January 9, 2025 • 53 mins
On this episode of the Giants Huddle podcast, John Schmeelk chats with Giants beat reporter, Art Stapleton, from the Record, to discuss the Giants’ end of season press conferences, free agency, and the 2025 NFL Draft.
:00 - Future of the team
10:14 - Roster chat
25:37 - 2025 NFL Draft
42:05 - Giants free agents
48:13 - NFL free agents
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's time to get inside the Giants huts. Let's go.
Let's go, Giants, get the Giants, moubble, give me some job.
Part of the Giants Podcast Network.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Let's welcome to another edition of the Giants Little Podcast,
brought to you by Citizens the official bank of the Giants,
johnsh Milk, joined by the one and only Art Stapleton.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Art.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
How are you? Man?
Speaker 3 (00:21):
What's up? John? How are you?
Speaker 1 (00:22):
I'm doing? Good man?
Speaker 2 (00:23):
First of all, before we start, tell all the folks
where they can find You're written content and all your
podcast content.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
North Jersey dot Com USA today. Also my podcast All
In with Art Stapleton. You can find that on all
your podcast platforms and on YouTube. We are a video
audio combination, just like you guys here at the Giants Toddle.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
All right, So, Art, I think out of all the
Beat reporters, you were probably the one that was kind
of on this from the beginning that you did not
think John Marrow would make any major changes after the year.
What made you think that, and just what was your
reaction to everything that was said once that decision was
made earlier this week.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
You know, I certainly wasn't looking to take a victory
lap John in terms of where the things are. But
you know, I think sometimes when emotions get involved, we
kind of go down a certain road that you know,
Mike distort things a little bit. And you know, I
joked earlier this week, even after John Marra made the
decision public that Joe Shane and Brian d Able will
(01:29):
be returning, that the NFL has kind of become that
Real Housewives chapter, you know, it's Real Housewives of three
four five Park Avenue in New York City, because you
just can't predict what's going to happen. And the hardest
thing in this league is to leave emotion out of
it and just treat the situation for what it is now.
(01:50):
You know, I thought along that when Joe Shane and
Brian Dable were hired in twenty twenty two, there there
was an edict from ownership that we are going to
let you build this thing. We're gonna let you break
it down and build it back up. And then when
twenty twenty two happened, there was this emotional high in
(02:12):
this franchise and look, everybody felt it. You had lost
for so long, it had been a decade of despair,
which is what I coined it. And the reality is
is that, you know, maybe it distorted a little bit
of what the reality was because they did so well
in year one and then now the timeline was skewed
(02:33):
a little bit, and I think what you had to
reset and they made mistakes and they looked at things.
But it's a first year general manager, a first year
head coach. And I truly believe when John Maras says
he wants to be patient, I think he does want
to be patient. I think he knows that it has
turned the organization. I mean, John, let's be honest. You're
(02:54):
there on there. We've been there lockstep every day. You
and I not dable in Shane, and we've been through
it all. We've watched it all. History is a precursor
and the Giants for years and years and years, we're
all about continuity and refusal of change. And it's flipped.
(03:15):
It flipped the script. And I think the hardest thing
for John Mahra to do was to be patient. But
I truly believed that they were gonna give these guys
another year. I think they were gonna be honest with
where they're at and and just go with it. And
that's kind of why I felt the way I did.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Yeah, I want to have the how we got here
conversation too, because I think that is complicated and more
nuanced than a lot of people want to give a
credit for. So I think the worst thing that could
have happened at the end of the day here are
was split in the baby And look, we've seen that
before here when they decided to like go Tom Goughlin,
keep Jery Rees right Lecholopatrmer, keep Dave Gettlman, And it
(03:52):
creates problems when you're hiring one guy but not the other.
There might not be continuity there, you know who's reporting
to who. We're seeing that in Jacksonville where they've changed
coaches but kept the general general manager forever.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Right, we've seen the issues with that.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
So I think the way I've kind of talked about
I'm curious what your opinion on it is, is that
would have been the worst case scenario. Right, So then
you're down to, all right, we either do the full
sweep or you keep both. And I just think we
both know that when Dave Gettlman was in the front office,
he's had some good players that he drafted, but the
(04:29):
continuity and the way the building was run up there,
I don't think was something that ownership generally thought was
well put together. Really. I think there was some conflict
and things of that nature, right, and there's been reporting
on that, and I think the way Joe Shane has
really just completely rebuilt the second floor of the building
(04:49):
on that side of the building with bringing in eighty
percent of a new scouting staff right give or take
new people around him in the front office. John Marry
used word process in the press release the Giants put
out when they announced that they would be retaining both
people and even though maybe the results with some of
the draft picks haven't been in exactly what you would like.
(05:11):
And as Joe Shane, I believe it was your question
that he answered during his November press conference that look, yeah,
I've made mistakes over the past two years.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Everything hasn't been perfect.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
That even though sometimes that the results aren't perfect, if
the process is correct, the results are going to get better.
And I think the results start to get better this year.
And I just think the idea to John Maren Steve
Tish to completely once again upending everything that's been built
on the second floor of this building on the football
side over the past two to three years is just
(05:44):
something that would be counter productive for the long term
success of the organization, even though it might make people
happy in the short term.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Totally agree, and I think you laid it out well,
and I do think you know, look, you sit in
that building every day. We sit in there during you know,
I'm in there four times a week, you know, for
the season, and then in the offseason, you know, we
have our time in there for OTAs and draft. But
the reality is that I think a missing component here
that ownership has to take into consideration is the full
(06:15):
business aspect of these decisions, and how when you change
your general manager and your coach, you are now essentially
changing a huge part of the workforce in your building,
and it affects your business. It affects departments that fans
and quite frankly, media and anyone else don't even think
(06:36):
about in terms of a functional business. I mean, you're
talking about a Fortune five hundred company here with the
New York Giants and with every franchise in the NFL.
And the reality is is that when you make changes
like that, you are going to have to change everything
and the health of an organization put the football aside
(06:58):
the health of a business for a decade to change
every two years and then three years, it's devastating to
your business. And I think people will look at the
bottom line and say, sure, the Giants are still worth
you know whatever, it is three billion, four billion the
overall organization with the stadium and everything else. But the
(07:19):
reality is that John Mara and Steve Tish and their
families need to be honest about where the business is
and where the football is and how that meshes. And
I think the best decision for them right now was
to give it some more time. You broke it down.
Now it's time to rebuild. And now it's time. You've
(07:42):
broken everything down. Now it's time to build. And if
they can do that, then they'll get to a better
place in a year. Is that a playoff mandate? Is
there wins? Losses?
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (07:53):
The schedule is so tough. What are we gonna do?
It's January of twenty twenty five. Let's see what you
can do. You now have an opportunity to build this
thing and to take another step forward. You know. The
one thing John that I laugh at is that everyone
always talks about, well, all you guys in the media.
(08:14):
All you guys like to go back and still blame
Reese and McAdoo and Shermer and Gettlemen and Judge and
all those decisions. It's not putting blame on them. This
is now Joe Shane and Brian Dables's product. But the
reality is is that if you want to look back
and you don't think that the product that they inherited
(08:36):
was what happened during those missteps and that they weren't
coming in at a different spot. That was the whole
idea of you take one step forward by bringing in
new people, but organizationally and from a football perspective, you
immediately take another two steps back because now you're digging
out of not only their hole, but now the hole
(08:59):
that you've created by completely changing everything again. And so,
like I said, I asked John Mara that in his
scrum in the field House on Monday, the idea of
you talked about the pain of having to start over,
but you also talked about your belief in Joe Shane
and Brian Dabele. What's stronger. Because if the if you're
(09:21):
making the decision because you just don't want to start over,
that's a recipe for failure. Are you making the decision
because you believe in Joe Shane and Brian Dabele and
you're acknowledging the fact that starting over would be painful.
I think that's a different story. And I truly believe
that John Marras still believes in Joe Shane and Brian
(09:43):
dabel Uh and that's where we're at right now going
into season number four. For them.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Yeah, it's not continuity for continuity's sake, right, because you know,
if you're you know the the expression that I like
is that, yeah, continue to going in the same direction
is great, but if you started going in the wrong direction,
keep going in that direction takes you further away from
your goal, right, It's not a good thing. If you're
going in the wrong direction, they keep going that way.
So they brought those two guys in the revamped the organization.
(10:08):
I think ownership is liked the way they've done that,
even though it hasn't shown up with the results yet,
And I think they believe to your point that they're
on the right path and the results will come because
the process that they've seen these guys go through and
just operating the entire football organization.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
I think is something that they like. And it's funny
you brought this up.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
And I've been thinking a lot about this because I
remember we had Joe Shane on at the combine. I
don't remember if it was before his first season or
if it was after the successful season, and the question
I asked him Art was, you know, you're coming into
in a really tough spot because the team's record was terrible.
I mean I went back and they never had more
(10:47):
than six wins in the five years prior to Brian
Dable and Joe Shane showing up. It was either six
or few wins, and they only had six once in
those five years. But at the same time, they had
zero cap space, which is really a best at wa.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
To be in.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
So while there were good players on the roster, they
were not in a financial position to keep all those players.
And that first year was not even a rebuild year.
That was the preface to a tear down year because
you couldn't even really tear down that first year because
the salary cap situation made that almost impossible. Right, So
you're tearing down and you're not even starting your build
(11:22):
until a year number two. Then you have that year
that no one predicted, no one in the media predicted.
And I think if you gave truth serum to people
in the building, no one here in the building would
have expected either. In that first year those guys are here.
There was a reason that John aren Steve brought those
two guys in to rebuild the organization because they didn't
think they were in a good place. If they thought
they were on the verge of a playoff win, they
might not have made those changes, you know what I mean.
(11:43):
So I think that kind of surprised everybody. And I
go back, you're a Nick fan. Two to the COVID year,
the Nick said, right when Julius Randall had his monster year,
they get the four seed, they lose in the first
round to the Hawks, and they think, all right, well,
let's try to build this now, and we're gonna bring
it Evan forty A. We're gonna bring in these veterans
to try to push it a little bit. And it
didn't work. It failed, and then they had to reset
(12:05):
the following year again. And even though it's a year
that I don't think any Nick fan would give back,
I don't think Giant fans want to give back. Twenty
twenty two, But in a lot of ways it did
I think divert them from the initial path Joe Shane
had them on a little bit, And in the end,
I think it did delay things a bit because at
the end of that year, I think we could tell
(12:27):
by the way they structured the Daniel Jones contract they
weren't all in this guy's definitely answer like we're rocking
and rolling for the next six years. They purposely had
that negotiation, and I think it's telling that it went
down to like the final five minutes of the deadline,
that there was probably a lot of back and forth
on exactly how much how many years you have dedicated
with guaranteed money, how much dead money you're gonna have
(12:48):
after two years, all that type of stuff that you
go into those conversations with right that they needed it
out there, But no sane person can go back and
logically say, after a playoff win season where you're getting
you win a playoff game for the first time since
twenty eleven, that you can tear down and just I
(13:08):
find just let Daniel Jones walk len him it for agency,
It's fine, don't worry about it. Taquan Eyes, a running back,
let him go who cares. That's not something you can do, Like,
no one would have accepted that at that point, So
you're trying to split the baby a little bit. And
I think that was the start of it. And even
without that year, and I go back to my point
on the cap, the team they took over was a
(13:30):
bad football team, but it had some good young players
on it, and it was gonna be tough navigating, well,
this is a tear down, but at the same time,
we want to keep players ABC and deep is then
that takes up cap space, right, and that limits the
tear an one opportunities. So I do think it was
kind of an in between situation in a lot of ways,
with the way the roster was set up, with the cap,
(13:50):
with where the team was performance wise, and just trying
and then throwing that first year of success and trying
to balance all that in terms of how you build,
who you retain, who you don't. How many step backs
do you take to take a step forward? I think,
and I asked that question to Joe when he first
got here, and I think that was always going to
be a very tough thing to navigate, even with older
(14:10):
veterans like Leonard Williams and a Dori Jackson, right, Leonard
Williams was still a good player, but with the way
the team was, it didn't make sense to keep them.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
But you get worse by letting him go.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
So there are all these, you know, drawbacks and advantages
you could take by all of these decisions, and it
was always going to be a tough puzzle to put together,
especially after that first successful season.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Yeah, you know, And I remember being in the press
box in Philadelphia that year, that in twenty twenty two,
and I you know, you'd see, you know, we see
it a little less now because you know, the front
office personnel, you know, they're trying to not be in
a situation where they're walking through with the media in
there and with the reporters, and you know, nobody's looking
to take victory laps or hold press conferences in the
(14:53):
back of the press room every day, you know. But
the reality is that I remember it was right around
the trade deadline and asking Joe Shane. You know, everybody thought,
remember John, everybody thought the Giants should go out and
get a wide receiver that year. Come on, you gotta
make a move, make a move. You're in position, and
this was twenty twenty two when we weren't sure where
(15:15):
the way it was gonna work out, but they had
to win in London and they came back and beat
the Ravens and they were in a little bit of
a slide right around that time, and Joe Shane held
firm said I'm not giving away draft assets. The big
name on the board was Jerry Judy. I played for
Brian Dable and Alabama. You know, we gotta go get
(15:35):
him to throw a second round pick to Denver and
get Jerry Judy here and you know, make a move.
And then there was such I wouldn't say an uproar
because that's probably too strong, but the idea of what
is Joe Shane doing? Why aren't they This team is
in position to compete for a playoff spot. Why aren't
they making moves? And their big move was claiming Isaiah
(15:57):
Hodgens from the Bills the day after to the trade deadline,
and everybody was like, oh, they did nothing. What is
Shane doing? And the reality is is that, you know,
two plus years later, Joe Shane is answering questions about
is he going to make moves to keep his job
next year? And if I'm John mare and Steve Tish.
(16:18):
I look at that first year and I say, you
know what, I had a young general manager who probably
was feeling the pressure a little bit from his coaching staff. Look,
we're here, you know, we can we make a couple moves.
We can compete with Dallas, we can compete with the Eagles.
We could win a playoff game or two. Let get
us some pieces here. Let's let's see what we can do.
(16:39):
And Shane didn't do that. He actually held back. I
fast forward to this off season. Had Joe Shane wanted
to move off of his plan, you know, we saw
John Marra wanted take one Barkley here. Joe Shane knew
what he had to do to keep Sakeuon Barkley. It
may have gone against what he believed the Giants should
(17:01):
do to rebuild, but he knew if he wanted, if
he thought his job was in jeopardy, all he had
to do was go to Saquon Barklay's agent, Ed Barry.
We heard the conversations on hard knocks. All he had
to do was say, hey, we'll give you fourteen a year,
fourteen a year sequans here, let's be done and then
John Merraw walks away a happy man, and Joe Shane
(17:22):
looks at it and goes, you know what, It's not
really what I wanted to do, but I made the
owner happy, so let's move forward.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
And also, by the way, the team's gonna be better
in the short term, so that would have been the
easy decision to make.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
And that's the other thing too, is that when they
made these decisions in the off season. You know, I've
said this to somebody, it's kind of I've developed it
as my line, like when you're in a mess, it's
gonna get a little messy to clean it up. And
the reality is that that's where they're at. This was
going to be a mess whether it was year one,
(17:54):
year two, or year three. Now you've got to clear
it up. And it's been ye it's been hard. With
the Daniel Jones thing and how that played out in
the regular season and Saquon and Xavier McKinney making the
All Pro team and being Pro Bowls. You're going to
take hits the way you expected to. But if you
have a conviction, you need to stick with that, and
(18:17):
I don't think they stuck with that after year one,
and I think they're doing that now, and that goes
back to again, they're hoping that they've set themselves up
now to be able to get a quarterback in here,
maybe get two quarterbacks in here, and follow through and say,
you know what, everybody talking about playoffs next year and wins.
(18:40):
I truly believe that what John Marras said the other
day was true. Mood. Tell me about what the mood
is with this franchise after this year, and then I'll
tell you if everybody's coming back or for making changes.
Because if the mood is that they're moving in the
right direction, they have a quarterback, they feel like these
young are starting together, they have another very good draft,
(19:03):
which is what they had last year. Then you know what,
if you win six or seven games and you don't
make the playoffs, but you feel like you're heading in
the right direction. I don't know necessarily if John Maher's
making changes, then if Steve Tish is saying, you know what, John,
we have to make changes. But that's where you're at.
So I, like I said, it's a mess right now.
It's going to be messy to clean it up. But
(19:24):
after that happens, you hope that you're building towards successful
seasons down the road.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Yeah, look or I agree, And this will be my
last comments used question about what happened before, and then
we'll kind of look ahead here a little bit. And
I apologize with my long retort in between your last
two as toes. I think it's complicated, right, and I
think what I kind of started thinking about, do you?
And I brought this up on a big blue kickoff
earlier in the week. Let's say the Giants decided, look,
(19:51):
we were going to retain Saquon, We're going to retain
Zavid McKinney, we were gonna even let's say they figure
out a way to retain Evan Ingram. You go back
that ball, right, and all those guys get kept, and
you're here, and you're sitting here. Not one of us
would argue that Giants would better today. They would have
won more game, That would be a better football team.
Would they be, truly though, aren't be any closer to
(20:12):
winning its Super Bowl?
Speaker 3 (20:14):
No? No, they wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
No, you wouldn't be.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
And on top of that, you wouldn't have your forty
million in cap space, you wouldn't have your one hundred
million in cap space. Next year, you wouldn't be picking
as high in the draft because your record would be better, right,
And I think the record would be better. But I think,
and this goes to your point in terms of Joe
Shane having a way he wants to go about things,
the path to becoming a super Bowl team might even
(20:41):
be even cloudier because while you would have better players,
you still wouldn't have the flexibility and the ability to
get the key pieces that you need to take those
next step down the road. And again, I think this
is the more difficult path to go down. It requires
more discipline. And that's might give me my next question
for you, But I don't think to say, well, look
(21:02):
at all these good players they like, Oh you know,
why would you do that?
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Well?
Speaker 2 (21:07):
To have a little foresight, sometimes you have to make
tough decisions now that hurt you now to set you
up for more success later. And I think that's kind
of what the thought process is here.
Speaker 3 (21:17):
I agree. And you know what, it is a leap
of faith. It is a searching for benefit of the
doubt when the organization hasn't earned the benefit of the doubt,
sure from it's consumers, from the media, from anyone who's
trying to analyze where this team is.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Oh, by the way, or I don't expect fans to
give them that either. I don't think John Maher expect
the fans to give them that either, to be honest
with you, because in the end, they're the ones buying
the tickets and watching bad football.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
So I get where they're coming from.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
Yeah, and they're spending their hard earned money. I say,
you know what, if you have season tickets, if you
have PSLs, the only thing I could say about the
one guarantee is if the Giants are bad again next year,
guess what, You've got a lot of great teams coming
into MetLife Stadium to play them, So you can sell
your tickets on the secondary market and maybe make up
(22:01):
some of the cash that you're losing and spending out
on those fans. But look, the reality is that John,
all of this is all with the pretense of we
don't know if Joe Shane is right. I don't know
if they're correct as to how to build a football team.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
That oh, there are no guarantee of results here, no
matter what path you know.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
Not at all. I like the fact that they have
a plan. It doesn't necessarily mean the plan is right,
but as opposed to the previous regimes who didn't have
a plan who you know, we all saw how that
thing fell apart in twenty twenty one before Shane and
Dabel got here. I mean, there's a reason why so
(22:40):
much was made about them having a shared vision and
being in lockstep, and this past Monday being the first
time that they didn't have a joint press conference. And
I don't believe that was a statement about Shannon Dabel
and their relationship. I just think Monday was a crazy
day for them and they realize, you know what, but
we got a lot of work to do, and we're
(23:02):
not going to spend time and sit up here in
a joint press conference, you know, trying to sell you
a vision that no one is seeing right now. And
I think that's kind of where they're at right now,
and like you said, moving forward now to what's next.
I always love the analogy and the cliche, the idea
of you've got the rear view mirror and you've got
(23:23):
the wind shield. Why is the windshield always bigger? The
windshield's always bigger because you're supposed to see the bigger
picture in front of you and stop worrying about the
smaller mirror, the rearview mirror that's behind you. But you
don't walk into your car, shut the door and rip
the rear view mirror off. There's a reason why there's
a rearview mirror, and I think they need to have
(23:46):
that perspective moving forward. It's not a blame game. It's
just reality of where they were, and they distorted reality
because of what they were able to do in twenty
twenty two. And now you know what happened in twenty
twenty three. And the last thing I'll say is everybody says, well,
why didn't they just get rid of Daniel Jones and
(24:07):
pick a quarterback? They were now picking twenty sixth. Because
of the season they had, they were probably expecting to
have a top five pick with Bryce Young, CJ. Stroud
and Anthony Richardson who came on at the end and
became the top three picks in that draft. You were
not getting anywhere near that. And if Joe Shane decided,
(24:29):
you know what, we're getting rid of Daniel Jones on
a playoff year. We're going to trade up from twenty
six to get into the top five to get one
of those quarterbacks. If you're walking into John Mara's office
and trying to sell him on that, if you're trying
to sell this fan base on that at the time,
there's no way that's floating. I mean, and it's possible
(24:50):
that if Joe Shane held true to his beliefs, he
would have been out of a job. I mean, that's
the reality here, is that we see what goes on
around the end, and what's happening in New England, and
what happened in Las Vegas, and what's continuing to happen
in Jacksonville year after year after year. Somewhere along the line,
you have to get off the carousel. It doesn't mean
(25:12):
that you leave the building and you say I'm never
getting on a carousel again, but you may look at
it and say, you know what, we've got to do,
what we've got to do to see if we can
capture something here, and if you can't do it, there's
always next year. Fans don't want to hear that, the
media doesn't want to hear that, but it's worth the
risk in their eyes to say, you know what we
(25:32):
believe in the process here, we are going to see
it through. Uh And it's not an unlimit It's not
a limitless process. The reality is that next year they're
going to reassess. But I think that's why all of
this played into this decision that came on Monday.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Huddle up, get in here. If you're lined up here,
you got to go over the middle with at the
score great.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
How do we make that happen?
Speaker 1 (25:56):
I don't know, But does it makes sense of your money?
Speaker 3 (26:00):
With Citizens Official Bank of Eli.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Manning Johnson, the podcast is brought to you by Citizens,
the official bank of the Giants. From game day celebrations
to your everyday financial needs, Big Blue fans can get
the most out of every moment with Citizens. Learn more
at Citizens bank dot com slash Giants. And that goes
back to your Joe Shane point right. I think he's
shown a lot of discipline in the way he's operated
over the past couple of years. I think I remember
in one of the Hard Knocks episodes, you referred to
(26:25):
himself as stubborn, and I think you know, in terms
of how he wants to negotiate, what his beliefs are
in terms of position value, what he wants to pay
certain players, right, And I think we even saw that
in the draft last year, where look the easy solution
there are were just to pick a quarterback at Sex right,
like you know, Daniel, he goes off acl that's the
easy thing I picked.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Just pick the best guy.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
But he's like, no, I think Malik Neighbors is a
much better player. And as I'm much higher grade than
these other quarterbacks, I'm not gonna do anything. I'm gonna
do the tough thing. And now I think moving forward,
And I wasn't sure if you asked this question to
Joe Shane or somebody else else, but he asked about
trying to again push the accelerator and win this year now,
(27:06):
because obviously the results of the last year have him
been good. And obviously John marrav pointed out that the
patience is wearing thin for the results, and he said, look, guys, look,
I was brought here to do what's in the best
long term interest of the Giants, and I think if
he shows that same type of discipline moving forward, you're
not going to run into a situation where you're you know,
(27:27):
backloading contracts, your training future picks to move up for
a player that maybe you don't believe is the best
player in the draft. Because he's a quarterback, and I
think that discipline is really going to get put to
the test. And I think based on what we've seen,
I think you have to have some confidence that Joe
Shane will stick to his principles in this situation.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
And there's not going to be reaches.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
There's not going to be reckless salary cat management, because
that's just something that I don't think he's shown that
he's willing to do in his first three years here.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
Yeah, And I think whatever carries through here is where
Joe Shane, you know, he's building. This was his clean
you know, he had to come in and show that
he can be a general manager in this league. And
the reality is that there have been ups and downs.
I mean, look, hard knocks off season may never exist
again because the Giants open themselves up to criticism that
(28:15):
organizations will not do in the NFL. And I will
make the argument that what we saw the Giants go
through in their off season, that's probably the tip of
the iceberg compared to what teams go through. How the
sausage is made in the NFL. And to see how
that was received around the league and portrayed and constantly
(28:39):
going back to what was on camera. I mean, there
is no arguing the idea of this happened. These things happened.
Now were they taken out of context? Perhaps that we
don't see all of the footage and all of the video.
But the reality is is that Joe Shane wants to
work in this league for a very long time. I
have no reason to think others. So if he compromises
(29:03):
where he wants things to be just for the sake
of trying to squeeze out a few more wins this year,
and then those wins don't come, well, guess what then
Joe Shane's gonna be out of a job. And who
knows if he gets another GM job anywhere in the league,
because now he's been put out front and center and
we all see how he operates. And you know, the
(29:26):
funny thing is you mentioned John the negotiations. Think about that,
Shane was a first year general manager coming off of
a playoff year, and he had to negotiate contracts with
the four best players on the roster, and this was
his first negotiating period for the current team that he's
(29:46):
gonna have as a general manager. It was Sakwa Barkley,
Daniel Jones, Andrew Thomas, and oh, by the way, Dexter Lawrence.
So he signed Andrew Thomas and Dexter Lawrence to extensions
that continue to look like great deals because yes, I
know Andrew's injury and dex are under the year injury injured,
(30:07):
but those contracts are going to continue to look good.
So all the focus was on those contracts, the Saquon
Barkley and Daniel Jones. The reality is is nobody's bringing
up the contracts for Andrew Thomas and Dan and Dexter Lawrence,
which are good contracts, and obviously they have to stay
healthy and they have to win. So that's the way
(30:28):
it is. But you know, look, I think we keep
saying Joe Shane, Jo'shane. I do believe that they've built
around him. I think Joe's done a good job. And
that is the stark difference between this general manager and
Dave Gettleman. Is that a lot of times it was
Dave Gettleman and the field, But now I do believe
(30:50):
it is Joe Shane and Brandon Brown and Chris Rosetti
and Dennis Hickey and Tim McDonald and all of their scouts.
They feel like they're they feel like they have a
process in place, and I think that had gone by
the wayside for the two previous general managers that were here.
So when John Marras says, I'm here every day, I
(31:13):
see the structure we have, that's what he's talking about.
He's not talking about hits and missus in the draft.
He's not talking.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
About, by the way, are even the best general manager
has hits or missus in the draft?
Speaker 1 (31:25):
It happens to ever.
Speaker 3 (31:26):
Look at Less Snead and in the Rams, and now,
you know, Less Snead, obviously you win a Super Bowl,
it was f them picks. Then now the Rams are
built because they've made incredible picks with the two defensive
guys with Verse, you know, and all they they've done.
But Snead's first couple of years were really bad. I mean,
it was brutal what they had to do. And then
(31:48):
they went off and they pulled off the big trade
with Matthew Matthew Stafford. And you know, for years it
was are they ever gonna win anything with Aaron Donald.
So it's just an interesting scenario that I think front office, John,
when has this timeline been so accelerated to the point
where guys are getting fired and they're restarting things one
(32:13):
or two years into the length of the rookie contracts
that you inherited or that you brought in. It's really like,
I don't know where it started, but it's really incredible
to think that the lack of patience. And again, I
get it sometimes you know guys can't do the job.
You watch it, you see it. But it's to think
(32:34):
that a front office can have two drafts or three
drafts and their first draft class is on year four
of their rookie contracts and you're already saying that's it, busts,
they can't do it, They're out. We got to bring
new people in. I don't know how that's sustainable over
the course of a certain number of years. And you know,
(32:56):
maybe it is, but I personally don't see how it
can be sustained.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
Now, I'm with you. And look, that's not to say
that mistakes haven't been made. That haven't been missteps. Joe
Shane admitted that himself and his multiple press conferences. We're
not trying to make that case, but we're just trying
to put everything into context. All right, let let's talk
about next year. Let's kind of work chronologically. Do you
would you expect or what are your thoughts to put
that potential changes on the coaching staff, and I will
include even Brian Dable potentially calling plays next year or not.
(33:23):
I'm assuming we're not going to get that answer till August,
because you know we didn't get that the last two
years either. But your thoughts on what if anything might
happen with this coaching staff over the next couple of weeks.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
You know, look, everybody took what John Marras said about
the defense and tired of watching teams go up and
down the field on the Giants this year as a
shot at Shane Bowen as defensive coordinator. I mean, look,
you brought in Shane Bowen. We knew it was going
to be a stark contrast and what you had in
Wake Martindale. You know, you had the most aggressive defense
that you could possibly have in the NFL. And then
(33:54):
you you know, even if Bowen was aggressive, it was
nowhere near what you were aggressive the year before. I think,
you know, I don't know necessarily if they're looking to say, well,
Shane Bowen is going to be fired and we need
to bring in a whole new defense, because I don't
know necessarily if that's a great thing for this coaching
staff and for the players that are here. But you know,
Mike Grabel is a hot coaching candidate by the time
(34:16):
this ahirs. Who knows Mike Grabel might be the coach
in New England or somewhere else. You know, Shane Bone
is his guy. So it wouldn't surprise me in the
least if Mike Grabel made a call to the Giants
and said, hey, do we have permission to interview Shane
Bowen for our DC. And in that situation, maybe that's
when you say, you know what, maybe it's best for
Shane to go. Maybe it's best for us to kind
(34:37):
of restructure and see how this is. But there's no
solution right now that's out there that I think you
can say, Well, it has to be this defensive coordinator
that they bring in and it'll change everything. I think
they have to, you know, admit and acknowledge the fact
that as much as Joe Shane said they drafted for
the player and not necessarily for the system, there are
(34:59):
players on this d defense specifically that were drafted for
the Wink Martindale system. That maybe had a hard time
adjusting to the Shane Bones system. Tay Banks is one
of those guys that you know, you wanted him to
be aggressive and a press man guy, and now this
year he didn't play well. I'm not saying that's the
excuse as to why he didn't have a great year,
but I think that you have to embrace that a
(35:21):
little bit more and realize and acknowledge, you know what,
maybe we leaned a little bit too much on Wink
Martindale when he was here in drafting the players, and
you know that is an issue for the coaching staff.
As far as Dables play calling. You know, look, I
think he probably can put together a tape of you know,
thirty I'll limit it to thirty plays that should have
(35:43):
been made and we're not made in key games this year.
And you know, we all go back to the flea
flicker in Germany, but that was up and down every
week you had three or four plays. Now you can
make the argument that you don't have the personnel to
make those plays. So why is the play caller in
this case, Brian d Ables still calling those plays? You know,
(36:04):
that's something to examine. What happens with Mike Kafka. Is
Mike Kafka gone. We know he's he's interviewing for head
coaching jobs. Will he move for a lateral move? Will
he stay here? What happens then? Does Sha Tierney take
over as offensive coordinator? Did they bring someone everyone's talking about,
Davis Webb. I don't know if that's a move to
(36:24):
make here, But the bottom line is, I think this
coaching staff needs to get together and needs to kind
of reinvent a little bit of the way they do
things and put more emphasis on week to week changes
rather than just saying, you know, what's gonna come together.
I think defensively they were stuck on that a little bit. So,
(36:46):
you know, I don't know. I think it's a wait
and see right now. I think you you let let
the dust settle over the next week or so and
see which guys want to go elsewhere. You know there
will be we saw last year. You know, there were
coaches who supposedly reportedly wanted to get out of here
because of Brian Dable and they didn't like the way
things were. But I know from talking to some coaches
(37:07):
they wanted better opportunities. You know, there was a coach
you know that wanted to leave, you know, the tight
Ends coach. You know, he ended up going to the
Chargers because he grew up in Jim Harborough's system, or
at least John Harbaugh and wanted to you know, be
with Greg Roman again. You know that that kind of thing.
You know. I think we're still going to see how
(37:29):
this happens. I don't think it's good for Brian Able
to completely overhaul yet again. But you got to bring
the best coaches in here. And if you can get
better coaches and you can get a better plan and
help your players, then you need to do it, and
you need to do it. You need to do it
fast because you can't just boot another season after this.
(37:49):
And I think that they have to be honest with
where they're at right now.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
All right, how do you think they approached a quarterback situation?
Speaker 3 (37:55):
Your art?
Speaker 2 (37:55):
I'm of the throw as many darted the board as possible,
veteran rookie. Yes, yes, yes to all everything. How do
you think they're going to approach it?
Speaker 3 (38:04):
Yeah? I think that'll be it. I mean, and look,
Tommy DeVito is the only player that has a potential
of being back. You know, he's an exclusive rights free agent.
You know, people don't hear that often, but the reality
is they're going to pick up the exclusive rights free
agent at minimum contract. If they don't or if Tommy
doesn't sign the exclusive rights free agent, he can't play
(38:25):
in the NFL this year. So the reality is when
Joe Shane says Tommy's the only one under contract, he's
going to be under contract after that. You know, look,
we're gonna see how free agency plays out. I think
they signed someone. I don't think they put big money
into it. Maybe there's a trade to be had if
a guy can come in, like a Russell Wilson situation
last year, where you know, he was pennies to sign.
(38:50):
You know, I remember asking Joe Shane, why did you
guys talk to Russell Wilson? He said, well, why wouldn't
you You can get up that potential, backup as a
Super Bowl champ at all, why wouldn't you do that?
So maybe they'll explore that opportunity. I still think that
they need to draft somebody that is going to bring
future promise to this organization. Now that may not mean
(39:13):
next year he's starting right off the bat, but I think,
like you said.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
Does that mean third overall necessarily to you or a
trade up or could that be a guy at the
top of the second round back into the first of
you trade up?
Speaker 3 (39:24):
Yeah, I mean I think I think either or I
think you know, the reality is that if if I
love Shdor Sanders or cam Ward and I have a
chance to get one of those two or you know,
I end up writing today. I know this is posting
on Friday.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
But not I think we moved up. I think it's
gould be Thursday afternoon now, so you should be okay.
Speaker 3 (39:41):
So so we're posting, and you know, the Orange Bowl
tonight with Drew Aller going against Notre Dame. You know,
talking to some of the you know, the analysts that
you and I both respect, you know who do great jobs.
You know, Dame Brugler, Jordan Reid from ESPN. You know,
they talked to me about Aler a month ago. Now,
Aller ended up saying he's coming back to Penn State.
But you know, if he has a big game against
(40:01):
Notre Dame and ends up winning a national championship for
Penn State in a week and a half, you know,
maybe he reconsiders. If he makes the national championship, he
has until the twenty fourth, which is four days after
the National championship. Now, I'm not saying that Alo would
be the Giants guy, but another quarterback to consider might
change the way the top three picks play out. You
(40:23):
know I mentioned throwing darts. Everyone's talking about Jackson Dart
at ole Miss. You know they want to say, is
he a guy Jalen Milroe? You know? Look, all I
know is that the biggest takeaway from Hard Knocks to
me should have been watching Brian Dable with those quarterbacks,
knowing that when Joe Shane came back to them and said,
(40:44):
would you trade up for Jaden Daniels and Dable said
absolutely I would, and we know they like Drake May
as well. You have to take that confidence and the
fact that in process, again the guys that they liked,
and they knew they like them, they couldn't get them,
but look how they're performing. You have to take that
(41:05):
and say, you know what, I like Dables process to
pick these quarterbacks, and I will lean on him. And
if he says I wouldn't draft these guys in that spot,
don't draft them, or yeah, give me a shot, I
can turn that guy into a starter. That we meet here.
I'm leaning on it. That's why Dable's here. If you
(41:26):
cannot rely on your head coach in that situation, then
you should have just moved on on Monday. You need
to trust that these guys are gonna do the right
thing for the quarterback, for this for this organization. So
I think you're gonna have a free agent. I think
you'll have a rookie, and then you move on and
you see, Let's see how things play out in you know,
(41:48):
twenty twenty five. Do you have a Kurt Warner Eli
Manning scenario in twenty four when you had them move
to that. I'm not sure. I don't know if that's
the way it's gonna be. But I've seen plenty of examples.
Look in Minnesota this year, Look what happened at Atlanta,
you know, And they're positives and negatives from both of
those scenarios as how it played out. But I think
(42:11):
the Giants will be in a situation where they're gonna
have to again make some hard decisions and you know,
and then live with the consequences.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
If you want to know how to manage two minutes
of crunch time football, I'm your man. But if you're
wondering about a long term financial plan, you should talk
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Speaker 2 (42:33):
Johnsonville podcast brought to you by Citizens Official Bank of
the Giants. Citizens will donate seven hundred and fifty dollars
of the Giants Foundation for each scoring drive during the
twenty twenty four season. Learn more at Citizens bank dot
com slash Giants two. More on free agency are before
we let you go. I appreciate all the time. This
has been fun and hopefully we've we provided some context
everything that's going on here for the fans out there.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
The Giants own free agents. Let's go there. First.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
We got a couple guys on both sides of the
ball that were starters, Greg Van Roten, Jason in Pinnock,
two of the major guys Darius Slayton another that gets
significant playing time that are free agents. Your thoughts on
what the Giants approach of those three guys might be.
Speaker 3 (43:09):
You know, I don't know necessarily if Greg Van Roten
all of a sudden is going to be looking for
a monster deal. You know, back in the summer when
he signed here, he talked about how important it was
for him and his wife or the young family to
be close to Long Island where he grew up, where
she was from, the idea that you know, they like
their family network here. So I would have no problem
(43:30):
bringing Greg Van Broughton back on a fair contract. I'm
not breaking the bank for Greg Van Roten to come
back here, and I don't think he would expect to
do that. But he gave you flexibility up front. I
would would not count on him as being your lock,
you know, starter at right guard or even at center,
but he gives you that flexibility. As far as Darius
(43:50):
Slayton goes, you know, look, I think there's tremendous value
there in terms of where he has been on that contract.
I think think you know they made the right call
by playing him this year. He was a better wide
receiver than Jalen Hyatt was. Now, granted you win three games,
kind of wish you play I kind of wish they
played Highatt more to see if he could come out
(44:14):
of that shell, if you could pull something out of Hyatt,
because now you go into a situation where I don't
know if they're going to sign Darius Slayton. I would
sit down, I talk to him, see what he wants
to do. I get the sense that he wants to
kind of explore other options and see where he's at
and then which is what he did a couple of
years ago and ended up coming back to the Giants anyway,
when everybody insisted that when Joe Shane forced him to
(44:37):
take a pay cut, there's no way he's coming back
to the Giants, and ended up he ended up coming back.
And that was really the deal that cost them Julian
Love because Julian Love and Darius Slayton had the same
offer on the table, and when Darius took it, when
Julian Love called back and said to Joe Shane, hey,
I got this deal on the table. You know what,
(44:59):
you guys man, they had already given it to slay
so they couldn't bring Julian Love back. Maybe had they
done that differently, maybe we'd be talking about safety a
little differently for them. But the other one would be
Jason Pinnock. It's very interesting to see the value of Pinnock.
If I'm the Giants, I'm maybe looking for another another
(45:22):
option there to pair with Tyler Nuben and you still
have Dane Belton on the roster. You know, I like Pinnock.
I like him as a player. I think they've got
a lot out of him since they claimed him from
the Jets. But Pinnock may want a little bit bigger
deal than what I think the Giants would would offer him. Uh.
(45:42):
So I'd look there and maybe maybe I can, you know,
look at my structure of my defense, what it looks like,
and can I find another player for the same economical
price that maybe fits better with Tyler Nuben and what
I want to do defensively at safety. So right now,
I'd say Grin greg Gren will be back. I'd be
(46:05):
surprised if Slayton is back.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (46:08):
And you know Pinnock, I'm not really sure what his
market will be. So that's kind of where where i'd stand.
With those three guys.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
I should throw Aziz Ojewire into the next He would
be the fourth guy. I think that I think is
probably maybe the most interesting conversation of the four because
when he plays, he's productive.
Speaker 3 (46:23):
Yeah, no doubt. I mean, if you can get disease
on a one year deal to come back and be
that third guy, with Burns and Thibodeau, I think, you
know that would intrigue me to have him back. You know,
you never have enough pass rushers. We all know that
in this organization. But if his ease gets a big
money deal, I don't know necessarily if I'd race to
go do that. I'd almost rather draft somebody, bring him in,
(46:47):
maybe develop behind Thibodeau and Burns, because you know, Thibodeau,
You've have the fifty year option question this spring that
you're gonna have to answer and see where that ends up.
The other one that I think is important on a
guy who is a free agent, and I don't know
if you know him going down this road, but Amir
Smith Marsette came in, and I think they found a
(47:09):
specialist here. I mean, probably the best specialist they've had
since Dwayne Harris. Reminds me a little bit of a
Dominic kicks in in terms of, you know, believes that
he can be a factor as like that fourth wide receiver.
So I'd like to see ice ism come back here
because I think he brought some juice as a returner
and I'm not even talking about the you know, the
(47:31):
kickoff return for one hundred yards. I think he kind
of represents something. I don't think he's gonna break the bank,
but I'd want to bring a guy like that back.
He seemed to really mesh personality wise. He brought some
juice into the locker room. And again everybody looks at
it and says, you won three games, what's the difference.
But I think I think he's a player that they found,
(47:51):
you know, through kind of an alternative route to pick
him up at the way they did mid season. So
he's another guy that I would look to bring back
and really, you know, want to get that done before
free agency and said, we want to give you a
shot at wide receiver, but we love you as a
as a specialist. You know, come come back here, give
(48:13):
you a two to three year deal. Maybe we give
you some security your home in New Jersey. So he's
another guy that I would mention as far as a
guy who is free, but you know, maybe not so
much free if you make that move.
Speaker 2 (48:26):
All right, final question art in terms of the rest
of the free agent pie, right, the money you have
to spend, Joe Shane said, all have over forty million
dollars to spend, and to me, I think when we've
seen this team go out there and spend, you know,
moderate contracts on players.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
I think they've worked out for the most part.
Speaker 2 (48:43):
I think that's what you saw the Bills do a
lot when Joe Shane was there with Brandon Bean right,
Jermaine a luminor good value contract John Runyon Junior. I
think you got a pretty happy with the value of
that contract. Go back two years. The Sean Robinson contract,
I think ended up being a pretty good value right
with with with what they spent on him GVR. For
the cost of that contract, you get a guy that
was a solid starter for you for like sixteen games
that played multiple spots.
Speaker 1 (49:05):
That's a win.
Speaker 2 (49:06):
And I think given where this team is, they have
some star power, right the Dexters, the Brian Burns', the
Andrew Thomas is the leak neighbors. I think the way
they'll go through this is to try to even out
this roster a little bit, fill a lot of holes
with some good solid veterans that you can get dependable
play from, to fill some of these gaps, to just
(49:27):
clean up some of the problems that you've had on
this roster over the past couple of years. And I
think that's probably gonna be the best use of your money,
unlike last year when such a large chunk went to
Brian Burns, which, by the way, I think Burns has
been great. I think that ended up working out okay
as well. But I don't feel like we're gonna get
that big splash this offseason. I think it's the pie
is gonna get spread out a little bit deeper to
(49:49):
multiple guys.
Speaker 3 (49:51):
Yeah, I think that's kind of their approach. I think,
you know, Shane mentioned back in year one the idea
of don't shop hungry, you know, And I think the
job did that back in twenty sixteen. And I think
if you get Tom Kofflin in the room, he's probably
still angry that they splurged on the defense a year
before when we knew the defense was really the reason
(50:13):
that that twenty fifteen just kind of went in the tank.
But yeah, I mean, I think the one price point,
obviously we mentioned quarterback. I think they'll look for a quarterback.
I don't think it'll be a high price quarterback in
free agency. But the other one, there's an interior offensive
lineman in Kansas City that a lot of Giants fans
(50:34):
wanted a couple of years ago in the draft and
he slipped and slipped and slipped and slipped because he
had you know, blood clots and his lungs and you
know who I'm talking about, the reality is that now
he's a free agent, I believe this year. So he's
somebody that I might make a play for. If I'm
going to give some good money. That's where I'm giving
(50:54):
the money.
Speaker 1 (50:55):
That's gonna be a lot of money, and it is.
Speaker 3 (50:58):
But I'm giving it on off defensive line or I'm
doing defensive line anywhere else, and maybe if there's a
corner on the market. I did not look on the
market for what the corners were this year yet. But
other than that, I like your you know, your idea.
The idea is that, look, I'm not looking to just
(51:19):
you know, but get fifteen free agents at minimal contracts.
You know, the illumin Or contract was a solid contract.
Runyon was a solid contract. But now you have those
guys coming back. Maybe I'm looking at is there a
center out there? I mean, what are their feelings on
John Michael Schmid's going into year three? Is he definitely
the starter? What are they doing you know at right guard?
(51:43):
I think that's also a spot, you know, and you
got to get some players next to Dexter Lawrence. You know,
Nacho played pretty well this year or was it least solid?
Wasn't an impact player, but he's there. You know, he's
a solid guy to have in a rotation. But you know,
Elijah Chapman, you love what you got out of an
undrafted rookie, but let's be honest, they can really use
(52:06):
an impact player next to Des. I think Ashawn Robinson
was that down the stretch of the previous year. I
think you need to find that player to pair with
Dexter moving forward and say, you know what, you are
not going to double decks with the guys we have
at edge and then we have decks on inside. If
you're going to run away from decks and you know,
(52:27):
I think it was Burns or somebody said about using
decks as a crutch. It's a positive crutch and it's
a negative crutch. When you lose them, it's a crutch,
but also when you have them there, it's a little
bit of a crutch. Don't just say that Dexter is
going to dominate everything, because it's not fair to him.
You want to take advantage of him and use him
(52:48):
to be able to break everything off defensively in a
positive way, not a negative way. So that's kind of
where I'm looking at for free agency. I think you've
got a lot of young players here that it's time
to kind of as Tom Coffin would say, you know,
it's it's move on, it's time to step up here.
So a lot of the guys who got flowers this year,
(53:10):
as far as being promising rookies in year two, these
six or seven guys have to be the guys that
are forming your core here, and if you're looking to
sign to replace them, then that's also a problem and
maybe a misread as to where you were after this year.
Speaker 2 (53:26):
Yeah, and continue to improving from the twenty twenty three
and twenty two and two drift classes as well.
Speaker 1 (53:30):
That's going to be the foundation of the team absolutely.
Speaker 2 (53:32):
All right, this was fun man, good stuff. I appreciate
the time. So after taking a little bit long, let's
keep up. I'm sure we'll be hanging out the combine together.
That'll be fun and we'll talk soon.
Speaker 1 (53:41):
All right. Sounds great, John Art Stapleton again, check them out.
Speaker 2 (53:46):
Thanks for joining us on the gihns little podcast, brought
to you by Citizens Official Bank of the Giants.
Speaker 1 (53:49):
We'll see you next time. Everybody
It's time to get inside the Giants huts. Let's go.
Let's go, Giants, get the Giants, moubble, give me some job.
Part of the Giants Podcast Network.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Let's welcome to another edition of the Giants Little Podcast,
brought to you by Citizens the official bank of the Giants,
johnsh Milk, joined by the one and only Art Stapleton.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Art.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
How are you? Man?
Speaker 3 (00:21):
What's up? John? How are you?
Speaker 1 (00:22):
I'm doing? Good man?
Speaker 2 (00:23):
First of all, before we start, tell all the folks
where they can find You're written content and all your
podcast content.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
North Jersey dot Com USA today. Also my podcast All
In with Art Stapleton. You can find that on all
your podcast platforms and on YouTube. We are a video
audio combination, just like you guys here at the Giants Toddle.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
All right, So, Art, I think out of all the
Beat reporters, you were probably the one that was kind
of on this from the beginning that you did not
think John Marrow would make any major changes after the year.
What made you think that, and just what was your
reaction to everything that was said once that decision was
made earlier this week.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
You know, I certainly wasn't looking to take a victory
lap John in terms of where the things are. But
you know, I think sometimes when emotions get involved, we
kind of go down a certain road that you know,
Mike distort things a little bit. And you know, I
joked earlier this week, even after John Marra made the
decision public that Joe Shane and Brian d Able will
(01:29):
be returning, that the NFL has kind of become that
Real Housewives chapter, you know, it's Real Housewives of three
four five Park Avenue in New York City, because you
just can't predict what's going to happen. And the hardest
thing in this league is to leave emotion out of
it and just treat the situation for what it is now.
(01:50):
You know, I thought along that when Joe Shane and
Brian Dable were hired in twenty twenty two, there there
was an edict from ownership that we are going to
let you build this thing. We're gonna let you break
it down and build it back up. And then when
twenty twenty two happened, there was this emotional high in
(02:12):
this franchise and look, everybody felt it. You had lost
for so long, it had been a decade of despair,
which is what I coined it. And the reality is
is that, you know, maybe it distorted a little bit
of what the reality was because they did so well
in year one and then now the timeline was skewed
(02:33):
a little bit, and I think what you had to
reset and they made mistakes and they looked at things.
But it's a first year general manager, a first year
head coach. And I truly believe when John Maras says
he wants to be patient, I think he does want
to be patient. I think he knows that it has
turned the organization. I mean, John, let's be honest. You're
(02:54):
there on there. We've been there lockstep every day. You
and I not dable in Shane, and we've been through
it all. We've watched it all. History is a precursor
and the Giants for years and years and years, we're
all about continuity and refusal of change. And it's flipped.
(03:15):
It flipped the script. And I think the hardest thing
for John Mahra to do was to be patient. But
I truly believed that they were gonna give these guys
another year. I think they were gonna be honest with
where they're at and and just go with it. And
that's kind of why I felt the way I did.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Yeah, I want to have the how we got here
conversation too, because I think that is complicated and more
nuanced than a lot of people want to give a
credit for. So I think the worst thing that could
have happened at the end of the day here are
was split in the baby And look, we've seen that
before here when they decided to like go Tom Goughlin,
keep Jery Rees right Lecholopatrmer, keep Dave Gettlman, And it
(03:52):
creates problems when you're hiring one guy but not the other.
There might not be continuity there, you know who's reporting
to who. We're seeing that in Jacksonville where they've changed
coaches but kept the general general manager forever.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Right, we've seen the issues with that.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
So I think the way I've kind of talked about
I'm curious what your opinion on it is, is that
would have been the worst case scenario. Right, So then
you're down to, all right, we either do the full
sweep or you keep both. And I just think we
both know that when Dave Gettlman was in the front office,
he's had some good players that he drafted, but the
(04:29):
continuity and the way the building was run up there,
I don't think was something that ownership generally thought was
well put together. Really. I think there was some conflict
and things of that nature, right, and there's been reporting
on that, and I think the way Joe Shane has
really just completely rebuilt the second floor of the building
(04:49):
on that side of the building with bringing in eighty
percent of a new scouting staff right give or take
new people around him in the front office. John Marry
used word process in the press release the Giants put
out when they announced that they would be retaining both
people and even though maybe the results with some of
the draft picks haven't been in exactly what you would like.
(05:11):
And as Joe Shane, I believe it was your question
that he answered during his November press conference that look, yeah,
I've made mistakes over the past two years.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Everything hasn't been perfect.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
That even though sometimes that the results aren't perfect, if
the process is correct, the results are going to get better.
And I think the results start to get better this year.
And I just think the idea to John Maren Steve
Tish to completely once again upending everything that's been built
on the second floor of this building on the football
side over the past two to three years is just
(05:44):
something that would be counter productive for the long term
success of the organization, even though it might make people
happy in the short term.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Totally agree, and I think you laid it out well,
and I do think you know, look, you sit in
that building every day. We sit in there during you know,
I'm in there four times a week, you know, for
the season, and then in the offseason, you know, we
have our time in there for OTAs and draft. But
the reality is that I think a missing component here
that ownership has to take into consideration is the full
(06:15):
business aspect of these decisions, and how when you change
your general manager and your coach, you are now essentially
changing a huge part of the workforce in your building,
and it affects your business. It affects departments that fans
and quite frankly, media and anyone else don't even think
(06:36):
about in terms of a functional business. I mean, you're
talking about a Fortune five hundred company here with the
New York Giants and with every franchise in the NFL.
And the reality is is that when you make changes
like that, you are going to have to change everything
and the health of an organization put the football aside
(06:58):
the health of a business for a decade to change
every two years and then three years, it's devastating to
your business. And I think people will look at the
bottom line and say, sure, the Giants are still worth
you know whatever, it is three billion, four billion the
overall organization with the stadium and everything else. But the
(07:19):
reality is that John Mara and Steve Tish and their
families need to be honest about where the business is
and where the football is and how that meshes. And
I think the best decision for them right now was
to give it some more time. You broke it down.
Now it's time to rebuild. And now it's time. You've
(07:42):
broken everything down. Now it's time to build. And if
they can do that, then they'll get to a better
place in a year. Is that a playoff mandate? Is
there wins? Losses?
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (07:53):
The schedule is so tough. What are we gonna do?
It's January of twenty twenty five. Let's see what you
can do. You now have an opportunity to build this
thing and to take another step forward. You know. The
one thing John that I laugh at is that everyone
always talks about, well, all you guys in the media.
(08:14):
All you guys like to go back and still blame
Reese and McAdoo and Shermer and Gettlemen and Judge and
all those decisions. It's not putting blame on them. This
is now Joe Shane and Brian Dables's product. But the
reality is is that if you want to look back
and you don't think that the product that they inherited
(08:36):
was what happened during those missteps and that they weren't
coming in at a different spot. That was the whole
idea of you take one step forward by bringing in
new people, but organizationally and from a football perspective, you
immediately take another two steps back because now you're digging
out of not only their hole, but now the hole
(08:59):
that you've created by completely changing everything again. And so,
like I said, I asked John Mara that in his
scrum in the field House on Monday, the idea of
you talked about the pain of having to start over,
but you also talked about your belief in Joe Shane
and Brian Dabele. What's stronger. Because if the if you're
(09:21):
making the decision because you just don't want to start over,
that's a recipe for failure. Are you making the decision
because you believe in Joe Shane and Brian Dabele and
you're acknowledging the fact that starting over would be painful.
I think that's a different story. And I truly believe
that John Marras still believes in Joe Shane and Brian
(09:43):
dabel Uh and that's where we're at right now going
into season number four. For them.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Yeah, it's not continuity for continuity's sake, right, because you know,
if you're you know the the expression that I like
is that, yeah, continue to going in the same direction
is great, but if you started going in the wrong direction,
keep going in that direction takes you further away from
your goal, right, It's not a good thing. If you're
going in the wrong direction, they keep going that way.
So they brought those two guys in the revamped the organization.
(10:08):
I think ownership is liked the way they've done that,
even though it hasn't shown up with the results yet,
And I think they believe to your point that they're
on the right path and the results will come because
the process that they've seen these guys go through and
just operating the entire football organization.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
I think is something that they like. And it's funny
you brought this up.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
And I've been thinking a lot about this because I
remember we had Joe Shane on at the combine. I
don't remember if it was before his first season or
if it was after the successful season, and the question
I asked him Art was, you know, you're coming into
in a really tough spot because the team's record was terrible.
I mean I went back and they never had more
(10:47):
than six wins in the five years prior to Brian
Dable and Joe Shane showing up. It was either six
or few wins, and they only had six once in
those five years. But at the same time, they had
zero cap space, which is really a best at wa.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
To be in.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
So while there were good players on the roster, they
were not in a financial position to keep all those players.
And that first year was not even a rebuild year.
That was the preface to a tear down year because
you couldn't even really tear down that first year because
the salary cap situation made that almost impossible. Right, So
you're tearing down and you're not even starting your build
(11:22):
until a year number two. Then you have that year
that no one predicted, no one in the media predicted.
And I think if you gave truth serum to people
in the building, no one here in the building would
have expected either. In that first year those guys are here.
There was a reason that John aren Steve brought those
two guys in to rebuild the organization because they didn't
think they were in a good place. If they thought
they were on the verge of a playoff win, they
might not have made those changes, you know what I mean.
(11:43):
So I think that kind of surprised everybody. And I
go back, you're a Nick fan. Two to the COVID year,
the Nick said, right when Julius Randall had his monster year,
they get the four seed, they lose in the first
round to the Hawks, and they think, all right, well,
let's try to build this now, and we're gonna bring
it Evan forty A. We're gonna bring in these veterans
to try to push it a little bit. And it
didn't work. It failed, and then they had to reset
(12:05):
the following year again. And even though it's a year
that I don't think any Nick fan would give back,
I don't think Giant fans want to give back. Twenty
twenty two, But in a lot of ways it did
I think divert them from the initial path Joe Shane
had them on a little bit, And in the end,
I think it did delay things a bit because at
the end of that year, I think we could tell
(12:27):
by the way they structured the Daniel Jones contract they
weren't all in this guy's definitely answer like we're rocking
and rolling for the next six years. They purposely had
that negotiation, and I think it's telling that it went
down to like the final five minutes of the deadline,
that there was probably a lot of back and forth
on exactly how much how many years you have dedicated
with guaranteed money, how much dead money you're gonna have
(12:48):
after two years, all that type of stuff that you
go into those conversations with right that they needed it
out there, But no sane person can go back and
logically say, after a playoff win season where you're getting
you win a playoff game for the first time since
twenty eleven, that you can tear down and just I
(13:08):
find just let Daniel Jones walk len him it for agency,
It's fine, don't worry about it. Taquan Eyes, a running back,
let him go who cares. That's not something you can do, Like,
no one would have accepted that at that point, So
you're trying to split the baby a little bit. And
I think that was the start of it. And even
without that year, and I go back to my point
on the cap, the team they took over was a
(13:30):
bad football team, but it had some good young players
on it, and it was gonna be tough navigating, well,
this is a tear down, but at the same time,
we want to keep players ABC and deep is then
that takes up cap space, right, and that limits the
tear an one opportunities. So I do think it was
kind of an in between situation in a lot of ways,
with the way the roster was set up, with the cap,
(13:50):
with where the team was performance wise, and just trying
and then throwing that first year of success and trying
to balance all that in terms of how you build,
who you retain, who you don't. How many step backs
do you take to take a step forward? I think,
and I asked that question to Joe when he first
got here, and I think that was always going to
be a very tough thing to navigate, even with older
(14:10):
veterans like Leonard Williams and a Dori Jackson, right, Leonard
Williams was still a good player, but with the way
the team was, it didn't make sense to keep them.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
But you get worse by letting him go.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
So there are all these, you know, drawbacks and advantages
you could take by all of these decisions, and it
was always going to be a tough puzzle to put together,
especially after that first successful season.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Yeah, you know, And I remember being in the press
box in Philadelphia that year, that in twenty twenty two,
and I you know, you'd see, you know, we see
it a little less now because you know, the front
office personnel, you know, they're trying to not be in
a situation where they're walking through with the media in
there and with the reporters, and you know, nobody's looking
to take victory laps or hold press conferences in the
(14:53):
back of the press room every day, you know. But
the reality is that I remember it was right around
the trade deadline and asking Joe Shane. You know, everybody thought,
remember John, everybody thought the Giants should go out and
get a wide receiver that year. Come on, you gotta
make a move, make a move. You're in position, and
this was twenty twenty two when we weren't sure where
(15:15):
the way it was gonna work out, but they had
to win in London and they came back and beat
the Ravens and they were in a little bit of
a slide right around that time, and Joe Shane held
firm said I'm not giving away draft assets. The big
name on the board was Jerry Judy. I played for
Brian Dable and Alabama. You know, we gotta go get
(15:35):
him to throw a second round pick to Denver and
get Jerry Judy here and you know, make a move.
And then there was such I wouldn't say an uproar
because that's probably too strong, but the idea of what
is Joe Shane doing? Why aren't they This team is
in position to compete for a playoff spot. Why aren't
they making moves? And their big move was claiming Isaiah
(15:57):
Hodgens from the Bills the day after to the trade deadline,
and everybody was like, oh, they did nothing. What is
Shane doing? And the reality is is that, you know,
two plus years later, Joe Shane is answering questions about
is he going to make moves to keep his job
next year? And if I'm John mare and Steve Tish.
(16:18):
I look at that first year and I say, you
know what, I had a young general manager who probably
was feeling the pressure a little bit from his coaching staff. Look,
we're here, you know, we can we make a couple moves.
We can compete with Dallas, we can compete with the Eagles.
We could win a playoff game or two. Let get
us some pieces here. Let's let's see what we can do.
(16:39):
And Shane didn't do that. He actually held back. I
fast forward to this off season. Had Joe Shane wanted
to move off of his plan, you know, we saw
John Marra wanted take one Barkley here. Joe Shane knew
what he had to do to keep Sakeuon Barkley. It
may have gone against what he believed the Giants should
(17:01):
do to rebuild, but he knew if he wanted, if
he thought his job was in jeopardy, all he had
to do was go to Saquon Barklay's agent, Ed Barry.
We heard the conversations on hard knocks. All he had
to do was say, hey, we'll give you fourteen a year,
fourteen a year sequans here, let's be done and then
John Merraw walks away a happy man, and Joe Shane
(17:22):
looks at it and goes, you know what, It's not
really what I wanted to do, but I made the
owner happy, so let's move forward.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
And also, by the way, the team's gonna be better
in the short term, so that would have been the
easy decision to make.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
And that's the other thing too, is that when they
made these decisions in the off season. You know, I've
said this to somebody, it's kind of I've developed it
as my line, like when you're in a mess, it's
gonna get a little messy to clean it up. And
the reality is that that's where they're at. This was
going to be a mess whether it was year one,
(17:54):
year two, or year three. Now you've got to clear
it up. And it's been ye it's been hard. With
the Daniel Jones thing and how that played out in
the regular season and Saquon and Xavier McKinney making the
All Pro team and being Pro Bowls. You're going to
take hits the way you expected to. But if you
have a conviction, you need to stick with that, and
(18:17):
I don't think they stuck with that after year one,
and I think they're doing that now, and that goes
back to again, they're hoping that they've set themselves up
now to be able to get a quarterback in here,
maybe get two quarterbacks in here, and follow through and say,
you know what, everybody talking about playoffs next year and wins.
(18:40):
I truly believe that what John Marras said the other
day was true. Mood. Tell me about what the mood
is with this franchise after this year, and then I'll
tell you if everybody's coming back or for making changes.
Because if the mood is that they're moving in the
right direction, they have a quarterback, they feel like these
young are starting together, they have another very good draft,
(19:03):
which is what they had last year. Then you know what,
if you win six or seven games and you don't
make the playoffs, but you feel like you're heading in
the right direction. I don't know necessarily if John Maher's
making changes, then if Steve Tish is saying, you know what, John,
we have to make changes. But that's where you're at.
So I, like I said, it's a mess right now.
It's going to be messy to clean it up. But
(19:24):
after that happens, you hope that you're building towards successful
seasons down the road.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Yeah, look or I agree, And this will be my
last comments used question about what happened before, and then
we'll kind of look ahead here a little bit. And
I apologize with my long retort in between your last
two as toes. I think it's complicated, right, and I
think what I kind of started thinking about, do you?
And I brought this up on a big blue kickoff
earlier in the week. Let's say the Giants decided, look,
(19:51):
we were going to retain Saquon, We're going to retain
Zavid McKinney, we were gonna even let's say they figure
out a way to retain Evan Ingram. You go back
that ball, right, and all those guys get kept, and
you're here, and you're sitting here. Not one of us
would argue that Giants would better today. They would have
won more game, That would be a better football team.
Would they be, truly though, aren't be any closer to
(20:12):
winning its Super Bowl?
Speaker 3 (20:14):
No? No, they wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
No, you wouldn't be.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
And on top of that, you wouldn't have your forty
million in cap space, you wouldn't have your one hundred
million in cap space. Next year, you wouldn't be picking
as high in the draft because your record would be better, right,
And I think the record would be better. But I think,
and this goes to your point in terms of Joe
Shane having a way he wants to go about things,
the path to becoming a super Bowl team might even
(20:41):
be even cloudier because while you would have better players,
you still wouldn't have the flexibility and the ability to
get the key pieces that you need to take those
next step down the road. And again, I think this
is the more difficult path to go down. It requires
more discipline. And that's might give me my next question
for you, But I don't think to say, well, look
(21:02):
at all these good players they like, Oh you know,
why would you do that?
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Well?
Speaker 2 (21:07):
To have a little foresight, sometimes you have to make
tough decisions now that hurt you now to set you
up for more success later. And I think that's kind
of what the thought process is here.
Speaker 3 (21:17):
I agree. And you know what, it is a leap
of faith. It is a searching for benefit of the
doubt when the organization hasn't earned the benefit of the doubt,
sure from it's consumers, from the media, from anyone who's
trying to analyze where this team is.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Oh, by the way, or I don't expect fans to
give them that either. I don't think John Maher expect
the fans to give them that either, to be honest
with you, because in the end, they're the ones buying
the tickets and watching bad football.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
So I get where they're coming from.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
Yeah, and they're spending their hard earned money. I say,
you know what, if you have season tickets, if you
have PSLs, the only thing I could say about the
one guarantee is if the Giants are bad again next year,
guess what, You've got a lot of great teams coming
into MetLife Stadium to play them, So you can sell
your tickets on the secondary market and maybe make up
(22:01):
some of the cash that you're losing and spending out
on those fans. But look, the reality is that John,
all of this is all with the pretense of we
don't know if Joe Shane is right. I don't know
if they're correct as to how to build a football team.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
That oh, there are no guarantee of results here, no
matter what path you know.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
Not at all. I like the fact that they have
a plan. It doesn't necessarily mean the plan is right,
but as opposed to the previous regimes who didn't have
a plan who you know, we all saw how that
thing fell apart in twenty twenty one before Shane and
Dabel got here. I mean, there's a reason why so
(22:40):
much was made about them having a shared vision and
being in lockstep, and this past Monday being the first
time that they didn't have a joint press conference. And
I don't believe that was a statement about Shannon Dabel
and their relationship. I just think Monday was a crazy
day for them and they realize, you know what, but
we got a lot of work to do, and we're
(23:02):
not going to spend time and sit up here in
a joint press conference, you know, trying to sell you
a vision that no one is seeing right now. And
I think that's kind of where they're at right now,
and like you said, moving forward now to what's next.
I always love the analogy and the cliche, the idea
of you've got the rear view mirror and you've got
(23:23):
the wind shield. Why is the windshield always bigger? The
windshield's always bigger because you're supposed to see the bigger
picture in front of you and stop worrying about the
smaller mirror, the rearview mirror that's behind you. But you
don't walk into your car, shut the door and rip
the rear view mirror off. There's a reason why there's
a rearview mirror, and I think they need to have
(23:46):
that perspective moving forward. It's not a blame game. It's
just reality of where they were, and they distorted reality
because of what they were able to do in twenty
twenty two. And now you know what happened in twenty
twenty three. And the last thing I'll say is everybody says, well,
why didn't they just get rid of Daniel Jones and
(24:07):
pick a quarterback? They were now picking twenty sixth. Because
of the season they had, they were probably expecting to
have a top five pick with Bryce Young, CJ. Stroud
and Anthony Richardson who came on at the end and
became the top three picks in that draft. You were
not getting anywhere near that. And if Joe Shane decided,
(24:29):
you know what, we're getting rid of Daniel Jones on
a playoff year. We're going to trade up from twenty
six to get into the top five to get one
of those quarterbacks. If you're walking into John Mara's office
and trying to sell him on that, if you're trying
to sell this fan base on that at the time,
there's no way that's floating. I mean, and it's possible
(24:50):
that if Joe Shane held true to his beliefs, he
would have been out of a job. I mean, that's
the reality here, is that we see what goes on
around the end, and what's happening in New England, and
what happened in Las Vegas, and what's continuing to happen
in Jacksonville year after year after year. Somewhere along the line,
you have to get off the carousel. It doesn't mean
(25:12):
that you leave the building and you say I'm never
getting on a carousel again, but you may look at
it and say, you know what, we've got to do,
what we've got to do to see if we can
capture something here, and if you can't do it, there's
always next year. Fans don't want to hear that, the
media doesn't want to hear that, but it's worth the
risk in their eyes to say, you know what we
(25:32):
believe in the process here, we are going to see
it through. Uh And it's not an unlimit It's not
a limitless process. The reality is that next year they're
going to reassess. But I think that's why all of
this played into this decision that came on Monday.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Huddle up, get in here. If you're lined up here,
you got to go over the middle with at the
score great.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
How do we make that happen?
Speaker 1 (25:56):
I don't know, But does it makes sense of your money?
Speaker 3 (26:00):
With Citizens Official Bank of Eli.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Manning Johnson, the podcast is brought to you by Citizens,
the official bank of the Giants. From game day celebrations
to your everyday financial needs, Big Blue fans can get
the most out of every moment with Citizens. Learn more
at Citizens bank dot com slash Giants. And that goes
back to your Joe Shane point right. I think he's
shown a lot of discipline in the way he's operated
over the past couple of years. I think I remember
in one of the Hard Knocks episodes, you referred to
(26:25):
himself as stubborn, and I think you know, in terms
of how he wants to negotiate, what his beliefs are
in terms of position value, what he wants to pay
certain players, right, And I think we even saw that
in the draft last year, where look the easy solution
there are were just to pick a quarterback at Sex right,
like you know, Daniel, he goes off acl that's the
easy thing I picked.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Just pick the best guy.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
But he's like, no, I think Malik Neighbors is a
much better player. And as I'm much higher grade than
these other quarterbacks, I'm not gonna do anything. I'm gonna
do the tough thing. And now I think moving forward,
And I wasn't sure if you asked this question to
Joe Shane or somebody else else, but he asked about
trying to again push the accelerator and win this year now,
(27:06):
because obviously the results of the last year have him
been good. And obviously John marrav pointed out that the
patience is wearing thin for the results, and he said, look, guys, look,
I was brought here to do what's in the best
long term interest of the Giants, and I think if
he shows that same type of discipline moving forward, you're
not going to run into a situation where you're you know,
(27:27):
backloading contracts, your training future picks to move up for
a player that maybe you don't believe is the best
player in the draft. Because he's a quarterback, and I
think that discipline is really going to get put to
the test. And I think based on what we've seen,
I think you have to have some confidence that Joe
Shane will stick to his principles in this situation.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
And there's not going to be reaches.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
There's not going to be reckless salary cat management, because
that's just something that I don't think he's shown that
he's willing to do in his first three years here.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
Yeah, And I think whatever carries through here is where
Joe Shane, you know, he's building. This was his clean
you know, he had to come in and show that
he can be a general manager in this league. And
the reality is that there have been ups and downs.
I mean, look, hard knocks off season may never exist
again because the Giants open themselves up to criticism that
(28:15):
organizations will not do in the NFL. And I will
make the argument that what we saw the Giants go
through in their off season, that's probably the tip of
the iceberg compared to what teams go through. How the
sausage is made in the NFL. And to see how
that was received around the league and portrayed and constantly
(28:39):
going back to what was on camera. I mean, there
is no arguing the idea of this happened. These things happened.
Now were they taken out of context? Perhaps that we
don't see all of the footage and all of the video.
But the reality is is that Joe Shane wants to
work in this league for a very long time. I
have no reason to think others. So if he compromises
(29:03):
where he wants things to be just for the sake
of trying to squeeze out a few more wins this year,
and then those wins don't come, well, guess what then
Joe Shane's gonna be out of a job. And who
knows if he gets another GM job anywhere in the league,
because now he's been put out front and center and
we all see how he operates. And you know, the
(29:26):
funny thing is you mentioned John the negotiations. Think about that,
Shane was a first year general manager coming off of
a playoff year, and he had to negotiate contracts with
the four best players on the roster, and this was
his first negotiating period for the current team that he's
(29:46):
gonna have as a general manager. It was Sakwa Barkley,
Daniel Jones, Andrew Thomas, and oh, by the way, Dexter Lawrence.
So he signed Andrew Thomas and Dexter Lawrence to extensions
that continue to look like great deals because yes, I
know Andrew's injury and dex are under the year injury injured,
(30:07):
but those contracts are going to continue to look good.
So all the focus was on those contracts, the Saquon
Barkley and Daniel Jones. The reality is is nobody's bringing
up the contracts for Andrew Thomas and Dan and Dexter Lawrence,
which are good contracts, and obviously they have to stay
healthy and they have to win. So that's the way
(30:28):
it is. But you know, look, I think we keep
saying Joe Shane, Jo'shane. I do believe that they've built
around him. I think Joe's done a good job. And
that is the stark difference between this general manager and
Dave Gettleman. Is that a lot of times it was
Dave Gettleman and the field, But now I do believe
(30:50):
it is Joe Shane and Brandon Brown and Chris Rosetti
and Dennis Hickey and Tim McDonald and all of their scouts.
They feel like they're they feel like they have a
process in place, and I think that had gone by
the wayside for the two previous general managers that were here.
So when John Marras says, I'm here every day, I
(31:13):
see the structure we have, that's what he's talking about.
He's not talking about hits and missus in the draft.
He's not talking.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
About, by the way, are even the best general manager
has hits or missus in the draft?
Speaker 1 (31:25):
It happens to ever.
Speaker 3 (31:26):
Look at Less Snead and in the Rams, and now,
you know, Less Snead, obviously you win a Super Bowl,
it was f them picks. Then now the Rams are
built because they've made incredible picks with the two defensive
guys with Verse, you know, and all they they've done.
But Snead's first couple of years were really bad. I mean,
it was brutal what they had to do. And then
(31:48):
they went off and they pulled off the big trade
with Matthew Matthew Stafford. And you know, for years it
was are they ever gonna win anything with Aaron Donald.
So it's just an interesting scenario that I think front office, John,
when has this timeline been so accelerated to the point
where guys are getting fired and they're restarting things one
(32:13):
or two years into the length of the rookie contracts
that you inherited or that you brought in. It's really like,
I don't know where it started, but it's really incredible
to think that the lack of patience. And again, I
get it sometimes you know guys can't do the job.
You watch it, you see it. But it's to think
(32:34):
that a front office can have two drafts or three
drafts and their first draft class is on year four
of their rookie contracts and you're already saying that's it, busts,
they can't do it, They're out. We got to bring
new people in. I don't know how that's sustainable over
the course of a certain number of years. And you know,
(32:56):
maybe it is, but I personally don't see how it
can be sustained.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
Now, I'm with you. And look, that's not to say
that mistakes haven't been made. That haven't been missteps. Joe
Shane admitted that himself and his multiple press conferences. We're
not trying to make that case, but we're just trying
to put everything into context. All right, let let's talk
about next year. Let's kind of work chronologically. Do you
would you expect or what are your thoughts to put
that potential changes on the coaching staff, and I will
include even Brian Dable potentially calling plays next year or not.
(33:23):
I'm assuming we're not going to get that answer till August,
because you know we didn't get that the last two
years either. But your thoughts on what if anything might
happen with this coaching staff over the next couple of weeks.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
You know, look, everybody took what John Marras said about
the defense and tired of watching teams go up and
down the field on the Giants this year as a
shot at Shane Bowen as defensive coordinator. I mean, look,
you brought in Shane Bowen. We knew it was going
to be a stark contrast and what you had in
Wake Martindale. You know, you had the most aggressive defense
that you could possibly have in the NFL. And then
(33:54):
you you know, even if Bowen was aggressive, it was
nowhere near what you were aggressive the year before. I think,
you know, I don't know necessarily if they're looking to say, well,
Shane Bowen is going to be fired and we need
to bring in a whole new defense, because I don't
know necessarily if that's a great thing for this coaching
staff and for the players that are here. But you know,
Mike Grabel is a hot coaching candidate by the time
(34:16):
this ahirs. Who knows Mike Grabel might be the coach
in New England or somewhere else. You know, Shane Bone
is his guy. So it wouldn't surprise me in the
least if Mike Grabel made a call to the Giants
and said, hey, do we have permission to interview Shane
Bowen for our DC. And in that situation, maybe that's
when you say, you know what, maybe it's best for
Shane to go. Maybe it's best for us to kind
(34:37):
of restructure and see how this is. But there's no
solution right now that's out there that I think you
can say, Well, it has to be this defensive coordinator
that they bring in and it'll change everything. I think
they have to, you know, admit and acknowledge the fact
that as much as Joe Shane said they drafted for
the player and not necessarily for the system, there are
(34:59):
players on this d defense specifically that were drafted for
the Wink Martindale system. That maybe had a hard time
adjusting to the Shane Bones system. Tay Banks is one
of those guys that you know, you wanted him to
be aggressive and a press man guy, and now this
year he didn't play well. I'm not saying that's the
excuse as to why he didn't have a great year,
but I think that you have to embrace that a
(35:21):
little bit more and realize and acknowledge, you know what,
maybe we leaned a little bit too much on Wink
Martindale when he was here in drafting the players, and
you know that is an issue for the coaching staff.
As far as Dables play calling. You know, look, I
think he probably can put together a tape of you know,
thirty I'll limit it to thirty plays that should have
(35:43):
been made and we're not made in key games this year.
And you know, we all go back to the flea
flicker in Germany, but that was up and down every
week you had three or four plays. Now you can
make the argument that you don't have the personnel to
make those plays. So why is the play caller in
this case, Brian d Ables still calling those plays? You know,
(36:04):
that's something to examine. What happens with Mike Kafka. Is
Mike Kafka gone. We know he's he's interviewing for head
coaching jobs. Will he move for a lateral move? Will
he stay here? What happens then? Does Sha Tierney take
over as offensive coordinator? Did they bring someone everyone's talking about,
Davis Webb. I don't know if that's a move to
(36:24):
make here, But the bottom line is, I think this
coaching staff needs to get together and needs to kind
of reinvent a little bit of the way they do
things and put more emphasis on week to week changes
rather than just saying, you know, what's gonna come together.
I think defensively they were stuck on that a little bit. So,
(36:46):
you know, I don't know. I think it's a wait
and see right now. I think you you let let
the dust settle over the next week or so and
see which guys want to go elsewhere. You know there
will be we saw last year. You know, there were
coaches who supposedly reportedly wanted to get out of here
because of Brian Dable and they didn't like the way
things were. But I know from talking to some coaches
(37:07):
they wanted better opportunities. You know, there was a coach
you know that wanted to leave, you know, the tight
Ends coach. You know, he ended up going to the
Chargers because he grew up in Jim Harborough's system, or
at least John Harbaugh and wanted to you know, be
with Greg Roman again. You know that that kind of thing.
You know. I think we're still going to see how
(37:29):
this happens. I don't think it's good for Brian Able
to completely overhaul yet again. But you got to bring
the best coaches in here. And if you can get
better coaches and you can get a better plan and
help your players, then you need to do it, and
you need to do it. You need to do it
fast because you can't just boot another season after this.
(37:49):
And I think that they have to be honest with
where they're at right now.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
All right, how do you think they approached a quarterback situation?
Speaker 3 (37:55):
Your art?
Speaker 2 (37:55):
I'm of the throw as many darted the board as possible,
veteran rookie. Yes, yes, yes to all everything. How do
you think they're going to approach it?
Speaker 3 (38:04):
Yeah? I think that'll be it. I mean, and look,
Tommy DeVito is the only player that has a potential
of being back. You know, he's an exclusive rights free agent.
You know, people don't hear that often, but the reality
is they're going to pick up the exclusive rights free
agent at minimum contract. If they don't or if Tommy
doesn't sign the exclusive rights free agent, he can't play
(38:25):
in the NFL this year. So the reality is when
Joe Shane says Tommy's the only one under contract, he's
going to be under contract after that. You know, look,
we're gonna see how free agency plays out. I think
they signed someone. I don't think they put big money
into it. Maybe there's a trade to be had if
a guy can come in, like a Russell Wilson situation
last year, where you know, he was pennies to sign.
(38:50):
You know, I remember asking Joe Shane, why did you
guys talk to Russell Wilson? He said, well, why wouldn't
you You can get up that potential, backup as a
Super Bowl champ at all, why wouldn't you do that?
So maybe they'll explore that opportunity. I still think that
they need to draft somebody that is going to bring
future promise to this organization. Now that may not mean
(39:13):
next year he's starting right off the bat, but I think,
like you said.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
Does that mean third overall necessarily to you or a
trade up or could that be a guy at the
top of the second round back into the first of
you trade up?
Speaker 3 (39:24):
Yeah, I mean I think I think either or I
think you know, the reality is that if if I
love Shdor Sanders or cam Ward and I have a
chance to get one of those two or you know,
I end up writing today. I know this is posting
on Friday.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
But not I think we moved up. I think it's
gould be Thursday afternoon now, so you should be okay.
Speaker 3 (39:41):
So so we're posting, and you know, the Orange Bowl
tonight with Drew Aller going against Notre Dame. You know,
talking to some of the you know, the analysts that
you and I both respect, you know who do great jobs.
You know, Dame Brugler, Jordan Reid from ESPN. You know,
they talked to me about Aler a month ago. Now,
Aller ended up saying he's coming back to Penn State.
But you know, if he has a big game against
(40:01):
Notre Dame and ends up winning a national championship for
Penn State in a week and a half, you know,
maybe he reconsiders. If he makes the national championship, he
has until the twenty fourth, which is four days after
the National championship. Now, I'm not saying that Alo would
be the Giants guy, but another quarterback to consider might
change the way the top three picks play out. You
(40:23):
know I mentioned throwing darts. Everyone's talking about Jackson Dart
at ole Miss. You know they want to say, is
he a guy Jalen Milroe? You know? Look, all I
know is that the biggest takeaway from Hard Knocks to
me should have been watching Brian Dable with those quarterbacks,
knowing that when Joe Shane came back to them and said,
(40:44):
would you trade up for Jaden Daniels and Dable said
absolutely I would, and we know they like Drake May
as well. You have to take that confidence and the
fact that in process, again the guys that they liked,
and they knew they like them, they couldn't get them,
but look how they're performing. You have to take that
(41:05):
and say, you know what, I like Dables process to
pick these quarterbacks, and I will lean on him. And
if he says I wouldn't draft these guys in that spot,
don't draft them, or yeah, give me a shot, I
can turn that guy into a starter. That we meet here.
I'm leaning on it. That's why Dable's here. If you
(41:26):
cannot rely on your head coach in that situation, then
you should have just moved on on Monday. You need
to trust that these guys are gonna do the right
thing for the quarterback, for this for this organization. So
I think you're gonna have a free agent. I think
you'll have a rookie, and then you move on and
you see, Let's see how things play out in you know,
(41:48):
twenty twenty five. Do you have a Kurt Warner Eli
Manning scenario in twenty four when you had them move
to that. I'm not sure. I don't know if that's
the way it's gonna be. But I've seen plenty of examples.
Look in Minnesota this year, Look what happened at Atlanta,
you know, And they're positives and negatives from both of
those scenarios as how it played out. But I think
(42:11):
the Giants will be in a situation where they're gonna
have to again make some hard decisions and you know,
and then live with the consequences.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
If you want to know how to manage two minutes
of crunch time football, I'm your man. But if you're
wondering about a long term financial plan, you should talk
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Speaker 2 (42:33):
Johnsonville podcast brought to you by Citizens Official Bank of
the Giants. Citizens will donate seven hundred and fifty dollars
of the Giants Foundation for each scoring drive during the
twenty twenty four season. Learn more at Citizens bank dot
com slash Giants two. More on free agency are before
we let you go. I appreciate all the time. This
has been fun and hopefully we've we provided some context
everything that's going on here for the fans out there.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
The Giants own free agents. Let's go there. First.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
We got a couple guys on both sides of the
ball that were starters, Greg Van Roten, Jason in Pinnock,
two of the major guys Darius Slayton another that gets
significant playing time that are free agents. Your thoughts on
what the Giants approach of those three guys might be.
Speaker 3 (43:09):
You know, I don't know necessarily if Greg Van Roten
all of a sudden is going to be looking for
a monster deal. You know, back in the summer when
he signed here, he talked about how important it was
for him and his wife or the young family to
be close to Long Island where he grew up, where
she was from, the idea that you know, they like
their family network here. So I would have no problem
(43:30):
bringing Greg Van Broughton back on a fair contract. I'm
not breaking the bank for Greg Van Roten to come
back here, and I don't think he would expect to
do that. But he gave you flexibility up front. I
would would not count on him as being your lock,
you know, starter at right guard or even at center,
but he gives you that flexibility. As far as Darius
(43:50):
Slayton goes, you know, look, I think there's tremendous value
there in terms of where he has been on that contract.
I think think you know they made the right call
by playing him this year. He was a better wide
receiver than Jalen Hyatt was. Now, granted you win three games,
kind of wish you play I kind of wish they
played Highatt more to see if he could come out
(44:14):
of that shell, if you could pull something out of Hyatt,
because now you go into a situation where I don't
know if they're going to sign Darius Slayton. I would
sit down, I talk to him, see what he wants
to do. I get the sense that he wants to
kind of explore other options and see where he's at
and then which is what he did a couple of
years ago and ended up coming back to the Giants anyway,
when everybody insisted that when Joe Shane forced him to
(44:37):
take a pay cut, there's no way he's coming back
to the Giants, and ended up he ended up coming back.
And that was really the deal that cost them Julian
Love because Julian Love and Darius Slayton had the same
offer on the table, and when Darius took it, when
Julian Love called back and said to Joe Shane, hey,
I got this deal on the table. You know what,
(44:59):
you guys man, they had already given it to slay
so they couldn't bring Julian Love back. Maybe had they
done that differently, maybe we'd be talking about safety a
little differently for them. But the other one would be
Jason Pinnock. It's very interesting to see the value of Pinnock.
If I'm the Giants, I'm maybe looking for another another
(45:22):
option there to pair with Tyler Nuben and you still
have Dane Belton on the roster. You know, I like Pinnock.
I like him as a player. I think they've got
a lot out of him since they claimed him from
the Jets. But Pinnock may want a little bit bigger
deal than what I think the Giants would would offer him. Uh.
(45:42):
So I'd look there and maybe maybe I can, you know,
look at my structure of my defense, what it looks like,
and can I find another player for the same economical
price that maybe fits better with Tyler Nuben and what
I want to do defensively at safety. So right now,
I'd say Grin greg Gren will be back. I'd be
(46:05):
surprised if Slayton is back.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (46:08):
And you know Pinnock, I'm not really sure what his
market will be. So that's kind of where where i'd stand.
With those three guys.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
I should throw Aziz Ojewire into the next He would
be the fourth guy. I think that I think is
probably maybe the most interesting conversation of the four because
when he plays, he's productive.
Speaker 3 (46:23):
Yeah, no doubt. I mean, if you can get disease
on a one year deal to come back and be
that third guy, with Burns and Thibodeau, I think, you
know that would intrigue me to have him back. You know,
you never have enough pass rushers. We all know that
in this organization. But if his ease gets a big
money deal, I don't know necessarily if I'd race to
go do that. I'd almost rather draft somebody, bring him in,
(46:47):
maybe develop behind Thibodeau and Burns, because you know, Thibodeau,
You've have the fifty year option question this spring that
you're gonna have to answer and see where that ends up.
The other one that I think is important on a
guy who is a free agent, and I don't know
if you know him going down this road, but Amir
Smith Marsette came in, and I think they found a
(47:09):
specialist here. I mean, probably the best specialist they've had
since Dwayne Harris. Reminds me a little bit of a
Dominic kicks in in terms of, you know, believes that
he can be a factor as like that fourth wide receiver.
So I'd like to see ice ism come back here
because I think he brought some juice as a returner
and I'm not even talking about the you know, the
(47:31):
kickoff return for one hundred yards. I think he kind
of represents something. I don't think he's gonna break the bank,
but I'd want to bring a guy like that back.
He seemed to really mesh personality wise. He brought some
juice into the locker room. And again everybody looks at
it and says, you won three games, what's the difference.
But I think I think he's a player that they found,
(47:51):
you know, through kind of an alternative route to pick
him up at the way they did mid season. So
he's another guy that I would look to bring back
and really, you know, want to get that done before
free agency and said, we want to give you a
shot at wide receiver, but we love you as a
as a specialist. You know, come come back here, give
(48:13):
you a two to three year deal. Maybe we give
you some security your home in New Jersey. So he's
another guy that I would mention as far as a
guy who is free, but you know, maybe not so
much free if you make that move.
Speaker 2 (48:26):
All right, final question art in terms of the rest
of the free agent pie, right, the money you have
to spend, Joe Shane said, all have over forty million
dollars to spend, and to me, I think when we've
seen this team go out there and spend, you know,
moderate contracts on players.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
I think they've worked out for the most part.
Speaker 2 (48:43):
I think that's what you saw the Bills do a
lot when Joe Shane was there with Brandon Bean right,
Jermaine a luminor good value contract John Runyon Junior. I
think you got a pretty happy with the value of
that contract. Go back two years. The Sean Robinson contract,
I think ended up being a pretty good value right
with with with what they spent on him GVR. For
the cost of that contract, you get a guy that
was a solid starter for you for like sixteen games
that played multiple spots.
Speaker 1 (49:05):
That's a win.
Speaker 2 (49:06):
And I think given where this team is, they have
some star power, right the Dexters, the Brian Burns', the
Andrew Thomas is the leak neighbors. I think the way
they'll go through this is to try to even out
this roster a little bit, fill a lot of holes
with some good solid veterans that you can get dependable
play from, to fill some of these gaps, to just
(49:27):
clean up some of the problems that you've had on
this roster over the past couple of years. And I
think that's probably gonna be the best use of your money,
unlike last year when such a large chunk went to
Brian Burns, which, by the way, I think Burns has
been great. I think that ended up working out okay
as well. But I don't feel like we're gonna get
that big splash this offseason. I think it's the pie
is gonna get spread out a little bit deeper to
(49:49):
multiple guys.
Speaker 3 (49:51):
Yeah, I think that's kind of their approach. I think,
you know, Shane mentioned back in year one the idea
of don't shop hungry, you know, And I think the
job did that back in twenty sixteen. And I think
if you get Tom Kofflin in the room, he's probably
still angry that they splurged on the defense a year
before when we knew the defense was really the reason
(50:13):
that that twenty fifteen just kind of went in the tank.
But yeah, I mean, I think the one price point,
obviously we mentioned quarterback. I think they'll look for a quarterback.
I don't think it'll be a high price quarterback in
free agency. But the other one, there's an interior offensive
lineman in Kansas City that a lot of Giants fans
(50:34):
wanted a couple of years ago in the draft and
he slipped and slipped and slipped and slipped because he
had you know, blood clots and his lungs and you
know who I'm talking about, the reality is that now
he's a free agent, I believe this year. So he's
somebody that I might make a play for. If I'm
going to give some good money. That's where I'm giving
(50:54):
the money.
Speaker 1 (50:55):
That's gonna be a lot of money, and it is.
Speaker 3 (50:58):
But I'm giving it on off defensive line or I'm
doing defensive line anywhere else, and maybe if there's a
corner on the market. I did not look on the
market for what the corners were this year yet. But
other than that, I like your you know, your idea.
The idea is that, look, I'm not looking to just
(51:19):
you know, but get fifteen free agents at minimal contracts.
You know, the illumin Or contract was a solid contract.
Runyon was a solid contract. But now you have those
guys coming back. Maybe I'm looking at is there a
center out there? I mean, what are their feelings on
John Michael Schmid's going into year three? Is he definitely
the starter? What are they doing you know at right guard?
(51:43):
I think that's also a spot, you know, and you
got to get some players next to Dexter Lawrence. You know,
Nacho played pretty well this year or was it least solid?
Wasn't an impact player, but he's there. You know, he's
a solid guy to have in a rotation. But you know,
Elijah Chapman, you love what you got out of an
undrafted rookie, but let's be honest, they can really use
(52:06):
an impact player next to Des. I think Ashawn Robinson
was that down the stretch of the previous year. I
think you need to find that player to pair with
Dexter moving forward and say, you know what, you are
not going to double decks with the guys we have
at edge and then we have decks on inside. If
you're going to run away from decks and you know,
(52:27):
I think it was Burns or somebody said about using
decks as a crutch. It's a positive crutch and it's
a negative crutch. When you lose them, it's a crutch,
but also when you have them there, it's a little
bit of a crutch. Don't just say that Dexter is
going to dominate everything, because it's not fair to him.
You want to take advantage of him and use him
(52:48):
to be able to break everything off defensively in a
positive way, not a negative way. So that's kind of
where I'm looking at for free agency. I think you've
got a lot of young players here that it's time
to kind of as Tom Coffin would say, you know,
it's it's move on, it's time to step up here.
So a lot of the guys who got flowers this year,
(53:10):
as far as being promising rookies in year two, these
six or seven guys have to be the guys that
are forming your core here, and if you're looking to
sign to replace them, then that's also a problem and
maybe a misread as to where you were after this year.
Speaker 2 (53:26):
Yeah, and continue to improving from the twenty twenty three
and twenty two and two drift classes as well.
Speaker 1 (53:30):
That's going to be the foundation of the team absolutely.
Speaker 2 (53:32):
All right, this was fun man, good stuff. I appreciate
the time. So after taking a little bit long, let's
keep up. I'm sure we'll be hanging out the combine together.
That'll be fun and we'll talk soon.
Speaker 1 (53:41):
All right. Sounds great, John Art Stapleton again, check them out.
Speaker 2 (53:46):
Thanks for joining us on the gihns little podcast, brought
to you by Citizens Official Bank of the Giants.
Speaker 1 (53:49):
We'll see you next time. Everybody
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