August 1, 2021 • 21 mins
Who better than a former Buccaneer safety now coach to walk you through nickel and dime packages and why they’re on the rise in today’s NFL. Is nickel really the new base? Find out.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
So you think you know football, come find out straight
from the source in the Booth Review podcast, where we
take you inside the offices of the Bucks assistant coaches
to talk some football fundamentals. Get your white boards ready.
Here's Bucketeers staff writer Carmen Vitality. Welcome back into another episode.
I'm staff writer Carman Vitality, and I am joined by
(00:21):
someone the Bucks fans already know even before he got
here on Bruce Arians coaching staff. It is Cody Grim,
defensive assistant and former Buccaneer safety. Yeah. Thanks for having me, Hi, Cody.
How are you? I am doing well? The better questions,
how are you doing great? Can't complain? And if you did,
no one would listen, right, Yeah, no doubt happy you'd
(00:43):
be back, you know, in the office and doing football,
doing that doing that football thing that you got, got
that thing. Well. That is something different though from the
last time you were here. Um, take me through some
of your initial memories from being here with the Buccaneers
and then and and then being able to come back here,
because I don't think we've really talked to you very
(01:05):
much since you've got here in Yeah, I mean, it's
been awesome, it's nice to come back to a facility
that you have some familiary familiar arity with. How you
say that word? Yeah, yeah, so it's nice knowing your
way around. And then uh, obviously I knew some people
that were on staff a little bit. Um, so it's uh,
(01:26):
it's been awesome so far being back and I really
enjoy coaching with these guys and uh, just trying to
help the Buccaneers win some games. Well, you guys have
so far been able to accomplish that goal pretty well
judging from last year. But tell me what that transition
was like for you to get into coaching. What made
you want to coach? Well, I mean I always grew
up in a football family. Obviously, my dad played for
(01:47):
a long time and then started coaching, and that's kind
of what my family, uh dou did and does I
mean my brother coached for a long time, and so,
uh yeah, I always wanted to I always wanted to
be a football coach. We're on up me and I
thought I like playing football, but I never really envisioned
myself being able to play in the NFL because I mean,
(02:08):
just being realistically, it's it's hard to make it here,
and uh, you know, kind of in college. I was like,
I'm gonna play football, so and learned about the game
and I can get into coaching one day, and uh,
next thing, you know, I kind of started playing pretty
decent and it was like, heck, you got a shot.
And then it was able to work out and got
drafted down here and enjoyed my time. And unfortunately that
(02:30):
uh they told me I couldn't play football anymore, at
least not for them. Well but well and behold you
get to come back and you get you're good enough
to coach for them. Yeah, well, it was awesome experience playing.
I mean I was have a special place for the
Bucks and my heart drafted me right out of college,
and uh, I love it down here, and it's it's
(02:50):
fun to be back. Well, and with that experience that
you have then as a player, especially in a position
like safety, where I think we actually just talked to
os Cockroll this week where he's talking about playing at
corner playing at safety, what the differences are Safeties You
really have to see the entire field, so you have
to understand what's in front of you, the defense that's
in front of you. I have to imagine that helps
(03:11):
when it comes to now coaching. Yeah, I mean, I
think it definitely helps. And I think the players, uh,
you know, like hearing it from someone that's been in
their shoes and seeing it. You know, I kind of
have an understanding of what can be hard and easier
and different coverages, and uh as long as I mean
most of our coaches do because they've we've been coaching
for a long time. But I think it helps telling
(03:32):
the player, you know, I could see what you're seeing
here and and then try to get his eyes in
a better spot or you know, deeping him up or
help his leverage in order for him to be able
to execute to the best psibility. That was a very
coachli answer, very very good job. But because of all
this experience, though, then I wanted to break down a
couple of pretty simplistic terms that I think there's more
(03:53):
to them than people realize. You hear it on the
broadcast when you're watching football. You hear the term nickel.
You hear the term dying when it comes to defensive
formations and personnel like that that are on the field. Um,
and I thought, hey, who better than a former NFL
safety and now coach to take us through what nickel
and dime actually means. So if you want to start
really basic defining these terms, what does nickel mean? What
(04:15):
does dime mean? Well, our Nickel package is a five
dB package, so I mean basically, you know five nickel,
So we uh take out one of the d lineman
and we'll put in a defensive back, someone that's better
in space and can cover a little bit more. We're
thinking they're probably gonna pass the ball because of their personnel.
(04:36):
And then dime then means, yeah, dimes is six dB package.
I mean you can either put in a lineback or
or another dB, but we'll take out another big guy,
put in someone a little bit better in space, because again,
usually if you're playing dime, you know they're passing. It's
gonna be third and long something like that. And the
nice thing about that is you have now six guys
(04:59):
on the field that are good in space and are
used to covering guys receivers, and then you can also
bring them if you want, so they don't know who's coming. Well,
that's that's I think the I don't know if I
want to say advantage necessarily, but advantage that the defense
has when they're in these packages because just because you're
in the Nickel package doesn't necessarily preclude you from your
(05:22):
still you can still come after the quarterback. You can
still blitz, you know, a guy using a defensive back,
and I think we've seen that with this defense in
particular quite a bit. Um are what are those advantages
when you're in a nickel package, Like how much more
free freedom or maybe creativity do you have when you
have that personnel on the field for the dealer? I
(05:43):
mean you have a lot Like basically, if you want
to go in football terms, cover zero, where we're gonna
bring everyone, you have six guys on the field that
are can execute man to man coverage. So I mean
in normal package, you know, you only got four dbs
on the field and ace. So the offense kind of
has an understanding, Hey, they're not gonna put you know,
(06:04):
the outside linebacker on our slot to cover them and
man to man stuff like that. Well you wouldn't think so,
but apparently these these the outside linebackers keep petitioning for
more drops. They want to keep drinking. Yeah, yeah, they
like an interceptions. Yeah. I think they're better attacking the
quarterback though just lately, I don't know. I mean, we
had what Jason Pierpaul had two interceptions last year, so
(06:28):
you never know. Um, But I want to talk a
little bit about how Nickel has just kind of grown
into almost a standard formation at this point, or a
standard package because of like what does that do to
Why do you see so much Nicol like Nickel packages
across the league, across the board, on the field all
the time. Yeah, I mean some of the rule changes,
(06:48):
you know, as far as uh getting your hands on
the wide receivers and stuff like that, it's just become
a past happy league. So and then the other thing is,
I mean a lot of these tight ends nowadays, they're
they're like receivers. So if you want to stay in base,
all of a sudden they flex out Gronk or o J.
You know, it can be a little bit of a
(07:09):
matchup issue. So I think just uh, some of the
rule changes in a lot of teams, you know, passing
a lot more than they have. Uh, you want to
have some dbs on the field to cover well. And
do you do you subscribe to that notion that Nicol
is now becoming Are you gonna go that far to
say Nicola is the new base because I mean even
in a defense like this one, the three or four defense,
(07:31):
where in the base package you have five guys on
the line of scrimmage on that defensive front. You see
a lot of packages with four linemen because you're in
that Nickel package. Yeah, I mean I think we probably
are in Nickel more than base nowadays. And I actually
in college I was like a Sam linebacker slash Nickel,
So I we we never had base defense. It was
(07:55):
everything was it was just Nickel. How does it differ,
because we did talk to fight in another episode about
the three four verse the fourth three defense, how did
these How does does that at all affect kind of
how you operate? Like because Nickel packages are not exclusive
to a three four defense, correct, so you can you
can run them out of a four three scheme as well.
(08:16):
Does that change the people that you're pulling out? Does
that change anything about kind of the front um? Yeah,
I mean obviously the front is similar, but you just
take out a linebacker and set them an outside linebacker.
It's a simple. Well, it's good to kind of break
it down simplistically because I don't think you know, necessarily,
(08:36):
you we see these guys subbing in and out constantly,
and it's based on talking about another episode we even
we even did with Tim Atkins talking about defensive personnel
and how you guys have to call that from the
booth so you know what personnel on your side to
try it out on the field, because you need to
know what the offense is is trying against you. Yeah, exactly,
I mean they're personnel and then down in distance. I
(08:57):
mean even if they're in a you know, twelve personnel.
Look if it's second and long title stay nickel a
lot of times because he's like, you know, if they
want to run and pick up you know, you might
be a little light in the box. You're taking out
a big guy and putting in a dB. But if
they want to run the ball for three yards four yards,
that's all right. We'll get them to third down rather
than you know, trot out base just because they're in
(09:18):
twelve personnel. That's what they want you to get in.
You know, they want you to put a big guy
out there and then pass the ball. Is there other
than you know, you see a lot more of these
three wide receiver sets from offenses. Um, are there any
other kind of keys or maybe maybe it's down a distance,
maybe different situations that you that you pretty much always
throw a nickel package out there. Yeah. I mean obviously
(09:42):
two minutes, you know, if we have a big lead
and we think they're going to be passed, and you know,
but that's all feel of the game type thing. And
obviously you watch their film and you try to get
the best understanding you have. But yeah, I mean there
are situations where you would just keep nickel out there
all the time. I want to talk a little bit
about the nickel position itself as well, because I feel
(10:06):
like there's characteristics of a nickel that are different from
maybe a true outside corner, or the expectations are a
little bit different, the guys are covering are a little
bit different, you're in traffic a little bit more. Uh,
what makes a good nickel and and how do you
differentiate which guys can kind of do both, like for instance,
Sean Murphy Bunting, who starts and hit the base package
on the outside, but then we'll kick in and be
(10:27):
the nickel for us. Yeah, I mean, I think you
need a guy, a guy that has a good understanding
of the game, a good feel pressure wise, you know,
he can come and he can because you're gonna blitz him.
You know, he's closer to the ball, he's gonna do
a lot of zone coverage passing with the linebackers. So
you you kind of want someone that has a good
skill set you can match up with shiftier guys, you know,
(10:50):
and uh, obviously Bonning can do both. But he just
has a good feel for the game and it's good
at you know, passing off and working with the linebackers.
He's good at blitzing, timing his blitz is and that's
what makes him has some success in there. And I
mean that Craig if I'm wrong, but that kind of
takes a tougher like body or a bigger body even
to do that, because you kind of have to hold
(11:11):
up inside when you're going against tight ends, when you're
going against kind of these bigger receivers. Yeah, and and
I mean in the run game too, you know they're
gonna get an action a lot more as far as
uh bitting in gaps in the box and stuff like that.
So yeah, you'd like a guy that has some durability
and a little bigger And then how does that relate
then to like say, all right, so now let's say
(11:32):
you feel the dime package, are you bringing in another
corner or are you bringing in another safety or does
it depend like what? How do you kind of figure
out who you're going to bring in at that point? Yeah,
I mean it just depends on the package and what
you're looking for. I mean, if you're gonna be blitz
and the guy more, you know, you might want to
put a safety in there. If he's gonna be doing
(11:54):
more coverage, you know, you might want to put a
corner in there. So you've just put players and you
put them in position based on you know, coverages that
they execute, like in nickel, So it's nice, Hey, this
guy knows how to play this little bit, put him
in this coverage. He's done it plenty of times. He's good.
And then obviously you don't have to worry about them
running the ball, so you can bring some exotic blitz
(12:15):
is where you're not worried about canceling every gap in there.
You know they want to run it again, we'll tackle
them and they'll be punting the ball. So that's that's
what's fun about the dime packages. You can kind of
line people up where they want because everybody has similar
skill sets everyone can cover and then you're not worried
about gapping out. You're bringing several off an edge, dropping
(12:36):
other ones, putting them in situations that they're used to.
What when, like when offenses see that, are there different
counters that they try or like, you know what kind
of like beaters? Will they have to nickel in dime packages?
What will they try to do when they see that
the defense has brought in extra defensive backs. I mean
(12:57):
they'll try they'll try to hit you with some screens
and stuff like that. It along, but they'll stay with
their base stuff. I mean a lot of offense will
try to tempo you or something I know in the
past we'll try to temple on third down just to
keep that type of package off the field. But I'm
talking about tempo. You mean without not no huddle kind
of going really fast. You can't get these substitutions in. Yeah, exactly.
(13:19):
But I mean they watch film too, so they'll have
a somewhat of understanding what will they'll will they come
out and go empty, so so they can have a
somewhat of a feel who who to try to pick
up and who's gonna be covering. Talk to me more
about the Bucks personnel. Then we talked a little bit
about Sean Murphy Bunting and how he's Nickel or he
(13:41):
comes in at Nickel. Um. What about these other outside
guys even the safeties and stuff like having the flexibility
that it takes to run these packages in this system,
in particular because the system does rely on defensive back
blitzes and they blitz maybe they have a little bit
more exotic as as you said before, blitz is and
I feel like a lot of other teams where they
(14:02):
rely on these guys to pull double duty like that. Yeah,
I mean, nowadays, you know you need these guys to
be cross trained to different positions because all of a sudden,
a couple of injuries happen. You need to get someone
out there that has experienced. So we've we've practiced. Windfield
and Mike Edwards are both at Nicols, so they have
a good grasp of that if needed. And then uh
(14:25):
Podd does a good stuff does a lot as far
as having people, you know, in certain defenses when Field
might be the run through Mike, so he gets experienced
at that, and or Jordans and this and that. So
when we put these packages together, we can be like, hey,
this is you've done this coverage before, you're just doing
it from a different spot. And I think that that's
also a big point to be made that I feel
(14:47):
like every position on this defense, every guy on this defense,
the goal is to get them to understand the defense
the whole, maybe not just their position and not just
their responsibility. That way, when it does come time to
maybe shuffle them around, it's as easy as saying, all right, yeah,
it's the same thing, but you already like this is
what you're in a different spot and you're just going
to do that exactly exactly, And I mean it's just
(15:09):
good as for us. You know, the whole back end,
you've got to know what you're what other people are doing.
It gives you so you know where your help is,
because I mean, if you don't know where your help is,
it's it's hard to cover these guys. But if you
know where your help is, all of a sudden, it
makes a lot easier. That's something that I also want
to hit on, and it's a little bit of I
guess we're going off the tracks a little bit from
(15:30):
Nickel and Dime, But um, the point of this series
especially is to just have people understand a little bit
more what they're looking at when they're watching football. And
one of the things that I see all the time
is people get really mad at these corners that appeared
to be man a man with a guy or whatever.
But it's like, oh, he blew that coverage. All he
blew that Well a lot of times there's a safety
in the middle of the field that was supposed to
(15:52):
come help him out, and so the corner didn't run
with him the whole time because he thought the safety
was going to pick him back up. Like that help
i've you like goes. You know, obviously it's hard to
know where that help is supposed to be, uh, when
these guys are lined up and when you're watching from home.
But how often is that the case? I mean, how
often are you really leaving these guys on an island
(16:13):
or how often is it that he's he's supposed to
have some help back there? Yeah, I mean usually when
they're when they're pointed to someone else, it's a it's
like a bust in the coverage. You know. Hopefully, you know,
as long as we know our assignments, those type of
things won't happen. I mean, there's definitely some place that
are harders for us, some quarter beaters and stuff like
that Tampa two beaters. But I mean, if you understand
(16:37):
the game and the positions like these guys, do you know,
it should be a bang bang play, but uh yeah,
usually when they're pointing and someone's running free, that was
they were probably playing two different coverages to say, the
safety in the corner, so that was. Yeah, it could
be as simple as something like a breakdown in communication exactly.
That's what that's the key. These guys got to communicate
every play and we harp it harp or safety is
(17:00):
on it. Like you guys got to talk because if
you don't talk, that type of stuff can happen. And
then how does like have you seen the game change
from when you were playing even which wasn't that long
ago to now and now that you're coaching, are you
seeing different things? Are Like are you even in like
a nickel package or a dime package more now maybe
than you were back when you were playing. Yeah? Yeah,
(17:23):
I mean there's definitely more more nickel and dime out there,
But the game has always been the same. It's you know,
it's all about running and tackling and communicating and playing
funamimentally sound football and just doing your job. And you
know that there it's a little more pass happy now.
But the game, the game is the same, game the same.
(17:47):
That's your tagline apparently, Yeah, the game is the same. Well,
you I want to talk than just a little some
some fun stuff about the room that you get to
work with. You work a lot with the safety's corners
to but a lot with the safeties um as a
defensive assistant correct and you're working with all those guys.
What are those guys like to be around? How? How
much do you love this group? Love them? They're they're
(18:07):
a great group of guys. I mean, they're funny, but
they come to work, they work hard and and they're
always in you know, good spirit, smile on their face,
and they want to get better and you can can't
ask for a better group. Well, and they feel like
they've gotten some slights the second area as a whole
these last couple of years, and they kind of have
(18:28):
this ship on their shoulder where they're like, no, like
we're I mean, there was the infamous you know, thirty
second ranking prior to last season, and I think you
all took a like a lot of joy and being like, yeah,
well we want that that thirty second ranked team yah
won the Super Bowl or that thirty second rank group
super Bowl this year. Well, I mean they were so young,
(18:48):
you know, our first year together and we were learning
the new defense. And the fact that watching these guys
grow together and start learning the coverage better, knowing where
their help is going to be, communicating with each other better,
it's it's fun to watch. And uh yeah, I mean
they should have a chip on their shoulders and I
think they still do, and it's it's helped us. Yeah,
And I mean, what do you think you see the evolution?
(19:12):
Where do you see the evolution going this next year
with these guys, Like what are the things that they're
going to need to be working on more? Well, there's
always stuff to be working on, you know. I mean, uh,
if you get if you watch practice, I mean, but
just their communication has been a lot better. They need
to obviously keep up with that and just an understanding
(19:32):
the game when they can pass stuff off when they can't,
and they just communicate. They enjoy being around each other,
they enjoy learning the game, and that's that's the best
part about it. I've seen some pictures and some videos
of your own kids and uh, and your and your son.
He looks like he is about to be a football
coach and grow and follow in your in his dad's.
(19:53):
But yeah, he enjoys, uh, he enjoys coming over here
and watching the guys. I know that wife has brought
up here a couple of times, and you know, not
every time I go home. Now, daddy's worked. Daddy's worked,
like I'm not going back to work. Do you see?
Kind of it was? It was that kind of how
you grew up and and then and you kind of
see the parallels there now. But yeah, a little bit.
(20:15):
I mean I remember my dad coaching for the Steelers
and going up to the trobe and hanging out there
for a couple of days, sitting in on his meetings
and and yeah, Washington, I remember hanging out just they
just let me roam the facility. But Dad probably lost me.
(20:36):
You couldn't have gotten fired exactly somewhere in the building. Yeah, Yeah,
that'll be. That's it's really key to see to see
that and then just to kind of hear a little
bit more about how you just wanted to be a
coach your entire life and now I look at you,
what you're doing it? Yeah pretty cool? Yeah, I enjoy it. Well,
we enjoyed having you. Thank you so much to Cody Graham,
(20:57):
our defensive as the stand for talking with us today.
My miss carn By Challie staff writer here at the Buccaneers,
and I will talk to Menth
So you think you know football, come find out straight
from the source in the Booth Review podcast, where we
take you inside the offices of the Bucks assistant coaches
to talk some football fundamentals. Get your white boards ready.
Here's Bucketeers staff writer Carmen Vitality. Welcome back into another episode.
I'm staff writer Carman Vitality, and I am joined by
(00:21):
someone the Bucks fans already know even before he got
here on Bruce Arians coaching staff. It is Cody Grim,
defensive assistant and former Buccaneer safety. Yeah. Thanks for having me, Hi, Cody.
How are you? I am doing well? The better questions,
how are you doing great? Can't complain? And if you did,
no one would listen, right, Yeah, no doubt happy you'd
(00:43):
be back, you know, in the office and doing football,
doing that doing that football thing that you got, got
that thing. Well. That is something different though from the
last time you were here. Um, take me through some
of your initial memories from being here with the Buccaneers
and then and and then being able to come back here,
because I don't think we've really talked to you very
(01:05):
much since you've got here in Yeah, I mean, it's
been awesome, it's nice to come back to a facility
that you have some familiary familiar arity with. How you
say that word? Yeah, yeah, so it's nice knowing your
way around. And then uh, obviously I knew some people
that were on staff a little bit. Um, so it's uh,
(01:26):
it's been awesome so far being back and I really
enjoy coaching with these guys and uh, just trying to
help the Buccaneers win some games. Well, you guys have
so far been able to accomplish that goal pretty well
judging from last year. But tell me what that transition
was like for you to get into coaching. What made
you want to coach? Well, I mean I always grew
up in a football family. Obviously, my dad played for
(01:47):
a long time and then started coaching, and that's kind
of what my family, uh dou did and does I
mean my brother coached for a long time, and so,
uh yeah, I always wanted to I always wanted to
be a football coach. We're on up me and I
thought I like playing football, but I never really envisioned
myself being able to play in the NFL because I mean,
(02:08):
just being realistically, it's it's hard to make it here,
and uh, you know, kind of in college. I was like,
I'm gonna play football, so and learned about the game
and I can get into coaching one day, and uh,
next thing, you know, I kind of started playing pretty
decent and it was like, heck, you got a shot.
And then it was able to work out and got
drafted down here and enjoyed my time. And unfortunately that
(02:30):
uh they told me I couldn't play football anymore, at
least not for them. Well but well and behold you
get to come back and you get you're good enough
to coach for them. Yeah, well, it was awesome experience playing.
I mean I was have a special place for the
Bucks and my heart drafted me right out of college,
and uh, I love it down here, and it's it's
(02:50):
fun to be back. Well, and with that experience that
you have then as a player, especially in a position
like safety, where I think we actually just talked to
os Cockroll this week where he's talking about playing at
corner playing at safety, what the differences are Safeties You
really have to see the entire field, so you have
to understand what's in front of you, the defense that's
in front of you. I have to imagine that helps
(03:11):
when it comes to now coaching. Yeah, I mean, I
think it definitely helps. And I think the players, uh,
you know, like hearing it from someone that's been in
their shoes and seeing it. You know, I kind of
have an understanding of what can be hard and easier
and different coverages, and uh as long as I mean
most of our coaches do because they've we've been coaching
for a long time. But I think it helps telling
(03:32):
the player, you know, I could see what you're seeing
here and and then try to get his eyes in
a better spot or you know, deeping him up or
help his leverage in order for him to be able
to execute to the best psibility. That was a very
coachli answer, very very good job. But because of all
this experience, though, then I wanted to break down a
couple of pretty simplistic terms that I think there's more
(03:53):
to them than people realize. You hear it on the
broadcast when you're watching football. You hear the term nickel.
You hear the term dying when it comes to defensive
formations and personnel like that that are on the field. Um,
and I thought, hey, who better than a former NFL
safety and now coach to take us through what nickel
and dime actually means. So if you want to start
really basic defining these terms, what does nickel mean? What
(04:15):
does dime mean? Well, our Nickel package is a five
dB package, so I mean basically, you know five nickel,
So we uh take out one of the d lineman
and we'll put in a defensive back, someone that's better
in space and can cover a little bit more. We're
thinking they're probably gonna pass the ball because of their personnel.
(04:36):
And then dime then means, yeah, dimes is six dB package.
I mean you can either put in a lineback or
or another dB, but we'll take out another big guy,
put in someone a little bit better in space, because again,
usually if you're playing dime, you know they're passing. It's
gonna be third and long something like that. And the
nice thing about that is you have now six guys
(04:59):
on the field that are good in space and are
used to covering guys receivers, and then you can also
bring them if you want, so they don't know who's coming. Well,
that's that's I think the I don't know if I
want to say advantage necessarily, but advantage that the defense
has when they're in these packages because just because you're
in the Nickel package doesn't necessarily preclude you from your
(05:22):
still you can still come after the quarterback. You can
still blitz, you know, a guy using a defensive back,
and I think we've seen that with this defense in
particular quite a bit. Um are what are those advantages
when you're in a nickel package, Like how much more
free freedom or maybe creativity do you have when you
have that personnel on the field for the dealer? I
(05:43):
mean you have a lot Like basically, if you want
to go in football terms, cover zero, where we're gonna
bring everyone, you have six guys on the field that
are can execute man to man coverage. So I mean
in normal package, you know, you only got four dbs
on the field and ace. So the offense kind of
has an understanding, Hey, they're not gonna put you know,
(06:04):
the outside linebacker on our slot to cover them and
man to man stuff like that. Well you wouldn't think so,
but apparently these these the outside linebackers keep petitioning for
more drops. They want to keep drinking. Yeah, yeah, they
like an interceptions. Yeah. I think they're better attacking the
quarterback though just lately, I don't know. I mean, we
had what Jason Pierpaul had two interceptions last year, so
(06:28):
you never know. Um, But I want to talk a
little bit about how Nickel has just kind of grown
into almost a standard formation at this point, or a
standard package because of like what does that do to
Why do you see so much Nicol like Nickel packages
across the league, across the board, on the field all
the time. Yeah, I mean some of the rule changes,
(06:48):
you know, as far as uh getting your hands on
the wide receivers and stuff like that, it's just become
a past happy league. So and then the other thing is,
I mean a lot of these tight ends nowadays, they're
they're like receivers. So if you want to stay in base,
all of a sudden they flex out Gronk or o J.
You know, it can be a little bit of a
(07:09):
matchup issue. So I think just uh, some of the
rule changes in a lot of teams, you know, passing
a lot more than they have. Uh, you want to
have some dbs on the field to cover well. And
do you do you subscribe to that notion that Nicol
is now becoming Are you gonna go that far to
say Nicola is the new base because I mean even
in a defense like this one, the three or four defense,
(07:31):
where in the base package you have five guys on
the line of scrimmage on that defensive front. You see
a lot of packages with four linemen because you're in
that Nickel package. Yeah, I mean I think we probably
are in Nickel more than base nowadays. And I actually
in college I was like a Sam linebacker slash Nickel,
So I we we never had base defense. It was
(07:55):
everything was it was just Nickel. How does it differ,
because we did talk to fight in another episode about
the three four verse the fourth three defense, how did
these How does does that at all affect kind of
how you operate? Like because Nickel packages are not exclusive
to a three four defense, correct, so you can you
can run them out of a four three scheme as well.
(08:16):
Does that change the people that you're pulling out? Does
that change anything about kind of the front um? Yeah,
I mean obviously the front is similar, but you just
take out a linebacker and set them an outside linebacker.
It's a simple. Well, it's good to kind of break
it down simplistically because I don't think you know, necessarily,
(08:36):
you we see these guys subbing in and out constantly,
and it's based on talking about another episode we even
we even did with Tim Atkins talking about defensive personnel
and how you guys have to call that from the
booth so you know what personnel on your side to
try it out on the field, because you need to
know what the offense is is trying against you. Yeah, exactly,
I mean they're personnel and then down in distance. I
(08:57):
mean even if they're in a you know, twelve personnel.
Look if it's second and long title stay nickel a
lot of times because he's like, you know, if they
want to run and pick up you know, you might
be a little light in the box. You're taking out
a big guy and putting in a dB. But if
they want to run the ball for three yards four yards,
that's all right. We'll get them to third down rather
than you know, trot out base just because they're in
(09:18):
twelve personnel. That's what they want you to get in.
You know, they want you to put a big guy
out there and then pass the ball. Is there other
than you know, you see a lot more of these
three wide receiver sets from offenses. Um, are there any
other kind of keys or maybe maybe it's down a distance,
maybe different situations that you that you pretty much always
throw a nickel package out there. Yeah. I mean obviously
(09:42):
two minutes, you know, if we have a big lead
and we think they're going to be passed, and you know,
but that's all feel of the game type thing. And
obviously you watch their film and you try to get
the best understanding you have. But yeah, I mean there
are situations where you would just keep nickel out there
all the time. I want to talk a little bit
about the nickel position itself as well, because I feel
(10:06):
like there's characteristics of a nickel that are different from
maybe a true outside corner, or the expectations are a
little bit different, the guys are covering are a little
bit different, you're in traffic a little bit more. Uh,
what makes a good nickel and and how do you
differentiate which guys can kind of do both, like for instance,
Sean Murphy Bunting, who starts and hit the base package
on the outside, but then we'll kick in and be
(10:27):
the nickel for us. Yeah, I mean, I think you
need a guy, a guy that has a good understanding
of the game, a good feel pressure wise, you know,
he can come and he can because you're gonna blitz him.
You know, he's closer to the ball, he's gonna do
a lot of zone coverage passing with the linebackers. So
you you kind of want someone that has a good
skill set you can match up with shiftier guys, you know,
(10:50):
and uh, obviously Bonning can do both. But he just
has a good feel for the game and it's good
at you know, passing off and working with the linebackers.
He's good at blitzing, timing his blitz is and that's
what makes him has some success in there. And I
mean that Craig if I'm wrong, but that kind of
takes a tougher like body or a bigger body even
to do that, because you kind of have to hold
(11:11):
up inside when you're going against tight ends, when you're
going against kind of these bigger receivers. Yeah, and and
I mean in the run game too, you know they're
gonna get an action a lot more as far as
uh bitting in gaps in the box and stuff like that.
So yeah, you'd like a guy that has some durability
and a little bigger And then how does that relate
then to like say, all right, so now let's say
(11:32):
you feel the dime package, are you bringing in another
corner or are you bringing in another safety or does
it depend like what? How do you kind of figure
out who you're going to bring in at that point? Yeah,
I mean it just depends on the package and what
you're looking for. I mean, if you're gonna be blitz
and the guy more, you know, you might want to
put a safety in there. If he's gonna be doing
(11:54):
more coverage, you know, you might want to put a
corner in there. So you've just put players and you
put them in position based on you know, coverages that
they execute, like in nickel, So it's nice, Hey, this
guy knows how to play this little bit, put him
in this coverage. He's done it plenty of times. He's good.
And then obviously you don't have to worry about them
running the ball, so you can bring some exotic blitz
(12:15):
is where you're not worried about canceling every gap in there.
You know they want to run it again, we'll tackle
them and they'll be punting the ball. So that's that's
what's fun about the dime packages. You can kind of
line people up where they want because everybody has similar
skill sets everyone can cover and then you're not worried
about gapping out. You're bringing several off an edge, dropping
(12:36):
other ones, putting them in situations that they're used to.
What when, like when offenses see that, are there different
counters that they try or like, you know what kind
of like beaters? Will they have to nickel in dime packages?
What will they try to do when they see that
the defense has brought in extra defensive backs. I mean
(12:57):
they'll try they'll try to hit you with some screens
and stuff like that. It along, but they'll stay with
their base stuff. I mean a lot of offense will
try to tempo you or something I know in the
past we'll try to temple on third down just to
keep that type of package off the field. But I'm
talking about tempo. You mean without not no huddle kind
of going really fast. You can't get these substitutions in. Yeah, exactly.
(13:19):
But I mean they watch film too, so they'll have
a somewhat of understanding what will they'll will they come
out and go empty, so so they can have a
somewhat of a feel who who to try to pick
up and who's gonna be covering. Talk to me more
about the Bucks personnel. Then we talked a little bit
about Sean Murphy Bunting and how he's Nickel or he
(13:41):
comes in at Nickel. Um. What about these other outside
guys even the safeties and stuff like having the flexibility
that it takes to run these packages in this system,
in particular because the system does rely on defensive back
blitzes and they blitz maybe they have a little bit
more exotic as as you said before, blitz is and
I feel like a lot of other teams where they
(14:02):
rely on these guys to pull double duty like that. Yeah,
I mean, nowadays, you know you need these guys to
be cross trained to different positions because all of a sudden,
a couple of injuries happen. You need to get someone
out there that has experienced. So we've we've practiced. Windfield
and Mike Edwards are both at Nicols, so they have
a good grasp of that if needed. And then uh
(14:25):
Podd does a good stuff does a lot as far
as having people, you know, in certain defenses when Field
might be the run through Mike, so he gets experienced
at that, and or Jordans and this and that. So
when we put these packages together, we can be like, hey,
this is you've done this coverage before, you're just doing
it from a different spot. And I think that that's
also a big point to be made that I feel
(14:47):
like every position on this defense, every guy on this defense,
the goal is to get them to understand the defense
the whole, maybe not just their position and not just
their responsibility. That way, when it does come time to
maybe shuffle them around, it's as easy as saying, all right, yeah,
it's the same thing, but you already like this is
what you're in a different spot and you're just going
to do that exactly exactly, And I mean it's just
(15:09):
good as for us. You know, the whole back end,
you've got to know what you're what other people are doing.
It gives you so you know where your help is,
because I mean, if you don't know where your help is,
it's it's hard to cover these guys. But if you
know where your help is, all of a sudden, it
makes a lot easier. That's something that I also want
to hit on, and it's a little bit of I
guess we're going off the tracks a little bit from
(15:30):
Nickel and Dime, But um, the point of this series
especially is to just have people understand a little bit
more what they're looking at when they're watching football. And
one of the things that I see all the time
is people get really mad at these corners that appeared
to be man a man with a guy or whatever.
But it's like, oh, he blew that coverage. All he
blew that Well a lot of times there's a safety
in the middle of the field that was supposed to
(15:52):
come help him out, and so the corner didn't run
with him the whole time because he thought the safety
was going to pick him back up. Like that help
i've you like goes. You know, obviously it's hard to
know where that help is supposed to be, uh, when
these guys are lined up and when you're watching from home.
But how often is that the case? I mean, how
often are you really leaving these guys on an island
(16:13):
or how often is it that he's he's supposed to
have some help back there? Yeah, I mean usually when
they're when they're pointed to someone else, it's a it's
like a bust in the coverage. You know. Hopefully, you know,
as long as we know our assignments, those type of
things won't happen. I mean, there's definitely some place that
are harders for us, some quarter beaters and stuff like
that Tampa two beaters. But I mean, if you understand
(16:37):
the game and the positions like these guys, do you know,
it should be a bang bang play, but uh yeah,
usually when they're pointing and someone's running free, that was
they were probably playing two different coverages to say, the
safety in the corner, so that was. Yeah, it could
be as simple as something like a breakdown in communication exactly.
That's what that's the key. These guys got to communicate
every play and we harp it harp or safety is
(17:00):
on it. Like you guys got to talk because if
you don't talk, that type of stuff can happen. And
then how does like have you seen the game change
from when you were playing even which wasn't that long
ago to now and now that you're coaching, are you
seeing different things? Are Like are you even in like
a nickel package or a dime package more now maybe
than you were back when you were playing. Yeah? Yeah,
(17:23):
I mean there's definitely more more nickel and dime out there,
But the game has always been the same. It's you know,
it's all about running and tackling and communicating and playing
funamimentally sound football and just doing your job. And you
know that there it's a little more pass happy now.
But the game, the game is the same, game the same.
(17:47):
That's your tagline apparently, Yeah, the game is the same. Well,
you I want to talk than just a little some
some fun stuff about the room that you get to
work with. You work a lot with the safety's corners
to but a lot with the safeties um as a
defensive assistant correct and you're working with all those guys.
What are those guys like to be around? How? How
much do you love this group? Love them? They're they're
(18:07):
a great group of guys. I mean, they're funny, but
they come to work, they work hard and and they're
always in you know, good spirit, smile on their face,
and they want to get better and you can can't
ask for a better group. Well, and they feel like
they've gotten some slights the second area as a whole
these last couple of years, and they kind of have
(18:28):
this ship on their shoulder where they're like, no, like
we're I mean, there was the infamous you know, thirty
second ranking prior to last season, and I think you
all took a like a lot of joy and being like, yeah,
well we want that that thirty second ranked team yah
won the Super Bowl or that thirty second rank group
super Bowl this year. Well, I mean they were so young,
(18:48):
you know, our first year together and we were learning
the new defense. And the fact that watching these guys
grow together and start learning the coverage better, knowing where
their help is going to be, communicating with each other better,
it's it's fun to watch. And uh yeah, I mean
they should have a chip on their shoulders and I
think they still do, and it's it's helped us. Yeah,
And I mean, what do you think you see the evolution?
(19:12):
Where do you see the evolution going this next year
with these guys, Like what are the things that they're
going to need to be working on more? Well, there's
always stuff to be working on, you know. I mean, uh,
if you get if you watch practice, I mean, but
just their communication has been a lot better. They need
to obviously keep up with that and just an understanding
(19:32):
the game when they can pass stuff off when they can't,
and they just communicate. They enjoy being around each other,
they enjoy learning the game, and that's that's the best
part about it. I've seen some pictures and some videos
of your own kids and uh, and your and your son.
He looks like he is about to be a football
coach and grow and follow in your in his dad's.
(19:53):
But yeah, he enjoys, uh, he enjoys coming over here
and watching the guys. I know that wife has brought
up here a couple of times, and you know, not
every time I go home. Now, daddy's worked. Daddy's worked,
like I'm not going back to work. Do you see?
Kind of it was? It was that kind of how
you grew up and and then and you kind of
see the parallels there now. But yeah, a little bit.
(20:15):
I mean I remember my dad coaching for the Steelers
and going up to the trobe and hanging out there
for a couple of days, sitting in on his meetings
and and yeah, Washington, I remember hanging out just they
just let me roam the facility. But Dad probably lost me.
(20:36):
You couldn't have gotten fired exactly somewhere in the building. Yeah, Yeah,
that'll be. That's it's really key to see to see
that and then just to kind of hear a little
bit more about how you just wanted to be a
coach your entire life and now I look at you,
what you're doing it? Yeah pretty cool? Yeah, I enjoy it. Well,
we enjoyed having you. Thank you so much to Cody Graham,
(20:57):
our defensive as the stand for talking with us today.
My miss carn By Challie staff writer here at the Buccaneers,
and I will talk to Menth
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