April 23, 2024 • 37 mins
On this episode of the Giants Huddle podcast, John Schmeelk is joined by Brandon Thorn, author of the Trench Warfare Newsletter, to discuss the top offensive line prospects coming out in the 2024 NFL Draft and who could match up well with the Giants needs.
:00 - Offensive line class
12:49 - Giants needs
16:46 - Day two offensive linemen
30:24 - Day three offensive linemen
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's time to get inside the Giants huts Giants Dot
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Speaker 2 (00:07):
Part of the Giants Podcast Networks.
Speaker 3 (00:10):
Welcome to another edition of the Giants Little Podcast, brought
to you by Citizens the official bank of the New
York Football Giants.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
I am John Schmelk. Earlier in the week we had Brandon's.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Cohort over a Bleacher Report Derek Classing doing the skill
positions on offense. Now we have Brandon, author of the
Trench Warfare newsletters you can see from his background, also
one of the scouts over a Bleacher Report, who is
our offensive line guru. Brandon, Thanks again for joining us
like you do every year. I hope you are well.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Tell the folks where they can find all your stuff.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Yeah, thanks for having me so. Yeah, you can find
me Trench Warfare dot substack dot com. You can subscribe
there to all I do with my newsletter. Have my
guys coming out here soon in the in the offensive
line class and a bunch of other stuff kind of
in the works as well. So that's really the main spot,
and then all social media channels. Brandon Thorne NFL.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Well, yeah, make sure you guys go check it out
if you want offensive line information. This is the guy
that go to He studies at the NFL level, the
college level, you name it. He's our go to source
for offensive line breakdowns, and that's what we're gonna do
with him today, Britton. Let's start, though, with the overall
classification of the class. We know there's gonna be a
ton of first round guys, but based on the most
recent Bleacher Report rankings that are up there we're recording
(01:21):
this on Friday, thirteen of the first thirty nine players
on that bleacher Report big board are offensive lineman A third.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
That is a ridiculous amount.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
So clearly you agree with the general consensus here that
this is a pretty damn good top of the draft
first round offensive line group.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Yeah, definitely, it's a really good class. And you know,
I think I have maybe six or so like true
first round grades, and then you know several maybe another
five six like early second round grades, so you know,
just for additional context there, I don't have thirteen first
(02:00):
round grades, but but yeah, I mean, I definitely can
see the NFL valuing a lot of these guys, you know,
very highly, even higher than me. And in some of
these cases, so I think all all around, you know,
no matter who you kind of talk to, it's just
it's really good offensive line class, and I think that's
that's valid. And I think all the positions as well,
(02:21):
especially if you're projecting some of these tackles inside, and
then the guard class is really good as well. So
it's like there's there's there's immediate starters at kind of
all the positions, and then there's there's really good depth
that you know pretty much all the interior spots. There's
never really any depth that tackle and I, you know,
I don't know that there is in this class either.
(02:41):
Maybe you know one or two guys you can get,
like you know, in round three maybe, but after that, yeah,
it's you know, tackle drops off as usual.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
All right, So let's talk a little about a couple
of those guys that you think might be able to
bounce in. In you the rankings I'm looking at, you
have both Tea and Troy fa Tani listed as into
your offensive lineman, not tackles. Is that just you think
that's where they would play best, or do you think
because of their inability to stay outside they'll have to
(03:12):
be moved inside the guard more so?
Speaker 1 (03:16):
The formers just I think they'll be best there and
then a little bit of the ladder With Fuaga. I
posted a thing on Twitter a few weeks ago, ten
clips of him losing the same way outside outside hand,
not having quite enough range or you know, set points,
being a little short and just getting beat around the corner,
primarily with the cross chop. It happened probably a dozen
(03:38):
times last year, you know, maybe a little bit more.
I put ten of them up there, but but yeah,
that's kind of a typical thing that college tackles. You know,
if they struggle in that area and then you know
have the pre records at size, play strength, you know,
and run blocking skills, typically those guys are good candidates
(03:59):
to move into, which I think for Waga is a
great candidate to move inside. He could play tackle, I
think in the right system, RPO, play action heavy, you know,
limited true dropback situations, that sort of thing, you know,
San Francisco places like that. Yeah, he could, he could
play right tackle, but I think in the most schemes,
the most systems, he would probably be best long term
(04:21):
at guard.
Speaker 4 (04:23):
You know.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
I compared him to like a really like a supercharged
y tie, you know, coming out of TCU he's just
way more athletic than he was, but he's kind of
similarly built in wins in similar ways as a run
blocker or high end comp Mike you Potty, you know,
I see a guy like that and then a fatanu.
He's been my top guard since November December, So yeah,
(04:46):
he was just one of those. He's one of those
six I mentioned that are like true first round grades.
For me, I think he's, you know, in my top four.
I think he's one of the four best offensive linemen
in this class, no matter where you want to project him.
So I'm just a little bit higher on him, you know,
than Flogga.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
You know, Brandon, I gotta be honest with you.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
I thought I was going crazy because I've said the
same thing about Fuaga for a couple of months.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Now, we'll God turned me onto it.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Me and you actually hung out for a little bit
the Senior Bowl and I saw him three straight plays
at Lisa Isaac during the team portion. This is what
I want to was with a team portion, three straight
times he beat them with a quick speed rush outside
and it made me think, all right, well you get
him once, that's fine, but three straight times. So I
went back and I watched, and I thought maybe I
was being a little bit biased because I've seen Evan
(05:30):
Neil struggle getting with in depth on his kick and
I'm like, well, maybe I'm seeing something that's not there.
But I really do think that against really pure speed
guys at the NFL, he's gonna have trouble getting out
there and matching their speed if they really rush.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Why out of that nine technique.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Yeah, particularly with you know, not a lot of help either,
which credit to the NFL and a lot of these
systems they're providing a lot of help to tackles. So
you know, with that said, I think, you know, you
can a pretty strong case that he should stay outside.
I just think it's kind of a no brainer in
terms of getting the most out of him, getting the
(06:09):
best version of him long term would probably be a guard.
So that's where I kind of lean projecting him. But
you know, with the note that, yeah, he could possibly
play tackle too, but yeah, some of those situations, you know,
real high leverage situations where you're facing a really good
pass rusher and you don't you aren't provided a lot
(06:30):
of help for whatever reason, maybe the other side needs
it or whatever or it's just such an obvious pass
situation that it's tough those nuanced situations. Yeah, I think
he probably would struggle. And then some of the less
nuanced ones too. I mean it's on the senior Boll
tape like you mentioned, and then it's on his film
too in college. So it's it's really not like a
(06:52):
big secret. I don't know that it's been talked about quite,
you know enough, but yeah, it's it's there, I think.
But he might be the best run blocker in the class,
so you know, he's a really good player. Yeah, So
it's that's kind of how I feel about him.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
Yeah, I wasn't trying to kill the player. I think
he's a good player too. I just I think you're right.
I just don't think enough people have mentioned that, when
on the other hand, people have gone out of their
way to kill Olu for shan Who for a couple
of bad snaps against Ohio State, against the guy that's
going to be a first round pass rusher, one of
which he gets beat because he thinks a twist is
coming and it's not. And I was thrilled to see
(07:29):
you still look fashion who as your number two tackle
and not just your number two tackle. But greats touching
with Joe All, do you still view those two guys
as two players that would be first round or not
even first round, top ten offensive tackles in pretty much
any draft class.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Yeah, I made a slight alteration for a final big
board there, just to get a little bit more separation
there with Alton him. But I mean, I do think
for Seawan is definitely the second best tackle.
Speaker 4 (07:56):
In the class.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
And yeah, you know how State table you you know,
kind of summarize that well, a few bad reps. That
was the worst game of his career in two years.
So yeah, that one got a lot of spotlight on it.
But if you balance it, you know, with all the
other games, and I've watched pretty much every game with him,
you know, it's kind of easy for me to just
(08:22):
look at that for what it is. And you know,
you see some of those ways that he lost, particularly
with his anchor in other films, but it's it's not
as pronounced as that one. And you know, another thing
is he followed that up the rest of the year
with maybe the best football of his whole career to
kind of close out his time at Penn State, which
(08:43):
was nice. To see specifically as a run blocker. I
thought he really turned the page after that game in
a lot of ways in terms of sustaining and finishing blocks,
which was my biggest question with him, which is still
a little bit of a question, but he did at
least show a level of staying and finish that I
hadn't really seen prior to that, at least consistently, So
(09:04):
that was another part of it. But the thing about
Fashanu that you know, I think, you know, is really
hard to get out of my mind is you know,
when you first watch him last year as a nineteen
year old, you know just the how natural he is
in past protection in terms of movements, set points, hand usage,
(09:25):
timing it, sinking it, and it just it's just pretty
special stuff. And I think that that's kind of carried
through the rest of his career for the most part.
You know, again, not perfect, but you know, you know
every player, you know, you could kind of point to
some errors here and there. So I just think just
how natural it is for him. And then having the
(09:46):
traits that he does, chances are he's going to be
a good pass protector and a solid run blocker, and
that's that's kind of how I see him and if
you see that, you know as a tackle, Yeah, I
mean top ten, top fifteen kind of grade.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
For me as someone that evaluates these guys, and then
I'll kind of zero in on some of the more
giant needs. This is the question I've been trying to
figure out my own head fashion. Who looks so good
as a pass protector, so fluid feet or great yet
in the run game and again, I gotta go back
on my notes and check if it got better at
the end of the year. But I did feel like
he was on the ground a lot like he would
fall and I wasn't sure if he.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Was over extending too much.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
How do you reconcile such gracefulness and as a pass protector?
But then in the run game, I felt like he
was on the ground a little bit too much, falling forwards.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Yeah, definitely, And that's that was the biggest concern for me,
you know. So I think it's kind of a case
by case basis, but I think if you want to
kind of find a through line, you know, throughout his film,
a lot of it I think is footwork based and
aiming points and landmarks on in terms of fitting on
(10:52):
you know, the initial first phase of the block and
and not that part of it not always being clean,
and that just kind of puts them in a compromising
position from the jump that happens quite a bit. So
he doesn't really align targets very well. And I think
that starts from the ground, so, you know, he's just
kind of an unrefined run blocker in terms of footwork specifically,
(11:15):
and then, you know, I think that's really what hurts him,
you know. And if you can't get the first phase
of the run block right, the second and third phases,
you know, chances are they're not going to be there.
So I think he just needs work, you know, there,
and I think that that can develop, especially considering he's
relatively inexperienced, very young. Those are sorts of things that
(11:39):
could be developed. But I don't know that he's you know,
that powerful of a guy, you know, and his play
strength I would say, is you know good, you know,
at best. So I don't know that I see like
a very good or elite run blocker here, you know. Ever,
I just don't, But I do think he could be
(11:59):
function all to you know, above average. So I think
that's what you're hoping for and I think if he
gets some things cleaned up with his footwork, I think
he can get there. You know, I look at him
in some kind of a similar mold as you know.
My comparison, you know, from last year is a breaker
Show Ferguson and I just stuck with that. I think
that's the high end comp for him. You know, maybe
(12:20):
like a Ryan Clady, you know, that kind of guy
who are more I don't want to say finesse, but
kind of. You know, there are guys who traditionally fit
more in sort of a zone type of run scheme
that you know, would really excel in pass protection and
that's their calling card. Those two guys, you know, being
(12:41):
like kind of the best examples of that. But you
know that that's kind of how I see, you know,
probably the most likely outcome for him is one of
those two kind of guys, maybe somewhere in the middle.
And yeah, so we'll see, but I'm pretty I'm pretty
bullish on him.
Speaker 5 (13:00):
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Speaker 3 (13:15):
Johns Tottle podcast is brought to you by Citizens, the
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joined by Brandon Thorn from Trench Warfare. Brandon want to
touch on Joe Alt here. But if the Giants don't
go quarterback or receiver at six, I think the only
the guy that really makes sense for them would be
Joe Alt. Now here's the trick. They got Andrew Thomas
(13:36):
at left tackle. They moving them. How would you feel
if the Giants chose Alt at six but then had
to move him over to right tackle. Do you think
that should be something that should stop.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Them from making that selection. I know he was used
in an unbalanced line of Notre Dame.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
I saw it on tape a lot coma kinda as
that extra tight end on the right side next to
their right tackle. How do you view him if he
does have to get moved to the right side in
his first year in the pros?
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Yeah, I mean pretty much like most of these guys.
I mean, if you move him, this is a very
young class at the top and you know, I don't
see a problem with moving him. You know, there's there's
nothing on film or that I've heard that would suggest
a move, especially if you, you know, let him know
right away and he has the entire spring and summer
(14:23):
to do it. Yeah, I would probably have no concern
with that at all.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Good, simple answer.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
All Right, So I'm going to assume for a second
that those thirteen guys that you have in the top
thirty nine for Beliza Report probably are not going to
get to the giants at forty seven. Maybe Jordan Morgan,
and that's the guy we haven't talked about a Tom Brandon,
and I think he's an interesting guy who play tackle
at a pretty high level in college. But you do
see his length, his lack of arm length get him
(14:49):
in trouble a little bit.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
You have been projected as a guard.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Do you think he's strong enough to step in and
play garden right away or is that something he's going
to have to develop a little bit more before if
becomes a high level guard at the edif A level, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:02):
I mean, I don't I don't know that.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
I I guess it depends on what you say by
high level, Like all pro you know, I don't see that.
That's that's high level to me. I mean a functional guard,
you know, I would say, is in the cards there.
Speaker 4 (15:16):
You know for him.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
He he compares really favorably to me to Matthew Bergeron
and that was my comp for him coming out of Syracuse.
So very similar sorts of players. I would say, I
don't really have any questions about Jordan Morgan's play strength,
you know, at all.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
So I didn't see that.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
I thought the reason why he lost for the most
part in past protection was technique based and and maybe
athletic based, you know, just but probably more so technique footwork.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
He had a really bad habit that was prevalent throughout
his film of Dealing with again you know why nine
sort of pass rushers that threaten him with speed. Rather
than get to his spot stay square with good weight distribution,
he would oftentimes lean open up prematurely and then therefore
(16:07):
create a soft inside shoulder and be very vulnerable to
losing across his face against inside power moves. And the
USC tape from what I remember, Brayln Trice you know,
tore him apart, you know, and and it happened several
other games as well, I think against even lesser opponents.
Speaker 4 (16:27):
So you know, everyone points to the law to game
and it was fine.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
You know, he faced him six or seven times and
you know, had two three good reps against him, which
was you know, a good tape for him. But I
just think when you balance everything else that was on film,
to me, he was a pretty easy candidate to move inside. Now,
I think there is maybe an outside shot of maybe
like a Dion Dawkins sort of guy at left tackle,
(16:51):
but you know, I think more than likely you're getting
like a Matthew berger On kind of bro, you know,
who could be a you know, a solid guard and
I think you would fit really well. And like a wide,
tight zone sort of scheme, play action based, you know,
I think that would be ideal for him, which you
know there's a lot of teams have run that sort
of scheme.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
So yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Giants
big at forty seven and seventy year brand, and you
have a bunch of interior offensive linemen that could fit
there if the Giants want to try to show up
their guard spot, guys like Dominic Pooney, who's a conversion
in from tackle, go through some of those interior offensive
linemen that you like, you know, mid late second round,
early third round that could fit the Giants need as
(17:33):
someone that can either come in and start a guard
right away or maybe more importantly develop over a year
or two and eventually become a solid starting guard in
the NFL.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
I think Cooper Beebe is definitely a good candidate. I've
you know, he's one of the more easier kind of
evaluations for me, honestly, you know, because first of all,
he has a lot of film. He has you know,
fifty starts or forty eight starts, so I mean you
could you can, you know, see him execute every sort
of block you could possibly win against a variety of competition,
especially because Kansas State scheme is multiple in the run game,
(18:05):
so you know you're gonna see pinpoll duo, inside zone power,
you're gonna see everything. So with that, considering you know,
his experience, you really get to see him execute a
lot and he does it at a high level. I mean,
it's just consistent. I don't know that there's anything very good.
Speaker 4 (18:23):
To elite I know there.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
I don't think that there is about him, but does
a lot of things well, uh, and you know he
has the size in terms of build and the play
strength and the power that I think will translate and uh,
you know, again not not going to be like a
high end starter, but I think of all these guys
that we're going to talk about, he's the one who's
probably most ready to play inside. My favorite maybe of
(18:49):
these guys, especially if you can get him, you know
later in the second or even in the third, is
a guy like Dominic Pooney or even Christian Haynes and
then Christian Mahogany. Those three guys are really like three
of my guys in this class. I would say, you know, Pooney,
I just got done watching his film again because I'm
making all these cutups for my guy's article.
Speaker 4 (19:10):
And I mean.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Pooney at his size to have the movement skills that
he does and the balance, it's really impressive his ability
to stay attached to blocks through counters and shed attempts
and just to find his footing. And he's just a
really good athlete at his size, and he has a
lot of power. So I mean, I just you know,
And then he repped at center again, not again, but
(19:34):
he repped at center at the Senior Bowl, so you
got to see him there and at guard as well.
I just think he's going to be a really easy
guy to project inside either of those two spots. And
then Christian Haynes one of my favorite guys in the draft.
A lot of guys have been talking about him, and
I think for good reason. I mean, he's he's a technician.
I think, another guy with a ton of starts, although
(19:55):
all of them are at right guard. But yeah, he's
I think, pretty easy to project. I don't see a
super high ceiling with him. I see maybe best case
like a Kevin Dotson. He was my comparison for him,
kind of a right guard only player, but a guy
who has good length, good strength, and I just think
(20:16):
mentally he's so sharp, he's so consistent with technique, footwork, timing.
He just definitely knows what he's doing out there and
is very consistent with it. And I think he's probably
the best finisher in the draft as well. He's really
his demeanor is what you were looking for for I
think offensive line coaches will particularly love him. And then
(20:38):
Mahogany is kind of the wild card of the bunch,
I think, but I tend to favor these guys, especially
if you can get them a little later, big maybe
the most powerful guy in the class. You know, I
think he's certainly in the conversation, he's just a little
wild and kind of frenetic, I would say, and how
he plays, and he just needs to learn to kind
(20:58):
of reel it in and be more pa but really
good athlete, and he's just he's mean and he's powerful.
So I tend to favor those guys. And if he
gets into a spot with, you know, a decent offensive
line coach, I think he could turn into a starter
as well.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
You know, I think the other guy you have in
that neighborhood is Isaiah Adams out of Illinois Brandon.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
I really liked that the Senior Bowl.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
You know, they had to play him at a position
at tackle where he just didn't have the movement skills
to play there. But at his size at guard, I
think he can. I think he's not that dissimilar from
mahogany where. You know, if he shore some things up,
I think he could be a real solid starting guard
at the next level.
Speaker 4 (21:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Yeah, you really got to watch a lot of his film,
I think, because if you do watch the right tackle
game against Penn State, he kind of got put there
at you know, the last minute, I think to account
for injury, and it was it was a really bad game. Yeah,
it was very bad. But you know, the more you
watch him, he kind of settled into it. I think
right tackle, that is, he had ten starts there and
he kind of got better at it, got more serviceable functional.
(21:58):
But he really kind of got to go back and
forth years with him and make sure you watch him
at left guard, and then I think if you do that,
then you could kind of get a really good idea
of what he is. I compared him to Aaron Banks
coming out of Notre Dame. I think they just play
very similar. But yeah, I think he's an above average
rum blocker. He has solid quickness, body control, you know,
(22:21):
he's a good finisher. Uh He's he's upright, you know,
and he plays tall like Aaron Banks. Guys can slip,
you know, get inside underneath slip him a little quickly,
so you know that's going to be kind of an
issue for him. But I think pass protection, he's fluid,
he's quick. You know, we saw some of that at
the Senior Bowl. All those hands. I thought they got
him into trouble a little bit. But you know, he's
(22:44):
he's a real interesting player, and I think he has
the size, the strength, the quickness, and enough finishing skills to,
you know, at least be a backup right away and
a guy who can become a solid starter within his
rookie contract. I think is kind of how I would
characterize you, know, how I view him.
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Kind of these two, you know, second or third tier,
ever you want to split up. The first group, Brandon
that you have there is Patrick Paul and Roger Roseenngarden.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
I like Rosengarden a little bit more.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
I just think his moving skills are or are really strong,
and I think he's being underrated by some people.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
And then Patrick Paul is just really tall and long.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
I think he might just a little too tall, to
be honest with you, And in some ways, how do
you view those guys as potential day two targets an
offensive tackle then maybe have some upside to become starters
one day.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Yeah, so Patrick Paul, I mean I I like him
a good amount, even though I have, you know, a
grade on him that's more like third round. I just think,
you know, yeah, he is tall and long, but the
best parts about him I think are his strength and
how competitive, his competitive toughness. I mean, he's again, I'd
(24:16):
put him on the short list for best finisher in
the draft.
Speaker 4 (24:18):
He's Wow.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
He brings it kind of an edge to him. You
got to watch the sideline copy when you watch him,
because there's a lot of extracurricular stuff happening.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
I'll see that. Then I usually just watch the end
zone with these guys.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Yeah, I mean, you watch the end zone, but then
if it cuts off and you don't get to see
the finish, which you know it happens a lot, you
got to just watch his finishes because he's he's going
to bring an edge.
Speaker 4 (24:43):
You know.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
He reminds me a lot of Braxton Jones. In that
because Braxton Jones is the same way. He's very physical,
very aggressive, and very strong, you know, and I think
Patrick Paul is all those things, but his technique needs
a lot of work in past protections, specifically strike timing
and hand placement. It was an issue in college. Lets
(25:05):
guys get inside of him way too often, which you know,
allows you to see him get into compromising positions and
get out of them fairly well. But in the pros
he's just going to have to clean that up. He
can't get into that many positions. So hand placement is
really the big thing with him, and if it could
just get incrementally better, I think you have a starter,
(25:27):
but that has to get corrected first, and uh yeah,
we'll see there. So I just thought that that, you know,
really is holding him back more than anything, and then
Rosengarden to me, I honestly, I wish it kind of
would have went back. I just think he needs to
get stronger. He's just not very strong. He gets kind
of bullied, you know, with anchoring or trying to anchor
(25:48):
in the run game just doesn't really generate much movement.
He's you know, he's he's he's very scrappy I'm very
you know, crafty, I would say as well. I think
he has the right mental and I really like some
of the stuff he does. You know, he has a
three step short technique, which is kind of a nuanced
past protection technique that some pros primarily use. But he's
(26:11):
been coached by pro since high school, former pros that is,
so he's been exposed to, like some really high level coaching,
and I think you could see that. But I just
think he just needs to develop. He just has to
get stronger. So I don't know that he's going to
be able to deal with the bul rush, you know,
right now, you know, in the NFL, So that's my
biggest question. But over time, if that happens, I think
(26:35):
he could potentially start, But I see more of, you know,
a definite kind of swing at best, you know, until
that happens with him.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
You mentioned some of the technique stuff with Morgan and
with Patrick Paul. Two other tackles that I think physically
Brandon can rank near anybody at the top of this
class is Suematia from BYU and Guidon from Oklahoma Boy.
They moved so well. Suemte I think plays with the
real good nasty streak. He likes to just bury people
(27:04):
in the run game. But boy, in pass protection, they're
hands they're just not in the right place. Ever, especially Geiton,
is that something that you think when you scot these
offensive linemen, that is the best chance of being corrected,
you know, getting your hands high, getting them inside, you know,
things like that. Is that something that you think, with
the right coaching, you can fix at the next level.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
Yeah, I mean to an extent, I think you really
have to look at the player because oftentimes when the
hands are bad, the feed are two, you know in
terms of positioning, so you really kind of have to
dissect those. And I think with Geydon in particular, you know,
he's just one of the more inexperienced guys in this class.
You know him and Amarius Smims is obviously the one
(27:46):
that everyone talks about, But Geydon is He's a one
year starter. He played defensive line. You know, he hasn't
even been playing offensive line for more than a couple
of years. So this guy's like brand new to the position.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
He's very raw. You could see it. You know.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
He's another guy that you know, I guess if he
gets trapped in the first round, there's a moot point,
but you know, probably could have you know, done well
for himself to come back another year.
Speaker 4 (28:09):
So he's one of those.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Guys that initially it may be very up and down
and kind of dicey, you know, as a rookie, but man,
you know it'd be six eight three twenty and a
move like that is you know. I mean, you saw
it at the Senior Bowl, you see it on tape.
You talk to anybody at Oklahoma, which I've gotten to talk,
you know, to some people there quite a bit about
him for the last couple of years, and they're a
(28:31):
year and a half or so, and like, you know,
it's just so clear that this guy is different, uh
physically in terms of with being six ' eight and
how easy of a mover he is. I said in
my report, he just glides on the field. So you know,
those things are great and nice, but the real the
thing that really makes me like him is he's strong
(28:52):
as well. His anchor is actually really naturally strong. I
think you saw that at the Senior Bowl. Although there
was some up and down stuff there, especially against Nanarius Robinson,
but you see it on tape as well. So the
fact that He's naturally strong, that good of a mover,
that big, that inexperienced, which is kind of a plus
and a minus. Yeah, I would definitely roll the dice
(29:15):
with him in the second round.
Speaker 4 (29:17):
You know, he's.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
Probably gonna go in the first, but I always like
to think of it like, you know, I give him
a second round grade. But you know, if I was
scouting for Philly, you know, he'd be a first round
grade all day. If you know, if I was scouting
for even like a Cincinnati where he can maybe sit,
you know, yeah, I'd feel a lot more comfortable given
the first round grade to a guy like that. So
(29:38):
that's kind of how I see him. And then sum
Mattia is just kind of a little bit of a
step down from that, I think, you know, not not
quite as imposing of a guy as as Tyler Geyton,
I would say, but high pedigree player who the flashes.
Speaker 4 (29:53):
With him are nice.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
I actually saw some good flashes and pass protection using
his hands, but it's just very up and down. So
he's a guy that you know, I would be more
comfortable drafting like firm second round.
Speaker 4 (30:08):
I don't know that I would go first, you.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Know with him, and I you know, honestly with him,
considering he was I think the number three freak on
Bruce Feldman's freak list. I was expecting a better athlete,
you know, when I watched him on film. I think
he's a good athlete, but I was expecting like Tyler Geydon,
you know. So that's kind of why I have him
at that sixth spot, ot six for me. But you know,
(30:32):
definitely a quality prospect. I mean I still like him.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
Find one brand and appreciate you giving us thirty minutes
here has been fantastic. I'll give me one Day three
guy that you really like. That's one of your guys.
And then Giant fans want Evan Deal to kind of
rebound and you know, take the next step and become
a good starting offensive tackle.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
What are the challenges there?
Speaker 3 (30:49):
What does he really need to clean up in your
eyes to turn that corner and become a good starting
of right tackle in the NFL.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
So, yeah, Day three guys, there's a lot of them class,
especially on the interior. I mean, gosh, you know I
would throw out maybe like a Hunter noors Ad, you know,
from Penn State. He's only been playing center one year.
He's a transfer Cornell. You know, he's just I think
made up the right way in terms of processing skills,
(31:17):
competitive toughness. But then he's a really good movie in test.
But you watch the film's he's a really good mover
and he just sticks on blocks pretty well. I just
think he could get better. He could kind of develop
into a starter at center. So he's a guy would
throw out there, but I love the center class. So
there's a lot of centers that I can you know,
(31:37):
just ask me a different one, different day of the week,
and I would, you know, talk about another one. But
he's one of the ones that continually kind of sticks
out for me. And then with Evan Neil, you know,
I thought about this a lot, and I think, well,
first of all, you know, first and foremost, getting healthy
last year was you know, he just wasn't healthy. You know,
most of those seven starts I think he had.
Speaker 3 (31:57):
Though he wasn't the first half of his is the
second half of his year he was playing on a
bad need too.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
To be honest with, he's been healthy for the Giants
like six games. It's been crazy.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
I know, it's it's really unfortunate because he's a guy
who needs every ounce of movement skill that he has,
you know, being three sixty and if you hinder that
and play injured, it's just tough to get a real
good read on who he can be as a pro
now in terms of when he is on the field
and you know, technique wise, I think his biggest thing
(32:26):
is learning to be patient and letting rushers come to
him rather than chasing guys and falling for the stutters
and the tempo and the hesitations and things like that.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
And that's where balance issues come in, right when he
does that sort of stuff.
Speaker 4 (32:39):
Yeah, I mean he needs to learn.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
Ideally he would be he would kind of get the
Dwan Jones treatment, although I think they're different players. The
way that Dwan Jones was used last year and Bill
Callahan's scheme was he was a heavy vertical set guy.
He could mix it up and go get guys, but
for the most part he's setting vertical and what that
does is fort forces rushers to come to you and
(33:02):
it you obviously need to be a guy who can
anchor in that situation because you're going to be closer
to the quarterback. But I think Evan Neil can anchor.
So you know, the thing is if you if you're
vertical setting Evan Neil more often than not, he's not
going to have to get out there on angle forty
five degree sets as often as he you know, sometimes does.
(33:23):
And any three hundred and fifty pound plus guy who
gets out there too much, I mean it's going to
get it's not going to look good, especially if you know,
you're really young. So hopefully he can kind of be
used that way, or at least if he is setting
that way, just to be more patient, you know, with
his hands and play big and let guy forced guy
(33:45):
just stay inside out, force guys to run through you.
And I think that's probably his best bet. In fact,
I kind of know that's his best bet. And we'll
see if he could do it, you know, if he
can have that discipline with his hands to do that.
But uh yeah, I mean he has to get right
physically first. And I don't know how people were writing
them off so quick, honestly, I mean, yeah, I liked
(34:06):
them coming out. Maybe that's part of it. But you know,
he's super young, and you know he's been hurt a lot,
like you know, you know, you got to give this
guy a little bit more time.
Speaker 3 (34:15):
I think, no, I'm with you, And just so fans understand,
when you say vertical set, you mean kind of straight back, right, yeah,
towards the backfield rather than out towards the sideline.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Correct, Yes, And just if people can imagine that in
their mind, vertical setting a tackle straight back, you're going
to be closer to the quarterback. So there's plus and
minus to this. The minus is you're closer to the quarterbacks,
so you're more you're more susceptible to power. But that's
why you typically see the three hundred and forty three
hundred and fifty pounds plus guys vertical setting, because those
(34:47):
are the guys that can handle power. So you're kind
of xing out that minus. And the positive is you're
not playing in that much space, and you just you
cut what the rusher can do in half, you know,
straight up off the top. You know they're not going
to be able to beat you necessarily around the corner
because you're already so deep in the pocket, So you
kind of mitigate the speed aspect of it, and you
(35:10):
kind of play more of a power oriented game. And
typically you see the bigger guys do that, and or
at least the guys that can anchor like Joe Thomas
is kind of an anomaly.
Speaker 4 (35:19):
He did it a lot.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
He's not the biggest guy, but he had a great anchor,
you know, and some other guys have had success with
it as well, you know, Trent.
Speaker 4 (35:26):
Brown being one, and some other guys.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
But yeah, I just think that that approach would probably
give Evan Neil the best chance of being a good
pass protector. And you know, we see the flashes in
the run game, and he's a powerful guy and he's strong,
So I don't think those are the questions. It's just
his discipline and his technique, you know, is the biggest thing.
Speaker 4 (35:49):
I think.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
I apologize for one a couple of minutes long.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
Brandon Carl Brisillo is from the Dante Scarnekia school. Did
he use that type of stuff in New England when
Scarnekia was there? More vertical setting with the bigger guys,
And you mentioned Trent Brown, which is.
Speaker 4 (36:01):
Why I asked, who's that?
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Uh?
Speaker 3 (36:04):
When Scarnekia was in New England? How much did they
use vertical sets with their tackles? Because that's you Briscilla
learned a lot from when he was in a system.
There's Scarnekia.
Speaker 4 (36:13):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
Yeah, I don't know that Scarnekia necessarily majored in that.
You know, I did see Trent Brown doing that there.
But as far as other tackles that played for Scarnakia, uh,
typically they're they were kind of more smaller guys. And
oh yeah Nate Soldier, but he was a finesse kind
of guy like that that wouldn't really fit him. So
uh but you know, Scarnekia is one of those guys
who probably could teach anybody anything, and you know he
(36:37):
was gonna adjust to whoever he has, so yeah, I mean,
which you saw he had so many different kinds of
body type, Shack Mason, Trent Brown, I mean, you know,
six foot six ' eight, like, you know, power, you know,
finesse guys all over the place, you know as well.
So it's like, yeah, Scarnekia is kind of a you know,
his own thing and in some sense, but yeah, like
(36:57):
Bill Callahan, I would say, is a good example of that.
He has used that pretty extensively. And I think that's
a big reason why Dwan Jones was able to have
as much success as he had last year, was because
he was handled in such a great way and so
vertical setting heavy and then when he faced guys like TJ.
Watt or Nick Bosa or some of the matchups he had,
(37:18):
he was provided a lot of help and then he
was kind of unleashed here and there, but it was
in spurts. It was very selective and he just he
was in the perfect spot, you know. So sometimes it
happens like that and guys can get maximized. So hopefully
Neil can kind of get into a similar sort of situation.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
Brandon, awesome stuff again, Thanks for joining us Teldic folks.
One more timing and where they can subscribe to the
Trench Warfare newsletter and everything else you're up to.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
Yeah, so trench Warfare dot substock dot com is where
you could find me, subscribe to my newsletter, get all
my work there, and then social media. Brandon Thorn NFL.
Speaker 3 (37:53):
Thanks for joining us in the Giants Little podcast brought
you by Citizens, the official Bank of the Giants.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
So see you next time. Everybody,
It's time to get inside the Giants huts Giants Dot
Come my Giants, give me some job.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Part of the Giants Podcast Networks.
Speaker 3 (00:10):
Welcome to another edition of the Giants Little Podcast, brought
to you by Citizens the official bank of the New
York Football Giants.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
I am John Schmelk. Earlier in the week we had Brandon's.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Cohort over a Bleacher Report Derek Classing doing the skill
positions on offense. Now we have Brandon, author of the
Trench Warfare newsletters you can see from his background, also
one of the scouts over a Bleacher Report, who is
our offensive line guru. Brandon, Thanks again for joining us
like you do every year. I hope you are well.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Tell the folks where they can find all your stuff.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Yeah, thanks for having me so. Yeah, you can find
me Trench Warfare dot substack dot com. You can subscribe
there to all I do with my newsletter. Have my
guys coming out here soon in the in the offensive
line class and a bunch of other stuff kind of
in the works as well. So that's really the main spot,
and then all social media channels. Brandon Thorne NFL.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Well, yeah, make sure you guys go check it out
if you want offensive line information. This is the guy
that go to He studies at the NFL level, the
college level, you name it. He's our go to source
for offensive line breakdowns, and that's what we're gonna do
with him today, Britton. Let's start, though, with the overall
classification of the class. We know there's gonna be a
ton of first round guys, but based on the most
recent Bleacher Report rankings that are up there we're recording
(01:21):
this on Friday, thirteen of the first thirty nine players
on that bleacher Report big board are offensive lineman A third.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
That is a ridiculous amount.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
So clearly you agree with the general consensus here that
this is a pretty damn good top of the draft
first round offensive line group.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Yeah, definitely, it's a really good class. And you know,
I think I have maybe six or so like true
first round grades, and then you know several maybe another
five six like early second round grades, so you know,
just for additional context there, I don't have thirteen first
(02:00):
round grades, but but yeah, I mean, I definitely can
see the NFL valuing a lot of these guys, you know,
very highly, even higher than me. And in some of
these cases, so I think all all around, you know,
no matter who you kind of talk to, it's just
it's really good offensive line class, and I think that's
that's valid. And I think all the positions as well,
(02:21):
especially if you're projecting some of these tackles inside, and
then the guard class is really good as well. So
it's like there's there's there's immediate starters at kind of
all the positions, and then there's there's really good depth
that you know pretty much all the interior spots. There's
never really any depth that tackle and I, you know,
I don't know that there is in this class either.
(02:41):
Maybe you know one or two guys you can get,
like you know, in round three maybe, but after that, yeah,
it's you know, tackle drops off as usual.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
All right, So let's talk a little about a couple
of those guys that you think might be able to
bounce in. In you the rankings I'm looking at, you
have both Tea and Troy fa Tani listed as into
your offensive lineman, not tackles. Is that just you think
that's where they would play best, or do you think
because of their inability to stay outside they'll have to
(03:12):
be moved inside the guard more so?
Speaker 1 (03:16):
The formers just I think they'll be best there and
then a little bit of the ladder With Fuaga. I
posted a thing on Twitter a few weeks ago, ten
clips of him losing the same way outside outside hand,
not having quite enough range or you know, set points,
being a little short and just getting beat around the corner,
primarily with the cross chop. It happened probably a dozen
(03:38):
times last year, you know, maybe a little bit more.
I put ten of them up there, but but yeah,
that's kind of a typical thing that college tackles. You know,
if they struggle in that area and then you know
have the pre records at size, play strength, you know,
and run blocking skills, typically those guys are good candidates
(03:59):
to move into, which I think for Waga is a
great candidate to move inside. He could play tackle, I
think in the right system, RPO, play action heavy, you know,
limited true dropback situations, that sort of thing, you know,
San Francisco places like that. Yeah, he could, he could
play right tackle, but I think in the most schemes,
the most systems, he would probably be best long term
(04:21):
at guard.
Speaker 4 (04:23):
You know.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
I compared him to like a really like a supercharged
y tie, you know, coming out of TCU he's just
way more athletic than he was, but he's kind of
similarly built in wins in similar ways as a run
blocker or high end comp Mike you Potty, you know,
I see a guy like that and then a fatanu.
He's been my top guard since November December, So yeah,
(04:46):
he was just one of those. He's one of those
six I mentioned that are like true first round grades.
For me, I think he's, you know, in my top four.
I think he's one of the four best offensive linemen
in this class, no matter where you want to project him.
So I'm just a little bit higher on him, you know,
than Flogga.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
You know, Brandon, I gotta be honest with you.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
I thought I was going crazy because I've said the
same thing about Fuaga for a couple of months.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Now, we'll God turned me onto it.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Me and you actually hung out for a little bit
the Senior Bowl and I saw him three straight plays
at Lisa Isaac during the team portion. This is what
I want to was with a team portion, three straight
times he beat them with a quick speed rush outside
and it made me think, all right, well you get
him once, that's fine, but three straight times. So I
went back and I watched, and I thought maybe I
was being a little bit biased because I've seen Evan
(05:30):
Neil struggle getting with in depth on his kick and
I'm like, well, maybe I'm seeing something that's not there.
But I really do think that against really pure speed
guys at the NFL, he's gonna have trouble getting out
there and matching their speed if they really rush.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Why out of that nine technique.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Yeah, particularly with you know, not a lot of help either,
which credit to the NFL and a lot of these
systems they're providing a lot of help to tackles. So
you know, with that said, I think, you know, you
can a pretty strong case that he should stay outside.
I just think it's kind of a no brainer in
terms of getting the most out of him, getting the
(06:09):
best version of him long term would probably be a guard.
So that's where I kind of lean projecting him. But
you know, with the note that, yeah, he could possibly
play tackle too, but yeah, some of those situations, you know,
real high leverage situations where you're facing a really good
pass rusher and you don't you aren't provided a lot
(06:30):
of help for whatever reason, maybe the other side needs
it or whatever or it's just such an obvious pass
situation that it's tough those nuanced situations. Yeah, I think
he probably would struggle. And then some of the less
nuanced ones too. I mean it's on the senior Boll
tape like you mentioned, and then it's on his film
too in college. So it's it's really not like a
(06:52):
big secret. I don't know that it's been talked about quite,
you know enough, but yeah, it's it's there, I think.
But he might be the best run blocker in the class,
so you know, he's a really good player. Yeah, So
it's that's kind of how I feel about him.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
Yeah, I wasn't trying to kill the player. I think
he's a good player too. I just I think you're right.
I just don't think enough people have mentioned that, when
on the other hand, people have gone out of their
way to kill Olu for shan Who for a couple
of bad snaps against Ohio State, against the guy that's
going to be a first round pass rusher, one of
which he gets beat because he thinks a twist is
coming and it's not. And I was thrilled to see
(07:29):
you still look fashion who as your number two tackle
and not just your number two tackle. But greats touching
with Joe All, do you still view those two guys
as two players that would be first round or not
even first round, top ten offensive tackles in pretty much
any draft class.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Yeah, I made a slight alteration for a final big
board there, just to get a little bit more separation
there with Alton him. But I mean, I do think
for Seawan is definitely the second best tackle.
Speaker 4 (07:56):
In the class.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
And yeah, you know how State table you you know,
kind of summarize that well, a few bad reps. That
was the worst game of his career in two years.
So yeah, that one got a lot of spotlight on it.
But if you balance it, you know, with all the
other games, and I've watched pretty much every game with him,
you know, it's kind of easy for me to just
(08:22):
look at that for what it is. And you know,
you see some of those ways that he lost, particularly
with his anchor in other films, but it's it's not
as pronounced as that one. And you know, another thing
is he followed that up the rest of the year
with maybe the best football of his whole career to
kind of close out his time at Penn State, which
(08:43):
was nice. To see specifically as a run blocker. I
thought he really turned the page after that game in
a lot of ways in terms of sustaining and finishing blocks,
which was my biggest question with him, which is still
a little bit of a question, but he did at
least show a level of staying and finish that I
hadn't really seen prior to that, at least consistently, So
(09:04):
that was another part of it. But the thing about
Fashanu that you know, I think, you know, is really
hard to get out of my mind is you know,
when you first watch him last year as a nineteen
year old, you know just the how natural he is
in past protection in terms of movements, set points, hand usage,
(09:25):
timing it, sinking it, and it just it's just pretty
special stuff. And I think that that's kind of carried
through the rest of his career for the most part.
You know, again, not perfect, but you know, you know
every player, you know, you could kind of point to
some errors here and there. So I just think just
how natural it is for him. And then having the
(09:46):
traits that he does, chances are he's going to be
a good pass protector and a solid run blocker, and
that's that's kind of how I see him and if
you see that, you know as a tackle, Yeah, I
mean top ten, top fifteen kind of grade.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
For me as someone that evaluates these guys, and then
I'll kind of zero in on some of the more
giant needs. This is the question I've been trying to
figure out my own head fashion. Who looks so good
as a pass protector, so fluid feet or great yet
in the run game and again, I gotta go back
on my notes and check if it got better at
the end of the year. But I did feel like
he was on the ground a lot like he would
fall and I wasn't sure if he.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Was over extending too much.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
How do you reconcile such gracefulness and as a pass protector?
But then in the run game, I felt like he
was on the ground a little bit too much, falling forwards.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Yeah, definitely, And that's that was the biggest concern for me,
you know. So I think it's kind of a case
by case basis, but I think if you want to
kind of find a through line, you know, throughout his film,
a lot of it I think is footwork based and
aiming points and landmarks on in terms of fitting on
(10:52):
you know, the initial first phase of the block and
and not that part of it not always being clean,
and that just kind of puts them in a compromising
position from the jump that happens quite a bit. So
he doesn't really align targets very well. And I think
that starts from the ground, so, you know, he's just
kind of an unrefined run blocker in terms of footwork specifically,
(11:15):
and then, you know, I think that's really what hurts him,
you know. And if you can't get the first phase
of the run block right, the second and third phases,
you know, chances are they're not going to be there.
So I think he just needs work, you know, there,
and I think that that can develop, especially considering he's
relatively inexperienced, very young. Those are sorts of things that
(11:39):
could be developed. But I don't know that he's you know,
that powerful of a guy, you know, and his play
strength I would say, is you know good, you know,
at best. So I don't know that I see like
a very good or elite run blocker here, you know. Ever,
I just don't, But I do think he could be
(11:59):
function all to you know, above average. So I think
that's what you're hoping for and I think if he
gets some things cleaned up with his footwork, I think
he can get there. You know, I look at him
in some kind of a similar mold as you know.
My comparison, you know, from last year is a breaker
Show Ferguson and I just stuck with that. I think
that's the high end comp for him. You know, maybe
(12:20):
like a Ryan Clady, you know, that kind of guy
who are more I don't want to say finesse, but
kind of. You know, there are guys who traditionally fit
more in sort of a zone type of run scheme
that you know, would really excel in pass protection and
that's their calling card. Those two guys, you know, being
(12:41):
like kind of the best examples of that. But you
know that that's kind of how I see, you know,
probably the most likely outcome for him is one of
those two kind of guys, maybe somewhere in the middle.
And yeah, so we'll see, but I'm pretty I'm pretty
bullish on him.
Speaker 5 (13:00):
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Johns Tottle podcast is brought to you by Citizens, the
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and solutions. Learn more at citizens bank dot com. We're
joined by Brandon Thorn from Trench Warfare. Brandon want to
touch on Joe Alt here. But if the Giants don't
go quarterback or receiver at six, I think the only
the guy that really makes sense for them would be
Joe Alt. Now here's the trick. They got Andrew Thomas
(13:36):
at left tackle. They moving them. How would you feel
if the Giants chose Alt at six but then had
to move him over to right tackle. Do you think
that should be something that should stop.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Them from making that selection. I know he was used
in an unbalanced line of Notre Dame.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
I saw it on tape a lot coma kinda as
that extra tight end on the right side next to
their right tackle. How do you view him if he
does have to get moved to the right side in
his first year in the pros?
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Yeah, I mean pretty much like most of these guys.
I mean, if you move him, this is a very
young class at the top and you know, I don't
see a problem with moving him. You know, there's there's
nothing on film or that I've heard that would suggest
a move, especially if you, you know, let him know
right away and he has the entire spring and summer
(14:23):
to do it. Yeah, I would probably have no concern
with that at all.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Good, simple answer.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
All Right, So I'm going to assume for a second
that those thirteen guys that you have in the top
thirty nine for Beliza Report probably are not going to
get to the giants at forty seven. Maybe Jordan Morgan,
and that's the guy we haven't talked about a Tom Brandon,
and I think he's an interesting guy who play tackle
at a pretty high level in college. But you do
see his length, his lack of arm length get him
(14:49):
in trouble a little bit.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
You have been projected as a guard.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Do you think he's strong enough to step in and
play garden right away or is that something he's going
to have to develop a little bit more before if
becomes a high level guard at the edif A level, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:02):
I mean, I don't I don't know that.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
I I guess it depends on what you say by
high level, Like all pro you know, I don't see that.
That's that's high level to me. I mean a functional guard,
you know, I would say, is in the cards there.
Speaker 4 (15:16):
You know for him.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
He he compares really favorably to me to Matthew Bergeron
and that was my comp for him coming out of Syracuse.
So very similar sorts of players. I would say, I
don't really have any questions about Jordan Morgan's play strength,
you know, at all.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
So I didn't see that.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
I thought the reason why he lost for the most
part in past protection was technique based and and maybe
athletic based, you know, just but probably more so technique footwork.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
He had a really bad habit that was prevalent throughout
his film of Dealing with again you know why nine
sort of pass rushers that threaten him with speed. Rather
than get to his spot stay square with good weight distribution,
he would oftentimes lean open up prematurely and then therefore
(16:07):
create a soft inside shoulder and be very vulnerable to
losing across his face against inside power moves. And the
USC tape from what I remember, Brayln Trice you know,
tore him apart, you know, and and it happened several
other games as well, I think against even lesser opponents.
Speaker 4 (16:27):
So you know, everyone points to the law to game
and it was fine.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
You know, he faced him six or seven times and
you know, had two three good reps against him, which
was you know, a good tape for him. But I
just think when you balance everything else that was on film,
to me, he was a pretty easy candidate to move inside. Now,
I think there is maybe an outside shot of maybe
like a Dion Dawkins sort of guy at left tackle,
(16:51):
but you know, I think more than likely you're getting
like a Matthew berger On kind of bro, you know,
who could be a you know, a solid guard and
I think you would fit really well. And like a wide,
tight zone sort of scheme, play action based, you know,
I think that would be ideal for him, which you
know there's a lot of teams have run that sort
of scheme.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
So yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Giants
big at forty seven and seventy year brand, and you
have a bunch of interior offensive linemen that could fit
there if the Giants want to try to show up
their guard spot, guys like Dominic Pooney, who's a conversion
in from tackle, go through some of those interior offensive
linemen that you like, you know, mid late second round,
early third round that could fit the Giants need as
(17:33):
someone that can either come in and start a guard
right away or maybe more importantly develop over a year
or two and eventually become a solid starting guard in
the NFL.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
I think Cooper Beebe is definitely a good candidate. I've
you know, he's one of the more easier kind of
evaluations for me, honestly, you know, because first of all,
he has a lot of film. He has you know,
fifty starts or forty eight starts, so I mean you
could you can, you know, see him execute every sort
of block you could possibly win against a variety of competition,
especially because Kansas State scheme is multiple in the run game,
(18:05):
so you know you're gonna see pinpoll duo, inside zone power,
you're gonna see everything. So with that, considering you know,
his experience, you really get to see him execute a
lot and he does it at a high level. I mean,
it's just consistent. I don't know that there's anything very good.
Speaker 4 (18:23):
To elite I know there.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
I don't think that there is about him, but does
a lot of things well, uh, and you know he
has the size in terms of build and the play
strength and the power that I think will translate and uh,
you know, again not not going to be like a
high end starter, but I think of all these guys
that we're going to talk about, he's the one who's
probably most ready to play inside. My favorite maybe of
(18:49):
these guys, especially if you can get him, you know
later in the second or even in the third, is
a guy like Dominic Pooney or even Christian Haynes and
then Christian Mahogany. Those three guys are really like three
of my guys in this class. I would say, you know, Pooney,
I just got done watching his film again because I'm
making all these cutups for my guy's article.
Speaker 4 (19:10):
And I mean.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Pooney at his size to have the movement skills that
he does and the balance, it's really impressive his ability
to stay attached to blocks through counters and shed attempts
and just to find his footing. And he's just a
really good athlete at his size, and he has a
lot of power. So I mean, I just you know,
And then he repped at center again, not again, but
(19:34):
he repped at center at the Senior Bowl, so you
got to see him there and at guard as well.
I just think he's going to be a really easy
guy to project inside either of those two spots. And
then Christian Haynes one of my favorite guys in the draft.
A lot of guys have been talking about him, and
I think for good reason. I mean, he's he's a technician.
I think, another guy with a ton of starts, although
(19:55):
all of them are at right guard. But yeah, he's
I think, pretty easy to project. I don't see a
super high ceiling with him. I see maybe best case
like a Kevin Dotson. He was my comparison for him,
kind of a right guard only player, but a guy
who has good length, good strength, and I just think
(20:16):
mentally he's so sharp, he's so consistent with technique, footwork, timing.
He just definitely knows what he's doing out there and
is very consistent with it. And I think he's probably
the best finisher in the draft as well. He's really
his demeanor is what you were looking for for I
think offensive line coaches will particularly love him. And then
(20:38):
Mahogany is kind of the wild card of the bunch,
I think, but I tend to favor these guys, especially
if you can get them a little later, big maybe
the most powerful guy in the class. You know, I
think he's certainly in the conversation, he's just a little
wild and kind of frenetic, I would say, and how
he plays, and he just needs to learn to kind
(20:58):
of reel it in and be more pa but really
good athlete, and he's just he's mean and he's powerful.
So I tend to favor those guys. And if he
gets into a spot with, you know, a decent offensive
line coach, I think he could turn into a starter
as well.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
You know, I think the other guy you have in
that neighborhood is Isaiah Adams out of Illinois Brandon.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
I really liked that the Senior Bowl.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
You know, they had to play him at a position
at tackle where he just didn't have the movement skills
to play there. But at his size at guard, I
think he can. I think he's not that dissimilar from
mahogany where. You know, if he shore some things up,
I think he could be a real solid starting guard
at the next level.
Speaker 4 (21:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Yeah, you really got to watch a lot of his film,
I think, because if you do watch the right tackle
game against Penn State, he kind of got put there
at you know, the last minute, I think to account
for injury, and it was it was a really bad game. Yeah,
it was very bad. But you know, the more you
watch him, he kind of settled into it. I think
right tackle, that is, he had ten starts there and
he kind of got better at it, got more serviceable functional.
(21:58):
But he really kind of got to go back and
forth years with him and make sure you watch him
at left guard, and then I think if you do that,
then you could kind of get a really good idea
of what he is. I compared him to Aaron Banks
coming out of Notre Dame. I think they just play
very similar. But yeah, I think he's an above average
rum blocker. He has solid quickness, body control, you know,
(22:21):
he's a good finisher. Uh He's he's upright, you know,
and he plays tall like Aaron Banks. Guys can slip,
you know, get inside underneath slip him a little quickly,
so you know that's going to be kind of an
issue for him. But I think pass protection, he's fluid,
he's quick. You know, we saw some of that at
the Senior Bowl. All those hands. I thought they got
him into trouble a little bit. But you know, he's
(22:44):
he's a real interesting player, and I think he has
the size, the strength, the quickness, and enough finishing skills to,
you know, at least be a backup right away and
a guy who can become a solid starter within his
rookie contract. I think is kind of how I would
characterize you, know, how I view him.
Speaker 5 (23:01):
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Speaker 2 (23:16):
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Kind of these two, you know, second or third tier,
ever you want to split up. The first group, Brandon
that you have there is Patrick Paul and Roger Roseenngarden.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
I like Rosengarden a little bit more.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
I just think his moving skills are or are really strong,
and I think he's being underrated by some people.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
And then Patrick Paul is just really tall and long.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
I think he might just a little too tall, to
be honest with you, And in some ways, how do
you view those guys as potential day two targets an
offensive tackle then maybe have some upside to become starters
one day.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Yeah, so Patrick Paul, I mean I I like him
a good amount, even though I have, you know, a
grade on him that's more like third round. I just think,
you know, yeah, he is tall and long, but the
best parts about him I think are his strength and
how competitive, his competitive toughness. I mean, he's again, I'd
(24:16):
put him on the short list for best finisher in
the draft.
Speaker 4 (24:18):
He's Wow.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
He brings it kind of an edge to him. You
got to watch the sideline copy when you watch him,
because there's a lot of extracurricular stuff happening.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
I'll see that. Then I usually just watch the end
zone with these guys.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Yeah, I mean, you watch the end zone, but then
if it cuts off and you don't get to see
the finish, which you know it happens a lot, you
got to just watch his finishes because he's he's going
to bring an edge.
Speaker 4 (24:43):
You know.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
He reminds me a lot of Braxton Jones. In that
because Braxton Jones is the same way. He's very physical,
very aggressive, and very strong, you know, and I think
Patrick Paul is all those things, but his technique needs
a lot of work in past protections, specifically strike timing
and hand placement. It was an issue in college. Lets
(25:05):
guys get inside of him way too often, which you know,
allows you to see him get into compromising positions and
get out of them fairly well. But in the pros
he's just going to have to clean that up. He
can't get into that many positions. So hand placement is
really the big thing with him, and if it could
just get incrementally better, I think you have a starter,
(25:27):
but that has to get corrected first, and uh yeah,
we'll see there. So I just thought that that, you know,
really is holding him back more than anything, and then
Rosengarden to me, I honestly, I wish it kind of
would have went back. I just think he needs to
get stronger. He's just not very strong. He gets kind
of bullied, you know, with anchoring or trying to anchor
(25:48):
in the run game just doesn't really generate much movement.
He's you know, he's he's he's very scrappy I'm very
you know, crafty, I would say as well. I think
he has the right mental and I really like some
of the stuff he does. You know, he has a
three step short technique, which is kind of a nuanced
past protection technique that some pros primarily use. But he's
(26:11):
been coached by pro since high school, former pros that is,
so he's been exposed to, like some really high level coaching,
and I think you could see that. But I just
think he just needs to develop. He just has to
get stronger. So I don't know that he's going to
be able to deal with the bul rush, you know,
right now, you know, in the NFL, So that's my
biggest question. But over time, if that happens, I think
(26:35):
he could potentially start, But I see more of, you know,
a definite kind of swing at best, you know, until
that happens with him.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
You mentioned some of the technique stuff with Morgan and
with Patrick Paul. Two other tackles that I think physically
Brandon can rank near anybody at the top of this
class is Suematia from BYU and Guidon from Oklahoma Boy.
They moved so well. Suemte I think plays with the
real good nasty streak. He likes to just bury people
(27:04):
in the run game. But boy, in pass protection, they're
hands they're just not in the right place. Ever, especially Geiton,
is that something that you think when you scot these
offensive linemen, that is the best chance of being corrected,
you know, getting your hands high, getting them inside, you know,
things like that. Is that something that you think, with
the right coaching, you can fix at the next level.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
Yeah, I mean to an extent, I think you really
have to look at the player because oftentimes when the
hands are bad, the feed are two, you know in
terms of positioning, so you really kind of have to
dissect those. And I think with Geydon in particular, you know,
he's just one of the more inexperienced guys in this class.
You know him and Amarius Smims is obviously the one
(27:46):
that everyone talks about, But Geydon is He's a one
year starter. He played defensive line. You know, he hasn't
even been playing offensive line for more than a couple
of years. So this guy's like brand new to the position.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
He's very raw. You could see it. You know.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
He's another guy that you know, I guess if he
gets trapped in the first round, there's a moot point,
but you know, probably could have you know, done well
for himself to come back another year.
Speaker 4 (28:09):
So he's one of those.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Guys that initially it may be very up and down
and kind of dicey, you know, as a rookie, but man,
you know it'd be six eight three twenty and a
move like that is you know. I mean, you saw
it at the Senior Bowl, you see it on tape.
You talk to anybody at Oklahoma, which I've gotten to talk,
you know, to some people there quite a bit about
him for the last couple of years, and they're a
(28:31):
year and a half or so, and like, you know,
it's just so clear that this guy is different, uh
physically in terms of with being six ' eight and
how easy of a mover he is. I said in
my report, he just glides on the field. So you know,
those things are great and nice, but the real the
thing that really makes me like him is he's strong
(28:52):
as well. His anchor is actually really naturally strong. I
think you saw that at the Senior Bowl. Although there
was some up and down stuff there, especially against Nanarius Robinson,
but you see it on tape as well. So the
fact that He's naturally strong, that good of a mover,
that big, that inexperienced, which is kind of a plus
and a minus. Yeah, I would definitely roll the dice
(29:15):
with him in the second round.
Speaker 4 (29:17):
You know, he's.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
Probably gonna go in the first, but I always like
to think of it like, you know, I give him
a second round grade. But you know, if I was
scouting for Philly, you know, he'd be a first round
grade all day. If you know, if I was scouting
for even like a Cincinnati where he can maybe sit,
you know, yeah, I'd feel a lot more comfortable given
the first round grade to a guy like that. So
(29:38):
that's kind of how I see him. And then sum
Mattia is just kind of a little bit of a
step down from that, I think, you know, not not
quite as imposing of a guy as as Tyler Geyton,
I would say, but high pedigree player who the flashes.
Speaker 4 (29:53):
With him are nice.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
I actually saw some good flashes and pass protection using
his hands, but it's just very up and down. So
he's a guy that you know, I would be more
comfortable drafting like firm second round.
Speaker 4 (30:08):
I don't know that I would go first, you.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Know with him, and I you know, honestly with him,
considering he was I think the number three freak on
Bruce Feldman's freak list. I was expecting a better athlete,
you know, when I watched him on film. I think
he's a good athlete, but I was expecting like Tyler Geydon,
you know. So that's kind of why I have him
at that sixth spot, ot six for me. But you know,
(30:32):
definitely a quality prospect. I mean I still like him.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
Find one brand and appreciate you giving us thirty minutes
here has been fantastic. I'll give me one Day three
guy that you really like. That's one of your guys.
And then Giant fans want Evan Deal to kind of
rebound and you know, take the next step and become
a good starting offensive tackle.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
What are the challenges there?
Speaker 3 (30:49):
What does he really need to clean up in your
eyes to turn that corner and become a good starting
of right tackle in the NFL.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
So, yeah, Day three guys, there's a lot of them class,
especially on the interior. I mean, gosh, you know I
would throw out maybe like a Hunter noors Ad, you know,
from Penn State. He's only been playing center one year.
He's a transfer Cornell. You know, he's just I think
made up the right way in terms of processing skills,
(31:17):
competitive toughness. But then he's a really good movie in test.
But you watch the film's he's a really good mover
and he just sticks on blocks pretty well. I just
think he could get better. He could kind of develop
into a starter at center. So he's a guy would
throw out there, but I love the center class. So
there's a lot of centers that I can you know,
(31:37):
just ask me a different one, different day of the week,
and I would, you know, talk about another one. But
he's one of the ones that continually kind of sticks
out for me. And then with Evan Neil, you know,
I thought about this a lot, and I think, well,
first of all, you know, first and foremost, getting healthy
last year was you know, he just wasn't healthy. You know,
most of those seven starts I think he had.
Speaker 3 (31:57):
Though he wasn't the first half of his is the
second half of his year he was playing on a
bad need too.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
To be honest with, he's been healthy for the Giants
like six games. It's been crazy.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
I know, it's it's really unfortunate because he's a guy
who needs every ounce of movement skill that he has,
you know, being three sixty and if you hinder that
and play injured, it's just tough to get a real
good read on who he can be as a pro
now in terms of when he is on the field
and you know, technique wise, I think his biggest thing
(32:26):
is learning to be patient and letting rushers come to
him rather than chasing guys and falling for the stutters
and the tempo and the hesitations and things like that.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
And that's where balance issues come in, right when he
does that sort of stuff.
Speaker 4 (32:39):
Yeah, I mean he needs to learn.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
Ideally he would be he would kind of get the
Dwan Jones treatment, although I think they're different players. The
way that Dwan Jones was used last year and Bill
Callahan's scheme was he was a heavy vertical set guy.
He could mix it up and go get guys, but
for the most part he's setting vertical and what that
does is fort forces rushers to come to you and
(33:02):
it you obviously need to be a guy who can
anchor in that situation because you're going to be closer
to the quarterback. But I think Evan Neil can anchor.
So you know, the thing is if you if you're
vertical setting Evan Neil more often than not, he's not
going to have to get out there on angle forty
five degree sets as often as he you know, sometimes does.
(33:23):
And any three hundred and fifty pound plus guy who
gets out there too much, I mean it's going to
get it's not going to look good, especially if you know,
you're really young. So hopefully he can kind of be
used that way, or at least if he is setting
that way, just to be more patient, you know, with
his hands and play big and let guy forced guy
(33:45):
just stay inside out, force guys to run through you.
And I think that's probably his best bet. In fact,
I kind of know that's his best bet. And we'll
see if he could do it, you know, if he
can have that discipline with his hands to do that.
But uh yeah, I mean he has to get right
physically first. And I don't know how people were writing
them off so quick, honestly, I mean, yeah, I liked
(34:06):
them coming out. Maybe that's part of it. But you know,
he's super young, and you know he's been hurt a lot,
like you know, you know, you got to give this
guy a little bit more time.
Speaker 3 (34:15):
I think, no, I'm with you, And just so fans understand,
when you say vertical set, you mean kind of straight back, right, yeah,
towards the backfield rather than out towards the sideline.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Correct, Yes, And just if people can imagine that in
their mind, vertical setting a tackle straight back, you're going
to be closer to the quarterback. So there's plus and
minus to this. The minus is you're closer to the quarterbacks,
so you're more you're more susceptible to power. But that's
why you typically see the three hundred and forty three
hundred and fifty pounds plus guys vertical setting, because those
(34:47):
are the guys that can handle power. So you're kind
of xing out that minus. And the positive is you're
not playing in that much space, and you just you
cut what the rusher can do in half, you know,
straight up off the top. You know they're not going
to be able to beat you necessarily around the corner
because you're already so deep in the pocket, So you
kind of mitigate the speed aspect of it, and you
(35:10):
kind of play more of a power oriented game. And
typically you see the bigger guys do that, and or
at least the guys that can anchor like Joe Thomas
is kind of an anomaly.
Speaker 4 (35:19):
He did it a lot.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
He's not the biggest guy, but he had a great anchor,
you know, and some other guys have had success with
it as well, you know, Trent.
Speaker 4 (35:26):
Brown being one, and some other guys.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
But yeah, I just think that that approach would probably
give Evan Neil the best chance of being a good
pass protector. And you know, we see the flashes in
the run game, and he's a powerful guy and he's strong,
So I don't think those are the questions. It's just
his discipline and his technique, you know, is the biggest thing.
Speaker 4 (35:49):
I think.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
I apologize for one a couple of minutes long.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
Brandon Carl Brisillo is from the Dante Scarnekia school. Did
he use that type of stuff in New England when
Scarnekia was there? More vertical setting with the bigger guys,
And you mentioned Trent Brown, which is.
Speaker 4 (36:01):
Why I asked, who's that?
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Uh?
Speaker 3 (36:04):
When Scarnekia was in New England? How much did they
use vertical sets with their tackles? Because that's you Briscilla
learned a lot from when he was in a system.
There's Scarnekia.
Speaker 4 (36:13):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
Yeah, I don't know that Scarnekia necessarily majored in that.
You know, I did see Trent Brown doing that there.
But as far as other tackles that played for Scarnakia, uh,
typically they're they were kind of more smaller guys. And
oh yeah Nate Soldier, but he was a finesse kind
of guy like that that wouldn't really fit him. So
uh but you know, Scarnekia is one of those guys
who probably could teach anybody anything, and you know he
(36:37):
was gonna adjust to whoever he has, so yeah, I mean,
which you saw he had so many different kinds of
body type, Shack Mason, Trent Brown, I mean, you know,
six foot six ' eight, like, you know, power, you know,
finesse guys all over the place, you know as well.
So it's like, yeah, Scarnekia is kind of a you know,
his own thing and in some sense, but yeah, like
(36:57):
Bill Callahan, I would say, is a good example of that.
He has used that pretty extensively. And I think that's
a big reason why Dwan Jones was able to have
as much success as he had last year, was because
he was handled in such a great way and so
vertical setting heavy and then when he faced guys like TJ.
Watt or Nick Bosa or some of the matchups he had,
(37:18):
he was provided a lot of help and then he
was kind of unleashed here and there, but it was
in spurts. It was very selective and he just he
was in the perfect spot, you know. So sometimes it
happens like that and guys can get maximized. So hopefully
Neil can kind of get into a similar sort of situation.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
Brandon, awesome stuff again, Thanks for joining us Teldic folks.
One more timing and where they can subscribe to the
Trench Warfare newsletter and everything else you're up to.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
Yeah, so trench Warfare dot substock dot com is where
you could find me, subscribe to my newsletter, get all
my work there, and then social media. Brandon Thorn NFL.
Speaker 3 (37:53):
Thanks for joining us in the Giants Little podcast brought
you by Citizens, the official Bank of the Giants.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
So see you next time. Everybody,
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