June 25, 2025 • 39 mins
Ep. 896 - If you’re wondering how Trey McBride is spending his summer break, then you might want to check out Nashville. He, along with teammates Elijah Higgins and Tip Reiman, is at TE University, a week-long event that brings together tight ends from around the league. Craig Grialou and Dani Sureck discuss the value of TEU, as well as the Sack Summit in Las Vegas, where Calais Campbell, BJ Ojulari and Darius Robinson are joined by the game’s top pass rushers. This is how players, despite being away from their respective teams, get ready for training camp. Also, have you checked out this week’s Mailbag on azcardinals.com? Dani answered your questions – and explained her answers on the show – about Kyler Murray, the offensive line, and what might the final 53-man roster look like.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
If Trey McBride isn't the best title in the game,
then he's certainly one of the best. And that's not
us Talking bird Gang. Danny Surrek joins me. We discussed
the goings on at tight End University, the goings on
in this week's mailbag, and what question marks remain with
training camp one month away. It's Cardinals Cover two, Episode
eight ninety six, and it starts now.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Welcome to Cardinals Cover two.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
POA Baker, What Heart? What rent? This guy's unbelievable.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Cardinals Cover two is presented by Hyundai, proud partner of
the Arizona Cardinals, and by Arizona Cardinals Podcast. Visit Azycardinals
dot com slash podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
He's at the ten half of five. He's it again.
Some more Hurry magic whow Here's Craig Griolu. This is
when you know you've reached the dead period of the
off season, at least in terms of activity within the building.
It's when you can count the number of vehicles on
(01:08):
two hands. At least that's what it was when I
parked here this morning.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
When I can park near the entrance, yes.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
You don't have to walk.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
I don't have to park at the park next door
and walks in the heat.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
It is nice darn near empty inside the Dignity Health
Arizona Cardinals Training Center.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
And that's except for us.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Except for us, because we don't take days off. But hey,
that's that's what this is for.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
I take days off.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Well, go on vacation, Greg, that's true.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
But I turn my phone off. I'm not going to
respond to your text messages. I'm not bringing my laptop.
I take vacation, so.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
You completely disconnect. I partially disconnect because I still have
my phone. And we know our boss, Darren Urban just
does not disconnect at all because unless he just doesn't
have Wi Fi, which.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
I it is the off season. Players are not in
the building, transactions are not being made, practices are not
going on. So if it is not timely and it
is not urgent, no, I will not be doing anything
work related.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Okay, I need to adopt that philosophy. I think I've
gotten better over the years. I just not. It's hard
when you've got this thing in your left hand. As
I no, I am, I'm I'm proud. Good for you.
So we're down to what days hours before vacation begins.
From there, yet, it's why before Danny escapes and has
(02:33):
some well deserved time off, it's why we brought her
on here on this particular Wednesday, because Burging, if you
did not know, it is my pleasure to be joined
by the glue that holds Cardinals Underground together and makes
it great. A rising star in your profession, someone who
asks great questions. Your understanding and assessment of the game
(02:56):
and team dynamics is top notch. And say any of
that you didn't, I didn't. I just read what was
on Azycardinals dot com in this week's mail bag posted
on Tuesday. Darren typically does it. He's out of town,
out of the country. I think out of the country.
At least he's off. So he's asked us, you still
(03:21):
right this country?
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Yes, Alaska.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
I was thinking of something else. I went out of
the country. Darren stayed within the Continental US, within the
within North America. Yes, I'll put it that way. So
we're filling in. Danny did it this week, Zach Gershman
will do it in two weeks. No mail bag next
week for July fourth, and then I'll do it in
three weeks. And there were several people acknowledging what we've
(03:47):
already known just how knowledgeable and enjoyable Danny Surrek is.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
Very very kind of you say, very kind of those
in the mail bag who had sweet words. I appreciate
everyone who tunes into our content, reads articles, watches video,
however they choose to consume their content of choice. It
was fun doing something a little different and answering questions,
and yeah, I was very appreciative and I'm glad it
doesn't go un Notice that I keep Darren and Paul
(04:15):
in check on Cardinals Underground every week.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
Otherwise that show would just go completely off the rails.
See what you need to do now is you need
to cut and paste these comments and then for your
yearly review, just slap that on the desk in front
of your boss and say, hey, this is how valuable
I am.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
How do you think Darren would feel if I printed
these off and they were waiting for him on his
desk when he returned.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Perfect, I say do it, I say, absolutely do it.
There were great questions, great answers as well, talking about
the offensive line. Kyler Murray, what would be considered a
good season, his tenure on the team compared to other quarterbacks,
which I'm glad you did the research because I saw
that questions, Like I thought, seven years going into year seven,
(05:01):
that's got to be up there. It's not the top,
and you did the research. It's stack. It's mahomes Lamar
Jackson and Josh Allen that are among those that are
as far as tenyured quarterbacks. Not how long you've been
in the league, but how long have you been on
your team specifically that drafted you. It's a small group
(05:23):
of quarterbacks, it is.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
And it's also kind of crazy look back and oh
my gosh, I can't believe it's been seven years, or
for someone who was in Dallas around the time that
Prescott was drafted, like, holy smokes, I can't believe that's
been ten years. But yes, Murray is one of the
longest ten yared quarterbacks who's been with his respective team,
and he's been with the Cardinals the whole time.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
And it's why everyone is excited about this upcoming season
because hey, it's year seven, year three within this offense,
your second full off season, that first full off season
you were still kind of dealing with the knee, but
now you've got two years removed from the acl in
and yeah, there's a lot of excitement going in to
this season, a lot of excitement about the defense. And
(06:05):
that's the one question that I did find interesting on
the mailbag was about the final fifty three man roster.
And we always do this. It's a fun game to
kind of play general manager. How do you go from
ninety players to fifty three? And it's really from ninety
to fifty because you need a kicker, long snapmarn punter,
so you've got to figure out your best fifty. A
(06:27):
year ago, it was split down the middle going into
Week one, twenty five offense, twenty five on defense. But
how much time in this offseason Danny have we talked
about the defensive additions to where he had someone ask you,
can you potentially go a little bit heavier defensively because
you've got so much talent and if you don't want
(06:48):
to lose that talent, and if you think you might
be able to sneak them to the practice squad, are
you willing to take that risk.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
It's a discussion that's been ongoing this offseason. It was
the first time I really looked at the numbers and
looked at the names from the roster. Week one of
last year. So the way I went about it was
same page as Paul who wrote in this question on
the mailbag. It would not surprise me. In fact, I
think it's very likely that the Cardinals go a little
(07:17):
bit defense heavy on their final roster. Now, it's never
going to be a drastically different number, because I mean,
you're not going to have a difference. Yeah, five or
six players on defense versus offense. That's not how it's
going to work. I wrote it down that I could
see twenty three players on offense and twenty seven on defense.
(07:38):
And where do those two numbers come from. I think
it's likely the Cardinals go from four tight ends last
year to three on the roster and keeping a fourth
on the practice squad, where you can elevate on a
game to game basis, dependent on the game plan and
your opponent and what you're trying to accomplish. Maybe even
later this season, right if players start dealing with injuries
or something and you need a little more help in
(07:59):
the block game. I could see that. So that would
be one of the numbers. Another spot would be wide
receivers going from six to five. That that position is
already going to be such a heavy talking point throughout
training camp of is wide receiver two currently on this
roster and if it's not, who could they possibly bring in?
(08:19):
Or is it where you're going to do a wide
receiver two by committee? Get Zay Jones a little more
involved with Michael Wilson. Do we see Greg Dortch more
heavily involved in the game plan this year? Going from
six to five is still realistic, especially when you need
players on special teams. And then even a little more
specific is where do those two players go on defense?
(08:40):
Defensive line? Is the first place that my mind goes
to is going from six to seven. That is such
a deep room and arguably not only one of the
deepest rooms, but value wise and skill set one of
the deepest. Is when you look at the combination of
experience with proven veterans who are not just vetters because
(09:00):
they've played a you know, a couple of years in
the league, but veterans who have gone and made an
impact it made a difference wherever they have played in
the league. And you've got some young talent that is
on the rise, not even just you know, rookie Walternole
in the third or Darius Robinson, Dante still's going into
year three LJ. Collier, who continues to improve in his
time in Arizona. With the rotation that defensive cornator Nick
(09:24):
Ralis likes to utilize, I can see carrying an extra
defensive lineman this year. And then I was thinking, okay,
where else do you go for defense? Like I could
understand maybe outside linebacker, right, maybe middle linebacker if you
still have questions, but the numbers that the Cardinals carried
in those spots last year still seem realistic. I actually
went to the cornerbacks, which is another position that we
(09:46):
have already talked about, is going to be exciting to
watch the competition in training camp when you've got the
number of bodies in there and how many do you carry?
And those were kind of the two positions on defense
that I could think, Okay, if we're going to have
more players on defense and offense, where does it make
the most sense. And I could see it going from
six to seven defensive linemen and also six to seven
(10:06):
defensive backs.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Defensive backs because it's such a young group, and then
you factor in special teams and okay, most of those
dbs have a role on special teams.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
It's hard because like I was looking at the safety room,
somebody like rookie Keaton Crawford, who is a name that's
come up throughout camp, a name that has come up
when talking about special teams a lot already. Well, the
Cardinals had four on their roster last year, Buddha Baker,
Jalen Thompson, Rabbit Taylor Demisson, and Joey Blunt, who was
an ACE on special teams last year? Were you right?
(10:39):
So I kind of opened it up a little more broader.
That also provides more of an opportunity for rookie cornerback
Denzel Burke out of Ohio State, somebody else who's already
been mentioned with special teams. So I kind of lump
the DB's together in that sense because we already have
to do that when you've got cornerback Garrett Williams who's
playing with the safeties a lot of the time. So
it's just kind of all together. I don't know if
(11:00):
it will specifically, I guess, be a cornerback or safety
or how they're going to be utilized, but I would
think that those extra spots would go to the defensive
line in the corner or the defensive backs D line.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
No question because of the depth there a little bit
unknown with Justin Jones and Blaal Nichols, and then two
players that I think we've all kind of taken for
granted Dante Stills, who's been your most consistent, healthiest defensive
lineman the last two seasons, and then LJ. Collier, who
was steady last season after basically missing all of that
(11:33):
first season with the Arizona Cardinals. And then I've always
been of the opinion, based off of that depth, that
maybe we see more four man fronts, more of a
four to three as opposed to a three to four.
Got that rotation, and then okay, maybe you expect a
little bit more out of your d line. Could you
(11:53):
go less at outside linebacker because you've got Darius Robinson,
You've got Jordan Burgh to Jordan Burch outside linebacker. But
Birch and Darius Robbins basically have the same body type.
I mean, it's they are darn near mirror images of
one another. And you've got d rob with his hand
in the dirt and Jordan Burch standing outside. You could
(12:17):
very well, I would say interchangeable. But if you can
get a little bit more of a pass rush from
a defensive end or that hand in the dirt guy,
then maybe you don't need so much of a rotation
opposite of Josh Sweat at outside lineback.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
That was also an answer to a similar question in
the mail bag, and that was more about depth and
where I think maybe the stronger depth rooms are right now.
I shouldn't say stronger, maybe more solidified defensive line. That
that room fields set and it was offensive line, it
was outside linebackers was where I was talking about in
the outside linebackers. It's just it's still filled with questions.
(12:52):
Josh Sweat as a starter, guaranteed, no if ands or
butts about that. Who's going to be starting opposite of him?
What type of rotation are they going to use? We
can make the assumption that Sweat is not going to
be rotated out, given his talent, his skill set, and
the money that you paid him to come in when
he signed a four year deal this offseason. Is that
a spot where the Cardinals can have one less body
(13:14):
than they did last year because you're going to be
able to rely on a more fortified front, some defensive
linemen who can also get into the backfield, who can
take down the quarterback, who can force the ball out
of a quarterback's hand much faster and allow the dbs
to make a few more plays and pick the ball off.
That's a position where it wouldn't surprise me if there
(13:35):
is a cut or something. That is it necessarily what
we have talked about at this point, and that's such
an interesting position already of players like Xavi and Collins
who don't just bull rush, they are asked to play
multiple positions, drop back and to coverage. There's just a
lot of question marks around players who we saw some
(13:56):
sparks from right, some flashes last year, but nothing consistent right.
There's a reason they chose to make that the position
room where they put the most amount of money in
free agency with Sweat and continuing to draft in that
position with Jordan Burch a Day two draft pick. So
that's going to be interesting. When I was also looking
at the numbers, offensive line is a continuous topic, right.
(14:18):
Everyone wants to talk about right guard, understandably, so off
Will Hernandez was the starter last year, remains a free agent,
and Isaiah Adams as a rookie played in roughly fifteen games,
started five of them, so he got a good amount
of experience. It's a matter of how he bolt up enough,
is he understanding enough, is he able to go against
some of the biggest defensive linemen in the league on
a consistent basis as a starter. And that's where you
(14:40):
and I vary a little bit on what we're expecting
right now. Is I believe that is Adam's job to lose?
And you feel differently, But when you're looking at the
players they brought in, someone like Royce Newman who played
one game last year, two the year prior in twenty
twenty three, that doesn't scream at time kind of experience.
(15:01):
So just because he's been in the league for a
handful of years don't necessarily mean he's going and he's
able to take Adam Spott, who has experience in this
system with a staff that likes to develop their own players.
And then when you start to expand all on your
look at the numbers, I don't know how realistic it
is that you would keep two swing tackles and Christian
Jones and Calvin Beachum.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Nine offensive linemen is the number a year ago? Can
you go one less? I think I think you're that's
that's a little dicey for me considering agreed, you hopefully
don't rotate offensive lineman, but you always want to have
a plan B. And then I love when we disagree
here on Cardinals Cover two because it's a great back
(15:41):
and forth. Never take it personal. And it's again a
different perspective because you and I at the start of
OTA's way back on May twenty first asked what we
wanted to see, who we wanted to see on the field,
and then we got into the competition of the discussion
about competition at right guard, and you've maintained that it's
Adam's position to lose, which I don't technically disagree with.
(16:04):
But now coming off of OTA's in mini camp, and
we didn't see during the open portion of practice eleven
on eleven, but what we did see were how guys
were lining up during individual position drills, whether that's cornerbacks,
wide receivers, wide receivers. Who's the first in line that's
typically wide receiver one, it's Marvin Harrison Junior. How are
(16:27):
the offensive linemen paired together, working side by side, And
more times than not during the open portion of practice,
it was Royce Newman lined up next to Jonah Williams.
It was Isaiah Adams next to Christian Jones. So that's
kind of where to me, there is a little bit
(16:48):
more of a question mark at right guard. Is it
Adams's job to lose? I think we can debate that.
But someone is on day one of training camp for
that first eleven on eleven, someone during that open portion
of practice, the first open practice on July twenty fourth,
when we can finally say everything that we've seen, who's
(17:09):
that first unit? Now could change the next day, the
next week, but who's that first guy? At least for me,
I see it based off what I've seen so far,
it's gonna be Royce Newman.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
Is Evan Brown your backup center? Your starting left guard?
Just yes or no? Yes or no?
Speaker 1 (17:29):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (17:30):
No?
Speaker 3 (17:31):
You would move your starting left guard to be your
backup center? Heaven forbid something happened. I wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
I wouldn't move. Oh, I see what you're saying, like
he's your starting left guard and.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Then say your backup center.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
See, I don't like. This is what I don't like
when it comes to offensive line. I don't like moving
a lot of peace.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
Just yes or no?
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Is he?
Speaker 3 (17:50):
Is he your backup center? If something happens happens to
forro Hold in a game, are you moving your starting
left guard to center.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Based on again what I saw doing? The answer is yes.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
I don't like the fact that the answer that's that's
my point. The answer is no, He's not your backup center.
So the fact that when for Hoole was out, it
was Evan Brown taking snaps at center during an open
portion of practice tells me. You take everything with a
grain of salt at this point in the off season.
So you are more gung ho on seeing you know,
Isaiah Adams practicing with Christian Jones as the second team
(18:22):
and sure you can take something from that. I don't
take a lot from the combinations that we see. The
whole point of this point in the off season is
seeing who works well together. They know what they have
in Adams. What are they have in someone like Royce Newman.
How are you gonna know if you're not having him
get any reps with the first teamers at all. So
I don't read as heavy into what we saw throughout
(18:43):
OTAs or mini camp when it comes to combinations on
the offensive line, that for me is going to start
more in a training camp That's why I am still
it is Adam's job to lose because it was his
job at the end of the season.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
And that's fair because let's also not forget what the
new offensive line coach in Justin Frye, does. He have
a different viewpoint on Again, it's not who's the best
right guard? To your point, who's working well together? Because
that's an entire unit from left to right and in particular,
whether it's the left side or the right side, how
does the center tackle work with that particular guard on
(19:20):
the left side or the right side. And maybe you're
not quote unquote the best right guard, but you're the
best amongst those other four. So we're gonna go with
Isaiah Adams over Royce Newman or vice versa. Who are
the best five together? You don't need all pros at
every single position. Hopefully you have one at left tack
(19:41):
with Paras Shawntson Junior. But again, the cohesion and that
chemistry figure like a with a everyone on a string
and you pull one way and everyone goes. Pull the
other way, everyone goes. So you don't have a knot
to keep up this metaphor on one side or the other.
It is going to be fascinating to see how that
(20:02):
plays out. And to your point, maybe on Thursday open
practice it's Isaiah Adams and then the next day at
someone else, But maybe you see someone else at a
tackle spot.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
You're never gonna know if you're only having Adams go
with the first teamers, right, So you have to take
everything with a grain of salt, And given what we
saw last year, I would think would be likely again
that Evan Brown would not be your true starting or
your true backup center and having to move multiple positions around,
even though he has experience there. Your point about everybody
(20:33):
moving along a string is also why I'm not it
doesn't feel like I'm as concerned maybe as a lot
of people feel about guard. I mean, four of your
five starters are returning on the offensive line, and your
fifth being Adams, is somebody who has a good amount
of experience last year. You want to talk about right
(20:53):
tackle John William's health, that's absolutely fair miss majority of
last season. We did see him in a limited fashion
throughout OTA's in mini camp, so that is a very
good sign. But this offensive line, they weren't a liability
like there shouldn't be. People should not be up in
arms about it, and I know it was a discussion
around the draft, and that makes sense when you want
to continue, so you're always going to want to look
(21:13):
at offensive linemen. Offense was the main focal point last offseason.
They got to a good point where they feel comfortable.
It was defense this year, and so it made more
sense with not only positions of need, but skill set
of the players to really focus on defense in this
year's draft. This is an offensive line who's blocked for
a thousand yard rushroom back to back years, so they're
(21:35):
not a liability. Is where I feel is I'm not
up in arms the way some people are about the
interior guard spot.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
And then of course we got to bring up because
he's your favorite, John Gaines is here your backup center?
Is your backup interior guard? What do you do with
a John Gaines who has history with Justin Fry back
to their days together at UCLA. So it's not like
a new voice in that offensive line room, not knowing
(22:03):
everyone in the room. Games might have a little bit
of a leg up based off of past history over
a Hayden Connor who's coming in brand new. So yeah,
it's you want the best five and then figure out,
all right, how many extras do we keep? And I
think we're both in agreement. You try to keep at
(22:23):
least nine on the final fifty three.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
Yeah, when I was going through the MAILBI questions, I
couldn't justify taking one of those numbers away.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
You mentioned the health of Jonah Williams, and it was
good to see him out there during OTA's and mini camp.
The one and it's a wild card when we talk
about outside linebacker. But correct me if I'm wrong. The
only player of the ninety on the roster that we
did not see on the field at all, didn't see
go through drills, didn't see working on the side was
(22:52):
b Jo Jolari. Correct. Correct, And that's the one name
that we were both in agreement back in May that
we wanted to see on the field. And again he
still maybe was maybe it was unrealistic to see him
on the field or even on the side, But that's
the one quote unquote absence. He was in the building,
but we didn't see him because he's still We forget
(23:13):
August was when he tore the ACL so he's not
quite a year removed. And does it really matter right
now as opposed to training camp in the start of
the regular season.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
I don't know the extent to what they're going to do,
but I do know that Ojilari is going to the
Sack Summon in Las Vegas this weekend with Max Crosby's
going to be there with Kalas Campbell and Daries Robinson.
So he's healthy enough to go and do some sort
of exercise there. So I'm not sure if Ojelauri not
participating in OT's in mini camp was rehab related or
(23:44):
being on the field or being in front of the
media or whatever it was. He's seemingly healthy enough to go,
which is a great sign. It's just a question of
why was he not out there and why was he
not working out on the side. Now that's not to
say he's not rehabbing or anything like that. I'm not
and blying that whatsoever. But yeah, it was interesting that
the one player we did not see in any facet
(24:05):
throughout the off season programs as a player who got
hurt almost a year ago, that this defense is seemingly
relying on to come and pick up where he left off.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
And what do you do it outside linebacker? Can you
count on bj or is it become a wild card.
And the other two players that are a little bit
of an unknown, although they were spotted at some point
during the offseason working out on the side. Going back
to the defensive line, Justin Jones and Blall Nichols, where
are they, Because where we are able to watch OTAs
(24:35):
in Mini camp are we are front row? We are
basically closer than front row of where the defensive linemen
are working. And there was no Justin Jones, Noble All Nichols.
They are on the other side of the field. But
I did not see either one of them participate in
an on field drill.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
Justin Jones wasn't participating at all throughout OTS or Mini camp.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Not that that's unlimited now he was working out.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
On the Yes, if I'm remembering correctly, I'd have to
go back and look through my tweets.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Now.
Speaker 3 (25:05):
I think there was a point, whether it was OTS
or Mini camp, where Justin Jones was out there in
a limited fashion. Balald Nichols was not. So Jones was
dealing with the triceps early last year. They played it
combined nine games last season, the two of them. That
is going to be interesting because you've got a pretty
fortified defensive line room. This time last year, when Jones
was brought in, he's expected he was a starter until
(25:27):
he got hurt. So where do you fall now when
you're competing against a Dalvin Tomlinson, a healthy Darius Robinson,
LJ Caller, and Dante Stills who have continued to improve.
The big question mark is blond Nichols, who was dealing
with a neck stinger. And it's not to say it's
not possible he won't be ready for training camp. The
fact that he was still working on the side and
(25:49):
was not, at least during the open portion, was not
participating to what we saw. Could that be telling to
still be dealing with that all these months later? Something
we'll have to see. I don't know if he's gonna
be ready for training camp.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
And by the way, all this conversation here in late
June could be deemed irrelevant once the pads are put
on in training camp, because that's the number of times
we heard Jonathan Gannon talk about wanting to see these
guys play football in pads. When you can really evaluate
(26:24):
whether that's one on one or nine on seven or
eleven on eleven, how do you hold up whether that's
an offensive lineman or a defensivelignment or an outside linebacker.
Can you move the guy in front of you when
you're actually going full speed in pads as opposed to
when you're just kind of going through the motions out
here during the summer. So when the pads come on
(26:46):
and the truly evaluation, that's I think all these questions
that we've been talking about all off season long, we'll
get a better idea that first padded practice and then
however many more they have, and then of course preseason
and the joint practice at the Denver Broncos. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Absolutely, That's why you know, coaches keep telling us they
gotta wait for.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Pats to come on the fifty three man roster conversation
and you bring it up the tight end position going
one less. I want to talk about that because you
can very easily go one less because that's basically what
this team did a year ago with Travis Vocollect being
inactive on game day until later in the season. But
(27:27):
as much as this offense runs two and three tight
end sets, I'd be curious if you can really take
that gamble again this season that you're going to be
healthy at the tight end room to where you can
go or risk having just three and utilize that practice
squad as someone that is your emergency tight end. I
(27:51):
don't know how they feel about Vocalect, but they felt
good enough for him to be on the fifty three
man roster to be kind of that in case an
emergency tight end. Did that change based off of how
Elijah Higgins performed tip Ryman performed. I mean, we know
Tray's he's set, but if you're going to go twelve
thirteen personnel, someone gets hurt and that would be a
(28:17):
position room. I just don't know based off how this
offense works. That's why I like wide receiver going one less,
because you're gonna run more tight end sets or use
a running back more than you are a wide receiver.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
Perhaps, I think going forward last year was a lot
about Higgins, who was new to the position. He was
a wide receiver in college, and you could tell he
was definitely getting his legs under him right, getting his
feet wet, and you could see the progression as a
pass catcher and a little bit as a blocker last
year and tip Ryman, who was a rookie and didn't
really know what you had in him. He was a
blocker in college. He's been used primarily as a blocker
(28:52):
with the Cardinals so far in one year, and been
a little vocal about wanting to be a more consistent
pass catcher. Didn't have a lot of opportunities last year.
When you've got two of your four players with question marks,
makes sense you're going to keep Travis Vocolock, who's been
in the league a little bit longer. I don't think
that's as necessary this year. I'd have to go back
and look and see how many times are they truly
(29:12):
in thirteen personnel And if you aren't thirteen, do you
still need an extra tight end? Because what good does
it make Vocaluck if he was inactive, that makes no
difference right in terms of having him on the bench.
If someone gets hurt during the game, he can't put
on a uniform and go play. So to me, that's
an easy number where if you think he's going to
clear waivers, you can put him on the practice squad
(29:33):
and elevate him when you need to having him on
the roster. To have him in active, does you know
good if somebody gets hurt during the game, they were
essentially just playing with three tight ends.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Anyway, it's a good point as far as having that
veteran as just in case because of the uncertainty with
Higgins who's still brand new to the position in tip
Riman as a rookie, okay if you but having them
now maybe feel more comfortable and going lighter at tight end.
By the way, both Higgins and tip Ryman joining Trey
(30:03):
McBride at tight End University in Nashville fifth annual event.
And this is, by the way, this has gotten big
enough to where I was watching NFL Live on ESPN
and there was Laura Rutledge and dan Orlofsky live at
Vanderbilt and all of a sudden, we're now broadcasting the
(30:24):
at least they were on Tuesday broadcasting tight End University.
That is a credit to George Kittle, Travis Kelcey, greg
Olsen who started all this five years ago. To now
it's become a real thing, and I think credit to them.
And then also shows how much more I think teams
are starting to value the tight end position not just
(30:48):
as a safety blanket but now a part of an offense.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
That position has evolved over the last couple of years,
and when you have players of that caliber, showing their
worth and their versatility, that absolutely makes a difference. Look
look at the teams that have had success as of late,
and yes, I mean these have been very good quarterbacks,
but look at the combination. When you've got Jalen Hurts
and Dallas Goddard, when you've got Patrick Mahomes and Travis Kelce,
(31:16):
when you've got brock Party in his connection with George Kittle,
Lamar Jackson and Mark Andrews like you can find the
connection and how much a good true tight end, especially
those that can not only catch but can also block,
can really make a difference and be tough for a
defense to bring to the ground, which we see with
McBride all the time with the amount of tackles he's
(31:38):
shaken off and how many defenders it really takes to
bring him down to the ground. I love the fact
that you've got things like Tennan University in the Sack Summit,
where these players, especially those who are nearing the back
end of their career, are using their knowledge and what
they've learned from veterans and they are helping younger players
in the league. And that's the brotherhood we hear about
(31:58):
with the NFL is this is the offseason. Most of
these players have already done their individual community efforts earlier
in the offseason. Nobody's practicing, nobody's having meetings, and these
players are choosing to spend time with each other that
they don't normally get to because they're on different teams
and they are obviously not going head to head on
the football field. I think it's great that Higgins is
(32:18):
out there, so is Ryman with McBride, and they're all
having that experience together.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
One of the while, as they were ESPN was broadcasting,
they were showing some file footage and there was Travis
Kelsey surrounded by a bunch of fellow tight ends and
you could see Tip Ryman in the background and all
taped up ready to go, but just his focus and
his attention all centered on what Kelsey was saying in
(32:43):
the moment, and that's a perfect player to look for advice.
And George Kittle was on set and he was bringing
up exactly what you were talking about as far as
if you look at teams, playoff teams, super Bowl winners,
even going back to the Patriot and Rob Gronkowski, tell
me a Super Bowl winner that didn't have a very good, borderline,
(33:07):
elite tight end that wasn't just your third leading receiver,
but maybe your first or second and a focal point
of your offense. I don't know off the top of
my head if you can find a Super Bowl champion
that does not have that position, and I think it's
why the Cardinals found one in Trey McBride and why
(33:28):
he was your leading receiver a year ago.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
Twofold. Yes, all those reasons why he was leading receiver.
He's very good. I mean, there's no doubt about that.
With his catching ability and his shaking off tackles. He
is tough to bring down. He is reliable. That's also
low though, Like look at the fact he was your
number one receiver because who else was producing on a
consistent basis. Marvin Harrison Junior had a very good rookie year.
(33:53):
It was not consistent, whether that was on him, whether
that was on the play call, multiple games where he
was alive in the first quarter and then until the fourth. Right,
So it's twofold. Absolutely McBride has been your number one
receiver and has been playing like it. But let's also
remember that we've talked about the wide receivers having struggled.
You're not gonna have You're not gonna have to, you know,
(34:14):
twist my arm to talk about the difference of tight
end can make. I mean, didn't win a super Bowl,
but you're looking at someone who grew up in the
Jason Wynn era with the Dallas Cowboy. So that's all
I've really known.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
McBride had one hundred and forty seven targets last season,
Harrison one hundred and sixteen. I don't know if those
numbers change drastically now. The number of catches, the receptions
for Marvin, yes, should absolutely increase, And if they do,
then maybe Kyler's not looking for eighty five all the
(34:46):
time like he was because that connection just wasn't there
with Marvin. And it's we're gonna have games in which
maybe there is Marvin going off for one hundred yards
and we like what happened to Trey, Well, did you
win or not? That's what If you asked Drew Petsing,
did you win the game? And if you did, then
it doesn't matter. If you didn't, it's like, okay, well
(35:08):
then what do you have to do? And I think
that's what we're looking at with third eight win season, Yeah,
Trey was fantastic, but it didn't get you the requisite
number of wins to get you into the postseason. That's
why we go back to that wide receiver conversation. Yeah,
a lot, a lot of weight is on the shoulders
of Marvin Harrison Junior to be productive and figure out
(35:31):
how to get him more involved. I wouldn't say number
of routes or number of targets, but the connection whether
it's on him, whether it's on Kyler or whatever, but
get possession of the football and it makes something happen
and find your way into the end zone.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
How too more efficient? You know defenses are going to
have tight coverage on him. That is going to be
a main focal point. You have to find a way
to continue to produce. You look at other teams and
I know that he's only rookie, So I'm not saying
that this was the level that was expected it from
him off the bat. You look at other teams and
Justin Jefferson finds a way to get it done, Jamar
Chase finds a way to get it done. Ceedee Lamb.
So if you're going to go out there and you
(36:08):
know be a number one receiver, your team. Everyone involved
needs to find a way to make you more efficient,
and when you're looking at the numbers, theoretically it should
be easier to get somebody outside a little more open
than somebody like McBride who's running in the middle of
the field and he's having to get past linebackers and
safeties and a lot more bodies.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
The interesting note on Trey and I didn't know this,
but before he came on set, ESPN flashed this graphic.
Since twenty twenty two, Trey McBride has the lowest drop
rate of any pass catcher, ahead of Aman Ross, Saint Brown,
ahead of Justin Jefferson. According to ESPN Danny, since twenty
(36:49):
twenty two, Trey McBride has two drops on two hundred
and ninety six targets.
Speaker 3 (36:55):
One of them was that first game where McBride and
Murray were playing together. Murray came back, do you remember,
I think it was maybe honestly the first target for
Murray and McBride, and it kind of hit him, like,
I think, right in the face, right hand, stunned. Yes,
that was one. I can't even think of the other.
It's very impressive, I mean, now that's why he caught
all that money.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
You know, how do you define a drop versus where
you covered? Was it tight coverage? Was there a defender
in the area? Did he get a hand on the ball?
Speaker 2 (37:22):
Doubt?
Speaker 3 (37:22):
I doubt the one in LA.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
That's what I was thinking about too.
Speaker 3 (37:24):
I don't I don't know that that counts. That bounced
off his face.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Man, Yeah, and there was. I wouldn't consider that a drop. Again,
how do you define drop? But I just found that
interrot like two drops.
Speaker 3 (37:34):
On almost so few that I can tell you what
the first one was.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Yeah. By the way, dan Orlowsky a big fan of
Trey McBride his comments when Tray was on set because
it wasn't that long ago when Tray was a young
tight end on the rise. Tray now is one of
the best tight ends period. He's not on the rise.
You talk about top tight ends, you have to include
Trey McBride in that conversation with George K'll Travis Kelcey.
(38:02):
It's you know, top three, top five, And I would
love to know an argument where you if you don't
have Trey McBride in that conversation, even though he's only
done it. He's only been a starter for one full season.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
Well, there is no argument anymore. He got paid up
until Kittle decided to essentially get pennies more than and
he was the highest paid tight end NFL history. There
is no more argument. There is none.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
If you produce, you get paid. Trey McBride got paid
and well desered for him, and now it's just okay,
does he have any more help? Offensively meaning Marvin Harrison Jr.
And now I'm not discounting James Connor, but you're talking
about a pass catcher, not a running back in this situation.
How many hours Danny vacation days.
Speaker 3 (38:46):
I do before then?
Speaker 1 (38:48):
By the way, programming note, as everyone is starting to
disappear for a little while Cardinals Cover two is not
going anywhere, we'll begin starting next week our annual offseat
in tradition of looking around the NFC West, see what's
been happening with the Rams, Seahawks and forty nine ers.
It's been busy, not only here in Arizona, but also
Los Angeles, Seattle, and San Francisco as well. Danny, always
(39:12):
a pleasure. Enjoy the vacation, see you next month. Enjoy
your Fourth of July holiday, and training camp will be
right around the corner. Can't wait disconnect, Danny.
Speaker 3 (39:23):
Don't go tell me twice.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
I know. I'll work on that. On my end, on
that note Bird gang, we will put all it on.
This edition of Cardinals Cover two presented by Hundai, probably
partner of the Arizona Cardinals. As always, special thanks to
our executive producer Jim Mama Hundre, our associate producer Cody Fincher,
who remains on vacation for Danny. Sirek, I'm Craig Riolu.
We'll talk to you next time here on Cardinals Cover
two
If Trey McBride isn't the best title in the game,
then he's certainly one of the best. And that's not
us Talking bird Gang. Danny Surrek joins me. We discussed
the goings on at tight End University, the goings on
in this week's mailbag, and what question marks remain with
training camp one month away. It's Cardinals Cover two, Episode
eight ninety six, and it starts now.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Welcome to Cardinals Cover two.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
POA Baker, What Heart? What rent? This guy's unbelievable.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Cardinals Cover two is presented by Hyundai, proud partner of
the Arizona Cardinals, and by Arizona Cardinals Podcast. Visit Azycardinals
dot com slash podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
He's at the ten half of five. He's it again.
Some more Hurry magic whow Here's Craig Griolu. This is
when you know you've reached the dead period of the
off season, at least in terms of activity within the building.
It's when you can count the number of vehicles on
(01:08):
two hands. At least that's what it was when I
parked here this morning.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
When I can park near the entrance, yes.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
You don't have to walk.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
I don't have to park at the park next door
and walks in the heat.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
It is nice darn near empty inside the Dignity Health
Arizona Cardinals Training Center.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
And that's except for us.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Except for us, because we don't take days off. But hey,
that's that's what this is for.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
I take days off.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Well, go on vacation, Greg, that's true.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
But I turn my phone off. I'm not going to
respond to your text messages. I'm not bringing my laptop.
I take vacation, so.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
You completely disconnect. I partially disconnect because I still have
my phone. And we know our boss, Darren Urban just
does not disconnect at all because unless he just doesn't
have Wi Fi, which.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
I it is the off season. Players are not in
the building, transactions are not being made, practices are not
going on. So if it is not timely and it
is not urgent, no, I will not be doing anything
work related.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Okay, I need to adopt that philosophy. I think I've
gotten better over the years. I just not. It's hard
when you've got this thing in your left hand. As
I no, I am, I'm I'm proud. Good for you.
So we're down to what days hours before vacation begins.
From there, yet, it's why before Danny escapes and has
(02:33):
some well deserved time off, it's why we brought her
on here on this particular Wednesday, because Burging, if you
did not know, it is my pleasure to be joined
by the glue that holds Cardinals Underground together and makes
it great. A rising star in your profession, someone who
asks great questions. Your understanding and assessment of the game
(02:56):
and team dynamics is top notch. And say any of
that you didn't, I didn't. I just read what was
on Azycardinals dot com in this week's mail bag posted
on Tuesday. Darren typically does it. He's out of town,
out of the country. I think out of the country.
At least he's off. So he's asked us, you still
(03:21):
right this country?
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Yes, Alaska.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
I was thinking of something else. I went out of
the country. Darren stayed within the Continental US, within the
within North America. Yes, I'll put it that way. So
we're filling in. Danny did it this week, Zach Gershman
will do it in two weeks. No mail bag next
week for July fourth, and then I'll do it in
three weeks. And there were several people acknowledging what we've
(03:47):
already known just how knowledgeable and enjoyable Danny Surrek is.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
Very very kind of you say, very kind of those
in the mail bag who had sweet words. I appreciate
everyone who tunes into our content, reads articles, watches video,
however they choose to consume their content of choice. It
was fun doing something a little different and answering questions,
and yeah, I was very appreciative and I'm glad it
doesn't go un Notice that I keep Darren and Paul
(04:15):
in check on Cardinals Underground every week.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
Otherwise that show would just go completely off the rails.
See what you need to do now is you need
to cut and paste these comments and then for your
yearly review, just slap that on the desk in front
of your boss and say, hey, this is how valuable
I am.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
How do you think Darren would feel if I printed
these off and they were waiting for him on his
desk when he returned.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Perfect, I say do it, I say, absolutely do it.
There were great questions, great answers as well, talking about
the offensive line. Kyler Murray, what would be considered a
good season, his tenure on the team compared to other quarterbacks,
which I'm glad you did the research because I saw
that questions, Like I thought, seven years going into year seven,
(05:01):
that's got to be up there. It's not the top,
and you did the research. It's stack. It's mahomes Lamar
Jackson and Josh Allen that are among those that are
as far as tenyured quarterbacks. Not how long you've been
in the league, but how long have you been on
your team specifically that drafted you. It's a small group
(05:23):
of quarterbacks, it is.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
And it's also kind of crazy look back and oh
my gosh, I can't believe it's been seven years, or
for someone who was in Dallas around the time that
Prescott was drafted, like, holy smokes, I can't believe that's
been ten years. But yes, Murray is one of the
longest ten yared quarterbacks who's been with his respective team,
and he's been with the Cardinals the whole time.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
And it's why everyone is excited about this upcoming season
because hey, it's year seven, year three within this offense,
your second full off season, that first full off season
you were still kind of dealing with the knee, but
now you've got two years removed from the acl in
and yeah, there's a lot of excitement going in to
this season, a lot of excitement about the defense. And
(06:05):
that's the one question that I did find interesting on
the mailbag was about the final fifty three man roster.
And we always do this. It's a fun game to
kind of play general manager. How do you go from
ninety players to fifty three? And it's really from ninety
to fifty because you need a kicker, long snapmarn punter,
so you've got to figure out your best fifty. A
(06:27):
year ago, it was split down the middle going into
Week one, twenty five offense, twenty five on defense. But
how much time in this offseason Danny have we talked
about the defensive additions to where he had someone ask you,
can you potentially go a little bit heavier defensively because
you've got so much talent and if you don't want
(06:48):
to lose that talent, and if you think you might
be able to sneak them to the practice squad, are
you willing to take that risk.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
It's a discussion that's been ongoing this offseason. It was
the first time I really looked at the numbers and
looked at the names from the roster. Week one of
last year. So the way I went about it was
same page as Paul who wrote in this question on
the mailbag. It would not surprise me. In fact, I
think it's very likely that the Cardinals go a little
(07:17):
bit defense heavy on their final roster. Now, it's never
going to be a drastically different number, because I mean,
you're not going to have a difference. Yeah, five or
six players on defense versus offense. That's not how it's
going to work. I wrote it down that I could
see twenty three players on offense and twenty seven on defense.
(07:38):
And where do those two numbers come from. I think
it's likely the Cardinals go from four tight ends last
year to three on the roster and keeping a fourth
on the practice squad, where you can elevate on a
game to game basis, dependent on the game plan and
your opponent and what you're trying to accomplish. Maybe even
later this season, right if players start dealing with injuries
or something and you need a little more help in
(07:59):
the block game. I could see that. So that would
be one of the numbers. Another spot would be wide
receivers going from six to five. That that position is
already going to be such a heavy talking point throughout
training camp of is wide receiver two currently on this
roster and if it's not, who could they possibly bring in?
(08:19):
Or is it where you're going to do a wide
receiver two by committee? Get Zay Jones a little more
involved with Michael Wilson. Do we see Greg Dortch more
heavily involved in the game plan this year? Going from
six to five is still realistic, especially when you need
players on special teams. And then even a little more
specific is where do those two players go on defense?
(08:40):
Defensive line? Is the first place that my mind goes
to is going from six to seven. That is such
a deep room and arguably not only one of the
deepest rooms, but value wise and skill set one of
the deepest. Is when you look at the combination of
experience with proven veterans who are not just vetters because
(09:00):
they've played a you know, a couple of years in
the league, but veterans who have gone and made an
impact it made a difference wherever they have played in
the league. And you've got some young talent that is
on the rise, not even just you know, rookie Walternole
in the third or Darius Robinson, Dante still's going into
year three LJ. Collier, who continues to improve in his
time in Arizona. With the rotation that defensive cornator Nick
(09:24):
Ralis likes to utilize, I can see carrying an extra
defensive lineman this year. And then I was thinking, okay,
where else do you go for defense? Like I could
understand maybe outside linebacker, right, maybe middle linebacker if you
still have questions, but the numbers that the Cardinals carried
in those spots last year still seem realistic. I actually
went to the cornerbacks, which is another position that we
(09:46):
have already talked about, is going to be exciting to
watch the competition in training camp when you've got the
number of bodies in there and how many do you carry?
And those were kind of the two positions on defense
that I could think, Okay, if we're going to have
more players on defense and offense, where does it make
the most sense. And I could see it going from
six to seven defensive linemen and also six to seven
(10:06):
defensive backs.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Defensive backs because it's such a young group, and then
you factor in special teams and okay, most of those
dbs have a role on special teams.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
It's hard because like I was looking at the safety room,
somebody like rookie Keaton Crawford, who is a name that's
come up throughout camp, a name that has come up
when talking about special teams a lot already. Well, the
Cardinals had four on their roster last year, Buddha Baker,
Jalen Thompson, Rabbit Taylor Demisson, and Joey Blunt, who was
an ACE on special teams last year? Were you right?
(10:39):
So I kind of opened it up a little more broader.
That also provides more of an opportunity for rookie cornerback
Denzel Burke out of Ohio State, somebody else who's already
been mentioned with special teams. So I kind of lump
the DB's together in that sense because we already have
to do that when you've got cornerback Garrett Williams who's
playing with the safeties a lot of the time. So
it's just kind of all together. I don't know if
(11:00):
it will specifically, I guess, be a cornerback or safety
or how they're going to be utilized, but I would
think that those extra spots would go to the defensive
line in the corner or the defensive backs D line.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
No question because of the depth there a little bit
unknown with Justin Jones and Blaal Nichols, and then two
players that I think we've all kind of taken for
granted Dante Stills, who's been your most consistent, healthiest defensive
lineman the last two seasons, and then LJ. Collier, who
was steady last season after basically missing all of that
(11:33):
first season with the Arizona Cardinals. And then I've always
been of the opinion, based off of that depth, that
maybe we see more four man fronts, more of a
four to three as opposed to a three to four.
Got that rotation, and then okay, maybe you expect a
little bit more out of your d line. Could you
(11:53):
go less at outside linebacker because you've got Darius Robinson,
You've got Jordan Burgh to Jordan Burch outside linebacker. But
Birch and Darius Robbins basically have the same body type.
I mean, it's they are darn near mirror images of
one another. And you've got d rob with his hand
in the dirt and Jordan Burch standing outside. You could
(12:17):
very well, I would say interchangeable. But if you can
get a little bit more of a pass rush from
a defensive end or that hand in the dirt guy,
then maybe you don't need so much of a rotation
opposite of Josh Sweat at outside lineback.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
That was also an answer to a similar question in
the mail bag, and that was more about depth and
where I think maybe the stronger depth rooms are right now.
I shouldn't say stronger, maybe more solidified defensive line. That
that room fields set and it was offensive line, it
was outside linebackers was where I was talking about in
the outside linebackers. It's just it's still filled with questions.
(12:52):
Josh Sweat as a starter, guaranteed, no if ands or
butts about that. Who's going to be starting opposite of him?
What type of rotation are they going to use? We
can make the assumption that Sweat is not going to
be rotated out, given his talent, his skill set, and
the money that you paid him to come in when
he signed a four year deal this offseason. Is that
a spot where the Cardinals can have one less body
(13:14):
than they did last year because you're going to be
able to rely on a more fortified front, some defensive
linemen who can also get into the backfield, who can
take down the quarterback, who can force the ball out
of a quarterback's hand much faster and allow the dbs
to make a few more plays and pick the ball off.
That's a position where it wouldn't surprise me if there
(13:35):
is a cut or something. That is it necessarily what
we have talked about at this point, and that's such
an interesting position already of players like Xavi and Collins
who don't just bull rush, they are asked to play
multiple positions, drop back and to coverage. There's just a
lot of question marks around players who we saw some
(13:56):
sparks from right, some flashes last year, but nothing consistent right.
There's a reason they chose to make that the position
room where they put the most amount of money in
free agency with Sweat and continuing to draft in that
position with Jordan Burch a Day two draft pick. So
that's going to be interesting. When I was also looking
at the numbers, offensive line is a continuous topic, right.
(14:18):
Everyone wants to talk about right guard, understandably, so off
Will Hernandez was the starter last year, remains a free agent,
and Isaiah Adams as a rookie played in roughly fifteen games,
started five of them, so he got a good amount
of experience. It's a matter of how he bolt up enough,
is he understanding enough, is he able to go against
some of the biggest defensive linemen in the league on
a consistent basis as a starter. And that's where you
(14:40):
and I vary a little bit on what we're expecting
right now. Is I believe that is Adam's job to lose?
And you feel differently, But when you're looking at the
players they brought in, someone like Royce Newman who played
one game last year, two the year prior in twenty
twenty three, that doesn't scream at time kind of experience.
(15:01):
So just because he's been in the league for a
handful of years don't necessarily mean he's going and he's
able to take Adam Spott, who has experience in this
system with a staff that likes to develop their own players.
And then when you start to expand all on your
look at the numbers, I don't know how realistic it
is that you would keep two swing tackles and Christian
Jones and Calvin Beachum.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Nine offensive linemen is the number a year ago? Can
you go one less? I think I think you're that's
that's a little dicey for me considering agreed, you hopefully
don't rotate offensive lineman, but you always want to have
a plan B. And then I love when we disagree
here on Cardinals Cover two because it's a great back
(15:41):
and forth. Never take it personal. And it's again a
different perspective because you and I at the start of
OTA's way back on May twenty first asked what we
wanted to see, who we wanted to see on the field,
and then we got into the competition of the discussion
about competition at right guard, and you've maintained that it's
Adam's position to lose, which I don't technically disagree with.
(16:04):
But now coming off of OTA's in mini camp, and
we didn't see during the open portion of practice eleven
on eleven, but what we did see were how guys
were lining up during individual position drills, whether that's cornerbacks,
wide receivers, wide receivers. Who's the first in line that's
typically wide receiver one, it's Marvin Harrison Junior. How are
(16:27):
the offensive linemen paired together, working side by side, And
more times than not during the open portion of practice,
it was Royce Newman lined up next to Jonah Williams.
It was Isaiah Adams next to Christian Jones. So that's
kind of where to me, there is a little bit
(16:48):
more of a question mark at right guard. Is it
Adams's job to lose? I think we can debate that.
But someone is on day one of training camp for
that first eleven on eleven, someone during that open portion
of practice, the first open practice on July twenty fourth,
when we can finally say everything that we've seen, who's
(17:09):
that first unit? Now could change the next day, the
next week, but who's that first guy? At least for me,
I see it based off what I've seen so far,
it's gonna be Royce Newman.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
Is Evan Brown your backup center? Your starting left guard?
Just yes or no? Yes or no?
Speaker 1 (17:29):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (17:30):
No?
Speaker 3 (17:31):
You would move your starting left guard to be your
backup center? Heaven forbid something happened. I wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
I wouldn't move. Oh, I see what you're saying, like
he's your starting left guard and.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Then say your backup center.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
See, I don't like. This is what I don't like
when it comes to offensive line. I don't like moving
a lot of peace.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
Just yes or no?
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Is he?
Speaker 3 (17:50):
Is he your backup center? If something happens happens to
forro Hold in a game, are you moving your starting
left guard to center.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Based on again what I saw doing? The answer is yes.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
I don't like the fact that the answer that's that's
my point. The answer is no, He's not your backup center.
So the fact that when for Hoole was out, it
was Evan Brown taking snaps at center during an open
portion of practice tells me. You take everything with a
grain of salt at this point in the off season.
So you are more gung ho on seeing you know,
Isaiah Adams practicing with Christian Jones as the second team
(18:22):
and sure you can take something from that. I don't
take a lot from the combinations that we see. The
whole point of this point in the off season is
seeing who works well together. They know what they have
in Adams. What are they have in someone like Royce Newman.
How are you gonna know if you're not having him
get any reps with the first teamers at all. So
I don't read as heavy into what we saw throughout
(18:43):
OTAs or mini camp when it comes to combinations on
the offensive line, that for me is going to start
more in a training camp That's why I am still
it is Adam's job to lose because it was his
job at the end of the season.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
And that's fair because let's also not forget what the
new offensive line coach in Justin Frye, does. He have
a different viewpoint on Again, it's not who's the best
right guard? To your point, who's working well together? Because
that's an entire unit from left to right and in particular,
whether it's the left side or the right side, how
does the center tackle work with that particular guard on
(19:20):
the left side or the right side. And maybe you're
not quote unquote the best right guard, but you're the
best amongst those other four. So we're gonna go with
Isaiah Adams over Royce Newman or vice versa. Who are
the best five together? You don't need all pros at
every single position. Hopefully you have one at left tack
(19:41):
with Paras Shawntson Junior. But again, the cohesion and that
chemistry figure like a with a everyone on a string
and you pull one way and everyone goes. Pull the
other way, everyone goes. So you don't have a knot
to keep up this metaphor on one side or the other.
It is going to be fascinating to see how that
(20:02):
plays out. And to your point, maybe on Thursday open
practice it's Isaiah Adams and then the next day at
someone else, But maybe you see someone else at a
tackle spot.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
You're never gonna know if you're only having Adams go
with the first teamers, right, So you have to take
everything with a grain of salt, And given what we
saw last year, I would think would be likely again
that Evan Brown would not be your true starting or
your true backup center and having to move multiple positions around,
even though he has experience there. Your point about everybody
(20:33):
moving along a string is also why I'm not it
doesn't feel like I'm as concerned maybe as a lot
of people feel about guard. I mean, four of your
five starters are returning on the offensive line, and your
fifth being Adams, is somebody who has a good amount
of experience last year. You want to talk about right
(20:53):
tackle John William's health, that's absolutely fair miss majority of
last season. We did see him in a limited fashion
throughout OTA's in mini camp, so that is a very
good sign. But this offensive line, they weren't a liability
like there shouldn't be. People should not be up in
arms about it, and I know it was a discussion
around the draft, and that makes sense when you want
to continue, so you're always going to want to look
(21:13):
at offensive linemen. Offense was the main focal point last offseason.
They got to a good point where they feel comfortable.
It was defense this year, and so it made more
sense with not only positions of need, but skill set
of the players to really focus on defense in this
year's draft. This is an offensive line who's blocked for
a thousand yard rushroom back to back years, so they're
(21:35):
not a liability. Is where I feel is I'm not
up in arms the way some people are about the
interior guard spot.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
And then of course we got to bring up because
he's your favorite, John Gaines is here your backup center?
Is your backup interior guard? What do you do with
a John Gaines who has history with Justin Fry back
to their days together at UCLA. So it's not like
a new voice in that offensive line room, not knowing
(22:03):
everyone in the room. Games might have a little bit
of a leg up based off of past history over
a Hayden Connor who's coming in brand new. So yeah,
it's you want the best five and then figure out,
all right, how many extras do we keep? And I
think we're both in agreement. You try to keep at
(22:23):
least nine on the final fifty three.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
Yeah, when I was going through the MAILBI questions, I
couldn't justify taking one of those numbers away.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
You mentioned the health of Jonah Williams, and it was
good to see him out there during OTA's and mini camp.
The one and it's a wild card when we talk
about outside linebacker. But correct me if I'm wrong. The
only player of the ninety on the roster that we
did not see on the field at all, didn't see
go through drills, didn't see working on the side was
(22:52):
b Jo Jolari. Correct. Correct, And that's the one name
that we were both in agreement back in May that
we wanted to see on the field. And again he
still maybe was maybe it was unrealistic to see him
on the field or even on the side, But that's
the one quote unquote absence. He was in the building,
but we didn't see him because he's still We forget
(23:13):
August was when he tore the ACL so he's not
quite a year removed. And does it really matter right
now as opposed to training camp in the start of
the regular season.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
I don't know the extent to what they're going to do,
but I do know that Ojilari is going to the
Sack Summon in Las Vegas this weekend with Max Crosby's
going to be there with Kalas Campbell and Daries Robinson.
So he's healthy enough to go and do some sort
of exercise there. So I'm not sure if Ojelauri not
participating in OT's in mini camp was rehab related or
(23:44):
being on the field or being in front of the
media or whatever it was. He's seemingly healthy enough to go,
which is a great sign. It's just a question of
why was he not out there and why was he
not working out on the side. Now that's not to
say he's not rehabbing or anything like that. I'm not
and blying that whatsoever. But yeah, it was interesting that
the one player we did not see in any facet
(24:05):
throughout the off season programs as a player who got
hurt almost a year ago, that this defense is seemingly
relying on to come and pick up where he left off.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
And what do you do it outside linebacker? Can you
count on bj or is it become a wild card.
And the other two players that are a little bit
of an unknown, although they were spotted at some point
during the offseason working out on the side. Going back
to the defensive line, Justin Jones and Blall Nichols, where
are they, Because where we are able to watch OTAs
(24:35):
in Mini camp are we are front row? We are
basically closer than front row of where the defensive linemen
are working. And there was no Justin Jones, Noble All Nichols.
They are on the other side of the field. But
I did not see either one of them participate in
an on field drill.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
Justin Jones wasn't participating at all throughout OTS or Mini camp.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Not that that's unlimited now he was working out.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
On the Yes, if I'm remembering correctly, I'd have to
go back and look through my tweets.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Now.
Speaker 3 (25:05):
I think there was a point, whether it was OTS
or Mini camp, where Justin Jones was out there in
a limited fashion. Balald Nichols was not. So Jones was
dealing with the triceps early last year. They played it
combined nine games last season, the two of them. That
is going to be interesting because you've got a pretty
fortified defensive line room. This time last year, when Jones
was brought in, he's expected he was a starter until
(25:27):
he got hurt. So where do you fall now when
you're competing against a Dalvin Tomlinson, a healthy Darius Robinson,
LJ Caller, and Dante Stills who have continued to improve.
The big question mark is blond Nichols, who was dealing
with a neck stinger. And it's not to say it's
not possible he won't be ready for training camp. The
fact that he was still working on the side and
(25:49):
was not, at least during the open portion, was not
participating to what we saw. Could that be telling to
still be dealing with that all these months later? Something
we'll have to see. I don't know if he's gonna
be ready for training camp.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
And by the way, all this conversation here in late
June could be deemed irrelevant once the pads are put
on in training camp, because that's the number of times
we heard Jonathan Gannon talk about wanting to see these
guys play football in pads. When you can really evaluate
(26:24):
whether that's one on one or nine on seven or
eleven on eleven, how do you hold up whether that's
an offensive lineman or a defensivelignment or an outside linebacker.
Can you move the guy in front of you when
you're actually going full speed in pads as opposed to
when you're just kind of going through the motions out
here during the summer. So when the pads come on
(26:46):
and the truly evaluation, that's I think all these questions
that we've been talking about all off season long, we'll
get a better idea that first padded practice and then
however many more they have, and then of course preseason
and the joint practice at the Denver Broncos. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Absolutely, That's why you know, coaches keep telling us they
gotta wait for.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Pats to come on the fifty three man roster conversation
and you bring it up the tight end position going
one less. I want to talk about that because you
can very easily go one less because that's basically what
this team did a year ago with Travis Vocollect being
inactive on game day until later in the season. But
(27:27):
as much as this offense runs two and three tight
end sets, I'd be curious if you can really take
that gamble again this season that you're going to be
healthy at the tight end room to where you can
go or risk having just three and utilize that practice
squad as someone that is your emergency tight end. I
(27:51):
don't know how they feel about Vocalect, but they felt
good enough for him to be on the fifty three
man roster to be kind of that in case an
emergency tight end. Did that change based off of how
Elijah Higgins performed tip Ryman performed. I mean, we know
Tray's he's set, but if you're going to go twelve
thirteen personnel, someone gets hurt and that would be a
(28:17):
position room. I just don't know based off how this
offense works. That's why I like wide receiver going one less,
because you're gonna run more tight end sets or use
a running back more than you are a wide receiver.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
Perhaps, I think going forward last year was a lot
about Higgins, who was new to the position. He was
a wide receiver in college, and you could tell he
was definitely getting his legs under him right, getting his
feet wet, and you could see the progression as a
pass catcher and a little bit as a blocker last
year and tip Ryman, who was a rookie and didn't
really know what you had in him. He was a
blocker in college. He's been used primarily as a blocker
(28:52):
with the Cardinals so far in one year, and been
a little vocal about wanting to be a more consistent
pass catcher. Didn't have a lot of opportunities last year.
When you've got two of your four players with question marks,
makes sense you're going to keep Travis Vocolock, who's been
in the league a little bit longer. I don't think
that's as necessary this year. I'd have to go back
and look and see how many times are they truly
(29:12):
in thirteen personnel And if you aren't thirteen, do you
still need an extra tight end? Because what good does
it make Vocaluck if he was inactive, that makes no
difference right in terms of having him on the bench.
If someone gets hurt during the game, he can't put
on a uniform and go play. So to me, that's
an easy number where if you think he's going to
clear waivers, you can put him on the practice squad
(29:33):
and elevate him when you need to having him on
the roster. To have him in active, does you know
good if somebody gets hurt during the game, they were
essentially just playing with three tight ends.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Anyway, it's a good point as far as having that
veteran as just in case because of the uncertainty with
Higgins who's still brand new to the position in tip
Riman as a rookie, okay if you but having them
now maybe feel more comfortable and going lighter at tight end.
By the way, both Higgins and tip Ryman joining Trey
(30:03):
McBride at tight End University in Nashville fifth annual event.
And this is, by the way, this has gotten big
enough to where I was watching NFL Live on ESPN
and there was Laura Rutledge and dan Orlofsky live at
Vanderbilt and all of a sudden, we're now broadcasting the
(30:24):
at least they were on Tuesday broadcasting tight End University.
That is a credit to George Kittle, Travis Kelcey, greg
Olsen who started all this five years ago. To now
it's become a real thing, and I think credit to them.
And then also shows how much more I think teams
are starting to value the tight end position not just
(30:48):
as a safety blanket but now a part of an offense.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
That position has evolved over the last couple of years,
and when you have players of that caliber, showing their
worth and their versatility, that absolutely makes a difference. Look
look at the teams that have had success as of late,
and yes, I mean these have been very good quarterbacks,
but look at the combination. When you've got Jalen Hurts
and Dallas Goddard, when you've got Patrick Mahomes and Travis Kelce,
(31:16):
when you've got brock Party in his connection with George Kittle,
Lamar Jackson and Mark Andrews like you can find the
connection and how much a good true tight end, especially
those that can not only catch but can also block,
can really make a difference and be tough for a
defense to bring to the ground, which we see with
McBride all the time with the amount of tackles he's
(31:38):
shaken off and how many defenders it really takes to
bring him down to the ground. I love the fact
that you've got things like Tennan University in the Sack Summit,
where these players, especially those who are nearing the back
end of their career, are using their knowledge and what
they've learned from veterans and they are helping younger players
in the league. And that's the brotherhood we hear about
(31:58):
with the NFL is this is the offseason. Most of
these players have already done their individual community efforts earlier
in the offseason. Nobody's practicing, nobody's having meetings, and these
players are choosing to spend time with each other that
they don't normally get to because they're on different teams
and they are obviously not going head to head on
the football field. I think it's great that Higgins is
(32:18):
out there, so is Ryman with McBride, and they're all
having that experience together.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
One of the while, as they were ESPN was broadcasting,
they were showing some file footage and there was Travis
Kelsey surrounded by a bunch of fellow tight ends and
you could see Tip Ryman in the background and all
taped up ready to go, but just his focus and
his attention all centered on what Kelsey was saying in
(32:43):
the moment, and that's a perfect player to look for advice.
And George Kittle was on set and he was bringing
up exactly what you were talking about as far as
if you look at teams, playoff teams, super Bowl winners,
even going back to the Patriot and Rob Gronkowski, tell
me a Super Bowl winner that didn't have a very good, borderline,
(33:07):
elite tight end that wasn't just your third leading receiver,
but maybe your first or second and a focal point
of your offense. I don't know off the top of
my head if you can find a Super Bowl champion
that does not have that position, and I think it's
why the Cardinals found one in Trey McBride and why
(33:28):
he was your leading receiver a year ago.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
Twofold. Yes, all those reasons why he was leading receiver.
He's very good. I mean, there's no doubt about that.
With his catching ability and his shaking off tackles. He
is tough to bring down. He is reliable. That's also
low though, Like look at the fact he was your
number one receiver because who else was producing on a
consistent basis. Marvin Harrison Junior had a very good rookie year.
(33:53):
It was not consistent, whether that was on him, whether
that was on the play call, multiple games where he
was alive in the first quarter and then until the fourth. Right,
So it's twofold. Absolutely McBride has been your number one
receiver and has been playing like it. But let's also
remember that we've talked about the wide receivers having struggled.
You're not gonna have You're not gonna have to, you know,
(34:14):
twist my arm to talk about the difference of tight
end can make. I mean, didn't win a super Bowl,
but you're looking at someone who grew up in the
Jason Wynn era with the Dallas Cowboy. So that's all
I've really known.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
McBride had one hundred and forty seven targets last season,
Harrison one hundred and sixteen. I don't know if those
numbers change drastically now. The number of catches, the receptions
for Marvin, yes, should absolutely increase, And if they do,
then maybe Kyler's not looking for eighty five all the
(34:46):
time like he was because that connection just wasn't there
with Marvin. And it's we're gonna have games in which
maybe there is Marvin going off for one hundred yards
and we like what happened to Trey, Well, did you
win or not? That's what If you asked Drew Petsing,
did you win the game? And if you did, then
it doesn't matter. If you didn't, it's like, okay, well
(35:08):
then what do you have to do? And I think
that's what we're looking at with third eight win season, Yeah,
Trey was fantastic, but it didn't get you the requisite
number of wins to get you into the postseason. That's
why we go back to that wide receiver conversation. Yeah,
a lot, a lot of weight is on the shoulders
of Marvin Harrison Junior to be productive and figure out
(35:31):
how to get him more involved. I wouldn't say number
of routes or number of targets, but the connection whether
it's on him, whether it's on Kyler or whatever, but
get possession of the football and it makes something happen
and find your way into the end zone.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
How too more efficient? You know defenses are going to
have tight coverage on him. That is going to be
a main focal point. You have to find a way
to continue to produce. You look at other teams and
I know that he's only rookie, So I'm not saying
that this was the level that was expected it from
him off the bat. You look at other teams and
Justin Jefferson finds a way to get it done, Jamar
Chase finds a way to get it done. Ceedee Lamb.
So if you're going to go out there and you
(36:08):
know be a number one receiver, your team. Everyone involved
needs to find a way to make you more efficient,
and when you're looking at the numbers, theoretically it should
be easier to get somebody outside a little more open
than somebody like McBride who's running in the middle of
the field and he's having to get past linebackers and
safeties and a lot more bodies.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
The interesting note on Trey and I didn't know this,
but before he came on set, ESPN flashed this graphic.
Since twenty twenty two, Trey McBride has the lowest drop
rate of any pass catcher, ahead of Aman Ross, Saint Brown,
ahead of Justin Jefferson. According to ESPN Danny, since twenty
(36:49):
twenty two, Trey McBride has two drops on two hundred
and ninety six targets.
Speaker 3 (36:55):
One of them was that first game where McBride and
Murray were playing together. Murray came back, do you remember,
I think it was maybe honestly the first target for
Murray and McBride, and it kind of hit him, like,
I think, right in the face, right hand, stunned. Yes,
that was one. I can't even think of the other.
It's very impressive, I mean, now that's why he caught
all that money.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
You know, how do you define a drop versus where
you covered? Was it tight coverage? Was there a defender
in the area? Did he get a hand on the ball?
Speaker 2 (37:22):
Doubt?
Speaker 3 (37:22):
I doubt the one in LA.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
That's what I was thinking about too.
Speaker 3 (37:24):
I don't I don't know that that counts. That bounced
off his face.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Man, Yeah, and there was. I wouldn't consider that a drop. Again,
how do you define drop? But I just found that
interrot like two drops.
Speaker 3 (37:34):
On almost so few that I can tell you what
the first one was.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Yeah. By the way, dan Orlowsky a big fan of
Trey McBride his comments when Tray was on set because
it wasn't that long ago when Tray was a young
tight end on the rise. Tray now is one of
the best tight ends period. He's not on the rise.
You talk about top tight ends, you have to include
Trey McBride in that conversation with George K'll Travis Kelcey.
(38:02):
It's you know, top three, top five, And I would
love to know an argument where you if you don't
have Trey McBride in that conversation, even though he's only
done it. He's only been a starter for one full season.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
Well, there is no argument anymore. He got paid up
until Kittle decided to essentially get pennies more than and
he was the highest paid tight end NFL history. There
is no more argument. There is none.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
If you produce, you get paid. Trey McBride got paid
and well desered for him, and now it's just okay,
does he have any more help? Offensively meaning Marvin Harrison Jr.
And now I'm not discounting James Connor, but you're talking
about a pass catcher, not a running back in this situation.
How many hours Danny vacation days.
Speaker 3 (38:46):
I do before then?
Speaker 1 (38:48):
By the way, programming note, as everyone is starting to
disappear for a little while Cardinals Cover two is not
going anywhere, we'll begin starting next week our annual offseat
in tradition of looking around the NFC West, see what's
been happening with the Rams, Seahawks and forty nine ers.
It's been busy, not only here in Arizona, but also
Los Angeles, Seattle, and San Francisco as well. Danny, always
(39:12):
a pleasure. Enjoy the vacation, see you next month. Enjoy
your Fourth of July holiday, and training camp will be
right around the corner. Can't wait disconnect, Danny.
Speaker 3 (39:23):
Don't go tell me twice.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
I know. I'll work on that. On my end, on
that note Bird gang, we will put all it on.
This edition of Cardinals Cover two presented by Hundai, probably
partner of the Arizona Cardinals. As always, special thanks to
our executive producer Jim Mama Hundre, our associate producer Cody Fincher,
who remains on vacation for Danny. Sirek, I'm Craig Riolu.
We'll talk to you next time here on Cardinals Cover
two
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Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
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