April 21, 2025 • 39 mins
On this episode of the Giants Huddle podcast, John Schmeelk sits down with Thomas Dimitroff, former NFL General Manager and CEO of Sumer Sports, to discuss the Giants options at pick #3, some different data-driven draft strategies, and his his positional evaluations.
:00 - Quarterback evaluation
13:00 - Draft strategies
15:37 - Pass rushers
18:50 - Defensive tackles
20:40 - Running backs
23:14 - Tight ends
26:00 - Wide receivers
31:48 - Offensive line
35:39 - Using data in the draft
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's time to get inside the Giants. Hutt's Giant The
Giants Mouble give me some job. Part of the Giants
podcast network. Let's roll.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Welcome to another of the Giants Little podcast, brought to
you by Citizens, the official bank of the Giants. I
am John Schmelk, coming to you from the Hackensack Marine
Health podcast studio, Keep getting Better. Today's guest is former
NFL general manager now the CEO of Sumer Sports, Thomas,
to meet your off. And now we welcome in former
NFL general manager and the CEO of Sumer Sports, Thomas,
(00:31):
to meet your off Thomas.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
How are you?
Speaker 3 (00:34):
I am always good. Thanks for reaching out. It's an
energetic time, right You guys in New York have a
lot to do. I'm sure.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Yes, we are at the center of the draft.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
A lot of people are calling the Giants kind of
the fulcrum of the draft process, so let's start there.
And I think, as someone that's done this before and
built the draft board, I'm curious how you would approach this, Thomas.
When you're in a situation like the Giants where I
think they've addressed their short term quarterback need, like if
they don't walk away with a quarterback. They have two
guys that they feel comfortable playing, but you always want
(01:04):
to have that guy that can be your future long
term starter on the roster. But it's not a great
quarterback class. So you're picking third. Maybe not the best
year to be picking third if you need a quarterback.
So how would you approach the quarterback situation if you
were the Giants?
Speaker 3 (01:19):
You're right, I mean it's not a great draft, not
saying that these guys aren't talented and don't have upside, right,
you know, talking about Kim Moore and talking about Shidarah
Sanders and then who is going to be the ultimate
third right next three, four and five in the draft.
But it is complicated, and when you're Joe Shane in
company coming off of the year that you had, there's
(01:40):
a lot of pressure, of course from a city that
expects big things. So that aside, I mean whether we
say as general managers, that never affects us. I don't
think about the fan base and I don't think about
the media. The reality is it's always on your mind.
You are if you are a proud individual like Joe is.
He wants to do right, He wants his legacy to
(02:00):
be strong hair. So to answer your question, I think
what you need to do is you really need to
drill down which they have been on a guy like
ster Sanders and really decide on is this the person
that we need to take us into the future. We
know that that didn't happen in the past. Pick right,
and an organization that is looking for that quarterback. There
(02:21):
is a it is so important to come in this
year with a guy that's going to, in my mind
and help impact out the gate. We did it with
Matt Ryan in Atlanta. Right. Never did I think, well,
we're going to put him on the bench for two
or three years. Some teams have the ability to do that.
A lot of teams don't. And this is a here
and now. We talked about it, I think last year
(02:41):
or the year before. It is here and now in
the NFL. And if you don't jump on it, and
you don't take the chance on it, of course you're
going to be wallowing in mediocrity, which is not what
the New York Giants need and the fan base need.
I think you go in here as the Giants personally,
and I would say, you know this whole idea about
Shader Sanders and his the father and the family. That
(03:05):
can be a positive. I know a lot of people
are playing like it's complicated, but to have someone like
that who is not affected by the way one of
the things that Nick Saban told me about Julio Jones
completely different. When you get a player at that level
who is not affected just by random stuff, that's a
big positive. Now, he obviously has to step up and
(03:27):
be the player he is. He has a lot of positives.
He's not the best in the class in my mind,
but I think they really have to continue to focus
on this. I would not necessarily trade back into the
fifteens or twenty to try to get something. I think
if I was pretty darn sure about that quarterback, I
would go after the quarterback in that pick and not
(03:47):
pick back. Remember, by the way, and I'm talking a
lot here on this, I was known as trader Thomas, right,
but I rarely traded back, so I don't have a
lot of history of commenting on the back trade thing.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Yeah, and you know how much do you sometimes have
to push a quarterback up your board a little bit?
Because you know that's how this goes, right, If you
go by straight grades, you're never gonna draft the quarterback
because quarterbacks get pushed up to such a valuable position.
So how much are you willing to do that because
it's such an important position? And how do you figure
out where you draw that line when too much is
(04:22):
too much and it's going to be detrimental to your team.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Now, that's a great point. We all push we all
push people up that we need. A lot of mistakes
in the in the league are made by excessive need,
whether it's pass rushers, quarterbacks, whatever it may be. When
you come to the quarterback position, there is no question
there is that proverbial quarterback tax, right John, where you
are paying for it and you have to pay for
it and you have to be aggressive, and you can't
(04:47):
sit back on your hands and think, oh, I'm gonna
pull this guy off at you know, I don't know,
forty five or fifty rarely happens. So you I personally
believe in this year's draft there are some of those
those you know, those quarterbacks like Jaylen Milroe or you know,
Jackson Dart whoever they should be Maybe they should be
second round picks and beyond Dylan Gabriel, the whole other conversation.
(05:10):
But you're going to have to move up into the
back into the twenties, I think, to get someone like
that or even even higher potentially. Remember though, also John,
this is one of those things with the rookie wage
scales so different than back in the back in the day, right,
I mean, I know people talk about it, but when
you're a GM, you're thinking about that. That's a big
load off of your mind. However, I always say this,
(05:34):
if you're a GM, one hundred percent your legacy, how
people perceive you for posterity, is how you acquire and
how you maintain your quarterback situation. I mean, coaches, it's
all on game planning. It's this and that. If you're
a GM and you don't make the move on the
quarterback and you're not successful with the quarterback, unfortunately, that's
(05:55):
a albatross potentially around your neck.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Yeah, and I think I think final one of the quarterbacks.
But I think is interesting.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
It's a very different position to scout, right, because if
you walk away in the draft and you get the
eighteenth best wide receiver in the National Football League, that's
gonna be a pretty goodlay. Right, You're gonna feel pretty
good about that. But if you walk up with the
eighteenth best quarterback? Is that moving the dial for the organization?
Speaker 3 (06:17):
Right?
Speaker 2 (06:18):
So at what point do you say, Thomas, is it
worth it even throwing a dart at the position?
Speaker 3 (06:23):
You know?
Speaker 2 (06:23):
I went back and the criteria I used is getting
your team to the second round of the playoffs. And
I looked at all the quarterbacks drafted since the year
two thousand and I tried to find success rates based
on what round you picked them in, and the second
and third round was around ten to twelve percent. Ten
to twelve percent of the quarterbacks taken in those two
rounds since two thousand got their teams to the second
round of the playoffs. So, as a GM, if you're
(06:46):
shooting for that upside, at what point do you decide
is it worth it even trying to get a quarterback
in a round two or around three just because you
might not have a really good chance of that high
end upside?
Speaker 1 (06:57):
How do you evaluate that part of it?
Speaker 3 (06:59):
Look, I'm a big believer in being able to do that. However,
it is imperative that you have an incredibly smart offensive
coordinator coordinator mind at the head coach and the coordinator spot.
You do Brian Dabols very very smart that way, understanding
that you have a legitimate plan, and as a GM,
you put your head coach and your coordinators strongly on
(07:21):
the spot and you make sure that the game plan
is right on re how you're going to work with
this second potential second round or third round quarterback and
develop in fast, put the right people around him, get
the right scheme, the right game plan. I mean, Kyle
Shanahan we know has done that in the past, not
just with brock Party, but he's done it before, being
around quarterbacks in the past. I think that's a real
(07:44):
trait and I think Brian and my personal opinion, needs
to come in with a big plan that way. If
they're gonna throw a dart in the second or third round.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Yeah, I think that's a great point.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
My final question on the quarterback evaluation part of this
how important And we saw a report late last week
the Giants were getting private workouts with a bunch of
these different quarterbacks. How much do you get out of
these private workouts the days with the quarterbacks that really
help you with that position, specifically understanding how they think,
why they do things on certain plays, whiteboard work, going
(08:16):
through video with them. That is even more important than
be doing with guys at other positions.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
Yeah, I think. Look, we've always said the more time
you can spend with the quarterback and really dig into
his psyche because their benchmark and gauge on every element
that you're looking at, every position specific and all the
attributes are so much higher than other positions. So it
is imperative that you spend time there. I used to
use the phrase, you know you need to sniff the
(08:42):
pits of the players on the field. Well, you really
need to, my mind, sniff the breath of this quarterback.
You need to spend time with them. One of the
deciding factors with us with Matt Ryan back in the
day happened to be with putting him on the whiteboard
on a dinner up in Boston and Boston College and
around the area and really sitting in there and asking
him pointed questions, but watching how he interacted around the
(09:05):
table with you know, ten really high powered people in
the NFL, seeing how he has moved, seeing how he reacted.
All of those things really come out in those interview
times and the time on the field with him and
moving him into the into the whiteboard and having him speak,
there's nothing like that. However, we also have situations where
there might be a little bit of nervousness and there
(09:27):
might be a little bit of elements of the personality
that you walk away think, gosh, I don't really know
if I jive with that guy, And then the next
meeting John, it gets a lot better and you're you're relieved, right,
So there are some real aha moments in those in
those times together, both good and bad, and I think
it's imperative you have them if you were just doing
(09:47):
those virtual and god forbid goes in that direction. We
all understand virtual, but if it goes in that direction
where we never really meet with these guys, I think
that would be an atrocity. To be honest with you, it's
a very important time.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Now I'm with one hundred percent all right.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
I want to get to a couple other positions and
just how you approach them in a second. But you're
at sumer Sports now, are you guys doing a great
job with accumulating data, helping NFL teams build and things
of that nature. As you've done more of this work, Thomas,
what have you learned maybe that you didn't even realize
as a general manager when you're running a team, and
the data that is really important and the stuff you
really look at now that you think maybe you wish
(10:23):
you had had access to when you were running a
team that can help predict what college players will succeed
in the NFL, which I still think is one of
the hardest things anyone has to do in any sport.
It's just because the games are so different, and predicting
what you know twenty year old players are going to
do five years from now, it's a really tough thing
to do.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
That's a really tough thing. I would say this, this
is all. We could talk about this for two hours
on another show, for sure, and so let me know
about it. But the net net of it for me
right now, having been around suomer Sports for almost four
years and passing up opportunities to potentially go back into
the NFL because I believe even this, I believe in
the evolution of the league. I am one hundred percent
(11:03):
a football guy. It's how I was raised. However, I've
talked to you before about this. With data, it's about
augmentation and if you're an open minded enough organization to
understand how imperative it is to have augmented elements to
your building. IE, let's bring this advanced data, and let's
(11:24):
basically juxtapose everything subjective with everything objective. And what I
mean by that is in the past, what I had
done in those earlier years when it wasn't as prevalent.
I would take elements of data out there, some levels
they weren't anywhere near as advance as they are today,
and I would apply it to our process. I would
(11:45):
say now if I were ever to go back in John,
and I'd recommend this to any GM. I take anything
anything subjective and have an objective juxtaposition. Right there is
so much data out there but for character, and you
know at work ethics some of those things are complicated
to measure right now. But all the other position specifics
(12:08):
and all the other approaches i e. Stack busting, when
you're looking at five quarterbacks or five guards or five
pass rushers, there are elements to take some great data
and juxtapose it to all of your scouting information, all
of your scouting reports, and then it doesn't mean one
is right or wrong. I've always said that as I've
been working in this, it promotes and initiates more conversation
(12:32):
to really dig deep and to find out other layers
of what you might not have looked at if not
looking at the data.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
The johnsont Podcast is brought to you by Citizens, the
Official Bank of the Giants. From game day celebrations to
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Speaker 1 (12:49):
Learn more at citizensbank dot com slash Giants, Huddle up,
get in here. If you're lined up here, you got
to go over the middle with at the score?
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Great? How do we make that happen?
Speaker 3 (13:00):
I don't know, but Citizen does.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
It makes sense of your money with Citizens Official Bank
of Eli Manning, Yeah, I would love to do that.
We can go through the different positions on another thing.
I think that'd be awesome. We can definitely do that
down the road. I'll contact your people, they can talk
to my people, and we'll make that happen.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Perfect, perfect, all right.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
I want to go through a couple positions here.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
When you're building a draft board, when you're just thinking
about this in general, how much is the GM are
you thinking about building your.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Draft class overall?
Speaker 2 (13:30):
In terms of leaning into the strength of a draft
rather than just going one pick in a time, all right,
this is the best player. Of picking this guy without
kind of looking ahead to see how that might impact
what you're doing later on in the draft based on
where the value in that draft might be.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
It's a great question. You do step back as a
general manager and as a personnel department, and you really
look closely at the strengths of the draft, the position
strengths of the draft, and then you juxtapose that using
that word again to the free agency world, right, because
what we want to do as team builders is and
what I'm sure Joe Shane and Brian Daball want to
(14:07):
do is step back and say, what are we going
to do in the free agency class. Let's see if
we can knock off two or three needs where we
know we can get them. And then going into the
precariousness of the draft, and I say precariousness is you know,
you don't know if you're going to get that player.
It's a lot easier to really strike the check and
get the free agents. So in my mind, it was
(14:28):
always about scenario building, Right. You look at the strength
of the free agency class, strength of the draft, all
the positions where the strengths are and then you start
mapping out where you think you can go. This was
a great thing for GMS to do, not only for
their building group, but also for their owner to realize
that there is a game plan going into the draft,
(14:49):
and you're not to your earlier illusion. You're not just
you know, throwing darts anytime the next best player comes up. Hey,
make no mistake about it, John, Like people tell me, oh,
it's not needs based draft. It is needs based at
every level, you know, and I understand the severity is
a little different. I say that because you might need
(15:09):
two different positions. You might need a pass rusher and
a quarterback, and yet there's a pass rusher who is
exponentially better than the best quarterback that you can get,
and you need both of those positions. Well, even though
the quarterback is needed a little bit more, you might
take the pass rusher who is exponentially better. If you
get where I'm going. So you have to be agile
(15:31):
when you're building and as you're approaching the draft. But
if you have the good pro department in place and
a very sound general manager who has the thought process
and the scenario building taken care of, man, I think
you have a really good shot to be successful in
your drafts and building.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
All Right, you mentioned pass rusher, and I think what
we're seeing now is two different types of edge players
come out here, Thomas, where you have the smaller upfield
guys that are you know, two forty two fifty, you know,
the donovanz Roku's, the Mike Greens, the Jalen Walkers. And
then you have the other guys. Right, you have the
two hundred sixty five pounds Mike Coe Williams. Right, you
(16:08):
have the big Shamar Stewart's coming out for you. Is
that a scheme thing depending on how you want to
play your defense, which guy you would favor or is
there some data out there showing that you know you
would rather have this small or explosive guy versus kind
of the big edgesetter.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
Okay, you're not gonna want to hear this lead in,
but there are so many great athletes that have come
out at the pass rush position, and there are a
lot of mistakes. Yeah, yeah, just count on that. On
the quarterback side, we as football people get so caught
up in the athleticism and the burst off the line
of scrimmage. Look, I'll raise my hand. We made some
mistakes in Atlanta with our pass rushers. You know, Vic
(16:45):
Beasley was an unbelievable athlete. We were so excited about
building with him. Unfortunately, in the end, his sort of
drive to play football, he started to fall down in this.
We make moves because of excessive need, and then we
pair it with the athleticism that we're talking about here.
I'm not going tangentially here, but I'll come back. And
(17:05):
then you get a coaching staff normally who says I
will move that guy from a four maybe an average
passion for the game and work ethic because he's so athletic,
but because of their coaching prowess, they can make that
kid a seven, which rarely happens. So I think it's
imperative at this position to make sure you get the
(17:26):
hard working guy, the grinding type of guy. And I'm
not talking about an overachiever. I'm just talking about making
sure that that pass rusher along with what you're saying
back to whether it's scheme related. I'm a big believer
in getting that athlete coming off the edge, I mean
bursting his butt around there, closing, doing all those special
things that the Giants are used to over a guy
who is historically the best ever to have done it.
(17:50):
You know, way back, they've had some good ones. Don't
get me wrong, I mean for sure, but I'm talking
all the way back to LT. I'm a big believer
in the difference maker at that pillar position. That's what
I I would rather. I know there are some other
really good ones out there that are solid and sound
and come up with six to eight sacks, but there's
no doubt in the short term of this league. If
you don't get that blockbuster guy who's you know, the
(18:12):
mid to high double digits, man, I think you're lacking. Unfortunately,
we never really came away with that in Atlanta. That
was sort of the bane of my existence at times.
But it's a tough one. It's a tough one.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
And Tomas, by the way, I think that Falcons are
still looking for that pass runner by the way today,
To be totally honest with you, it's a tough position
to find that.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
I guess, Hey, I'll just be straight up with it.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Do you think Abdul Quarter matches those types of characteristics
you're talking about.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
Yeah, I think that's where I was going to go.
The guy like that, if he's sitting there and if
you ever did think you could pull back and find
someone in the second quarterback spot, this guy is that
kind of guy that's just you know, he's explosive. He
has so many traits to him, obviously coming from a program,
who knows how to work and knows how to keep
things in line, and he's not a wayward sold that way.
I think that's very positive.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
All Right, defensive tackle, same type of deal right in
this class. It's a great defensive tackle class, and you
have so many guys of those two different groups. You
have the three techs that can move out to the
five that are two ninety three hundred.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
They can get a field, they win with quickness.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
But I think the NFL, and please correct me if
you think I'm off base on this, we've seen a
lot more power running game, a lot more gap scheme guys.
You know, look the way that Sean mcvah and the
Rams have played run a lot of power up the middle,
and I think with the way linebackers have shrunk, you
almost need those big guys in front of them to
kind of keep them free so they can run.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
To the ball. Are we seeing the bigger defensive.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Tackles that can maybe two gap a little bit occupy
guys become a little bit more valuable. But then on
the other side of you, guys got like Chris Jones,
who's you know, the best pass rush on the Chiefs.
He's something to win Super Bowl. So how do you
do the defensive tackle position. Do you really need both
or do you favor one over the other.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
Now, look, I'm a big I love the favoring of
them both, honestly, John, Like those are having that stout nose,
like a legit nose that's going to occupy and going
to be able to two gap. I mean back in
the day, we've seen some of those special guys that
really anchor inside and then you put that really good
quick up up, you know, up the field type of guy.
(20:10):
I think being able to rotate through that interior is great.
One thing I will tell you that used to drive
me bonker is if I would ask the decordinator, Okay,
this dtackle that you're talking about drafting, if you're going
to play him thirty percent of the time, there is
no way in our world that we're going to draft
that guy at fifteen. So I've always been a big
(20:30):
believer speaking from a general manager perspective, making sure again
you're pressing appropriate and I love coaches, don't get me wrong,
but pressing him and saying, hey, we're not going to
draft the guy this high. If you're not going to
utilize him, he better be a guy that can you
can utilize in your scheme. And he's a seventy eighty percenter,
right John, not a thirty percent.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Yeah, it's funny.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
I want to go to the running back class now
because I think you don't have many eighty percenters at
running back anymore in the league.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
Right.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
All these guys are sixty percenters, forty percenters, And much
like this class in terms of DTS, you had a
bunch of different shapes and sizes at running back. With
the way the lee's going, do you like the grinder
that'll give you eighteen to twenty carries a game?
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Or do you want to get maybe a grinder that'll
get you eight to ten carries?
Speaker 2 (21:15):
But then you want to spend the capital on that
explosive guy that that's going to maybe catch the ball
a little bit better and as the chance to hit
a lot more home runs rather than the bigger guy
that runs hits, more singles and doubles.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
Look, I mean I've had both in my time at
the Helm running, you know, as a general manager, and
it's exciting to have that big time guy that's just
going to be a game breaker, you know when I
look back on that way back in the day. For
some of your listeners who probably don't even remember Michael Turner,
but when we kicked off our time in Atlanta, we
got a guy there that could run the rock. He
(21:47):
was big, strong, he was very consistent for four plus
years for us, and then we had the change of
pace guy. You know, that is very important. So to
your point, it's great to pair both. You have that
cop change a pace guy who's a change of pace
guy compared to the main guy you're bringing in. If
you're bringing in a Saquon Barkley in a situation and
(22:08):
you have another change of pace guy that can rotate
through at the right time and bring creative elements to
your offense, I think that's fantastic. You could talk to
most coordinators out there. I believe they would say they
would love both. I won't even get into the conversation.
You guys have dealt with it all year this past
year on this. But that special guy can be the
(22:28):
game breaker. But where do you go for him? Right,
I mean, and how long does he last? Which is
one of the things. I think It's been great for
the running back group. What happened last year, right, it's
brought back the reality is you can't win in this
league without a legit run game, the pressure that you
put on the quarterback. And everyone's saying, oh, it should
be all we can get a fifth and sixth rounder
(22:50):
as a running back. Yes, it's happened in the past,
it's not that common. There are good values there. Again,
you know the Shanahan Klan group has done that in
the past. They know about getting I'm talking all the
way back to his dad. They know about bringing those backs.
And there are some good backs. We could go through
a litanyum names that could play for you guys, but
are they the game breakers that you need? And I
(23:13):
do believe that in today's world you need that sound,
solid game breaker at that position to help your young
quarterback develop. By the way, along with tight ends. My
huge believer in a stout tight end group as well.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
All right, well let's go to tight end. I think
that's a good next place to go. I love playing
twelve personnel if you can, Thomas, So I think you
can get both of these guys. I think you're in
great shape. But do you see more value in the
Y tight end where the team doesn't know if you're
running a passing you can use play action, you can
block and get off the line. Or do you like
that F tight end where he's technically a tight end,
but he's more of a receiver and you're gonna use
(23:46):
him as kind of like a movement weapon in the
past game.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
Yeah, I mean, look, ideally, when you're a team builder,
you're saying, I want the F slash Y. I want
the guy that's the dual guy. Those are the guys
that are going in the top fifteen. Right. We've seen
some even last I mean what we're seeing out there
with you know Bowers, like all these guys that have
the unbelievable talents athleticism to go along with their ability
to be in a Y situation. The reality is there
(24:12):
are very few of those that are adept at both.
I personally would sway towards having a really strong F
with A and I say slash. This is prioritizing, right
with a slash y ability, even if it's at an
adequate ability, but have the you know, the very good,
the excellent area on the F side, versus having a
Y with only adequate F. He's not moving well, he's
(24:34):
not separating, he's an underneath guy. That limits you. Coming
in with a very strong tight end group again, a
very good F and a very good Y like one
that's going to be a sound blocker, and then a
third that's got some mix. I think is a great
way to approach it. This is I mean, look, we
talk about young quarterbacks, we talk about high percentage shots.
(24:55):
If you have the tight end, that's going to be
a high percentage shot for a guy like shitter who's
going to have some growing Like we did again with
Matt Ryan. We threw them twenty two to twenty five
times a game, but we had a running back and
we had a legit tight end in year two when
we traded for Tony Gonzalez. Tony Gonzalez was a game breaker,
game changer for Matt Ryan and his development back in
(25:15):
the day. Of course, these are the kind of things
that I think are very important when you're acquiring a
tight end.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Why does it take you think and I think I
know the answer, but I'm curious as to what your
take is as a GM. Why do you think it
takes tight ends a little bit more time to develop
in the NFL than maybe guys at other positions.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Look, I think everyone expects the tight end, and I've
had these conversations numerous times with coordinators, and everyone expects
the tight end to come and be a more adept
blocker and more of a back to what I said,
more of a well rounded individual. And I just I
think you cannot get a tight end by the way
John that comes in that is lacking in football intelligence.
(25:55):
I think it's must at that position. They don't have
to be outraged as wonderlick person or or sat guy.
I'm talking about intuitive, smart football guy that will not
slow up the production and the creativity of an offensive scheme.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
All right, let's take on the offensive side of the
wide receiver. How much do you think that position is
becoming more specialized Thomas, in terms of where you line
the guys up, how you use them as going to
determine how successful they are.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
Yeah. Look, I'm a big believer in wide receivers. Obviously,
I moved up twenty one spots for Julio Jones was
a I was skewered for that by some and other
thought maybe we had something figured it out. Look, you
need a game breaker at pillar position. It's a pillar position,
whether you like it or not. You guys have one
right now in neighbors right. Love what he is. Love
(26:46):
being able to have that guy who's your go to guy,
but then you have you're smart personally. I like those
bigger athletic receivers that move like they're five to eleven.
I don't like the long levered not that I don't
like them, I'm saying there's a place for them potentially,
but I'm much more into having those guys that move
(27:07):
very well. Always about separation, right, It's always about separation.
If you can't separate. I don't care if you're a
four to three guy or four to two guy. If
you can't separate and you don't have the ability to
run routes and don't have the body control to get
into and out of your cuts, adjust for the ball
you're lacking. So I'm a big believer in getting those one,
two and three receivers you know, as obviously very athletic
(27:30):
guys who can who have versatility. Remember that is another key,
that's the overriding theme in the NFL. Right now, John,
So many positions give me versatility at a receiver who
can play X, who can move inside, has the ability
to run routes inside as well as the speed on
the outside. And I think you know again, I think
you have something if you pair those receivers together back
(27:50):
to your original question, and you're smart about how you're
going to utilize them in your scheme. This comes down,
by the way, last point, to make sure that you
are evaluating them right. You're getting your O coordinator and
your receiver coach communicating with your scouting department, John, to
let them know exactly what is expected out of each
position you are going to be acquiring. Because when you're
(28:12):
not doing that and scouts are just out there evaluating
just pure athletic ability and receiver ability, you may make
mistakes in putting together that stall of receivers that we
all know is vital, and you can get some very
good receivers later in the draft. We all know that
if you want to know how to manage two minutes
of crunch time football, I'm your man.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
But if you're wondering about a long term financial plan,
you should talk to Citizens.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
Hey, I can also talk long.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Care I'd like to learn about amliar team. Yes, I
knew I could help make sense of your money with Citizens.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
And I think in this class, especially the Day two class,
I think is very strong. And when I think about
trying to compment the Giants' current group, they just resigned
Darius Lane. He's kind of your vertical threat in the outside.
And to your point, Neighbors is a guy. He can
go on the slot, he can play outside, he can
do everything. I think if Wanda ramis in the last
year of his rookie contract, if you could add another
guy that I think could interchange with Neighbors so you
(29:04):
can successfully move him around make it more difficult for
teams to double him. I think if you can find
that type of guy, that could almost help Neighbors, because
it's going to make teams make it a little more
difficult for teams to focus on him if you're constantly
putting him in different areas of the field.
Speaker 3 (29:19):
When you have a game breaker as a receiver all
on Neighbors, it doesn't matter if he catches. It really
doesn't matter if he catches four balls or fourteen balls,
because if he's that type of receivers that has the
defense on their heels and they're worried about game planning,
and then when they get on the field, they're like,
you know, neighbors, neighbors, neighbors. Julio Jones, Julio Jones. I've
seen it time and again where defensive are all defenses
(29:39):
are all skewered, and they're all over the place because
they're worried. It just adds an element that you know
in the past some of the teams and you don't
like me probably saying that some of the teams like
what Howie has done in Philly. They do a really
good job by creating all of these sort of questions
on that receiver line, and then all of a sudden
people don't know who to truly cover. Someone's going to
be open.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
All right.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
I want to go back real quick to Edges. I
forgot to ask one follow upcause I think you had
a great answer about one of the guys would burst
in athleticism. They get a field if you see one
of those guys, but they don't have the production in
college that you're looking for.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
How do you try to.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Dig into that to figure out, all right, this has
them more to do with circumstance, how they used him
and we think we can get more out of him.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
In the pros.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
How much does a production or lack thereof impact How
you evaluate some of these guys in the edge class well.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
As I mentioned before, I think you know, really taking
it this way, take making sure you know what that
person is about as much as possible. That's important character,
knowing that they're going to work at their craft and
continue to develop if they're not a high productive group.
To your point, really digging in on why that is,
digging in on the scheme, digging in on there is
so much data out there right now that you can
(30:47):
dig in on that can glean certain information that you
can go back and then do a lot of adjusting
and views on video. On the subjective side, this is
what I'm talking about with augmentation. If you just blindly
projecting like I love this guy's athleticism, excuse me, and
I love his personality. He's only got four sacks, He'll
(31:08):
have fourteen for us. I think that's flying by the
seat of your pants. You really need to find out
why you need to find out the coaching scheme. Quite honestly,
you need to find out who has been coaching him
at that position, what is he lacking and is it
his repertoire and moves whatever it may be, there is
a reason that some of these guys aren't producing. It's
imperative to look the owner in the eye, the head
(31:29):
coach of course as a GM, and say this is
why this guy has the upside it is. I mean
it used to drive me bonkers, by the way, when
you would get a position coach could be a pass
rush guy or a d lion guy or a linebacker
guy saying I love this guy, he's going to be
an All Pro And you know that's that's a tough
projection just just by watching a guy who has limited production,
(31:51):
they have to produce man in the end, they have
to go you have to go back and watch him
on VIDs and you have to figure out why or
why not he hasn't been producing.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
We talk about the that of that upfield interior pass
rusher these days. Does that make the guard position, Thomas,
you think more important than it used to be seen
that some of the contrasts given out of guard I
think indicate teams are starting to value that position a
little bit more to protect the depth of that pocket
for a quarterback.
Speaker 3 (32:15):
Oh, there's no question about it. I mean, all these
great quarterbacks out there, Matt Ryan, including my own experience,
and when there's an interior pass rush and it's valid
and vital and quick and explosive, it it throws the
quarterbacks world upside down. I remember some of the quar
quarterbacks I've been around with Matt Ryan, but Tom Brady,
some of those guys, they can handle some of the
(32:36):
outside rush in a certain way right being you know,
there's a way to do that, but that stuff coming
up in the interior with legitimacy, with speed, with I
mean some of those guys who are three hundred plus
pounds who are running you know, four to seven fives
or four sixes whatever, they are even better. Sometimes those
are disruptive. So back to your point, that og that
O center, I mean, those guys are vital and back
(32:58):
in the day, we used to say pull those guys
late in the draft, midted to late in the draft,
or we can pull them in free agency late, don't
spend money on them completely. In my mind, one of
our best free agents was a center we took from
the Browns, and I think about that, and I think
about what he did for us, for Matt Ryan over
the years, and what I was for many many years
(33:19):
I was vehemently opposed to. I realized that interior is
so vital. There are some really good guards out in
this draft. I think there aren't a ton of them,
but there are projected tackles that could move into guard.
Remember that guard spot. There has to be an element
of nasty, tough, reactionary elements there that aren't just kind
of like, you know, hey, he can put his hand
(33:40):
down and I remember this is a funny story. Very quickly.
We drafted on offensive center guard one time, and I'm
for not to mention his name. People can figure it
out and deduce it. But loved the guy. And you
remember him telling me in the lunch room one time.
He said, Thomas, sometimes I just put my hand down
and I'm thinking about greener pastures. And I'm like, oh
my gosh, I love you, man, but don't think green
pastures on Sunday. That's a whole You do it the
(34:02):
rest of the week. I need your ass fired up,
ready to take someone's head off and So the point
is making sure that that's a well rounded position that
you're acquiring. And I think that's important moving forward.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
Alex Mac that pro bowler that you're brought in, really
really good player. How much has and this is this
final question on the data and scouting real quick, how
much has the on field tracking data that I'm sure
you guys have access to helped you in terms of
evaluation where we use that to depend on you know,
running the forty at the combine. But now we have
(34:34):
all this on field data of how fast guys run,
how fast guys come in out of their breaks. How
much does that data for you guys help augment the
way you see some of these players.
Speaker 3 (34:44):
Yeah, and I think it's an important thing. Right, we're projecting.
There are a lot of players that you don't really
have a legit forty four we're projecting, you know, as
we continue to grow, we're projecting other drills.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Right.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
I'm a big believer in the three cone. How we're projecting.
I mean these the way that the data is going
and being able to project and have numbers, legitimate numbers
through frame by frame analysis, I think to me is fascinating.
It is next waves we know that, we realize where
it is. My biggest point on all of this is
you have to have an open minded organization who is
(35:17):
willing to take that data and implement it. That's I
tell people all the time, three and a half plus
years in this business. I'm not claiming that I have
a PhD in it. What I do have a PhD
I think, or a growing understanding of, is the proper
implementation of the data that we have and not just
being afraid of that data and tucking it away and
you you know in your portfolio, utilizing it properly is
(35:41):
very important and that's where the league is going to
go over the next few years for sure, being comfortable
with how they are diagnosing and implementing the data.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Finally, final question, how do you tell teams to put
that data in proper context? Because that's the key to
all this, right, figuring out what the data means and
how you use it and how you should let it
influence the way you think about these players. Obviously, I'm
sure it's different for different data points, but how important
is understanding the proper context to use this data so
you are applying it properly. It could be perfect data
(36:12):
and great datam but if you're not applying it properly,
it can hurt you as much as it helps you.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
Yeah, that's that's exactly right. And I think that just
takes time, and that takes confidence that what you're utilizing
is not overriding all of your football expertise. Right. It's again,
it's about it's about perfectly that side by side, you know,
subjective and objective. And I will say one of the
things that I've realized with myself included when you're in
the football world and you're taking on data and you're
(36:39):
making decisions on this, you know, game time decision making
or roster management, roster optimization, and you see this is
the difference by using this will be a you know,
between eight percent and twelve percent difference. The football people
are like twelve percent, are you kidding me? I want
eighty nine or ninety two percent. It's not happening. And gentlemen,
(37:00):
if you if you can't die, differentiate between those smaller
percentages marginal gains, which we know are important and I
keep drilling that into my contemporaries heads. Marginal gains are vital.
Don't expect these massive increases, understand that there is proper
utilization and effectiveness and efficacy to the utilization of data
(37:22):
in those smaller percentage differences. And that's what I try
to continue to stress to people.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Yeah, I mean, I think I'll put it in a
layman terms, Right, you get an eighty on a test.
If you do ten percent better, you turn a B
minus into a B plus. Right, And in the long term,
that's that. It means something, It changes something. All right, Tom,
Before we say goodbye, tell the folks about what you're
doing at tchumor all the cool stuff. You guys put
out your Draft Guy for the first time this year,
which has been awesome. People should go check that out.
(37:49):
Tell about everything you guys are doing over there.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
Yeap Summer Sports dot com and we have so many
things going on. We have we have all kinds of
offerings we continue to offer on the B to B side,
So NFL NNC we're doing a lot of work in
the NC double A space, which ultimately helps the NFL
space and vice versa. That's great. We are also offering
at a number of different levels, you know, platforms to
manage both NFL and NC DOUBLEA and more appropriately, probably
(38:14):
and applicable to your your your listeners. We're working on
that consumer side diligently to continue to provide great information,
both appropriately subjective and objective information that tie into people.
And you know, we have people on our staff are
who are fantasy efficionados. Right, that's not my world, but
there's a lot of that going on. We love what
we did with our draft guide, so we're hoping everyone
(38:36):
checks it out and keep keep watching smer. There's a
lot to come.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
Yeah, just go to suomer sports dot com guys, and
you can just go through it, look at the data.
There's a bunch of links on top and you can
scroll find that draft guide again. It's really easy to navigate,
they guys. You guys did a great job. Put it
again the toimecause it really is easy. A lot of graphics.
They just very easy to navigate. And appreciate all the
hard work you guys are doing. Thanks so much of
the time.
Speaker 3 (38:59):
Man.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
We appreciate get it.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
Always appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Thanks man, And I can't wait to hook up to
kind of dig in more into the data analysis and
things like that. That's the Johns Total Podcast, brought to
you by citizens Official Bank of the Giants from the
Hackensack Mariney Health podcast studio, keep getting better, We'll see
you next time.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
Everybody
It's time to get inside the Giants. Hutt's Giant The
Giants Mouble give me some job. Part of the Giants
podcast network. Let's roll.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Welcome to another of the Giants Little podcast, brought to
you by Citizens, the official bank of the Giants. I
am John Schmelk, coming to you from the Hackensack Marine
Health podcast studio, Keep getting Better. Today's guest is former
NFL general manager now the CEO of Sumer Sports, Thomas,
to meet your off. And now we welcome in former
NFL general manager and the CEO of Sumer Sports, Thomas,
(00:31):
to meet your off Thomas.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
How are you?
Speaker 3 (00:34):
I am always good. Thanks for reaching out. It's an
energetic time, right You guys in New York have a
lot to do. I'm sure.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Yes, we are at the center of the draft.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
A lot of people are calling the Giants kind of
the fulcrum of the draft process, so let's start there.
And I think, as someone that's done this before and
built the draft board, I'm curious how you would approach this, Thomas.
When you're in a situation like the Giants where I
think they've addressed their short term quarterback need, like if
they don't walk away with a quarterback. They have two
guys that they feel comfortable playing, but you always want
(01:04):
to have that guy that can be your future long
term starter on the roster. But it's not a great
quarterback class. So you're picking third. Maybe not the best
year to be picking third if you need a quarterback.
So how would you approach the quarterback situation if you
were the Giants?
Speaker 3 (01:19):
You're right, I mean it's not a great draft, not
saying that these guys aren't talented and don't have upside, right,
you know, talking about Kim Moore and talking about Shidarah
Sanders and then who is going to be the ultimate
third right next three, four and five in the draft.
But it is complicated, and when you're Joe Shane in
company coming off of the year that you had, there's
(01:40):
a lot of pressure, of course from a city that
expects big things. So that aside, I mean whether we
say as general managers, that never affects us. I don't
think about the fan base and I don't think about
the media. The reality is it's always on your mind.
You are if you are a proud individual like Joe is.
He wants to do right, He wants his legacy to
(02:00):
be strong hair. So to answer your question, I think
what you need to do is you really need to
drill down which they have been on a guy like
ster Sanders and really decide on is this the person
that we need to take us into the future. We
know that that didn't happen in the past. Pick right,
and an organization that is looking for that quarterback. There
(02:21):
is a it is so important to come in this
year with a guy that's going to, in my mind
and help impact out the gate. We did it with
Matt Ryan in Atlanta. Right. Never did I think, well,
we're going to put him on the bench for two
or three years. Some teams have the ability to do that.
A lot of teams don't. And this is a here
and now. We talked about it, I think last year
(02:41):
or the year before. It is here and now in
the NFL. And if you don't jump on it, and
you don't take the chance on it, of course you're
going to be wallowing in mediocrity, which is not what
the New York Giants need and the fan base need.
I think you go in here as the Giants personally,
and I would say, you know this whole idea about
Shader Sanders and his the father and the family. That
(03:05):
can be a positive. I know a lot of people
are playing like it's complicated, but to have someone like
that who is not affected by the way one of
the things that Nick Saban told me about Julio Jones
completely different. When you get a player at that level
who is not affected just by random stuff, that's a
big positive. Now, he obviously has to step up and
(03:27):
be the player he is. He has a lot of positives.
He's not the best in the class in my mind,
but I think they really have to continue to focus
on this. I would not necessarily trade back into the
fifteens or twenty to try to get something. I think
if I was pretty darn sure about that quarterback, I
would go after the quarterback in that pick and not
(03:47):
pick back. Remember, by the way, and I'm talking a
lot here on this, I was known as trader Thomas, right,
but I rarely traded back, so I don't have a
lot of history of commenting on the back trade thing.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Yeah, and you know how much do you sometimes have
to push a quarterback up your board a little bit?
Because you know that's how this goes, right, If you
go by straight grades, you're never gonna draft the quarterback
because quarterbacks get pushed up to such a valuable position.
So how much are you willing to do that because
it's such an important position? And how do you figure
out where you draw that line when too much is
(04:22):
too much and it's going to be detrimental to your team.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Now, that's a great point. We all push we all
push people up that we need. A lot of mistakes
in the in the league are made by excessive need,
whether it's pass rushers, quarterbacks, whatever it may be. When
you come to the quarterback position, there is no question
there is that proverbial quarterback tax, right John, where you
are paying for it and you have to pay for
it and you have to be aggressive, and you can't
(04:47):
sit back on your hands and think, oh, I'm gonna
pull this guy off at you know, I don't know,
forty five or fifty rarely happens. So you I personally
believe in this year's draft there are some of those
those you know, those quarterbacks like Jaylen Milroe or you know,
Jackson Dart whoever they should be Maybe they should be
second round picks and beyond Dylan Gabriel, the whole other conversation.
(05:10):
But you're going to have to move up into the
back into the twenties, I think, to get someone like
that or even even higher potentially. Remember though, also John,
this is one of those things with the rookie wage
scales so different than back in the back in the day, right,
I mean, I know people talk about it, but when
you're a GM, you're thinking about that. That's a big
load off of your mind. However, I always say this,
(05:34):
if you're a GM, one hundred percent your legacy, how
people perceive you for posterity, is how you acquire and
how you maintain your quarterback situation. I mean, coaches, it's
all on game planning. It's this and that. If you're
a GM and you don't make the move on the
quarterback and you're not successful with the quarterback, unfortunately, that's
(05:55):
a albatross potentially around your neck.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Yeah, and I think I think final one of the quarterbacks.
But I think is interesting.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
It's a very different position to scout, right, because if
you walk away in the draft and you get the
eighteenth best wide receiver in the National Football League, that's
gonna be a pretty goodlay. Right, You're gonna feel pretty
good about that. But if you walk up with the
eighteenth best quarterback? Is that moving the dial for the organization?
Speaker 3 (06:17):
Right?
Speaker 2 (06:18):
So at what point do you say, Thomas, is it
worth it even throwing a dart at the position?
Speaker 3 (06:23):
You know?
Speaker 2 (06:23):
I went back and the criteria I used is getting
your team to the second round of the playoffs. And
I looked at all the quarterbacks drafted since the year
two thousand and I tried to find success rates based
on what round you picked them in, and the second
and third round was around ten to twelve percent. Ten
to twelve percent of the quarterbacks taken in those two
rounds since two thousand got their teams to the second
round of the playoffs. So, as a GM, if you're
(06:46):
shooting for that upside, at what point do you decide
is it worth it even trying to get a quarterback
in a round two or around three just because you
might not have a really good chance of that high
end upside?
Speaker 1 (06:57):
How do you evaluate that part of it?
Speaker 3 (06:59):
Look, I'm a big believer in being able to do that. However,
it is imperative that you have an incredibly smart offensive
coordinator coordinator mind at the head coach and the coordinator spot.
You do Brian Dabols very very smart that way, understanding
that you have a legitimate plan, and as a GM,
you put your head coach and your coordinators strongly on
(07:21):
the spot and you make sure that the game plan
is right on re how you're going to work with
this second potential second round or third round quarterback and
develop in fast, put the right people around him, get
the right scheme, the right game plan. I mean, Kyle
Shanahan we know has done that in the past, not
just with brock Party, but he's done it before, being
around quarterbacks in the past. I think that's a real
(07:44):
trait and I think Brian and my personal opinion, needs
to come in with a big plan that way. If
they're gonna throw a dart in the second or third round.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Yeah, I think that's a great point.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
My final question on the quarterback evaluation part of this
how important And we saw a report late last week
the Giants were getting private workouts with a bunch of
these different quarterbacks. How much do you get out of
these private workouts the days with the quarterbacks that really
help you with that position, specifically understanding how they think,
why they do things on certain plays, whiteboard work, going
(08:16):
through video with them. That is even more important than
be doing with guys at other positions.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
Yeah, I think. Look, we've always said the more time
you can spend with the quarterback and really dig into
his psyche because their benchmark and gauge on every element
that you're looking at, every position specific and all the
attributes are so much higher than other positions. So it
is imperative that you spend time there. I used to
use the phrase, you know you need to sniff the
(08:42):
pits of the players on the field. Well, you really
need to, my mind, sniff the breath of this quarterback.
You need to spend time with them. One of the
deciding factors with us with Matt Ryan back in the
day happened to be with putting him on the whiteboard
on a dinner up in Boston and Boston College and
around the area and really sitting in there and asking
him pointed questions, but watching how he interacted around the
(09:05):
table with you know, ten really high powered people in
the NFL, seeing how he has moved, seeing how he reacted.
All of those things really come out in those interview
times and the time on the field with him and
moving him into the into the whiteboard and having him speak,
there's nothing like that. However, we also have situations where
there might be a little bit of nervousness and there
(09:27):
might be a little bit of elements of the personality
that you walk away think, gosh, I don't really know
if I jive with that guy, And then the next
meeting John, it gets a lot better and you're you're relieved, right,
So there are some real aha moments in those in
those times together, both good and bad, and I think
it's imperative you have them if you were just doing
(09:47):
those virtual and god forbid goes in that direction. We
all understand virtual, but if it goes in that direction
where we never really meet with these guys, I think
that would be an atrocity. To be honest with you, it's
a very important time.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Now I'm with one hundred percent all right.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
I want to get to a couple other positions and
just how you approach them in a second. But you're
at sumer Sports now, are you guys doing a great
job with accumulating data, helping NFL teams build and things
of that nature. As you've done more of this work, Thomas,
what have you learned maybe that you didn't even realize
as a general manager when you're running a team, and
the data that is really important and the stuff you
really look at now that you think maybe you wish
(10:23):
you had had access to when you were running a
team that can help predict what college players will succeed
in the NFL, which I still think is one of
the hardest things anyone has to do in any sport.
It's just because the games are so different, and predicting
what you know twenty year old players are going to
do five years from now, it's a really tough thing
to do.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
That's a really tough thing. I would say this, this
is all. We could talk about this for two hours
on another show, for sure, and so let me know
about it. But the net net of it for me
right now, having been around suomer Sports for almost four
years and passing up opportunities to potentially go back into
the NFL because I believe even this, I believe in
the evolution of the league. I am one hundred percent
(11:03):
a football guy. It's how I was raised. However, I've
talked to you before about this. With data, it's about
augmentation and if you're an open minded enough organization to
understand how imperative it is to have augmented elements to
your building. IE, let's bring this advanced data, and let's
(11:24):
basically juxtapose everything subjective with everything objective. And what I
mean by that is in the past, what I had
done in those earlier years when it wasn't as prevalent.
I would take elements of data out there, some levels
they weren't anywhere near as advance as they are today,
and I would apply it to our process. I would
(11:45):
say now if I were ever to go back in John,
and I'd recommend this to any GM. I take anything
anything subjective and have an objective juxtaposition. Right there is
so much data out there but for character, and you
know at work ethics some of those things are complicated
to measure right now. But all the other position specifics
(12:08):
and all the other approaches i e. Stack busting, when
you're looking at five quarterbacks or five guards or five
pass rushers, there are elements to take some great data
and juxtapose it to all of your scouting information, all
of your scouting reports, and then it doesn't mean one
is right or wrong. I've always said that as I've
been working in this, it promotes and initiates more conversation
(12:32):
to really dig deep and to find out other layers
of what you might not have looked at if not
looking at the data.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
The johnsont Podcast is brought to you by Citizens, the
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Speaker 1 (12:49):
Learn more at citizensbank dot com slash Giants, Huddle up,
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Speaker 2 (12:57):
Great? How do we make that happen?
Speaker 3 (13:00):
I don't know, but Citizen does.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
It makes sense of your money with Citizens Official Bank
of Eli Manning, Yeah, I would love to do that.
We can go through the different positions on another thing.
I think that'd be awesome. We can definitely do that
down the road. I'll contact your people, they can talk
to my people, and we'll make that happen.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Perfect, perfect, all right.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
I want to go through a couple positions here.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
When you're building a draft board, when you're just thinking
about this in general, how much is the GM are
you thinking about building your.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Draft class overall?
Speaker 2 (13:30):
In terms of leaning into the strength of a draft
rather than just going one pick in a time, all right,
this is the best player. Of picking this guy without
kind of looking ahead to see how that might impact
what you're doing later on in the draft based on
where the value in that draft might be.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
It's a great question. You do step back as a
general manager and as a personnel department, and you really
look closely at the strengths of the draft, the position
strengths of the draft, and then you juxtapose that using
that word again to the free agency world, right, because
what we want to do as team builders is and
what I'm sure Joe Shane and Brian Daball want to
(14:07):
do is step back and say, what are we going
to do in the free agency class. Let's see if
we can knock off two or three needs where we
know we can get them. And then going into the
precariousness of the draft, and I say precariousness is you know,
you don't know if you're going to get that player.
It's a lot easier to really strike the check and
get the free agents. So in my mind, it was
(14:28):
always about scenario building, Right. You look at the strength
of the free agency class, strength of the draft, all
the positions where the strengths are and then you start
mapping out where you think you can go. This was
a great thing for GMS to do, not only for
their building group, but also for their owner to realize
that there is a game plan going into the draft,
(14:49):
and you're not to your earlier illusion. You're not just
you know, throwing darts anytime the next best player comes up. Hey,
make no mistake about it, John, Like people tell me, oh,
it's not needs based draft. It is needs based at
every level, you know, and I understand the severity is
a little different. I say that because you might need
(15:09):
two different positions. You might need a pass rusher and
a quarterback, and yet there's a pass rusher who is
exponentially better than the best quarterback that you can get,
and you need both of those positions. Well, even though
the quarterback is needed a little bit more, you might
take the pass rusher who is exponentially better. If you
get where I'm going. So you have to be agile
(15:31):
when you're building and as you're approaching the draft. But
if you have the good pro department in place and
a very sound general manager who has the thought process
and the scenario building taken care of, man, I think
you have a really good shot to be successful in
your drafts and building.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
All Right, you mentioned pass rusher, and I think what
we're seeing now is two different types of edge players
come out here, Thomas, where you have the smaller upfield
guys that are you know, two forty two fifty, you know,
the donovanz Roku's, the Mike Greens, the Jalen Walkers. And
then you have the other guys. Right, you have the
two hundred sixty five pounds Mike Coe Williams. Right, you
(16:08):
have the big Shamar Stewart's coming out for you. Is
that a scheme thing depending on how you want to
play your defense, which guy you would favor or is
there some data out there showing that you know you
would rather have this small or explosive guy versus kind
of the big edgesetter.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
Okay, you're not gonna want to hear this lead in,
but there are so many great athletes that have come
out at the pass rush position, and there are a
lot of mistakes. Yeah, yeah, just count on that. On
the quarterback side, we as football people get so caught
up in the athleticism and the burst off the line
of scrimmage. Look, I'll raise my hand. We made some
mistakes in Atlanta with our pass rushers. You know, Vic
(16:45):
Beasley was an unbelievable athlete. We were so excited about
building with him. Unfortunately, in the end, his sort of
drive to play football, he started to fall down in this.
We make moves because of excessive need, and then we
pair it with the athleticism that we're talking about here.
I'm not going tangentially here, but I'll come back. And
(17:05):
then you get a coaching staff normally who says I
will move that guy from a four maybe an average
passion for the game and work ethic because he's so athletic,
but because of their coaching prowess, they can make that
kid a seven, which rarely happens. So I think it's
imperative at this position to make sure you get the
(17:26):
hard working guy, the grinding type of guy. And I'm
not talking about an overachiever. I'm just talking about making
sure that that pass rusher along with what you're saying
back to whether it's scheme related. I'm a big believer
in getting that athlete coming off the edge, I mean
bursting his butt around there, closing, doing all those special
things that the Giants are used to over a guy
who is historically the best ever to have done it.
(17:50):
You know, way back, they've had some good ones. Don't
get me wrong, I mean for sure, but I'm talking
all the way back to LT. I'm a big believer
in the difference maker at that pillar position. That's what
I I would rather. I know there are some other
really good ones out there that are solid and sound
and come up with six to eight sacks, but there's
no doubt in the short term of this league. If
you don't get that blockbuster guy who's you know, the
(18:12):
mid to high double digits, man, I think you're lacking. Unfortunately,
we never really came away with that in Atlanta. That
was sort of the bane of my existence at times.
But it's a tough one. It's a tough one.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
And Tomas, by the way, I think that Falcons are
still looking for that pass runner by the way today,
To be totally honest with you, it's a tough position
to find that.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
I guess, Hey, I'll just be straight up with it.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Do you think Abdul Quarter matches those types of characteristics
you're talking about.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
Yeah, I think that's where I was going to go.
The guy like that, if he's sitting there and if
you ever did think you could pull back and find
someone in the second quarterback spot, this guy is that
kind of guy that's just you know, he's explosive. He
has so many traits to him, obviously coming from a program,
who knows how to work and knows how to keep
things in line, and he's not a wayward sold that way.
I think that's very positive.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
All Right, defensive tackle, same type of deal right in
this class. It's a great defensive tackle class, and you
have so many guys of those two different groups. You
have the three techs that can move out to the
five that are two ninety three hundred.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
They can get a field, they win with quickness.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
But I think the NFL, and please correct me if
you think I'm off base on this, we've seen a
lot more power running game, a lot more gap scheme guys.
You know, look the way that Sean mcvah and the
Rams have played run a lot of power up the middle,
and I think with the way linebackers have shrunk, you
almost need those big guys in front of them to
kind of keep them free so they can run.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
To the ball. Are we seeing the bigger defensive.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Tackles that can maybe two gap a little bit occupy
guys become a little bit more valuable. But then on
the other side of you, guys got like Chris Jones,
who's you know, the best pass rush on the Chiefs.
He's something to win Super Bowl. So how do you
do the defensive tackle position. Do you really need both
or do you favor one over the other.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
Now, look, I'm a big I love the favoring of
them both, honestly, John, Like those are having that stout nose,
like a legit nose that's going to occupy and going
to be able to two gap. I mean back in
the day, we've seen some of those special guys that
really anchor inside and then you put that really good
quick up up, you know, up the field type of guy.
(20:10):
I think being able to rotate through that interior is great.
One thing I will tell you that used to drive
me bonker is if I would ask the decordinator, Okay,
this dtackle that you're talking about drafting, if you're going
to play him thirty percent of the time, there is
no way in our world that we're going to draft
that guy at fifteen. So I've always been a big
(20:30):
believer speaking from a general manager perspective, making sure again
you're pressing appropriate and I love coaches, don't get me wrong,
but pressing him and saying, hey, we're not going to
draft the guy this high. If you're not going to
utilize him, he better be a guy that can you
can utilize in your scheme. And he's a seventy eighty percenter,
right John, not a thirty percent.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Yeah, it's funny.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
I want to go to the running back class now
because I think you don't have many eighty percenters at
running back anymore in the league.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
Right.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
All these guys are sixty percenters, forty percenters, And much
like this class in terms of DTS, you had a
bunch of different shapes and sizes at running back. With
the way the lee's going, do you like the grinder
that'll give you eighteen to twenty carries a game?
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Or do you want to get maybe a grinder that'll
get you eight to ten carries?
Speaker 2 (21:15):
But then you want to spend the capital on that
explosive guy that that's going to maybe catch the ball
a little bit better and as the chance to hit
a lot more home runs rather than the bigger guy
that runs hits, more singles and doubles.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
Look, I mean I've had both in my time at
the Helm running, you know, as a general manager, and
it's exciting to have that big time guy that's just
going to be a game breaker, you know when I
look back on that way back in the day. For
some of your listeners who probably don't even remember Michael Turner,
but when we kicked off our time in Atlanta, we
got a guy there that could run the rock. He
(21:47):
was big, strong, he was very consistent for four plus
years for us, and then we had the change of
pace guy. You know, that is very important. So to
your point, it's great to pair both. You have that
cop change a pace guy who's a change of pace
guy compared to the main guy you're bringing in. If
you're bringing in a Saquon Barkley in a situation and
(22:08):
you have another change of pace guy that can rotate
through at the right time and bring creative elements to
your offense, I think that's fantastic. You could talk to
most coordinators out there. I believe they would say they
would love both. I won't even get into the conversation.
You guys have dealt with it all year this past
year on this. But that special guy can be the
(22:28):
game breaker. But where do you go for him? Right,
I mean, and how long does he last? Which is
one of the things. I think It's been great for
the running back group. What happened last year, right, it's
brought back the reality is you can't win in this
league without a legit run game, the pressure that you
put on the quarterback. And everyone's saying, oh, it should
be all we can get a fifth and sixth rounder
(22:50):
as a running back. Yes, it's happened in the past,
it's not that common. There are good values there. Again,
you know the Shanahan Klan group has done that in
the past. They know about getting I'm talking all the
way back to his dad. They know about bringing those backs.
And there are some good backs. We could go through
a litanyum names that could play for you guys, but
are they the game breakers that you need? And I
(23:13):
do believe that in today's world you need that sound,
solid game breaker at that position to help your young
quarterback develop. By the way, along with tight ends. My
huge believer in a stout tight end group as well.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
All right, well let's go to tight end. I think
that's a good next place to go. I love playing
twelve personnel if you can, Thomas, So I think you
can get both of these guys. I think you're in
great shape. But do you see more value in the
Y tight end where the team doesn't know if you're
running a passing you can use play action, you can
block and get off the line. Or do you like
that F tight end where he's technically a tight end,
but he's more of a receiver and you're gonna use
(23:46):
him as kind of like a movement weapon in the
past game.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
Yeah, I mean, look, ideally, when you're a team builder,
you're saying, I want the F slash Y. I want
the guy that's the dual guy. Those are the guys
that are going in the top fifteen. Right. We've seen
some even last I mean what we're seeing out there
with you know Bowers, like all these guys that have
the unbelievable talents athleticism to go along with their ability
to be in a Y situation. The reality is there
(24:12):
are very few of those that are adept at both.
I personally would sway towards having a really strong F
with A and I say slash. This is prioritizing, right
with a slash y ability, even if it's at an
adequate ability, but have the you know, the very good,
the excellent area on the F side, versus having a
Y with only adequate F. He's not moving well, he's
(24:34):
not separating, he's an underneath guy. That limits you. Coming
in with a very strong tight end group again, a
very good F and a very good Y like one
that's going to be a sound blocker, and then a
third that's got some mix. I think is a great
way to approach it. This is I mean, look, we
talk about young quarterbacks, we talk about high percentage shots.
(24:55):
If you have the tight end, that's going to be
a high percentage shot for a guy like shitter who's
going to have some growing Like we did again with
Matt Ryan. We threw them twenty two to twenty five
times a game, but we had a running back and
we had a legit tight end in year two when
we traded for Tony Gonzalez. Tony Gonzalez was a game breaker,
game changer for Matt Ryan and his development back in
(25:15):
the day. Of course, these are the kind of things
that I think are very important when you're acquiring a
tight end.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Why does it take you think and I think I
know the answer, but I'm curious as to what your
take is as a GM. Why do you think it
takes tight ends a little bit more time to develop
in the NFL than maybe guys at other positions.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Look, I think everyone expects the tight end, and I've
had these conversations numerous times with coordinators, and everyone expects
the tight end to come and be a more adept
blocker and more of a back to what I said,
more of a well rounded individual. And I just I
think you cannot get a tight end by the way
John that comes in that is lacking in football intelligence.
(25:55):
I think it's must at that position. They don't have
to be outraged as wonderlick person or or sat guy.
I'm talking about intuitive, smart football guy that will not
slow up the production and the creativity of an offensive scheme.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
All right, let's take on the offensive side of the
wide receiver. How much do you think that position is
becoming more specialized Thomas, in terms of where you line
the guys up, how you use them as going to
determine how successful they are.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
Yeah. Look, I'm a big believer in wide receivers. Obviously,
I moved up twenty one spots for Julio Jones was
a I was skewered for that by some and other
thought maybe we had something figured it out. Look, you
need a game breaker at pillar position. It's a pillar position,
whether you like it or not. You guys have one
right now in neighbors right. Love what he is. Love
(26:46):
being able to have that guy who's your go to guy,
but then you have you're smart personally. I like those
bigger athletic receivers that move like they're five to eleven.
I don't like the long levered not that I don't
like them, I'm saying there's a place for them potentially,
but I'm much more into having those guys that move
(27:07):
very well. Always about separation, right, It's always about separation.
If you can't separate. I don't care if you're a
four to three guy or four to two guy. If
you can't separate and you don't have the ability to
run routes and don't have the body control to get
into and out of your cuts, adjust for the ball
you're lacking. So I'm a big believer in getting those one,
two and three receivers you know, as obviously very athletic
(27:30):
guys who can who have versatility. Remember that is another key,
that's the overriding theme in the NFL. Right now, John,
So many positions give me versatility at a receiver who
can play X, who can move inside, has the ability
to run routes inside as well as the speed on
the outside. And I think you know again, I think
you have something if you pair those receivers together back
(27:50):
to your original question, and you're smart about how you're
going to utilize them in your scheme. This comes down,
by the way, last point, to make sure that you
are evaluating them right. You're getting your O coordinator and
your receiver coach communicating with your scouting department, John, to
let them know exactly what is expected out of each
position you are going to be acquiring. Because when you're
(28:12):
not doing that and scouts are just out there evaluating
just pure athletic ability and receiver ability, you may make
mistakes in putting together that stall of receivers that we
all know is vital, and you can get some very
good receivers later in the draft. We all know that
if you want to know how to manage two minutes
of crunch time football, I'm your man.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
But if you're wondering about a long term financial plan,
you should talk to Citizens.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
Hey, I can also talk long.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Care I'd like to learn about amliar team. Yes, I
knew I could help make sense of your money with Citizens.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
And I think in this class, especially the Day two class,
I think is very strong. And when I think about
trying to compment the Giants' current group, they just resigned
Darius Lane. He's kind of your vertical threat in the outside.
And to your point, Neighbors is a guy. He can
go on the slot, he can play outside, he can
do everything. I think if Wanda ramis in the last
year of his rookie contract, if you could add another
guy that I think could interchange with Neighbors so you
(29:04):
can successfully move him around make it more difficult for
teams to double him. I think if you can find
that type of guy, that could almost help Neighbors, because
it's going to make teams make it a little more
difficult for teams to focus on him if you're constantly
putting him in different areas of the field.
Speaker 3 (29:19):
When you have a game breaker as a receiver all
on Neighbors, it doesn't matter if he catches. It really
doesn't matter if he catches four balls or fourteen balls,
because if he's that type of receivers that has the
defense on their heels and they're worried about game planning,
and then when they get on the field, they're like,
you know, neighbors, neighbors, neighbors. Julio Jones, Julio Jones. I've
seen it time and again where defensive are all defenses
(29:39):
are all skewered, and they're all over the place because
they're worried. It just adds an element that you know
in the past some of the teams and you don't
like me probably saying that some of the teams like
what Howie has done in Philly. They do a really
good job by creating all of these sort of questions
on that receiver line, and then all of a sudden
people don't know who to truly cover. Someone's going to
be open.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
All right.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
I want to go back real quick to Edges. I
forgot to ask one follow upcause I think you had
a great answer about one of the guys would burst
in athleticism. They get a field if you see one
of those guys, but they don't have the production in
college that you're looking for.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
How do you try to.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Dig into that to figure out, all right, this has
them more to do with circumstance, how they used him
and we think we can get more out of him.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
In the pros.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
How much does a production or lack thereof impact How
you evaluate some of these guys in the edge class well.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
As I mentioned before, I think you know, really taking
it this way, take making sure you know what that
person is about as much as possible. That's important character,
knowing that they're going to work at their craft and
continue to develop if they're not a high productive group.
To your point, really digging in on why that is,
digging in on the scheme, digging in on there is
so much data out there right now that you can
(30:47):
dig in on that can glean certain information that you
can go back and then do a lot of adjusting
and views on video. On the subjective side, this is
what I'm talking about with augmentation. If you just blindly
projecting like I love this guy's athleticism, excuse me, and
I love his personality. He's only got four sacks, He'll
(31:08):
have fourteen for us. I think that's flying by the
seat of your pants. You really need to find out
why you need to find out the coaching scheme. Quite honestly,
you need to find out who has been coaching him
at that position, what is he lacking and is it
his repertoire and moves whatever it may be, there is
a reason that some of these guys aren't producing. It's
imperative to look the owner in the eye, the head
(31:29):
coach of course as a GM, and say this is
why this guy has the upside it is. I mean
it used to drive me bonkers, by the way, when
you would get a position coach could be a pass
rush guy or a d lion guy or a linebacker
guy saying I love this guy, he's going to be
an All Pro And you know that's that's a tough
projection just just by watching a guy who has limited production,
(31:51):
they have to produce man in the end, they have
to go you have to go back and watch him
on VIDs and you have to figure out why or
why not he hasn't been producing.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
We talk about the that of that upfield interior pass
rusher these days. Does that make the guard position, Thomas,
you think more important than it used to be seen
that some of the contrasts given out of guard I
think indicate teams are starting to value that position a
little bit more to protect the depth of that pocket
for a quarterback.
Speaker 3 (32:15):
Oh, there's no question about it. I mean, all these
great quarterbacks out there, Matt Ryan, including my own experience,
and when there's an interior pass rush and it's valid
and vital and quick and explosive, it it throws the
quarterbacks world upside down. I remember some of the quar
quarterbacks I've been around with Matt Ryan, but Tom Brady,
some of those guys, they can handle some of the
(32:36):
outside rush in a certain way right being you know,
there's a way to do that, but that stuff coming
up in the interior with legitimacy, with speed, with I
mean some of those guys who are three hundred plus
pounds who are running you know, four to seven fives
or four sixes whatever, they are even better. Sometimes those
are disruptive. So back to your point, that og that
O center, I mean, those guys are vital and back
(32:58):
in the day, we used to say pull those guys
late in the draft, midted to late in the draft,
or we can pull them in free agency late, don't
spend money on them completely. In my mind, one of
our best free agents was a center we took from
the Browns, and I think about that, and I think
about what he did for us, for Matt Ryan over
the years, and what I was for many many years
(33:19):
I was vehemently opposed to. I realized that interior is
so vital. There are some really good guards out in
this draft. I think there aren't a ton of them,
but there are projected tackles that could move into guard.
Remember that guard spot. There has to be an element
of nasty, tough, reactionary elements there that aren't just kind
of like, you know, hey, he can put his hand
(33:40):
down and I remember this is a funny story. Very quickly.
We drafted on offensive center guard one time, and I'm
for not to mention his name. People can figure it
out and deduce it. But loved the guy. And you
remember him telling me in the lunch room one time.
He said, Thomas, sometimes I just put my hand down
and I'm thinking about greener pastures. And I'm like, oh
my gosh, I love you, man, but don't think green
pastures on Sunday. That's a whole You do it the
(34:02):
rest of the week. I need your ass fired up,
ready to take someone's head off and So the point
is making sure that that's a well rounded position that
you're acquiring. And I think that's important moving forward.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
Alex Mac that pro bowler that you're brought in, really
really good player. How much has and this is this
final question on the data and scouting real quick, how
much has the on field tracking data that I'm sure
you guys have access to helped you in terms of
evaluation where we use that to depend on you know,
running the forty at the combine. But now we have
(34:34):
all this on field data of how fast guys run,
how fast guys come in out of their breaks. How
much does that data for you guys help augment the
way you see some of these players.
Speaker 3 (34:44):
Yeah, and I think it's an important thing. Right, we're projecting.
There are a lot of players that you don't really
have a legit forty four we're projecting, you know, as
we continue to grow, we're projecting other drills.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Right.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
I'm a big believer in the three cone. How we're projecting.
I mean these the way that the data is going
and being able to project and have numbers, legitimate numbers
through frame by frame analysis, I think to me is fascinating.
It is next waves we know that, we realize where
it is. My biggest point on all of this is
you have to have an open minded organization who is
(35:17):
willing to take that data and implement it. That's I
tell people all the time, three and a half plus
years in this business. I'm not claiming that I have
a PhD in it. What I do have a PhD
I think, or a growing understanding of, is the proper
implementation of the data that we have and not just
being afraid of that data and tucking it away and
you you know in your portfolio, utilizing it properly is
(35:41):
very important and that's where the league is going to
go over the next few years for sure, being comfortable
with how they are diagnosing and implementing the data.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Finally, final question, how do you tell teams to put
that data in proper context? Because that's the key to
all this, right, figuring out what the data means and
how you use it and how you should let it
influence the way you think about these players. Obviously, I'm
sure it's different for different data points, but how important
is understanding the proper context to use this data so
you are applying it properly. It could be perfect data
(36:12):
and great datam but if you're not applying it properly,
it can hurt you as much as it helps you.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
Yeah, that's that's exactly right. And I think that just
takes time, and that takes confidence that what you're utilizing
is not overriding all of your football expertise. Right. It's again,
it's about it's about perfectly that side by side, you know,
subjective and objective. And I will say one of the
things that I've realized with myself included when you're in
the football world and you're taking on data and you're
(36:39):
making decisions on this, you know, game time decision making
or roster management, roster optimization, and you see this is
the difference by using this will be a you know,
between eight percent and twelve percent difference. The football people
are like twelve percent, are you kidding me? I want
eighty nine or ninety two percent. It's not happening. And gentlemen,
(37:00):
if you if you can't die, differentiate between those smaller
percentages marginal gains, which we know are important and I
keep drilling that into my contemporaries heads. Marginal gains are vital.
Don't expect these massive increases, understand that there is proper
utilization and effectiveness and efficacy to the utilization of data
(37:22):
in those smaller percentage differences. And that's what I try
to continue to stress to people.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Yeah, I mean, I think I'll put it in a
layman terms, Right, you get an eighty on a test.
If you do ten percent better, you turn a B
minus into a B plus. Right, And in the long term,
that's that. It means something, It changes something. All right, Tom,
Before we say goodbye, tell the folks about what you're
doing at tchumor all the cool stuff. You guys put
out your Draft Guy for the first time this year,
which has been awesome. People should go check that out.
(37:49):
Tell about everything you guys are doing over there.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
Yeap Summer Sports dot com and we have so many
things going on. We have we have all kinds of
offerings we continue to offer on the B to B side,
So NFL NNC we're doing a lot of work in
the NC double A space, which ultimately helps the NFL
space and vice versa. That's great. We are also offering
at a number of different levels, you know, platforms to
manage both NFL and NC DOUBLEA and more appropriately, probably
(38:14):
and applicable to your your your listeners. We're working on
that consumer side diligently to continue to provide great information,
both appropriately subjective and objective information that tie into people.
And you know, we have people on our staff are
who are fantasy efficionados. Right, that's not my world, but
there's a lot of that going on. We love what
we did with our draft guide, so we're hoping everyone
(38:36):
checks it out and keep keep watching smer. There's a
lot to come.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
Yeah, just go to suomer sports dot com guys, and
you can just go through it, look at the data.
There's a bunch of links on top and you can
scroll find that draft guide again. It's really easy to navigate,
they guys. You guys did a great job. Put it
again the toimecause it really is easy. A lot of graphics.
They just very easy to navigate. And appreciate all the
hard work you guys are doing. Thanks so much of
the time.
Speaker 3 (38:59):
Man.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
We appreciate get it.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
Always appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Thanks man, And I can't wait to hook up to
kind of dig in more into the data analysis and
things like that. That's the Johns Total Podcast, brought to
you by citizens Official Bank of the Giants from the
Hackensack Mariney Health podcast studio, keep getting better, We'll see
you next time.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
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