October 6, 2020 • 44 mins
Host Clifton Brown talks with Nate Boyer, Dr. Harry Edwards and Robert Griffin III about speaking out about race and the backlash that comes with it.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
When I covered my first NFL game in nineteen eighty two,
I noticed some people staring at me when I took
my seat in the press box in Miami. I knew
why they didn't expect to see a black reporter covering
an NFL game. I looked to my left, looked to
my right, and saw no other sports writers who looked
like me. Nearly forty years later, there have been many
(00:25):
changes in sports and society, but a lot hasn't changed.
Welcome to Black in the NFL. I'm your host, Clifton Brown.
In my forty years as a sportswriter, including nineteen years
(00:45):
at the New York Times, I've had conversations with legendary
athletes like Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods, and with today's
young stars like Lamar Jackson, now from Baltimore working for
the Ravens. I will examine what it's like to be
black in the NFL. Look. You get the experience from
many different angles and with many different voices. Seventy percent
of NFL players are black. The Ravens have a black
(01:07):
MVP quarterback, they hired the first black general manager Asik Newsome,
and they have one of the NFL's most black fan bases.
Yet race still impacts the NFL in unique and challenging ways,
whether it's noticed or unnoticed, spoken or unspoken. The time
has come for us to speak about it. Ravens owner
Steve Bischotti spoke up following the murder of George Floyd,
(01:30):
making it crystal clear that he understands why athletes black
and white can no longer be silent regarding racism and
social justice. To say, stick to sports to my players
is the worst possible thing that you can feel and say.
(01:51):
If my players, both white and black, don't speak out
about this injustice to their community, then there sellouts or
their hypocrites. If I don't defend my players, then I'm
(02:14):
the worst kind of hypocritic. This inaugural episode of Black
and the NFL is entitled shut Up in Play, and
my guests are Nate Boyer, doctor Harry Edwards, and Robert Griffin.
The third. Boyer is a white former Green Beret who
(02:39):
has met face to face with Colin Kaepernick to discuss
his protests during the national anthem. As someone who served
this country with honor, Boyer was skeptical at first about
Kaepernick's motives and methods but after their emotional face to
face discussion in twenty sixteen, Boris suggested to Kaepernick that
he should kneel, not sit during the anthem, setting the
(03:00):
stage for a former protest that continues today. If you're
white and don't understand why so many black NFL players
won't shut up and play, I encourage you to wait
one minute and listen to my interview with Boyer. Doctor
Edwards is a professor emeritus at the University of California,
and he has four Super Bowl rings through his work
with the San Francisco forty nine ers as a consultant
(03:21):
for more than forty years. This accomplished author and educator
has challenged the NFL to become more inclusive, and he
has advised athletes not to shut up and play. I
knew Doctor Edwards had a close relationship with Kaepernick, but
it's surprised the hell out of me that doctor Edwards
has a close relationship with NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell. And
then my final guest for today will be Robert Griffin
(03:44):
the Third, a former NFL Rookie of the Year who
has been one of the league's most outspoken players since
the murder of George Floyd, he feels obligated to use
his platform as an NFL player to denounce racism and
social injustice, even at the risk of losing endorsements. Let's
get started with my conversation with Boyer, who can talk
(04:04):
from a veteran's perspective about the right of NFL players
not to just shut up and play nay. Before you
had a conversation with Colin Kaepernick, you saw him sitting
on the bench and didn't fully understand what he was doing.
Can you talk about what you were thinking about at
(04:25):
that time before you talk to him when he first
heard that he was sitting for the anthem, I saw
this image of him sitting on the bench and Paul
I'd read with the headline maybe a sound bite of
you know, him saying, I'm not going to stand for
the flag of a country that oppresses black people and
people of color, and I, honestly I took that initially
is like, well, I've been to some pretty oppressive places
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in the world and spent a good amount of my
life there, you know, from the Middle East to Africa
to other places where there is a genocide, and a
totally different perspective and experience of what oppression is like,
and so I I almost felt offended that that word
was used. And I also had this kind of narrow
minded outlook, as if I am the one who has
(05:09):
sort of an authority on what the definition of oppression
is or what the definition of equality is, and of
course seeing that through a white person's lens. Regardless of
how to open minded we may think we are, it's
impossible to actually fully empathize and understand. You can try,
you can do your best, but unless you've lived that experience,
(05:30):
you don't know. And I didn't know. And I've heard
people say things like they know what it's like to
go to war that have never put on a military uniform,
and that's not fair either. And for me it was
a moment for myself, a big learning moment, teaching moment
through Colin and through so many others. And I'm still
learning and I'm still trying understanding that my perspective and
(05:51):
my emotions and feelings are purely based on my experiences.
And for me to pretend that I know what it's
like or someone else, how hard it is for somebody
else because I see them as a certain way or
in a certain light. It's just it's very unfair. Specifically,
why did you suggest that you thought it'd be a
good idea for him to kneel rather than sitting on
(06:12):
the bench. Colin asked me if I thought there was
another way that he could protest that wouldn't offend people
in the military. And this was at the end of
our conversation, and we both realized we had a lot
more in common than we had different. We had a
good amount of respect for one another. He understood when
I said, look, this is this is how a lot
of people from where I stand kind of take things
(06:33):
because we have a different relationship and experience when it
comes to those symbols and what they do represent to us,
and they aren't symbols of oppression and too much of
the world, they're symbols of pope, specifically the American flag.
And he understood that, and he said, but that's not
really an accurate portrayal in my eyes. And I was like,
that's fair, that's a fair viewpoint. He said, Look, I
(06:55):
don't want you to hurt. I have a great respect
for what you did, and when so many others did,
there's something else, like, do you think I could do
that wouldn't offend these people. I said, no, there's not.
No matter what you do, somebody's gonna be offended. That's
just the reality. But if you're asking my opinion, and
this is just Nate speaking, I don't speak for the
veteran community or anything like that. I said, I think
being alongside your teammates is the most important thing. I'm
(07:17):
not kind of sitting back by yourself isolated. I think
that is a great symbolism, I guess for our country,
for so many of us that aren't willing to listen
to someone with a different perspective. Because you and I
don't see eye to eye on everything, Colin, but we're
here talking and we're cool. I said, So, if you're
committed to not standing, if you're willing to be alongside
your teammates, I think kneeling is the only thing that
makes logistical sense really, and also it's you know, it's
(07:41):
a respectful gesture. I've never seen kneeling as anything but respectful.
You know, we kneel to pray and proposed to our
future spouse. And when a player on the field that's
hurting a football game, the players taking a knee out
of respect and when I go to all and to
visit my fallen brothers, I take a knee in front
of a grave respect. So I think that would be
a good option. And he actually agreed, and that night
(08:03):
he took a knee and I stood right next to him.
And you know, that's sort of where that all came from.
You believe that people can disagree on this issue yet
still find a way to work together. Why do you
think it's so hard for so many people to see
it that way. I don't have a good answer as
to why, but it is a very frustrating time in
(08:23):
that regard. I mean, I feel like we're just going
backwards as far as our growth as a human race
in a lot of ways, you know, And I think
it's so important that we do have different views. That's
why to me, America is great because we do have
those different views. That's what makes great teams on the
field and in the military, Like, that's what those are
the winners, that's how you win. And like we're just
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we're losing right now because we're not willing to sort
of swallow our pride and have a little bit of humility.
How much blowback do you get from white people particularly
white soldiers about you defending Colin's right to kneel. It's
definitely slowed quite a bit. But at the beginning I
(09:06):
got a lot and I understand it, you know, and
I don't I don't blame them, because if you've ever
carried a casket draping an American flag, which I've done
with one of your brothers inside, it's a tough thing
to just ignore that emotion. It comes back, and it
comes back in the form of anger. And anything that's
worth doing is not easy, especially a big change. It
(09:29):
comes with a lot of pain and a lot of
blowback and a lot of sacrifice. And so it's been
way less and less, especially over this year. So that's
something else for twenty twenty, that it's minimized the amount
of you know, the hate messages that I'm getting. I
still get them. I still get them every day from somebody,
you know, but the amount of it, and also like
the validity of it, like it's it hasn't really been
(09:51):
from people I respect so much as just like I mean, shoot,
it could be boxed half the time, I don't know.
And initially it was people I knew, people I fought
along side, and that really hurt. That's hard, but I
felt in my heart that I had to stick with
where I was at because because there was a lot
of people that were supportive as well. There's a lot
of people to come the other side of things that
were like, you're doing a good thing. I know it's
hard right now, just stay where you're at and don't
(10:13):
I don't give up on it. So that's been something
that's been interesting to sort of see the evolution of.
But it's definitely gotten better over the last two years. Nate,
I appreciate your time. More importantly, I appreciate your candor
and your courage regarding these issues and what you've said
and what you're doing. So God bless you moving forward
and all your endeavors. Thanks so much for coming on
(10:35):
black in the NFL. Thank you, brother. I really appreciate
y'all have Man, what you guys are doing. I'm just
trying my best and I know you are too. Amen
today take care, So yeah, all right. Next guest is
doctor Harry Edwards, who has decades of perspective about what
athletes risk when they don't shut up and play. He
(10:57):
organized one of the most famous protests in sports history
Tommy Smith and John Carlos raising their fists after winning
Olympic medals in nineteen sixty eight. The United States leads
the Olympics and medal awards and is just about supreme
in the sprint races thanks to men like Tommy Smith
and John Carlos. Yesterday, they came in first and third
(11:18):
in the two hundred meter dash and then stood on
the victory platform with bald heads, wearing black socks and
gloves and a racial protest. He has worked closely with
San Francisco forty nine quarterback Colin Kaepernick, who rocked the
sports landscape with his kneeling during the national anthem in
twenty sixteen. Dot Edwards, I think few people in the
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world have your kind of historical perspective on the issues
of athletes and social justice. Now. Roger Goodell released a
video saying black lives matter after the George Floyd incident,
which was a clear reversal from the league stands. A
few years when CAP was was protesting, we the National
(12:08):
Football League condemned racism in the systematic oppression of black people.
We the National Football League, admit we were wrong for
not listening to NFL players earlier and encourage all to
speak out and peacefully protests. We the National Football League
believe black lives matter. I was curious you reaction to
(12:31):
that and what that means or didn't mean for the
long term future of the NFL dealing with social issues.
First of all, the first time Cap sat on the
cooler in that preseason game, I went into the locker
room after San Francisco far de Ninas and got his
jersey and his shoes, had a moutograph him and I
sent him to Lonny Bunch, who was then curate of
the National Museum of African American History and Culture, and
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I told him to put him in the chaos right
between our league and Smith and Carlos, because Kaepernick was
going to be the face of this generation of athletes.
And Lynne said, well, how do you know? And my
response was, because the analysis is correct. I knew exactly
and precisely where that was headed. I also talked to
(13:14):
Roger on a regular basis. Troy Vinson and Roger Goodell.
They are imminently decent people. Roger is an individual who
was at the helm of the ship of the NFL.
But there are thirty two guys behind him wearing captain's
hats and all of them are talking at the same time.
He's in a tough position, but that's what they pay
him to do. So I don't have any sympathy for him,
but I do try to advise him in terms of
(13:35):
what I think are creditable steps that he can take
to deal with this situation. When he came out with
this statement, he did not consult me. But on the
other hand, sometimes he uses me like a lawyer. He
doesn't come to me before he commits the murder. He
comes to me after he commits the murder and say,
how do I claim this mess up? So so this
is one of those instances where that would have been
(13:56):
a statement that I would not have advised him to make.
And if he was to make a statement, he should
have used Kaepernick's name. He should have came out and said,
I understand the situation. I'm the commissioner of the league.
I do not hire players. I think that Kaepernick should
be in the league. Mouthing black lives matter doesn't mean
you get it. White people will get black lives matter
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when they've changed the system, when we've shifted from the
pain of the black community to the problems embedded in
the human and institutional relationships in the white community, and
those changes have been made and they can look back
and say, wow, we get it. That was some six
stuff we were involved in. But until then, just mouthing
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me too doesn't mean they get it. And when you
mouth me too and don't even use the name of
the individual who is most central to the situation you're addressing,
like Kaepernick, then you really don't get it. We're in
the same situation now that we've been in since twenty
seventeen when Kaepernick was not picked up by a team.
(14:58):
Kapp is still on the street. All of the PSAs,
all of the sympathetic statements, all of the money they
may play at the social justice issues won't mean very much.
In point of fact, it will stand and start contradiction
to the reality, if not in abject hypocrisy. As long
as Kaepernick is on the street, it's a very simple
(15:23):
matter to put Kaepernick on a roster. They are recruiting
quarterbacks out of retirement villages. They're stacking money on tables
in front of guys who have retired to bring them
back because they can take a snap. And there's Kaepernick
on the street, and so at the end of the day,
there's no rectifying this gross contradiction. Can you talk about
(15:47):
what it was like for black athletes in the nineteen
sixties and kind of compare that to where black athletes
and athletes in general are now. Well, I think we
have to understand that any part a generation of athletes
is really inextricably connected to the evolution of blacks in
sport and American society. So that first wave of black
(16:10):
athletes with Jesse Owens and Joe Lewis and Paul Robeson
and Jack Johnson who achieved most of their respect as
athletes and in the national arena. After that was the
post World War two years of Jackie Robinson, Larry Dobe
in baseball, of Kenny Washington would have Strode, Bill Willis
and Marion Modley, and football most certainly of Errol Lloyd,
(16:31):
Chuck Cooper and Sweetwater Clifton and basketball where they were
struggling for access, framed up by a civil rights movement
which was trying to break down segregation, not to integrate,
but to desegregate, because the thought was that any change
would be both ways, that that'd be whites moving into
black institutions and hotels and restaurants and so forth, and
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Blacks moving into white institutions hotels, so it wasn't to
integrate as much as to dcgate. Of course, that move
turned out to be one way, and what happened was
that there was a predatory inclusion where they brought the
black athletes and they didn't bring into black coaches and
managers our ownership, for example, in the negro leagues, and
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by nineteen fifty six, when Jackie Robinson retired, the negro
Leagues had collapsed. The black colleges could no longer recruit
blue chip black athletes because it was a predatory inclusion
that was involved and what was literally a corporate plantation
system of sports organization that brought about the rebellion in
the third wave of black athlete revote, which was Tommy
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Smith and John Carlos, Bill Russell, Jim Brown. Most certainly
Arthur asked Kurt Flood, who said, I'm just an eighty
thousand dollars year slave when he challenged the rule that
allowed owners in baseball to trade players away without any
safe or in point of fact. And they noticed, so
everything is kind of built up on everything else that
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third wave, which challenged the dignity and respect level that
black athletes had even in the desegregated sports environment, was
critical to the fourth wave, which came along with Kaepernick.
Kapp realized that with the Trayvon Martin murder, with the
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Mike Brown murder, with the other murders that occurred on
the cover of the Badge, the only reason it was
him rather than Mike Brown, The only reason it was
him rather than George Floyd, the only reason it was
him rather than Rachiard Brooks is that he was not there.
And so again, this intersection of sport, race and society
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has generated generation after generation of athlete rebellion. And now
we're into a fifth wave where we're no longer talking
about individual athletes like Smith and Carlos. We see entire
teams of athletes leveraging their power. And what we saw
in the bubble from the Milwaukee Bucks, what we saw
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in terms of what's happening with baseball in Major League
Soccer and the WNBA, was absolutely inevitable and unavoidable. Do
you think that black athletes feel the pain now that
those athletes of the past have when it comes to
what they're seeing happening in our streets, happening with people
(19:30):
and being murdered, and then things that we've seen transpire
in twenty twenty. Do you sense the same pain from
athletes that you did back in the sixties when you
first started your work. Well, pain is a very very
personal thing. That's one that's almost undefinable. One person's pain
another person may not even see it like that. But
what I do know is there is a sense of vulnerability.
(19:52):
As I stated, these athletes realize that the only reason
it was George Floyd and not them is that they
were not there. At the end of the day, it's
not so much the pain as the vulnerability. So what
these athletes are now saying is that we must move
beyond this focus on black pain, which generation after generation
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has caused us to recycle back to these protest movements.
We need to focus on changing relationships within white society,
within its human and institutional relationships that generate that pain.
And this has always been a major problem because as
soon as the emphasis has shifted in the past from
(20:34):
black pain to white institutional problems, whites have begun to
back up and shy away because they don't want to
deal with the problem of white supremacy. They don't want
to deal with the problem of white privilege. They don't
want to deal with the problem of white inordinate power.
We're not just talking about the pain that everybody is
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so empathetic with in terms of Brian Matela and George
Floyd and race Start Brooks. We're talking about attacking the
problems in the white community that generate that pain. When
we begin to demand, as these athletes are, a change
in the institutional relationships and the human relationships in white
(21:15):
society that generate that pain, you're going to get a backlash.
And that's when you're going to begin to find new
pressure on these athletes in terms of their demands. Speaking
of backlash, Colin Kaepernick certainly got that and more when
he took his stance or took his knee. I should
more accurately say, what's your reaction to the backlash that
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he took and in any way were you surprised or
did that turn out differently than you thought it would
when he made that stance, It turned out exactly and
precisely the way I thought it would. I talked to
kap about what the likelihood would be. I mean if
you go back to the first wave of athlete activism,
Jack Johnson was literally run out of the country on
the law that was specifically geared to capture him, the
(21:58):
Man Act. Prossguna state lines for elicited purposes with a woman,
and he wound up spending two years in jail. Even
Joe Lewis and Jess Rains were hounded for literally years
decades by the Internal Revenue Service. Paul Robson was declared
an Auwellian non person. Even Jackie Robinson finally said in
(22:18):
his autobiography, I can't stand up for the anthem or
the pledge of allegiance because I realized I never had
it made. And of course Tommy Smith and John Carlos
were banished from amateur track and field for life. Muhammad
Ali was kicked out of his boxing profession in the
prime of his career. This kind of retaliation is traditional
(22:43):
within the American system of corporate plantationism. When it comes
down to African American athletes, especially those who have the commitment,
the intelligence, the courage to stand up and say we
as a society are better than this. I take seriously
that notion of this being the land of the free
(23:05):
and the home of the brave, with liberty and justice
for all. I believe in that, and I'm willing to
put everything on the line to demonstrate and stand behind
that belief. And America's response has been and you will pay,
as far as we're concerned, the ultimate price in terms
of your career as an athlete. What happened to Cab
is traditional, and I think that he was ready for it.
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It was not something that he would have welcomed, It
was not something that he would have desired, but it
was something that he most certainly understood was part of
the deal. Now that NFL players have seen what happened
to Cab, but they seem more determined than ever collectively
black players and white players to take a stand and
(23:48):
do something about some of the things going on in
this country. Do you think the outcome would be different
this time? And what advice would you give to these
athletes who clearly want to do more to bring this
country together into effect real change. First of all, there
is some degree of security in numbers. You're looking at
team efforts in this regard, I mean baseball, Major League Soccer,
(24:13):
the NBA, the NFL. I think you're more likely to
see team efforts and the whole issue of protests is great,
but at some point you have to move from protests
into programs if you're going to achieve progress. And I
think that this is where it's kind of falling off
at You have teams that are protesting, but what are
(24:35):
they going to do? That becomes the issue how do
they get all of the stakeholders involved. Now, when you
begin to talk about barcotting games, which is why I
call for a barcott of the nineteen sixty eight Olympics,
you get all of the stakeholders involved in those games
involved in next steps. You get owners, you get sponsors,
(24:58):
you get the television works, you even get organized fan groups.
You get cities, economic powers in the local area where
the stadiums are located, where they make their money. You
get all of them around the table and talking seriously
about putting pressure on the district attorney, putting pressure on
the prosecutors about some of these murders that are taking
(25:22):
place under cover of the badge. When you begin to
talk about boycotts, you're sending a message because there will
be no business as usual until we get that underweight.
Kneeling is a form of protest. You're making a statement.
I'm not against anybody making a statement. Once the Milwaukee
(25:43):
Bucks essentially had a workstop, it's followed by the rest
of the league. Athletes are sending a message to everybody
who was a stakeholder in that walkout. A message has
been sent. It comes down to, yeah, I get it,
but what are you going to do? What are you
going to do? We have to move from protests and
(26:04):
making a statement to progress, and the way you get
there is to get all the stakeholders around the table.
But you send them a message letting them know that
you have a role in this. Doctor Edwards, I want
to thank you so much for your time, for your
life's work, for your commitment and all that you were
(26:25):
brought to the table. Thank you so much. Thank you
so much for having men. Let's welcome Ravens quarterback Robert Griffin,
the third to black in the NFL. He's a former
Heisman Trophy winner and a former NFL Rookie of the Year.
His parents were both sergeants in the United States Army.
(26:46):
Robert was born in Japan. His family moved often, spending
time in Washington State, South Carolina, and New Orleans before
settling in Texas. During his high school years, Robert has
been exposed to many cultures in an environments, giving him
an eclectic view of the world, and over the past
several years, he has become one of the Ravens most
outspoken players on race and society. Athletes who refuse to
(27:10):
shut up and play like Robert are getting more support
from teams and fans to speak out on social issues.
According to an August survey conducted by ESPN, seventy one
percent of fans support athletes speaking out and forty four
percent strongly supported it. Nearly half of the fans surveyed
so that they are more likely to support teams and
(27:31):
athlete who speak out than they were last year. Robert
is determined to be on the right side of history
when it comes to race and social justice. Let's hear
from him. Welcome to the podcast. Obviously, fans know a
lot about you as an athlete, but I wanted to
(27:52):
start off first with kind of your background. I know
you come from a military family, You've lived a lot
of places growing up. How do you think that has
shaped your views or did shape your views as far
as raised social issues and things like that having such
a background living so many places. Yeah, I don't know
if a lot of people know this, but my parents
(28:14):
combined served thirty four years in the military. So I
was born in Japan, moved around a bunch, lived in
Washington State, New Orleans, Louisiana, South Carolina, and then finally
settled in Texas and Conference Cove, Texas. So I was
able to live life in many different areas with many
(28:34):
different ethnic backgrounds. You know. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to
live the suburban lifestyle, but I was able to grow
up in the projects, to grow up in the inner
cities and see how those different dynamics play out. And
sometimes those weren't always predominantly black communities, you know, some
of those communities are also predominantly white. So I was
(28:57):
able to learn how to adapt in different situations. My
wife tells me all the time when I get around
my family from New Orleans to five before, she says, man,
you start talking different and I don't know who you are,
Like what does that mean? I'm like, I don't know,
but they know. And you just learn how to adapt
in different situations. And unfortunately in America that's just not
(29:21):
the case. Everybody doesn't get that opportunity to grow up
in different communities and experience different cultural norms. So that
was has set me up really well and it's allowed
me to be a great leader also in football, because
the NFL's a melting pot. You know, I know that
the league is predominantly black, but you get all types
of races and creeds coming into the locker room, and
(29:41):
you have to be able to communicate with those guys effectively,
not just as a quarterback, but just as a person.
Let them know that you understand what they're going through
and understand some of the things that maybe someone who's
never experienced that would you As an athlete, Robert have
found your voice speaking out publicly about really variety of things,
almost anything seemingly that you want to speak out about.
(30:04):
Some athletes, even though they have a lot of opinions
and a lot to say, don't say it publicly. Where
do you think you learn to have the confidence or presidence,
however you want to praise it, to have such a
powerable voice. The guys who don't have the voice yet
and are afraid to express it. There's a big reason
for that, and it's job security, right and other guys
(30:24):
weren't kneeling in twenty sixteen and twenty seventeen because they knew,
based off what team they were on or what community
they were in where their team was represented, they might
not have a job the next day if they took
that knee. I think what is happening today by virtue
of the coronavirus, people became more aware of some of
the things that the minority communities are having to deal
(30:46):
with when it comes to inequality, police batality, and racism,
and I think that has made it more acceptable for
guys to express themselves in a manner like myself to
bring attention to those things. I'm a that has typically
not spoken out as much as I have in the
past year or two, I've done more things in the
(31:08):
community behind the scenes because I felt like that was
more effective. Sometimes people speak out because they want that attention,
they wanted to be about them, and I never wanted
to be that guy. So I felt like if I
went into the community and made an impact to try
to fix some of the issues that were going on
in those communities, it was more impactful than just saying
something on Twitter or Instagram or Facebook and then not
(31:30):
doing anything. So this year I got to spend a
lot more time at home with the family because the coronavirus,
we didn't have OTAs or mini camp and I just
tried to think, maybe now is the right time to
not just do it behind the scenes and in the community,
but also to use the platform that I have on
social media and the millions of followers that I have
there too, to be outspoken and not be afraid of
(31:53):
any negative backlash or job security issues. And that's the
main thing that I think guys are afraid of. They're
afraid of the backlash, and now what's going on. It's like,
why not, right, why not taking me during the national
anthem to show not just the black community, but all
communities in America that you are in this fight with them.
(32:16):
It's time for us to be the country that we
always say we are right. We send troops all over
the world to solve everybody else's problems, but we just
want to turn a blind eye to the ones we
have right in front of us. So I think that
kind of really really dug deep with me because my
parents served and they sacrifice for this country for people
(32:38):
to be able to protest, for people to point out
the wrongs that are going on and what has been
going on in our nation for so long has to
come to an end. Yeah, they speaking of your parents,
you said they're both military, so I'm curious, you know,
are they against players kneeling or what's the feeling on that.
And you've also mentioned your wife. She's not from this country,
so how does she view all that's going on here?
(33:01):
And the conversation with you guys may have I'm not
gonna lie to you. We could have an entire podcast
about the fact that my wife is not from this
country and just some of the things that happens here
and just how mind boggling that is, not just for her,
but just for people who live abroad and they look
at America as this. You know, we're a world leader,
(33:22):
where this powerhouse, and we have these issues that are
that are easily fixable if we just acknowledge them right
and if we just put in a plan of action
to eliminate them. As far as my parents, I'm not
gonna lie. Mom and dad initially didn't want me to
be as vocal because I'm a black man in America.
They didn't want me to receive negative backlash and after
(33:46):
kind of explaining to them, you know what I said
earlier in this podcast about you know, the time is now,
like why not do that? I think they understood that
and have supported me through it. They became understanding extremely fast.
I think it was after the video that we did
with the Ravens and I put that video out. I
(34:06):
think it was six or seven minutes long, straight just
talking to the camera. I sent that to my dad
and my mom. Our legislators abandon us, our press vilifies us.
We're proud to be black, and we're going to continue
to be proud to be black until the day we died,
and that's all we have to say. They called me
(34:29):
immediately and said, wow, that's powerful. You need to share
that everywhere. And I think that's when they were on board.
What did you think when you saw that video, Robber.
I mean, obviously a lot of players and coaches were
in it, a lot of people from the organizations d Bashadi.
When people were first talking about it, no one knew
exactly how is going to turn out and what it
(34:50):
would look like. What did you think, as being a
member of the team being in the video? Just courage
to hear your thoughts about what you thought of it
after you first saw it. I thought was very powerful
and I think we were one of the first teams
to get it done and lead the way for the
rest of the league. As far as coming out with
those types of videos and statements, My thought was, Wow,
(35:12):
Steve Bashatti, it was on one percent his call. He
didn't have to do that, right. We talked about it,
the unaffected have to be just as outraged as the
affected in order for a change to actually come to fruition,
and I thought that was a big moment of that.
So I feel like the video went went a long
way to actually making our own organization even closer because
(35:38):
people were having to hear stories that you know, we
normally don't tell. I don't just go to the castle,
as we call it. I don't just go to the
castle and like tell horror stories about what happened to
me when I was growing up like that. That's not
what it is. You go there for a job. You
go there to be the best player you can be
and help the team win the team. The team the
team well, I think our team in general, just players, coaches, administrative,
(36:00):
marketing side, the media side has grown so much closer
because they've had to sit down and listen to these stories,
and I think that's the attention that needs to be
brought to them. And now we're going out and making
actions and making things happen. As powerful as that was
and as many people were involved, as you know, not
everybody's on board with the things that we're talking about.
(36:23):
And obviously you get reaction online that's negative. How do
you handle that? Anything that you say, there's going to
be detractors, there's going to be naysayers. My job. I
feel like our job is to educate, its to educate
and not get frustrated. And I think that's where we're at.
Some people are clinging to ideals that may be out
(36:47):
of touch in today's world. And some people think that
if they support Black Lives Matter, they are tearing themselves down.
And that's not what it is. Your supportive Black Lives
Matter or or the black community, or you know, the
fight against injustice or racism, that's not pulling you down
as a as a white person in America or any
(37:09):
other creed. You're really just trying to build up the
black community so that everybody can be on an equal
playing field. All lives can't matter if black lives don't,
and black lives in America have inherently shown up to
not matter in certain situations with police brutality, mass incarceration.
I can keep going, but I'll stop. So I try
(37:31):
to use this analogy that if the house is on
fire and you're the fire department, you go put out
the fire at that house. You don't drive down the
street and spray water on every house on the block
on your way to the house that's on fire. Right
and the house that's on fire right now is the
black community. That house is on fire. We have to
(37:53):
put out that fire to be able to build that
community up so that it can be in good standing
with the rest of the house, the houses in the community.
It's about human rights and doing the right thing for everybody.
Nobody deserves to get shot seven times in the back
in front of the children. It's not even just that,
it's at what point do you say enough is enough?
At what point are we going to hold police officers
(38:16):
who do step out of line accountable? Because not all
police are bad. Not every story that we all have
from encounters with police officers are horror stories. But there's
a few bad apples it's just about accountability. And that's
where we were with the Ravens when we talked about
getting the vote for the Policing Act in the House
(38:38):
and in the Senate. When you sign up to protect
and serve, you got to protect and serve, You're not
signing up to just kill people. You're not signing up
to shoot unarmed black people. When you see some of
the things that happened, like with the Milwaukee Bucks not
taking the four or four playoff game, and how that
(38:59):
kind I brought everyone to the table. I talked to
the doctor Harry Edwards on this podcast and he said
he was really thrilled basically to see the Bucks take
action like that because it forced everyone to come to
the table, the owners, the league itself, the players, the sponsors.
Do you feel that athletes, and I'll particularly focus on
(39:22):
NFL athletes since you're an NFL player, watched that and said, wow,
you know, like if things don't change, if some of
the promises being made aren't kept, that this could be
something that you know, we could do down the line
if necessary. Although the Ravens we didn't decide to cancel practice,
(39:42):
numerous NFL teams canceled practice I believe the NBA canceled
games for two days, and some people would look at
that and say, Okay, well, what did you really do.
Well at the end of the day, you made people
talk about it. You made people talk about why they
missed those games, why these teams canceled practice. I mean,
we had a three hour meeting about it after practice,
(40:06):
something I've never experienced in my entire life at any level, college,
high school, not pro any of it, which was phenomenal
to me because we had that conversation a couple of
months ago, and the first thing that we said when
we got in there was here we are again. Here
we are again having the same conversation, but it was
a more in depth conversation and we were in person,
(40:27):
we weren't via zoom, and it was it was a
powerful conversation. So seeing them do that, it lets everyone
know that if things don't change, and these things continue
to happen and we don't do anything to implement a
reform of it, then we're just not going to play.
And I think NFL players are in line with that.
(40:51):
No one wants to miss games, right Primarily, guys were
driven to win championships, right that it's like ingrained in
us to win when when and but even more than that,
guys want to take care of their families, right, So
we want to play because I want to be able
to take care of my kids. I want to be
able to take care of my wife. I want to
(41:11):
be able to, you know, honestly pay my bills. Right.
But at the same time, by us playing or not playing,
we control the narrative. So I think that's where players
are right now. We feel like we are having some
positive reform and I feel like the NBA has kind
of led the charge on that. But as NFL players,
(41:34):
all eyes are going to be on us, and we're
the most popular sport in America. So if things don't
start to change, then we're gonna have to change, and
I think the players are prepared to do that, even
if it's going to be a very hard decision that
ends up affecting their bottom line. Robert, great talking to
you as always right. Love. The way that you're moving
(41:58):
a conversation, Alonge is just you're showing who you are
for sure, And definitely I think this is a time
where we're gonna look back those of those who are
fortunate enough to look back and look at twenty twenty
is a time that was important for this country. Yeah,
thank you for being on Black in the NFL. Best
(42:20):
of luck this season to you and to obviously to
the Baltimore Ravens, and keep on keeping on. I appreciate
your brother. Let's let's be on the right side of history.
That's what I would tell everybody. Be on the right
side of history, and let's make this change out, all right,
Take care of man. Appreciate your brother. God bless This
(42:42):
concludes episode one of Black in the NFL. If you
still think athletes should shut up and play, think about this.
In America, a white Green Beret like Nate Boyer can
meet with an outspoken athlete like Colin Kaepernick and they
can both grow from the experience. In America, a courageous
(43:03):
man like doctor Harry Edwards can encourage athletes to raise
their fists on Olympic podium, and fifty years later he
can still challenge athletes to raise their consciousness. In America,
Robert Griffin the Third can pursue the career he wants,
marry who he wants, and speak out when he wants.
That's the America I want. Do you join us for
(43:33):
the next episode of Black in the NFL, entitled to
Neil or Not to Kneel. Our guests will include Ravens
defensive players Calias Campbell and Matthew Judan, who both knelt
during the National Anthem in London in twenty seventeen when
Judan was with the Ravens and Klaas Campbell was playing
for Jacksonville. We'll hear from other voices in that episode
(43:54):
as well. This podcast was produced by Blue Wire. Noah
Everhard produced and edited the show. Ryan Mink, Michelle Andres,
Peter Moses, and Jonathan Yales were executive producers. Until we
Talk again, Be safe and Be Blessed.
When I covered my first NFL game in nineteen eighty two,
I noticed some people staring at me when I took
my seat in the press box in Miami. I knew
why they didn't expect to see a black reporter covering
an NFL game. I looked to my left, looked to
my right, and saw no other sports writers who looked
like me. Nearly forty years later, there have been many
(00:25):
changes in sports and society, but a lot hasn't changed.
Welcome to Black in the NFL. I'm your host, Clifton Brown.
In my forty years as a sportswriter, including nineteen years
(00:45):
at the New York Times, I've had conversations with legendary
athletes like Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods, and with today's
young stars like Lamar Jackson, now from Baltimore working for
the Ravens. I will examine what it's like to be
black in the NFL. Look. You get the experience from
many different angles and with many different voices. Seventy percent
of NFL players are black. The Ravens have a black
(01:07):
MVP quarterback, they hired the first black general manager Asik Newsome,
and they have one of the NFL's most black fan bases.
Yet race still impacts the NFL in unique and challenging ways,
whether it's noticed or unnoticed, spoken or unspoken. The time
has come for us to speak about it. Ravens owner
Steve Bischotti spoke up following the murder of George Floyd,
(01:30):
making it crystal clear that he understands why athletes black
and white can no longer be silent regarding racism and
social justice. To say, stick to sports to my players
is the worst possible thing that you can feel and say.
(01:51):
If my players, both white and black, don't speak out
about this injustice to their community, then there sellouts or
their hypocrites. If I don't defend my players, then I'm
(02:14):
the worst kind of hypocritic. This inaugural episode of Black
and the NFL is entitled shut Up in Play, and
my guests are Nate Boyer, doctor Harry Edwards, and Robert Griffin.
The third. Boyer is a white former Green Beret who
(02:39):
has met face to face with Colin Kaepernick to discuss
his protests during the national anthem. As someone who served
this country with honor, Boyer was skeptical at first about
Kaepernick's motives and methods but after their emotional face to
face discussion in twenty sixteen, Boris suggested to Kaepernick that
he should kneel, not sit during the anthem, setting the
(03:00):
stage for a former protest that continues today. If you're
white and don't understand why so many black NFL players
won't shut up and play, I encourage you to wait
one minute and listen to my interview with Boyer. Doctor
Edwards is a professor emeritus at the University of California,
and he has four Super Bowl rings through his work
with the San Francisco forty nine ers as a consultant
(03:21):
for more than forty years. This accomplished author and educator
has challenged the NFL to become more inclusive, and he
has advised athletes not to shut up and play. I
knew Doctor Edwards had a close relationship with Kaepernick, but
it's surprised the hell out of me that doctor Edwards
has a close relationship with NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell. And
then my final guest for today will be Robert Griffin
(03:44):
the Third, a former NFL Rookie of the Year who
has been one of the league's most outspoken players since
the murder of George Floyd, he feels obligated to use
his platform as an NFL player to denounce racism and
social injustice, even at the risk of losing endorsements. Let's
get started with my conversation with Boyer, who can talk
(04:04):
from a veteran's perspective about the right of NFL players
not to just shut up and play nay. Before you
had a conversation with Colin Kaepernick, you saw him sitting
on the bench and didn't fully understand what he was doing.
Can you talk about what you were thinking about at
(04:25):
that time before you talk to him when he first
heard that he was sitting for the anthem, I saw
this image of him sitting on the bench and Paul
I'd read with the headline maybe a sound bite of
you know, him saying, I'm not going to stand for
the flag of a country that oppresses black people and
people of color, and I, honestly I took that initially
is like, well, I've been to some pretty oppressive places
(04:47):
in the world and spent a good amount of my
life there, you know, from the Middle East to Africa
to other places where there is a genocide, and a
totally different perspective and experience of what oppression is like,
and so I I almost felt offended that that word
was used. And I also had this kind of narrow
minded outlook, as if I am the one who has
(05:09):
sort of an authority on what the definition of oppression
is or what the definition of equality is, and of
course seeing that through a white person's lens. Regardless of
how to open minded we may think we are, it's
impossible to actually fully empathize and understand. You can try,
you can do your best, but unless you've lived that experience,
(05:30):
you don't know. And I didn't know. And I've heard
people say things like they know what it's like to
go to war that have never put on a military uniform,
and that's not fair either. And for me it was
a moment for myself, a big learning moment, teaching moment
through Colin and through so many others. And I'm still
learning and I'm still trying understanding that my perspective and
(05:51):
my emotions and feelings are purely based on my experiences.
And for me to pretend that I know what it's
like or someone else, how hard it is for somebody
else because I see them as a certain way or
in a certain light. It's just it's very unfair. Specifically,
why did you suggest that you thought it'd be a
good idea for him to kneel rather than sitting on
(06:12):
the bench. Colin asked me if I thought there was
another way that he could protest that wouldn't offend people
in the military. And this was at the end of
our conversation, and we both realized we had a lot
more in common than we had different. We had a
good amount of respect for one another. He understood when
I said, look, this is this is how a lot
of people from where I stand kind of take things
(06:33):
because we have a different relationship and experience when it
comes to those symbols and what they do represent to us,
and they aren't symbols of oppression and too much of
the world, they're symbols of pope, specifically the American flag.
And he understood that, and he said, but that's not
really an accurate portrayal in my eyes. And I was like,
that's fair, that's a fair viewpoint. He said, Look, I
(06:55):
don't want you to hurt. I have a great respect
for what you did, and when so many others did,
there's something else, like, do you think I could do
that wouldn't offend these people. I said, no, there's not.
No matter what you do, somebody's gonna be offended. That's
just the reality. But if you're asking my opinion, and
this is just Nate speaking, I don't speak for the
veteran community or anything like that. I said, I think
being alongside your teammates is the most important thing. I'm
(07:17):
not kind of sitting back by yourself isolated. I think
that is a great symbolism, I guess for our country,
for so many of us that aren't willing to listen
to someone with a different perspective. Because you and I
don't see eye to eye on everything, Colin, but we're
here talking and we're cool. I said, So, if you're
committed to not standing, if you're willing to be alongside
your teammates, I think kneeling is the only thing that
makes logistical sense really, and also it's you know, it's
(07:41):
a respectful gesture. I've never seen kneeling as anything but respectful.
You know, we kneel to pray and proposed to our
future spouse. And when a player on the field that's
hurting a football game, the players taking a knee out
of respect and when I go to all and to
visit my fallen brothers, I take a knee in front
of a grave respect. So I think that would be
a good option. And he actually agreed, and that night
(08:03):
he took a knee and I stood right next to him.
And you know, that's sort of where that all came from.
You believe that people can disagree on this issue yet
still find a way to work together. Why do you
think it's so hard for so many people to see
it that way. I don't have a good answer as
to why, but it is a very frustrating time in
(08:23):
that regard. I mean, I feel like we're just going
backwards as far as our growth as a human race
in a lot of ways, you know, And I think
it's so important that we do have different views. That's
why to me, America is great because we do have
those different views. That's what makes great teams on the
field and in the military, Like, that's what those are
the winners, that's how you win. And like we're just
(08:46):
we're losing right now because we're not willing to sort
of swallow our pride and have a little bit of humility.
How much blowback do you get from white people particularly
white soldiers about you defending Colin's right to kneel. It's
definitely slowed quite a bit. But at the beginning I
(09:06):
got a lot and I understand it, you know, and
I don't I don't blame them, because if you've ever
carried a casket draping an American flag, which I've done
with one of your brothers inside, it's a tough thing
to just ignore that emotion. It comes back, and it
comes back in the form of anger. And anything that's
worth doing is not easy, especially a big change. It
(09:29):
comes with a lot of pain and a lot of
blowback and a lot of sacrifice. And so it's been
way less and less, especially over this year. So that's
something else for twenty twenty, that it's minimized the amount
of you know, the hate messages that I'm getting. I
still get them. I still get them every day from somebody,
you know, but the amount of it, and also like
the validity of it, like it's it hasn't really been
(09:51):
from people I respect so much as just like I mean, shoot,
it could be boxed half the time, I don't know.
And initially it was people I knew, people I fought
along side, and that really hurt. That's hard, but I
felt in my heart that I had to stick with
where I was at because because there was a lot
of people that were supportive as well. There's a lot
of people to come the other side of things that
were like, you're doing a good thing. I know it's
hard right now, just stay where you're at and don't
(10:13):
I don't give up on it. So that's been something
that's been interesting to sort of see the evolution of.
But it's definitely gotten better over the last two years. Nate,
I appreciate your time. More importantly, I appreciate your candor
and your courage regarding these issues and what you've said
and what you're doing. So God bless you moving forward
and all your endeavors. Thanks so much for coming on
(10:35):
black in the NFL. Thank you, brother. I really appreciate
y'all have Man, what you guys are doing. I'm just
trying my best and I know you are too. Amen
today take care, So yeah, all right. Next guest is
doctor Harry Edwards, who has decades of perspective about what
athletes risk when they don't shut up and play. He
(10:57):
organized one of the most famous protests in sports history
Tommy Smith and John Carlos raising their fists after winning
Olympic medals in nineteen sixty eight. The United States leads
the Olympics and medal awards and is just about supreme
in the sprint races thanks to men like Tommy Smith
and John Carlos. Yesterday, they came in first and third
(11:18):
in the two hundred meter dash and then stood on
the victory platform with bald heads, wearing black socks and
gloves and a racial protest. He has worked closely with
San Francisco forty nine quarterback Colin Kaepernick, who rocked the
sports landscape with his kneeling during the national anthem in
twenty sixteen. Dot Edwards, I think few people in the
(11:46):
world have your kind of historical perspective on the issues
of athletes and social justice. Now. Roger Goodell released a
video saying black lives matter after the George Floyd incident,
which was a clear reversal from the league stands. A
few years when CAP was was protesting, we the National
(12:08):
Football League condemned racism in the systematic oppression of black people.
We the National Football League, admit we were wrong for
not listening to NFL players earlier and encourage all to
speak out and peacefully protests. We the National Football League
believe black lives matter. I was curious you reaction to
(12:31):
that and what that means or didn't mean for the
long term future of the NFL dealing with social issues.
First of all, the first time Cap sat on the
cooler in that preseason game, I went into the locker
room after San Francisco far de Ninas and got his
jersey and his shoes, had a moutograph him and I
sent him to Lonny Bunch, who was then curate of
the National Museum of African American History and Culture, and
(12:54):
I told him to put him in the chaos right
between our league and Smith and Carlos, because Kaepernick was
going to be the face of this generation of athletes.
And Lynne said, well, how do you know? And my
response was, because the analysis is correct. I knew exactly
and precisely where that was headed. I also talked to
(13:14):
Roger on a regular basis. Troy Vinson and Roger Goodell.
They are imminently decent people. Roger is an individual who
was at the helm of the ship of the NFL.
But there are thirty two guys behind him wearing captain's
hats and all of them are talking at the same time.
He's in a tough position, but that's what they pay
him to do. So I don't have any sympathy for him,
but I do try to advise him in terms of
(13:35):
what I think are creditable steps that he can take
to deal with this situation. When he came out with
this statement, he did not consult me. But on the
other hand, sometimes he uses me like a lawyer. He
doesn't come to me before he commits the murder. He
comes to me after he commits the murder and say,
how do I claim this mess up? So so this
is one of those instances where that would have been
(13:56):
a statement that I would not have advised him to make.
And if he was to make a statement, he should
have used Kaepernick's name. He should have came out and said,
I understand the situation. I'm the commissioner of the league.
I do not hire players. I think that Kaepernick should
be in the league. Mouthing black lives matter doesn't mean
you get it. White people will get black lives matter
(14:17):
when they've changed the system, when we've shifted from the
pain of the black community to the problems embedded in
the human and institutional relationships in the white community, and
those changes have been made and they can look back
and say, wow, we get it. That was some six
stuff we were involved in. But until then, just mouthing
(14:38):
me too doesn't mean they get it. And when you
mouth me too and don't even use the name of
the individual who is most central to the situation you're addressing,
like Kaepernick, then you really don't get it. We're in
the same situation now that we've been in since twenty
seventeen when Kaepernick was not picked up by a team.
(14:58):
Kapp is still on the street. All of the PSAs,
all of the sympathetic statements, all of the money they
may play at the social justice issues won't mean very much.
In point of fact, it will stand and start contradiction
to the reality, if not in abject hypocrisy. As long
as Kaepernick is on the street, it's a very simple
(15:23):
matter to put Kaepernick on a roster. They are recruiting
quarterbacks out of retirement villages. They're stacking money on tables
in front of guys who have retired to bring them
back because they can take a snap. And there's Kaepernick
on the street, and so at the end of the day,
there's no rectifying this gross contradiction. Can you talk about
(15:47):
what it was like for black athletes in the nineteen
sixties and kind of compare that to where black athletes
and athletes in general are now. Well, I think we
have to understand that any part a generation of athletes
is really inextricably connected to the evolution of blacks in
sport and American society. So that first wave of black
(16:10):
athletes with Jesse Owens and Joe Lewis and Paul Robeson
and Jack Johnson who achieved most of their respect as
athletes and in the national arena. After that was the
post World War two years of Jackie Robinson, Larry Dobe
in baseball, of Kenny Washington would have Strode, Bill Willis
and Marion Modley, and football most certainly of Errol Lloyd,
(16:31):
Chuck Cooper and Sweetwater Clifton and basketball where they were
struggling for access, framed up by a civil rights movement
which was trying to break down segregation, not to integrate,
but to desegregate, because the thought was that any change
would be both ways, that that'd be whites moving into
black institutions and hotels and restaurants and so forth, and
(16:53):
Blacks moving into white institutions hotels, so it wasn't to
integrate as much as to dcgate. Of course, that move
turned out to be one way, and what happened was
that there was a predatory inclusion where they brought the
black athletes and they didn't bring into black coaches and
managers our ownership, for example, in the negro leagues, and
(17:15):
by nineteen fifty six, when Jackie Robinson retired, the negro
Leagues had collapsed. The black colleges could no longer recruit
blue chip black athletes because it was a predatory inclusion
that was involved and what was literally a corporate plantation
system of sports organization that brought about the rebellion in
the third wave of black athlete revote, which was Tommy
(17:40):
Smith and John Carlos, Bill Russell, Jim Brown. Most certainly
Arthur asked Kurt Flood, who said, I'm just an eighty
thousand dollars year slave when he challenged the rule that
allowed owners in baseball to trade players away without any
safe or in point of fact. And they noticed, so
everything is kind of built up on everything else that
(18:01):
third wave, which challenged the dignity and respect level that
black athletes had even in the desegregated sports environment, was
critical to the fourth wave, which came along with Kaepernick.
Kapp realized that with the Trayvon Martin murder, with the
(18:22):
Mike Brown murder, with the other murders that occurred on
the cover of the Badge, the only reason it was
him rather than Mike Brown, The only reason it was
him rather than George Floyd, the only reason it was
him rather than Rachiard Brooks is that he was not there.
And so again, this intersection of sport, race and society
(18:45):
has generated generation after generation of athlete rebellion. And now
we're into a fifth wave where we're no longer talking
about individual athletes like Smith and Carlos. We see entire
teams of athletes leveraging their power. And what we saw
in the bubble from the Milwaukee Bucks, what we saw
(19:08):
in terms of what's happening with baseball in Major League
Soccer and the WNBA, was absolutely inevitable and unavoidable. Do
you think that black athletes feel the pain now that
those athletes of the past have when it comes to
what they're seeing happening in our streets, happening with people
(19:30):
and being murdered, and then things that we've seen transpire
in twenty twenty. Do you sense the same pain from
athletes that you did back in the sixties when you
first started your work. Well, pain is a very very
personal thing. That's one that's almost undefinable. One person's pain
another person may not even see it like that. But
what I do know is there is a sense of vulnerability.
(19:52):
As I stated, these athletes realize that the only reason
it was George Floyd and not them is that they
were not there. At the end of the day, it's
not so much the pain as the vulnerability. So what
these athletes are now saying is that we must move
beyond this focus on black pain, which generation after generation
(20:14):
has caused us to recycle back to these protest movements.
We need to focus on changing relationships within white society,
within its human and institutional relationships that generate that pain.
And this has always been a major problem because as
soon as the emphasis has shifted in the past from
(20:34):
black pain to white institutional problems, whites have begun to
back up and shy away because they don't want to
deal with the problem of white supremacy. They don't want
to deal with the problem of white privilege. They don't
want to deal with the problem of white inordinate power.
We're not just talking about the pain that everybody is
(20:55):
so empathetic with in terms of Brian Matela and George
Floyd and race Start Brooks. We're talking about attacking the
problems in the white community that generate that pain. When
we begin to demand, as these athletes are, a change
in the institutional relationships and the human relationships in white
(21:15):
society that generate that pain, you're going to get a backlash.
And that's when you're going to begin to find new
pressure on these athletes in terms of their demands. Speaking
of backlash, Colin Kaepernick certainly got that and more when
he took his stance or took his knee. I should
more accurately say, what's your reaction to the backlash that
(21:37):
he took and in any way were you surprised or
did that turn out differently than you thought it would
when he made that stance, It turned out exactly and
precisely the way I thought it would. I talked to
kap about what the likelihood would be. I mean if
you go back to the first wave of athlete activism,
Jack Johnson was literally run out of the country on
the law that was specifically geared to capture him, the
(21:58):
Man Act. Prossguna state lines for elicited purposes with a woman,
and he wound up spending two years in jail. Even
Joe Lewis and Jess Rains were hounded for literally years
decades by the Internal Revenue Service. Paul Robson was declared
an Auwellian non person. Even Jackie Robinson finally said in
(22:18):
his autobiography, I can't stand up for the anthem or
the pledge of allegiance because I realized I never had
it made. And of course Tommy Smith and John Carlos
were banished from amateur track and field for life. Muhammad
Ali was kicked out of his boxing profession in the
prime of his career. This kind of retaliation is traditional
(22:43):
within the American system of corporate plantationism. When it comes
down to African American athletes, especially those who have the commitment,
the intelligence, the courage to stand up and say we
as a society are better than this. I take seriously
that notion of this being the land of the free
(23:05):
and the home of the brave, with liberty and justice
for all. I believe in that, and I'm willing to
put everything on the line to demonstrate and stand behind
that belief. And America's response has been and you will pay,
as far as we're concerned, the ultimate price in terms
of your career as an athlete. What happened to Cab
is traditional, and I think that he was ready for it.
(23:27):
It was not something that he would have welcomed, It
was not something that he would have desired, but it
was something that he most certainly understood was part of
the deal. Now that NFL players have seen what happened
to Cab, but they seem more determined than ever collectively
black players and white players to take a stand and
(23:48):
do something about some of the things going on in
this country. Do you think the outcome would be different
this time? And what advice would you give to these
athletes who clearly want to do more to bring this
country together into effect real change. First of all, there
is some degree of security in numbers. You're looking at
team efforts in this regard, I mean baseball, Major League Soccer,
(24:13):
the NBA, the NFL. I think you're more likely to
see team efforts and the whole issue of protests is great,
but at some point you have to move from protests
into programs if you're going to achieve progress. And I
think that this is where it's kind of falling off
at You have teams that are protesting, but what are
(24:35):
they going to do? That becomes the issue how do
they get all of the stakeholders involved. Now, when you
begin to talk about barcotting games, which is why I
call for a barcott of the nineteen sixty eight Olympics,
you get all of the stakeholders involved in those games
involved in next steps. You get owners, you get sponsors,
(24:58):
you get the television works, you even get organized fan groups.
You get cities, economic powers in the local area where
the stadiums are located, where they make their money. You
get all of them around the table and talking seriously
about putting pressure on the district attorney, putting pressure on
the prosecutors about some of these murders that are taking
(25:22):
place under cover of the badge. When you begin to
talk about boycotts, you're sending a message because there will
be no business as usual until we get that underweight.
Kneeling is a form of protest. You're making a statement.
I'm not against anybody making a statement. Once the Milwaukee
(25:43):
Bucks essentially had a workstop, it's followed by the rest
of the league. Athletes are sending a message to everybody
who was a stakeholder in that walkout. A message has
been sent. It comes down to, yeah, I get it,
but what are you going to do? What are you
going to do? We have to move from protests and
(26:04):
making a statement to progress, and the way you get
there is to get all the stakeholders around the table.
But you send them a message letting them know that
you have a role in this. Doctor Edwards, I want
to thank you so much for your time, for your
life's work, for your commitment and all that you were
(26:25):
brought to the table. Thank you so much. Thank you
so much for having men. Let's welcome Ravens quarterback Robert Griffin,
the third to black in the NFL. He's a former
Heisman Trophy winner and a former NFL Rookie of the Year.
His parents were both sergeants in the United States Army.
(26:46):
Robert was born in Japan. His family moved often, spending
time in Washington State, South Carolina, and New Orleans before
settling in Texas. During his high school years, Robert has
been exposed to many cultures in an environments, giving him
an eclectic view of the world, and over the past
several years, he has become one of the Ravens most
outspoken players on race and society. Athletes who refuse to
(27:10):
shut up and play like Robert are getting more support
from teams and fans to speak out on social issues.
According to an August survey conducted by ESPN, seventy one
percent of fans support athletes speaking out and forty four
percent strongly supported it. Nearly half of the fans surveyed
so that they are more likely to support teams and
(27:31):
athlete who speak out than they were last year. Robert
is determined to be on the right side of history
when it comes to race and social justice. Let's hear
from him. Welcome to the podcast. Obviously, fans know a
lot about you as an athlete, but I wanted to
(27:52):
start off first with kind of your background. I know
you come from a military family, You've lived a lot
of places growing up. How do you think that has
shaped your views or did shape your views as far
as raised social issues and things like that having such
a background living so many places. Yeah, I don't know
if a lot of people know this, but my parents
(28:14):
combined served thirty four years in the military. So I
was born in Japan, moved around a bunch, lived in
Washington State, New Orleans, Louisiana, South Carolina, and then finally
settled in Texas and Conference Cove, Texas. So I was
able to live life in many different areas with many
(28:34):
different ethnic backgrounds. You know. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to
live the suburban lifestyle, but I was able to grow
up in the projects, to grow up in the inner
cities and see how those different dynamics play out. And
sometimes those weren't always predominantly black communities, you know, some
of those communities are also predominantly white. So I was
(28:57):
able to learn how to adapt in different situations. My
wife tells me all the time when I get around
my family from New Orleans to five before, she says, man,
you start talking different and I don't know who you are,
Like what does that mean? I'm like, I don't know,
but they know. And you just learn how to adapt
in different situations. And unfortunately in America that's just not
(29:21):
the case. Everybody doesn't get that opportunity to grow up
in different communities and experience different cultural norms. So that
was has set me up really well and it's allowed
me to be a great leader also in football, because
the NFL's a melting pot. You know, I know that
the league is predominantly black, but you get all types
of races and creeds coming into the locker room, and
(29:41):
you have to be able to communicate with those guys effectively,
not just as a quarterback, but just as a person.
Let them know that you understand what they're going through
and understand some of the things that maybe someone who's
never experienced that would you As an athlete, Robert have
found your voice speaking out publicly about really variety of things,
almost anything seemingly that you want to speak out about.
(30:04):
Some athletes, even though they have a lot of opinions
and a lot to say, don't say it publicly. Where
do you think you learn to have the confidence or presidence,
however you want to praise it, to have such a
powerable voice. The guys who don't have the voice yet
and are afraid to express it. There's a big reason
for that, and it's job security, right and other guys
(30:24):
weren't kneeling in twenty sixteen and twenty seventeen because they knew,
based off what team they were on or what community
they were in where their team was represented, they might
not have a job the next day if they took
that knee. I think what is happening today by virtue
of the coronavirus, people became more aware of some of
the things that the minority communities are having to deal
(30:46):
with when it comes to inequality, police batality, and racism,
and I think that has made it more acceptable for
guys to express themselves in a manner like myself to
bring attention to those things. I'm a that has typically
not spoken out as much as I have in the
past year or two, I've done more things in the
(31:08):
community behind the scenes because I felt like that was
more effective. Sometimes people speak out because they want that attention,
they wanted to be about them, and I never wanted
to be that guy. So I felt like if I
went into the community and made an impact to try
to fix some of the issues that were going on
in those communities, it was more impactful than just saying
something on Twitter or Instagram or Facebook and then not
(31:30):
doing anything. So this year I got to spend a
lot more time at home with the family because the coronavirus,
we didn't have OTAs or mini camp and I just
tried to think, maybe now is the right time to
not just do it behind the scenes and in the community,
but also to use the platform that I have on
social media and the millions of followers that I have
there too, to be outspoken and not be afraid of
(31:53):
any negative backlash or job security issues. And that's the
main thing that I think guys are afraid of. They're
afraid of the backlash, and now what's going on. It's like,
why not, right, why not taking me during the national
anthem to show not just the black community, but all
communities in America that you are in this fight with them.
(32:16):
It's time for us to be the country that we
always say we are right. We send troops all over
the world to solve everybody else's problems, but we just
want to turn a blind eye to the ones we
have right in front of us. So I think that
kind of really really dug deep with me because my
parents served and they sacrifice for this country for people
(32:38):
to be able to protest, for people to point out
the wrongs that are going on and what has been
going on in our nation for so long has to
come to an end. Yeah, they speaking of your parents,
you said they're both military, so I'm curious, you know,
are they against players kneeling or what's the feeling on that.
And you've also mentioned your wife. She's not from this country,
so how does she view all that's going on here?
(33:01):
And the conversation with you guys may have I'm not
gonna lie to you. We could have an entire podcast
about the fact that my wife is not from this
country and just some of the things that happens here
and just how mind boggling that is, not just for her,
but just for people who live abroad and they look
at America as this. You know, we're a world leader,
(33:22):
where this powerhouse, and we have these issues that are
that are easily fixable if we just acknowledge them right
and if we just put in a plan of action
to eliminate them. As far as my parents, I'm not
gonna lie. Mom and dad initially didn't want me to
be as vocal because I'm a black man in America.
They didn't want me to receive negative backlash and after
(33:46):
kind of explaining to them, you know what I said
earlier in this podcast about you know, the time is now,
like why not do that? I think they understood that
and have supported me through it. They became understanding extremely fast.
I think it was after the video that we did
with the Ravens and I put that video out. I
(34:06):
think it was six or seven minutes long, straight just
talking to the camera. I sent that to my dad
and my mom. Our legislators abandon us, our press vilifies us.
We're proud to be black, and we're going to continue
to be proud to be black until the day we died,
and that's all we have to say. They called me
(34:29):
immediately and said, wow, that's powerful. You need to share
that everywhere. And I think that's when they were on board.
What did you think when you saw that video, Robber.
I mean, obviously a lot of players and coaches were
in it, a lot of people from the organizations d Bashadi.
When people were first talking about it, no one knew
exactly how is going to turn out and what it
(34:50):
would look like. What did you think, as being a
member of the team being in the video? Just courage
to hear your thoughts about what you thought of it
after you first saw it. I thought was very powerful
and I think we were one of the first teams
to get it done and lead the way for the
rest of the league. As far as coming out with
those types of videos and statements, My thought was, Wow,
(35:12):
Steve Bashatti, it was on one percent his call. He
didn't have to do that, right. We talked about it,
the unaffected have to be just as outraged as the
affected in order for a change to actually come to fruition,
and I thought that was a big moment of that.
So I feel like the video went went a long
way to actually making our own organization even closer because
(35:38):
people were having to hear stories that you know, we
normally don't tell. I don't just go to the castle,
as we call it. I don't just go to the
castle and like tell horror stories about what happened to
me when I was growing up like that. That's not
what it is. You go there for a job. You
go there to be the best player you can be
and help the team win the team. The team the
team well, I think our team in general, just players, coaches, administrative,
(36:00):
marketing side, the media side has grown so much closer
because they've had to sit down and listen to these stories,
and I think that's the attention that needs to be
brought to them. And now we're going out and making
actions and making things happen. As powerful as that was
and as many people were involved, as you know, not
everybody's on board with the things that we're talking about.
(36:23):
And obviously you get reaction online that's negative. How do
you handle that? Anything that you say, there's going to
be detractors, there's going to be naysayers. My job. I
feel like our job is to educate, its to educate
and not get frustrated. And I think that's where we're at.
Some people are clinging to ideals that may be out
(36:47):
of touch in today's world. And some people think that
if they support Black Lives Matter, they are tearing themselves down.
And that's not what it is. Your supportive Black Lives
Matter or or the black community, or you know, the
fight against injustice or racism, that's not pulling you down
as a as a white person in America or any
(37:09):
other creed. You're really just trying to build up the
black community so that everybody can be on an equal
playing field. All lives can't matter if black lives don't,
and black lives in America have inherently shown up to
not matter in certain situations with police brutality, mass incarceration.
I can keep going, but I'll stop. So I try
(37:31):
to use this analogy that if the house is on
fire and you're the fire department, you go put out
the fire at that house. You don't drive down the
street and spray water on every house on the block
on your way to the house that's on fire. Right
and the house that's on fire right now is the
black community. That house is on fire. We have to
(37:53):
put out that fire to be able to build that
community up so that it can be in good standing
with the rest of the house, the houses in the community.
It's about human rights and doing the right thing for everybody.
Nobody deserves to get shot seven times in the back
in front of the children. It's not even just that,
it's at what point do you say enough is enough?
At what point are we going to hold police officers
(38:16):
who do step out of line accountable? Because not all
police are bad. Not every story that we all have
from encounters with police officers are horror stories. But there's
a few bad apples it's just about accountability. And that's
where we were with the Ravens when we talked about
getting the vote for the Policing Act in the House
(38:38):
and in the Senate. When you sign up to protect
and serve, you got to protect and serve, You're not
signing up to just kill people. You're not signing up
to shoot unarmed black people. When you see some of
the things that happened, like with the Milwaukee Bucks not
taking the four or four playoff game, and how that
(38:59):
kind I brought everyone to the table. I talked to
the doctor Harry Edwards on this podcast and he said
he was really thrilled basically to see the Bucks take
action like that because it forced everyone to come to
the table, the owners, the league itself, the players, the sponsors.
Do you feel that athletes, and I'll particularly focus on
(39:22):
NFL athletes since you're an NFL player, watched that and said, wow,
you know, like if things don't change, if some of
the promises being made aren't kept, that this could be
something that you know, we could do down the line
if necessary. Although the Ravens we didn't decide to cancel practice,
(39:42):
numerous NFL teams canceled practice I believe the NBA canceled
games for two days, and some people would look at
that and say, Okay, well, what did you really do.
Well at the end of the day, you made people
talk about it. You made people talk about why they
missed those games, why these teams canceled practice. I mean,
we had a three hour meeting about it after practice,
(40:06):
something I've never experienced in my entire life at any level, college,
high school, not pro any of it, which was phenomenal
to me because we had that conversation a couple of
months ago, and the first thing that we said when
we got in there was here we are again. Here
we are again having the same conversation, but it was
a more in depth conversation and we were in person,
(40:27):
we weren't via zoom, and it was it was a
powerful conversation. So seeing them do that, it lets everyone
know that if things don't change, and these things continue
to happen and we don't do anything to implement a
reform of it, then we're just not going to play.
And I think NFL players are in line with that.
(40:51):
No one wants to miss games, right Primarily, guys were
driven to win championships, right that it's like ingrained in
us to win when when and but even more than that,
guys want to take care of their families, right, So
we want to play because I want to be able
to take care of my kids. I want to be
able to take care of my wife. I want to
(41:11):
be able to, you know, honestly pay my bills. Right.
But at the same time, by us playing or not playing,
we control the narrative. So I think that's where players
are right now. We feel like we are having some
positive reform and I feel like the NBA has kind
of led the charge on that. But as NFL players,
(41:34):
all eyes are going to be on us, and we're
the most popular sport in America. So if things don't
start to change, then we're gonna have to change, and
I think the players are prepared to do that, even
if it's going to be a very hard decision that
ends up affecting their bottom line. Robert, great talking to
you as always right. Love. The way that you're moving
(41:58):
a conversation, Alonge is just you're showing who you are
for sure, And definitely I think this is a time
where we're gonna look back those of those who are
fortunate enough to look back and look at twenty twenty
is a time that was important for this country. Yeah,
thank you for being on Black in the NFL. Best
(42:20):
of luck this season to you and to obviously to
the Baltimore Ravens, and keep on keeping on. I appreciate
your brother. Let's let's be on the right side of history.
That's what I would tell everybody. Be on the right
side of history, and let's make this change out, all right,
Take care of man. Appreciate your brother. God bless This
(42:42):
concludes episode one of Black in the NFL. If you
still think athletes should shut up and play, think about this.
In America, a white Green Beret like Nate Boyer can
meet with an outspoken athlete like Colin Kaepernick and they
can both grow from the experience. In America, a courageous
(43:03):
man like doctor Harry Edwards can encourage athletes to raise
their fists on Olympic podium, and fifty years later he
can still challenge athletes to raise their consciousness. In America,
Robert Griffin the Third can pursue the career he wants,
marry who he wants, and speak out when he wants.
That's the America I want. Do you join us for
(43:33):
the next episode of Black in the NFL, entitled to
Neil or Not to Kneel. Our guests will include Ravens
defensive players Calias Campbell and Matthew Judan, who both knelt
during the National Anthem in London in twenty seventeen when
Judan was with the Ravens and Klaas Campbell was playing
for Jacksonville. We'll hear from other voices in that episode
(43:54):
as well. This podcast was produced by Blue Wire. Noah
Everhard produced and edited the show. Ryan Mink, Michelle Andres,
Peter Moses, and Jonathan Yales were executive producers. Until we
Talk again, Be safe and Be Blessed.
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