 1 (06:27):
He's out there in the passing.

Speaker 4 (06:31):
Is.

Speaker 3 (06:31):
I'm intrigued by him now. The more I seek him,
the more I'm intrigued.

Speaker 1 (06:34):
He has a weird way of running though. He kind
of gets his like hand hunched over it kind of
like a dinosaur or like a velc with the way
he runs. But other than that, but he's fluid.

Speaker 3 (06:45):
It doesn't appear to impede his routes at all.

Speaker 1 (06:47):
And you love the tattoos, so I know you're all about.

Speaker 3 (06:52):
I'm wondering, can he actually like hide game plan notes
inside of inside of the arm.

Speaker 1 (06:57):
Keeddy paint the game plan off right, he would notice.
So he had a couple of really nice defensive plays
in practice. Yes, Cordell Flott working. I believe they were
trying to target THEO Johnson on. This was kind of
a double slant on that side of the field. He
kind of got his hot hand in there, popped it
up and it'll be Tyler new when they gets credit

(07:17):
for the pet correct return. But Fordela Flott is the
one that made that made the play. And by the way,
going against and getting around a big body, tight end,
and we've talked about flat size a lot. I thought
that was a very nice play, well, very impro impressive
because and it was clean because there's no contact by
that That's what I was just gonna add.

Speaker 3 (07:35):
He didn't fight his way through Johnson. He actually got
around him correct. And you know, you have to be
in good position to be able to even have a
chance to make that play without going through him, because
if you're not in good position and then you try
to make that play, chances are you gonna draw.

Speaker 1 (07:50):
You're gonna draw a flag. It's gonna it's gonna be
passing free. Oh and by the way, I should mention
Dart also had a really nice play where he play
action and role to his left and had the resquare
his body and he threw a nice little pass down
the field to eighty seven. Who's eighty seven? Smith Moore said?
The smith mar said, who was coming across? Guys? I
hate to tell you everyone's changing their numbers. I don't
know idea. Oh, I know right now, it's a real

(08:12):
big problem. It's brutal. I don't have my roster in
front of me, so thank you for that point. I
checked my roster by four times. No you have to.
I had so many guys that change their numbers. That's
not very difficult. But I thought that was also a
very nice though. Again tough for a right handed quarterback
to roll to his left, and he kind of did
a really nice job. He's a piece an athletic kid.
He kind of get his body around the square shoulders
to make that throat. I liked the first one you

(08:32):
talked about better, but that was a good thing. They
were both good plays. Paulson Adebo had a nice knock
away on a slanted Pascal. That was a nice play.
You would forty six had a couple of sacks in
practice today. I thought he got in there. Brian Burns
got in there. Then you had Abdul Carter on the
same play where we're gonna talk about the other big

(08:53):
trace for trace Ford for thank you, same another number Bride,
I don't know yet. So the same play where Dame
Belton got his pick sex jumping, a play in the flat.

Speaker 3 (09:06):
Which was a really nice defing the role.

Speaker 1 (09:10):
Don't throw late outside, don't throw late outside. He jumped out,
got the sack, but I got the pick. But that
throw probably never would have happened in a real game,
right because number fifty one a duel Carter, Well, he's
got missile in the backfield. Oh, he was in there
with a hurry. He was in there with a hurry.

Speaker 3 (09:27):
But again, I still want to give Belton credit for
the anticipation.

Speaker 1 (09:30):
Of course, last I mentioned that, no.

Speaker 3 (09:31):
Question, no doubt about that. But the thing about Carter,
and like we said, there's no contact, I'm john his
speed and quickness in athleticism is obvious in these drills
when he's going against air. We saw what we saw
at Penn State. I want to see how is he

(09:52):
going to do in terms of shedding, disengaging, using countermoves
when he actually has to contact some bigger, stronger guys
in this league.

Speaker 1 (10:01):
Yeah, so I don't know that yet. You're afraid if
he gets up against this six to seven tackle with
thirty four inch arms that waist during your fifty pounds,
that he might just completely envelop him and not be
able to get off of them. In feary. He's so
slippery and flexible, he can get so low. I think
that's gonna give those bigger tackles some problems.

Speaker 3 (10:18):
This is why he was projected to be a top
three pick in the draft and because we think he's
gonna be fine.

Speaker 1 (10:22):
And by the way, this is also why you can't
judge pass rushers and you get the pads on in
the summer.

Speaker 3 (10:26):
And that's exactly why I'm trying not to get too
excited about any quote potential sacks because in these in
these drills, the potential sacks are like, well would it
have been would it have not have been in a
real game? Well, yes, in timing factor, yes it would
have been a sack. But if he's going up against
the six six, three hundred and forty pounds tackle, maybe
he wouldn't have been there.

Speaker 1 (10:47):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (10:48):
So for me, when those plays happen, and I've always
graded them this way, at this time of the year,
I'm more interested and did the defensive back make the
play on the ball, because in his mind it's all
about what is he doing when that ball's in the air.
He's not so much, you know, involved in the play
in the backfield.

Speaker 1 (11:06):
Yes, absolutely anything else in practice today before we get
to the draft real.

Speaker 3 (11:09):
Quick, no, I think, well, I will say this, the
running backs continue to show good hands.

Speaker 1 (11:17):
Yeah, they caught the ball. Well, they they throw the
Tracy had one slant work out of knocked off his
hands those a little behind him, but it wasn't a
good but.

Speaker 3 (11:25):
But the backs have all shown the ability to catch
the ball.

Speaker 1 (11:27):
Real well, I'm with him, all right, So let's take
a look here at the twenty twenty three draft. Here,
Paul and I have a couple of notes here. Why
don't you start with the with the Giants draft class,
because I think that's probably a good place to start,
uh in terms of talking about what happened, and we
can kind of go there with the Giants first in
twenty twenty three, Deontay Banks was the first pick. Overall,
we've talked a lot about him. Again, we love the

(11:49):
value at pick twenty four. At that point we thought
he was going to be off the board, so we
were happy the Giants got him. Obviously, there's still work
to do there, and I feel like they're gonna make
him earn his his reps this year, right, They're gonna
make the Chory. He gets his act together with the
defensive backs coach Jeff Burris, the cornerbacks coach, Manuel the
the dbast coach overall. So uh, just again, I think

(12:12):
it was the right pick there. Like, I don't think
there was anybody obvious that you know, It's not like
Christian Gonzalez was sitting there. You know, Joey Porter Juniors
had his issues too. Over the course of the year.
The guys picked right after Deontay Banks were Dalton Kincaid,
Mazzi Smith, Anton Harrison, Miles Mercy, Miles Murphy, Brian Brazi,
who's been pretty good, Nolan Smith, who's been excellent. I

(12:35):
love Nolan Smith, by the way. So if you want
to argue Nolan Smith picked Nolan Smith, I have no
argument that. And I was on the record at the time.
I love Nolan, remember where It's just like I was
on the record to want Banks is bad, no so,
and so was I I wanted Banks too. That was
to me, it was almost a no brainer pick what
he kid. But you know the thing about him, by
the way, Felix had a dookie, Uzama will Levis, Sam Laporta,
Michael Mayor, Steve Avila, Derek Hall, Matthew BERGERA, Jonathan Mingo,

(12:57):
Isaiah Foski, b j O Jalari, Like, there's no except
for Samuel Porter, who you can obviously make that argument for. Yeah,
and Brian Branch was little. He was in the forties
in round two. There's nobody around there where you're like,
oh boy, you had to pick, No, it would be
Nolan Smith and Laporter. Those would be the two guys
you would point to.

Speaker 3 (13:14):
And to this point, I believe that Banks's skill set
and flashes still warrant the possibility that he could turn
out to be a very good value.

Speaker 1 (13:24):
Yes, it could still happen. He just has to put
it there. And by the way, we talked a little
bit about some of the stuff when they picked him
that he was still wrong. So area isn't picking up
the ball in the air was one of them right,
and he hasn't quite met something, got something. Sometimes guys
can improve on that stuff. Again, we both think Jerome
Henderson's excellent. We've seen him coach really well in the secondary,
but he wasn't able to get Banks to figure that out.

(13:45):
We'll see if the new defensive back coaches cap.

Speaker 3 (13:47):
Did you write down today? I think he gave up
one short pass today.

Speaker 1 (13:51):
Yeah, and that was it. Yes, that was it.

Speaker 3 (13:54):
You know, he has not been and you know when
he talk about offensive linemen, if they don't get noticed,
that's a good thing. Well, you know, it's one thing
to make a play in the secondary and knock a
bowl down or get a pick. That's great for sure,
But the next best thing if you're a defensive back
is not to be noticed.

Speaker 1 (14:10):
Yeah, because you didn't get burned. He was not noticed.
John Michael schmids in a round two. We've talked about
him a ton, a big year for him. We haven't
seen quite the upward trend we would have liked. Sometimes
it does take offensive lineman two or three years though,
so this is a huge year for him. The Giants
need him to be a starting a good starting level player,
yes they do, and be a rock in the middle.

(14:31):
Janalen Hyatt we already talked about. We'll see if he
gets a bigger opportunity once everyone's healthy at the wide
receiver position. Obviously important for him to just give you
more production, Paul, I mean, he just hasn't you know,
two years. Thirty one catches four into thirty five yards
it's not enough. So he needs to figure out a
way to do more. He knows that and they're working
with him to do that. Eric Gray in the fifth round.

(14:51):
He hasn't really broken through a running back, some of
the fumbles issues on special teams, Trey Hawkins has been again.
Now you're getting the six round pick, you're got I
think to the guys that are just special teams, you know,
throw throw darts type of situations, Trey Hawkins, Jordan Riley
stowing the roster at the seventh round pack, I think
that's a good win. You have a seventh round there
that's been on the roster for for two full years
and hit the end of the year three. I think

(15:12):
you feel good about that. Yeah. And then I would.

Speaker 3 (15:15):
Love to see him be more consistent though, because he
has shown some.

Speaker 1 (15:19):
Flashes and talking and talking to Dre like coach Patterson loves,
he just doesn't He doesn't carry a thing from one player,
from one lesson to another.

Speaker 3 (15:27):
So yeah, he just doesn't build on it as well
as he should. And if somehow he can put it together.

Speaker 1 (15:33):
I do like his tools. John. I think he could
be a good rotational player, got it. And then Jervarius Owens,
who's no longer on the roster. All right, So now
let's go to the draft as a whole.

Speaker 3 (15:42):
I want to mention Hawkins one thing though, Ye Hawkhead
Hawkins the bigger, longer corner compared to Cordell Flott. Both
of them are outside in my opinion, They're both boundary corners.
I've told you I don't like Flott in the slot.
I think Flott is a better boundary corner. He plays
the biz better, He knows how to use the sideline,
He handles that responsibility much better than he does the

(16:06):
left go out of the slot. So for me, Hawkins
and Flot is one of the things I'm going to
be watching in training camp and during the preseason because
right now Flat's way ahead of him, but Flott has
had injury problems. So if Flot can't stay on the
field and show the Giants that he deserves to be
in that spot, Hawkins may have a chance to try

(16:29):
to wrestle that away from him and move ahead of.

Speaker 1 (16:31):
Him on the depth choir. And we have seen flashes
from him in practice but games, and he's been given
opportunities to showing in games too, and it has not
shown up. I think what.

Speaker 3 (16:39):
Happened when he got here, he was too raw, got
thrown into the deep end of the pool so quickly.
I think it actually set him back. I really believe that.

Speaker 1 (16:48):
Now he does have a nice tool box. However, he
came from old dominion, folks, so he was a kid
that you needed to develop a little.

Speaker 3 (16:54):
Yeah, it's not exactly a major program, So I do
think that for me, folks.

Speaker 1 (17:00):
So I'm gonna let you know. We'll talk about this.

Speaker 3 (17:01):
Of course it's some time down the road, but I'm
telling you right now, I'm giving your sneak preview.

Speaker 1 (17:05):
Flott versus Hawkins.

Speaker 3 (17:07):
I think Flott has a large lead, but that is
a battle that I'm going to be looking for.

Speaker 4 (17:12):
All right.

Speaker 1 (17:12):
Now, let's get to the draft as a whole, Paul.
We'll try to get through this quickly. But they're actually
it actually was a very interesting draft, believe it or not.
And when I was looking through it this morning, just
saying like, all right, well, this is actually this is
interesting to talk about. This is interesting to talk about.
This isn't interesting to talk about. So let's start the
top very quickly. We can kind of take both quarterbacks
one two together, where I think you still feel better

(17:35):
long term about Stroud as a quarterback than Bryce Young,
but based on how they played last year, Young certainly
closed the gap. Based only on a year one, he
played a lot better. But I still wonder if this
goes back to the when all things are equal, you
want to pick the guy with a little bit better tools.
Straud's a little bit bigger, He's got a little bit
of a better arm. Now, I don't think he moves
as well as Bryce Young does. I think Bryce Young
moves a little bit better with Stroud does, But you

(17:56):
do wondre you know, do you air on the side
of tools there a little bit? Both guys are accurate.
That's not an issue with either one of the guys.
So Stroud's better with that though than than than Young.
I think so Young was damn accurate in college.

Speaker 3 (18:10):
Though, man, I know, but so far in the pros
he's had more troubles with that.

Speaker 1 (18:16):
Also, when you're throwing the receivers that are open, like
Vigo Collins and Bryce Young has not exactly had the
help around it has a better supporting cast.

Speaker 3 (18:23):
I agree with that too, So I think, don't you
want to put the third quarterback in here? Too, because
Anthony Richardson.

Speaker 1 (18:29):
Was right in there. I have him next on my list.
So Anthony Richardson got picked at fourth overall that year,
and I didn't like that pick there either, And I
think we all thought it was a little bit of
a reach. We understood the tools. And this goes back
to I want to it's not shoot, who is the
I want to say Trey Young. I know that's not
sure who is the who is the quarterback? The Niners
took that wind up with the Cowboys Trey Lance Lance.

(18:50):
I want to keeps saying Tree Young Lance still still ambable.
So I know both those guys just did not play
a ton of football in college. And you go back
to the parcels roles that you like to bring up.
You want to have, but thirty games, what's his role
over Actually.

Speaker 3 (19:06):
You want to have about forty something starts. You want
to have thirty plus wins. That was one of the
other categories.

Speaker 1 (19:12):
So, like, you know, I think thirty starts is a
good one. I think you'd like to have your quarterback
come out with, you know, definitely more than twenty to
twenty five. Like Borrow came out he'd around twenty five,
which is okay as an onion correct, and I think
some of those guys and like so is Josh Allen.
He came out, but Josh Allen was able to develop,
but he played more football than he did then than

(19:33):
he did, so I think that's you have to worry
about picking Toolsy's quarterback. Quarterbacks high that just don't have
a lot of experience playing the game, especially figuring out
the mental part of it. I think is what's the

(19:54):
most difficult thing for a quarterback? And you don't know
a lot of snaps. You need to make those reps
up in the pros and hard to make up reps
in the pro because you're going against pros. They're not
gonna leave you in there if you're not good. So
you know, I'm serious. But like the learning curve is
not an excuse. I forget. It's the problem. You know
the old cliche you need to do something for what

(20:14):
is it eighty thousand hours or one thousand hours, whatever
it has it become an expert at it. He just
doesn't have enough hours on task and then he comes
in he gets hurts his rookie year. How many games
has he started? Anthony Richardson and he has played fifteen
games in two years. So combine that with the fact
that he didn't play a lot in college. He probably
should be starting his NFL career now, and now he's

(20:38):
in a competition to save his NFL career. So I
think that's that's what I take out of the Richardson thing. Guys,
even tho if they're great tools, if they haven't played
a lot, it gets difficult.

Speaker 3 (20:49):
What's interesting is, you know, every every year over the
last several years, as we've started talking more and more
about quarterbacks for the Giants, I've done the Parcels Rules
and I've put all quarterbacks in the class, or at
least the top ten or top twelve, through the Parcels
Rules tests. Yep, here's the funniest part, John. This past spring,
I believe eleven of the consensus top twelve quarterbacks in

(21:13):
the draft passed almost all and the.

Speaker 1 (21:16):
Year before they probably did too. There was a bunch, ye,
not as many as this year. Pennix would have, McCarthy
wouldn't have, Jade and Daniels certainly would have, and I
think probably Drake may Drake they played started thirty years
right up the course of three years. So you're looking
at half of that class.

Speaker 3 (21:31):
This year's though it was even better in terms of
checking those boxes than last year's, and yet it was
not a great class in terms of talent. So I
guess the lesson to be learned from that philosophy. And again,
in a way Richardson would have fit into this because
he did not check Harry Man of the parcels boxes
at all. But the lesson to be learned is, even

(21:53):
if you check all the boxes, if you don't have
the toolbox. Honestly, it's a problem. You still need toolbox,
no matter how many boxes.

Speaker 1 (22:02):
That's why you need both. Yeah, you need both.

Speaker 3 (22:04):
The tune of checklist is a great thing to use,
but it's not the whole Enchilada correct.

Speaker 1 (22:09):
Okay, Now the other pick in the top ten, actually
the two there's two pockets here, tyree with Wilson at
seven overall. Yeah, we talked about that as a big
time traits pick, but not a lot of production as
a pass rusher. And you could even throw Lucas van
Ness into that category at number thirteen. Great traits, not
a lot of production. In college, Wilson did have two

(22:30):
seven sack years, but it just wasn't consistent enough game
to game, and I think we're seeing you want some
level of production from your pass rusher in college to
guarantee you it's going to translate. Now, do you have
exceptions to the rule where guys didn't do a ton
of college and it works, Yes, But I think you
are taking more of a risk when you're picking a guy.
And I think Wilson was an older prospect too. Wasn't

(22:52):
he like twenty four years old or something? Don't remember that, right,
I don't remember, But that's something you have to take
a look at. He was aged twenty. Let's see when
was he born. He's twenty five now. He was twenty
three when he got drafted. Okay, that's older prospect, right,
So if you're gonna be an older prospect, you better
have some really good production and just rolling the dice
on on traits only at that spot, I think it'd

(23:12):
be a little bit risky.

Speaker 3 (23:13):
When I looked at this, when I got your message
on about what we were doing, I looked at it
as the next ten to twenty group. And the one
guy that stuck out to me that I wanted to
comment play on was Jack Campbell because we talked about
him at that combine as he was the one kind
of throwback in sideline backer.

Speaker 1 (23:33):
Yeah, bigger guy, right, yep, the more sturdy guy. He
was like two to forty five coming Stout has has
some good hitting skills about him. Smart, you know this.
This guy's going to be a good run stuffer. But
the question was in today's game, as it's morphed, how
was he going to do in this NFL? And I
think he strolled a little bit as a rookie, but
I think we saw a big jump in his second year.

(23:54):
They jumped this past year.

Speaker 3 (23:55):
Yeah, he seems he seems to have gotten it, and
I think so for me at eighteen, that's still an
interesting pick.

Speaker 1 (24:01):
Because you little rich still, I think.

Speaker 3 (24:03):
But yeah, you don't see middle linebackers or inside backers
going in the top twenty.

Speaker 1 (24:07):
You don't.

Speaker 3 (24:08):
And when he got taken there, we were surprised, even
though we knew he was the best one of the crop.

Speaker 1 (24:13):
Yeah. I think we both liked him at the top
of the second round, right, Yeah, and he went really
high for us. And that's the first name.

Speaker 3 (24:20):
When I looked at that group of ten, the first
thing that stuck out to me was I remember talking
about him a lot, and look, the Lions are not
sorry about the production they're getting out of him now. No,
but at the time eighteen seemed rich in retrospect. What
do you think about the running backs at eight and twelve?
Dejon Robbinson at eight and Gibbs a twelve, Because that's
always a debate we have.

Speaker 1 (24:39):
How high should you pick the running back? Right? Yeah,
I mean.

Speaker 3 (24:44):
The toolbox has translated for both players.

Speaker 1 (24:47):
Okay, but let me put this way with the Falcons
be better off if they took Jalen Carter probably would
the Lions be better off if they took Christian Gonzales.
I don't know. I think they they They've they've been
hunting for corners, right, I know, I know, I know.
I think they Again, I think they probably would be.

(25:07):
But both those players I think have given them given
their teams enough to justify the selections. I agree with that,
But I still would they have done better? I could
they have done better? Yeah, that's that's a fair that's
a fair debate.

Speaker 3 (25:22):
Yes, But I would also agree with your first statement
that I think they got enough value that they're not
sorry about the picks.

Speaker 1 (25:29):
I agree with that. One other thing, I wanted to
mention the top ten. I jumped over to go to
the quarterback. Will Anderson has been a really good NFL player,
So nineteen sacks in his first two years.

Speaker 3 (25:39):
Yeah, I'm curious, Now, where are you going with this one?

Speaker 1 (25:42):
Because I think he's pretty good. Was it worth trading
the twelfth overall pick, the thirty third overall pick and
at one and a three the following year to get
him there? Not to this point? And that's where I'm going, Oh,
because that's fair because we and and the Texans did
get a fourth round pick back. And but now you

(26:05):
look at the Houston roster and how they're capped out
in a lot of ways. They just had to trade
their starting left tackle. Those other players they couldn't have
used a one, a two, and a three to fill
holes on that offensive line. CJ. Shoud's great if you
can't protect who cares right? Who cares? So while Will

(26:25):
anders has been great, and we talk about it again,
really good player, Like if you're just picking him third overall,
that's a good pick, but the the price to move
up to do it in the end, even though he
was everything they thought he was going to be and
and he is This is not a criticism of the
player or them targeting the player at all, but would

(26:48):
they like to have those other picks instead, so they
could have two offensive linemen and then some other pass
rusher that that that they could have picked a little
bit later in the dry.

Speaker 3 (27:00):
They're happy they have will Anderson butt Buyer's remorse.

Speaker 1 (27:04):
You talk about whether it's worth it trading up what
you have to do to get a non quarter, right,
and I think that is a prime example, right because
it's an elite it's an elite player and an elite position.
But you're still wondering, did it cost you too much?

Speaker 3 (27:20):
For Anderson to have made that price payoff? He would
have had to probably have had thirty sacks in his
first two years instead of what he has now.

Speaker 1 (27:30):
I don't know if it was possible, because it's not
what rookie has ever had thirty sacks in its first
two years. Not disagreeing, but that's what I'm saying.

Speaker 3 (27:38):
That's what I think to make it pay off, he
would and and to boot right, I don't. I don't
know what his tackle numbers were his first two years,
aside from his sacks. Let's see here, because aside for.

Speaker 1 (27:48):
I got here fifty six solo tackles. That's not bad.

Speaker 3 (27:54):
But again, you know, I probably would have wanted to
see uh, you know, thirty sacks over the first two years,
which is.

Speaker 1 (28:02):
Really really fifty six solo eighty two combined and with
this for both years combined. Oh, that's not enough. Took
to forty tackles.

Speaker 3 (28:12):
Yeah, to make to make that pick worth it, he
would have had to have unrealistic numbers of thirty combined
sacks and probably about one hundred and fifty tackles.

Speaker 1 (28:22):
All right, now, I want to do a couple other
things real quick. We laughed and couldn't believe it at
the time. The Emmanuel Forbes over Dallas Peck. I know, guys,
weight matters at corner like he was too small and
it did not work. He's even on a roster right now.
You know, it's a good question, Well did you look
that up? I don't think that he is, but it's
worth a look. Quentin Johnson at twenty one we talked about.

(28:45):
He was kind of you have to be able to imagine, Paul,
what the role for the player is going to be.
Forbes the rams with the Rams, So you have to
be able. When you draft the player, you want to
imagine what their role is going to be, what type
of receiver they're going to be. And I always thought
Quentin Johnston, I couldn't figure out what he was right.
He was a bigger body receiver that wasn't good at

(29:06):
contested catches. He didn't separate well, but he was a
good run after the catch. And I couldn't find another
NFL player that fit that criteria that I could say,
all right, he's gonna be that type of guy. And
I think it's proven out that he's had trouble finding
a niche in the league a little bit, and among
that group of wide receivers in the middle end of
the first round, four in a row. But Spike James

(29:27):
has been good, he's the same. Flowers has been good.
Jordan Addison has been good. He's the one. He's the
one where you would trouble find figuring out what And
by the way, and I was gonna bring this up later,
but I'll do it now, Jonathan Mingo did not work
out a round two. Again, again, that did not separate well.
So beware guys that don't separate. That's a rule here.
But then you would Jayden Reed, who you know I

(29:48):
was a big fan of that year. He hit in
round two. And then Rashie Rice, who I think I
thought he was more of a third round him, but
he hit. He hit at the end of round two,
so there were other wide receivers, and then Tank Dell,
by the way, was the first wide receiver picking round three,
so you with other guys that hit there, and even
Marvin Mims, who has not been in every down guy,

(30:09):
he's proven to be a deep threat for them. He's
been a big play wide receiver for them in Denver,
and he was an end of the second round pick.
So I thought the wide receiver class is always interesting
to look at where you would only three second round wider,
four second round wide receivers that year, and then you
had it in round three, you would Tank del Jalen Hyatt,
Segret Tillman, Josh Downs in round three. Ends that he's

(30:30):
a really good player. I remember I was. I can't
believe he lasted as long as he did. Michael Wilson's
been okay for the Cardinals. He's been fine, and Trey
Tucker has actually carved that nice little role for him
with the Raiders as a deep threat at the end
of round three. He's been pretty good too, So that
was interesting going back to the first round very quickly.
A lot of times, Paul, I think we just sick
good receiver form minute. Yeah, he was picked right after

(30:54):
Hyatt hasn't done much and no, and again not a
separator he was not.

Speaker 3 (30:59):
But going in we did think that he was gonna
be one of those higher level guys, even though he
did not show great separation. A lot of people thought
he'd be a second rounder. He went in the third
after high.

Speaker 1 (31:10):
He was also one of the guys he there weren't
many big wide receivers in this draft, so if you
wanted a bigger wide receiver, that was the guy you
had the pick.

Speaker 3 (31:17):
And you know how I always loved those guys. And
keep in mind too, to me, he's been a disappointment
with Johnston. Tilman also has not exactly been in a
great situation in Cleveland with the guys throwing.

Speaker 1 (31:26):
Him the ball. No Quinn Johnson's hat justin Herbert a
little bit different there, Yes, like maybe if Tillman's in
a better spot, he gives you a little bit more.
It's possible. Maybe, I don't know. I don't know, but yes,
your point stands. I think sometimes you talk about certain
positions and players being safe, and I think that's probably
not as true as often as we want it to be. Okay,

(31:48):
because I think when the Cowboys picked Mazie Smith, that
picked twenty six, or like, it's not a sexy pick,
but it's a high flour pick. We all, we're gonna
get a guy that can stuff the run, extend the arms,
shed and tackle. He's been terrible for them, agreed, And
we thought that was a beast because look, you saw
him doing college, yes, at an extremely high level, no question,

(32:09):
exactly what you wanted to do it. You would want
to do it, the.

Speaker 3 (32:11):
Pro buying what you saw. It wasn't about potential with him,
it was about production. He was very good against the run.

Speaker 1 (32:17):
The only potential part, well, Kenny developed a pass rush game, right,
That was the point. If heart did, you still thought
you would get the dominant run stopper, and it has
it has not been. That did not get it. So
I think we had to be careful sometimes assuming some
guys are safe when maybe nobody's safe. Well that's how
gms get fired. Correct. No, I know we talked about
Laporta at thirty four, really good pick, and again back

(32:39):
to back Laporta and Mayor. Right, Mayor was supposed to
be the top tight end in that class, so Kinka
went around one. I feel think he's been a little
bit of a disappointment. I don't like the way the
Bills use him. Yeah, but anyway, Laporta at thirty four,
you know, I was a huge fan of his. You
were bigger on him, I was bigger on Mayor. So
far I've lost talk about tight ends being a traits position, right, Yeah,
and people height with speed a tight end. Well, Sam

(33:02):
Laporter's RAS score relative out a score nine point oh one,
Mayor's just seven point six. Yeah, and you look at it.
That translates with the way they've shown up in the pros, right,
we've seen it as the athleticism and explosiveness of Laporta.
Now Mayor. Keep in mind they've drafted brock Bowers the
following year, so he's not going to get as many

(33:23):
targets as being targeted million times. I get that, but
the athleticism hasn't popped enough for Mayor, in my opinion,
to make him more of that difference, making tight end
I totally.

Speaker 3 (33:33):
Concur but that same long the same along the lines
of what you just said philosophically is one of the
reasons why the Giants is so high on THEO Johnson.

Speaker 1 (33:42):
He was a nine to nine eight nine eight score
and by the way, Soda Fidoni this year and Soda
Bellinger by the way, So the Giants draft trades based
tight ends, that's what they do.

Speaker 3 (33:56):
I won't say who, but a long time former player
actually mentioned to me that they think the Giants tight
end room is stacked.

Speaker 1 (34:05):
A lot of people don't think. I think it's stacked
with potential. It's not stacked with players yet, right, And
that's fair. That's fair. But there's a lot of tools
in that room. There are tools, yes, but can the
tools be put to good use to build the right thing?
I know? Last one I'll bring up is just pick
good football players like slot corner has become a very
important position in league ball. And the fact that Brian

(34:28):
Branch was sitting there and picked number forty five that
year was a joke. And we said it at the time. Yes,
it was a joke at the time when we saw
it happen. Yep, there was no reason and he played
more safety last year than he did slot. It was
about fifty to fifty. The first year is almost a
slot only guy. But that you're just sitting there in
the second round and a really good player sitting there.
Just pick the player. I don't care where he plays, yep,

(34:49):
just pick the player. Once you get to the second round,
you got a great player. I don't care where he plays.
Pick the player.

Speaker 3 (34:54):
Yeah, no, I totally agree with that, John. And you
know that's why when you talk about the board and
they talk about clustering guys, and you're talking about positions
and then ranks and where's the value and where you
know you want need.

Speaker 1 (35:08):
To match value.

Speaker 3 (35:09):
But when value sticks out like a sore thumb, pick
the guy.

Speaker 1 (35:13):
You just got to do it. Even if it's not
an elite position, that's it. You just got to do it.

Speaker 3 (35:17):
It's like this, this guy should have been taken ten
picks ago and he's sitting here.

Speaker 1 (35:22):
You gotta do it. You just got to do it.
And if I'm not mistaken, who is it?

Speaker 3 (35:29):
Was it?

Speaker 5 (35:29):
Uh?

Speaker 1 (35:32):
Was it alex Was it Alexander? This year? Yeah? Round three? Yeah,
But they said he's stuck out like thumb. He's stuck
out like a sore thumb. I believe.

Speaker 3 (35:41):
I believe somebody from the organization, whether it was Coach
Stable or Joe Shane, said that, you know, originally at
that spot they were thinking Joe told in our interview
right yep, where he said they thought that the way
the board was falling, they were probably going to go
with a different position there. But when Alexander, you know,

(36:01):
basically has fireworks shooting out of his head, we.

Speaker 1 (36:04):
Gotta get that guy fighting. Come on, we can't pass
him up. All right, folks, Uh, sorry for going all
along on our chat today, but I thought that was
an instructive I thought it was a fun draft to
learn some lessons from in terms of how you evaluate
some of these guys. All right, don't forget folks. The
Giants Little Podcast is up on the Giants app, all
podcast platforms, Giants dot com, slash podcast, YouTube channel. Check

(36:25):
it out. A lot of good stuff is up there
right now. I talked to Bob Popo last week. We
have Marcus Johnson, Marcus Bose, offensive line coach, Thomas Vedoni's
tight end coaches up there. We have a couple more
guys coming up this week. We're gonna have Mike Gundy,
who is Black's defensive backs coach in Oklahoma State. Uh,
we're gonna have next week. I got Cam Scattabow's running

(36:46):
backs coach from Arizona State. So that's coming up. Uh
to the Jason take I did? I did that on Friday?
Oh good did Jason Kandell, head coach at Toledo of
Darius Alexander. That's going up next couple of weeks. So, uh,
make sure you go check that on the Johns Tottle podcast.
And don't forget to go think about getting a Giant
season ticket membership. Impactful draft, fun schedule, great opponents at home.

(37:07):
Take your fans to the next level with the season
ticket membership. Catch all the action of MetLife Stadium. With
a membership, you'll also stay connected to the club all
year round, not just on game Day's exclusive member access
and benefits. To learn more, go to Giants dot com
slash tickets. All right, Paul, let's get to the calls. Two, one, nine, four,
five one through. We'll get to as many people as
we can. We'll take them in the order they came in.
So it's gonna be Jason first, then Shakes, then rob

(37:29):
Let's lead off with Jason and new Haven. He's up
first today, Jason, what's up? What's up?

Speaker 5 (37:34):
Fella's how you guys are doing.

Speaker 1 (37:35):
We're good, man, Hi, good good?

Speaker 5 (37:39):
Yeah, just quick points. I enjoyed the conversation you two
gentlemen just had about the twenty three draft. And you
know what I've always said, man, the draft is one
of the biggest crapshoots in all the sports. Yeah, you
could do all your homework, and I know different offices
around the league do their homework talks. Every Body test
these guys out wonder lick test, but you really don't

(38:00):
know until they get on the field. And it's not
just the Giants, No, it's very hard national narratives. The Giants,
you know, they draft players that don't work out. Well,
it's just not the Giants. I've heard a lot of
names on that list you guys have from the twenty
three draft that haven't really contributed much. So that was
just a great combo you guys had.

Speaker 1 (38:19):
I enjoyed it well, Jason, I will put it this way,
and we all I think we're all in agreement here.
As much as it make my pain for us to
say it that one of the best drafting teams in
the National Football League are the Philadelphia Eagles. Correct, they're
sugar drafters and they're very good at what they do. Well,
I'm going to go back to the twenty twenty NFL Draft.

(38:40):
The Eagles are sitting there that pick number twenty one,
and they selected Jalen Regar over Justin Jefferson. Yeah, so
even the best teams can make catastrophic mistakes. It happens
in basketball too. Absolutely, that goes a little bit tougher
because there's only so many good players.

Speaker 3 (38:57):
But yes, you consider all the manpower hours and all
the millions and millions of dollars that are put into
a scouting department and a personnel department. Do you think
anybody intentionally wants to make a mistake.

Speaker 1 (39:08):
It's hard. It's hard, you know what I mean.

Speaker 3 (39:10):
So anyway, Frank ragnow, according to Pat McAfee, has informed.

Speaker 1 (39:15):
The Detroit Lions, he plans to retire.

Speaker 3 (39:18):
This was after he was in a contract dispute and
was hoping to h to get a better deal out
of them. After becoming a you know, a four time
Pro Bowl.

Speaker 1 (39:27):
Center, didn't they draft the center?

Speaker 3 (39:29):
I mean, my goodness, I don't know. I don't know
if they did they draft WHOA.

Speaker 1 (39:33):
That's interesting. So our lads has Tate ratlerge lifted as
a as a center on their depth chart?

Speaker 3 (39:39):
Well, he was a guard slash center with the potential
guard mostly guard center and games. But with them, I
don't think he did, but there was some potential. Yeah
flex correct. But but Ragnar, this just came over. I'm
sorry to interrupt you. Pat McAfee just posted this on
Twitter a couple of seconds ago. Frank Ragnow, wow, that's
a that's a big blow for the line.

Speaker 1 (39:59):
He's a great player. So they lost now him and
Zeitler this off, Yeah, which is tough.

Speaker 5 (40:03):
Yes, yeah, So just three quick points of your other callers.
I'll make a bullet points and then I'll take the
answers off their ears. I'm bullish on the tight end room.
I called a few weeks ago. Maybe it was Paul
on the call of John. I don't remember specifically, but
I did. I did state that Joe Shane has been here.
He has he has a thing for Titans with that

(40:25):
high RAS score and for donates MHM drafts and THEO.
Now for donate, I really me personally, I could see
the Giants keeping all four tight ends on the roster
because I don't think for DONI will go through Waivers
and I and I think they're like Manhurts for the

(40:45):
blocking and bellingers, so I think.

Speaker 1 (40:47):
They will to Jason, I agree, I think they're gonna
keep four.

Speaker 5 (40:51):
Yeah, I'm I'm I'm kind of leaning that way. I
just I don't say, you see you for donate clearing Waivers.
I think another team would scoop him up.

Speaker 3 (40:59):
But by the way, you have a good comment about
him liking high ras tried ends. Darren Waller was like
nine point three. Yeah, so there's another guy too. You're
seeing the trend. You absolutely identified that trend correctly.

Speaker 5 (41:13):
Yeah so, and then the last two points Russell. I'm
excited about Russell. I think I think Giants fans and
some football fans just you know, as a whole, think
that if you don't have a top five or top
ten quarterback, you can't make a playoff run. And I
think that's just a I think that narrative is kind

(41:34):
of old to me. I think he, by far will
be the best quarterback we've had since Eli. Now, yes,
he's on the back nine of his career. But you know,
we've seen quarterbacks and I'm not saying he will, but
we have seen quarterbacks playing to the late thirties early
forties at a pretty high level. So I'm excited about him.
And then the last point, I know you guys mentioned

(41:58):
Deontay Banks JMS, and I'm gonna kind of group Cavon
in this group just for the sake of an argument.
You know, I'm particularly not giving up on those three.
I know you guys didn't mention Kvon. I know you
mentioned the other two, but like I said, just mentioned
just group him in. You know, these guys are still

(42:18):
young players, you know, cave On twenty four. I think
Jams is the oldest of the tree. Off I forgot
how old he is, and in Banks as a young
young player too. And while they have the awards, you know,
we all know that progression as a player isn't always linear.
You know, it's not like a plane where you just
take off you get to thirty thousand, it's just smooth sailing.

(42:41):
You know, you're gonna have some bumps, you know, some
some some ups and downs. So it's not for you too,
but just other giants fans that have kind of been
down on these young players. You know, let's give these
guys a shot. I thought Kavon had a nice year.
I think people get stuck on well, he was a
fifth overall pick. You're supposed to give us fifteen sacks
every year. You know, I don't necessarily believe that JMS.

(43:04):
I thought he had a good year last year.

Speaker 4 (43:06):
Was it?

Speaker 5 (43:07):
You know, will he the best ender in the league. No,
but I thought he made some strides, especially with two
veteran guards and in Banks he had a down year.
But I'm not giving up on young players. And just
for the sake of argument, I'll take this off the here.
Social media and the new you know, social media, sports media, fans,
NFL fans as a whole. It's a good thing it

(43:32):
wasn't around back in the day, because I'm I'm gonna
bring up two players and I'll take your ants off
the here. If social media and the way people are
so quick to give up on young players was around
back in the day, we wouldn't have two players. Two
great players right in our Giants franchise history, one is
a Hall of Famer and one was an integral part

(43:53):
of the eight Super Bowl. Right, people, people forget straight
hand Hall of Famer, Ring of Ring of Honor, a
ring member, but people forget his first four years are
very underwhelming. You know, I know he was a lower draft.
I think it was a second or third round pick
foot right, absolutely, But I'm just by.

Speaker 1 (44:13):
The way, so did Justin Talk. When Justin Tuck came in,
same thing happened with Talk.

Speaker 4 (44:17):
He broke and wasn't high.

Speaker 5 (44:19):
Fact guy his first.

Speaker 1 (44:22):
League exploded, ripped his ACL twice yep.

Speaker 5 (44:26):
And then last player Corey Webster, right for the young
people that weren't around for those super Bowl runs, you know,
the Old eight super Bowl run. You know, people don't
realize how down people were on Corey Webster when he draft.
You know, after the second round out of LSU. He
had some up and down years and then what happened.
Things Sometimes it takes players. Sometime things clicked and he

(44:49):
was an integral part of the Old eight season. So
I just want to say all the fans just you know,
don't don't down all these young players. They're still growing.
Like I said, Kavon is twenty four, twenty four years old,
like he's still progressing. You know, give these guys a shot,
because you know what's going to happen. Oh, we don't
want Caveon or cave you know what happened. He'll be
a free agent.

Speaker 1 (45:09):
He'll remember this, you know.

Speaker 3 (45:14):
Kavon also had the sprained MCL, which really hurt him
a lot during his rookie season.

Speaker 1 (45:21):
This though, too. There was sports talk radio back then,
so there were plenty of avenues for people to be
down on players. Oh yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (45:27):
And by the way, Webster was two thousand and seven
when he helped the Giants win that Super Bowl.

Speaker 1 (45:31):
Not eight. Well the game wasn't eight, yeah, but it
was the seventh season.

Speaker 3 (45:35):
See.

Speaker 1 (45:35):
Here's the thing, though, Jason, And this is where, while I.

Speaker 3 (45:39):
Agree with your point, this is also a coaching point,
because the player and the coach have to meet somewhere
in the middle. It is the responsibility of the position
coach and the coordinator as much as it is the
player to make the proper adjustments and to adapt and
to learn each other and to find the best way

(46:00):
to maximize the guy's performance. That's the responsibility of everybody involved.

Speaker 1 (46:04):
John. It's not just on the player, and it's not
just on the coach. Everybody's got to work together. Absolutely,
I'm with you on that. Let me just comment on
as Russell Wilson point. Yeah, you don't need a top
five quarterback to make a playoff run, but if you
don't have a top tennis quarterback, it's very hard to
win the Super Bowl, very hard. I don't have a
problem with that. I know, I'm not trying to argue

(46:26):
with you. I was just coming in out what he said,
and then the other part of it too. He goes,
you know, quarterbacks now regularly play deep into their thirties.
I think we're finding out that Tom Brady was an exception. Well,
has Aaron Rodgers been great into his late thirties? Did
Peyton Manning play great into his late thirties? Did Drew
Breeze play great into his late thirties? They all dropped

(46:47):
off in that like thirty eight ish type area.

Speaker 3 (46:50):
Yeah, I think Wilson's getting closer to that point. I
don't think he's quite there yet.

Speaker 1 (46:55):
No, I agree with that. I'm just making the point
to a general point where we say guys can play
aga into their early forties and still be really good.
It's really only one guy that's played into his early
forties and been really really good and it's Tom Brady.

Speaker 3 (47:06):
There's a law of diminishing returns. And even though I
do believe that you can be in the league to
your forty and maybe even be a competent backup, I
think to play as a high level starter late thirties
is where it starts getting a little sketchy.

Speaker 1 (47:20):
Yeah, I start hitting thirty seven, thirty eight, and it
starts getting That's that's where you know, you got to
start keeping an eye out, Like that's where Cousins is now, right,
and he had a big down year last year. It's
just you know, it gets tougher well, and part.

Speaker 3 (47:32):
Of that is because the beating that you take over
the course of those years takes a toll.

Speaker 1 (47:37):
Absolutely, all right, we got two more calls. Let's get
him in before we say goodbye. Here shakes in Baltimore,
Marilyn shakes. What's going on, man, what's going on?

Speaker 4 (47:47):
Ah?

Speaker 6 (47:47):
Yeah, great conversations with with a perious topics here. So yeah,
talk about twenty three drafts.

Speaker 1 (47:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (47:58):
And the thing about it, when I was going to
talk about what that draft here is these guys like
Banks cms Hyatt, their time is now, like this is
the time that they have to show something because well,
Banks and Hyatt they showed promise in that rookie season,
but then kind of regressed in that second.

Speaker 1 (48:19):
Shakes, I say it all the time, man, you don't
rely on your rookie class to elevate your team. You're
relying on your second, third, and four year guys to
elevate your team and improve. I'm with you on that
one hundred percent.

Speaker 6 (48:29):
Yeah, So they did regress, but I can remember, and
y'all brought up a fact of Webster, right, some the
last caller Webster, And I remember, because y'all know my
memory is great. So I remember Western showed promise in
his rookie season but regressed in his second season.

Speaker 3 (48:50):
You know why, Shakes, he was a pressman corner and
they had him playing off coverage and zoned and that's.

Speaker 1 (48:57):
Not what he was playing. Well, I think, Shakes, are
you trying to make?

Speaker 3 (49:03):
Oh, there's a comparison here. I've been making this comparison
for the last year. It's it's possibly Corey Webster two point.

Speaker 7 (49:10):
Oh, it's very well could be with that, it's very
well good they're saying, right, and and when we and
then back then we took Ross Aaron Ross right, Texas
to try to be.

Speaker 6 (49:21):
That number one corner. Now we just got part of
center debo something comparisons.

Speaker 4 (49:27):
You know what I'm saying, this comparison.

Speaker 6 (49:29):
But yeah, I think that those guys have to step
up in this second season or in this third season.
They have to show that they are that player that
they showed the promise in because if they showed the
player that they showed in regressing, it's not gonna.

Speaker 1 (49:46):
Be good for Come on, use use my term. I
want to get copyright money on this. They show me players.
They are showing me players.

Speaker 6 (49:54):
They are they are they are. I don't it's for
it's for their money and it's for their families, all right. Also, right,
y'all was talking down on Quentin Johnson. Now not so much,
but I kind of took a little offense to it
because this is my guy, right and I.

Speaker 1 (50:11):
Didn't know he was your guys. I didn't know he
was your guy.

Speaker 6 (50:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. So in that draft class, I
believe I came on BBK and said, look, Quentin Johnson,
I like him, the big body receiver. Pete Dot was
done with that. But here's my thing. I also said
in that process that it's going to take a year
for him because he was so young, you know what

(50:37):
I'm saying, so raw, that it's going to take a
year for him to learn. And it shows in rookie
season thirty eight receptions, four hundred and thirty one yards,
two touchdowns.

Speaker 1 (50:48):
He was much better in his second year. You're right
about that.

Speaker 6 (50:50):
He was much better absolutely last year. Fifty five recepts,
the seven hundred and eleven yards, eight touchdowns, and that
is what you got him for the red zone threat.

Speaker 5 (51:01):
So don't be.

Speaker 1 (51:02):
Toocked down man, nah shakes. So you're fair, though, look shakes,
he made good progress in here two and if he
continues that yourjectory, that's going to turn out to be
an okay, peck. That's very fair. Absolutely, there's more to
come here. I think that's fair. You're right, that's fair.

Speaker 3 (51:16):
But but I do think that he has not been
as spectacular maybe right out of the box, as they
would have liked.

Speaker 6 (51:21):
I think that's fair, right, And I don't think nobody, well,
I didn't think that. Okay, my question that I'm taking
off the air for y'all, and thank y'all for taking
my call. I wanted to know from y'all's perspective, how
are the quarterbacks and the wide receivers connecting so far?
Like how is their connection going? And like you know

(51:42):
and in routes and breaks and stuff like that. You know,
a quarterback and wide receiver has to be in sync.
So I want to know, like, how are they connecting
so far?

Speaker 1 (51:52):
And again, thank you for having shakes. It's great to
have you back in the mix.

Speaker 4 (51:56):
Man.

Speaker 1 (51:56):
Welcome, love to have you call always, always big fan.
You know, it's it's Ohta's, it's spring. I haven't seen
I haven't seen guys like not on the same page
on a lot of this stuff. No as stuff maybe
not been in perfect stride and things of that nature. Maybe,
but it's the spring. I mean that type of stuff

(52:18):
is expected. So there's been nothing shakes that I would
consider to be a red flag.

Speaker 3 (52:22):
See, I'm gonna double down on John's comment about it's
just Ohta's because remember there's no contact. So if nobody
is pressing these guys, nobody is jamming these guys, and
nobody in the secondary is playing them extra close because
they can't touch them. To be frank, it's kind of
easy to get excited about completed passes, but there's not

(52:44):
a lot of true conditions going on, so I think
this John is right.

Speaker 1 (52:49):
The one thing you always look for is.

Speaker 3 (52:52):
Guys who totally bust a play, because then the coach
is going to give him Heck. I haven't seen hardly
any of guys getting reamed out because they're busting plays.
They seem to be on the same page. And in
terms of the throws, yeah, they're not the hardest throws
to make because routes are not being jostled and wide

(53:15):
receivers are not worried about getting hit, so that does
make it easier to hit your target accurately. But yes,
I would say they've done well. There's nothing alarming there
that I've seen, John.

Speaker 1 (53:25):
But what does it really account for. We're broadcasting from
our podcast studio presented by Hackensack and Marine Health Keep
getting Better. Let's wrap things up with Rob and Re
Rob in Rochester. Pardon me, you're with us on Big
Blue Kick Off Live. What's up?

Speaker 5 (53:39):
Rob?

Speaker 6 (53:40):
Hey?

Speaker 4 (53:40):
Jo? How you doing? We're good team men today.

Speaker 1 (53:43):
Appreciate that.

Speaker 6 (53:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (53:45):
I just want to get a quick shout out to
my buddy Paul, my best friend born January third, nineteen
eighty one. The same day as Eli Man and he's
got a little boy named Eli. Wow, great giants, and
I just want to give him the quick shout.

Speaker 1 (54:02):
All the best. Sure, that's awesome. Same age as me
Man forty three. We're getting old.

Speaker 4 (54:07):
Yeah, dude, it happens.

Speaker 1 (54:08):
It happens real fast.

Speaker 4 (54:10):
Quick message to our regulars. My boy Wilson, my boy Charlie.
I love you, gush, but let's keep some option, miss dude.
Come on, it's the off season. We haven't even gotten
here yet. This is my favorite time of the year.
Who we haven't even done a fait check. Nobody's hit anybody?
What are we waiting for? Why you gotta nay us yet?

Speaker 1 (54:34):
No, Rob, I'm with you. I look, if you can't
have some fun and have some hope at this point
of the year, I mean, I don't know what you're doing.

Speaker 3 (54:42):
Well.

Speaker 4 (54:42):
The thing is like, this is a sport. The pretty
a lot of joy to a lot of people. So
why don't we, you know, do that.

Speaker 1 (54:49):
Some people don't like joy, Rob, some people like to
be angry. Yes. And by the way, and I'm not
even putting Wilson and Charlie maybe trying a little bit
into that.

Speaker 4 (54:57):
Anybody under but I understand realism versus optimism versus you know, pessimism.

Speaker 1 (55:03):
Yes, correct. And who was that comedian? Was it Richard
Lewis who was always like down all the time? Yes?

Speaker 3 (55:10):
Right, all of his humor was of negative humor by
the way, Richard Lewis, Yes, for sure, absolutely, But yeah,
I I I understand that. You know, those those guys
that are Richard Lewis's of our show.

Speaker 4 (55:22):
Well for what then? Out of.

Speaker 1 (55:27):
We're trying, I.

Speaker 4 (55:28):
Wanted to talk about, Well, you guys have thought all
the time.

Speaker 1 (55:31):
We try, man, we do.

Speaker 4 (55:33):
We do.

Speaker 1 (55:33):
Sometimes it'll make it easy on us, Rob, but we try.

Speaker 4 (55:37):
You guys are the hardest working dudes in the No other,
no other franchise has the internal media situation that you
guys have. You guys kill it every day. I love
your content at the league every day. Holy cow, you
guys are so informed.

Speaker 1 (55:52):
Thank you.

Speaker 4 (55:54):
I wanted to talk about defense. So it's we're talking
about personnel on defense at the time, and it's really
a lot to digest. But I think it's gonna be
pretty simple for this defense. Get after the quarterback and
be able to run you know, nickel cover two. If
we can do that, We're gonna get after it.

Speaker 1 (56:14):
Just don't allow the big plays over the top, right.

Speaker 4 (56:17):
Well, Ben, don't break yes, but it's gonna be personal specific.
And I'm worried about that Nickel corner spot spot.

Speaker 1 (56:24):
Really why Drew Phillips is pretty good? Why are you
worried about youre Phillips?

Speaker 4 (56:28):
Well, I just I worry about death. I worry about experience,
all right, you know that'll buy?

Speaker 1 (56:32):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (56:33):
Is it youth versus talent? And you know what, if
it's a bad matchup.

Speaker 1 (56:36):
For them, I would be more worried rob about their
I'd be worried about their second outside corner. To be
honest with you rather than slock the Yeah, I.

Speaker 3 (56:43):
Mean right now, after a debo and after Banks we
just discussed this, it looks like Flat slash Hawkins. Now,
you know, flot has trouble staying healthy and Hawkins has
been so raw.

Speaker 1 (56:57):
He's yet to really, you know, be what he might
be able to be.

Speaker 3 (57:01):
So Banks has improven that he's a no, you know, no,
Banks has been inconsistent as a starter. This is why,
And just give me half a second here, this is
why we've said this John the last couple of months
on the show, when I've said, if you could add
somebody else, I would not mind adding, you know, a
veteran corner, Like remember some years ago when they added

(57:23):
sense the Ball, they added Leon Hall. You know, if
you could add a veteran corner, you know, it wouldn't
be such a bad idea, just to have some.

Speaker 1 (57:32):
Who's the corner that eventually went to the Ravens. Isaac
Yaham is another guy that they added a corner with
the former Bronco player, correct, the former Bronco O and packer.

Speaker 3 (57:39):
I mean, you know, if you could get one of
those guys, you know, who's got some experience, may not
have a lot of mileage still left on his tires,
but if he's on the depth chart, he doesn't have
to play all the time.

Speaker 1 (57:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (57:53):
Well, if you played twelve plays a game, good, you're fine.

Speaker 2 (57:57):
Yeah, So I'd be all for that corner were the
quarterbacks can have too much time, So schematically, I think
that's a little bit of a variable in this defense.

Speaker 4 (58:08):
I don't know how we're gonna find our identity early
on against some of these powerhouse offenses. They're really gonna
try to pick us apart, and we're going to run
that soft zone and get you know, Ben, don't break
get killed down the field or short intermediate or just
on on meashure outs. It doesn't it doesn't matter.

Speaker 1 (58:27):
Well, Rob, I will say this, don't get after the quarterback.
I will say this, Rob, Well, we have seen in
Ota so far, and again we've literally had three We've
had two days of red zone where there's not a
lot of space anyway, but at least today, from what
we saw, there was not a ton of cushion, no outside,
So I think we've seen a little bit of a

(58:49):
higher level of aggression from the corners like they like you.
The interception today Belton breaking on a ball short outside
in the flat, and the other interception came on a
little slant that Lot played pretty tightly, deflected it up
in the air and he knocked into Nuban. So you
have not seen a bunch of these really short, easy
completions at least so far. Again, it's super early Ohta's

(59:11):
or OTAs, but at least we haven't.

Speaker 4 (59:12):
Seen that MS wide nine aggressive style defense, which I like,
but it's really hard to stop the run when you're
that wide. So if we can't do that on early downs, we're.

Speaker 1 (59:22):
Going to be No, that's true too.

Speaker 3 (59:24):
I'm real curious to see what Shane Bowen truly wants
to do.

Speaker 1 (59:28):
And then second we got to run.

Speaker 3 (59:31):
I can't wait to training camp because then we'll get
a chance to really see what he wants to run.

Speaker 6 (59:35):
Hey.

Speaker 1 (59:36):
Look, and there's an argument that if you have a
really good pass rush and you don't have to blitz
a lot play man right, because if you're getting people's
grill and the quarterback doesn't have much time you press,
that's the line. That's it. You know, then your cornerbacks
do have to cover for that long and it becomes
tougher on the offense if you're getting a pass rush
and you're not allowing quick, easy passes. You know, but

(59:57):
we won't know until they're actually able to start hitting.
Maybe the we're not gonna know till we get the
regular season games. He is, they gonna practice. They're gonna practice. Man,
We're not gonna right and even.

Speaker 3 (01:00:08):
In the preseason games they'll be v So we're not
gonna We're not We're not gonna see. You're right, John,
it's gonna it's gonna take the first couple of games
to really see what he wants to do, but I
would hope. I would hope, and he himself said this
to us at the end of last season that he's
learned more about this team and his staff. I hope
through that education he makes adjustments.

Speaker 1 (01:00:29):
A big year for him. They added a lot a
lot of players have been added on defense. There's a
lot of talent there, so there's no there's no talent
efficiency here. Like look, last year, you would a super
young secondary. You would a bunch of rookies and second
year guys defensive line too, in a very complicated defensive
scheme in the back end. So I get it, all right,

(01:00:49):
I get that all right. Big week coming your way
this week, guys on Big Book Golf Lie presented by Cadillac,
the official luxury vehicle the Giants. We're gonna do our
NFC East position group ranks. So it's gonna start with
me and Matt Sitak on Wednesday, and then Paul Lance
will do theirs on Thursday on Friday, and we will
keep track of those in the dock for the end

(01:01:10):
of the year. Last year, we all underrated Washington a
little bit. In years prior, we were pretty on top
of it, being the Eagles and Cowboys at the top,
so we'll see what it looks like this year. You
kind of rank each position group one through four with
the four division teams, and we'll see where that comes out.
So that'll be Wednesday and Friday. Tomorrow. We don't have

(01:01:30):
a topic yet. Paul and Matt will work that out.
I'm sure we could find something interesting to do Tomorrow.
There's an OTA, so we'll go overrapping OTA number five
and then the media here is for OTA on Thursday.
By the way, so a Thursday show will be the
one that gets pushed back to two thirty. So just
FYI on that, uh push back to thirty. Yeah, you

(01:01:51):
shocked me to two thirty part of me on Thursday,
so make sure you guys go check that out. Johnny
mac excell and work for Paul Tatino. I am John Schmult.
Thanks for joining us on Big Book Kick Off Live
presented by Cadillac, the official luxury vehicle of the Giants.
I had a fun conversation today, Paul. I think this
is a good good talk, good NFL talk, good drafts,
good Giants talk, excellent callers as usual, and we'll talk

(01:02:11):
to you guys on Tuesday